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Where is the love for Science ships?
lianthelia
Member Posts: 7,887 Arc User
Ever since you nerfed Science to hell because of Tac officers Science ships have been hurting. Since I've been playing the game which was before f2p there has only been 3 Science ships added to the game...2 of them through lock boxes.
I look at the list of lockbox/special ships...plenty of cruisers, escorts, and cruisers that want to be escorts but absolutely no love for Science. Carriers used to be full of Science abilities including a Sci Cmdr. Now all the carriers these days have a Tac Cmdr and generally very little Science to them.
Since LoR Cruisers have gotten a nice boost and they already had A2B which gave them a whole ton...but Sci are left completely in the dark. The last Sci ship you introduced in the Vesta is basically a Armitage wanna-be...
I look at the list of lockbox/special ships...plenty of cruisers, escorts, and cruisers that want to be escorts but absolutely no love for Science. Carriers used to be full of Science abilities including a Sci Cmdr. Now all the carriers these days have a Tac Cmdr and generally very little Science to them.
Since LoR Cruisers have gotten a nice boost and they already had A2B which gave them a whole ton...but Sci are left completely in the dark. The last Sci ship you introduced in the Vesta is basically a Armitage wanna-be...
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
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Rademaker
Vesta
Aventine
Fleet Nova
Fleet Nova Retrofit
Atrox
Fleet Varanus
Fleet Trident
Fleet Luna
Mirror Trident
Mirror Luna
Korath
Wells
Fleet Nebula
Ha'nom
Mirror Ha'nom
Fleet Ha'nom
R'mor
Fleet Olympic
Fleet Olympic Retrofit
Tholian Orb Weaver
Fleet Intrepid
Mirror Vo'Quv
Fleet Vo'Quv
Commander Universal station ships:
Fleet Norgh
Fleet B'Rel
Fleet Hoh'SuS
Fleet Hoh'SuS Retrofit
Tal Shiar Adapted Battlecruiser
Tholian Recluse
May have missed a couple.
Twitter! STO_JamJamz
Still didnt get the jist of what he is saying... Sci is TRIBBLE compared to what it used to be..ok if it was a little overpowered at 1st but look where its at now!?? Tacs are all about weapons, Engi are all about passives and sci are all about our Bof abilities which are TRIBBLE and half of them dont work as good compared to most Tac bof abilities...
And its not just one or two things that break and ruin a profession its a multitude of things big and small that really pushes something to the verge of useless!.
There are a few builds that actually work on the ordinary sci ship and thats because we have to reallllly make our ship a self healing ship more than a disabling ship (which is basically what we are SUPOSSED to do)
Cryptic we really appreciate all the new content and grind but we would really appreciate if you would review the logic in alot of abilities and bugs and stuff before any more grind fest comes out.
Please and thank you!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Scis is about boff abilities, problem is most that are popular and used (cookie-cutter builds) get nerfed batted in the pvp scene. See a connection to this? So its gotten to the point the only why I can be effective at sci is to almost roll in a nebula or similar type setup and depend on tankiness or go for limited sci and burst.
Ops said only 3 science ships have been released since F2P. Dev proved them wrong. How is that hard to get?
JamJamz didn't address science abilities. JamJamz does design, modelling (and textures?) for ships, he has nothing to do with the effectiveness of science abiltiies, so he didn't talk about that.
---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----
What does the ship guy have to do with BO abilities???
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
The escort is sciencey but the not the cruiser.
I didn't count the Romulan vessel so that's four Sci Vessels...I don't even need the split second it would take me to blink to think of four Cruisers or four Escorts.
I was also talking about Sci abilities for those who missed it...you know...all that about being nerfed to death thanks to Tac captains and never got anything to make up for the huge losses.
Well, let's take out the ones that are actually old ships, just with a new skin or new stats - the fleet ships and the mirror ships - and the ones that merely just can have a cdr sci boff:
Of those, three are the Vesta line, so that doesn't count. The Korath, Wells, and R'mor are all identical stats, but are different ships (and one came at a different time), so I'll give you them - but they are lockbox, as is the Orb Weaver. The Atrox is technically a sci ship, but functions far differently from other sci ships - because it's a carrier!
So we have, really, in new non-lock-box ships:
Vesta line
Ha'nom
The OP said their have only been 3 science ships in over a year, the ship guy posted a list of science ships added to the game proving him wrong.
Calling it a misdirect is a pretty big misdirect.
Fleet ships are new. Look at how much of a difference they make in combat nowadays. The difference between a Sovereign and Fleet Sovereign are humongous.
About science abilities. To be frank, and this may be biased, but in truth Engineering abilities are the ones who are at a disadvantage. Consider this:
Engineering abilities:
Debuffs: 1
DoT powers: 2
Self heals: 2
Self/Team heals: 2
Team heals: 1
Offensive buffs: 2
Aux buffs: 1
Speed buffs: 2
Other: 2
Science abilities:
Heals: 2
Disables: 3
Placates: 2
Offensive buffs: 2
Movement control: 2
DoT: 2
Other: 5
Science abilities have a very diverse range of capabilities. They may not be what you want them to be, and in that case I recommend switching ships. Science powers are for weakening targets or using attack/defense methods that are outside of the traditional tank/damage roles.
Sure, those eager damage-spitting Tacscorts are a problem. But you could use Feedback Pulse to reflect damage back at them; Tractor beam to hold them down and move out of the firing arc; Energy siphon to reduce their weapons power; Jam Sensors so they can't target you; Photonic shockwave to knock them around for a second or two.
It's all about how you use the various tools to your advantage.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
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This is the most BS post I have ever seen on these forums. If you can't delete the ship from the game without having an impact then its an unique ship.
If we can take ships off the list for nonsensical reasons, I'm going to add every ship with a Sci Boff seat on as a Sci ship. Universal seats count too, so each BOP counts as 4 Sci ships. And now my post is almost as terrible as yours. Almost.
Pretty much energy drains are only viable the disable and shield stripping ones are pretty much the unreliable since most players and npcs have such high resistances even at max auxillary which it requires on most of these you don't even put a dent into the enemy target.
Who cares about diversity when most of those *diverse* abilities do squat? Most of them are ineffective or easily avoidable.
I didn't really argue that escorts are better than Sci or anything, mostly mentioned escorts because of how many more of them we get than Sci...
Basically, we got screwed by evolution.
Tachyon beam: useless against ships with 20-200K shields.
How to fix: make Tachyon Beam remove a percentage of shields.
I think you need to read the very first post.
Matter of fact, alot of people in this thread need to read the initial post, to include the Cryptic rep.
Also, Science BOFF abilities were nerfed hard, long long ago and have never recovered. People complained about energy drains, so energy drains were made easy to resist with minimal points. This affected a whole swath of Science Debuff abilities (Energy Siphon, Tachyon Beam, Tykien's Rift, etc.). That's just one example.
Hell, even in PVE this is now an issue. Not surprising to see NPCs walk away from a Grav Well 3 made by full Grav Well skill with 4-5 associated sci consoles to boost it.
Also, I want to say that I find it ridiculous that TAC Captain BUFFs greatly improve Science ability damage more than Science Captain BUFFs ever will.
If in dev interviews someone asks Gecko or DStahl about science being useless, they always evade with TRIBBLE about they'd rather make new missions that require science than making over the abilities themselves. Well if you love science ships I'd take that as a big reminder to simply quit the game honestly.
The only thing space science abilities are good for is making the air look colorful. Woohoo. Damage is beyond useless (I get that, tac territory and all) but the disable capabilities are utterly useless too. It's not just that no missions profit from that type of ability at all, if they would, the abilities we have would STILL suck. GWs that have zero effect on ships that pass through. Energy drains that make a ship that barely hurts us hurt us a tiny bit less for 10 seconds. Random chance to disable a subsystem for 2 seconds with 90 seconds cooldowns, the list goes on and on. It's hard to fathom how the devs can't even see what the issue is.
Yes, in a coordinated team environment, 2 seconds are all that is needed for a pro team to dismantle a player completely. But with effects like this Science will NEVER have a place in PvE. As long as you try to balance both at once Science will stay useless until the end of time. Balance PvP and PvE seperately or remove Science ships from the game, currently they are just traps for new players and bad players to waste money on because they don't know better.
This situation is so frustrating. And over and over the devs show us they don't give a TRIBBLE.
Basically 3 full new ships so far, the rest are either rehashes or lock box so not being counted by me. Though the ship thing is not that important in all honest, to me anyway.
It is sci skills, and the BOFF skills that are SNAFUed and this is really the problem not the ships themselves. These need looking at and rebuilding. I know this isn't your area JamJamz so maybe you would be kind enough to get someone whoes area it is to dare to pop their head above the parapet and come here and let us discuss that with them.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Its less about the amount. In that department science is quite glorious. There are plenty of different abilities around. No, its not about the amount, but you can make it about it.
How many of the science abilities actually do something worthwhile/work compared to the eng abilities?
The truth is, if i want working science stuff, i don't check the science abilities, i check the exotic consoles of lock boxes and the lobi store. They actually work and even without wasting lots of skill points and precious bridge officer slots. :cool:
There is one thing thought that makes science ships by themselve less interesting than other ships: they can most of the time only equip 3 fore, 3 aft weapons and that is a problem imho.
With all the goodies and special weapons that can nowadays be acquired in game, having many weapon slots is a most for any ship.
For instance, many people like to equip a kinetic cutting beam, a transphasic cluster torp, a romulan torpedo and other stuff like 180 degree quantum or trico mine.... That leaves you with like only 3 slots to equip beam or cannon weapons which simply is not good enough.
Sci ships are most of time already poor on tactical options and having a TT skill already takes 1 slot... So you end with a ship with not only few weapons but also few tactical capabilities....
Even the Vesta, the only sci ship i still use sometimes, it is only not bad when i go all phasers and max Aux with it using its special weapons... Not much room for torpedoes, mines or special weapons, it is still only a 6 slot ship..
Sorry for my rambling, just a few thoughts on sci ships i had. If sci ships had 8 weapons slots like cruisers, i might be interested in them again even with their weaker hull they have.
Heh, I remember that