It's funny, some of the explanations people provide in this thread to try and denounce the Science career and class of ship.
"So that leaves Science skills to focus on"... In the entirety of your post I saw no mention of weapons. Science ships use weapons too.
Let's compare. Science ship versus Tac in an escort. According to you, only science skills actually count for anything. So let's focus on that; skills.
What Science abilities deal damage by themselves (not requiring weapons)? GravWell, Tyken's rift, Tractor beam, Tractor Repulsors, Charged Particle Burst...
What Tactical abilities deal damage by themselves? None.
By all rights, Science should then be THE ship to get into!
See how ridiculous this sounds? Because you omit an important variable; Ship Weapons. Have a Science character specced for torpedo damage, equip some Breen Cluster Torpedoes and mines AND equip damaging Science abilities, and there you have it; a science ship with damage potential akin to an escort, with crowd control benefits as well.
By the way Scurry, saw your signature. I love the Fleet Nova too, what an underestimated and spectacular ship.
You really think a torpedo boat is going to compare to a Escort? Maybe you're right and Science doesn't need any help....
Using your method of thinking the Galaxy can use a A2B build so no it doesn't need any help...it's a perfectly fine ship. So judging by your sig you must want the Galaxy to be OP!
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
Science SHIPS would be ok if their powers were powerful enough to have a noticeable effect on the chosen targets but as has been noted in this thread, most CC is easily broken, some NPCs can fly through a high aux and grav gens buffed GW3 at standard flight speed (no EPtE). And they call that crowd control! I call that a joke.
Science SHIPS would be ok if their powers were powerful enough to have a noticeable effect on the chosen targets but as has been noted in this thread, most CC is easily broken, some NPCs can fly through a high aux and grav gens buffed GW3 at standard flight speed (no EPtE). And they call that crowd control! I call that a joke.
Easily broken or avoidable...no to mention if you want to do one thing decent you need to completely forgo anything else. Resistances are so high one has to stack Flow Capacitors to be able to drain a nice amount of power which means no damage at all from the damaging abilities.
If I want to do some damage that means I will have to stack Particle Generators...oh but look...they can easily break free from my GW and my TR doesn't drain enough power to keep anyone from escaping after a tic or two.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
See how ridiculous this sounds? Because you omit an important variable; Ship Weapons. Have a Science character specced for torpedo damage, equip some Breen Cluster Torpedoes and mines AND equip damaging Science abilities, and there you have it; a science ship with damage potential akin to an escort, with crowd control benefits as well.
Akin to the kind of escort flying around with 50 weapon power and beams in the back you find in the public STF queues perhaps, but not even in the same dimension as a properly built and competently flown escort by any good player.
Been playing a 8-9 months started with an engineer and helped son get a Tac to 50. I started a Sci Capt playing on/off 6-8 wks to hit level 50. I am not the best science captain and still learning.
Overall, science captains/boffs and science ships have it the toughest in the game and I can see why they make a smallest population in the game. Both could use some love from developers to raise the level of performance. Playing science makes me feel like a low level controller with unslotted powers from CoH.
Been playing a 8-9 months started with an engineer and helped son get a Tac to 50. I started a Sci Capt playing on/off 6-8 wks to hit level 50. I am not the best science captain and still learning.
Overall, science captains/boffs and science ships have it the toughest in the game and I can see why they make a smallest population in the game. Both could use some love from developers to raise the level of performance. Playing science makes me feel like a low level controller with unslotted powers from CoH.
I feel like the don't care at all and never will...I mean Escorts are Escorts and I doubt they will never not be powerful and lots of people play and buy them because they're powerful.
Cruisers...well Cruisers have slowly began to progress farther and farther...my guess is because the majority of hero ships in Trek have been cruisers/battlecruisers.
Voyager was the only non Cruiser or Escort hero ship pretty much and look at it...probably the weakest boff slotting of any ships...complete lack of any tactical ability...just stuff full of blue slots which are the weakest in game.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
I feel like the don't care at all and never will...I mean Escorts are Escorts and I doubt they will never not be powerful and lots of people play and buy them because they're powerful.
Cruisers...well Cruisers have slowly began to progress farther and farther...my guess is because the majority of hero ships in Trek have been cruisers/battlecruisers.
Voyager was the only non Cruiser or Escort hero ship pretty much and look at it...probably the weakest boff slotting of any ships...complete lack of any tactical ability...just stuff full of blue slots which are the weakest in game.
The Intrepid is one of the best Science ships around due to it's heavy Sci slotting, high shield mod, good turn rate, and Ablative Armor.
The Fleet edition even comes with 3x Tac Consoles.
Is it going to DPS and be a damage king? No. But from a Science/CC standpoint, it's pretty boss.
Example:
Lt Tac: Your choice... I load up with Torp Spread 1 + 2
Lt Eng: EPtS 1, Aux to SIF 1
Ens Sci: HE 1
LtC Sci: Tractor Beam 1, TSS 2, VM 1
Cmdr Sci: Tractor Beam 1, SciTeam 2, VM 1, PSW 3.
I like science ships for the following reasons:
1. better shields
2. high hull integrity
3. they look awesome (especially the reconnaissance science vessel)
I feel like the don't care at all and never will...I mean Escorts are Escorts and I doubt they will never not be powerful and lots of people play and buy them because they're powerful.
Cruisers...well Cruisers have slowly began to progress farther and farther...my guess is because the majority of hero ships in Trek have been cruisers/battlecruisers.
Voyager was the only non Cruiser or Escort hero ship pretty much and look at it...probably the weakest boff slotting of any ships...complete lack of any tactical ability...just stuff full of blue slots which are the weakest in game.
I don't think the problem is that science ships and skills are weak, but that the game has been designed around encounters that are most easily beaten with high DPS. If every problem in the game can be solved by "moar damage moar faster," then there's really no need for other skills--even if those skills are useful.
So my simple and generalized opinion going forward would be for encounters to be (re)designed to encourage more than flat DPS strategies. This could be a great opportunity to include more environmental hazards, more intelligent enemies, and more opportunities for science abilities to be the hero. The same would apply to engineering abilities, but to a lesser extent.
I don't think the problem is that science ships and skills are weak, but that the game has been designed around encounters that are most easily beaten with high DPS. If every problem in the game can be solved by "moar damage moar faster," then there's really no need for other skills--even if those skills are useful.
So my simple and generalized opinion going forward would be for encounters to be (re)designed to encourage more than flat DPS strategies. This could be a great opportunity to include more environmental hazards, more intelligent enemies, and more opportunities for science abilities to be the hero. The same would apply to engineering abilities, but to a lesser extent.
In away some of them are, but people choose to not look at them that way.
Crowd Control is great for keeping optionals. Especially when the Moar Dakka guys cant get their stuff together and follow a plan (blowing one generator before the rest are ready) which leads to needing to keep those pesky spheres at bay.
While yes in PVP it is easily escapeable, PVE is great for Crowd Control.
AND things like No Win Scenario cannot be wont by Pure DPS alone. You need at least one dedicated healer who can take a pounding.
Also the fleet intrepid IS boss. Just because YOU dont like it Lianthelia means nothing. it is a great little ship, especially with the Ablative console it can save the day.
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
You really think a torpedo boat is going to compare to a Escort? Maybe you're right and Science doesn't need any help....
Using your method of thinking the Galaxy can use a A2B build so no it doesn't need any help...it's a perfectly fine ship. So judging by your sig you must want the Galaxy to be OP!
Um sorry, but I don't understand your logic. How did torpedo+Science skills Science Vessels turn into a talk about Aux2Bat Galaxy and OP?
Also, side note: if you know anything about me, I am not a proponent for OP anything. Please do your homework before making assumptions that are both foolish and wholly incorrect.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
Um sorry, but I don't understand your logic. How did torpedo+Science skills Science Vessels turn into a talk about Aux2Bat Galaxy and OP?
Also, side note: if you know anything about me, I am not a proponent for OP anything. Please do your homework before making assumptions that are both foolish and wholly incorrect.
Exactly my point, I came in and said some random thing that just isn't true...like the post I was replying to.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
Yeah and they nerfed all the cc like gw so now we have cc that does not actually cc something... (and this is just for pve in pvp there are so many counters to cc now there is little point subnuke is pretty much the only thing of worth in pvp)
This right here is my take on the situation as well (and I posted as much earlier in the thread). There is little incentive or reward for non-DPS gameplay.
Science ships are clearly defined, carriers are simply something different.
Carriers only highlight how ****ty pure science ships are. They give up nothing except a bit of turning rate and get two hangar slots, tons of hull and sometimes even more weapon slots in exchange for that. No wonder they are much more desirable. But they are mostly desirable since tons of people love pet gameplay, most carrier pilots would gladly trade away science boff and console stations for more tactical or engineering ones. Carriers are successful despite a science focus, not because of it.
Science boff abilities are utterly broken and useless, this thread is full of examples why.
I will concur that Science BOFF abilities need a boost. A few months after STO released in 2009, TAC players were furious at Science for actually being able to do damage, albeit at a different means. Cryptic listened and Science has been nerfed to hell ever since, and has never recovered. I remember when Viral Matrix could affect Shield Subsystem, and again, people hated on Science and Cryptic made Shield Subsystem immune to VM. They complained about energy drains being too strong from Tykien's Rift, Energy Siphon, despite putting little to no points in Power Insulators, so Cryptic made energy drains very easy to resist. They complained that Grav Well did too much damage when your hull was exposed, so Cryptic nerfed the damage TREMENDOUSLY. They complained that Tykien's Rift's pull was too strong and the energy drain was too much. So Tykien's Rift has been made into a joke ever since 2009.
All this while TAC has been made the supreme choice for a player class, alongside all the ridiculous offensive boosts. For example. when they made weapons drain immediately recoverable, that slanted the power shift for DHCs and TAC captains, Escorts forever in that direction, and has never let up since. You see, when STO came out, weapons drain was a major issue, because you needed good EPS + EPS Consoles to recover energy spent quicker. DHCs were powerful still back then, but the drain was so massive that it was only good for initial attack runs, or if the player breaks off, recovers energy, then makes another attack run. Back then, there was a use for "lesser" energy weapons because they could put steady pressure. Now DHCs can lay constant, high volume of massive firepower without ever letting up.
You can go on and on. There's alot of bad history ever since Cryptic decided to turn STO combat into a form of World War II Fighters Online or something. So much has been made for the favor of TAC side of STO, it's ridiculous.
Only Engineers have not been impacted and not been on the losing side of balance. They have the unfortunate distinction of, like the KDF, being ignored by Cryptic. But considering what Cryptic likes to do for "balance" that may have been a blessing for Engineers.
Carriers - Carriers are good in applying science abilities, but the turn rate issues you mentioned severely limits on what they can realistically use, most especially in the dogfights that pass for PVP today. A number of abilities, to include even Science Captain abilities, are limited by arcs. All carriers, except for the KDF's Kar'Fi, have terrible turn rates. Trying to apply a Subnuc to a hard turning Escort is troublesome and more work has to happen to be able to get him in your crosshairs.
In PvP, a Subnuke is easily and quickly cleared by Science Team, so even if you are able hit a quick escort with it, they will either clear it themselves or have a team mate throw it to them.
As a PvP'er who loves science abilities, it's frustrating when so many of them are virtually useless. Viral Matrix seems like the only non-heal Science ability worth slotting.
In a near perfect space mage utopia:
-Gravity well would have a stronger hold
-Grav well and Tyken's would not share a cool down
-Tyken's would drain for 10 secs then disable a subsystem (like the Dhelan console)
-TBR would be more effective
-PSW's repel would be stronger
I'd also like to see improved Science captain abilities as subnuke/sensor scan/target subsystem are weak in comparison to other captain abilities.
Just a couple things off the top of my head. Cryptic, I'll look forward to enjoying these new buffs to science abilities in the next season. Thanks in advance.
There are going to be new buffs? Huh?
Well... we will have fun for a few weeks until some PvPers whine enough about it and it gets nerfed to oblivion again...
Imagine if there were no cool downs and your abilities had power drains that rationed their use. Then science and engineering power drains/boosts could really contribute to powers and make the game more fun. Instead we have the silly cool downs that prevent greater diversity in unconventional play styles. I think it would give science more to do if ship power was more important.
PvE Jem'Hadar motto:Participation Ribbonsare life.
Exactly my point, I came in and said some random thing that just isn't true...like the post I was replying to.
The reason behind my post was to emphasize on how it's a synergy between all parts of a starship. You can't just single out Science abilities and say "Dey Suck!". They are a PART of a system that works effectively if the captain knows what they are doing, and has the appropriate setup and knowledge.
Just by itself, the Science powers don't deal that much damage. Sure, they take small bites out of your hull, but that's about it. But just looking at Science powers by themselves isn't taking into account the whole picture. And that's why I compared Tac powers and Sci powers; because Tac powers are an extreme, in which none of them deal damage by themselves. It's a simile to the Science powers but more extreme, so readers of this thread can understand the narrow perspective you are trying to force upon Science.
By themselves, Science powers are weak. Tac comparison: Tac powers don't even do damage without weapons.
Add weapons.
Science powers PLUS weapons = Damage output!
Just like Tac powers PLUS weapons = Damage output.
You need weapons; they are a part of the equation that makes up a starship's damage output potential.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
Minimal Damage Output DESPITE BOffslots and Captain Abilites being wasted on Science.
Please enlighten me, how am I useful currently?
Everything I can throw at the enemy can and will be countered within a second or two depending on how fast the player (when PvPing) is...
In another thread someone said SubNuke is useful but it can be countered easily with Science Team as far as I know...
If anything I can sit back, throw some heals, swoop in every time SubNuke is ready and hope that enemy is to occupied with tearing me apart to notice it and my teammates might have a chance of taking advantage of my ability.
While I haven't played STFs lately I got the impression that now even those ******n Borg Spheres have EPtE and can avoid my GravWells, which I thought to be one of the few useful skills...
Sensors take to long to really have any effect, SST is far to weak (and probably easily countered as well).
The most useful abilites in my arsenal are mostly Tac and a few Eng Skills... there is something inherently wrong with that...
Comments
You really think a torpedo boat is going to compare to a Escort? Maybe you're right and Science doesn't need any help....
Using your method of thinking the Galaxy can use a A2B build so no it doesn't need any help...it's a perfectly fine ship. So judging by your sig you must want the Galaxy to be OP!
Easily broken or avoidable...no to mention if you want to do one thing decent you need to completely forgo anything else. Resistances are so high one has to stack Flow Capacitors to be able to drain a nice amount of power which means no damage at all from the damaging abilities.
If I want to do some damage that means I will have to stack Particle Generators...oh but look...they can easily break free from my GW and my TR doesn't drain enough power to keep anyone from escaping after a tic or two.
Akin to the kind of escort flying around with 50 weapon power and beams in the back you find in the public STF queues perhaps, but not even in the same dimension as a properly built and competently flown escort by any good player.
Overall, science captains/boffs and science ships have it the toughest in the game and I can see why they make a smallest population in the game. Both could use some love from developers to raise the level of performance. Playing science makes me feel like a low level controller with unslotted powers from CoH.
I feel like the don't care at all and never will...I mean Escorts are Escorts and I doubt they will never not be powerful and lots of people play and buy them because they're powerful.
Cruisers...well Cruisers have slowly began to progress farther and farther...my guess is because the majority of hero ships in Trek have been cruisers/battlecruisers.
Voyager was the only non Cruiser or Escort hero ship pretty much and look at it...probably the weakest boff slotting of any ships...complete lack of any tactical ability...just stuff full of blue slots which are the weakest in game.
The Intrepid is one of the best Science ships around due to it's heavy Sci slotting, high shield mod, good turn rate, and Ablative Armor.
The Fleet edition even comes with 3x Tac Consoles.
Is it going to DPS and be a damage king? No. But from a Science/CC standpoint, it's pretty boss.
Example:
Lt Tac: Your choice... I load up with Torp Spread 1 + 2
Lt Eng: EPtS 1, Aux to SIF 1
Ens Sci: HE 1
LtC Sci: Tractor Beam 1, TSS 2, VM 1
Cmdr Sci: Tractor Beam 1, SciTeam 2, VM 1, PSW 3.
1. better shields
2. high hull integrity
3. they look awesome (especially the reconnaissance science vessel)
How could anything be *boss* when it sucks? The Intrepid sucks because it is full of nothing but science slots.
Science right now is next to useless, CC is a joke when the majority of it all is very easily escapable and do little damage in the process.
---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----
I suppose nerdgasm if it wasn't what you expected or wanted it to be and was kinda a letdown. :P
---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----
I don't think the problem is that science ships and skills are weak, but that the game has been designed around encounters that are most easily beaten with high DPS. If every problem in the game can be solved by "moar damage moar faster," then there's really no need for other skills--even if those skills are useful.
So my simple and generalized opinion going forward would be for encounters to be (re)designed to encourage more than flat DPS strategies. This could be a great opportunity to include more environmental hazards, more intelligent enemies, and more opportunities for science abilities to be the hero. The same would apply to engineering abilities, but to a lesser extent.
In away some of them are, but people choose to not look at them that way.
Crowd Control is great for keeping optionals. Especially when the Moar Dakka guys cant get their stuff together and follow a plan (blowing one generator before the rest are ready) which leads to needing to keep those pesky spheres at bay.
While yes in PVP it is easily escapeable, PVE is great for Crowd Control.
AND things like No Win Scenario cannot be wont by Pure DPS alone. You need at least one dedicated healer who can take a pounding.
Also the fleet intrepid IS boss. Just because YOU dont like it Lianthelia means nothing. it is a great little ship, especially with the Ablative console it can save the day.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Um sorry, but I don't understand your logic. How did torpedo+Science skills Science Vessels turn into a talk about Aux2Bat Galaxy and OP?
Also, side note: if you know anything about me, I am not a proponent for OP anything. Please do your homework before making assumptions that are both foolish and wholly incorrect.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
CC isn't always about damage.
Only if you don't mind things shooting out early. :rolleyes:
Though you could be talking the borg one in the red alerts, not that is what gravity well should be like not the watered down version we have now.
Exactly my point, I came in and said some random thing that just isn't true...like the post I was replying to.
But completion of almost all objectives is.
Yeah and they nerfed all the cc like gw so now we have cc that does not actually cc something... (and this is just for pve in pvp there are so many counters to cc now there is little point subnuke is pretty much the only thing of worth in pvp)
What is CC really about if it can't do damage, it can't control anything, and in most cases is easily avoidable?
This right here is my take on the situation as well (and I posted as much earlier in the thread). There is little incentive or reward for non-DPS gameplay.
I will concur that Science BOFF abilities need a boost. A few months after STO released in 2009, TAC players were furious at Science for actually being able to do damage, albeit at a different means. Cryptic listened and Science has been nerfed to hell ever since, and has never recovered. I remember when Viral Matrix could affect Shield Subsystem, and again, people hated on Science and Cryptic made Shield Subsystem immune to VM. They complained about energy drains being too strong from Tykien's Rift, Energy Siphon, despite putting little to no points in Power Insulators, so Cryptic made energy drains very easy to resist. They complained that Grav Well did too much damage when your hull was exposed, so Cryptic nerfed the damage TREMENDOUSLY. They complained that Tykien's Rift's pull was too strong and the energy drain was too much. So Tykien's Rift has been made into a joke ever since 2009.
All this while TAC has been made the supreme choice for a player class, alongside all the ridiculous offensive boosts. For example. when they made weapons drain immediately recoverable, that slanted the power shift for DHCs and TAC captains, Escorts forever in that direction, and has never let up since. You see, when STO came out, weapons drain was a major issue, because you needed good EPS + EPS Consoles to recover energy spent quicker. DHCs were powerful still back then, but the drain was so massive that it was only good for initial attack runs, or if the player breaks off, recovers energy, then makes another attack run. Back then, there was a use for "lesser" energy weapons because they could put steady pressure. Now DHCs can lay constant, high volume of massive firepower without ever letting up.
You can go on and on. There's alot of bad history ever since Cryptic decided to turn STO combat into a form of World War II Fighters Online or something. So much has been made for the favor of TAC side of STO, it's ridiculous.
Only Engineers have not been impacted and not been on the losing side of balance. They have the unfortunate distinction of, like the KDF, being ignored by Cryptic. But considering what Cryptic likes to do for "balance" that may have been a blessing for Engineers.
Carriers - Carriers are good in applying science abilities, but the turn rate issues you mentioned severely limits on what they can realistically use, most especially in the dogfights that pass for PVP today. A number of abilities, to include even Science Captain abilities, are limited by arcs. All carriers, except for the KDF's Kar'Fi, have terrible turn rates. Trying to apply a Subnuc to a hard turning Escort is troublesome and more work has to happen to be able to get him in your crosshairs.
As a PvP'er who loves science abilities, it's frustrating when so many of them are virtually useless. Viral Matrix seems like the only non-heal Science ability worth slotting.
In a near perfect space mage utopia:
-Gravity well would have a stronger hold
-Grav well and Tyken's would not share a cool down
-Tyken's would drain for 10 secs then disable a subsystem (like the Dhelan console)
-TBR would be more effective
-PSW's repel would be stronger
I'd also like to see improved Science captain abilities as subnuke/sensor scan/target subsystem are weak in comparison to other captain abilities.
Just a couple things off the top of my head. Cryptic, I'll look forward to enjoying these new buffs to science abilities in the next season. Thanks in advance.
Well... we will have fun for a few weeks until some PvPers whine enough about it and it gets nerfed to oblivion again...
The reason behind my post was to emphasize on how it's a synergy between all parts of a starship. You can't just single out Science abilities and say "Dey Suck!". They are a PART of a system that works effectively if the captain knows what they are doing, and has the appropriate setup and knowledge.
Just by itself, the Science powers don't deal that much damage. Sure, they take small bites out of your hull, but that's about it. But just looking at Science powers by themselves isn't taking into account the whole picture. And that's why I compared Tac powers and Sci powers; because Tac powers are an extreme, in which none of them deal damage by themselves. It's a simile to the Science powers but more extreme, so readers of this thread can understand the narrow perspective you are trying to force upon Science.
By themselves, Science powers are weak. Tac comparison: Tac powers don't even do damage without weapons.
Add weapons.
Science powers PLUS weapons = Damage output!
Just like Tac powers PLUS weapons = Damage output.
You need weapons; they are a part of the equation that makes up a starship's damage output potential.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
Currently it seems more to be:
Minimal Damage Output DESPITE BOffslots and Captain Abilites being wasted on Science.
Please enlighten me, how am I useful currently?
Everything I can throw at the enemy can and will be countered within a second or two depending on how fast the player (when PvPing) is...
In another thread someone said SubNuke is useful but it can be countered easily with Science Team as far as I know...
If anything I can sit back, throw some heals, swoop in every time SubNuke is ready and hope that enemy is to occupied with tearing me apart to notice it and my teammates might have a chance of taking advantage of my ability.
While I haven't played STFs lately I got the impression that now even those ******n Borg Spheres have EPtE and can avoid my GravWells, which I thought to be one of the few useful skills...
Sensors take to long to really have any effect, SST is far to weak (and probably easily countered as well).
The most useful abilites in my arsenal are mostly Tac and a few Eng Skills... there is something inherently wrong with that...
Science powers PLUS weapons = Damage output!
Where did this come from? It's not my post. And my post above says nothing to the effect.
had a little mixup with the quote tags