I like that EPtE helps you power out of it. I also like having ways of stacking hold to overcome the EPtE. I like that there are counters, and counters to the counters.
*zooms by on EPtE3*
What? I couldn't hear you over the roar of my FPE going at 200+ impulse speeds. Or over the Risian Corvette that just blew past me.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
We won't be going that far, but we are reviewing the issue.
the problem isn't that npcs have it, so you have to do more then sit there at full stop wile you attack them, its that EPtE1 tends to more then double your movement speed, and with it you can set engines to 15 and move twice as fast as someone without EPtE, with no downside other the it being 1 of the 2 EPt skills you can run on your ship
basically, the speed buff of EPtE needs to be cut in half, its turned every escort, and even any cruisers that run it, into fighters, not ships of the line. i said this as far back as the LoR beta
People who run ACT knew for a long time that GW3 and 2 were underperforming. But why bother to report? How many times i did it? But then FINALLY it was adressed, since its one of the few sci skills that have some purpose left. I have to say, thank you, and please, VERIFY all other sci skills, they need a major balance (TR, Viral, Jam and scramble, Photonic Shockwave, syphon, charge particle).. After 'acknowledging' the GW problem you looked at it really fast, so would be good to keep going and check everything while ure on the mood!
I like that they move fast, and require ACC or a lot of hard controls to ball up for slaughter.
I like that it makes it harder for my escort to keep DHCs on target, and that it gives a bit of new life for my BFAW boat as the arc is much more generous and forgiving.
The main issue is, IMO, their behavior.
They scatter to the winds, probably because their original behavior never considered them moving at these speeds.
If their behavior gets fixed, they can keep EPTE and be less flighty.
Agreed - it's not that they are resistant to holds that's the problem, it's the way they scatter (and especially the way they get themselves stuck on/in things). This is a problem because it doesn't make them more dangerous to fight (quite the opposite, as they isolate themselves and dilute their firepower), but rather just makes them take longer to kill.
** In order to offset this decrease, the base damage has been increased by a good amount across all ranks. This should result in a notable increase to baseline performance, and a decrease to high-end performance.
All of the core, unskilled damage values of Gravity Well will be getting an increase of about 40-50%. So if you never used high-Aux or high-Skill with your builds, your GravWell (all ranks) is about to become far more potent.
We also reduced the multiplier given by Particle Generators Skill. Attempting to give you the actual % values would be useless here because of the overall order of operations, but suffice it so say that it's been reduced. So, again, high-end users may see a decrease in the damage dealt by their Gravity Wells when combining high Skill levels with high Aux levels.
---
I would still love to know what the new skill multiplier will be if you don't mind. It will not be useless we already know the formulas.
This discussion has been quite helpful in improving my limited understanding.
In reading the Graviton Generators "Skills" description, there is no reference to it affecting Gravity Well. It only indicates the ability to train GW3 with investment of points.
Perhaps, at some point, Gravity Well could be included on the list of "Examples include" abilities so that more players can understand the impact that Graviton Generator will have on this ability.
I do hope that the performance of GW3 with High Aux and High PartiGen and High GraviGen will be greater than it is TODAY (aka without a fix) with identical settings.
I can understand how it won't be "as improved" as it might be without the multiplier adjustments and such, but the performance should be a greater than it is today with high aux, etc.
After following the post the last day and reading all the comments on the changes that are scheduled to be tested i am somewhat worried.
The fact that after the we should see a increase in effect on low to medium AUX but a reduction to what the tooltip would today imply with high AUX does just favor low SCi power Station ships like SCi Scorts or SCi Cruiser but not actual SCi Vessel.
Aswell some concerns about scaleing of the repel and damage some Players did throw in concerns about stacking those powers could make them way to OP. I would like to counter this as of using multiply ships firing with cannons at the same target is aswell not demed OP but just Overkill.
Plus comparing the already high cooldown of GWx and it's attached global do look pretty weak compared to the usual fire and Forget TAC powers so please don't take into account a possible stacking of this power as a blancing Point.
If peak damage of GW should be reduced for high AUX and high skillbuilds consider a reduction in cooldown for the power aswell.
After following the post the last day and reading all the comments on the changes that are scheduled to be tested i am somewhat worried.
The fact that after the we should see a increase in effect on low to medium AUX but a reduction to what the tooltip would today imply with high AUX does just favor low SCi power Station ships like SCi Scorts or SCi Cruiser but not actual SCi Vessel.
Aswell some concerns about scaleing of the repel and damage some Players did throw in concerns about stacking those powers could make them way to OP. I would like to counter this as of using multiply ships firing with cannons at the same target is aswell not demed OP but just Overkill.
Plus comparing the already high cooldown of GWx and it's attached global do look pretty weak compared to the usual fire and Forget TAC powers so please don't take into account a possible stacking of this power as a blancing Point.
If peak damage of GW should be reduced for high AUX and high skillbuilds consider a reduction in cooldown for the power aswell.
kudos for the idea, yeah, the cool down is the balance for this power and definitely there would be a proportional tweak to be thorough in the modification when considering the power as a whole.
PvE Jem'Hadar motto:Participation Ribbonsare life.
After following the post the last day and reading all the comments on the changes that are scheduled to be tested i am somewhat worried.
The fact that after the we should see a increase in effect on low to medium AUX but a reduction to what the tooltip would today imply with high AUX does just favor low SCi power Station ships like SCi Scorts or SCi Cruiser but not actual SCi Vessel.
Aswell some concerns about scaleing of the repel and damage some Players did throw in concerns about stacking those powers could make them way to OP. I would like to counter this as of using multiply ships firing with cannons at the same target is aswell not demed OP but just Overkill.
Plus comparing the already high cooldown of GWx and it's attached global do look pretty weak compared to the usual fire and Forget TAC powers so please don't take into account a possible stacking of this power as a blancing Point.
If peak damage of GW should be reduced for high AUX and high skillbuilds consider a reduction in cooldown for the power aswell.
I must admit that is one of the first things that popped into my head. Don't get me wrong I am happy it's getting a good look at it but lets make it rewarding for players who do put more than 100 points into both particle gens and graviton gens and run high aux all or most of the time.
I mean we've all seen how laughable attack pattern beta 3 with FAW spam makes any and all PvE content. I've even seen PvP teams get roflstomped by A2B FAW+APB teams and while I'm sure there are some people a bit hurt over it there are counters and weaknesses. Should we really be that worried about people that do spec heavily in gravity well 2/3 to make it good especially as for most players they will only have Lieutenant engineering and tactical stations to boost their damage. I mean they do give up a large amount of offence for these high ranking abilities so should they not be rewarded for it rather than be laughed at as an ensign ability outstrips it?
Either way I look forward to testing it with others here in tribble when you are ready for us to have a play and leave sensible feedback.
Also bareel if you could post the formula when we do so it would help a lot of us test it
Energy Siphon 1 seems to be also bugged. While 2 and 3 drain/buff equally, ES1 has a divergent effect (the more you drain the less power % wise you get).
Also bareel if you could post the formula when we do so it would help a lot of us test it
It is late so this could be not 100% accurate but I'm pretty sure it is. Also this is from current Tribble testing and relies on tooltips being accurate (they aren't always).
Base Value = 224.35
Rank Modifier = 112.15
Skill Mod = .25 (I was incorrect earlier it is already a .25 skill mod)
AUX Mod = +1% per 1 over 50 assuming it goes the other way below 50
So formula
(Base Value + (Rank Mod * Rank)) * (1+(Particle Gen Skill pts * .0025)) * AUX Mod
Hope its right!
Quick double check on Holo GW1 listed at 821.3 dps
Aux = 130
PG Skill = 138
It's been said, but boosting base damage and reducing the impact of particle generators skill improves GW1 (the Tac-ship useable version) on both counts. The Tac pilot presumably boosts it further with cross-the-board boosts like APA.
I rather liked GW being an unusual, high-end Sci ability. I'd managed to make it worthwhile with heaps of Particle Generator consoles (4+ on a Sci ship). Now GW will be everywhere (for sure at first as everyone tests it, but potentially forever as a 'remote mine') and my GW3 might not be any better than GW1 by a Tac pilot in a Tac ship. I'll just do less damage overall due to the weapons difference.
Hopefully testers will take the whole picture into account to ensure GW3 is relevant. I'm afraid I don't have disk space to install Tribble.
I must admit that is one of the first things that popped into my head. Don't get me wrong I am happy it's getting a good look at it but lets make it rewarding for players who do put more than 100 points into both particle gens and graviton gens and run high aux all or most of the time.
I mean we've all seen how laughable attack pattern beta 3 with FAW spam makes any and all PvE content. I've even seen PvP teams get roflstomped by A2B FAW+APB teams and while I'm sure there are some people a bit hurt over it there are counters and weaknesses. Should we really be that worried about people that do spec heavily in gravity well 2/3 to make it good especially as for most players they will only have Lieutenant engineering and tactical stations to boost their damage. I mean they do give up a large amount of offence for these high ranking abilities so should they not be rewarded for it rather than be laughed at as an ensign ability outstrips it?
Either way I look forward to testing it with others here in tribble when you are ready for us to have a play and leave sensible feedback.
Also bareel if you could post the formula when we do so it would help a lot of us test it
I was thinking the same thing, buffing the core damage while nerfing particle generator/high auxiliary power bonuses makes the ability much more useful for science based escorts or tactical cruisers and less useful for science vessels looking to invest in the skill for their source of damage. Yes, a science vessel can deal 49,000 damage over 20 seconds to anything caught in the well before resistances. This requires 6 console slots, 18k skill points, 2-3 trait slots, a specific deflector, and the ship's commander station. That is a huge investment in order to make the ability very powerful. And unlike escort high damage builds, the science officer's damage from Gravity well can be completely negated by using a control immunity ability to move out of the well.
Nice that you finally look into it. There is only one but. The change for the particle generators and the aux scaling hurts the more specialized builds, casue as you said they will see a decrease in dmg. Not that having a higher base dmg is a bad thing, but this way it makes it less apealing to skill into particle generators or running high aux.
So you basically reduce the benefit of running high aux on a sci if it cones to that skill. Which gives sci one reason less to run high aux setups.
Btw. while you are looking into Gravity well could you make the other sci skills, like tyknes rifft, tachyon beam, and charged particle burst useful again also? Cause more then having some graphic effects on the screen thy do basically nothing atm.
Reynolds/Thokal
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class/R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit TheWiseGuys
I found an issue that was causing the kinetic damage on GravWell 2 & 3 to not account properly for the player's Aux power. The system guys are going to update it and test it to make sure that this doesn't suddenly cause its damage output to go too high, but we will definitely fix it so that if you use GW3 with a high Aux rating, it will scale up and be better than GW1.
Could you, please, just fix it to work as advertised and let use by players determine if it is too powerful???? Pre-nerfing a fix, especially a science skill (we needs more of these to be effective) and a skill that can be flown out of, seems.... Silly.
also, keep in mind that the deflector doff does not reduce GW by 50%, the GW global is 40 seconds, so thats the lowest it can be reduced to.
Yes, that DOff is full of fail, doesn't work on half the skills listed (only works on the AoE skills not the single target ones as far as I can tell) and the ones it does work on can't be reduced by 50%
Edit: now that I think about it some more: Whoohoooooo! I already had that thing ticking for some 1,1-1,2k on PvE enemies. This might really give my sci some bite again...
Thats nothing...in my fdssv, I was, if I recall, doing 3 to 4 k a tick...and that was with genero blue particle consoles (x5)
...now if I rommed up to xii, added a particle gen buffing core; the part gen buffing uni consoles...
-evil grin-
...of course the moment I'm dumb enough to take it in pvp/kerrat on a whim...
Thats nothing...in my fdssv, I was, if I recall, doing 3 to 4 k a tick...and that was with genero blue particle consoles (x5)
...now if I rommed up to xii, added a particle gen buffing core; the part gen buffing uni consoles...
-evil grin-
...of course the moment I'm dumb enough to take it in pvp/kerrat on a whim...
I don't know if you red the notes for the change, but they clearly say that they will reduce the dmg improvement that particle generators or high aux is doing...
They improved the base dmg, but reduced the boost gw gets from teh particle generator skill.
They notes for the changes even mention that at high aux and high skill lvl in particle generators it is basically less then now, cause of the lower scaling...
So maybe you should wait with the party till the change hits holodeck...
Reynolds/Thokal
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class/R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit TheWiseGuys
I don't know if you red the notes for the change, but they clearly say that they will reduce the dmg improvement that particle generators or high aux is doing...
They improved the base dmg, but reduced the boost gw gets from teh particle generator skill.
They notes for the changes even mention that at high aux and high skill lvl in particle generators it is basically less then now, cause of the lower scaling...
So maybe you should wait with the party till the change hits holodeck...
...well thats dissapointing in some regards, rereading the notes (I think I may have missed a page earlier due to refreshing without looking if it moved up a page)
...looking at whats been put down on paper; it seems that this may turn out to be a inadvertant nerf to running high spec grav well builds but a general buff to running them 'fresh out the box' so to speak
Still, I'll gladly give up a bit of damage if the darn grav well can hold -something- like its supposed to! (might even be able to toss some more power to my engines, which would be nice)
..speaking of which, if the radius is going to be enlarged, does that mean the damage related aoe will too? huge grav wells sound neat, but if it can't hold properly and those it somehow held for even a moment get zero damage despite being in its grasp, it rather defeats the grav wells purpose in my opinion
Comments
*zooms by on EPtE3*
What? I couldn't hear you over the roar of my FPE going at 200+ impulse speeds. Or over the Risian Corvette that just blew past me.
If you're soliciting uninformed advice, I'd say:
1) Remove EPtE entirely from battleship-class NPCs like Gorn battleships. Give them a different EPtX power instead.
2) Give escort-class NPCs like Raptors and Spheres a much higher turn rate and lower inertia so they can zoom-zoom without flying out of range.
the problem isn't that npcs have it, so you have to do more then sit there at full stop wile you attack them, its that EPtE1 tends to more then double your movement speed, and with it you can set engines to 15 and move twice as fast as someone without EPtE, with no downside other the it being 1 of the 2 EPt skills you can run on your ship
basically, the speed buff of EPtE needs to be cut in half, its turned every escort, and even any cruisers that run it, into fighters, not ships of the line. i said this as far back as the LoR beta
Agreed - it's not that they are resistant to holds that's the problem, it's the way they scatter (and especially the way they get themselves stuck on/in things). This is a problem because it doesn't make them more dangerous to fight (quite the opposite, as they isolate themselves and dilute their firepower), but rather just makes them take longer to kill.
I would still love to know what the new skill multiplier will be if you don't mind. It will not be useless we already know the formulas.
If it means anything to you then: They are being reduced from .5 to .25
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Thank you, yes it does!
Infact I just wasted the past ten minutes figuring out the current multiplier glad to see my imprecise testing was accurate.
I'd welcome you to double-check my formulas when the changes come to Tribble.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
I shall, and attempt to break it along with seeing if any old bugs (+Torp consoles) make their way back
I for one would love to see deadly GWs again.
In reading the Graviton Generators "Skills" description, there is no reference to it affecting Gravity Well. It only indicates the ability to train GW3 with investment of points.
Perhaps, at some point, Gravity Well could be included on the list of "Examples include" abilities so that more players can understand the impact that Graviton Generator will have on this ability.
I do hope that the performance of GW3 with High Aux and High PartiGen and High GraviGen will be greater than it is TODAY (aka without a fix) with identical settings.
I can understand how it won't be "as improved" as it might be without the multiplier adjustments and such, but the performance should be a greater than it is today with high aux, etc.
I look forward to the fix.
The fact that after the we should see a increase in effect on low to medium AUX but a reduction to what the tooltip would today imply with high AUX does just favor low SCi power Station ships like SCi Scorts or SCi Cruiser but not actual SCi Vessel.
Aswell some concerns about scaleing of the repel and damage some Players did throw in concerns about stacking those powers could make them way to OP. I would like to counter this as of using multiply ships firing with cannons at the same target is aswell not demed OP but just Overkill.
Plus comparing the already high cooldown of GWx and it's attached global do look pretty weak compared to the usual fire and Forget TAC powers so please don't take into account a possible stacking of this power as a blancing Point.
If peak damage of GW should be reduced for high AUX and high skillbuilds consider a reduction in cooldown for the power aswell.
kudos for the idea, yeah, the cool down is the balance for this power and definitely there would be a proportional tweak to be thorough in the modification when considering the power as a whole.
I must admit that is one of the first things that popped into my head. Don't get me wrong I am happy it's getting a good look at it but lets make it rewarding for players who do put more than 100 points into both particle gens and graviton gens and run high aux all or most of the time.
I mean we've all seen how laughable attack pattern beta 3 with FAW spam makes any and all PvE content. I've even seen PvP teams get roflstomped by A2B FAW+APB teams and while I'm sure there are some people a bit hurt over it there are counters and weaknesses. Should we really be that worried about people that do spec heavily in gravity well 2/3 to make it good especially as for most players they will only have Lieutenant engineering and tactical stations to boost their damage. I mean they do give up a large amount of offence for these high ranking abilities so should they not be rewarded for it rather than be laughed at as an ensign ability outstrips it?
Either way I look forward to testing it with others here in tribble when you are ready for us to have a play and leave sensible feedback.
Also bareel if you could post the formula when we do so it would help a lot of us test it
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=847791
It is late so this could be not 100% accurate but I'm pretty sure it is. Also this is from current Tribble testing and relies on tooltips being accurate (they aren't always).
Base Value = 224.35
Rank Modifier = 112.15
Skill Mod = .25 (I was incorrect earlier it is already a .25 skill mod)
AUX Mod = +1% per 1 over 50 assuming it goes the other way below 50
So formula
(Base Value + (Rank Mod * Rank)) * (1+(Particle Gen Skill pts * .0025)) * AUX Mod
Hope its right!
Quick double check on Holo GW1 listed at 821.3 dps
Aux = 130
PG Skill = 138
(224.35 + (112.15 * 1)) * (1+(138*.0025) * 140%
(336.5) * (1.345) * (1.8)
814.6 close enough for me
I rather liked GW being an unusual, high-end Sci ability. I'd managed to make it worthwhile with heaps of Particle Generator consoles (4+ on a Sci ship). Now GW will be everywhere (for sure at first as everyone tests it, but potentially forever as a 'remote mine') and my GW3 might not be any better than GW1 by a Tac pilot in a Tac ship. I'll just do less damage overall due to the weapons difference.
Hopefully testers will take the whole picture into account to ensure GW3 is relevant. I'm afraid I don't have disk space to install Tribble.
I was thinking the same thing, buffing the core damage while nerfing particle generator/high auxiliary power bonuses makes the ability much more useful for science based escorts or tactical cruisers and less useful for science vessels looking to invest in the skill for their source of damage. Yes, a science vessel can deal 49,000 damage over 20 seconds to anything caught in the well before resistances. This requires 6 console slots, 18k skill points, 2-3 trait slots, a specific deflector, and the ship's commander station. That is a huge investment in order to make the ability very powerful. And unlike escort high damage builds, the science officer's damage from Gravity well can be completely negated by using a control immunity ability to move out of the well.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Actualy you can run those two no catch on that.
It's just that you can't run a second copy of a gravemetric DOff's.
So you basically reduce the benefit of running high aux on a sci if it cones to that skill. Which gives sci one reason less to run high aux setups.
Btw. while you are looking into Gravity well could you make the other sci skills, like tyknes rifft, tachyon beam, and charged particle burst useful again also? Cause more then having some graphic effects on the screen thy do basically nothing atm.
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class / R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer
U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit
TheWiseGuys
Could you, please, just fix it to work as advertised and let use by players determine if it is too powerful???? Pre-nerfing a fix, especially a science skill (we needs more of these to be effective) and a skill that can be flown out of, seems.... Silly.
also, keep in mind that the deflector doff does not reduce GW by 50%, the GW global is 40 seconds, so thats the lowest it can be reduced to.
Do you even Science Bro?
Yes, that DOff is full of fail, doesn't work on half the skills listed (only works on the AoE skills not the single target ones as far as I can tell) and the ones it does work on can't be reduced by 50%
Thats nothing...in my fdssv, I was, if I recall, doing 3 to 4 k a tick...and that was with genero blue particle consoles (x5)
...now if I rommed up to xii, added a particle gen buffing core; the part gen buffing uni consoles...
-evil grin-
...of course the moment I'm dumb enough to take it in pvp/kerrat on a whim...
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Doubtful.
While Particle Generators do effect Singularity Jump's damage, I don't think it scales with Aux but with the level of singularity absorption.
I don't know if you red the notes for the change, but they clearly say that they will reduce the dmg improvement that particle generators or high aux is doing...
They improved the base dmg, but reduced the boost gw gets from teh particle generator skill.
They notes for the changes even mention that at high aux and high skill lvl in particle generators it is basically less then now, cause of the lower scaling...
So maybe you should wait with the party till the change hits holodeck...
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class / R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer
U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit
TheWiseGuys
...well thats dissapointing in some regards, rereading the notes (I think I may have missed a page earlier due to refreshing without looking if it moved up a page)
...looking at whats been put down on paper; it seems that this may turn out to be a inadvertant nerf to running high spec grav well builds but a general buff to running them 'fresh out the box' so to speak
Still, I'll gladly give up a bit of damage if the darn grav well can hold -something- like its supposed to! (might even be able to toss some more power to my engines, which would be nice)
..speaking of which, if the radius is going to be enlarged, does that mean the damage related aoe will too? huge grav wells sound neat, but if it can't hold properly and those it somehow held for even a moment get zero damage despite being in its grasp, it rather defeats the grav wells purpose in my opinion
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