The way I see it, cryptic has a "if it's fun, nerf it." policy in force.
pretty much. also balance cruisers! but not with AtB, i hate AtB. buff them in another way that also doesn't buff escorts, even though theres nothing consolably better at doing that already then AtB.
hopefully they will realize how ridiculous they sound, and stop soon.
a2b an exploit????????? Now I've heard everything.:eek:
The founding devs had a vision and put cool downs in place to balance the game... they added global cool downs... and they even limited the numbers of boff slots.
Then someone added doffs... and gave us doffs for every cool down catagory and some of them where given a chance component as those systems where viewed as higher value... you know they thought a but about balance.
Then in a bone head move some other dev gave one doff the ability to effect EVERY global catagory... and didn't even make it chance based.
Yes its as close to an exploit as anything Cryptic has coded on purpose.
10x more of an exploit then say loading 2 copies of a tac ability... something the founding devs added on purpose.
The founding devs had a vision and put cool downs in place to balance the game... they added global cool downs... and they even limited the numbers of boff slots.
Then someone added doffs... and gave us doffs for every cool down catagory and some of them where given a chance component as those systems where viewed as higher value... you know they thought a but about balance.
Then in a bone head move some other dev gave one doff the ability to effect EVERY global catagory... and didn't even make it chance based.
Yes its as close to an exploit as anything Cryptic has coded on purpose.
10x more of an exploit then say loading 2 copies of a tac ability... something the founding devs added on purpose.
i have to agree, even though i love my a2b cruiser (made it viable to actually fly one for me)
the idea of giving a doff so much leverage to actually create an impressively strong build around it must be born out of a heavy drug induced orgy of inspiration so obscene that words can't describe it.
it is effectively against all common sense regarding balance, but it made cruisers viable for a dps role.
giving all cruisers a flight deck would have been a less obvious "iWN" button.
in the grand scheme it won't matter...PVP is at the bottom of the agenda at cryptic, so balancing around something they basically ignore would be illogical.
on a related issue: If mechwarrior online and Star trek online would have a baby...that would be actually a nice game regarding shipbuilds and balance between PVE and PVP.
Aux2batt is not OP. It's the Pilot! He flies a different build and gets the same results.
Also depends on the ship. A cruiser that already has the ability to take a decent Tac boff setup (Odyssey, Sovereign), doesn't profit as much from an A2B build as one that's limited in Tac slots, but has plenty of, otherwise somewhat useless, Eng Boff slots (e.g Galaxy, Star Cruiser, Heavy Cruiser, Marauder, Corsair etc...).
I have yet to see it as OP.
I use a Tac with AtB
It has done nothing for me in PvP
Evidently I still suck you see
I do follow the thread by red ricky
But honestly AtB has done little for me
It may be my build you see
It was better but they nerfed BO, you see
Now they wanna nerf AtB
I never found it OP, you see
Yes its as close to an exploit as anything Cryptic has coded on purpose.
I have to disagree with that. I have to...just don't really have a choice. AtB's the same as it was...it has been recoded to be as effective as it is now, to be what it is now - what it is now, like many things that have been around for more than a wee while...are like they are because of everything Cryptic has coded since.
S6, S7, LoR...all the little things between and since...those were done on purpose. That's what's effed the game up.
I have yet to see it as OP.
I use a Tac with AtB
It has done nothing for me in PvP
Evidently I still suck you see
I do follow the thread by red ricky
But honestly AtB has done little for me
It may be my build you see
It was better but they nerfed BO, you see
Now they wanna nerf AtB
I never found it OP, you see
Are you using the Purple techies and Warp guys that work alongside AtB and EPtX? The reduce the cycle times of the EPtX and boost power to the batteries to up power dramatically when AtB is used, plus engie captain traits up power even more. It is possible to have 125+ power for periods of time when done right.
I'm would say its over powering, but it does help engi cruisers alot.
I have to disagree with that. I have to...just don't really have a choice. AtB's the same as it was...it has been recoded to be as effective as it is now, to be what it is now - what it is now, like many things that have been around for more than a wee while...are like they are because of everything Cryptic has coded since.
S6, S7, LoR...all the little things between and since...those were done on purpose. That's what's effed the game up.
Oh I agree 100% that its all the junk they have added passives / 10 trait slots. Ships that are more and more defensive but not really more and more dmging... yes 5 forward slots ships... still doesn't make up for everyone having 1.0+ shield mods and 7-10k more hull on average. Skill tree changes that have given everyone even more hull and more resists... it goes on and on.
None of that stuff is broken on its own... its that it has all been piled on... its Death by 1000 cuts. Nothing is contrary to the game mechanics... they all conform to the core idea... however the defensive stuff has been laid on thicker then the offensive stuff.... it also opens up a massive skill gap. As the dmg is still there and the dmg buffs are there if you know how to rig your ship... the difference between someone that knows what they are doing and someone that doesn't in terms of offense is obscene. The same can be true a little bit on the healing end... however more and more the stuff they are adding is simply passive... both resists and on crit heals... and even just by getting everyone into a lockbox or fleet ship.
The tech doffs however completely skirt the intended mechanics... at least just as much as what people claim was skirting mechanics by loading 2 copies of a skill. (something that involved sitting out a weapon for 15s completely) If that mechanic is an exploit... then after looking at exactly how Tech doffs effect multiple intended system cool downs that where intended to balance things.... it sure does look like an explit... Of course in the case of tech doffs... the devs knew exactly how it would be used... and frankly SO did the founding devs that coded STO.... I seem to remember getting double tapped by snix once. lmao
Honestly I am sounding strong against Aux To bat... and there is a reason.... I agree with the change to the Tac Buffs... I am fine with the end of double tap and not being allowed to combo HY patterns anymore.... I think its a bit stupid as it was the destruction of the core game with power levels... EPS levels for all (and the way weapon power drain was changed... with the old power drain mechanics and with out stupid power drain doffs doubel tapping would have been fine as only the use of a battary would have allowed it to happen making the run much more complicated... there is a reason mini max used to blow up 90% of the time previously and it wasn't just the tric feedback... it was also because 80% of the time his timing sucked)
Anyway back to the point... aux to bat is more broken then the double tap mechanic... when it comes down to it one of the worst aspects of the game right now is the inbalance in the doffs.... and Cryptic really needs one dev to sit down for a few days and tweak a bunch of them... making some (the sci ones) a bit more useful and reducing the strength of a handful of others. I think they never really looked at them much once they pushed them out the door.
Are you using the Purple techies and Warp guys that work alongside AtB and EPtX? The reduce the cycle times of the EPtX and boost power to the batteries to up power dramatically when AtB is used, plus engie captain traits up power even more. It is possible to have 125+ power for periods of time when done right.
I'm would say its over powering, but it does help engi cruisers alot.
Yes I am, all that and more that I can use. My power levels are excellent and turn around is quick. I just do not find it OP and think AtB builds are one that helps Battle cruisers very much keep up with escorrs.
you make it sound like AtB circumvents global cool downs, that actually would be op. but it doesn't, it cant have better up time then 2 of the same skill. in fact on an AtB build you rottenly have between 3 and 7 seconds longer to wait depending on how AtB lines up, on skills with short cooldowns like tac skills.
you make it sound like AtB circumvents global cool downs, that actually would be op. but it does doesn't, it cant have better up time then 2 of the same skill. in fact on an AtB build you rottenly have between 3 and 7 seconds longer to wait depending on how AtB lines up, on stills with short cooldowns like tac skills.
AtB more broken then double taping? G8 B8 M8
Think to your self...
Tech doffs.... designed to improve EPTx....
Chance based... need 3 to really ensure 100% uptime... on that one class of skills....
Cannon Doffs... Designed to improve Rapid and Scatter...
Chance based... need 3 to ensure 100% uptime on one copy.
Beam doffs but sub target and overload....
Chance based... need 3 to ensure 100% uptime... and they are split into 2 types.
Photonic doffs... designed to improve shockwave cool down.
Not chance based... but only effects that one specific skill... 2 required to hit global.
Tac Team doffs...
Not chance based... but 2 required to hit global
Sci Team doffs...
Not chance based... but 2 required to hit global
Engi Team doffs...
Not chance based... but 2 required to hit global
Deflector control doffs... Reduces cool down on Gravity well Tykens... and siphen I think
Chance based... need 2 perhaps 3 to really see any reliable effect
Attack Pattern doffs...
2 required with 2 patterns to bring things to global... 3 doesn't quite get some skills like omega to global. (3 tech doffs sure does though)
Torpedo doffs.... that reduce cool downs for HY and Spread
Don't exist
RSP doffs... that reduce the cool down on RSP.
Don't Exist
Extend doffs... that reduce the cool down on extend.
Don't exist
I have no doubt I forgot a bunch... but the point is....
3 tech doffs REPLACE ALL of those doffs... and provide the effect of doffs that don't exist... complete with ZERO RNG invovled... there is no chance component.
We can argue if they really make ships 10x better or not... but they do out class every other doff.
Cannon Doffs... Designed to improve Rapid and Scatter...
Chance based... need 3 to ensure 100% uptime on one copy.
The one doff I quite don't get. It's for tac captains, but most builds run with mult copies of cannon abilites. On the pther hand, I've made plenty EC selling these when they get scarce.
Tech doffs.... designed to improve EPTx....
Chance based... need 3 to really ensure 100% uptime... on that one class of skills....
Cannon Doffs... Designed to improve Rapid and Scatter...
Chance based... need 3 to ensure 100% uptime on one copy.
Beam doffs but sub target and overload....
Chance based... need 3 to ensure 100% uptime... and they are split into 2 types.
Photonic doffs... designed to improve shockwave cool down.
Not chance based... but only effects that one specific skill... 2 required to hit global.
Tac Team doffs...
Not chance based... but 2 required to hit global
Sci Team doffs...
Not chance based... but 2 required to hit global
Engi Team doffs...
Not chance based... but 2 required to hit global
Deflector control doffs... Reduces cool down on Gravity well Tykens... and siphen I think
Chance based... need 2 perhaps 3 to really see any reliable effect
Attack Pattern doffs...
2 required with 2 patterns to bring things to global... 3 doesn't quite get some skills like omega to global. (3 tech doffs sure does though)
Torpedo doffs.... that reduce cool downs for HY and Spread
Don't exist
RSP doffs... that reduce the cool down on RSP.
Don't Exist
Extend doffs... that reduce the cool down on extend.
Don't exist
I have no doubt I forgot a bunch... but the point is....
3 tech doffs REPLACE ALL of those doffs... and provide the effect of doffs that don't exist... complete with ZERO RNG invovled... there is no chance component.
We can argue if they really make ships 10x better or not... but they do out class every other doff.
True, they do and they are great if one wishes to make a build that has lower cooldowns for specific abilities if one does not wish to suffer having a low Aux power pool availible whe running said bud without having to micromanage when the cooldown reduction effect is needed like one must a AtB build.
Even since the December, what have we seen change, eh?
You could drop one of the turrets for a KCB, so you can 2pc the secondary Borg for the OWA proc.
Drop the MACO shields for Elite Fleet Shields.
Drop the 0Point for Leech.
Drop the EPS for an E-Neut [+Turn].
Drop a SDO(BFI) DOFF for a WCE(Cleanse).
Drop a SDO(BFI) DOFF for a EWO(BO).
Drop EPtA1 for EPtE1.
Add in the Elite Fleet Core of your choice.
Trade the 2x Flow Caps for 2x Rom Flow Caps...your preference on the [HuH] or [ShH].
From New Rom Rep, grab Precision - Emergency Secondary Shielding - Quantum Singularity Manipulation.
From Omega Rep, grab Omega Weapon Training - Superior Shield Repair.
From Nukara Rep, grab Enhanced Shield Penetration - Aux Power Config: Offense - Refracting Tetryon Cascade.
Go with that potential mix of Elachi, Nanite, and Polarized Disruptors...
So what changed with the AtB? Nothing.
But wait some will say, you could do all that stuff on any ship.
Okay, so do this:
Take that original ship in a non-AtB form. Take that ship in an AtB form. Note the gap between the two ships. Add in all that stuff. Note the gap between the two ships.
That's where the issues are, imho - whether one is talking about AtB, BO, DHCs vs. Beam Arrays, etc, etc, etc. Cryptic tends to use fixed ratios. The more you increase things around those fixed ratios, while the ratios may remain in place - the value represented by the difference of those ratios becomes absurd.
Where once one might argue there were different ways to improve the performance of Cruisers, the manner in which everything else has changed - doesn't quite make that the case at this point.
That's not AtB's fault though...AtB shouldn't be nerfed to fix that issue...that causes folks to have to do everything and then some to use AtB.
Consider what they've been talking about with the Grav Well stuff, eh? Some folks at the extremes might see a nerf, eh? In general, it's being improved though, right?
They need to do that with almost everything in the game...damage, healing, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...deep breath...etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
I have no doubt I forgot a bunch... but the point is....
3 tech doffs REPLACE ALL of those doffs... and provide the effect of doffs that don't exist... complete with ZERO RNG invovled... there is no chance component.
We can argue if they really make ships 10x better or not... but they do out class every other doff.
ah! here we go, how AtB is op on paper! translated into practice, on the ships that can run it, its shockingly not that simple
Photonic doffs... designed to improve shockwave cool down.
Not chance based... but only effects that one specific skill... 2 required to hit global.
a minority of AtB capable ships have a LTC sci slot, and on none of them that do is PWS at all useful. only PSW3 can stun long enough to get anything out of. if your on something that actually has a COM sci, running AtB is killing your aux levels, something a ship with a COM sci needs most.
Tac Team doffs...
Not chance based... but 2 required to hit global
ships that cant run AtB already have nothing better to slot then 2 copies, or they dont particularly need it. these were pretty much only used by cruisers that now run AtB now anyway.
Deflector control doffs... Reduces cool down on Gravity well Tykens... and siphen I think
Chance based... need 2 perhaps 3 to really see any reliable effect
need aux to run these well, so tech doffs arent doing you any favors
Attack Pattern doffs...
2 required with 2 patterns to bring things to global... 3 doesn't quite get some skills like omega to global. (3 tech doffs sure does though)
3 of them get omega to global, with 2 you just have to run APD as well. for classic escorts that wouldn't need AtB to buff their tac skill uptime, the tweener ships that are good for nothing without AtB least have tech doffs to help them the amount they need help.
RSP doffs... that reduce the cool down on RSP.
Don't Exist
a lot of ships that run 2 AtB builds might not even have room for RSP with all the mid level eng stations removed from play. those that do are slow as hell cruiser that cant avoid fire so they actually need rsp in the first place
Extend doffs... that reduce the cool down on extend.
Don't exist
nope, AtB does not help your ES much at all. its cooldown only starts after its duration ends, not durring the duration. 2 copies are the only way to global this.
on paper op=yes
in practice op=no
try coming up with an actual real build on a real ship using tech doffs thats op. thats as op as anything that can double tap. heres a hint, the best AtB builds are in my thread for you to choose from. please show us a real live build on a real live ship thats as op as you imply.
i really need to go back and update everything thats been posted pre LoR. hell, pre elatchi lockbox
It's mind-boggling how much stuff they've added...isn't it? Heck, I forgot the Inspirational Leader and Helmsman traits for that too...so much stuff.
I've been pretty consistent (sic) in the various AtB threads out there with my complaint - the inconsistency. Not about nerfing it - just making it consistent. I've got a feeling that Cryptic is going to nerf AtB though. Cause haven't we seen it elsewhere?
There's mechanic X.
Cryptic adds oodles of things (that generally generate revenue for them in some manner) that affect or are affected by mechanic X.
Folks start complaining about mechanic X.
Rather than address all of their revenue generating monstrosities...they nerf mechanic X instead.
In the end, this is going to lead to the game actually being P2W, eh? Cause all the core stuff will end up so nerfed up the wahzoo...that you'll need all the TRIBBLE even to get a glimmer of the performance you had before they added all the garbage.
I can't help but picture Geko in a holodeck program as Uncle Scrooge swimming through a pool fool of gold coins...
a minority of AtB capable ships have a LTC sci slot, and on none of them that do is PWS at all useful. only PSW3 can stun long enough to get anything out of. if your on something that actually has a COM sci, running AtB is killing your aux levels, something a ship with a COM sci needs most.
My point is about the doff... not ships... regardless if your in a ship with Lt Cmd sci shockwave and Viral matrix are both great options as they DON'T scale with aux power at all... and you can run both Shockwave and Viral at global. I also forget to mention Mr. TBR... the skill that in fact benifits from being run at 5 aux.
ships that cant run AtB already have nothing better to slot then 2 copies, or they dont particularly need it. these were pretty much only used by cruisers that now run AtB now anyway.
There about to end doubling up of tac buffs... trust me you are going to see a lot more beam cannon torp escorts and yes aux to bat is going to be a good option to keep them all going.
need aux to run these well, so tech doffs arent doing you any favors
last I checked the Deflector skills all have 60s cool downs... so you use them at a high aux setting then you aux to bat... who cares if the aux power is gone for 10s... it will be back in 30s when you can use the skill again.
3 of them get omega to global, with 2 you just have to run APD as well. for classic escorts that wouldn't need AtB to buff their tac skill uptime, the tweener ships that are good for nothing without AtB least have tech doffs to help them the amount they need help.
Not the point my point is still valid... 3 tech doffs on any ship with more then 2 engi slots... is a better option then attack pattern doffs. Does the same job + everything else.
a lot of ships that run 2 AtB builds might not even have room for RSP with all the mid level eng stations removed from play. those that do are slow as hell cruiser that cant avoid fire so they actually need rsp in the first place
As I have pointed out a few times 2 copies of Aux to bat is stupid. I should stop saying brings everything to global perhaps... I'm sorry brings everything to 2-6s of global depending on the skill.
Seriously wth would anyone waste a second slot for 2 copies of aux to bat... for 2s ? On any skill at 45s+ 1 copy is the same as 2 copies anyway.
try coming up with an actual real build on a real ship using tech doffs thats op. thats as op as anything that can double tap. heres a hint, the best AtB builds are in my thread for you to choose from. please show us a real live build on a real live ship thats as op as you imply.
Doubling up tac abilities has been in the game for 4 years... aux to bat (in its current form with doffs) at most around a year or so I think.
If you want proof this is op... its simple... ask the pve kids if they are going to be pissed at us if this changes.... you mean they won't be able to knock out 30,000 dps in Infected any more in there aux to bat cruisers. lmao
Aux to bat has no defense its OP and everyone knows it.
My point is about the doff... not ships... regardless if your in a ship with Lt Cmd sci shockwave and Viral matrix are both great options as they DON'T scale with aux power at all... and you can run both Shockwave and Viral at global. I also forget to mention Mr. TBR... the skill that in fact benifits from being run at 5 aux.
your going to have to come to terms with it not mattering how powerful they are on paper, and it only mattering what ships can actually do with them. its the only valid way to judge them.
There about to end doubling up of tac buffs... trust me you are going to see a lot more beam cannon torp escorts and yes aux to bat is going to be a good option to keep them all going.
what do you think the fix did? it wont prevent people useing them like normal, just from stacking 2 copies at once like you can with torp skills and BO currently. you can still have CRF with the same uptime as always, and use BO every 15 seconds. i somehow doubt most of the double tapers are going to add THY to thier alphas.
The team skills don't need aux power at all... so how does that make sense.
a ship that wants ET or ST at its global with 1 copy is a healer. healers run primarily on aux heals. they would never run AtB builds, because that leaves you with no aux, and no AtS. this shouldn't be something i have to spell out.
last I checked the Deflector skills all have 60s cool downs... so you use them at a high aux setting then you aux to bat... who cares if the aux power is gone for 10s... it will be back in 30s when you can use the skill again.
1 copy of AtB tends to be hard to work with and hard to rely on. thats why so many opt for 2 copies. that leaves you always bad at using aux dependent skills.
Not the point my point is still valid... 3 tech doffs on any ship with more then 2 engi slots... is a better option then attack pattern doffs. Does the same job + everything else.
classic escorts, like the bug, andorian, defiant, steamrunner, and saber that use damage control and AP doffs are still, faster and better turning ships, not slow turning jack of all trade destroyers that need AtB to compete with them. even in the cases were you can use AtB on actual escorts, your APO, CRF, BO isnt doing more damage or spike then it is from a classic escort. theres no + magical beterness from using AtB.
As I have pointed out a few times 2 copies of Aux to bat is stupid. I should stop saying brings everything to global perhaps... I'm sorry brings everything to 2-6s of global depending on the skill.
Seriously wth would anyone waste a second slot for 2 copies of aux to bat... for 2s ? On any skill at 45s+ 1 copy is the same as 2 copies anyway.
2 copies a waist, you cant be serious. you know, if i was this ignorant about a subject as your showing you are about this, i'd have the sense to not say anything about it.
Doubling up tac abilities has been in the game for 4 years... aux to bat (in its current form with doffs) at most around a year or so I think.
If you want proof this is op... its simple... ask the pve kids if they are going to be pissed at us if this changes.... you mean they won't be able to knock out 30,000 dps in Infected any more in there aux to bat cruisers. lmao
Aux to bat has no defense its OP and everyone knows it.
are you scared of FAW pve AtB cruiser? is it the scariest thing in pvp? the most dangerous? no, they are a joke in pvp, and pve is a joke, so who cares if faw boats get big DPS there. everyone knows how much FAW blows up DPS numbers, its hitting multiple targets. that doesn't mean much when half the stf targets at any given time cant be damaged till you destroy everything else first. DHCs are still the fastest way to destroy everything in stfs. ive frankly delt with pure pve'ers that were more reasonable and logical then you are. at this point i can only hope your fainning deep ignorance to keep this thread bumped.
The aux to bat lovers are cute. I'll pretty much leave it at that... anyone that doesn't understand how these doffs are broken... really isn't ever going to get it. I am not saying they are destroying the game... neither did being able to load a second copy of a tac buff though. Just because something can be countered or isn't always the best way to play doesn't mean it isn't contrary to the game mechanics.
Hey the current dev that seems be doing anything close to balance fixes agrees... I think everyone enjoying the tech doff hax right now should be thankful Cryptic doesn't allow there devs to follow anything through... tech doffs where saved by having no one really paying any attention to them after they where dropped.
Remove or correct them now and incur the wrath of the PvE kids using tech doffs to ra*e borg. lol
What are cruisers going to do if they can't make A2B builds? Its the only way for them to do any real dmg so unless they make something else for cruisers to deal more dmg with or remove cruisers entirely then A2B shouldn't get nerfed.
What are cruisers going to do if they can't make A2B builds? Its the only way for them to do any real dmg so unless they make something else for cruisers to deal more dmg with or remove cruisers entirely then A2B shouldn't get nerfed.
And that, my friend, is the underlying problem that should be fixed.
Rather than allow one gimmicky bending of game mechanics to persist and claim all is fine, some way should be found to make cruisers (especially non-tac-in-a-cruiser) more interesting.
DDIS, a2b, if used correctly, can be very op. Do you remember when you said cruisers can't spike? I remember the outcome of that match up we had very well. That ship I used was a2b powered.
In premades, the dkora pre LoR was a wrecking ball (still is). Cruisers shouldn't be able to do that much spike. That is all thanks to a2b.
Like Husanak said, it is op, but the issue is, Captain PVE Kirks would go mental if any adjustments were made
Just to give another example, having rf3, omega1 & 1 tac team on global due to a2b on escorts is definately op. 3 doffs replacing the function of equivilant 8 doffs (3 ap doffs 3 cannon doffs, 2 tac team) without any chance role, come on.....
Comments
pretty much. also balance cruisers! but not with AtB, i hate AtB. buff them in another way that also doesn't buff escorts, even though theres nothing consolably better at doing that already then AtB.
hopefully they will realize how ridiculous they sound, and stop soon.
The founding devs had a vision and put cool downs in place to balance the game... they added global cool downs... and they even limited the numbers of boff slots.
Then someone added doffs... and gave us doffs for every cool down catagory and some of them where given a chance component as those systems where viewed as higher value... you know they thought a but about balance.
Then in a bone head move some other dev gave one doff the ability to effect EVERY global catagory... and didn't even make it chance based.
Yes its as close to an exploit as anything Cryptic has coded on purpose.
10x more of an exploit then say loading 2 copies of a tac ability... something the founding devs added on purpose.
i have to agree, even though i love my a2b cruiser (made it viable to actually fly one for me)
the idea of giving a doff so much leverage to actually create an impressively strong build around it must be born out of a heavy drug induced orgy of inspiration so obscene that words can't describe it.
it is effectively against all common sense regarding balance, but it made cruisers viable for a dps role.
giving all cruisers a flight deck would have been a less obvious "iWN" button.
in the grand scheme it won't matter...PVP is at the bottom of the agenda at cryptic, so balancing around something they basically ignore would be illogical.
on a related issue: If mechwarrior online and Star trek online would have a baby...that would be actually a nice game regarding shipbuilds and balance between PVE and PVP.
Also depends on the ship. A cruiser that already has the ability to take a decent Tac boff setup (Odyssey, Sovereign), doesn't profit as much from an A2B build as one that's limited in Tac slots, but has plenty of, otherwise somewhat useless, Eng Boff slots (e.g Galaxy, Star Cruiser, Heavy Cruiser, Marauder, Corsair etc...).
I use a Tac with AtB
It has done nothing for me in PvP
Evidently I still suck you see
I do follow the thread by red ricky
But honestly AtB has done little for me
It may be my build you see
It was better but they nerfed BO, you see
Now they wanna nerf AtB
I never found it OP, you see
R.I.P
I have to disagree with that. I have to...just don't really have a choice. AtB's the same as it was...it has been recoded to be as effective as it is now, to be what it is now - what it is now, like many things that have been around for more than a wee while...are like they are because of everything Cryptic has coded since.
S6, S7, LoR...all the little things between and since...those were done on purpose. That's what's effed the game up.
Are you using the Purple techies and Warp guys that work alongside AtB and EPtX? The reduce the cycle times of the EPtX and boost power to the batteries to up power dramatically when AtB is used, plus engie captain traits up power even more. It is possible to have 125+ power for periods of time when done right.
I'm would say its over powering, but it does help engi cruisers alot.
Oh I agree 100% that its all the junk they have added passives / 10 trait slots. Ships that are more and more defensive but not really more and more dmging... yes 5 forward slots ships... still doesn't make up for everyone having 1.0+ shield mods and 7-10k more hull on average. Skill tree changes that have given everyone even more hull and more resists... it goes on and on.
None of that stuff is broken on its own... its that it has all been piled on... its Death by 1000 cuts. Nothing is contrary to the game mechanics... they all conform to the core idea... however the defensive stuff has been laid on thicker then the offensive stuff.... it also opens up a massive skill gap. As the dmg is still there and the dmg buffs are there if you know how to rig your ship... the difference between someone that knows what they are doing and someone that doesn't in terms of offense is obscene. The same can be true a little bit on the healing end... however more and more the stuff they are adding is simply passive... both resists and on crit heals... and even just by getting everyone into a lockbox or fleet ship.
The tech doffs however completely skirt the intended mechanics... at least just as much as what people claim was skirting mechanics by loading 2 copies of a skill. (something that involved sitting out a weapon for 15s completely) If that mechanic is an exploit... then after looking at exactly how Tech doffs effect multiple intended system cool downs that where intended to balance things.... it sure does look like an explit... Of course in the case of tech doffs... the devs knew exactly how it would be used... and frankly SO did the founding devs that coded STO.... I seem to remember getting double tapped by snix once. lmao
Honestly I am sounding strong against Aux To bat... and there is a reason.... I agree with the change to the Tac Buffs... I am fine with the end of double tap and not being allowed to combo HY patterns anymore.... I think its a bit stupid as it was the destruction of the core game with power levels... EPS levels for all (and the way weapon power drain was changed... with the old power drain mechanics and with out stupid power drain doffs doubel tapping would have been fine as only the use of a battary would have allowed it to happen making the run much more complicated... there is a reason mini max used to blow up 90% of the time previously and it wasn't just the tric feedback... it was also because 80% of the time his timing sucked)
Anyway back to the point... aux to bat is more broken then the double tap mechanic... when it comes down to it one of the worst aspects of the game right now is the inbalance in the doffs.... and Cryptic really needs one dev to sit down for a few days and tweak a bunch of them... making some (the sci ones) a bit more useful and reducing the strength of a handful of others. I think they never really looked at them much once they pushed them out the door.
Yes I am, all that and more that I can use. My power levels are excellent and turn around is quick. I just do not find it OP and think AtB builds are one that helps Battle cruisers very much keep up with escorrs.
R.I.P
AtB more broken then double taping? G8 B8 M8
It potentially gives you access to more abilities at the cost of gcds.
I just can't see an op a2b build
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
Think to your self...
Tech doffs.... designed to improve EPTx....
Chance based... need 3 to really ensure 100% uptime... on that one class of skills....
Cannon Doffs... Designed to improve Rapid and Scatter...
Chance based... need 3 to ensure 100% uptime on one copy.
Beam doffs but sub target and overload....
Chance based... need 3 to ensure 100% uptime... and they are split into 2 types.
Photonic doffs... designed to improve shockwave cool down.
Not chance based... but only effects that one specific skill... 2 required to hit global.
Tac Team doffs...
Not chance based... but 2 required to hit global
Sci Team doffs...
Not chance based... but 2 required to hit global
Engi Team doffs...
Not chance based... but 2 required to hit global
Deflector control doffs... Reduces cool down on Gravity well Tykens... and siphen I think
Chance based... need 2 perhaps 3 to really see any reliable effect
Attack Pattern doffs...
2 required with 2 patterns to bring things to global... 3 doesn't quite get some skills like omega to global. (3 tech doffs sure does though)
Torpedo doffs.... that reduce cool downs for HY and Spread
Don't exist
RSP doffs... that reduce the cool down on RSP.
Don't Exist
Extend doffs... that reduce the cool down on extend.
Don't exist
I have no doubt I forgot a bunch... but the point is....
3 tech doffs REPLACE ALL of those doffs... and provide the effect of doffs that don't exist... complete with ZERO RNG invovled... there is no chance component.
We can argue if they really make ships 10x better or not... but they do out class every other doff.
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
10-06-2011, 07:24 AM
The one doff I quite don't get. It's for tac captains, but most builds run with mult copies of cannon abilites. On the pther hand, I've made plenty EC selling these when they get scarce.
R.I.P
Even since the December, what have we seen change, eh?
You could drop one of the turrets for a KCB, so you can 2pc the secondary Borg for the OWA proc.
Drop the MACO shields for Elite Fleet Shields.
Drop the 0Point for Leech.
Drop the EPS for an E-Neut [+Turn].
Drop a SDO(BFI) DOFF for a WCE(Cleanse).
Drop a SDO(BFI) DOFF for a EWO(BO).
Drop EPtA1 for EPtE1.
Add in the Elite Fleet Core of your choice.
Trade the 2x Flow Caps for 2x Rom Flow Caps...your preference on the [HuH] or [ShH].
From New Rom Rep, grab Precision - Emergency Secondary Shielding - Quantum Singularity Manipulation.
From Omega Rep, grab Omega Weapon Training - Superior Shield Repair.
From Nukara Rep, grab Enhanced Shield Penetration - Aux Power Config: Offense - Refracting Tetryon Cascade.
Go with that potential mix of Elachi, Nanite, and Polarized Disruptors...
So what changed with the AtB? Nothing.
But wait some will say, you could do all that stuff on any ship.
Okay, so do this:
Take that original ship in a non-AtB form. Take that ship in an AtB form. Note the gap between the two ships. Add in all that stuff. Note the gap between the two ships.
That's where the issues are, imho - whether one is talking about AtB, BO, DHCs vs. Beam Arrays, etc, etc, etc. Cryptic tends to use fixed ratios. The more you increase things around those fixed ratios, while the ratios may remain in place - the value represented by the difference of those ratios becomes absurd.
Where once one might argue there were different ways to improve the performance of Cruisers, the manner in which everything else has changed - doesn't quite make that the case at this point.
That's not AtB's fault though...AtB shouldn't be nerfed to fix that issue...that causes folks to have to do everything and then some to use AtB.
Consider what they've been talking about with the Grav Well stuff, eh? Some folks at the extremes might see a nerf, eh? In general, it's being improved though, right?
They need to do that with almost everything in the game...damage, healing, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...deep breath...etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
ah! here we go, how AtB is op on paper! translated into practice, on the ships that can run it, its shockingly not that simple
damage control are perfect for ships that cant run AtB, and thus have all the sci and tac they need already.
non tech doff ships run 2 copies at the cost of 0 doffs already.
a minority of AtB capable ships have a LTC sci slot, and on none of them that do is PWS at all useful. only PSW3 can stun long enough to get anything out of. if your on something that actually has a COM sci, running AtB is killing your aux levels, something a ship with a COM sci needs most.
ships that cant run AtB already have nothing better to slot then 2 copies, or they dont particularly need it. these were pretty much only used by cruisers that now run AtB now anyway.
ships that use these, having no aux would be way to much of a down side to even consider running AtB instead.
need aux to run these well, so tech doffs arent doing you any favors
3 of them get omega to global, with 2 you just have to run APD as well. for classic escorts that wouldn't need AtB to buff their tac skill uptime, the tweener ships that are good for nothing without AtB least have tech doffs to help them the amount they need help.
a lot of ships that run 2 AtB builds might not even have room for RSP with all the mid level eng stations removed from play. those that do are slow as hell cruiser that cant avoid fire so they actually need rsp in the first place
nope, AtB does not help your ES much at all. its cooldown only starts after its duration ends, not durring the duration. 2 copies are the only way to global this.
on paper op=yes
in practice op=no
try coming up with an actual real build on a real ship using tech doffs thats op. thats as op as anything that can double tap. heres a hint, the best AtB builds are in my thread for you to choose from. please show us a real live build on a real live ship thats as op as you imply.
i really need to go back and update everything thats been posted pre LoR. hell, pre elatchi lockbox
It's mind-boggling how much stuff they've added...isn't it? Heck, I forgot the Inspirational Leader and Helmsman traits for that too...so much stuff.
I've been pretty consistent (sic) in the various AtB threads out there with my complaint - the inconsistency. Not about nerfing it - just making it consistent. I've got a feeling that Cryptic is going to nerf AtB though. Cause haven't we seen it elsewhere?
There's mechanic X.
Cryptic adds oodles of things (that generally generate revenue for them in some manner) that affect or are affected by mechanic X.
Folks start complaining about mechanic X.
Rather than address all of their revenue generating monstrosities...they nerf mechanic X instead.
In the end, this is going to lead to the game actually being P2W, eh? Cause all the core stuff will end up so nerfed up the wahzoo...that you'll need all the TRIBBLE even to get a glimmer of the performance you had before they added all the garbage.
I can't help but picture Geko in a holodeck program as Uncle Scrooge swimming through a pool fool of gold coins...
My point is about the doff... not ships... regardless if your in a ship with Lt Cmd sci shockwave and Viral matrix are both great options as they DON'T scale with aux power at all... and you can run both Shockwave and Viral at global. I also forget to mention Mr. TBR... the skill that in fact benifits from being run at 5 aux.
There about to end doubling up of tac buffs... trust me you are going to see a lot more beam cannon torp escorts and yes aux to bat is going to be a good option to keep them all going.
The team skills don't need aux power at all... so how does that make sense.
last I checked the Deflector skills all have 60s cool downs... so you use them at a high aux setting then you aux to bat... who cares if the aux power is gone for 10s... it will be back in 30s when you can use the skill again.
Not the point my point is still valid... 3 tech doffs on any ship with more then 2 engi slots... is a better option then attack pattern doffs. Does the same job + everything else.
As I have pointed out a few times 2 copies of Aux to bat is stupid. I should stop saying brings everything to global perhaps... I'm sorry brings everything to 2-6s of global depending on the skill.
Seriously wth would anyone waste a second slot for 2 copies of aux to bat... for 2s ? On any skill at 45s+ 1 copy is the same as 2 copies anyway.
Doubling up tac abilities has been in the game for 4 years... aux to bat (in its current form with doffs) at most around a year or so I think.
If you want proof this is op... its simple... ask the pve kids if they are going to be pissed at us if this changes.... you mean they won't be able to knock out 30,000 dps in Infected any more in there aux to bat cruisers. lmao
Aux to bat has no defense its OP and everyone knows it.
your going to have to come to terms with it not mattering how powerful they are on paper, and it only mattering what ships can actually do with them. its the only valid way to judge them.
what do you think the fix did? it wont prevent people useing them like normal, just from stacking 2 copies at once like you can with torp skills and BO currently. you can still have CRF with the same uptime as always, and use BO every 15 seconds. i somehow doubt most of the double tapers are going to add THY to thier alphas.
a ship that wants ET or ST at its global with 1 copy is a healer. healers run primarily on aux heals. they would never run AtB builds, because that leaves you with no aux, and no AtS. this shouldn't be something i have to spell out.
1 copy of AtB tends to be hard to work with and hard to rely on. thats why so many opt for 2 copies. that leaves you always bad at using aux dependent skills.
classic escorts, like the bug, andorian, defiant, steamrunner, and saber that use damage control and AP doffs are still, faster and better turning ships, not slow turning jack of all trade destroyers that need AtB to compete with them. even in the cases were you can use AtB on actual escorts, your APO, CRF, BO isnt doing more damage or spike then it is from a classic escort. theres no + magical beterness from using AtB.
2 copies a waist, you cant be serious. you know, if i was this ignorant about a subject as your showing you are about this, i'd have the sense to not say anything about it.
are you scared of FAW pve AtB cruiser? is it the scariest thing in pvp? the most dangerous? no, they are a joke in pvp, and pve is a joke, so who cares if faw boats get big DPS there. everyone knows how much FAW blows up DPS numbers, its hitting multiple targets. that doesn't mean much when half the stf targets at any given time cant be damaged till you destroy everything else first. DHCs are still the fastest way to destroy everything in stfs. ive frankly delt with pure pve'ers that were more reasonable and logical then you are. at this point i can only hope your fainning deep ignorance to keep this thread bumped.
Hey the current dev that seems be doing anything close to balance fixes agrees... I think everyone enjoying the tech doff hax right now should be thankful Cryptic doesn't allow there devs to follow anything through... tech doffs where saved by having no one really paying any attention to them after they where dropped.
Remove or correct them now and incur the wrath of the PvE kids using tech doffs to ra*e borg. lol
And that, my friend, is the underlying problem that should be fixed.
Rather than allow one gimmicky bending of game mechanics to persist and claim all is fine, some way should be found to make cruisers (especially non-tac-in-a-cruiser) more interesting.
Having Torps on a double tap actually makes sense, me and a few others use it, such as Emo.
But now that it is being nerfed, back to the drawing board
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
In premades, the dkora pre LoR was a wrecking ball (still is). Cruisers shouldn't be able to do that much spike. That is all thanks to a2b.
Like Husanak said, it is op, but the issue is, Captain PVE Kirks would go mental if any adjustments were made
Just to give another example, having rf3, omega1 & 1 tac team on global due to a2b on escorts is definately op. 3 doffs replacing the function of equivilant 8 doffs (3 ap doffs 3 cannon doffs, 2 tac team) without any chance role, come on.....