You know, having fought a few Moghs in PvP, I am not really impressed. Every day I become more and more convinced that DHCs are no longer possible except for escorts and raiders. You can do it ... but your damage will be pitiful against anything but space whales.
....
I am going to agree with you.. I'm not fully sure when it happened(perhaps it was cruiser comms), but Beams really do seem to have overshadowed DHCs on anything except specialized strike craft/escorts.
Sure, you can run it with DHCs, but the real beauty of the Mogh is running it with the Anti-Proton and Assimilated weapon 2-sets. When loaded with Beam arrays it gives you the fury of FAW broadsides with the entire forward 270 degree firing arc - leaving only your aft shield facing as a blind spot.
(I compliment/compensate that with mines, eject warp plasma, and tractor beam while speed-tanking the ship with dyson defense armor(+turn) consoles and Strategic Maneuvering. Plasmonic Leech easily keeps weapons at full and the impact on other subsystems is obvious. The results are absolutely fantastic.. and brutal.)
That's kind of my thing though. If beams are better than DHC than what's the advantage of 5 3 layout. I mean broadsiding kinds makes it inconsequential. Anyways, I am still unconvinced that it is worth replacing my Vor'cha with Mogh.
Don't get me wrong. It makes sense for people to buy this ship to show support for KDF. The thing is that I have bought a bunch of KDF ships over the last few months. If. That isn't enough to persuade them then buying 1 more isn't going to do it either.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
That's kind of my thing though. If beams are better than DHC than what's the advantage of 5 3 layout. I mean broadsiding kinds makes it inconsequential. Anyways, I am still unconvinced that it is worth replacing my Vor'cha with Mogh.
Don't get me wrong. It makes sense for people to buy this ship to show support for KDF. The thing is that I have bought a bunch of KDF ships over the last few months. If. That isn't enough to persuade them then buying 1 more isn't going to do it either.
There's 3 key differences between the Fleet Vor'Cha and Fleet Mogh.
1. Vor'Cha turn rate of 10 vs 9 of the Mogh
2. F.Vor'Cha has the Lt TAC, Ens ENG stations while Mogh has Ens TAC but Lt ENG.
3. Mogh Lt Universal Station is an actual freedom of choice, unlike the false freedom the Lt Universal on the Fleet Vor'Cha has.
Both ships are perfectly viable if you go Cannons or Beams. The Mogh has the advantage of putting more weapons up front. Stuff that will make a difference more than a pitiful Turret in the rear, or a mine/torpedo in the rear that is only situational. Simply put, you can put more serious firepower up front with the Mogh/Avenger than the F.Vor'Cha. The F.Vor'Cha with the 4/4 layout is however a more balanced beamboat if you choose to do that route.
Anyways, most guys that play Battlecruisers want forward firepower. Whether they do that with whatever variation of Cannons or Beams is up to taste and playstyle. The difference is the Mogh can put more meaningful firepower forward than any other of the KDF's Battlecruisers.
The more potentially ENG friendly BOFF layout of the Mogh, if you use the Universal Station as ENG. Alot of people seem to disregard ENG skills, but I think ENG skills will greatly help push an offensive ship over the edge. You have more space to have more Emergency Power skills, Aux2Inertial Dampeners (with the associated DOFF, it's outstanding), RSP, ASIF, Eng Tm, etc. With the Fleet Vor'Cha, it's alot more cramped. If you choose to go Dual A2Batt, you can do it with the Mogh. But you don't have to, because with a Cmdr ENG and using the Universal Lt as ENG, you have ridiculous room for supporting ENG.
Lastly is the BOFF layout in relation to the Universal Lt stations that both ships have. The Fleet Vor'Cha is deceptive. Even in PVE, you NEED to use that station for SCI, because no Hazard Emitters is risky. The Mogh on the other hand already has a fixed Lt SCI station, Cmdr ENG, and LtCdr+Ens TAC. That covers the basics already, and the Lt Universal can be used in any of the 3 disciplines of TAC, SCI, or ENG, to support any of them equally well but not forsake any like the Fleet Vor'Cha will if you choose to use it outside SCI.
Anyways, the Mogh is more forward firepower friendly, turns well enough (though admittedly less than the Vor'Cha), and has a much more flexible BOFF layout.
I can understand if one doesn't want to switch from a tried and true ship like the Fleet Vor'Cha. It *IS* still a great Battlecruiser. But the Mogh gives you more forward firepower and a far friendlier BOFF station layout.
Cloned my Kui's looks onto a Orion TAC. Got the fleet modules waiting. I'm going to toss My
quad's on it, two DHC's, and 2 Single Cannon, 3 turrets aft. The ships is going to have the power to maintain quite a bit of engine power which will buff up the damage of the quad cannon. Run in a little turn improvement via module. Boff are pretty strait forward. Energy management is the key. Should end up witha good weapons power balance to maximize damage, while having a deep 'nuff bucket to grant respectable engine power for both additional movement speed which will increase the improved nimbleness from any RCS consoles (no more then 2) Slap in some appropriate armor. Pop a touch of additional engine power via console. Shields are last on the list for the energy budget. Aux power should be your pick up area to take advantage of some of those sci and end special abilities.
As a TAC captain I'm going to have a lot of extra DPS buffing abilities with several get the hell out of dodge or be a more difficult target effects. Abilities your usually only going to see on escorts and raiders. Should be rather interesting. Gives up a tiny little bit for the cloak over its fed counterparts. Might be worthwhile to grab science sensor jaming abilities on a DOFF.
Should be able to get a nice high sustained damage output. But its effectivness is going to depend on creating an agility advantage to keep that big forward firepower on target.
Do it right and escorts are going to seriously nice when you notice them. Regular cruisers are not going to like this ship....
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Far too much gushing about the bortasqu. Far too much. Maybe you can get 1 good alpha spike out of it and get really good damage from DHCs up front, but outside of the first target nothing else will stray in front of your very tiny cone of fire. And if you go with BA setup you're just not doing as much damage as a comprehensive DHC setup on a more nimble battlecruiser.
The thing about the new Mogh (and I speak from owning the avenger copy of it) is that you can put DHCs on it and KEEP them on target. You can switch from target to target quite easily and are very capable on the battlefield. The Bortas has to just sit there. It cannot turn. Even with A2Damp, RCS consoles, etc, it's a freaking tub, and THAT hurts its damage output.
The Mogh has massive hull hitpoints, good maneuverability, and good shield modifier. Altogether it is far more capable than the bortas. Bortas was the worst C-store purchase I made. It has its merits, but it's not a great ship. It's barely a good ship. It won't be top DPS and it won't do better than a Mogh or any more nimble battlecruiser will do. Hell the Neghvar outdoes the Bortas because of turn rate alone, and has nearly as much hull.
You have to know how to use the Bortasqu'.
First, you need to be a Tactical Captain.
Second, DBB's are your friend forget those cannons.
Third, between Cloak, the HoH'SuS as bait, and Subspace Snare it is not hard to get utterly devastating attacks even against Players.
Fourth, against NPC's who are slow and stupid you can utterly erase even big heavily armored and hulled structures and ships in a few brief seconds with the Auto Cannon. Fifth, the upgraded HoH'SuS can add a significant amount of additional damage and is a wonderful pest that prevents enemies from breaking combat.
Sixth, the new commands make your more maneuverable and you will not need to stick with the Weapons Power Aura just to keep your weapons power up.
Seventh, you can tank a massive amount of damage without sacrificing any killing power.
That'd be teh unyeilding and brutal monster that can't keep up with it's team and dies a lot without getting kills? The Bort's a PvE monster-but once it's up against real adversaries, it tends to be a whole lot of nothin' for anyone unfortunate enough to be teamed with one in arena, or cap'nsplode.
Watching a bortas get outmanuevered by an Odyssey in Kerrat is funny, but it's also very, very sad-in that all the possible potential firepower in the universe means jack squat because it's a powerhouse that can't get on target-or stay on target, can't evade incoming, and can't survive.
It only behaves as you point out if you are bad captain of the ship in question. Which if you are an Engineer you already have proven your inability. Unless for some reason you really want to make an utter tank but if you do that you will not be killing anything which begs what the point would be. (Mind you... I have seen a few Premades that CAN make use of that to wicked effect but it is rare)
I would say L2P. I love the Odyssey but they are my favorite prey in PvP outside of carriers for my Bortasqu' but I do NOT wallow slowly up upon them in plain sight and start a little turning war because that would be idiotic. Stalk your prey and kill them in on fell swoop. There is no need to even worry about their turn rate, they will not get that chance.
Beams seem better only due to recent developments.
1) AtB + Dem + Bfaw+ marion is still very effective.
2) Currently Bfaw suppossedly doesnt drain weapons power.
3) Overcapping currently only works for beams, not cannons.
Got c-store and fleet versions.
Pretty niffty ship!
Still figuring out best load out (see link in my signature) but I think this could be a decent build.
I'm used to running with KHG 2piece which offsets crew loss. Without it, crew is just about always all dead at the end of a mission. Hoping the A2D will fix that up tonight when I test it.
Using cannons atm. Was using an A2B build which kept TS1, CSV1 and APB2 up full time, but sci heals and eng hull heals suck, having to time aux susbsystem with heals or TT1/ET1.
New build in sig drops A2B so loose either patterns or cannon uptime
Not sure that running cannon/patterns CD reducing doffs are worth the desync in timings.
5xDBB build sounds interesting, though cannons can get all weapons firing forward. Beam boat the 5 fore seems almost a waste, then the problem of what to do with 2 rear slots.
Been flying the mogh since it was released. Nice ship. But I wish I didn't get the cstore version. Fleet is good enough.
The console is da suxx
Yeah pretty much is. BUT if your target dies while this thing is enroute it continues dropping pods as it changes targets and the DPS can really stack up.
PRO TIP:
Transformers in ISE and KASE. Sit beside them (looking at their narrowest cross section) and fire it. If you've played these enough you know high yeild torps kind of get stuck on their side and slowly make their way "up" the transformer before finally working their way into the centre and explode.
The DDDS does the same, but as it lingers it's spamming out those pods. After 10seconds odd you get a constant stream of mine explosions.
I went from about 8k-12k dps (very respectable for an engineer) up to over 40k dps!!! Takes them from 50% to 0 in like 5 seconds.
So if you can make it's flight time longer, it's REALLY good.
(now I'm wondering if it can be launched rearwards like the bio-neural warhead does and takes a long turning circle...)
I switched my LT Uni to a Tac Boff and am liking the increased dmg from my second copy of CRF and TS. Still tanks well running the single Aux2ID. Still loving this ship. The only thing I can't kill with it is Avengers. lol
Comments
I am going to agree with you.. I'm not fully sure when it happened(perhaps it was cruiser comms), but Beams really do seem to have overshadowed DHCs on anything except specialized strike craft/escorts.
Sure, you can run it with DHCs, but the real beauty of the Mogh is running it with the Anti-Proton and Assimilated weapon 2-sets. When loaded with Beam arrays it gives you the fury of FAW broadsides with the entire forward 270 degree firing arc - leaving only your aft shield facing as a blind spot.
(I compliment/compensate that with mines, eject warp plasma, and tractor beam while speed-tanking the ship with dyson defense armor(+turn) consoles and Strategic Maneuvering. Plasmonic Leech easily keeps weapons at full and the impact on other subsystems is obvious. The results are absolutely fantastic.. and brutal.)
Don't get me wrong. It makes sense for people to buy this ship to show support for KDF. The thing is that I have bought a bunch of KDF ships over the last few months. If. That isn't enough to persuade them then buying 1 more isn't going to do it either.
- Judge Aaron Satie
There's 3 key differences between the Fleet Vor'Cha and Fleet Mogh.
1. Vor'Cha turn rate of 10 vs 9 of the Mogh
2. F.Vor'Cha has the Lt TAC, Ens ENG stations while Mogh has Ens TAC but Lt ENG.
3. Mogh Lt Universal Station is an actual freedom of choice, unlike the false freedom the Lt Universal on the Fleet Vor'Cha has.
Both ships are perfectly viable if you go Cannons or Beams. The Mogh has the advantage of putting more weapons up front. Stuff that will make a difference more than a pitiful Turret in the rear, or a mine/torpedo in the rear that is only situational. Simply put, you can put more serious firepower up front with the Mogh/Avenger than the F.Vor'Cha. The F.Vor'Cha with the 4/4 layout is however a more balanced beamboat if you choose to do that route.
Anyways, most guys that play Battlecruisers want forward firepower. Whether they do that with whatever variation of Cannons or Beams is up to taste and playstyle. The difference is the Mogh can put more meaningful firepower forward than any other of the KDF's Battlecruisers.
The more potentially ENG friendly BOFF layout of the Mogh, if you use the Universal Station as ENG. Alot of people seem to disregard ENG skills, but I think ENG skills will greatly help push an offensive ship over the edge. You have more space to have more Emergency Power skills, Aux2Inertial Dampeners (with the associated DOFF, it's outstanding), RSP, ASIF, Eng Tm, etc. With the Fleet Vor'Cha, it's alot more cramped. If you choose to go Dual A2Batt, you can do it with the Mogh. But you don't have to, because with a Cmdr ENG and using the Universal Lt as ENG, you have ridiculous room for supporting ENG.
Lastly is the BOFF layout in relation to the Universal Lt stations that both ships have. The Fleet Vor'Cha is deceptive. Even in PVE, you NEED to use that station for SCI, because no Hazard Emitters is risky. The Mogh on the other hand already has a fixed Lt SCI station, Cmdr ENG, and LtCdr+Ens TAC. That covers the basics already, and the Lt Universal can be used in any of the 3 disciplines of TAC, SCI, or ENG, to support any of them equally well but not forsake any like the Fleet Vor'Cha will if you choose to use it outside SCI.
Anyways, the Mogh is more forward firepower friendly, turns well enough (though admittedly less than the Vor'Cha), and has a much more flexible BOFF layout.
I can understand if one doesn't want to switch from a tried and true ship like the Fleet Vor'Cha. It *IS* still a great Battlecruiser. But the Mogh gives you more forward firepower and a far friendlier BOFF station layout.
I'm sure your DPS is great, but as Kahless said, "a petaQ with high system mastery is still a petaQ." (Well, he should have said it...!)
quad's on it, two DHC's, and 2 Single Cannon, 3 turrets aft. The ships is going to have the power to maintain quite a bit of engine power which will buff up the damage of the quad cannon. Run in a little turn improvement via module. Boff are pretty strait forward. Energy management is the key. Should end up witha good weapons power balance to maximize damage, while having a deep 'nuff bucket to grant respectable engine power for both additional movement speed which will increase the improved nimbleness from any RCS consoles (no more then 2) Slap in some appropriate armor. Pop a touch of additional engine power via console. Shields are last on the list for the energy budget. Aux power should be your pick up area to take advantage of some of those sci and end special abilities.
As a TAC captain I'm going to have a lot of extra DPS buffing abilities with several get the hell out of dodge or be a more difficult target effects. Abilities your usually only going to see on escorts and raiders. Should be rather interesting. Gives up a tiny little bit for the cloak over its fed counterparts. Might be worthwhile to grab science sensor jaming abilities on a DOFF.
Should be able to get a nice high sustained damage output. But its effectivness is going to depend on creating an agility advantage to keep that big forward firepower on target.
Do it right and escorts are going to seriously nice when you notice them. Regular cruisers are not going to like this ship....
I want to say Warp Core Engineer.
If not that, try Matter-Antimatter Specialist.
I know for sure it's either an engineering or operations DOFF that you can only have one of equipped.
Matter-Anti-Matter Specialist
Green quality:
+30 resist against all energy weapons
+4 seconds to Aux2Damp duration
Very useful DOFF. Rare or Very Rare quality versions are damn expensive, but honestly, Green quality is even good to go.
You have to know how to use the Bortasqu'.
First, you need to be a Tactical Captain.
Second, DBB's are your friend forget those cannons.
Third, between Cloak, the HoH'SuS as bait, and Subspace Snare it is not hard to get utterly devastating attacks even against Players.
Fourth, against NPC's who are slow and stupid you can utterly erase even big heavily armored and hulled structures and ships in a few brief seconds with the Auto Cannon. Fifth, the upgraded HoH'SuS can add a significant amount of additional damage and is a wonderful pest that prevents enemies from breaking combat.
Sixth, the new commands make your more maneuverable and you will not need to stick with the Weapons Power Aura just to keep your weapons power up.
Seventh, you can tank a massive amount of damage without sacrificing any killing power.
It only behaves as you point out if you are bad captain of the ship in question. Which if you are an Engineer you already have proven your inability. Unless for some reason you really want to make an utter tank but if you do that you will not be killing anything which begs what the point would be. (Mind you... I have seen a few Premades that CAN make use of that to wicked effect but it is rare)
I would say L2P. I love the Odyssey but they are my favorite prey in PvP outside of carriers for my Bortasqu' but I do NOT wallow slowly up upon them in plain sight and start a little turning war because that would be idiotic. Stalk your prey and kill them in on fell swoop. There is no need to even worry about their turn rate, they will not get that chance.
Yeah, that does sound tasty, I'll have to keep an eye out for one in my price range. Thanks.
I'm sure your DPS is great, but as Kahless said, "a petaQ with high system mastery is still a petaQ." (Well, he should have said it...!)
1) AtB + Dem + Bfaw+ marion is still very effective.
2) Currently Bfaw suppossedly doesnt drain weapons power.
3) Overcapping currently only works for beams, not cannons.
R.I.P
Pretty niffty ship!
Still figuring out best load out (see link in my signature) but I think this could be a decent build.
I'm used to running with KHG 2piece which offsets crew loss. Without it, crew is just about always all dead at the end of a mission. Hoping the A2D will fix that up tonight when I test it.
Using cannons atm. Was using an A2B build which kept TS1, CSV1 and APB2 up full time, but sci heals and eng hull heals suck, having to time aux susbsystem with heals or TT1/ET1.
New build in sig drops A2B so loose either patterns or cannon uptime
Not sure that running cannon/patterns CD reducing doffs are worth the desync in timings.
5xDBB build sounds interesting, though cannons can get all weapons firing forward. Beam boat the 5 fore seems almost a waste, then the problem of what to do with 2 rear slots.
Yeah pretty much is. BUT if your target dies while this thing is enroute it continues dropping pods as it changes targets and the DPS can really stack up.
PRO TIP:
Transformers in ISE and KASE. Sit beside them (looking at their narrowest cross section) and fire it. If you've played these enough you know high yeild torps kind of get stuck on their side and slowly make their way "up" the transformer before finally working their way into the centre and explode.
The DDDS does the same, but as it lingers it's spamming out those pods. After 10seconds odd you get a constant stream of mine explosions.
I went from about 8k-12k dps (very respectable for an engineer) up to over 40k dps!!! Takes them from 50% to 0 in like 5 seconds.
So if you can make it's flight time longer, it's REALLY good.
(now I'm wondering if it can be launched rearwards like the bio-neural warhead does and takes a long turning circle...)