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Don't make the D'Deridex another Failaxy

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  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    marc8219 wrote: »
    . Also funny that your sig wants a T5 Connie with 3 tac consoles which I don't have a problem with, yet you seem to still be ok with the D'D only having 2 tac consoles.

    My sig is asking for a fleet Exeter. It's a little different.
    dalolorn wrote: »
    So, failing to deliver the full details of WHY it happened? Maybe. Exaggerating or lying? Not a chance.

    If you used RCS consoles and buffs, you'd turn better than the whaleboat using the RCS consoles and the buffs. So yes, you were exaggerating.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • farmallmfarmallm Member Posts: 4,630 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    From what I read, 2 tac. consuls will limit on what it can do for added DPS. Since most other ships has 3. Even my KDF Negh'Var which is the closest ship i use to the Fed Galaxy. Which is about the same set up.

    Like on my Negh'Var I usually have the consuls for added beam, cannon and torpedo. So with the Romulan I won't get to do all 3. Which I'm hoping to have cannons mounted on it as well.

    There is something most are overlooking at as well. The Romulan ships will have that build up meter on special skills. One is a weapon power up. So with those added skills that other ships don't have. I'm sure to make advantage over it. I used to play a game that had a set up like that. I got good with it, and loved it.

    I'm a big fan of the D'Deridex, so regardless what they do with it. I will be using it, and will strike fear in my computer enemies. After I learn how to use and set it up.
    Enterprise%20C_zpsrdrf3v8d.jpg

    USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
    Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
  • ouroboros99ouroboros99 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    You can make all the threads you want, they're not going to make it the Romulan version of the Excelsior. They have other ships they plan to release. That will cost money/resources. Like the Excelsior does. And then a fleet version which will cost more money/resources.

    I'm certainly not asking for it to be an Excelsior. (My current favorite ship BTW) It should definitely be slower and less nimble than an Excelsior. I don't however think it should have less firepower than one.

    Right now the FLEET version of the D'Deridex is going to be out damaged by the basic ordinary version of the Excelsior by a significant margin. The fleet version of the D'Deridex will also cost more money. Furthermore the Excelsior isn't even a VA level ship. It's only RA.

    The non fleet Excelsior does just fine with its 3 tac consoles and Lt commander tactical. The D'Deridex only really needs the tac console. The LT commander tactical would be nice to have as well but it's not as vital.

    It's not like 3 tac consoles on a ship with 5 turnrate and nothing over a lt tac skill is going to be game breaking. It won't even be particularly good, but at least it'll be good enough to be playable at endgame without making the other members of your team wince when they see it spawn in.
  • stirling191stirling191 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    You can make all the threads you want, they're not going to make it the Romulan version of the Excelsior. They have other ships they plan to release. That will cost money/resources. Like the Excelsior does. And then a fleet version which will cost more money/resources.

    The closest thing Romulans have to an Excelsior analog is, strangely enough, the Dhelan.

    In fact, if it had a 4th rear slot it'd pretty much be what I'd put forth as the template for a light combat cruiser.
  • maddog0000doommaddog0000doom Member Posts: 1,017 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    i hope for a a turn rate increase for this ship too. id be happy with reduced hull and weapons in return for a hald decent turn rate
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • neos472neos472 Member Posts: 580 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    From what I have seen romulans rely less on straight up DPS and more of a combo of it and the singularity effects which can be devastating as well able to control the battlefield the D'deridex is a prime example since I may not have enough firepower to win a straight up fight one singularity jump, overload, or plasma ring max charge changes that.
    manipulator of time and long time space traveler
  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Then why does the Fleet T'Varo get 5 tac consoles then? To add more insult this is just a upgraded ship from the 22nd century and can do way more dps then a upgraded late 24th century ship. Its not to much to ask for it do be able to do almost as much dps with 4 tac consoles for a fleet D'D, it still wouldn't do more then the T'Varo.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
  • hasukurobihasukurobi Member Posts: 1,421 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    My sig is asking for a fleet Exeter. It's a little different.

    Yay... It is slightly newer and still retired and outdated as can be. I fail to see a significant difference.

    marc8219 wrote: »
    Then why does the Fleet T'Varo get 5 tac consoles then? To add more insult this is just a upgraded ship from the 22nd century and can do way more dps then a upgraded late 24th century ship. Its not to much to ask for it do be able to do almost as much dps with 4 tac consoles for a fleet D'D, it still wouldn't do more then the T'Varo.

    Indeed... What is up with these ancient pieces of junk out performing the newer ships? The Vor'Cha beats the Negh'Var, the Excelsior beats the Galaxy, and now the T'Varo spanks the D'deridex?... Not to mention the Kumari... Why is it assumed that the great ship builders suddenly died off and all newer heavy ships had to be garbage scows? They should be blatantly superior to their out dated models. If they were not better then WHY IN THE WORLD would they have put them into production to BEGIN WITH?
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    hasukurobi wrote: »
    Yay... It is slightly newer and still retired and outdated as can be. I fail to see a significant difference.

    The Exeter is a brand new 25th Century design. That honors the U.S.S. Exeter of 2268. It's one of the newest designs in the fleet.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • wrathofachilleswrathofachilles Member Posts: 937 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    azazel420 wrote: »
    I do think that if anything its a content design issue. There is nothing wrong with cruisers in the abstract and the galaxy is the logical layout for a cruiser at the point in the game you get it. What people complain about are just the downsides of a cruiser. Cruiser upside is big hull and lots of crew to repair hull, good shields, reasonable DPS (between that of an escort and a science vessel). Downside is that it maneuvers poorly and the DPS is not top-notch.

    In the abstract there is nothing at all wrong with ship design in the game. Escort Top DPS/Turn, worst shield output/crew, mid hull. Cruiser best hull/crew, mid DPS/shields, low turn. Science ship is Worst DPS/hull, best shields, mid turn/crew.

    The problem lies in content design where most content favors high DPS and maneuverability. Create meaningful content that favors tanking ability and moderate DPS and cruisers become viable.

    With current crew mechanics, a large crew is a liability, not a strength. They go down just as quickly if not more so than a small crew, they take much longer to get back on their feet, and the repair rates of a cruiser are not superior to those of small crew ships.

    Cruisers need a better turn rate (which they are facilitating by changing impulse thrusters and rcs, hopefully also engine turn modifiers, etc.) as a simple quality of life issue. Slower than small, agile escorts? fine. So slow that the battle is over and done with by the time the ship makes a 180 to try and get to the battle... not okay.

    Also, engineering powers need to be less hard-countered. Everyone and their grandma has hazard emitters on their ship and it clears both eject warp plasma and aceton beam. Hazard emitters, if anything, should clear the damage of aceton and warp plasma, but the movement and damage debuffs should stay. Directed energy modulation needs a massive buff so that it does more than simply scratch the paint. Boarding party should not be hard countered by tactical team. Effect reduced? fine, completely useless? not fine. Also, they need to make it so that manual shield distribution works fast enough/well enough that tac team is not basically mandatory for survival. Any skill that is useless in pvp won't likely make it to a PVE build as many players want to be able to do both, even if only casually or occasionally, and want to be able to move freely from one to the other without having to rekit their ship for each.

    Something they could do to make cruisers more necessary tanks is give them an incoming damage cap or critical immunity/reduction. That way a torp spread or high yield or uber critical hit or whatever that would normally obliterate any other ship gets capped off for hitting a cruiser. Tada, suddenly you need a cruiser because it can far more easily handle those uber spikes like no other ship can.
  • hasukurobihasukurobi Member Posts: 1,421 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Also, engineering powers need to be less hard-countered. Everyone and their grandma has hazard emitters on their ship and it clears both eject warp plasma and aceton beam. Hazard emitters, if anything, should clear the damage of aceton and warp plasma, but the movement and damage debuffs should stay. Directed energy modulation needs a massive buff so that it does more than simply scratch the paint. Boarding party should not be hard countered by tactical team. Effect reduced? fine, completely useless? not fine. Also, they need to make it so that manual shield distribution works fast enough/well enough that tac team is not basically mandatory for survival. Any skill that is useless in pvp won't likely make it to a PVE build as many players want to be able to do both, even if only casually or occasionally, and want to be able to move freely from one to the other without having to rekit their ship for each.

    It is not Hazard Emitters that is the real problem for EWP it is Attack Pattern Omega... It does not even make sense that it can get you free of something like EWP and it allows you to deal more damage and turn better with higher Def all at the same time. It is a bit silly how OP it became.

    DEM definitely needs a total reworking... They do not like ANYTHING but DOTs to deal any direct damage. I mean Transphasics are another example of absolutely worthless direct to hull hitters.

    I could not agree more with Shield Distribution.

    The Exeter is a brand new 25th Century design. That honors the U.S.S. Exeter of 2268. It's one of the newest designs in the fleet.

    Not in any Hard Canon. It is a refit of the old Constitution class even in the game. That hardly makes it cutting edge. The Odyssey is the "Brand New 25th Century design" of cruisers. It is for nostalgia sake and to fill a gap in the C-Store ships at best.

    You really want a T5 Conny but they have already said that under no circumstance will that be the case. Though, I totally agree if you want to say that it makes no sense to have the D'Kyr and Kumari running around at T5 but not the Conny considering the age gap between THOSE ships.
  • wrathofachilleswrathofachilles Member Posts: 937 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    hasukurobi wrote: »
    It is not Hazard Emitters that is the real problem for EWP it is Attack Pattern Omega... It does not even make sense that it can get you free of something like EWP and it allows you to deal more damage and turn better with higher Def all at the same time. It is a bit silly how OP it became.

    DEM definitely needs a total reworking... They do not like ANYTHING but DOTs to deal any direct damage. I mean Transphasics are another example of absolutely worthless direct to hull hitters.

    I could not agree more with Shield Distribution.




    Not in any Hard Canon. It is a refit of the old Constitution class even in the game. That hardly makes it cutting edge. The Odyssey is the "Brand New 25th Century design" of cruisers. It is for nostalgia sake and to fill a gap in the C-Store ships at best.

    You really want a T5 Conny but they have already said that under no circumstance will that be the case. Though, I totally agree if you want to say that it makes no sense to have the D'Kyr and Kumari running around at T5 but not the Conny considering the age gap between THOSE ships.

    Indeed, the movement debuff immunity needs to be removed from attack pattern omega, tractor beams and eject warp plasma are pretty much the only two things that will really wreck an escort's day if they get caught in them, but two copies of attack pattern omega and you're immune half of the time.

    The exeter, if I'm not mistaken, is supposed to be all new, contemporary technology that was simply arranged within a hull shape similar to the constitution. I don't think most "modern" ships are supposed to gain all that much by "new hull geometry" so I don't see why a constitution "shape" using all modern technology and materials shouldn't be a competitive ship.

    We have brel's running around at top tier too you know...
  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I am pleased to announced the D'D is now in great shape, has excellent boff layout and much better console layout.
    We've been monitoring the feedback closely, and I'd like to run two specific changes behind the people here.

    -We could swap the Mogai back to Tactical/Science and the Dhelan back to Tactical/Engineering. I can see that a lot of people preferred the old setup, but there seem to be some people who prefer the new version as well. The Mogai is the "heavier" ship and more comparable to a Destroyer in turn rate and hull, so Engineering seems to be a little more appropriate, but I can see the argument that the consoles for the Mogai have a more "Science" feel.

    This could occur either by just swapping the current Dhelan Retrofit and Mogai Retrofit seating, or by giving the Dhelan Retrofit the current Mogai Retrofit seating and reverting the Mogai Retrofit back to its old seating.

    I'd like to see more arguments for one side or another that involve more than personal preference.

    -I am considering changing the D'deridex Retrofit to the following:

    Ensign Tac, Lt. Com Tac, Commander Eng, Lt. Com Sci, En Universal

    Consoles would most likely be adjusted as well if this change was made, probably to 3-3-3 on the Retrofit and 3-4-3 (4 Eng) on the Fleet version.

    As always, these are just possible changes - nothing is set in stone.



    link to dev post here
    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=9764441&postcount=140
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
  • lordhavelocklordhavelock Member Posts: 2,248 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    marc8219 wrote: »
    I am pleased to announced the D'D is now in great shape, has excellent boff layout and much better console layout...
    It's "now" (?!?) in great shape, or they are considering to make it so?

    You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    It's "now" (?!?) in great shape, or they are considering to make it so?

    Sorry I was a few hours premature and didn't notice that due to my enthusiasim, but the changes are now going foward.
    Thank you all for the feedback.

    I will be going ahead and making the proposed changes to the D'deridex Retrofit and the Fleet D'deridex.

    The Dhelan and Mogai issue is a lot trickier; some people seem to like the current setup, others would prefer to revert it. There are some compelling arguments for both sides. For the time being, I am keeping the BOFFs and consoles as-is.

    As always, these changes are not final, and still subject to possible change.

    We will continue to monitor the feedback here, and I'm looking forward to seeing a lot more comments once we unlock access to all of the higher level content and ships.


    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=9774451&postcount=224
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    hasukurobi wrote: »
    Not in any Hard Canon.

    Hard canon? The STO ship doesn't exist in hard canon.
    The Odyssey is the "Brand New 25th Century design" of cruisers.

    So is the Nomad, the Envoy, the Stargazer, the Monarch, the Imperial, etc, etc, etc. All of these 25th century NEW designs. All of these Cryptic made designs.
    but they have already said that under no circumstance will that be the case.

    Nobody said that. A couple of years ago, DStahl said CBS said no to it. Back then. No one's said anything official since then. And DStahl didn't say it was refused "under no circumstance."

    And JVC already tweeted to Bran that he'd be down with a T5 Connie Three Pack just a week or so ago anyways.

    It's not set in stone like you make it out to be. And never has been. But setting ALL of that aside ... the Exeter, Excalibur and Vesper are all Cryptic designed and Cryptic skins. A Fleet variant featuring those skins would be an easy sidestep of any and all Constitution issues.

    EVERY OTHER T2 SHIP has a fleet version. It's stupid that there isn't a T2 Cruiser Fleet Variant.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    You forgot that the Venture is also 25th century variant :P
    "Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
  • ouroboros99ouroboros99 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    dev Blog wrote:
    -I am considering changing the D'deridex Retrofit to the following:

    Ensign Tac, Lt. Com Tac, Commander Eng, Lt. Com Sci, En Universal

    Consoles would most likely be adjusted as well if this change was made, probably to 3-3-3 on the Retrofit and 3-4-3 (4 Eng) on the Fleet version.

    This layout is ideal for the D'Deridex, absolutely perfect. How do I go about sending this man a ham, and/or gift basket.
  • bpharmabpharma Member Posts: 2,022
    edited May 2013
    Personally I hope the fleet D'Deridex keeps it's boff layout, it was very versatile looking and would fill a large number of roles and builds with that Lt.Commander universal. If it's the same as the retrofit though I think it won't be the ship of choice for anyone but the D'Deridex fans but at least it's better than the galaxy-r.

    I do think the D'Deridex retrofit suffers from being a jack of all trades master of none. While some may like that I personally would rather see a versatile ship that can go heavily into an area that you need it to go into. The console layout is a bit more balanced but then I had no problems with it before, just means I can get moar dakka out of it for less effort =D

    It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
    A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

    Has damage got out of control?
    This is the last thing I will post.
  • lordhavelocklordhavelock Member Posts: 2,248 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    marc8219 wrote: »
    Sorry I was a few hours premature and didn't notice that due to my enthusiasim, but the changes are now going foward...
    Yes, I saw that this morning. Woot! :D
    ...And JVC already tweeted to Bran that he'd be down with a T5 Connie Three Pack just a week or so ago anyways...
    Who's JVC?

    You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
  • wrathofachilleswrathofachilles Member Posts: 937 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    bpharma wrote: »
    Personally I hope the fleet D'Deridex keeps it's boff layout, it was very versatile looking and would fill a large number of roles and builds with that Lt.Commander universal. If it's the same as the retrofit though I think it won't be the ship of choice for anyone but the D'Deridex fans but at least it's better than the galaxy-r.

    I do think the D'Deridex retrofit suffers from being a jack of all trades master of none. While some may like that I personally would rather see a versatile ship that can go heavily into an area that you need it to go into. The console layout is a bit more balanced but then I had no problems with it before, just means I can get moar dakka out of it for less effort =D

    What are you talking about with a lt.com universal on the D'deridex? I have seen a lt. universal in the ambassador boff seating it had, and an ensign universal in the recent change, but no lt.com universal... unless I've missed another update somewhere.
  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    bpharma wrote: »
    Personally I hope the fleet D'Deridex keeps it's boff layout, it was very versatile looking and would fill a large number of roles and builds with that Lt.Commander universal. If it's the same as the retrofit though I think it won't be the ship of choice for anyone but the D'Deridex fans but at least it's better than the galaxy-r.

    I do think the D'Deridex retrofit suffers from being a jack of all trades master of none. While some may like that I personally would rather see a versatile ship that can go heavily into an area that you need it to go into. The console layout is a bit more balanced but then I had no problems with it before, just means I can get moar dakka out of it for less effort =D

    I am pretty sure the previous boff layout was this below. One of the main complaints in this thread and others was lack of access to Lt Cmdr Tac.

    Lt Tac
    En Tac

    Cmdr Eng

    Lt Cmr sci

    Lt uni

    2 tac consoles, 3 sci, 5 eng for fleet version

    Before that it was even worse, had same layout as galaxy.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
  • dalnar83reborndalnar83reborn Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Do not worry, those people who complained about lack of lt.cmd tac and tac console will soon ,aka when the expansion is launched, complain about their crappy D'Deridex that explodes too quick. :o
    --- sarcasm is a dish best served hot ---
  • bpharmabpharma Member Posts: 2,022
    edited May 2013
    lol dalnar. Must be my mistake then, thought the fleet d'deridex had a lt universal.

    It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
    A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

    Has damage got out of control?
    This is the last thing I will post.
  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Do not worry, those people who complained about lack of lt.cmd tac and tac console will soon ,aka when the expansion is launched, complain about their crappy D'Deridex that explodes too quick. :o

    A little jealous that the Galaxy didn't get a makeover also?:P

    I am not worried about it exploding to quick, Cmdr eng and lt Cmdr sci is all you need to make a tanky ship, it just won't have too much extra heals to give out. You can use doffs and keep EPTS3 up permanently and run Aux2sif3 with the heal proc doffs, and still have room for an RSP and run TSS3, and HE2, PH1, ST1 in the sci and uni slots, or move it over to tac for 2 tac teams. Lots of options to make this ship tanky, and if that fails there is always evasives/ramming speed/APO then battle cloak.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    bpharma wrote: »
    lol dalnar. Must be my mistake then, thought the fleet d'deridex had a lt universal.

    You were mistaken in an earlier post where you said that it had a lt Cmdr uni in its previous layout, you are correct now, the uni was Lt.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
  • tebsutebsu Member Posts: 372 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    "failaxy".. oh my god, please... someone stop the internet language...

    what do you expect from such a big ship?
    What ? Calaway.
  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    tebsu wrote: »
    "failaxy".. oh my god, please... someone stop the internet language...

    what do you expect from such a big ship?

    I didn't make the term up, it is what the Galaxy class often is labled as. Anyway the issue is moot, one of the main problems was the boff and console layout which is now much much better, and the changes to RCS consoles, emergency power to engines, and impulse thruster skill will help the turn a lot. That should be enough but you can also slot omega, and you can battelcoak for more turn. It also has enough sci to slot a tractor without giving up sci heals.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
  • lord7tareqlord7tareq Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    marc8219 wrote: »
    I didn't make the term up, it is what the Galaxy class often is labled as. Anyway the issue is moot, one of the main problems was the boff and console layout which is now much much better, and the changes to RCS consoles, emergency power to engines, and impulse thruster skill will help the turn a lot. That should be enough but you can also slot omega, and you can battelcoak for more turn. It also has enough sci to slot a tractor without giving up sci heals.


    Aye, I'm really happy with the new D'deridex boff layout. :)

    Unfortunately we will never see a Galaxy with a similar layout, due to the fact that many people already own a Galaxy. If they change the boff slots there will be people who had a specific super rare and expensive boff for their Galaxy that they suddenly can't slot anymore, or simply a build that they really like and can't use anymore, and they will rage.

    Adding a second Galaxy version to the C-store with the different boff layout will cause people who already own a Galaxy but do want the changed boff layout to rage, as they will have to pay a second time for their Galaxy. There really is no way to win for the developers.
  • artfulmerkageartfulmerkage Member Posts: 294 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Retrofit D'deridex (including Fleet variation) has an Ensign Tactical and Lieutenant Commander Tactical.

    /thread
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Valdus | Charn | Costello | Typhus | Thyran
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