Having Torps on a double tap actually makes sense, me and a few others use it, such as Emo.
But now that it is being nerfed, back to the drawing board
An Aux2Batt back to the Drawing board would be devastating to cruisers who try and keep up with DPScorts.
It's not an easy build to use properly, not only that unless you are very lucky in B'tran or fairly EC loaded, Aux2Batt builds can be fairly Expensive.
Thou shall not Nerf Cruiser builds!
Im not a lover of Aux2Batt, My Sci ships use completely different builds, My tac ships use other builds.
And until they making Tanking relevant in things like PvE Aux2Batt better stay cause its the only thing keeping my Galaxy flying.
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The aux to bat lovers are cute. I'll pretty much leave it at that... anyone that doesn't understand how these doffs are broken... really isn't ever going to get it. I am not saying they are destroying the game... neither did being able to load a second copy of a tac buff though. Just because something can be countered or isn't always the best way to play doesn't mean it isn't contrary to the game mechanics.
Hey the current dev that seems be doing anything close to balance fixes agrees... I think everyone enjoying the tech doff hax right now should be thankful Cryptic doesn't allow there devs to follow anything through... tech doffs where saved by having no one really paying any attention to them after they where dropped.
Remove or correct them now and incur the wrath of the PvE kids using tech doffs to ra*e borg. lol
Does it get any more insulting or arrogant?
Just because you like PvP, everyone else who doesn't isn't a kid.
PvP players shouldn't be surprised to be considered as arrogant by everyone else.
PvP is just a small part of STO, insulting 97% of the playerbase isn't a good start to get a agreement.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
DDIS, a2b, if used correctly, can be very op. Do you remember when you said cruisers can't spike? I remember the outcome of that match up we had very well. That ship I used was a2b powered.
In premades, the dkora pre LoR was a wrecking ball (still is). Cruisers shouldn't be able to do that much spike. That is all thanks to a2b.
Like Husanak said, it is op, but the issue is, Captain PVE Kirks would go mental if any adjustments were made
Just to give another example, having rf3, omega1 & 1 tac team on global due to a2b on escorts is definately op. 3 doffs replacing the function of equivilant 8 doffs (3 ap doffs 3 cannon doffs, 2 tac team) without any chance role, come on.....
i was very specifically talking about fed pattern beam array or single cannon cruisers, that cant spike. i was expecting you would show up in some fed faction beam boat and try to prove me wrong, but you brought a doubletaping dkora, fairly out of bounds of what i was talking about.
the dkora, and the better in every way monbosh, without AtB could have set up double taps with just a LTC tac. it would be a bit below a double BO3 in power, but still. it didn't mater what was using double taps, cruisers or escorts, doubletaps specifically were the problem. is every ship that can double tap op then? that would mean nearly every ship was op.
none of the actual escorts that can run AtB and be a beter ship then the bug, still. for cruisers, it buff thier tac ability substantially, at great cost of thier survivability, and nearly all of thier team support ability. creating ships still inferior to escorts in firepower, unless you put a doubletap build on them of course :rolleyes:
and then theres the jack of all trade destroyers, that without AtB builds might as well be called the good for nothings. they cant keep up with escorts or hit as hard. its like they were made with a hole only an AtB build can fill, and it does to make them compeditive.
you can call it op all you want. what you can create with it tends to break even with the purpose built ships, being used for their intended purpose.
I personally don't use A2B and don't have very much experience.
But from an "outsiders" standpoint, it seems rather OP to me in the sense that for very little cost you get to essentially double all of your BO abilities or are allowed to run different ones yet get the effect of having 2 of them.
A Cruiser can essentially have 2x FAW + 2x Omega + 2x BO, and then EPtE + EPtS + RSP + Extend + whatever, all being changed/with a negligible CD.
That's not possible for a non-A2B ship, and all the A2B ship has to do is give up 3 DOffs, 2 Lt Slots (which can be readily handled due to having 'copies' of everything of other tiers), and Aux power (which is easily gained back [though, granted, not as much] via Leech + Warp Core, EPtA [totally affordable on an A2B build], Batts, or just sacrificing it all together and having your team cover your heals while you simply use a Polarize/Tractor combo).
1 guy with a2b faw able to everyone in the other team (non healers) alone simply by spamming faw is perfectly normal and not op.Those who died a nOObs and a2b is not op plus crusiers should be more tanky and do more damage than escorts because that's the role of tanky ships.
lol star trek online or romulans online because I no longer know what game is now.
i was very specifically talking about fed pattern beam array or single cannon cruisers, that cant spike. i was expecting you would show up in some fed faction beam boat and try to prove me wrong, but you brought a doubletaping dkora, fairly out of bounds of what i was talking about.
the dkora, and the better in every way monbosh, without AtB could have set up double taps with just a LTC tac. it would be a bit below a double BO3 in power, but still. it didn't mater what was using double taps, cruisers or escorts, doubletaps specifically were the problem. is every ship that can double tap op then? that would mean nearly every ship was op.
none of the actual escorts that can run AtB and be a beter ship then the bug, still. for cruisers, it buff thier tac ability substantially, at great cost of thier survivability, and nearly all of thier team support ability. creating ships still inferior to escorts in firepower, unless you put a doubletap build on them of course :rolleyes:
and then theres the jack of all trade destroyers, that without AtB builds might as well be called the good for nothings. they cant keep up with escorts or hit as hard. its like they were made with a hole only an AtB build can fill, and it does to make them compeditive.
you can call it op all you want. what you can create with it tends to break even with the purpose built ships, being used for their intended purpose.
Oh come on..... You said cruisers can't do spike, period. Double tap? Get off your high horse will ya. I had bo1 & 2 not double tapping. They were gap fillers for sustained burst damage whilst rf was down. Rapid fire 2 with dem was the thing that did the damage with repulsors finishing your hull off. Tet glider with flow cap consoles was also ripping your shields off all the time.
Clearly you missed the point of the ship. Overwhelm everything at once with sustained burst making it more than suppression.
As for the survivability being screwed over by a2b, how did I "survive" 2 v 1 in that encounter? So the line about survivability being compromised is incorrect (i apologise to p2wsucks for being wrong on this in the past about a2b)
As for the vaccum cleaner being better, not really. The battle mode is extremely under rated.
By the way, I have all these ships and play with them a lot. God knows how many respects a week I go through to eek the last bit out of my builds.
The temp destroyer without a2b being useless? Now your just starting to show lack of knowledge on the ship.
I am more than happy to school you again on the benefits of a destroyer without a2b and double tap, again 2 v 1 like last time.
Aux2Batt is most certainly NOT OP, at least in PvP. As someone who has flown an A2B cruiser constantly for the past 3 months, I can tell you that I feel downright vulnerable when cruising through Ker'rat.
The above equals many long hours of grinding, both in Ker'rat and ESTFs. The 4 VR Mark 12 Phase Mods alone ran close to 80 million EC - nearly enough to buy an entire "OP" ship like a bug or galor. The weapons. The consoles. The shield/def/eng/warp core. All add up to a tremendous amount of personal investment in the search for the "OP" cruiser build.
But what does all of that hard earned tech get me? Double-tap insta-vaped, repeatedly, in Ker'rat last night by the tag-team of Cyrox and Jonie. Worse still, I KNEW it was coming - we had been talking smack in zone chat prior to each engagement so I fully expected to be attacked at any moment. And while I did manage to pop poor Iv'aan a couple of times in a few 3 v 1 scenarios, the reality is that I was pretty much target practice to these guys.
Again, the above represents a MASSIVE investment into the Aux2Batt play style, and yet I have no counter to the high-spike damage crowd. I tried slotting a Mark XI fleet neutronium and they killed me just as quick. Ditto the Adapted MACO shield which, while better at preventing spikes and double-taps, can't hold a candle to the Elite Res B in an extended run-and-gun battle, especially vs. multiple targets.
Note: I'm not saying my cruiser is a flying death trap - far from it. I've pasted more than my share of middling-level klinks and rommies, including some fairly big names. And I even got lucky and took out Cyrox once 1 v 1. But against elite players with high spike capability, I'm usually a sitting duck and I know it.
I supposed I could just clear out all of my universal consoles and slot nothing but fleet neutroniums and field gens - but then I'd be crippling my already anemic DPS output in order to create a "zombie" cruiser that can take it but can't dish it back out.
In the end, there really is no good solution for making a cruiser competitive against higher-caliber PvP players, even with Aux2Batt driving insane levels of power through every subsystem. It simply isn't enough, and certainly nothing anyone needs to be nerfing anytime soon.
RCK - a.k.a. Jacob Lightener, Captain of the U.S.S. Wyoming FAHCR
Aux2Batt is most certainly NOT OP, at least in PvP. As someone who has flown an A2B cruiser constantly for the past 3 months, I can tell you that I feel downright vulnerable when cruising through Ker'rat.
The above equals many long hours of grinding, both in Ker'rat and ESTFs. The 4 VR Mark 12 Phase Mods alone ran close to 80 million EC - nearly enough to buy an entire "OP" ship like a bug or galor. The weapons. The consoles. The shield/def/eng/warp core. All add up to a tremendous amount of personal investment in the search for the "OP" cruiser build.
But what does all of that hard earned tech get me? Double-tap insta-vaped, repeatedly, in Ker'rat last night by the tag-team of Cyrox and Jonie. Worse still, I KNEW it was coming - we had been talking smack in zone chat prior to each engagement so I fully expected to be attacked at any moment. And while I did manage to pop poor Iv'aan a couple of times in a few 3 v 1 scenarios, the reality is that I was pretty much target practice to these guys.
Again, the above represents a MASSIVE investment into the Aux2Batt play style, and yet I have no counter to the high-spike damage crowd. I tried slotting a Mark XI fleet neutronium and they killed me just as quick. Ditto the Adapted MACO shield which, while better at preventing spikes and double-taps, can't hold a candle to the Elite Res B in an extended run-and-gun battle, especially vs. multiple targets.
Note: I'm not saying my cruiser is a flying death trap - far from it. I've pasted more than my share of middling-level klinks and rommies, including some fairly big names. And I even got lucky and took out Cyrox once 1 v 1. But against elite players with high spike capability, I'm usually a sitting duck and I know it.
I supposed I could just clear out all of my universal consoles and slot nothing but fleet neutroniums and field gens - but then I'd be crippling my already anemic DPS output in order to create a "zombie" cruiser that can take it but can't dish it back out.
In the end, there really is no good solution for making a cruiser competitive against higher-caliber PvP players, even with Aux2Batt driving insane levels of power through every subsystem. It simply isn't enough, and certainly nothing anyone needs to be nerfing anytime soon.
RCK - a.k.a. Jacob Lightener, Captain of the U.S.S. Wyoming FAHCR
I have to agree with RCK. I've been flying a cruiser since launch and have been "perfecting" tac cruiser builds ever since. In PvE, its a monster with A2B but in PvP simply a SPAM sweeper against anyone who know how to tank. It quite a stark difference. So no amount of doubling of boff powers is going to change that. There is a reason why most elite players do not fly A2B cruisers in PvP premades. So...NO...it is not OP for cruisers at least. It does help bridge the gap a bit between escorts and cruisers in DPS but we all know in PvP it is not about DPS but more about spike damage.
In conclusion, in PvE...it may seem OP but certainly not in PvP.
Aux2Batt is most certainly NOT OP, at least in PvP. As someone who has flown an A2B cruiser constantly for the past 3 months, I can tell you that I feel downright vulnerable when cruising through Ker'rat.
Well, I think I know how you can boost things a bunch - drop those two Flow Caps and get some fleet Neuts instead - the only thing those two consoles are working for on your build is the polaron proc- which honestly doesn't happen often at all. It's really not worth investing two console slots into that.
Also, note that you have no hull heals besides ET - no hull resist and no hull heals = one very squishy cruiser, especially in the high-bleedthrough meta.
I have to agree with RCK. I've been flying a cruiser since launch and have been "perfecting" tac cruiser builds ever since. In PvE, its a monster with A2B but in PvP simply a SPAM sweeper against anyone who know how to tank. It quite a stark difference. So no amount of doubling of boff powers is going to change that. There is a reason why most elite players do not fly A2B cruisers in PvP premades. So...NO...it is not OP for cruisers at least. It does help bridge the gap a bit between escorts and cruisers in DPS but we all know in PvP it is not about DPS but more about spike damage.
In conclusion, in PvE...it may seem OP but certainly not in PvP.
I might add, my above comments are directed squarely at the tacscort crowd. I just had a nice 2v1 with a pair of Jemmie Dreads. One was spamming me with bug pets while the other tried to cheez-whiz me into the afterlife.
Net result: I killed one and seriously wounded the other before the timer went off in Ker'rat.
So...vs. elite escorts with high spike damage, not a good option. But vs. lesser escorts or other cruisers, A2B can be a fun way to frustrate the hell out of the klinks.
Was just in kerrat and there was a jem HEC a2b build. I had tractor, theta, warp poo, grav pulse, web mines on me 100% of the time, and he flew so fast I couldn't keep up. I could clear the theta and warp poo a few times, but soon hazards, PH, and APO were all three on cool down.
It's just TRIBBLE that one can a stream of warp plasma up 100% of the time.
Aux2Batt is most certainly NOT OP, at least in PvP. As someone who has flown an A2B cruiser constantly for the past 3 months, I can tell you that I feel downright vulnerable when cruising through Ker'rat.
The above equals many long hours of grinding, both in Ker'rat and ESTFs. The 4 VR Mark 12 Phase Mods alone ran close to 80 million EC - nearly enough to buy an entire "OP" ship like a bug or galor. The weapons. The consoles. The shield/def/eng/warp core. All add up to a tremendous amount of personal investment in the search for the "OP" cruiser build.
But what does all of that hard earned tech get me? Double-tap insta-vaped, repeatedly, in Ker'rat last night by the tag-team of Cyrox and Jonie. Worse still, I KNEW it was coming - we had been talking smack in zone chat prior to each engagement so I fully expected to be attacked at any moment. And while I did manage to pop poor Iv'aan a couple of times in a few 3 v 1 scenarios, the reality is that I was pretty much target practice to these guys.
Again, the above represents a MASSIVE investment into the Aux2Batt play style, and yet I have no counter to the high-spike damage crowd. I tried slotting a Mark XI fleet neutronium and they killed me just as quick. Ditto the Adapted MACO shield which, while better at preventing spikes and double-taps, can't hold a candle to the Elite Res B in an extended run-and-gun battle, especially vs. multiple targets.
Note: I'm not saying my cruiser is a flying death trap - far from it. I've pasted more than my share of middling-level klinks and rommies, including some fairly big names. And I even got lucky and took out Cyrox once 1 v 1. But against elite players with high spike capability, I'm usually a sitting duck and I know it.
I supposed I could just clear out all of my universal consoles and slot nothing but fleet neutroniums and field gens - but then I'd be crippling my already anemic DPS output in order to create a "zombie" cruiser that can take it but can't dish it back out.
In the end, there really is no good solution for making a cruiser competitive against higher-caliber PvP players, even with Aux2Batt driving insane levels of power through every subsystem. It simply isn't enough, and certainly nothing anyone needs to be nerfing anytime soon.
RCK - a.k.a. Jacob Lightener, Captain of the U.S.S. Wyoming FAHCR
Okay... So what you are saying is that Aux2Batt isn't OP because it took 3 ships to kill you with at least two of them using double tap and you still managed to kill one of them before they insta-vaped you??
Was just in kerrat and there was a jem HEC a2b build. I had tractor, theta, warp poo, grav pulse, web mines on me 100% of the time, and he flew so fast I couldn't keep up. I could clear the theta and warp poo a few times, but soon hazards, PH, and APO were all three on cool down.
It's just TRIBBLE that one can a stream of warp plasma up 100% of the time.
how does one beat that?
Buy a better P2W ship than the one that just killed you?
Okay... So what you are saying is that Aux2Batt isn't OP because it took 3 ships to kill you with at least two of them using double tap and you still managed to kill one of them before they insta-vaped you??
Ummm....yes?
Seriously, though, there are specific attack modes that defeat even an "OP" A2B build like mine. First, there are those damned Elachi weapons which, when paired with a BO Doff and perhaps DEM, go right through my shields and trash my hull in seconds. Per my post in question, the only solution is to slot armor...and lose DPS output as a result of the various universals (Borg, ZP, Nukara, Leech) being removed.
Then there are the double-taps. Not much anyone can do about those. However, I have survived them through the combination of quick reflexes to hit EM and RSP while also popping every hull buff and heal (SFM, ET) I have. But 4 out of 5 times, a seasoned DT-player will get his kill with me.
Note: Perhaps I'm being unrealistic, but I'd feel better if I at least had a fighting chance in some of those situations. As it stands, I'm simply unsatisfied with winning over middling-OK players. I want to compete at elite levels (or at least survive more often then not), and A2B doesn't seem to be getting me there.
Well, I think I know how you can boost things a bunch - drop those two Flow Caps and get some fleet Neuts instead - the only thing those two consoles are working for on your build is the polaron proc- which honestly doesn't happen often at all. It's really not worth investing two console slots into that.
Also, note that you have no hull heals besides ET - no hull resist and no hull heals = one very squishy cruiser, especially in the high-bleedthrough meta.
Well, they're also boosting his Leech as well...though, the [Pla] one instead of another [HuH] one is kind of curious. It doesn't say, but have to figure he's running [AMP] on that core - and figure he's trying to maximize the uptime on full AMP. It's not going to be enough drain on its own to really make a difference (it's no 8x Polaron Turret/Siphon/Leech w/250-300+ Flow Caps trollboat)...but in conjunction with other folks, it could add up.
His Energy Resistance is 12.7% and his Kinetic Resistance is 6.9%. Before you take into account his APO1 and PH1.
With APO1, he's looking at ~22.7% Energy Resistance and ~18.2% Kinetic Resistance.
With PH1, he's looking at ~33.5% Energy Resistance and ~30.3% Kinetic Resistance.
With APO1 and PH1, he's looking at ~39% Energy Resistance and ~36.5% Kinetic Resistance.
He's also got the BFI for some additional Kinetic Resist if he sees he's about to get hit hard.
That he's running PH1, TSS2 and no HE - well, have to figure he's sporting a Keel'el for cleanses. Which normally works well in conjunction with the HE, but it's still going to work well in conjunction with his TT/ET.
For the hull heals, well - he's got the 2pc Borg diaper - the single [HuH] (still curious it's not 2) - and the ET. Yeah, it's risky given the amount of bleed folks can run out there - but with folks tossing him heals...hrmm...
Wouldn't be surprised if he was also running the Inspirational Leader Trait (the AtB Trait!), which when it procs would give him the equivalent of 35 VR Mk XII Consoles for all his skills...which in turn would improve...well, everything - damage, damage resist, etc, etc, etc.
He's sporting the T4 Rom Passive - Sensor Targeting Assault, so that's going to help with folks not targeting him for a moment...and with the FAW....well, it's going to help with many folks not targeting him for a moment - as long as they're not under the plac immunity from everybody else using Sensor Targeting Assault with FAW.
Speaking of passives, he also went with the Aux Power Config - Defense instead of Offense...boosting his Energy Resist, Hull Health, and Shield Power (thus damage reduction and regen rate). He also made the wise decision (imho) of skipping the 751.4 for the Superior Shield Repair.
So uh...not really all that squishy...
Still, I'd switch the TSS2 for HE2...drop the [Pla] to pick up a second [HuH]...and would have gone with a [SCap] core instead of a [WCap] core...
...but yeah, it's not as squishy (imho) as it may look at first glance.
----=====This is my opinion you don't have to listen and no one else has to read them these "OPINIONS" are based on my exploits and my learning other people will have their opinions and that's fine just don't knock my way of doing things thanks=====---- :cool:
Aux2Batt is most certainly NOT OP, at least in PvP. As someone who has flown an A2B cruiser constantly for the past 3 months, I can tell you that I feel downright vulnerable when cruising through Ker'rat.
The above equals many long hours of grinding, both in Ker'rat and ESTFs. The 4 VR Mark 12 Phase Mods alone ran close to 80 million EC - nearly enough to buy an entire "OP" ship like a bug or galor. The weapons. The consoles. The shield/def/eng/warp core. All add up to a tremendous amount of personal investment in the search for the "OP" cruiser build.
But what does all of that hard earned tech get me? Double-tap insta-vaped, repeatedly, in Ker'rat last night by the tag-team of Cyrox and Jonie. Worse still, I KNEW it was coming - we had been talking smack in zone chat prior to each engagement so I fully expected to be attacked at any moment. And while I did manage to pop poor Iv'aan a couple of times in a few 3 v 1 scenarios, the reality is that I was pretty much target practice to these guys.
Again, the above represents a MASSIVE investment into the Aux2Batt play style, and yet I have no counter to the high-spike damage crowd. I tried slotting a Mark XI fleet neutronium and they killed me just as quick. Ditto the Adapted MACO shield which, while better at preventing spikes and double-taps, can't hold a candle to the Elite Res B in an extended run-and-gun battle, especially vs. multiple targets.
Note: I'm not saying my cruiser is a flying death trap - far from it. I've pasted more than my share of middling-level klinks and rommies, including some fairly big names. And I even got lucky and took out Cyrox once 1 v 1. But against elite players with high spike capability, I'm usually a sitting duck and I know it.
I supposed I could just clear out all of my universal consoles and slot nothing but fleet neutroniums and field gens - but then I'd be crippling my already anemic DPS output in order to create a "zombie" cruiser that can take it but can't dish it back out.
In the end, there really is no good solution for making a cruiser competitive against higher-caliber PvP players, even with Aux2Batt driving insane levels of power through every subsystem. It simply isn't enough, and certainly nothing anyone needs to be nerfing anytime soon.
RCK - a.k.a. Jacob Lightener, Captain of the U.S.S. Wyoming FAHCR
It sounds like me you where doing just fine... anyway try that change... you don't need 2 copies of aux to bat for what your doing... put a EWP in there instead... you will have darn close to a constant stream behind you... RSP 1 is good enough... if the drop from 2 to 1 bothers you get a RSP doff. Add a hazards... if your in kerrat with all the borg around how could you not find having no hazards beyond annoying. Also drop one of the flows for a Neut wtih turn on it.
I changed your spec around a little bit as well... the armour chances on tier 4 will give you a bit more resist... I put points into aux power at tier 5... 8 more aux power is going to help you one heck of a lot more then 4% extra kinetic resist. Keep your aux power up actualy aux to bat in fact gives you a pretty good power spike to everything else. Also if you have a nice high base aux power when you hazards before aux to batting it will much improve the proc... it will also boost the strength of your borg hull procs.
I also put points into battary which I noticed you hadin't... one of the advantages of the cruiser is the 4 device slots... if your going to slot a 3 bats you might as well be getting 20s out of them instead of 10....
I saved you points on things that are never going to help you like Core Eff... which is completely pointless past 3 points for anyone... 3 points will give you some extra power if you get hit with a target sub system or something... really though with 6 points in insulators you should be fine anyway. With the amount of power we all have no putting 9 points in instead of 3 would give you perhaps 1-2 points of extra power at most in total.
Oh come on..... You said cruisers can't do spike, period. Double tap? Get off your high horse will ya. I had bo1 & 2 not double tapping. They were gap fillers for sustained burst damage whilst rf was down. Rapid fire 2 with dem was the thing that did the damage with repulsors finishing your hull off. Tet glider with flow cap consoles was also ripping your shields off all the time.
Clearly you missed the point of the ship. Overwhelm everything at once with sustained burst making it more than suppression.
As for the survivability being screwed over by a2b, how did I "survive" 2 v 1 in that encounter? So the line about survivability being compromised is incorrect (i apologise to p2wsucks for being wrong on this in the past about a2b)
As for the vaccum cleaner being better, not really. The battle mode is extremely under rated.
By the way, I have all these ships and play with them a lot. God knows how many respects a week I go through to eek the last bit out of my builds.
The temp destroyer without a2b being useless? Now your just starting to show lack of knowledge on the ship.
I am more than happy to school you again on the benefits of a destroyer without a2b and double tap, again 2 v 1 like last time.
i always distinguish between cruisers and battle cruisers when i speak. and i said that at the time. i could spike with battle cruisers, they can run cannons and more easily DBBs for BO. i wouldn't say all cruisers cant spike, because for a long TRIBBLE time before that ive spiked with certain ones myself.
tac cruisers, AtB or not, have inferior survivability compared to cruisers used to support, obviously. thats what you trade for DPS, AtB cruisers trade thier aux and use of AtS too, but thats not as critical as it used to be with all the band aides. nowadays thanks to all the passives and shield power creep even tac cruisers can hold off multiple people for an extended period, i do it all the time myself. these ships still dont have close to the survivability of something like renim's ody though.
that was hardly a 2v1, he was watching, and when he did interfere he didn't put up much fight. what i happened to be in at the time of the challenge, my ambushers with its .83 shield mod with terrible spike soak, was hardly the ideal thing to dual against a tac cruiser. being a tac cruiser user my self, i know all too well that a 1v1 is were those ships excel the most. dueling someone, to try to prove something, and bringing a tac cruiser is silly, they are the strongest 1v1 outside of a bug, especially something like what you brought. maybe i should bring my monbosh against your dkora sometime though.
a ship with a COM and LT tac are down 1 tac skill from more classic escorts, but its still difficult to run anything but 4 cannon builds on those though with out sacrificing uptime on things. im talking more about ships that dont have more then a COM tac, and maybe an ENS too. thats when things perform poorly as escorts without AtB, and with it lose most of their downsides when they do. base turn rate is still subpar though, and takes lots of console space to fix. at least warbirds like that can cloak during their tac skill downtime, and be built for max spike so they dont have to worry about rapid cycling.
AtB is still not op, when it mostly just helps non beam boat cruisers and destroyers be worth an escort slot on a team. they arent making the already good specialized ships better at what they already do best. the good ships remain good, and AtB creates more good ships. without it there would be even less ship diversity in the ques
i always distinguish between cruisers and battle cruisers when i speak. and i said that at the time. i could spike with battle cruisers, they can run cannons and more easily DBBs for BO.
Hi DDIS,
I'm trying to stay out of the fray on this one but I just want to add a few points.
Keep in mind the build you're talking about (Naz's Dkora) was running Single Cannons at the time. Not DHCs. This build was a premade capable build that was a terror to be on the opposite side of.
We also have a guy in our fleet, one of the old school pandas, he's a hardcore heavy-ship enthusiast.
If there is a heavy ship in this game, he has owned it and flown it and used it in premade PvP matches, not just PUG arena.
Everything from single cannon + BO Odyssey, Bortas, Fleet AC-R, Dkora, Monbosh, The ADV Hapaax, DDeridex, Tal Shair BC, etc, etc. Many of which were/are run as offensive ships with Tac captains.
(Yes, that's right, Single Cannon Tac/Odyssey. I've watched teams ignore him, and then halfway through the match realize is putting out a metric TRIBBLE ton of damage and eating their hulls like the cookie monster).
Hell, he has 3 different characters in Recluses - one of each Career.
He runs Singles a lot, with DEM & Tet Glider. He ships are effective in PUG arena, half-mades, and full premades.
He loves his single cannons, and continually proves most people wrong about them. Yes, even now in the heal-overload universe we play in.
So when you say these things about cruisers, battle cruisers or otherwise - I promise you there is a guy out there doing exactly what people keep saying can't be done with these ships - even when their base turn rates are 5 or 6.
And remember, it's what you set it at - not what it is. @3 levels, 100/15 and 15/15 would both get the +6.
Remember, 1-3 is +18 skill...4-6 is +10 skill...7-9 is +5 skill. That's where the appearance of diminishing returns will kick in. Going from 1 to 2 is taking you from 18 to 36, while going from 7 to 8 is taking you from 89 to 94.
Which, given the Efficient Captain trait (+30)...taking 3 levels and the trait is the same as taking 6 levels (but having those points to spend elsewhere).
Add in the 6 levels in the respective Performance Skill, and that 15 is going to be 40.
I still can't believe they made the change to allow folks to drop to 15 from 25 with LoR.
I mean, look at that...you can run 10 less power but only run with 8 less power because of it. That's the same as running a Mk VII +Power console (if you run two at 15, that's two consoles!)...(yes, this is making fun of the consoles).
To be fair, A2B + EWP is one of the places where the combination is probably overpowered.
You can, literally, stack EWP on top of itself.
As in the first EWPs duration will not have expired by the time your CD is ready to go.
Thought for the thread:
I like what A2B does for some of the oddball ships or tac cruisers, but I do recognize that it is in fact too powerful in many circumstances.
3 DOFFs, basically allow you to replicate the function of...
3x AP DOFFs
2x XTeam DOFFs
3x Cannon or Beam CD redux DOFFs
All at the same time.
It also allows for CD on things that have no other direct method outside of Photonic officer to reduce their cooldown on, such as EWP, RSP, ES, TS, HYT, DEM, etc, etc.
Why should 3 DOFFs & Two Powers allow you to effectively duplicate all of your other BOFF stations (10 other powers)?
I'm not saying it needs to be nerfed, but it's very clear at this point in the game that it can turn battle cruisers with turn rates of 9 to 12 into super heavy escorts with nearly as much or equal to firepower, with significant mitigation and utility advantages.
Also as we get other power creep, we see issues with this power as well - such as ships with RSP 3 and Purple RSP DOFFs having RSP on an effectively 60s CD.
The Single Cannons side discussion is another interesting one.
Most places list the base damage as 67, but somewhere along the way it got +5...the base is actually 72. Doesn't seem like much, until you start taking a look at some of the other numbers involved while considering SCs vs. BAs.
Okay, everybody and their neighbor's dog will do the /facepaw over the difference in drain mechanics and what somebody using Beams is looking at for overcap vs. somebody with Cannons (yeah, the Cannon guy can usually stop at 135 while the Beam guy can be looking at 180+). This means being able to put more power elsewhere - meaning the shields are a bit better, the ship is a bit zippier, and anything requiring Aux is a bit...er...Auxier!
So let's look at some other things.
Beams have a 4/5 firing cycle.
Cannons have a 4/3 firing cycle.
Beams might have a 1.39:1 DPV ratio over Cannons, but Cannons have a 1.2:1 DPS ratio over Beams.
But it's about spike!
Well, work in some DEM and Tet Glider...things that go per shot, not per cycle and then consider how long it takes for the Beams to land those four shots and how long it takes the Cannons to land those four shots.
But wait, the Cannons sport a 180 arc and the Beams sport a 250 arc!
Did you miss all the improvements to turn? Sure, the Cruiser is not going to keep up with the Bug zipping around it. But what kind of damage are the Beams doing to it anyway? Get somebody to park that Bug for you and unload with the Cannons into it. Besides, you're likely to run into that other Cruiser that is sporting Beams that's going to moving like a snail compared to you because it's got all that power overcapped into Weapons that you've got in Engines...
But wait, it's not 8x Single Cannons vs. 8x Beam Arrays...you're looking at 4x Cannons and 4x Turrets. Those Turrets are still sporting their wee 45 base damage.
We're still looking at Dem/Tet Glider, right? Still got the 15s thing going on?
8x Beams in 15s: 96 possible shots (if they all hit)
4x Cannons/4x Turrets in 15s: 160 possible shots (if they all hit)
Those are rough numbers, activation cycles/delays and all that...have to be honest about that.
Oh, there's this as well...considering certain procs are per cycle, can't forget to look at that.
15s still, right?
Beams: 3 cycles
Cannons: 5 cycles
Two more opportunities for the Cannons to proc in a 15s period (per weapon) than Beams.
Hrmmm, don't forget that CRF1 provides a larger damage boost to a single target than FAW1 does as well...
...that being said, Cannons can't clear spam (mines, targetable torps, pets) from the screen like one can with FAW.
Beams definitely have their place - their role - even outside of epeen stroking in PvE...
...but then again, aren't they boosting GW/TR? Can't folks drop Singularities as well? Don't many folks fire of Torp Spreads or even carry CSV?
And the most damning thing against Beams? What's the most damning thing against Beams?
Aren't they what VD's usually sporting? He's always doing things wrong...Beams must be bad. :P
I picked up XII Purple ACCx3 Phaser single cannons for 150k each off of the Exchange and when used on my Aux2Batt Fleet Excelsior it wrecks shop. Im glad people are sleeping on the single cannons, I picked up 4 XII VR ACC X3 of every energy type and spent less than 5 mil EC. Single cannons can rip when used correctly.
As to AtB it makes a standard or fleet Cruiser ship effective again, improves Battle Cruisers to be slower fatter escorts but makes most P2W/lockbox ships far more effective than either which my opinion points back the P2W moniker.
Shall they nerf because some players have the resources to maximize power creep and purchase the best vessel currently?
Seems unfair to those whom do not spend the cash, play the exchange markets like E-trade brokers or grind endlessly for that P2W advantage.
I do not think it needs to be nerfed if its only the spenders/ uber grinders whom can make it appear OP thanks to the many power creep/latest lockbox/latest OP (Cryptic needs the sales) factions ingame.
For every highend PvPer in game there are more middle of the road PvPers trying to also have fun but getting tired of chasing the next "thing" only to see it nerfed when thier betters finally decide its OP after being used for months, if not years.
Virus, please could you run those numbers on the quads? I'm just interested to see what sort of horrible DEM/tet glider procs you might get from CRF with quads and either SC or DCs. I would do it myself but I have no idea about the firing cycle of quads and the number of shots per cycle on them. All I know is it's "meant" to be twice the shots of DCs.
Note: Yes I know [dmg]x4 ain't gonna hit a thing unless it's tractored to oblivion with mines and in warp poo...wait a sec.
I wonder why no 1 is saying nerf photonic officer 3.
Because the amount it speeds up cooldowns by is pretty poor even with stacking every last thing you can. That and very few people have ever seen this elusive beast. It roams on the backs of photonic science officers which are a rare sight in the fields of STO.
If you're interested here is Mimey discussing it and us coming to the ultimate conclusion that 1 A2B with 3 doffs is better if you have specific gear you want to run and in many circumstances.
I'm trying to stay out of the fray on this one but I just want to add a few points.
Keep in mind the build you're talking about (Naz's Dkora) was running Single Cannons at the time. Not DHCs. This build was a premade capable build that was a terror to be on the opposite side of.
We also have a guy in our fleet, one of the old school pandas, he's a hardcore heavy-ship enthusiast.
If there is a heavy ship in this game, he has owned it and flown it and used it in premade PvP matches, not just PUG arena.
Everything from single cannon + BO Odyssey, Bortas, Fleet AC-R, Dkora, Monbosh, The ADV Hapaax, DDeridex, Tal Shair BC, etc, etc. Many of which were/are run as offensive ships with Tac captains.
(Yes, that's right, Single Cannon Tac/Odyssey. I've watched teams ignore him, and then halfway through the match realize is putting out a metric TRIBBLE ton of damage and eating their hulls like the cookie monster).
Hell, he has 3 different characters in Recluses - one of each Career.
He runs Singles a lot, with DEM & Tet Glider. He ships are effective in PUG arena, half-mades, and full premades.
He loves his single cannons, and continually proves most people wrong about them. Yes, even now in the heal-overload universe we play in.
So when you say these things about cruisers, battle cruisers or otherwise - I promise you there is a guy out there doing exactly what people keep saying can't be done with these ships - even when their base turn rates are 5 or 6.
yes i recall the single cannons. those weren't as big of a problem as the 2 BOs. it sounds like that the guy your talking about and me would get along, i do the same thing he does. i dont have an ody, but i have ran single cannon galaxy class, and singles on all other fed cruisers i have.i just haven't included a DEM doff, and tried stacking BOs to fire off as soon as possible. true double taps need 2 DBB i know, so there isn't a weapon cooldown between.
DEM and CRF working together got stealth fixed when i pointed out they weren't working together about a year ago, DEM wasn't doing anything when CRF was on, DEM was only doing damage when the canons were firing normally. needless to say, it was very noticeable after they got fixed, a single cannon cruiser with CRF and DEM now can remove half an escort's or sci ship's hull in 10 seconds, unless the target or his allies reacts before that. its impressive damage, and at the right time can be whats needed to focus down a hardened target, but so often its damage thats lost in the ether of cross heals.
wile FAW had no accuracy, single builds were much better at dealing damage then beams on a cruiser. now they are about equal again. pretty often my single cannon excelsior have had bigger damage numbers then FAW boats, with all that direct hull damage.
my latest single cannon boat is a d'deridex, aside from the monbosh its the most deadly tac cruiser ive been able to put together. a little bit of spike from BO1, APO and CRF and DEM3 plus TBR for more hull damage, or VM to make the guy momentarily helpless have made it my best single boat to date. with 4 mine turn consoles, its not even that bad with DHC, unless im fighting nothing but escorts. its also the most fragile tac crusier ive built, but warbirds can get away with that pretty easily with their sing jump and BC.
I remember when this game 1st launched and you needed beams to strip shields and Torps to kill hulls. Where your cannons or Torps would just nip away at shields and you needed a good DBB to break through and then finish with cannons or Torps. Thoes fond days of usefulness in Torps and beams that did what beams are suppost to do.
Comments
An Aux2Batt back to the Drawing board would be devastating to cruisers who try and keep up with DPScorts.
It's not an easy build to use properly, not only that unless you are very lucky in B'tran or fairly EC loaded, Aux2Batt builds can be fairly Expensive.
Thou shall not Nerf Cruiser builds!
Im not a lover of Aux2Batt, My Sci ships use completely different builds, My tac ships use other builds.
And until they making Tanking relevant in things like PvE Aux2Batt better stay cause its the only thing keeping my Galaxy flying.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Just because you like PvP, everyone else who doesn't isn't a kid.
PvP players shouldn't be surprised to be considered as arrogant by everyone else.
PvP is just a small part of STO, insulting 97% of the playerbase isn't a good start to get a agreement.
i was very specifically talking about fed pattern beam array or single cannon cruisers, that cant spike. i was expecting you would show up in some fed faction beam boat and try to prove me wrong, but you brought a doubletaping dkora, fairly out of bounds of what i was talking about.
the dkora, and the better in every way monbosh, without AtB could have set up double taps with just a LTC tac. it would be a bit below a double BO3 in power, but still. it didn't mater what was using double taps, cruisers or escorts, doubletaps specifically were the problem. is every ship that can double tap op then? that would mean nearly every ship was op.
none of the actual escorts that can run AtB and be a beter ship then the bug, still. for cruisers, it buff thier tac ability substantially, at great cost of thier survivability, and nearly all of thier team support ability. creating ships still inferior to escorts in firepower, unless you put a doubletap build on them of course :rolleyes:
and then theres the jack of all trade destroyers, that without AtB builds might as well be called the good for nothings. they cant keep up with escorts or hit as hard. its like they were made with a hole only an AtB build can fill, and it does to make them compeditive.
you can call it op all you want. what you can create with it tends to break even with the purpose built ships, being used for their intended purpose.
But from an "outsiders" standpoint, it seems rather OP to me in the sense that for very little cost you get to essentially double all of your BO abilities or are allowed to run different ones yet get the effect of having 2 of them.
A Cruiser can essentially have 2x FAW + 2x Omega + 2x BO, and then EPtE + EPtS + RSP + Extend + whatever, all being changed/with a negligible CD.
That's not possible for a non-A2B ship, and all the A2B ship has to do is give up 3 DOffs, 2 Lt Slots (which can be readily handled due to having 'copies' of everything of other tiers), and Aux power (which is easily gained back [though, granted, not as much] via Leech + Warp Core, EPtA [totally affordable on an A2B build], Batts, or just sacrificing it all together and having your team cover your heals while you simply use a Polarize/Tractor combo).
lol star trek online or romulans online because I no longer know what game is now.
Oh come on..... You said cruisers can't do spike, period. Double tap? Get off your high horse will ya. I had bo1 & 2 not double tapping. They were gap fillers for sustained burst damage whilst rf was down. Rapid fire 2 with dem was the thing that did the damage with repulsors finishing your hull off. Tet glider with flow cap consoles was also ripping your shields off all the time.
Clearly you missed the point of the ship. Overwhelm everything at once with sustained burst making it more than suppression.
As for the survivability being screwed over by a2b, how did I "survive" 2 v 1 in that encounter? So the line about survivability being compromised is incorrect (i apologise to p2wsucks for being wrong on this in the past about a2b)
As for the vaccum cleaner being better, not really. The battle mode is extremely under rated.
By the way, I have all these ships and play with them a lot. God knows how many respects a week I go through to eek the last bit out of my builds.
The temp destroyer without a2b being useless? Now your just starting to show lack of knowledge on the ship.
I am more than happy to school you again on the benefits of a destroyer without a2b and double tap, again 2 v 1 like last time.
Consider the following build:
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=rcktacfahcrevs0_0
The above equals many long hours of grinding, both in Ker'rat and ESTFs. The 4 VR Mark 12 Phase Mods alone ran close to 80 million EC - nearly enough to buy an entire "OP" ship like a bug or galor. The weapons. The consoles. The shield/def/eng/warp core. All add up to a tremendous amount of personal investment in the search for the "OP" cruiser build.
But what does all of that hard earned tech get me? Double-tap insta-vaped, repeatedly, in Ker'rat last night by the tag-team of Cyrox and Jonie. Worse still, I KNEW it was coming - we had been talking smack in zone chat prior to each engagement so I fully expected to be attacked at any moment. And while I did manage to pop poor Iv'aan a couple of times in a few 3 v 1 scenarios, the reality is that I was pretty much target practice to these guys.
Again, the above represents a MASSIVE investment into the Aux2Batt play style, and yet I have no counter to the high-spike damage crowd. I tried slotting a Mark XI fleet neutronium and they killed me just as quick. Ditto the Adapted MACO shield which, while better at preventing spikes and double-taps, can't hold a candle to the Elite Res B in an extended run-and-gun battle, especially vs. multiple targets.
Note: I'm not saying my cruiser is a flying death trap - far from it. I've pasted more than my share of middling-level klinks and rommies, including some fairly big names. And I even got lucky and took out Cyrox once 1 v 1. But against elite players with high spike capability, I'm usually a sitting duck and I know it.
I supposed I could just clear out all of my universal consoles and slot nothing but fleet neutroniums and field gens - but then I'd be crippling my already anemic DPS output in order to create a "zombie" cruiser that can take it but can't dish it back out.
In the end, there really is no good solution for making a cruiser competitive against higher-caliber PvP players, even with Aux2Batt driving insane levels of power through every subsystem. It simply isn't enough, and certainly nothing anyone needs to be nerfing anytime soon.
RCK - a.k.a. Jacob Lightener, Captain of the U.S.S. Wyoming FAHCR
I have to agree with RCK. I've been flying a cruiser since launch and have been "perfecting" tac cruiser builds ever since. In PvE, its a monster with A2B but in PvP simply a SPAM sweeper against anyone who know how to tank. It quite a stark difference. So no amount of doubling of boff powers is going to change that. There is a reason why most elite players do not fly A2B cruisers in PvP premades. So...NO...it is not OP for cruisers at least. It does help bridge the gap a bit between escorts and cruisers in DPS but we all know in PvP it is not about DPS but more about spike damage.
In conclusion, in PvE...it may seem OP but certainly not in PvP.
Well, I think I know how you can boost things a bunch - drop those two Flow Caps and get some fleet Neuts instead - the only thing those two consoles are working for on your build is the polaron proc- which honestly doesn't happen often at all. It's really not worth investing two console slots into that.
Also, note that you have no hull heals besides ET - no hull resist and no hull heals = one very squishy cruiser, especially in the high-bleedthrough meta.
I might add, my above comments are directed squarely at the tacscort crowd. I just had a nice 2v1 with a pair of Jemmie Dreads. One was spamming me with bug pets while the other tried to cheez-whiz me into the afterlife.
Net result: I killed one and seriously wounded the other before the timer went off in Ker'rat.
So...vs. elite escorts with high spike damage, not a good option. But vs. lesser escorts or other cruisers, A2B can be a fun way to frustrate the hell out of the klinks.
RCK
It's just TRIBBLE that one can a stream of warp plasma up 100% of the time.
how does one beat that?
Okay... So what you are saying is that Aux2Batt isn't OP because it took 3 ships to kill you with at least two of them using double tap and you still managed to kill one of them before they insta-vaped you??
≡/\≡
Buy a better P2W ship than the one that just killed you?
Stack 2 ApO with Doffs for the lowered CD?
Dont measure effectiveness on Ker'rat 1v1's?
Get help from another ship?
R.I.P
Ummm....yes?
Seriously, though, there are specific attack modes that defeat even an "OP" A2B build like mine. First, there are those damned Elachi weapons which, when paired with a BO Doff and perhaps DEM, go right through my shields and trash my hull in seconds. Per my post in question, the only solution is to slot armor...and lose DPS output as a result of the various universals (Borg, ZP, Nukara, Leech) being removed.
Then there are the double-taps. Not much anyone can do about those. However, I have survived them through the combination of quick reflexes to hit EM and RSP while also popping every hull buff and heal (SFM, ET) I have. But 4 out of 5 times, a seasoned DT-player will get his kill with me.
Note: Perhaps I'm being unrealistic, but I'd feel better if I at least had a fighting chance in some of those situations. As it stands, I'm simply unsatisfied with winning over middling-OK players. I want to compete at elite levels (or at least survive more often then not), and A2B doesn't seem to be getting me there.
RCK
Well, they're also boosting his Leech as well...though, the [Pla] one instead of another [HuH] one is kind of curious. It doesn't say, but have to figure he's running [AMP] on that core - and figure he's trying to maximize the uptime on full AMP. It's not going to be enough drain on its own to really make a difference (it's no 8x Polaron Turret/Siphon/Leech w/250-300+ Flow Caps trollboat)...but in conjunction with other folks, it could add up.
His Energy Resistance is 12.7% and his Kinetic Resistance is 6.9%. Before you take into account his APO1 and PH1.
With APO1, he's looking at ~22.7% Energy Resistance and ~18.2% Kinetic Resistance.
With PH1, he's looking at ~33.5% Energy Resistance and ~30.3% Kinetic Resistance.
With APO1 and PH1, he's looking at ~39% Energy Resistance and ~36.5% Kinetic Resistance.
He's also got the BFI for some additional Kinetic Resist if he sees he's about to get hit hard.
That he's running PH1, TSS2 and no HE - well, have to figure he's sporting a Keel'el for cleanses. Which normally works well in conjunction with the HE, but it's still going to work well in conjunction with his TT/ET.
For the hull heals, well - he's got the 2pc Borg diaper - the single [HuH] (still curious it's not 2) - and the ET. Yeah, it's risky given the amount of bleed folks can run out there - but with folks tossing him heals...hrmm...
Wouldn't be surprised if he was also running the Inspirational Leader Trait (the AtB Trait!), which when it procs would give him the equivalent of 35 VR Mk XII Consoles for all his skills...which in turn would improve...well, everything - damage, damage resist, etc, etc, etc.
He's sporting the T4 Rom Passive - Sensor Targeting Assault, so that's going to help with folks not targeting him for a moment...and with the FAW....well, it's going to help with many folks not targeting him for a moment - as long as they're not under the plac immunity from everybody else using Sensor Targeting Assault with FAW.
Speaking of passives, he also went with the Aux Power Config - Defense instead of Offense...boosting his Energy Resist, Hull Health, and Shield Power (thus damage reduction and regen rate). He also made the wise decision (imho) of skipping the 751.4 for the Superior Shield Repair.
So uh...not really all that squishy...
Still, I'd switch the TSS2 for HE2...drop the [Pla] to pick up a second [HuH]...and would have gone with a [SCap] core instead of a [WCap] core...
...but yeah, it's not as squishy (imho) as it may look at first glance.
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=rckracfix_0
It sounds like me you where doing just fine... anyway try that change... you don't need 2 copies of aux to bat for what your doing... put a EWP in there instead... you will have darn close to a constant stream behind you... RSP 1 is good enough... if the drop from 2 to 1 bothers you get a RSP doff. Add a hazards... if your in kerrat with all the borg around how could you not find having no hazards beyond annoying. Also drop one of the flows for a Neut wtih turn on it.
I changed your spec around a little bit as well... the armour chances on tier 4 will give you a bit more resist... I put points into aux power at tier 5... 8 more aux power is going to help you one heck of a lot more then 4% extra kinetic resist. Keep your aux power up actualy aux to bat in fact gives you a pretty good power spike to everything else. Also if you have a nice high base aux power when you hazards before aux to batting it will much improve the proc... it will also boost the strength of your borg hull procs.
I also put points into battary which I noticed you hadin't... one of the advantages of the cruiser is the 4 device slots... if your going to slot a 3 bats you might as well be getting 20s out of them instead of 10....
I saved you points on things that are never going to help you like Core Eff... which is completely pointless past 3 points for anyone... 3 points will give you some extra power if you get hit with a target sub system or something... really though with 6 points in insulators you should be fine anyway. With the amount of power we all have no putting 9 points in instead of 3 would give you perhaps 1-2 points of extra power at most in total.
i always distinguish between cruisers and battle cruisers when i speak. and i said that at the time. i could spike with battle cruisers, they can run cannons and more easily DBBs for BO. i wouldn't say all cruisers cant spike, because for a long TRIBBLE time before that ive spiked with certain ones myself.
tac cruisers, AtB or not, have inferior survivability compared to cruisers used to support, obviously. thats what you trade for DPS, AtB cruisers trade thier aux and use of AtS too, but thats not as critical as it used to be with all the band aides. nowadays thanks to all the passives and shield power creep even tac cruisers can hold off multiple people for an extended period, i do it all the time myself. these ships still dont have close to the survivability of something like renim's ody though.
that was hardly a 2v1, he was watching, and when he did interfere he didn't put up much fight. what i happened to be in at the time of the challenge, my ambushers with its .83 shield mod with terrible spike soak, was hardly the ideal thing to dual against a tac cruiser. being a tac cruiser user my self, i know all too well that a 1v1 is were those ships excel the most. dueling someone, to try to prove something, and bringing a tac cruiser is silly, they are the strongest 1v1 outside of a bug, especially something like what you brought. maybe i should bring my monbosh against your dkora sometime though.
a ship with a COM and LT tac are down 1 tac skill from more classic escorts, but its still difficult to run anything but 4 cannon builds on those though with out sacrificing uptime on things. im talking more about ships that dont have more then a COM tac, and maybe an ENS too. thats when things perform poorly as escorts without AtB, and with it lose most of their downsides when they do. base turn rate is still subpar though, and takes lots of console space to fix. at least warbirds like that can cloak during their tac skill downtime, and be built for max spike so they dont have to worry about rapid cycling.
AtB is still not op, when it mostly just helps non beam boat cruisers and destroyers be worth an escort slot on a team. they arent making the already good specialized ships better at what they already do best. the good ships remain good, and AtB creates more good ships. without it there would be even less ship diversity in the ques
Hi DDIS,
I'm trying to stay out of the fray on this one but I just want to add a few points.
Keep in mind the build you're talking about (Naz's Dkora) was running Single Cannons at the time. Not DHCs. This build was a premade capable build that was a terror to be on the opposite side of.
We also have a guy in our fleet, one of the old school pandas, he's a hardcore heavy-ship enthusiast.
If there is a heavy ship in this game, he has owned it and flown it and used it in premade PvP matches, not just PUG arena.
Everything from single cannon + BO Odyssey, Bortas, Fleet AC-R, Dkora, Monbosh, The ADV Hapaax, DDeridex, Tal Shair BC, etc, etc. Many of which were/are run as offensive ships with Tac captains.
(Yes, that's right, Single Cannon Tac/Odyssey. I've watched teams ignore him, and then halfway through the match realize is putting out a metric TRIBBLE ton of damage and eating their hulls like the cookie monster).
Hell, he has 3 different characters in Recluses - one of each Career.
He runs Singles a lot, with DEM & Tet Glider. He ships are effective in PUG arena, half-mades, and full premades.
He loves his single cannons, and continually proves most people wrong about them. Yes, even now in the heal-overload universe we play in.
So when you say these things about cruisers, battle cruisers or otherwise - I promise you there is a guy out there doing exactly what people keep saying can't be done with these ships - even when their base turn rates are 5 or 6.
@3 levels (54)
15 - +6
25 - +5
35 - +4
45 - +3
55 - +2
65 - +1
75 - +0
@6 levels (84)
15 - +9
25 - +7
35 - +6
45 - +4
55 - +3
65 - +1
75 - +0
@9 levels (99)
15 - +11
25 - +9
35 - +7
45 - +5
55 - +3
65 - +1
75 - +0
And remember, it's what you set it at - not what it is. @3 levels, 100/15 and 15/15 would both get the +6.
Remember, 1-3 is +18 skill...4-6 is +10 skill...7-9 is +5 skill. That's where the appearance of diminishing returns will kick in. Going from 1 to 2 is taking you from 18 to 36, while going from 7 to 8 is taking you from 89 to 94.
Which, given the Efficient Captain trait (+30)...taking 3 levels and the trait is the same as taking 6 levels (but having those points to spend elsewhere).
Personally though, I like 6 levels.
@6 levels (84) w/ Efficient Captain
15 - +12
25 - +10
35 - +8
45 - +6
55 - +4
65 - +2
75 - +0
Actually, this is what I'm usually looking at:
@6 level Efficiency, @6 levels Potential, Efficient Captain, Theorist
15 - +17
25 - +15
35 - +13
45 - +11
55 - +8
65 - +6
75 - +4
85 - +4
95 - +4
100 - +4
Add in the 6 levels in the respective Performance Skill, and that 15 is going to be 40.
I still can't believe they made the change to allow folks to drop to 15 from 25 with LoR.
I mean, look at that...you can run 10 less power but only run with 8 less power because of it. That's the same as running a Mk VII +Power console (if you run two at 15, that's two consoles!)...(yes, this is making fun of the consoles).
Note: the above would not have been possible without the fine work done by lordhavelock - I suggest everybody check out his Ship Power Guide & Calculator thread: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=532731
To be fair, A2B + EWP is one of the places where the combination is probably overpowered.
You can, literally, stack EWP on top of itself.
As in the first EWPs duration will not have expired by the time your CD is ready to go.
Thought for the thread:
I like what A2B does for some of the oddball ships or tac cruisers, but I do recognize that it is in fact too powerful in many circumstances.
3 DOFFs, basically allow you to replicate the function of...
3x AP DOFFs
2x XTeam DOFFs
3x Cannon or Beam CD redux DOFFs
All at the same time.
It also allows for CD on things that have no other direct method outside of Photonic officer to reduce their cooldown on, such as EWP, RSP, ES, TS, HYT, DEM, etc, etc.
Why should 3 DOFFs & Two Powers allow you to effectively duplicate all of your other BOFF stations (10 other powers)?
I'm not saying it needs to be nerfed, but it's very clear at this point in the game that it can turn battle cruisers with turn rates of 9 to 12 into super heavy escorts with nearly as much or equal to firepower, with significant mitigation and utility advantages.
Also as we get other power creep, we see issues with this power as well - such as ships with RSP 3 and Purple RSP DOFFs having RSP on an effectively 60s CD.
Most places list the base damage as 67, but somewhere along the way it got +5...the base is actually 72. Doesn't seem like much, until you start taking a look at some of the other numbers involved while considering SCs vs. BAs.
Okay, everybody and their neighbor's dog will do the /facepaw over the difference in drain mechanics and what somebody using Beams is looking at for overcap vs. somebody with Cannons (yeah, the Cannon guy can usually stop at 135 while the Beam guy can be looking at 180+). This means being able to put more power elsewhere - meaning the shields are a bit better, the ship is a bit zippier, and anything requiring Aux is a bit...er...Auxier!
So let's look at some other things.
Beams have a 4/5 firing cycle.
Cannons have a 4/3 firing cycle.
15s of firing? 12 Beam Shots. 20 Cannon Shots.
Cannons Base: 72 DPV, 96 DPS
Beams Base: 100 DPV, 80 DPS
Beams might have a 1.39:1 DPV ratio over Cannons, but Cannons have a 1.2:1 DPS ratio over Beams.
But it's about spike!
Well, work in some DEM and Tet Glider...things that go per shot, not per cycle and then consider how long it takes for the Beams to land those four shots and how long it takes the Cannons to land those four shots.
But wait, the Cannons sport a 180 arc and the Beams sport a 250 arc!
Did you miss all the improvements to turn? Sure, the Cruiser is not going to keep up with the Bug zipping around it. But what kind of damage are the Beams doing to it anyway? Get somebody to park that Bug for you and unload with the Cannons into it. Besides, you're likely to run into that other Cruiser that is sporting Beams that's going to moving like a snail compared to you because it's got all that power overcapped into Weapons that you've got in Engines...
But wait, it's not 8x Single Cannons vs. 8x Beam Arrays...you're looking at 4x Cannons and 4x Turrets. Those Turrets are still sporting their wee 45 base damage.
We're still looking at Dem/Tet Glider, right? Still got the 15s thing going on?
8x Beams in 15s: 96 possible shots (if they all hit)
4x Cannons/4x Turrets in 15s: 160 possible shots (if they all hit)
Those are rough numbers, activation cycles/delays and all that...have to be honest about that.
Oh, there's this as well...considering certain procs are per cycle, can't forget to look at that.
15s still, right?
Beams: 3 cycles
Cannons: 5 cycles
Two more opportunities for the Cannons to proc in a 15s period (per weapon) than Beams.
Hrmmm, don't forget that CRF1 provides a larger damage boost to a single target than FAW1 does as well...
...that being said, Cannons can't clear spam (mines, targetable torps, pets) from the screen like one can with FAW.
Beams definitely have their place - their role - even outside of epeen stroking in PvE...
...but then again, aren't they boosting GW/TR? Can't folks drop Singularities as well? Don't many folks fire of Torp Spreads or even carry CSV?
And the most damning thing against Beams? What's the most damning thing against Beams?
Aren't they what VD's usually sporting? He's always doing things wrong...Beams must be bad. :P
As to AtB it makes a standard or fleet Cruiser ship effective again, improves Battle Cruisers to be slower fatter escorts but makes most P2W/lockbox ships far more effective than either which my opinion points back the P2W moniker.
Shall they nerf because some players have the resources to maximize power creep and purchase the best vessel currently?
Seems unfair to those whom do not spend the cash, play the exchange markets like E-trade brokers or grind endlessly for that P2W advantage.
I do not think it needs to be nerfed if its only the spenders/ uber grinders whom can make it appear OP thanks to the many power creep/latest lockbox/latest OP (Cryptic needs the sales) factions ingame.
For every highend PvPer in game there are more middle of the road PvPers trying to also have fun but getting tired of chasing the next "thing" only to see it nerfed when thier betters finally decide its OP after being used for months, if not years.
R.I.P
Note: Yes I know [dmg]x4 ain't gonna hit a thing unless it's tractored to oblivion with mines and in warp poo...wait a sec.
Because the amount it speeds up cooldowns by is pretty poor even with stacking every last thing you can. That and very few people have ever seen this elusive beast. It roams on the backs of photonic science officers which are a rare sight in the fields of STO.
If you're interested here is Mimey discussing it and us coming to the ultimate conclusion that 1 A2B with 3 doffs is better if you have specific gear you want to run and in many circumstances.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
but thats just me i guess.
Do you even Science Bro?
yes i recall the single cannons. those weren't as big of a problem as the 2 BOs. it sounds like that the guy your talking about and me would get along, i do the same thing he does. i dont have an ody, but i have ran single cannon galaxy class, and singles on all other fed cruisers i have.i just haven't included a DEM doff, and tried stacking BOs to fire off as soon as possible. true double taps need 2 DBB i know, so there isn't a weapon cooldown between.
DEM and CRF working together got stealth fixed when i pointed out they weren't working together about a year ago, DEM wasn't doing anything when CRF was on, DEM was only doing damage when the canons were firing normally. needless to say, it was very noticeable after they got fixed, a single cannon cruiser with CRF and DEM now can remove half an escort's or sci ship's hull in 10 seconds, unless the target or his allies reacts before that. its impressive damage, and at the right time can be whats needed to focus down a hardened target, but so often its damage thats lost in the ether of cross heals.
wile FAW had no accuracy, single builds were much better at dealing damage then beams on a cruiser. now they are about equal again. pretty often my single cannon excelsior have had bigger damage numbers then FAW boats, with all that direct hull damage.
my latest single cannon boat is a d'deridex, aside from the monbosh its the most deadly tac cruiser ive been able to put together. a little bit of spike from BO1, APO and CRF and DEM3 plus TBR for more hull damage, or VM to make the guy momentarily helpless have made it my best single boat to date. with 4 mine turn consoles, its not even that bad with DHC, unless im fighting nothing but escorts. its also the most fragile tac crusier ive built, but warbirds can get away with that pretty easily with their sing jump and BC.
nope me too...