To be more specific, Gravity Well 2 and 3 will benefit from Aux power and Graviton Generators skill now -- previously they didn't. The amount that they benefit, though, is being reined in from what it would have been if the powers weren't bugged.
In testing, just making GW2 & 3 benefit from Aux and GravGen allowed a science ship with 135 Aux and 150 GravGen to use GW3 against a group of five frigates and snare and destroy all of them. This is a bit over the top.
Borticus has been tweaking the formulae so that the power will be useful, and you will see improvements in your Gravity Wells from increasing Aux or GravGen, but it won't be over the top.
All other stats being equal, GW2 & 3 will be more powerful than GW1.
...well thats dissapointing in some regards, rereading the notes (I think I may have missed a page earlier due to refreshing without looking if it moved up a page)
...looking at whats been put down on paper; it seems that this may turn out to be a inadvertant nerf to running high spec grav well builds but a general buff to running them 'fresh out the box' so to speak
Still, I'll gladly give up a bit of damage if the darn grav well can hold -something- like its supposed to! (might even be able to toss some more power to my engines, which would be nice)
..speaking of which, if the radius is going to be enlarged, does that mean the damage related aoe will too? huge grav wells sound neat, but if it can't hold properly and those it somehow held for even a moment get zero damage despite being in its grasp, it rather defeats the grav wells purpose in my opinion
IT should be, the target should get dmg until it leaves the area of effect of the grav well. And maybe we are lucky and the hold will really hold something then.
Awesome! Another SCIENCE power that'll be better in the hands of a TACTICAL captain.
Good work.
That is a general problem cause of the tacs resistence debuffs. That is something a sci doesn?t have. Except sensor scan, which has a way to long cooldown to be as effective as the resistence debuffs from a tac. Basically a sci would need a add dmg debuff with a shorter cooldown.
The sci ships sensor analysis isn't working for that, cause it is a ship ability and it only affects the ships weapons anyways, not to mention that it builds up way to slow to be effective and you losse the stack as soon as you have to switch targets for a moment.
ta
Reynolds/Thokal
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class/R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit TheWiseGuys
To be more specific, Gravity Well 2 and 3 will benefit from Aux power and Graviton Generators skill now -- previously they didn't. The amount that they benefit, though, is being reined in from what it would have been if the powers weren't bugged.
In testing, just making GW2 & 3 benefit from Aux and GravGen allowed a science ship with 135 Aux and 150 GravGen to use GW3 against a group of five frigates and snare and destroy all of them. This is a bit over the top.
Borticus has been tweaking the formulae so that the power will be useful, and you will see improvements in your Gravity Wells from increasing Aux or GravGen, but it won't be over the top.
All other stats being equal, GW2 & 3 will be more powerful than GW1.
How do i get 135 Aux? Thought 130 was the limit even with the new Warpcores.
Btw. would be nice if you look at the Fleet Cores, the Names do not match the description in therms which Pwoersystem benefits from which.
And the depending the dmg Gravity well does, The issue are the bigger targets, not the small ones...
So is there any chance that you are making tachyon beam, charged particle burst and the other drain skills useful again? Cause atm they are a joke against npc and other ppl that have skilled a bit in power insulators.
And before i forget it, why is it ok for a tac to kill a bunch of frigates in one sweep and not for a sci? Not to mention that a tac can do that with bigger targets and can redo it way faster then a sci could.
Reynolds/Thokal
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class/R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit TheWiseGuys
To be more specific, Gravity Well 2 and 3 will benefit from Aux power and Graviton Generators skill now -- previously they didn't. The amount that they benefit, though, is being reined in from what it would have been if the powers weren't bugged.
In testing, just making GW2 & 3 benefit from Aux and GravGen allowed a science ship with 135 Aux and 150 GravGen to use GW3 against a group of five frigates and snare and destroy all of them. This is a bit over the top.
Borticus has been tweaking the formulae so that the power will be useful, and you will see improvements in your Gravity Wells from increasing Aux or GravGen, but it won't be over the top.
All other stats being equal, GW2 & 3 will be more powerful than GW1.
So killing five small ships that are sitting perfectly still and using no heals... once every minute.... is over powered?
I appreciate the feedback in the thread and the quick response, but could you explain why the dev team is terrified of science skills with teeth? To get high aux and a large number of points in particle requires sacrificing a lot (weapon power, flying a science ship and using those science slots for actual science and not free space for universal consoles). Surely that's worth being able to lay down some damage? Especially when the effect has half a dozen counters?
Is there any chance that Tyken's Rift is suffering from a similar fate? Currently it has been quite... bad. Simply no other word for it. Just plain old bad.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
So killing five small ships that are sitting perfectly still and using no heals... once every minute.... is over powered?
I appreciate the feedback in the thread and the quick response, but could you explain why the dev team is terrified of science skills with teeth? To get high aux and a large number of points in particle requires sacrificing a lot (weapon power, flying a science ship and using those science slots for actual science and not free space for universal consoles). Surely that's worth being able to lay down some damage? Especially when the effect has half a dozen counters?
At this point we might as well give up. After 3 years, if it isn't a high speed escort with cannons, then it isn't allowed to be a viable threat. Every single threatening Science build we have found has been systematically nerfed. So asking for them to actually restore Grav well back to being a threat is just a waste of breath.
Yes it would be wonderful if a sci captain in a sci ship who has put the work and skillpoints into it should be able to use commander lvl sci powers and be just as much of a threat as an escort doing the same. But it will never be allowed. And every time we find a way to do it it will be nerfed.
To be more specific, Gravity Well 2 and 3 will benefit from Aux power and Graviton Generators skill now -- previously they didn't. The amount that they benefit, though, is being reined in from what it would have been if the powers weren't bugged.
In testing, just making GW2 & 3 benefit from Aux and GravGen allowed a science ship with 135 Aux and 150 GravGen to use GW3 against a group of five frigates and snare and destroy all of them. This is a bit over the top.
Borticus has been tweaking the formulae so that the power will be useful, and you will see improvements in your Gravity Wells from increasing Aux or GravGen, but it won't be over the top.
All other stats being equal, GW2 & 3 will be more powerful than GW1.
You do realize I can do that with CSV and FAW already right? Argh.
This is why Sci will always be subpar especially in PvE this perspective by the system team. Oh no we cannot let the science abilities drain an NPC's subsystem power because then the encounter is too easy, nevermind the fact anyone can borderline AFK solo the target anyway. Oh noes a single power when a ship is geared to the teeth to augment that takes a Cmdr boff slot with a one minute cooldown might be able to kill 5 NPC frigates by itself, can't let that happen!
Yet I can FaW/TS an APB on them and watch the warp plasma destroy them. Because APB is one of the best damage increasing abilities for anything using exotic damage for some strange reason. Oh wait those are battleship NPCs not frigates I do that to.....
In testing, just making GW2 & 3 benefit from Aux and GravGen allowed a science ship with 135 Aux and 150 GravGen to use GW3 against a group of five frigates and snare and destroy all of them. This is a bit over the top.
Borticus has been tweaking the formulae so that the power will be useful, and you will see improvements in your Gravity Wells from increasing Aux or GravGen, but it won't be over the top.
Well as a tactical captain (or even an engineer) can do that with tactical skills, what is wrong with a science captain being able to do something similar?
Even if we can't have that power for the investment stated in your post, can we at least have the snare please? Just so that NPCs can't look at it and go "Hey look, a pretty..." and continue on their path unhindered?
As an escort captain and in all fairness to science captains, they have a serious damage handicap as it is if they use a sci ship. Be nice to them as far as damage goes to science skills.
I'm going to clarify my last post. It seems there seems to be some bias to giving sci captains too much damage from skills (when they have a serious console limitations on theirs ships) while tac captains seems to be benefited from all sorts of power creep every time something new is added to the game. The fact that a tac captain can take down STF cubes solo or handle a single side of no win scenario without any help is proof enough. I understand not wanting a single GW3 to take down multiple weak enemies by itself, but compare that to a tac captain just using GW1 and then shooting down a whole side of NWS (Wave 10 included) by itslef, and you can see sci captains keep being punished every single time because of fears of too much damage. Heck, you've left Energy Siphon 3 as one of those non-trainable skills probably because of fears of its power drains from sci captains that go overboard with flow capacitors. Funny enough , the way its coded, it's made to benefit people who fly sci ships the most. What I'm trying to get to is, don't punish sci captains skills because youre afraid of damage while not caring about damage every time you introduce changes into the game. At this point you can fly around in a ship with effectively 4 weapon procs while using a single type of weapon with all these hybrids and bonuses form sets and consoles.
To be more specific, Gravity Well 2 and 3 will benefit from Aux power and Graviton Generators skill now -- previously they didn't. The amount that they benefit, though, is being reined in from what it would have been if the powers weren't bugged.
In testing, just making GW2 & 3 benefit from Aux and GravGen allowed a science ship with 135 Aux and 150 GravGen to use GW3 against a group of five frigates and snare and destroy all of them. This is a bit over the top.
Borticus has been tweaking the formulae so that the power will be useful, and you will see improvements in your Gravity Wells from increasing Aux or GravGen, but it won't be over the top.
All other stats being equal, GW2 & 3 will be more powerful than GW1.
Like already some other did comment either civil or more emotional.
Where is there a Problem with a Commander Rank ability that is only usable on a already baseline tactical handicaped ship like a SCi vessel to do actual damage?
The destruction of those 5 Target would Need to see a se of circumstances to be fullfilled at the same time. The Ships Need to be stationary right at the Center of the well and the invoker of the well would have to set AUX to max aswell as invested countless skillpoints into particle Generators.
So considering that Targets always are moving and can't be at the same place at the same time the Chance of a full damage effect is almost even to null.
To repeat this the cooldown of GW and it's global are pretty much the longest there is in game making it impossible to chain on a single ship anyway.
so if i compare the effect with a Escort no matter what typ of Cpt in it TAC, ENG, SCi just a simple CSV 1 with APB1 or a CSV3 would wipe the same ships in less time with a possibility of chaining the power with just a gap of 5 seconds.
There is no need for heavy infestmend in any skills or consols.
No need to run a Subsystem powerlevel at a niveau you ain't would already.
So please either tune GW to the Point it is the Nemesis you said it would be or drasticly reduce the cooldown on it so SCi vessels can actualy chain powers at a reasonable rate like Escorts do.
As off now one of the biggest downfall of SCi powers is not that they just ain't work Close to how they are advertised but that the way to Long cooldowns make them to situational and do call for an extreme infestmend neither a Cpt flying a Escort or Cruiser would need to regardless of Class.
High cooldowns are just unfun even more with powers you can't use for most situations anyway.
To be more specific, Gravity Well 2 and 3 will benefit from Aux power and Graviton Generators skill now -- previously they didn't. The amount that they benefit, though, is being reined in from what it would have been if the powers weren't bugged.
No problem. What existed before sort of worked, one had to spec plenty in AoE holds to get things to stick in the well. It took your whole ship (mobile+EWP+single ship holds) with an expensive universal (Graviton Pulse Gen) to make Grav Well work as a primary attack. Once everything was stuck though, it was a powerful, although slower than cannon AoE. Fail to execute the combination it sucked. It took skill. Lots of fun in PvE. Too many ways a player target could wreck it.
In testing, just making GW2 & 3 benefit from Aux and GravGen allowed a science ship with 135 Aux and 150 GravGen to use GW3 against a group of five frigates and snare and destroy all of them. This is a bit over the top.
Depends where your Particle Generators skill is at, how much of your ship had to be dedicated to your Grav Well, how does it compare with AoE cannons not possible on a Science ship. Build an AoE tactical ship, see how quickly it wipes five frigates. Admittedly a grav well used like this becomes 'set and forget' sounds like an awful idea. At the moment I have many things to manage during my grav well (like not getting immobilized with EWP fly-through). My grav well was much more interactive than stationary cannon volleys.
Borticus has been tweaking the formulae so that the power will be useful, and you will see improvements in your Gravity Wells from increasing Aux or GravGen, but it won't be over the top.
By itself, a little adjustment would be fine. But the earlier dev post suggested you're making the power work better for people with no Aux. Unless you want STO's skies to be cluttered with purple blooms (not very Trekky but perhaps that's not important) then it's better if GW is something you need to build for.
All other stats being equal, GW2 & 3 will be more powerful than GW1.
All other stats are not equal, the point people are making. A Tac ship can buff Sci powers more than a Sci ship, and those buffs also boost everything else. A Tac captain can take it further. GW1 should not be as effective as GW3. Compared in the same ship, you're not testing anything. Compare a Tac/GW1 with Sci/GW3.
Thanks for revisiting GW though, I appreciate your intentions and wish you find a great solution here.
To be more specific, Gravity Well 2 and 3 will benefit from Aux power and Graviton Generators skill now -- previously they didn't. The amount that they benefit, though, is being reined in from what it would have been if the powers weren't bugged.
In testing, just making GW2 & 3 benefit from Aux and GravGen allowed a science ship with 135 Aux and 150 GravGen to use GW3 against a group of five frigates and snare and destroy all of them. This is a bit over the top.
Borticus has been tweaking the formulae so that the power will be useful, and you will see improvements in your Gravity Wells from increasing Aux or GravGen, but it won't be over the top.
All other stats being equal, GW2 & 3 will be more powerful than GW1.
hmm maybe you should then i dunno.. have them npc's heal themselves?
dont get me wrong, i appreciate you guys fixing it, but also nerfing it at the same time? really?
just take science out of the game if you dont want it to do things. like others have said, tacs can kill those 5 frigates in half the time a grav well theoritcally could.
hmm maybe you should then i dunno.. have them npc's heal themselves?
dont get me wrong, i appreciate you guys fixing it, but also nerfing it at the same time? really?
just take science out of the game if you dont want it to do things. like others have said, tacs can kill those 5 frigates in half the time a grav well theoritcally could.
Its not even just that a tac can. Let us take a gander at something very quickly.
DHC @ 89 Weapon Power = 1122 DPS roughly
/w CSV 1 Active = 1291 DPS to 3 targets I believe.
So a conservative estimate on the DPS granted from that Lt. rank ability is what, 2751 DPS per DHC I have 3 so 8253 DPS boost and that is very conservative assuming my DHCs are firing at full drain from themselves not counting my turrets no buffs active or attack patterns etc etc.
That is the effective damage potential of a single Lt. Tac Boff ability with 1/3rd uptime and they are telling us a Cmdr Sci boff ability when heavily invested in shouldn't be able to kill NPC Frigates? With a one minute cooldown no less...
Gotta agree with the sentiments here. Kind of annoying to get it fixed and then get it nerfed back down again.
Also, I do wish you would invert the formula so that base GW is useless without skill modifiers. Upper-range of hold and damage should be around 200 points of gravitons and particle generators, that gives room for 99 raw skill and another 100 for skill consoles, set items, etc. If somebody puts that much effort into it, they have nerfed themselves on other fronts to get there.
Gotta agree with the sentiments here. Kind of annoying to get it fixed and then get it nerfed back down again.
Also, I do wish you would invert the formula so that base GW is useless without skill modifiers. Upper-range of hold and damage should be around 200 points of gravitons and particle generators, that gives room for 99 raw skill and another 100 for skill consoles, set items, etc. If somebody puts that much effort into it, they have nerfed themselves on other fronts to get there.
I am not certain if reducing GW1 effect below the actual state, and forcing either high skill and consol usuage ontop of it would help SCi in the Grand scheme.
SCi already is overloaded with hight skillcosts and need of slotting several consols just to make a subset of powers potent.
Compare it to ENG powers where this is just limited if at all the case and if you go to TAC not at all.
Nerfing GW1 would only result in it to be another useless SCi power and result would be another underused power ingame because simple TAC powers perform way better then this without any drawbacks.
At some Point there has to be drawn a line that clearly says what is expected of SCi powers to perform and compare to ENG and TAC.
As of now SCi Vessel that is needed for a GW2 or GW3 has less debuff potential then a Escort or TAC heavy BOff Station ship making the idea of a debuffer as what SCi vessel where advertised in the past just not true
Exactly what other players have been saying. Science is completely gimped now and except for healing has no role in the game. 3 minutes is a joke. I can decimate 10 tholian ships in azure with aoe torpedoes and mines in under 90 secs. I am a tac who uses GW and singularity jump to trap those ships. What harm is there in allowing science vessels to do half of what I can do in twice the time.
Stop being slaves to us escort jockeys and give science a chance. I am sure it will lead to lots of sales ... Myself included. Heck I am happy if you restrict this to gw3 so tac can't have access to it.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
I wouldn't mind the nerfed damage too much, since tacs in sci ships would be able to spec the same way and use GW with far more damage than a Sci could- probably enough to be OP, actually.
All I want is for the hold to be good. At least then it would fulfil its primary purpose.
I am not certain if reducing GW1 effect below the actual state, and forcing either high skill and consol usuage onto it ontop would help SCi in the Grand scheme.
SCi already is overloaded with hight skillcosts and need of slotting several consols just to make a subset of powers potent.
Compare it to ENG powers where this is just limited if at all the case and if you go to TAC not at all.
Nerfing GW1 would only result in it to be another useless SCi power and result would be another underused power ingame because simple TAC powers perform way better then this without any drawbacks.
At some Point there has to be drawn a line that clearly says what is expected of SCi powers to perform and compare to ENG and TAC.
As of now the underlying base for a GW2 or GW3 has less debuff potential then a Escort or TAC heavy BOff Station ship making the idea of a debuffer as what SCi vessel where advertised in the past just not true
I agree with this fully. I'd for example would love to know how flow caps and power insulators ended up costing different skill points when one affects the other on a 1 to 1 basis.
For tacs you can just skip putting anything into captain level skills unless you love stealthiness or being targeted at.
Tacs have to specialize heavily in weapon skills *and* load up on Tac consoles and universal consoles to do top damage. I dont see the difference.
What exactly do science specialized builds do again ...
1. Cc ... Nope
2. Debuffs ... Nah
3. Damage ... No way
4. Heals ... Yes
They are fine for premises but totally useless otherwise. TRIBBLE-tic fails epically again.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Tacs have to specialize heavily in weapon skills *and* load up on Tac consoles and universal consoles to do top damage. I dont see the difference.
ENG and SCi do the same those Points are spend no matter what class or what ship you in.
Same with the consols they are equiped no matter if you fly a Cruiser, SCi-Vessel or Scort.
It is not that you have a choice without gimping you even further.
The only saving grace to it is that most of the TAC skills you need ecxept the ones modifying Crit dmaage are at the lower end off the skill tree so costing less where SCi skills are all over the place.
result is you have to invest in the same skills as everyone else and ontop of that into another set of high cost skills that no one ecxept a SCi Station heavy ship would consider to use in any greater quantity.
It's double taxing the skillpoints if you want to fly with Magic.
And still the results are less.
ENG and SCi do the same those Points are spend no matter what class or what ship you in.
That's not true at all. You may think you're entitled to do full weapon damage and all sci abilities at the same time but you arent. The minimum for sci is Maneuvers (def) and Targeting (acc), everything else in the top two rows are optional.
You can make a great drain ship that only uses the polaron/tetryon procs and doesnt have any points in damage or crit chance skills.
Simple choice really, you can do some weapon damage and some sci, or you can do no weapon damage and a lot of sci, you're not entitled to all of it.
Sci ships have limited weapon mounts precisely because they arent supposed to do a lot of weapon damage... You can overcome, to an extent, doesnt mean you're entitled to it.
That's not true at all. You may think you're entitled to do full weapon damage and all sci abilities at the same time but you arent. The minimum for sci is Maneuvers (def) and Targeting (acc), everything else in the top two rows are optional.
You can make a great drain ship that only uses the polaron/tetryon procs and doesnt have any points in damage or crit chance skills.
Simple choice really, you can do some weapon damage and some sci, or you can do no weapon damage and a lot of sci, you're not entitled to all of it.
Sci ships have limited weapon mounts precisely because they arent supposed to do a lot of weapon damage... You can overcome, to an extent, doesnt mean you're entitled to it.
Ofcourse you can do this and it would do great in a perfect world or in a premade.
And i already see where this shall lead if we allow it any further and i rather don't want it to derail it that far.
As a matter of facti am pretty happy that still all involved Keep the conversation civil and down to facts.
SCi powers have to work on there own as should SCi Vessel.
Other game have warrior, Mages, Wizards, Kleriks, Hunter, Rouges, Druids, Monks and Healing Priests.
Why should it be that all should be resembled in STO by a Scort Captain but only the SCi Vessel fill the healing Priest?
Anyway i wont respond anyfurther to this like i already stated i rather want to have this post stay closer to the OP then to have it to much derailed as the matter is to importend to me.
Either start new or Point to a existing post that is discussing the Topic.
Please make sure that the changes in Gravity well WON'T affect the singularity jump, is a common problem in this game that when something is changed, the change spread across other powers that use the same code.
Comments
Good work.
Do you even Science Bro?
In testing, just making GW2 & 3 benefit from Aux and GravGen allowed a science ship with 135 Aux and 150 GravGen to use GW3 against a group of five frigates and snare and destroy all of them. This is a bit over the top.
Borticus has been tweaking the formulae so that the power will be useful, and you will see improvements in your Gravity Wells from increasing Aux or GravGen, but it won't be over the top.
All other stats being equal, GW2 & 3 will be more powerful than GW1.
IT should be, the target should get dmg until it leaves the area of effect of the grav well. And maybe we are lucky and the hold will really hold something then.
That is a general problem cause of the tacs resistence debuffs. That is something a sci doesn?t have. Except sensor scan, which has a way to long cooldown to be as effective as the resistence debuffs from a tac. Basically a sci would need a add dmg debuff with a shorter cooldown.
The sci ships sensor analysis isn't working for that, cause it is a ship ability and it only affects the ships weapons anyways, not to mention that it builds up way to slow to be effective and you losse the stack as soon as you have to switch targets for a moment.
ta
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class / R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer
U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit
TheWiseGuys
How do i get 135 Aux? Thought 130 was the limit even with the new Warpcores.
Btw. would be nice if you look at the Fleet Cores, the Names do not match the description in therms which Pwoersystem benefits from which.
And the depending the dmg Gravity well does, The issue are the bigger targets, not the small ones...
So is there any chance that you are making tachyon beam, charged particle burst and the other drain skills useful again? Cause atm they are a joke against npc and other ppl that have skilled a bit in power insulators.
And before i forget it, why is it ok for a tac to kill a bunch of frigates in one sweep and not for a sci? Not to mention that a tac can do that with bigger targets and can redo it way faster then a sci could.
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class / R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer
U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit
TheWiseGuys
That's all I needed to hear.
Thanks!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
So killing five small ships that are sitting perfectly still and using no heals... once every minute.... is over powered?
I appreciate the feedback in the thread and the quick response, but could you explain why the dev team is terrified of science skills with teeth? To get high aux and a large number of points in particle requires sacrificing a lot (weapon power, flying a science ship and using those science slots for actual science and not free space for universal consoles). Surely that's worth being able to lay down some damage? Especially when the effect has half a dozen counters?
Is there any chance that Tyken's Rift is suffering from a similar fate? Currently it has been quite... bad. Simply no other word for it. Just plain old bad.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
At this point we might as well give up. After 3 years, if it isn't a high speed escort with cannons, then it isn't allowed to be a viable threat. Every single threatening Science build we have found has been systematically nerfed. So asking for them to actually restore Grav well back to being a threat is just a waste of breath.
Yes it would be wonderful if a sci captain in a sci ship who has put the work and skillpoints into it should be able to use commander lvl sci powers and be just as much of a threat as an escort doing the same. But it will never be allowed. And every time we find a way to do it it will be nerfed.
You do realize I can do that with CSV and FAW already right? Argh.
This is why Sci will always be subpar especially in PvE this perspective by the system team. Oh no we cannot let the science abilities drain an NPC's subsystem power because then the encounter is too easy, nevermind the fact anyone can borderline AFK solo the target anyway. Oh noes a single power when a ship is geared to the teeth to augment that takes a Cmdr boff slot with a one minute cooldown might be able to kill 5 NPC frigates by itself, can't let that happen!
Yet I can FaW/TS an APB on them and watch the warp plasma destroy them. Because APB is one of the best damage increasing abilities for anything using exotic damage for some strange reason. Oh wait those are battleship NPCs not frigates I do that to.....
Gah, ranty but this mentality annoys me greatly.
Well as a tactical captain (or even an engineer) can do that with tactical skills, what is wrong with a science captain being able to do something similar?
Even if we can't have that power for the investment stated in your post, can we at least have the snare please? Just so that NPCs can't look at it and go "Hey look, a pretty..." and continue on their path unhindered?
Like already some other did comment either civil or more emotional.
Where is there a Problem with a Commander Rank ability that is only usable on a already baseline tactical handicaped ship like a SCi vessel to do actual damage?
The destruction of those 5 Target would Need to see a se of circumstances to be fullfilled at the same time. The Ships Need to be stationary right at the Center of the well and the invoker of the well would have to set AUX to max aswell as invested countless skillpoints into particle Generators.
So considering that Targets always are moving and can't be at the same place at the same time the Chance of a full damage effect is almost even to null.
To repeat this the cooldown of GW and it's global are pretty much the longest there is in game making it impossible to chain on a single ship anyway.
so if i compare the effect with a Escort no matter what typ of Cpt in it TAC, ENG, SCi just a simple CSV 1 with APB1 or a CSV3 would wipe the same ships in less time with a possibility of chaining the power with just a gap of 5 seconds.
There is no need for heavy infestmend in any skills or consols.
No need to run a Subsystem powerlevel at a niveau you ain't would already.
So please either tune GW to the Point it is the Nemesis you said it would be or drasticly reduce the cooldown on it so SCi vessels can actualy chain powers at a reasonable rate like Escorts do.
As off now one of the biggest downfall of SCi powers is not that they just ain't work Close to how they are advertised but that the way to Long cooldowns make them to situational and do call for an extreme infestmend neither a Cpt flying a Escort or Cruiser would need to regardless of Class.
High cooldowns are just unfun even more with powers you can't use for most situations anyway.
No problem. What existed before sort of worked, one had to spec plenty in AoE holds to get things to stick in the well. It took your whole ship (mobile+EWP+single ship holds) with an expensive universal (Graviton Pulse Gen) to make Grav Well work as a primary attack. Once everything was stuck though, it was a powerful, although slower than cannon AoE. Fail to execute the combination it sucked. It took skill. Lots of fun in PvE. Too many ways a player target could wreck it.
Depends where your Particle Generators skill is at, how much of your ship had to be dedicated to your Grav Well, how does it compare with AoE cannons not possible on a Science ship. Build an AoE tactical ship, see how quickly it wipes five frigates. Admittedly a grav well used like this becomes 'set and forget' sounds like an awful idea. At the moment I have many things to manage during my grav well (like not getting immobilized with EWP fly-through). My grav well was much more interactive than stationary cannon volleys.
By itself, a little adjustment would be fine. But the earlier dev post suggested you're making the power work better for people with no Aux. Unless you want STO's skies to be cluttered with purple blooms (not very Trekky but perhaps that's not important) then it's better if GW is something you need to build for.
All other stats are not equal, the point people are making. A Tac ship can buff Sci powers more than a Sci ship, and those buffs also boost everything else. A Tac captain can take it further. GW1 should not be as effective as GW3. Compared in the same ship, you're not testing anything. Compare a Tac/GW1 with Sci/GW3.
Thanks for revisiting GW though, I appreciate your intentions and wish you find a great solution here.
hmm maybe you should then i dunno.. have them npc's heal themselves?
dont get me wrong, i appreciate you guys fixing it, but also nerfing it at the same time? really?
just take science out of the game if you dont want it to do things. like others have said, tacs can kill those 5 frigates in half the time a grav well theoritcally could.
Do you even Science Bro?
Its not even just that a tac can. Let us take a gander at something very quickly.
DHC @ 89 Weapon Power = 1122 DPS roughly
/w CSV 1 Active = 1291 DPS to 3 targets I believe.
So a conservative estimate on the DPS granted from that Lt. rank ability is what, 2751 DPS per DHC I have 3 so 8253 DPS boost and that is very conservative assuming my DHCs are firing at full drain from themselves not counting my turrets no buffs active or attack patterns etc etc.
That is the effective damage potential of a single Lt. Tac Boff ability with 1/3rd uptime and they are telling us a Cmdr Sci boff ability when heavily invested in shouldn't be able to kill NPC Frigates? With a one minute cooldown no less...
Also, I do wish you would invert the formula so that base GW is useless without skill modifiers. Upper-range of hold and damage should be around 200 points of gravitons and particle generators, that gives room for 99 raw skill and another 100 for skill consoles, set items, etc. If somebody puts that much effort into it, they have nerfed themselves on other fronts to get there.
I am not certain if reducing GW1 effect below the actual state, and forcing either high skill and consol usuage ontop of it would help SCi in the Grand scheme.
SCi already is overloaded with hight skillcosts and need of slotting several consols just to make a subset of powers potent.
Compare it to ENG powers where this is just limited if at all the case and if you go to TAC not at all.
Nerfing GW1 would only result in it to be another useless SCi power and result would be another underused power ingame because simple TAC powers perform way better then this without any drawbacks.
At some Point there has to be drawn a line that clearly says what is expected of SCi powers to perform and compare to ENG and TAC.
As of now SCi Vessel that is needed for a GW2 or GW3 has less debuff potential then a Escort or TAC heavy BOff Station ship making the idea of a debuffer as what SCi vessel where advertised in the past just not true
Stop being slaves to us escort jockeys and give science a chance. I am sure it will lead to lots of sales ... Myself included. Heck I am happy if you restrict this to gw3 so tac can't have access to it.
- Judge Aaron Satie
All I want is for the hold to be good. At least then it would fulfil its primary purpose.
I agree with this fully. I'd for example would love to know how flow caps and power insulators ended up costing different skill points when one affects the other on a 1 to 1 basis.
For tacs you can just skip putting anything into captain level skills unless you love stealthiness or being targeted at.
What exactly do science specialized builds do again ...
1. Cc ... Nope
2. Debuffs ... Nah
3. Damage ... No way
4. Heals ... Yes
They are fine for premises but totally useless otherwise. TRIBBLE-tic fails epically again.
- Judge Aaron Satie
ENG and SCi do the same those Points are spend no matter what class or what ship you in.
Same with the consols they are equiped no matter if you fly a Cruiser, SCi-Vessel or Scort.
It is not that you have a choice without gimping you even further.
The only saving grace to it is that most of the TAC skills you need ecxept the ones modifying Crit dmaage are at the lower end off the skill tree so costing less where SCi skills are all over the place.
result is you have to invest in the same skills as everyone else and ontop of that into another set of high cost skills that no one ecxept a SCi Station heavy ship would consider to use in any greater quantity.
It's double taxing the skillpoints if you want to fly with Magic.
And still the results are less.
You can make a great drain ship that only uses the polaron/tetryon procs and doesnt have any points in damage or crit chance skills.
Simple choice really, you can do some weapon damage and some sci, or you can do no weapon damage and a lot of sci, you're not entitled to all of it.
Sci ships have limited weapon mounts precisely because they arent supposed to do a lot of weapon damage... You can overcome, to an extent, doesnt mean you're entitled to it.
Ofcourse you can do this and it would do great in a perfect world or in a premade.
And i already see where this shall lead if we allow it any further and i rather don't want it to derail it that far.
As a matter of facti am pretty happy that still all involved Keep the conversation civil and down to facts.
SCi powers have to work on there own as should SCi Vessel.
Other game have warrior, Mages, Wizards, Kleriks, Hunter, Rouges, Druids, Monks and Healing Priests.
Why should it be that all should be resembled in STO by a Scort Captain but only the SCi Vessel fill the healing Priest?
Anyway i wont respond anyfurther to this like i already stated i rather want to have this post stay closer to the OP then to have it to much derailed as the matter is to importend to me.
Either start new or Point to a existing post that is discussing the Topic.
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)