Defiant was designed to fight the borg threat... Iit has massive hull plating for fighting the borg. In Star Trek 8 you see it take massive damage from borg without blowing to pieces compared to the Miranda which got 1-2 shot by 1 jem dread ( And I think the borg cube hits way harder than a jem dread ). Miranda aint designed to fight the borg, hence its hull should not be even close to the defiant. Not even by a longshot.
So it's all about the outer 'ablative armor' plating is what your argument is? Yet I can quite easily, in game, put that same Ablative Armor on any other ship regardless of tier because oh, it's a console item.
To touch on misterde3 said, how many 50 year old War planes are in the skies? How many 50 year old tanks are on the battlefield?
Even ships which are large and expensive to replace wouldn't be more than 20 years old, now I'm not denying a mothball fleet here. But at Tier 5 your a frickin Admiral your not going to be using the mothball fleet.
Back to back post again, sorry.
Perhaps, but at the same time I was always under the general impression that 'fleet ships' were not 'rebuilds' or 'gutting out and replacing components'. But rather a whole new vessel built to the design specs but including the latest and most advanced tech which either Starfleet/the KDF/Romulan Republic, has to offer.
Perhaps, but at the same time I was always under the general impression that 'fleet ships' were not 'rebuilds' or 'gutting out and replacing components'. But rather a whole new vessel built to the design specs but including the latest and most advanced tech which either Starfleet/the KDF/Romulan Republic, has to offer.
An interesting concept but it doesn't make any sense, Starfleet unlike other star faring races build new ships that look different to old ships. So they wouldn't build a new ship for an outdated design.
When the new tech can't be put into the old hull, that hull is taken out of production.
A fleet ship is an older ship with retrofitted with better technology.
I was once DKnight1000, apparently I had taken my own name so now I'm DKnight0001. If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why. When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
To touch on misterde3 said, how many 50 year old War planes are in the skies? How many 50 year old tanks are on the battlefield?
Even ships which are large and expensive to replace wouldn't be more than 20 years old, now I'm not denying a mothball fleet here. But at Tier 5 your a frickin Admiral your not going to be using the mothball fleet.
The USA is still using military aircraft which where built more than 50 years ago.
You have also got to consider, design and materials, a stunt plane or single engine prop planes are basicly using the same 100 year old design just more refined, like the adaptation of the now military jets.
A fleet Miranda is a nice idea for a light maneuverable cruiser with a design similar to a nebula.
Would'nt it be better to reclassify a miranda as a destroyer?
Sure, it's the redshirt of the fleet but, having a reinforced hull and dhcs would give it a fighting chance in battle. I love the miranda from Star Trek 2, and the fact they fought all the way up to and throughout the dominion war says a lot about the design, it can be improved, I'd call the Miranda the T-34 of star trek, a basic and simple design that is easy to mass produce.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
The USA is still using military aircraft which where built more than 50 years ago.
You have also got to consider, design and materials, a stunt plane or single engine prop planes are basicly using the same 100 year old design just more refined, like the adaptation of the now military jets.
A fleet Miranda is a nice idea for a light maneuverable cruiser with a design similar to a nebula.
The Airframe of a jet plane lasts 20 years. Australia have had to replace their technologically up to date F111 planes with temporary FA/18s waiting for the F35.
The Airframe of the plane was too stressed despite everything else on the plane being fine.
Please point me to a design that is 50 years old and isn't being phased out.
Let's also consider this is a Sci Fi game and the Miranda's are quite a bit older than 50 years in the games timeline.
I was once DKnight1000, apparently I had taken my own name so now I'm DKnight0001. If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why. When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
Star trek canon the Saber replaced the aging Mirandas and the Nova replaced the aging oberths. Defiant was built as a warship with no previous starship class filling that role.
Just...no.
The Saber was developed as part of the same Anti-Borg task force that produced the Akira, Sovereign, Steamrunner, Defiant, Sovereign and Norway classes. She was made to do one thing: fight. Calling her the Defiant's younger sister is not an inaccurate title (can't say smaller since depending on your source the Saber is possibly larger than the Defiant, but that's a whole 'nother discussion).
By no stretch of the imagination was she designed as a modular scientific and exploration vessel. The closest thing to a replacement for the Miranda is in fact the Intrepid class.
By no stretch of the imagination was she designed as a modular scientific and exploration vessel. The closest thing to a replacement for the Miranda is in fact the Intrepid class.
I was always under the impression that the Nebula-class replaced the Miranda-class as the Starfleet workhorse ship.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
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I was always under the impression that the Nebula-class replaced the Miranda-class as the Starfleet workhorse ship.
That's the problem with so many Fed ships having overlapping mission profiles, many do the exact same thing. My view is that comparisons should be made to the mission profile of the Miranda during its prime, not to the roles it was relegated to as it aged.
In that respect, given the long-range nature of the missions Miranda-class (plus her variants) ships were shown and described to be given, the Intrepid is the better analog in my mind.
The Airframe of a jet plane lasts 20 years. Australia have had to replace their technologically up to date F111 planes with temporary FA/18s waiting for the F35.
The Airframe of the plane was too stressed despite everything else on the plane being fine.
Please point me to a design that is 50 years old and isn't being phased out.
Let's also consider this is a Sci Fi game and the Miranda's are quite a bit older than 50 years in the games timeline.
My point being, the general design of planes hasnt gone anywhere, has engine and wings.
True, Miranda might be older than 50 years, buts its still younger than the Vulcan science vessel.
Back during TOS the Miranda was a front line cruiser of the day similar to the galaxy/Nebula comparison.
During TNG the Miranda was reduce from long range exploration and tactical missions to more shorter range patrol/escort and science missions within the federation borders. It's role has changed over time.
Which is absolutely not the mission profile of the Saber. She has no scientific capability nor was she built for long range, extended travel.
As for the defiant it's tiny. Smaller than the Saber and smaller than Miranda.
Both the Defiant and Saber classes have variable sizes depending on your source. Defiant went from 120-170m while the Saber went from 140-220m. That's right, those two ranges overlap.
Now let's complicate it even further: the Miranda has multiple described dimensions. Its range is 180-280m.
The Intrepid class took more long range scientific and tactical missions but by this time Galaxy's and Nebula's were filling this role. Intrepid class was to compliment the flagships without needing as many resources and crew to man. It had the same Mk X phasers the galaxy had.
You're making my point for me. The Galaxy->Intrepid relationship is nearly identical to the Constitution->Miranda relationship. Which would mean therefore that, by your logic, the Saber and Intrepid classes should fulfill nearly identical roles.
Starfleet was working on the Akira, Nova, Saber, Steamrunner even before the borg threat. The Defiant, Sovereign and Promethious were direct results of the borg threat. Now the previous mentioned were constructed to modernize the fleet and were given more offensive and defensive capabilities bc of the borg, dominion etc
Please continue to confuse "tinkering with a design in our spare time" to "fast-tracking production due to an impending invasion by cyborg hostiles". The Akira and Saber classes were both initially just thought exercises that were significantly re-tooled into functional combat ships. The Nova was originally envisioned to replace the Galaxy as a long-range explorer, but was changed into a short-range science craft with minimal combat capabilities. The Steamrunner was originally a light patrol frigate and cargo hauler that became a heavy combat frigate.
Secondly, the Prometheus was designed to be a next-generation long-range tactical and exploration vessel. Basically an over-armed Intrepid geared for TRIBBLE-kicking on the border. It wasn't built to counter any specific threat.
Thirdly, of the ships in the Anti-Borg design grouping the Defiant-class is the only ship to begin its design cycle after Wolf 359, and then only because SFE called in Sisko to build them a warship. Every other ship had it's role and capabilities significantly altered to counter the new threat.
The Saber is included in that group. She was built to fight, not fly around exploring, doing research or hauling cargo. Which is exactly what the Miranda did.
My point being, the general design of planes hasnt gone anywhere, has engine and wings.
Say that to anyone even remotely involved in aviation, and let me know how long it takes them to stop laughing.
Going into Aerospace Engineering 1st Year, starting September. And I found this actually quite hilarious!
Plane with no engines. Theory debunked, ala Google.
During TNG the Miranda was reduce from long range exploration and tactical missions to more shorter range patrol/escort and science missions within the federation borders. It's role has changed over time.
The Saber was designed to do these missions but of course received better weapons and technology. I'm sure there are still some Mirandas flying around somewhere but not given the same important missions it once was.
- Incorrect, according to the DS9TM, the Saber has only four type X phaser emitters and two photon launchers, where the Miranda had six type-7 phaser emitters, two pulse phasers and two torpedo launchers fore and aft. The Miranda had better weaponry.
As for the defiant it's tiny. Smaller than the Saber and smaller than Miranda. It's a powerful engine surrounded by weapons, armor and shields. Very little scientific research equipment on board. The Saber and the Nova were now more routinely assigned to these missions more and more as the Miranda class is being phased out. The Intrepid class took more long range scientific and tactical missions but by this time Galaxy's and Nebula's were filling this role. Intrepid class was to compliment the flagships without needing as many resources and crew to man. It had the same Mk X phasers the galaxy had.
Again, where are you getting all of this info from?
Starfleet was working on the Akira, Nova, Saber, Steamrunner even before the borg threat. The Defiant, Sovereign and Promethious were direct results of the borg threat. Now the previous mentioned were constructed to modernize the fleet and were given more offensive and defensive capabilities than originally envisioned bc of the borg, dominion etc
And yet again, lack of proof. I could say the Defiant was a result of some engineer eating a cookie, looking at the remainders and getting an inspiration. But I have no proof, and I look silly. Same here, if you are going to state "fact", then attach proof.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
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And yet again, lack of proof. I could say the Defiant was a result of some engineer eating a cookie, looking at the remainders and getting an inspiration. But I have no proof, and I look silly. Same here, if you are going to state "fact", then attach proof.
Pretty sure they state in the show that it is basically a bunch of guns strapped together with an engine and shields.
Pretty sure they state in the show that it is basically a bunch of guns strapped together with an engine and shields.
I was referring to this:
Edalgo's post:
"Starfleet was working on the Akira, Nova, Saber, Steamrunner even before the borg threat. The Defiant, Sovereign and Promethious were direct results of the borg threat. Now the previous mentioned were constructed to modernize the fleet and were given more offensive and defensive capabilities than originally envisioned bc of the borg, dominion etc"
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
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Wow idk where you learned to read but your comprehension is terrible
End of line
Something is wrong with that link. I can't connect.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
That fan fiction is incorporating all the tech manuals to create a seamless history.
Wrong. It's fan fiction that pays lip service to codified information, while making up buckets of stuff at the writers' whims. "A Call to Duty" isn't a licensed work, project or anything close to it. It even directly clashes with other fanon sources (poke around here if you want to see what I mean)
Compare what it has to data from licensed works, with annotated references:
And your mashup of fanfic falls apart utterly. The author even directly admits he made up the parts about replacing the Oberth and giving the Saber a scientific mission:
These are, of course, entirely my own ideas. I have nothing canon to base these on. I can only hope that they are logical and add some fun to the game. I felt that ships this small had to have a specific mission in mind for them. Obviously they cannot do everything, like a Galaxy can, so I designed these four variants to cover missions that would replace older ships like the Orbeth
Most of the others clearly state that they get their information and references from previous star trek video games.
I never said they didn't. Alpha is sourced from the films and shows, Beta is a repository for information from licensed works, which include novels and video games. You're conveniently ignoring that the information presented from those official sources utterly contradicts your own ravings.
Not a true canon approach. I'd rather accept something that takes reference from the tech manuals AND THE SHOWS AND MOVIES and uses logic and common sense than video games bc as we clearly see video games can be extremely far from canon
Thank you for admitting that your own argument, and the sources you drew it from, are absolute bull***.
Look at this... heres a huge Scimitar with a wingspan of 1350 meters... next to it are 2 mirandas... And you want the fleet miranda happen with almost similar hull strength as that bigass scimitar? I dont see it happen, like ever.
Comments
So it's all about the outer 'ablative armor' plating is what your argument is? Yet I can quite easily, in game, put that same Ablative Armor on any other ship regardless of tier because oh, it's a console item.
Back to back post again, sorry.
Perhaps, but at the same time I was always under the general impression that 'fleet ships' were not 'rebuilds' or 'gutting out and replacing components'. But rather a whole new vessel built to the design specs but including the latest and most advanced tech which either Starfleet/the KDF/Romulan Republic, has to offer.
An interesting concept but it doesn't make any sense, Starfleet unlike other star faring races build new ships that look different to old ships. So they wouldn't build a new ship for an outdated design.
When the new tech can't be put into the old hull, that hull is taken out of production.
A fleet ship is an older ship with retrofitted with better technology.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
The USA is still using military aircraft which where built more than 50 years ago.
You have also got to consider, design and materials, a stunt plane or single engine prop planes are basicly using the same 100 year old design just more refined, like the adaptation of the now military jets.
A fleet Miranda is a nice idea for a light maneuverable cruiser with a design similar to a nebula.
Sure, it's the redshirt of the fleet but, having a reinforced hull and dhcs would give it a fighting chance in battle. I love the miranda from Star Trek 2, and the fact they fought all the way up to and throughout the dominion war says a lot about the design, it can be improved, I'd call the Miranda the T-34 of star trek, a basic and simple design that is easy to mass produce.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
The Airframe of a jet plane lasts 20 years. Australia have had to replace their technologically up to date F111 planes with temporary FA/18s waiting for the F35.
The Airframe of the plane was too stressed despite everything else on the plane being fine.
Please point me to a design that is 50 years old and isn't being phased out.
Let's also consider this is a Sci Fi game and the Miranda's are quite a bit older than 50 years in the games timeline.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
Just...no.
The Saber was developed as part of the same Anti-Borg task force that produced the Akira, Sovereign, Steamrunner, Defiant, Sovereign and Norway classes. She was made to do one thing: fight. Calling her the Defiant's younger sister is not an inaccurate title (can't say smaller since depending on your source the Saber is possibly larger than the Defiant, but that's a whole 'nother discussion).
By no stretch of the imagination was she designed as a modular scientific and exploration vessel. The closest thing to a replacement for the Miranda is in fact the Intrepid class.
I was always under the impression that the Nebula-class replaced the Miranda-class as the Starfleet workhorse ship.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
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The Nebula was a side effect of the Galaxy due to the impracticality of sending a warp drive around with every Galaxy
That's the problem with so many Fed ships having overlapping mission profiles, many do the exact same thing. My view is that comparisons should be made to the mission profile of the Miranda during its prime, not to the roles it was relegated to as it aged.
In that respect, given the long-range nature of the missions Miranda-class (plus her variants) ships were shown and described to be given, the Intrepid is the better analog in my mind.
My point being, the general design of planes hasnt gone anywhere, has engine and wings.
True, Miranda might be older than 50 years, buts its still younger than the Vulcan science vessel.
Say that to anyone even remotely involved in aviation, and let me know how long it takes them to stop laughing.
Wrong on so many bloody levels. But since you can't seem to understand that, let's go through them one by one.
Which is absolutely not the mission profile of the Saber. She has no scientific capability nor was she built for long range, extended travel.
Both the Defiant and Saber classes have variable sizes depending on your source. Defiant went from 120-170m while the Saber went from 140-220m. That's right, those two ranges overlap.
Now let's complicate it even further: the Miranda has multiple described dimensions. Its range is 180-280m.
The Defiant-class is a warship in all but name. Why exactly are you surprised it doesn't come with Bill Nye as standard equipment?
Incorrect again. The Nova class is explicitly described as a short range vessel built for short term planetary research.
You're making my point for me. The Galaxy->Intrepid relationship is nearly identical to the Constitution->Miranda relationship. Which would mean therefore that, by your logic, the Saber and Intrepid classes should fulfill nearly identical roles.
Except of course that they blatantly don't.
Please continue to confuse "tinkering with a design in our spare time" to "fast-tracking production due to an impending invasion by cyborg hostiles". The Akira and Saber classes were both initially just thought exercises that were significantly re-tooled into functional combat ships. The Nova was originally envisioned to replace the Galaxy as a long-range explorer, but was changed into a short-range science craft with minimal combat capabilities. The Steamrunner was originally a light patrol frigate and cargo hauler that became a heavy combat frigate.
Secondly, the Prometheus was designed to be a next-generation long-range tactical and exploration vessel. Basically an over-armed Intrepid geared for TRIBBLE-kicking on the border. It wasn't built to counter any specific threat.
Thirdly, of the ships in the Anti-Borg design grouping the Defiant-class is the only ship to begin its design cycle after Wolf 359, and then only because SFE called in Sisko to build them a warship. Every other ship had it's role and capabilities significantly altered to counter the new threat.
The Saber is included in that group. She was built to fight, not fly around exploring, doing research or hauling cargo. Which is exactly what the Miranda did.
Going into Aerospace Engineering 1st Year, starting September. And I found this actually quite hilarious!
Plane with no engines. Theory debunked, ala Google.
- Proof?
It fulfilled many of the same roles.
- Proof?
- Incorrect, according to the DS9TM, the Saber has only four type X phaser emitters and two photon launchers, where the Miranda had six type-7 phaser emitters, two pulse phasers and two torpedo launchers fore and aft. The Miranda had better weaponry.
Again, where are you getting all of this info from?
And yet again, lack of proof. I could say the Defiant was a result of some engineer eating a cookie, looking at the remainders and getting an inspiration. But I have no proof, and I look silly. Same here, if you are going to state "fact", then attach proof.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
Pretty sure they state in the show that it is basically a bunch of guns strapped together with an engine and shields.
I was referring to this:
Edalgo's post:
"Starfleet was working on the Akira, Nova, Saber, Steamrunner even before the borg threat. The Defiant, Sovereign and Promethious were direct results of the borg threat. Now the previous mentioned were constructed to modernize the fleet and were given more offensive and defensive capabilities than originally envisioned bc of the borg, dominion etc"
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
Something is wrong with that link. I can't connect.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
Come back when you have a source that isn't pure fan fiction. Citing PnP RPG rules made up by its own players doesn't get you anywhere.
Wrong. It's fan fiction that pays lip service to codified information, while making up buckets of stuff at the writers' whims. "A Call to Duty" isn't a licensed work, project or anything close to it. It even directly clashes with other fanon sources (poke around here if you want to see what I mean)
Compare what it has to data from licensed works, with annotated references:
Saber Class
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Saber_class
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Saber_class
Akira Class
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Akira_class
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Akira_class
Steamrunner Class
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Steamrunner_class
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Steamrunner_class
Norway Class
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Norway_class
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Norway_class
Nova Class
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Nova_class
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Nova_class
Sovereign Class
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Sovereign_class
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Sovereign_class
Miranda Class
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Miranda_class
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Miranda_class
ILM Size chart
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/akira/fc-scale-chart.gif
And your mashup of fanfic falls apart utterly. The author even directly admits he made up the parts about replacing the Oberth and giving the Saber a scientific mission:
As opposed to blatantly fabricating details and passing them off as facts like your "source" at ACTD did?
I never said they didn't. Alpha is sourced from the films and shows, Beta is a repository for information from licensed works, which include novels and video games. You're conveniently ignoring that the information presented from those official sources utterly contradicts your own ravings.
Thank you for admitting that your own argument, and the sources you drew it from, are absolute bull***.