When LoR was in testing, I advocated for a Science trait that would have reduced the speed of any ship caught in a control power by 50% (GW, TR, TB, TBR, etc.) but instead we got the ability to reduce the CD on Photonic Fail Fleet.
That's why you use Target Engine Subsystems in conjunction with Gravity Well.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
That's why you use Target Engine Subsystems in conjunction with Gravity Well.
or do team play and drop 2 gravity wells on top of each other. no sphere can get out of that. you don't even need any points in gravity generators just 2 gravity wells and you're good
"I don't know what universe you're living in". The PvP universe, and the PvE universe. The universe where science ships like the Fleet Nova I pilot on my Sci character is just as effective as an escort, with no set gear. The universe where Science damage is joined with weapons and a synergy forms between myself, the equipment and the weapons on my Science ships.
PvE? Okay. Grav well + Iso charge + Tractor beam + Beam overload + Sensor scan + Tactical Team + EPtA + Transphasic cluster torpedo + Transphasic compressors. Try it on a Nanite Probe or Cube in CSE.
PvP: You are part of a team anyways, the team healer should be supporting you regardless of what ship you fly. Everyone knows this.
Yes, I want to talk weapons. 6 weapon slots filled with Transphasic Cluster Torpedoes, transphasic mines and a beam array or two. Shield penetrating damage of 40% plus Projectile Weapons Specialization and torpedo consoles. Add in a DPB and Tactical Team, and you have a ship that, in conjunction with the science powers, can kill a ship without taking the shields down.
I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here, lianthelia. It's clear to me your knowledge of PvP isn't thorough, and you insist on isolating one section of a synergistic style of gameplay and criticizing it, simply because it itself doesn't compare to an escort. I'm not sure what you intend to prove with such a foolish basis.
As for cruisers and science vessels... Cruisers have it worse than Science vessels, since their method of damage (pressure damage) is largely made obsolete in the "DPS race" this game's PvE has become. Cruisers are effectively team support ships now.
There is no point in arguing further with you since you obviously don't know what you're talking about...actually saying that Cruisers have it worse than Science ships is completely blind and biased opinion simply because you're obviously a Cruiser fan.
There is no way a competent Sci ship could out damage a competent Cruiser.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
sci ships> cruisers for pvp, cruiser>sci ship in pve. There really is no reason to play a sci captain or sci ship if you don't pvp. A tac in an escort with lt Cmdr sci can do all the crowd control that might be necessary in pve like NWS and can do much more damage then sci ships, rendering them useless in pve.
There is no point in arguing further with you since you obviously don't know what you're talking about...actually saying that Cruisers have it worse than Science ships is completely blind and biased opinion simply because you're obviously a Cruiser fan.
There is no way a competent Sci ship could out damage a competent Cruiser.
I obviously don't know what I'm talking about? I beg your pardon, have you done PvP before? Didn't think so, because every half decent PvP player recognizes the importance of Science vessels in teamed and non-teamed PvP. They recognize that a Science vessel can be set up to weaken enemy targets so other members of the team can swoop in and kill them off. They recognize that some of the best team heal abilities are from Science ships.
True, I am a "cruiser fan". Why would a fan try and degrade something they like? I see the truth behind cruisers in this game, and it's not pretty; in the STFs of the game, most cruisers are dead last. In PvP, they are either great team heal support ships, great independent ships in in Ker'rat, or target practice.
Let's analyse some more, since apparently, a competent Sci ship can't out-damage a competent cruiser.
This allows six beam arrays broadsiding to load Beam Overload II, along with DEM, EPtW, TT, Weapons battery. Beam overload punches through shields, and over the course of about 5-8 seconds, the hull of a Borg Raptor shreds down to nothing.
Tractor beam holds target steady. This allows a Breen transphasic torpedo (with appropriate tac consoles) to fire at the Borg Raptor. In addition, grav well is shot at the raptor, dealing exotic damage directly to the hull. Torpedo hits, mines deploy, and shield penetration deals great damage directly to the hull. Combined with grav well, this takes about 5 seconds to kill the target (starting from the hit of the torpedo).
Shield bypassing damage is far more efficient at killing starships than having to go through shields first. It's why Ker'rat is full of cloaked hit and run BoPs with transphasic loadouts. Combined with Grav Well, which can deal damage directly to the hull and offer some slowing of movement, ships are immobilized and killed without having to go through the shields first. Plus, since torpedoes need only one point of energy in the weapons, power settings can be set on auxiliary, further boosting holds from the tractor and damage from the Grav well. Cruisers cannot do that.
If you don't believe me, I am more than willing to meet up with you ingame. I have a Sci character with the Fleet Nova described above. We can 1v1, myself versus your competent cruiser, and see where it takes us.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
I obviously don't know what I'm talking about? I beg your pardon, have you done PvP before? Didn't think so, because every half decent PvP player recognizes the importance of Science vessels in teamed and non-teamed PvP. They recognize that a Science vessel can be set up to weaken enemy targets so other members of the team can swoop in and kill them off. They recognize that some of the best team heal abilities are from Science ships.
True, I am a "cruiser fan". Why would a fan try and degrade something they like? I see the truth behind cruisers in this game, and it's not pretty; in the STFs of the game, most cruisers are dead last. In PvP, they are either great team heal support ships, great independent ships in in Ker'rat, or target practice.
Let's analyse some more, since apparently, a competent Sci ship can't out-damage a competent cruiser.
This allows six beam arrays broadsiding to load Beam Overload II, along with DEM, EPtW, TT, Weapons battery. Beam overload punches through shields, and over the course of about 5-8 seconds, the hull of a Borg Raptor shreds down to nothing.
Tractor beam holds target steady. This allows a Breen transphasic torpedo (with appropriate tac consoles) to fire at the Borg Raptor. In addition, grav well is shot at the raptor, dealing exotic damage directly to the hull. Torpedo hits, mines deploy, and shield penetration deals great damage directly to the hull. Combined with grav well, this takes about 5 seconds to kill the target (starting from the hit of the torpedo).
Shield bypassing damage is far more efficient at killing starships than having to go through shields first. It's why Ker'rat is full of cloaked hit and run BoPs with transphasic loadouts. Combined with Grav Well, which can deal damage directly to the hull and offer some slowing of movement, ships are immobilized and killed without having to go through the shields first. Plus, since torpedoes need only one point of energy in the weapons, power settings can be set on auxiliary, further boosting holds from the tractor and damage from the Grav well. Cruisers cannot do that.
If you don't believe me, I am more than willing to meet up with you ingame. I have a Sci character with the Fleet Nova described above. We can 1v1, myself versus your competent cruiser, and see where it takes us.
You're funny...you really are! You know all of this can be done by a Escort or Sci ship...your little example earlier in the thread
"Grav well + Iso charge + Tractor beam + Beam overload + Sensor scan + Tactical Team + EPtA + Transphasic cluster torpedo + Transphasic compressors"
All of those are easily taken by a Cruiser or Escort and can use them to a stronger effect. I think you're living in pre f2p with the exotic damage to the hull part...ever since the nerfs all Science abilities that do damage do kinetic damage so almost all of the damage is mitigated by shields so that tells me you don't know what you're talking about. You can do all Transphasic mining in a Cruiser or Escort just as easily.
Second I don't know where you're getting all of this talk about PvP, I never said I was a expert nor did I say Science is useless in PvP...Science does have a niche build that can be effective. But that build has nothing to do with any of the Science abilities that actually do damage. Why is that?
Because GW in pvp is easily breakable...you don't see Tyken's Rift because it too is easily to avoid and its power drain is a laugh. You don't see Tachyon Beam or Charged Particle Burst except rarely as a decloaking ability...because power insulators make them useless.
I'm starting to wonder if you know how to fly a Cruiser right...BO? Why would someone use BO with a Beam Array? Not to mention you're wasting DEM if you're going with BO to punch right through the shields.
Last time I checked STF's don't comprise of killing a single Raptor.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
If you consider using all abilities that you have to be able to catch 2 probes before they reach a gate or transformer "maximum effectiveness", then I guess Science ships are fine sure... :rolleyes: Of course a great pilot will still outdo most average players even in Science ships, but I really have to wonder how you define maximum effectiveness... Healing someone's shield for 2k hitpoints or draining a cube's energy by 35 is in no universe as effective and useful to the team as another escort tearing up things with 15k DPS.
This is very true. I'm an engineer, but love to do science-y stuff too. But no amount of 'clever' energy siphons, tractoring (with siphon), gravity wells, tykens, and what not, can ever come close to even saying 'effective,' when a 15k DPS Scimitar kills that Cube for you in a matter of seconds. This is reality.
The problem is, that talking about 'maximum effectiveness,' by itself, is kinda pointless. If by 'maximum effectiveness' people refer to situations where raw DPS is called for, then sure, Tact Captains in Escorts will always win. Those same Captains will know, however, that a good Science Captain, in PvP, can be deadly. If a couple of Science vessels converge on you, bleeding you dry, all your shiny 125 weps power the Borg are kind enough to leave untouched, will be as good as gone, along with your shields and everything else. And then you die. The best PvP pilots I know are never cocky about sci vessels.
In PvE, however, your opponent is stupid; up the being full-blown TRIBBLE, really. They don't restore shields, they don't pulll a Miracle Worker, they don't heal hull; and they just sit there until they reach 1% hull; and then they die. Blind force against a blind enemy, so to speak, works best in those case, for sure.
You're funny...you really are! You know all of this can be done by a Escort or Sci ship...your little example earlier in the thread
"Grav well + Iso charge + Tractor beam + Beam overload + Sensor scan + Tactical Team + EPtA + Transphasic cluster torpedo + Transphasic compressors"
All of those are easily taken by a Cruiser or Escort and can use them to a stronger effect. I think you're living in pre f2p with the exotic damage to the hull part...ever since the nerfs all Science abilities that do damage do kinetic damage so almost all of the damage is mitigated by shields so that tells me you don't know what you're talking about. You can do all Transphasic mining in a Cruiser or Escort just as easily.
Second I don't know where you're getting all of this talk about PvP, I never said I was a expert nor did I say Science is useless in PvP...Science does have a niche build that can be effective. But that build has nothing to do with any of the Science abilities that actually do damage. Why is that?
Because GW in pvp is easily breakable...you don't see Tyken's Rift because it too is easily to avoid and its power drain is a laugh. You don't see Tachyon Beam or Charged Particle Burst except rarely as a decloaking ability...because power insulators make them useless.
I'm starting to wonder if you know how to fly a Cruiser right...BO? Why would someone use BO with a Beam Array? Not to mention you're wasting DEM if you're going with BO to punch right through the shields.
Last time I checked STF's don't comprise of killing a single Raptor.
I'm glad you find the truth funny. I certainly get a kick out of laughing at how this game works.
"All of those are easily taken by a Cruiser or Escort and can use them to a stronger effect. ". Wrong. When does a Cruiser or Escort gain access to Grav well 3? Or other high level Science abilities?
As for exotic damage, it is still applicable, and in fact, I have used this to great effect in both PvE and PvP. If "almost all" of the damage done by Shield Penetrating weapons/abilities are mitigated, as you claim they are, then why are these builds still used to great effect? This tells me that you don't know what you're talking about.
As for your second point, you are completely incorrect. There's a guy running around this forums named "saxfire2" (he has the avatar of a skull of some sort). I have been conversing with this person for the last 6 months, and one of the builds he has managed to create and share with me is a Partigen build (Partigen means Particle generator, as in Gravity Well and other abilities that damage via exotic damage). In numerous cases, he has taken a starship armed with Gravity well and decimated tough player starships. And you say this doesn't deal damage?
And yet again, for the fourth time, I reiterate my point. It is a synergy. NOT JUST ONE ABILITY BY ITSELF. Gravity well needs to be paired up with other movement disablers in order for the gradual exotic damage to degrade the hull.
As for flying a cruiser, I introduce you to a Doff that gives you 30% increased shield penetration on use of Beam Overload (percentage chance to hit). This allows any subsequent attacks after Beam Overload to deal some damage straight to the hull, which is useful since your enemies are usually turning and covering their exposed hull with other shield facings. Joined with DEM, this makes a broadsiding cruiser deal a lot of damage directly to the hull.
As for the single Raptor, it was an example. Again, I offer a 1v1 to prove that Science vessels aren't as useless as you claim they are.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
I'm glad you find the truth funny. I certainly get a kick out of laughing at how this game works.
"All of those are easily taken by a Cruiser or Escort and can use them to a stronger effect. ". Wrong. When does a Cruiser or Escort gain access to Grav well 3? Or other high level Science abilities?
As for exotic damage, it is still applicable, and in fact, I have used this to great effect in both PvE and PvP. If "almost all" of the damage done by Shield Penetrating weapons/abilities are mitigated, as you claim they are, then why are these builds still used to great effect? This tells me that you don't know what you're talking about.
As for your second point, you are completely incorrect. There's a guy running around this forums named "saxfire2" (he has the avatar of a skull of some sort). I have been conversing with this person for the last 6 months, and one of the builds he has managed to create and share with me is a Partigen build (Partigen means Particle generator, as in Gravity Well and other abilities that damage via exotic damage). In numerous cases, he has taken a starship armed with Gravity well and decimated tough player starships. And you say this doesn't deal damage?
And yet again, for the fourth time, I reiterate my point. It is a synergy. NOT JUST ONE ABILITY BY ITSELF. Gravity well needs to be paired up with other movement disablers in order for the gradual exotic damage to degrade the hull.
As for flying a cruiser, I introduce you to a Doff that gives you 30% increased shield penetration on use of Beam Overload (percentage chance to hit). This allows any subsequent attacks after Beam Overload to deal some damage straight to the hull, which is useful since your enemies are usually turning and covering their exposed hull with other shield facings. Joined with DEM, this makes a broadsiding cruiser deal a lot of damage directly to the hull.
As for the single Raptor, it was an example. Again, I offer a 1v1 to prove that Science vessels aren't as useless as you claim they are.
I suppose you're right and all of the numerous people who agree that Science sucks is wrong. Better yet I suppose the game is wrong...I suppose it is wrong when it says my Gravity well and Tyken's Rift do kinetic damage.
You're right and everything else including the game its self is wrong! :rolleyes:
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
Better yet I suppose the game is wrong...I suppose it is wrong when it says my Gravity well and Tyken's Rift do kinetic damage.
The game is what it is, and people base their opinions or facts on the game. The game itself is just what it is.
As for the descriptions telling you that Gravwell and Tyken's do kinetic damage, they in fact do, but the extra damage (damage added on to the base damage) comes from points in Partigens (exotic damage). As stated here and here.
Basically, whatever kinetic damage Gravity Well does on its own, additional exotic damage comes from consoles, abilities, specs, and passives that increase partigen damage.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
The game is what it is, and people base their opinions or facts on the game. The game itself is just what it is.
As for the descriptions telling you that Gravwell and Tyken's do kinetic damage, they in fact do, but the extra damage (damage added on to the base damage) comes from points in Partigens (exotic damage). As stated here and here.
Basically, whatever kinetic damage Gravity Well does on its own, additional exotic damage comes from consoles, abilities, specs, and passives that increase partigen damage.
I'm done...because you don't know what you're talking about and you seem to full of yourself to say you're right and everyone else is wrong.
To say that Cruisers are weaker than Sci ships and your lousy Cruiser build speaks volumes.
Particle generators do add to damage but it doesn't add anything but more kinetic damage...
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
I'm done...because you don't know what you're talking about and you seem to full of yourself to say you're right and everyone else is wrong.
To say that Cruisers are weaker than Sci ships and your lousy Cruiser build speaks volumes.
Particle generators do add to damage but it doesn't add anything but more kinetic damage...
I never said I was right. I said that anyone who backs your claim that Science abilities on their own are weak, are wrong. It's as simple as that, a lot of people isolate those abilities and judge them, when in fact, it is the synergy that defines the science ship. Not just one component.
Feel free to leave. I will still be here discussing the reality of Science ships in this game, PvE OR PvP.
As for a lousy cruiser build, I don't typically build cruisers for offense. I admit, I'm more of a team heal cruiser captain. For the third time, feel free to 1v1 me sometime. I'd like to see what your lovely offensive cruiser can do, compared to my science ship. Offer stands, it's up to you whether you want to prove your point right, or admit the possibility that perhaps your claim has flaws.
And the source of the damage really doesn't matter to me; the end result matters most. And the end result is, damage from Grav Wells still counts when used in conjunction with other Shield Penetrating damage such as Transphasics and Tractor damage.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
I never said I was right. I said that anyone who backs your claim that Science abilities on their own are weak, are wrong. It's as simple as that, a lot of people isolate those abilities and judge them, when in fact, it is the synergy that defines the science ship. Not just one component.
Feel free to leave. I will still be here discussing the reality of Science ships in this game, PvE OR PvP.
As for a lousy cruiser build, I don't typically build cruisers for offense. I admit, I'm more of a team heal cruiser captain. For the third time, feel free to 1v1 me sometime. I'd like to see what your lovely offensive cruiser can do, compared to my science ship. Offer stands, it's up to you whether you want to prove your point right, or admit the possibility that perhaps your claim has flaws.
And the source of the damage really doesn't matter to me; the end result matters most. And the end result is, damage from Grav Wells still counts when used in conjunction with other Shield Penetrating damage such as Transphasics and Tractor damage.
I didn't say I was leaving here, I'm just finished with you pretty much after this. I don't fly Cruisers but that doesn't mean I don't pay attention...the fact that you claim Cruisers are weak and you ignore their strongest ability says enough.
None of the power from your little chain comes from Science, sure Science holds it in place but all of your power is from Tactical and Transphasic.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
I didn't say I was leaving here, I'm just finished with you pretty much after this. I don't fly Cruisers but that doesn't mean I don't pay attention...the fact that you claim Cruisers are weak and you ignore their strongest ability says enough.
None of the power from your little chain comes from Science, sure Science holds it in place but all of your power is from Tactical and Transphasic.
And please tell me, what is a cruiser's strongest ability. Because, as a captain of a PvP heal boat cruiser, I know its strength is in survivability, pressure damage, and of course, supporting other vessels. If you want me to ignore all of these things, I can change the example accordingly.
Besides, I'm not even sure how we managed to stray into cruisers anyways.
As for the chain, I'm getting tired of saying it over and over again. It is not one component, it is all the components together that define how effective a ship is. Just like tac abilities require cannons to deal damage, science abilities require additional support in the form of weapons and captain level debuffs to deal their damage.
Just because the inner workings are different, doesn't mean the Science ship is any less capable than any other type of starship. Its a different playing method, and trying to force a square peg into a round hole will not work.
Getting some rest, I will continue this discussion tomorrow.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
The thing you are both overlooking is that damage is not the primary component of any science ability, the damage is just a side effect, for example my gravity well 3 does about 1000 damage per tick, that's great, or rather it would be if the targets didn't fly away from a -0.57 repel as if it wasn't there.
All I want is to see the primary components buffed, so I would increase the drain effect of a lot of drain skills to counter the multiple insulators buffs, increase thee pull of gravity well by 50% and give it a tractor beam type hold within 1km of the centre because you can still evasives or EPtE out of them. I would increase Photonic shockwave's disable time to make it more meaningful, I mean, by the time your ship stops flying away from the user your boff skills are back, I would give Viral back the ability to systematically shut down the ship rather than attacking 1 system at a time (the doff proc would only attack one and them ware off), you get the idea...
The only damage I would buff where science skills are concerned is when it comes to the really small ones like Tractor beam and Tykens, both of which I would buff by 100%.
Is a buff to things even NPCs can currently not notice really too much and unfair to ask?
All good ideas. I'd like to see them change the mechanics of how repulse and holds work so that ships would actually have to use EPTE to get away instead of evasive maneuvers that way it would actually cost a slot.
I'd also like to see the pushback and holds of abilities be 0 if they don't have any grav gen or at least the basic 9. I'd like to see the damage output of TR increased range, and to make it drain engine power the most so that enemies don't just fly off. (that's what happened in the show btw)
I'd love to see them all changed to exotic damage so that they benefit from the shield penetration and the exotic damage bonus of science captains.
And I'd love to see them change the way these abilities work so that when you have maxed out stats as I do in part gen for example it should be easily as effective as the NPC's using the same attacks on us. For example, the FBP doesn't come anywhere close to what Mobs do to us, and neither does TR or GW3.
The thing you are both overlooking is that damage is not the primary component of any science ability, the damage is just a side effect, for example my gravity well 3 does about 1000 damage per tick, that's great, or rather it would be if the targets didn't fly away from a -0.57 repel as if it wasn't there.
All I want is to see the primary components buffed, so I would increase the drain effect of a lot of drain skills to counter the multiple insulators buffs, increase thee pull of gravity well by 50% and give it a tractor beam type hold within 1km of the centre because you can still evasives or EPtE out of them. I would increase Photonic shockwave's disable time to make it more meaningful, I mean, by the time your ship stops flying away from the user your boff skills are back, I would give Viral back the ability to systematically shut down the ship rather than attacking 1 system at a time (the doff proc would only attack one and them ware off), you get the idea...
The only damage I would buff where science skills are concerned is when it comes to the really small ones like Tractor beam and Tykens, both of which I would buff by 100%.
Is a buff to things even NPCs can currently not notice really too much and unfair to ask?
The thing you are both overlooking is that damage is not the primary component of any science ability, the damage is just a side effect, for example my gravity well 3 does about 1000 damage per tick, that's great, or rather it would be if the targets didn't fly away from a -0.57 repel as if it wasn't there.
All I want is to see the primary components buffed, so I would increase the drain effect of a lot of drain skills to counter the multiple insulators buffs, increase thee pull of gravity well by 50% and give it a tractor beam type hold within 1km of the centre because you can still evasives or EPtE out of them. I would increase Photonic shockwave's disable time to make it more meaningful, I mean, by the time your ship stops flying away from the user your boff skills are back, I would give Viral back the ability to systematically shut down the ship rather than attacking 1 system at a time (the doff proc would only attack one and them ware off), you get the idea...
The only damage I would buff where science skills are concerned is when it comes to the really small ones like Tractor beam and Tykens, both of which I would buff by 100%.
Is a buff to things even NPCs can currently not notice really too much and unfair to ask?
I know its not, but since the game seems to be about damage and we know Cruisers can do good damage in PvE why not Science? I mean its not like the debuffs do dip so why should science be stuck to sucking in PvE?
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
The thing you are both overlooking is that damage is not the primary component of any science ability, the damage is just a side effect, for example my gravity well 3 does about 1000 damage per tick, that's great, or rather it would be if the targets didn't fly away from a -0.57 repel as if it wasn't there.
Exactly. Flying Science (involving science powers) is a different ball game than flying the raider, damage dealer or tank/team healer.
All I want is to see the primary components buffed, so I would increase the drain effect of a lot of drain skills to counter the multiple insulators buffs, increase thee pull of gravity well by 50% and give it a tractor beam type hold within 1km of the centre because you can still evasives or EPtE out of them. I would increase Photonic shockwave's disable time to make it more meaningful, I mean, by the time your ship stops flying away from the user your boff skills are back, I would give Viral back the ability to systematically shut down the ship rather than attacking 1 system at a time (the doff proc would only attack one and them ware off), you get the idea...
The only damage I would buff where science skills are concerned is when it comes to the really small ones like Tractor beam and Tykens, both of which I would buff by 100%.
Is a buff to things even NPCs can currently not notice really too much and unfair to ask?
I think it's fair in the case of Tyken' Rift, to bump up either the drain or the damage by a significant amount. As for tractor dealing more damage, it's a tractor beam, it is meant to immobilize. Perhaps a quadratic increasing curve of damage should be implemented on the tractor beam based on target speed (the faster you try and push against the tractor the more damage is done).
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
I know its not, but since the game seems to be about damage and we know Cruisers can do good damage in PvE why not Science? I mean its not like the debuffs do dip so why should science be stuck to sucking in PvE?
First off, the game does not revolve completely around damage. It's a common misconception. CC and team healing are the two roles that come to mind, which are very important no matter what PvE or PvP content you are playing in. (After all, your escort is bound to blow up sometime. It's more efficient to have someone to back you up, so you can continue to deal your high damage output.)
Second, yet again (counting 5 now), you talk only of debuffs. Part of the whole Science ship are weapons. Comparing just the science abilities against a whole escort is unfair to Science vessels.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
In PvE
A sci character in a sci ship is less than effective Sci powers are gimped that bad in PvE
A Sci character is better off in a escort or cruiser
A Tac character can run a sci ship better and do a ton more dps in a sci ship over a sci character
DPS is so high now CC powers arnt needed
A good tank on the team means no one needs healing except maybe the tank once and a while
My Sci character uis currently in a cruiser and no one on the team takes any damage Its all focused on me
sub nuke sensor scan plasma hyperflux means insta pop to most stationary targets
plasmonic leach has increased everyones Dps now so sci powers even if woking arnt even needed in PvE
What we need is a DPS reduction across the board of about 50% regeneration about 75%
its a mess anyway its looked at
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
In PvE
A sci character in a sci ship is less than effective. Sci powers are gimped that bad in PvE Again, false, it's a combination of CC/Partigen and weapons that delivers the whole experience.
A Sci character is better off in a escort or cruiser Perhaps, if that Sci character is not specced in partigen or graviton.
A Tac character can run a sci ship better and do a ton more dps in a sci ship over a sci character True, although Tac captains do not get access to the Sensor Scan.
DPS is so high now CC powers arnt needed False, CC is always needed when your DPS teammates blow up.
A good tank on the team means no one needs healing except maybe the tank once and a while True, tanks have no place in PvE. Team heal cruisers however are very useful.
My Sci character uis currently in a cruiser and no one on the team takes any damage Its all focused on me
sub nuke sensor scan plasma hyperflux means insta pop to most stationary targets
plasmonic leach has increased everyones Dps now so sci powers even if woking arnt even needed in PvE False, CC, etc are needed to control enemy groups.
What we need is a DPS reduction across the board of about 50% regeneration about 75%
its a mess anyway its looked at It's not DPS reduction, it's a retooling of how the old Trinity system works, that needs to be adjusted.
Comments in yellow.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
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I think it's fair in the case of Tyken' Rift, to bump up either the drain or the damage by a significant amount.
Well as it already does about 300 damage per tick for me, which I combine with a tractor beam currently for a total of 400 per tick overall, I would rather have the drain increase.
As for tractor dealing more damage, it's a tractor beam, it is meant to immobilize. Perhaps a quadratic increasing curve of damage should be implemented on the tractor beam based on target speed (the faster you try and push against the tractor the more damage is done).
I'm not disputing that it is a hold by design (I said that in the opening of the post) but I think giving it's small amount of damage a small buff (100% of 87 being rather small in the grand scheme of things) wouldn't do any harm. That said I could get behind the idea of damage increase based on target speed.
It's especially bad on NPC ships because they turn into death rays (especially if you're flying a shuttle or small ship). I had my Ambassador class ship reduced to about 10% hull EXCLUSIVELY by tractor beam damage from a Tac Cube (on normal). It's not supposed to work that way.
NPCs don't count, we all know that they have a total disregard for the rules of the game, I mean, show me a player who can do in excess of 200k damage with a singular torpedo to a fully buffed player through shields.
Also, I don't know how a normal tac cube can take an Ambi from 100% to 10% hull with a tractor beam alone, there are only 3 things I can think of to do that:-
1: You did something wrong
2: You did HSN before the nerfs
3: A bug
It wasn't one tractor, it was a series of them. It would lock me down then fire weapons at the others in the team. At the time I didn't have an escape power slotted (Polarize Hull, etc), so I was stuck with it.
That sounds a lot like HSN pre-nerf, I miss those days when we had a FUN mission to play.
On note of the lacking escape power, evasives is a universal escape power, point the ship away from the tractor user and hit the evasives button and when you hit the 5km mark you're free.
Of course you're right. That our enemies don't play by the same rules we do is THE biggest peeve I have about this (or any) game.
This is the main reason I turned to pvp, they may do annoying stuff and super high spike DPS but at least they have to do it within the rules of the game.
I don't mind the enemy having powerful abilities, but when I have the SAME abilities, they should operate the same way.
For instance, I'm a Human Captain, why does that Terran Empire Human Captain have 10 times my health and shielding, and why does his phaser do 5 times as much damage as mine? He's the same race and experience level, we should be the same in capability.
That Terran Empire Captain also doesn't command the wide variety of abilities you do nor does it use any real tactics like you might.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
How much more interesting would PvE be if the enemy ships were the same as ours, with the same array of powers and abilities? Even if they used weaker tactics, it would be MUCH more interesting (and better preparation for when you DO PvP).
Comments
That's why you use Target Engine Subsystems in conjunction with Gravity Well.
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or do team play and drop 2 gravity wells on top of each other. no sphere can get out of that. you don't even need any points in gravity generators just 2 gravity wells and you're good
That doesn't work atm, with EptE so bugged that everyone is spamming it.
There is no point in arguing further with you since you obviously don't know what you're talking about...actually saying that Cruisers have it worse than Science ships is completely blind and biased opinion simply because you're obviously a Cruiser fan.
There is no way a competent Sci ship could out damage a competent Cruiser.
I obviously don't know what I'm talking about? I beg your pardon, have you done PvP before? Didn't think so, because every half decent PvP player recognizes the importance of Science vessels in teamed and non-teamed PvP. They recognize that a Science vessel can be set up to weaken enemy targets so other members of the team can swoop in and kill them off. They recognize that some of the best team heal abilities are from Science ships.
True, I am a "cruiser fan". Why would a fan try and degrade something they like? I see the truth behind cruisers in this game, and it's not pretty; in the STFs of the game, most cruisers are dead last. In PvP, they are either great team heal support ships, great independent ships in in Ker'rat, or target practice.
Let's analyse some more, since apparently, a competent Sci ship can't out-damage a competent cruiser.
Fleet Assault Cruiser: LtCmdr Tac, Lt Tac, Cmdr Eng, Lt Eng, Lt Uni
4/2/4 console layout
This allows six beam arrays broadsiding to load Beam Overload II, along with DEM, EPtW, TT, Weapons battery. Beam overload punches through shields, and over the course of about 5-8 seconds, the hull of a Borg Raptor shreds down to nothing.
Fleet Science Vessel: LtCmdr Tac, Lt Eng, Cmdr Sci, Lt Sci, Ens Sci
3/4/3 console layout
Tractor beam holds target steady. This allows a Breen transphasic torpedo (with appropriate tac consoles) to fire at the Borg Raptor. In addition, grav well is shot at the raptor, dealing exotic damage directly to the hull. Torpedo hits, mines deploy, and shield penetration deals great damage directly to the hull. Combined with grav well, this takes about 5 seconds to kill the target (starting from the hit of the torpedo).
Shield bypassing damage is far more efficient at killing starships than having to go through shields first. It's why Ker'rat is full of cloaked hit and run BoPs with transphasic loadouts. Combined with Grav Well, which can deal damage directly to the hull and offer some slowing of movement, ships are immobilized and killed without having to go through the shields first. Plus, since torpedoes need only one point of energy in the weapons, power settings can be set on auxiliary, further boosting holds from the tractor and damage from the Grav well. Cruisers cannot do that.
If you don't believe me, I am more than willing to meet up with you ingame. I have a Sci character with the Fleet Nova described above. We can 1v1, myself versus your competent cruiser, and see where it takes us.
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You're funny...you really are! You know all of this can be done by a Escort or Sci ship...your little example earlier in the thread
"Grav well + Iso charge + Tractor beam + Beam overload + Sensor scan + Tactical Team + EPtA + Transphasic cluster torpedo + Transphasic compressors"
All of those are easily taken by a Cruiser or Escort and can use them to a stronger effect. I think you're living in pre f2p with the exotic damage to the hull part...ever since the nerfs all Science abilities that do damage do kinetic damage so almost all of the damage is mitigated by shields so that tells me you don't know what you're talking about. You can do all Transphasic mining in a Cruiser or Escort just as easily.
Second I don't know where you're getting all of this talk about PvP, I never said I was a expert nor did I say Science is useless in PvP...Science does have a niche build that can be effective. But that build has nothing to do with any of the Science abilities that actually do damage. Why is that?
Because GW in pvp is easily breakable...you don't see Tyken's Rift because it too is easily to avoid and its power drain is a laugh. You don't see Tachyon Beam or Charged Particle Burst except rarely as a decloaking ability...because power insulators make them useless.
I'm starting to wonder if you know how to fly a Cruiser right...BO? Why would someone use BO with a Beam Array? Not to mention you're wasting DEM if you're going with BO to punch right through the shields.
Last time I checked STF's don't comprise of killing a single Raptor.
This is very true. I'm an engineer, but love to do science-y stuff too. But no amount of 'clever' energy siphons, tractoring (with siphon), gravity wells, tykens, and what not, can ever come close to even saying 'effective,' when a 15k DPS Scimitar kills that Cube for you in a matter of seconds. This is reality.
The problem is, that talking about 'maximum effectiveness,' by itself, is kinda pointless. If by 'maximum effectiveness' people refer to situations where raw DPS is called for, then sure, Tact Captains in Escorts will always win. Those same Captains will know, however, that a good Science Captain, in PvP, can be deadly. If a couple of Science vessels converge on you, bleeding you dry, all your shiny 125 weps power the Borg are kind enough to leave untouched, will be as good as gone, along with your shields and everything else. And then you die. The best PvP pilots I know are never cocky about sci vessels.
In PvE, however, your opponent is stupid; up the being full-blown TRIBBLE, really. They don't restore shields, they don't pulll a Miracle Worker, they don't heal hull; and they just sit there until they reach 1% hull; and then they die. Blind force against a blind enemy, so to speak, works best in those case, for sure.
I'm glad you find the truth funny. I certainly get a kick out of laughing at how this game works.
"All of those are easily taken by a Cruiser or Escort and can use them to a stronger effect. ". Wrong. When does a Cruiser or Escort gain access to Grav well 3? Or other high level Science abilities?
As for exotic damage, it is still applicable, and in fact, I have used this to great effect in both PvE and PvP. If "almost all" of the damage done by Shield Penetrating weapons/abilities are mitigated, as you claim they are, then why are these builds still used to great effect? This tells me that you don't know what you're talking about.
As for your second point, you are completely incorrect. There's a guy running around this forums named "saxfire2" (he has the avatar of a skull of some sort). I have been conversing with this person for the last 6 months, and one of the builds he has managed to create and share with me is a Partigen build (Partigen means Particle generator, as in Gravity Well and other abilities that damage via exotic damage). In numerous cases, he has taken a starship armed with Gravity well and decimated tough player starships. And you say this doesn't deal damage?
And yet again, for the fourth time, I reiterate my point. It is a synergy. NOT JUST ONE ABILITY BY ITSELF. Gravity well needs to be paired up with other movement disablers in order for the gradual exotic damage to degrade the hull.
As for flying a cruiser, I introduce you to a Doff that gives you 30% increased shield penetration on use of Beam Overload (percentage chance to hit). This allows any subsequent attacks after Beam Overload to deal some damage straight to the hull, which is useful since your enemies are usually turning and covering their exposed hull with other shield facings. Joined with DEM, this makes a broadsiding cruiser deal a lot of damage directly to the hull.
As for the single Raptor, it was an example. Again, I offer a 1v1 to prove that Science vessels aren't as useless as you claim they are.
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I suppose you're right and all of the numerous people who agree that Science sucks is wrong. Better yet I suppose the game is wrong...I suppose it is wrong when it says my Gravity well and Tyken's Rift do kinetic damage.
You're right and everything else including the game its self is wrong! :rolleyes:
The game is what it is, and people base their opinions or facts on the game. The game itself is just what it is.
As for the descriptions telling you that Gravwell and Tyken's do kinetic damage, they in fact do, but the extra damage (damage added on to the base damage) comes from points in Partigens (exotic damage). As stated here and here.
Basically, whatever kinetic damage Gravity Well does on its own, additional exotic damage comes from consoles, abilities, specs, and passives that increase partigen damage.
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I'm done...because you don't know what you're talking about and you seem to full of yourself to say you're right and everyone else is wrong.
To say that Cruisers are weaker than Sci ships and your lousy Cruiser build speaks volumes.
Particle generators do add to damage but it doesn't add anything but more kinetic damage...
I never said I was right. I said that anyone who backs your claim that Science abilities on their own are weak, are wrong. It's as simple as that, a lot of people isolate those abilities and judge them, when in fact, it is the synergy that defines the science ship. Not just one component.
Feel free to leave. I will still be here discussing the reality of Science ships in this game, PvE OR PvP.
As for a lousy cruiser build, I don't typically build cruisers for offense. I admit, I'm more of a team heal cruiser captain. For the third time, feel free to 1v1 me sometime. I'd like to see what your lovely offensive cruiser can do, compared to my science ship. Offer stands, it's up to you whether you want to prove your point right, or admit the possibility that perhaps your claim has flaws.
And the source of the damage really doesn't matter to me; the end result matters most. And the end result is, damage from Grav Wells still counts when used in conjunction with other Shield Penetrating damage such as Transphasics and Tractor damage.
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I didn't say I was leaving here, I'm just finished with you pretty much after this. I don't fly Cruisers but that doesn't mean I don't pay attention...the fact that you claim Cruisers are weak and you ignore their strongest ability says enough.
None of the power from your little chain comes from Science, sure Science holds it in place but all of your power is from Tactical and Transphasic.
And please tell me, what is a cruiser's strongest ability. Because, as a captain of a PvP heal boat cruiser, I know its strength is in survivability, pressure damage, and of course, supporting other vessels. If you want me to ignore all of these things, I can change the example accordingly.
Besides, I'm not even sure how we managed to stray into cruisers anyways.
As for the chain, I'm getting tired of saying it over and over again. It is not one component, it is all the components together that define how effective a ship is. Just like tac abilities require cannons to deal damage, science abilities require additional support in the form of weapons and captain level debuffs to deal their damage.
Just because the inner workings are different, doesn't mean the Science ship is any less capable than any other type of starship. Its a different playing method, and trying to force a square peg into a round hole will not work.
Getting some rest, I will continue this discussion tomorrow.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
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All I want is to see the primary components buffed, so I would increase the drain effect of a lot of drain skills to counter the multiple insulators buffs, increase thee pull of gravity well by 50% and give it a tractor beam type hold within 1km of the centre because you can still evasives or EPtE out of them. I would increase Photonic shockwave's disable time to make it more meaningful, I mean, by the time your ship stops flying away from the user your boff skills are back, I would give Viral back the ability to systematically shut down the ship rather than attacking 1 system at a time (the doff proc would only attack one and them ware off), you get the idea...
The only damage I would buff where science skills are concerned is when it comes to the really small ones like Tractor beam and Tykens, both of which I would buff by 100%.
Is a buff to things even NPCs can currently not notice really too much and unfair to ask?
I'd also like to see the pushback and holds of abilities be 0 if they don't have any grav gen or at least the basic 9. I'd like to see the damage output of TR increased range, and to make it drain engine power the most so that enemies don't just fly off. (that's what happened in the show btw)
I'd love to see them all changed to exotic damage so that they benefit from the shield penetration and the exotic damage bonus of science captains.
And I'd love to see them change the way these abilities work so that when you have maxed out stats as I do in part gen for example it should be easily as effective as the NPC's using the same attacks on us. For example, the FBP doesn't come anywhere close to what Mobs do to us, and neither does TR or GW3.
I know its not, but since the game seems to be about damage and we know Cruisers can do good damage in PvE why not Science? I mean its not like the debuffs do dip so why should science be stuck to sucking in PvE?
I think it's fair in the case of Tyken' Rift, to bump up either the drain or the damage by a significant amount. As for tractor dealing more damage, it's a tractor beam, it is meant to immobilize. Perhaps a quadratic increasing curve of damage should be implemented on the tractor beam based on target speed (the faster you try and push against the tractor the more damage is done).
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First off, the game does not revolve completely around damage. It's a common misconception. CC and team healing are the two roles that come to mind, which are very important no matter what PvE or PvP content you are playing in. (After all, your escort is bound to blow up sometime. It's more efficient to have someone to back you up, so you can continue to deal your high damage output.)
Second, yet again (counting 5 now), you talk only of debuffs. Part of the whole Science ship are weapons. Comparing just the science abilities against a whole escort is unfair to Science vessels.
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A sci character in a sci ship is less than effective Sci powers are gimped that bad in PvE
A Sci character is better off in a escort or cruiser
A Tac character can run a sci ship better and do a ton more dps in a sci ship over a sci character
DPS is so high now CC powers arnt needed
A good tank on the team means no one needs healing except maybe the tank once and a while
My Sci character uis currently in a cruiser and no one on the team takes any damage Its all focused on me
sub nuke sensor scan plasma hyperflux means insta pop to most stationary targets
plasmonic leach has increased everyones Dps now so sci powers even if woking arnt even needed in PvE
What we need is a DPS reduction across the board of about 50% regeneration about 75%
its a mess anyway its looked at
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
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Well as it already does about 300 damage per tick for me, which I combine with a tractor beam currently for a total of 400 per tick overall, I would rather have the drain increase.
I'm not disputing that it is a hold by design (I said that in the opening of the post) but I think giving it's small amount of damage a small buff (100% of 87 being rather small in the grand scheme of things) wouldn't do any harm. That said I could get behind the idea of damage increase based on target speed.
NPCs don't count, we all know that they have a total disregard for the rules of the game, I mean, show me a player who can do in excess of 200k damage with a singular torpedo to a fully buffed player through shields.
Also, I don't know how a normal tac cube can take an Ambi from 100% to 10% hull with a tractor beam alone, there are only 3 things I can think of to do that:-
1: You did something wrong
2: You did HSN before the nerfs
3: A bug
This is very true and no matter how much CC you have if you don't have the damage to beat the timers then you lose out.
That sounds a lot like HSN pre-nerf, I miss those days when we had a FUN mission to play.
On note of the lacking escape power, evasives is a universal escape power, point the ship away from the tractor user and hit the evasives button and when you hit the 5km mark you're free.
This is the main reason I turned to pvp, they may do annoying stuff and super high spike DPS but at least they have to do it within the rules of the game.
war is hell ... the day you count on your enemy to behave a certain way, is the day you will die.
.
---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----
If it is fair for the NPCs to say "Scre the rules" why can't we?
That Terran Empire Captain also doesn't command the wide variety of abilities you do nor does it use any real tactics like you might.
^^^This^^^