As with all new things, getting used to a change takes time. I, however, like the new icons. They are more thematic than the old ones. Gives the consoles a better sense of family.
I admit I like the look of the new icons. However, as the OP states, I'm familiar with the old icons and find this change rather cumbersome and unnecessary.
Because they looked different, not to mention most color blind people are of RED/GREEN blindness which has nothing to do with the way items were colored for rarity.
The new items are just the same shape with the colors changed, and unlucky for people like me, the shades have to many red/green variation to be easily differentiated.
Actually, my #1 observation is that the new damage type consoles have different texture details for different damage types.....
To be honest, I couldnt. Not between the blue and purple. I had to use the filters to select the rarity when I was doffing. Or look at the % (10% I guessed was blue, 20% was purple). In terms of consoles, I never knew what rarity I had. Still dont.
I distance myself, in the stronger possible terms, from the guy who said "Could have been dealt a tougher life." What a klutz!
Still, having said that, I don't think icons should be made with the express purpose of having exclusively (nearly) blind people in mind. They should simply be easily distinguishable from one another for everyone! (For one, I suspect hgh-contrast areas, such as you suggested, would hardly be noticed by non-visually impaired people).
Anyone who's ever done any commisioned work in this area, on a professional level, will know it's an easy noob-trap to fall into: burying yourself in the art work, forgetting icons need to be functional, primarily. And one of the prime functions of an icon is to be clearly different from the rest of the lot. If not, you have a fail-icon, no matter how pretty it is.
Someone at Cryptic thought it was important enough to get done that they assigned TtC do it. You might not agree with the change, but how many changes in the game do people actually agree with?
Typical STO forum: Cryptic changes something and some segment of the fan-base nerd rages about it for a few weeks and then its forgotten and people get on with their lives. Remember all the nerd rage over Cryptic changing the Dilithium values so people earned less? What became of that? It's been a month since all the nerd rage to the changes to Tour the Galaxy. What became of that?
Actually, it seems like there are even fewer people doing it now-a-days.
Used to be that when it came up on the schedule, one would see approximately 10 to 15 players dash into the Club on ESD to the NPC and dash out again...
The last few times I was there at that point, there have been maybe two or three.
I'm not saying that the change was a bad thing, but it did visibly reduce the number of players using that resource.
<shrug>
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
I distance myself, in the stronger possible terms, from the guy who said "Could have been dealt a tougher life." What a klutz!
Still, having said that, I don't think icons should be made with the express purpose of having exclusively (nearly) blind people in mind. They should simply be easily distinguishable from one another for everyone! (For one, I suspect hgh-contrast areas, such as you suggested, would hardly be noticed by non-visually impaired people).
Anyone who's ever done any commisioned work in this area, on a professional level, will know it's an easy noob-trap to fall into: burying yourself in the art work, forgetting icons need to be functional, primarily. And one of the prime functions of an icon is to be clearly different from the rest of the lot. If not, you have a fail-icon, no matter how pretty it is.
Speaking as a color blind person, I actually agree. I don't think that the icons should be made exclusively for us. However if they were to make them more color blind/vision impaired friendly, it can only be a benefit for everyone. I mean if we can tell the difference, you guys will most certainly be able to. It's a win-win for everyone.
SO its your contention, that because he is stating he has a color perception problem, that he, "Could have been dealt a tougher life"?.
Just one question, are you color blind? because if your not, you have no idea what its like or how tough it is to deal with it on a daily basis in a world that uses color for so many things. Just look around you as you go through a day and see how many thing you take for granted are in color.
Sounds like you are saying his argument is invalid because he's only color blind.
Um, we could start with the fact he's not blind blind, the "I can't see at all" kind. That his eyes can still perceive light and his brain interpret it as an image, it's just he's missing some of the details. My dad's godfather is totally blind, totally deaf and mute to boot, and was born that way. All the things shar can see and hear are only abstract concepts to him. This is sort of a "man cries because he has no shoes till he sees someone with no feet"
Everywhere I look, people are screaming about how bad Cryptic is.
What's my position?
That people should know what they're screaming about!
(paraphrased from "The Newsroom)
A lot of icons look too similar to each other. The tactical consoles for example all have a similar look. While it may be more 'cannon', it's harder to distinguish between them at a quick glance especially when in the middle of a battle and you have a need/greed popup you have to click. In the old system, you could EASILY tell the difference between a tetryon pulse generator, and a plasma infuser. Now, the only way to tell quickly is by the color and the very subtle differences in texture. The color is easy to tell if you have the 2 next to each other side by side, but by themselves, not so easy at a glance.
_____________________
Come join the 44th Fleet.
startrek.44thfleet.com[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
You're colour-blind? You could have been dealt a tougher hand in life.
What gave you that idea? No, I'm not color blind, but I do have a friend who is red/green color blind, so I am more sensitive to this topic than most folks. He really gets messed up by red/green traffic lights oriented horizontally >_< (yes, they are out there)
In addition, what makes you think they didn't check with someone who is also colour-blind, like perhaps the Lead Designer Al Rivera? He was in favour of the changes made.
What degree of color blindness does Al Rivera have?
Speaking as a color blind person, I actually agree. I don't think that the icons should be made exclusively for us. However if they were to make them more color blind/vision impaired friendly, it can only be a benefit for everyone. I mean if we can tell the difference, you guys will most certainly be able to. It's a win-win for everyone.
I anticipated this and made a demonstration.
I made pics of all the new energy damage type consoles and tinkered with various ways of reducing the color contrast. The final product is a reasonable simulation of what the new consoles would look like to someone who is completely colorblind.
A lot of icons look too similar to each other. The tactical consoles for example all have a similar look. While it may be more 'cannon', it's harder to distinguish between them at a quick glance especially when in the middle of a battle and you have a need/greed popup you have to click. In the old system, you could EASILY tell the difference between a tetryon pulse generator, and a disruptor induction coil. Now, the only way to tell quickly is by the color and the very subtle differences in texture.
Exactly my point -- by making the new icon graphics visually identical except for color, Cryptic basically ignored the needs of those affected by various degrees of color blindness.
Cryptic could have easily color-tagged each a small bright Red, Yellow, or Blue corner dot or other mark to designate console type. This would have left the original graphic in place but add easier item identification.
You're colour-blind? You could have been dealt a tougher hand in life.
Im not colourblind, im monochromatic at stage 1, which is reducing ALL colour ranges with Fuchs Dystrophy in both eyes which also makes me 30% blind.
You gonna use that same "could have been dealt a tougher hand" line to me?
Also, why has no one from Cryptic made any sort of comment on this thread and the numerous other threads which have popped up? Obviously they know that some visually impaired people like myself are having major problems with these new icons because the "Community Moderators" have merged a load of threads and buried it out of sight in this subforum no one uses.
"You know when that shark bites, with its teeth dear... scarlet billows start to spread..."
I made pics of all the new energy damage type consoles and tinkered with various ways of reducing the color contrast. The final product is a reasonable simulation of what the new consoles would look like to someone who is completely colorblind.
There's still one glaring problem: The new icons look like cheap newsprint cartoons. >_<
I know many find them OK, but such graphics are better suited towards game environments that embrace this style, like Borderlands and its sequel. When used in STO, it simply takes away from the game's attempt to remain true to its source IP.
When used in STO, it simply takes away from the game's attempt to remain true to its source IP.
No it doesn't. The old icons didn't resemble anything ever seen in the TV show, AP mags looked like either a child's sculpture or a Christmas Cactus..... If anything the new icons look more like the sort of gadgets seen in the shows.
I made pics of all the new energy damage type consoles and tinkered with various ways of reducing the color contrast. The final product is a reasonable simulation of what the new consoles would look like to someone who is completely colorblind.
That's pretty cool actually. Could you do the same for the hull plating, alloy, and torpedo consoles too? Those are the ones I have the most trouble with.
Those energy type consoles are actually the second rendition. If you check the link in the OP here you can see the original ones. Based off of the feedback from several of us early on in this thread, Thomas actually changed them to the ones you see now in game. I find them to be adequate enough that I can tell the differences between them now. It's really the hull plating, alloy, and torpedoes that are the hardest for me.
But why do all the tac weapon consoles need to by cylinders? That's what made the older consoles neat; different weapon type had differing ways of generating their beams/cannon bolts. It made it cooler.
No it doesn't. The old icons didn't resemble anything ever seen in the TV show, AP mags looked like either a child's sculpture or a Christmas Cactus..... If anything the new icons look more like the sort of gadgets seen in the shows.
That mag regulator looked like a large, old-school transistor, while the disruptor coils actually resembled staged coil circuits. The phaser relay looked like flat box relays. Regardless, they actually looked similar to the items they represented. What do we get with the new icons? I see a bunch of studded cartoon soda cans. Cryptic didn't even try to distinguish them with unique shapes -- they just went with recolored graphics.
It's really the hull plating, alloy, and torpedoes that are the hardest for me.
You don't need to be able to tell the difference between the alloys, really (other than between all-resist alloys and Monotanium). The alloys (other than Monotanium) are the same thing, just with a slightly different design and name at different mark levels. There's less of a difference between them than between normal and Andorian phasers.
Torpedo consoles can be differentiated by the symbol in the little console monitor, just like energy consoles can be differentiated by matching the beam symbol in the middle of the conduit. They match the appropriate weapon type's beam or torpedo icon on the weapon or ability tray.
Hull plating consoles... yeah, there's nothing there for people with relevant kinds of colorblindness. There's slightly different texture patterns in addition to the color coding, but nothing that's easy to visually grab onto. These consoles should have been given strongly different plating patterns, like the old ones or the difference between Monotanium and Fleet Monotanium.
Given the overwhelmingly negative feedback being aimed at the new icon graphics, I seriously hope the Cryptic is paying attention and considering backing this change out. The idea of making console types easier to recognize is a good one, but its implementation and deployment were poorly executed with little to no feedback from the active STO community prior to going live.
Doff rarity is distinguished by a partial frame in the lower left corner. This is easier to make out than the color gradients used for items. Perhaps, a similar system could be adapted for items.
You don't need to be able to tell the difference between the alloys, really (other than between all-resist alloys and Monotanium). The alloys (other than Monotanium) are the same thing, just with a slightly different design and name at different mark levels. There's less of a difference between them than between normal and Andorian phasers.
Torpedo consoles can be differentiated by the symbol in the little console monitor, just like energy consoles can be differentiated by matching the beam symbol in the middle of the conduit. They match the appropriate weapon type's beam or torpedo icon on the weapon or ability tray.
Hull plating consoles... yeah, there's nothing there for people with relevant kinds of colorblindness. There's slightly different texture patterns in addition to the color coding, but nothing that's easy to visually grab onto. These consoles should have been given strongly different plating patterns, like the old ones or the difference between Monotanium and Fleet Monotanium.
The thing is, Monotanium and the hull plating consoles look too similar for you to differentiate at a glance, and searching for the symbols on the torpedo and energy consoles is not "at a glance". Similarly, hull plating consoles are hard to differentiate.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
The thing is, Monotanium and the hull plating consoles look too similar for you to differentiate at a glance, and searching for the symbols on the torpedo and energy consoles is not "at a glance". Similarly, hull plating consoles are hard to differentiate.
Exactly. If you have time to use a tooltip, that's fine. But when you are in combat, and the need/greed window pops up. You don't have time to use the tooltip. You need to be able to tell at a glance.
_____________________
Come join the 44th Fleet.
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Exactly. If you have time to use a tooltip, that's fine. But when you are in combat, and the need/greed window pops up. You don't have time to use the tooltip. You need to be able to tell at a glance.
Well, I can read the name at a glance. Not that the name tells me which armor does what... :P
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
the thought was nice. and the images are crisper, I spose.
but it kinda looks like two images they just mirrored and messed with the palate.
very difficult to tell the difference at a glance, especially because they're new.
seems like they jumped right into this task then a quarter of the way through they were like, 'meh' 'n hit random on the color scheme 'n called it done.
The thing is, Monotanium and the hull plating consoles look too similar for you to differentiate at a glance, and searching for the symbols on the torpedo and energy consoles is not "at a glance". Similarly, hull plating consoles are hard to differentiate.
I have no argument against the difficulty of quickly differentiating the hull plating, particularly from a colorblind perspective. The energy and torpedo consoles, however, are rather consistent in the position of their symbols.
And yet you continue to miss the overview. The Art Department is not just 'already there.' Rather, it exists because management decided so, and that it should have size X. The same management which decided the bug-fix department should have size Y. And if indeed the guys at the Art Department have so little to do, that they start overhauling a system which was about the very *last* thing in this game that needed 'fixing,' then all that really tells me, is that management alloted too many resources to X, and not to Y. Which is all the more frustrating, as it's clearly Y that people, overwhelmingly, want to see resources spent on foremost.
But we probably will keep going in circles at this. So, let's simply stick to the fact that the new icons are hard, and sometimes very hard, to distinguish from one another.
And sometimes, even if it pains you, you just have to be the person that says: "Look, John, you're a great artist; and the pictures look gorgeous! But, erm, they're sadly not entirely suitable for icons."
So what resources would you allocate away from the art department to bug fixes?
As I pointed out earlier in the thread, Cryptic employees aren't hourly -- they can't cut someone's hours and give those hours to someone else. They're all on salary, and often work long hours.
So if you want to "re-allocate resources", then what you're saying is you want to fire someone from the art department, and hire someone in systems. Who are you going to fire? The UI artist, that does all of the UI work in the game? The ship artist, so no more new ships will be added to the game? Concept artist, so the game will have no pre-production work? Cryptic's team is small, so logically their art department is going to be very small, too... which means it's already pretty lean. You aren't seeing the work of a massive group of people, you're seeing the result of 3-5 people at work, max. There's no fat on there to trim.
There's also no crossover in their jobs and training. An artist is not a debugger. What the Art Department does has no effect on systems, good or bad. It's not preventing someone from fixing bugs, and they can't help someone to fix bugs either.
Now that you've learned something, you can feel free to totally hate on the new icons for legit reasons -- they're too similar, they aren't colorblind-friendly, you think they look stupid, whatever. But don't go thinking you can just shift anything away from art right now to help systems. That's not how it works.
That's pretty cool actually. Could you do the same for the hull plating, alloy, and torpedo consoles too? Those are the ones I have the most trouble with.
Those energy type consoles are actually the second rendition. If you check the link in the OP here you can see the original ones. Based off of the feedback from several of us early on in this thread, Thomas actually changed them to the ones you see now in game. I find them to be adequate enough that I can tell the differences between them now. It's really the hull plating, alloy, and torpedoes that are the hardest for me.
That mag regulator looked like a large, old-school transistor,
as sketched by a three year old.
while the disruptor coils actually resembled staged coil circuits.
that or a six pack of sodas, which is Ironic considering you compare the new ones to soda cans.
The phaser relay looked like flat box relays.
or emergency floor lighting.
Regardless, they actually looked similar to the items they represented.
not really
What do we get with the new icons? I see a bunch of studded cartoon soda cans. Cryptic didn't even try to distinguish them with unique shapes -- they just went with recolored graphics.
They do have unique features. Granted they are shaped to make it easy to tell what type of console it is, but that's a good thing IMO. Seriously the new ones have sympols on them that match the icons for the type of weapon they buff. The old ones didn't have that.
Comments
My character Tsin'xing
I distance myself, in the stronger possible terms, from the guy who said "Could have been dealt a tougher life." What a klutz!
Still, having said that, I don't think icons should be made with the express purpose of having exclusively (nearly) blind people in mind. They should simply be easily distinguishable from one another for everyone! (For one, I suspect hgh-contrast areas, such as you suggested, would hardly be noticed by non-visually impaired people).
Anyone who's ever done any commisioned work in this area, on a professional level, will know it's an easy noob-trap to fall into: burying yourself in the art work, forgetting icons need to be functional, primarily. And one of the prime functions of an icon is to be clearly different from the rest of the lot. If not, you have a fail-icon, no matter how pretty it is.
Actually, it seems like there are even fewer people doing it now-a-days.
Used to be that when it came up on the schedule, one would see approximately 10 to 15 players dash into the Club on ESD to the NPC and dash out again...
The last few times I was there at that point, there have been maybe two or three.
I'm not saying that the change was a bad thing, but it did visibly reduce the number of players using that resource.
<shrug>
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Speaking as a color blind person, I actually agree. I don't think that the icons should be made exclusively for us. However if they were to make them more color blind/vision impaired friendly, it can only be a benefit for everyone. I mean if we can tell the difference, you guys will most certainly be able to. It's a win-win for everyone.
Mine Trap Supporter
Um, we could start with the fact he's not blind blind, the "I can't see at all" kind. That his eyes can still perceive light and his brain interpret it as an image, it's just he's missing some of the details. My dad's godfather is totally blind, totally deaf and mute to boot, and was born that way. All the things shar can see and hear are only abstract concepts to him. This is sort of a "man cries because he has no shoes till he sees someone with no feet"
What's my position?
That people should know what they're screaming about!
(paraphrased from "The Newsroom)
Come join the 44th Fleet.
startrek.44thfleet.com[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
What gave you that idea? No, I'm not color blind, but I do have a friend who is red/green color blind, so I am more sensitive to this topic than most folks. He really gets messed up by red/green traffic lights oriented horizontally >_< (yes, they are out there)
What degree of color blindness does Al Rivera have?
I made pics of all the new energy damage type consoles and tinkered with various ways of reducing the color contrast. The final product is a reasonable simulation of what the new consoles would look like to someone who is completely colorblind.
BEHOLD: http://marhawkman.deviantart.com/gallery/#/art/color-test-395357603?_sid=588a3475
My character Tsin'xing
Exactly my point -- by making the new icon graphics visually identical except for color, Cryptic basically ignored the needs of those affected by various degrees of color blindness.
Cryptic could have easily color-tagged each a small bright Red, Yellow, or Blue corner dot or other mark to designate console type. This would have left the original graphic in place but add easier item identification.
Im not colourblind, im monochromatic at stage 1, which is reducing ALL colour ranges with Fuchs Dystrophy in both eyes which also makes me 30% blind.
You gonna use that same "could have been dealt a tougher hand" line to me?
Also, why has no one from Cryptic made any sort of comment on this thread and the numerous other threads which have popped up? Obviously they know that some visually impaired people like myself are having major problems with these new icons because the "Community Moderators" have merged a load of threads and buried it out of sight in this subforum no one uses.
There's still one glaring problem: The new icons look like cheap newsprint cartoons. >_<
I know many find them OK, but such graphics are better suited towards game environments that embrace this style, like Borderlands and its sequel. When used in STO, it simply takes away from the game's attempt to remain true to its source IP.
My character Tsin'xing
-AB
That's pretty cool actually. Could you do the same for the hull plating, alloy, and torpedo consoles too? Those are the ones I have the most trouble with.
Those energy type consoles are actually the second rendition. If you check the link in the OP here you can see the original ones. Based off of the feedback from several of us early on in this thread, Thomas actually changed them to the ones you see now in game. I find them to be adequate enough that I can tell the differences between them now. It's really the hull plating, alloy, and torpedoes that are the hardest for me.
Mine Trap Supporter
That mag regulator looked like a large, old-school transistor, while the disruptor coils actually resembled staged coil circuits. The phaser relay looked like flat box relays. Regardless, they actually looked similar to the items they represented. What do we get with the new icons? I see a bunch of studded cartoon soda cans. Cryptic didn't even try to distinguish them with unique shapes -- they just went with recolored graphics.
You don't need to be able to tell the difference between the alloys, really (other than between all-resist alloys and Monotanium). The alloys (other than Monotanium) are the same thing, just with a slightly different design and name at different mark levels. There's less of a difference between them than between normal and Andorian phasers.
Torpedo consoles can be differentiated by the symbol in the little console monitor, just like energy consoles can be differentiated by matching the beam symbol in the middle of the conduit. They match the appropriate weapon type's beam or torpedo icon on the weapon or ability tray.
Hull plating consoles... yeah, there's nothing there for people with relevant kinds of colorblindness. There's slightly different texture patterns in addition to the color coding, but nothing that's easy to visually grab onto. These consoles should have been given strongly different plating patterns, like the old ones or the difference between Monotanium and Fleet Monotanium.
To those that want these removed... NO! I won't give them back now that i have them! NEEEEVAAAAAR!
The thing is, Monotanium and the hull plating consoles look too similar for you to differentiate at a glance, and searching for the symbols on the torpedo and energy consoles is not "at a glance". Similarly, hull plating consoles are hard to differentiate.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
Exactly. If you have time to use a tooltip, that's fine. But when you are in combat, and the need/greed window pops up. You don't have time to use the tooltip. You need to be able to tell at a glance.
Come join the 44th Fleet.
startrek.44thfleet.com[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Well, I can read the name at a glance. Not that the name tells me which armor does what... :P
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
but it kinda looks like two images they just mirrored and messed with the palate.
very difficult to tell the difference at a glance, especially because they're new.
seems like they jumped right into this task then a quarter of the way through they were like, 'meh' 'n hit random on the color scheme 'n called it done.
The old pictures didn't tell you, either, unless you memorized them.
I have no argument against the difficulty of quickly differentiating the hull plating, particularly from a colorblind perspective. The energy and torpedo consoles, however, are rather consistent in the position of their symbols.
So what resources would you allocate away from the art department to bug fixes?
As I pointed out earlier in the thread, Cryptic employees aren't hourly -- they can't cut someone's hours and give those hours to someone else. They're all on salary, and often work long hours.
So if you want to "re-allocate resources", then what you're saying is you want to fire someone from the art department, and hire someone in systems. Who are you going to fire? The UI artist, that does all of the UI work in the game? The ship artist, so no more new ships will be added to the game? Concept artist, so the game will have no pre-production work? Cryptic's team is small, so logically their art department is going to be very small, too... which means it's already pretty lean. You aren't seeing the work of a massive group of people, you're seeing the result of 3-5 people at work, max. There's no fat on there to trim.
There's also no crossover in their jobs and training. An artist is not a debugger. What the Art Department does has no effect on systems, good or bad. It's not preventing someone from fixing bugs, and they can't help someone to fix bugs either.
Now that you've learned something, you can feel free to totally hate on the new icons for legit reasons -- they're too similar, they aren't colorblind-friendly, you think they look stupid, whatever. But don't go thinking you can just shift anything away from art right now to help systems. That's not how it works.
the Neutronium type stuff is distinguishable by the number of layers it has. as sketched by a three year old. that or a six pack of sodas, which is Ironic considering you compare the new ones to soda cans. or emergency floor lighting. not really They do have unique features. Granted they are shaped to make it easy to tell what type of console it is, but that's a good thing IMO. Seriously the new ones have sympols on them that match the icons for the type of weapon they buff. The old ones didn't have that.
My character Tsin'xing