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Don't make the D'Deridex another Failaxy

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  • stirling191stirling191 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    dalnar83 wrote: »
    They cannot raise the turn rate of DD and still claim they are following the IP, there is simply no room since they gimp the Galaxy with 6 turn rate and it is used as benchmark for DD performance.

    Unless they unbork the Galaxy (and preferably other cruisers in the process).

    Kind of like how the entire EPtX fiasco (since it's apparently driven by the notion that "emergency power" shouldn't be available all the time) could be entirely avoided by removing the word "emergency" from the power names.

    Sometimes to fix a problem, you have to redefine it.
  • xantrisxantris Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    skollulfr wrote: »
    im guessing the mogai will be a km wide escort for all the sense this game makes.


    For all intents and purposes, that's pretty much exactly what Mogai are in this game
  • originpioriginpi Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    marc8219 wrote: »
    The D"Deridex was also supposed to have more firepower then the Galaxy, which is why Picard was always hesitant to fight one solo, and prefered to talk, or have allies like Klingon Vorcha's show up to help. I don't think the Enterprise itself ever managed to solo a D'Deridex.

    So while I would like a little better turn, that is not the main fault I see in it, I am concerned with the boff layout mostly. I know this game is slanted towards cannons, I use DHC on everything that can mount them, even a Bortasqu, I am experienced enough to make slow turn ships work with DHC, but I can't do it if it has the horrible boff layout of a Galaxy. If they are going to make the ship have bad turn, it better get 5 tac consoles and Lt Cmdr tac at least like a bort does.

    Unless I missed something while reading, it can't equip DHC or DC.

    Also, I am against this kinda of call for homogenous ship classes. Yeah, we have a problem: Engineering and Science powers (apart from some heals) suck and have long cooldowns and need to be improved. FIght for this, rather than avoid the problem and demand that all engineering and science heavy ships play like escorts.

    There is no reason why every cruiser should have more than a LT tac slot.
  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    originpi wrote: »
    There is no reason why every cruiser should have more than a LT tac slot.

    You mean, except for the dps oriented content that doesn't generally need dedicated tanks or healers? :rolleyes:
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  • captainbmoneycaptainbmoney Member Posts: 1,323 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    This is the same Boff Layout I also want for the Breen Sarr Theln WarCarrier

    Commander Eng
    LTCM Sci.
    Ens Eng
    Lt Tac
    Lt Tac

    But honestly I would PREFER an Ambassador Layout for D'Deridex Retrofit.

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  • travelingmastertravelingmaster Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    reynoldsxd wrote: »
    no. Cryptic has a really bad track record on this kind of issue so piping up NOW is the right time to do it. Especially if they expect people to dump money on their expansion.

    What I see here is people looking at the first iteration of a ship on Tribble, a full month before it's going to be released, and then pissing and moaning about it being a failure. Ya'll are ripping the devs a new one over what's effectively an incomplete prototype of what will be released.

    As for the starter/legacy packs. . .that's a gamble you'll have to take. I don't recommend it, even though you're 'saving' money. . .because I don't actually know what's gonna end up on Holodeck, and neither does any other player. Only someone with money to throw away would buy these packs. It's like pre-ordering a console game only to find it's TRIBBLE, and then whining about how you threw away money.

    So, I'll say it again: JUST SIT DOWN AND WAIT, STOP SPECULATING. Save your scathing criticisms and complaints for when it's released, and reserve the constructive criticism for the Tribble feedback sections.
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  • momawmomaw Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    What I see here is people looking at the first iteration of a ship on Tribble, a full month before it's going to be released, and then pissing and moaning about it being a failure. Ya'll are ripping the devs a new one over what's effectively an incomplete prototype of what will be released.

    The best time to complain about this stuff is before it is released, because people are actively working on it. After release, the people who would be doing the changes get reassigned to other stuff and it gets exponentially harder.
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    What I see here is people looking at the first iteration of a ship on Tribble,

    So a couple years back, they released some stats on the Nebula. They were terrible. They got changed then the ship was put on Tribble. Still terrible.

    Look at the Nebula today.

    Yup. Terrible.
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  • originpioriginpi Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    dalnar83 wrote: »
    You mean, except for the dps oriented content that doesn't generally need dedicated tanks or healers? :rolleyes:

    Then argue that they fix the content, not make all the ships into escorts.
  • jrq2jrq2 Member Posts: 263 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I?m also not too happy with the BO layout of the D?Deridex

    At the very least give it a Universal Ensign Slot

    Due to the VERY limited amount of ships they have I thought that they would have made them all with Universal Commander and maybe universal Ensign BO slots to address the what ship goes with what career path.

    I also noticed that all T5 Warbirds only swing Tactical or Engineering, no Science.

    Look like Science Captains have been left behind.

    :(
  • nierionnierion Member Posts: 326 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    More variation in how ships operate would be nice. Rather than being a heavily escort focused game..... it'd be nice to see the ships like D'Deridex, Galaxy and other vessels science etc have more of an important role when it comes to missions / endgame, rather than just DPS. For me, the space combat sometimes feels too Star Wars, it's almost like Abrams helped design it.
    api.php?action=streamfile&path=%2F187011%2FFleet%20Files%2FMember%20Signatures%2FNierion.png&u=146876
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    jrq2 wrote: »

    I also noticed that all T5 Warbirds only swing Tactical or Engineering, no Science.

    Look like Science Captains have been left behind.

    D'Tan and his rag tag bunch of farm boys don't really have room in their republic for scientists. Maybe later.
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  • wrathofachilleswrathofachilles Member Posts: 937 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    As I stated in another thread:
    Well the saving grace of the D'Deridex may be the battle cloak. If I remember correctly, the bop's battle cloak increases turn rate, so if romulan ships also get a buff to turn rate from batttle cloak, their poor maneuverability while decloaked may be somewhat offset once they cloak, which would truly emphasize their cloaking tendencies and the need to use it strategically in combat.

    Though I must admit I would be disappointed by three engineering ensign slots... I'd probably much prefer that ensign be universal so one could have one extra science ability or better afford the mandatory tac team and still have two tactical attack abilities. But since they are reworking emergency power abilities, they may rework other abilities too so that being so engineering heavy may not be such a gimping, or perhaps they'll modify the team abilities so that tac team isn't the gold standard for defense anymore. If that's the case, the ship might be just fine... we'll have to see.

    Additionally, I have been playing around with the war bortasqu which has a 5.5 turn rate and with two rcs and with full power to weapons, rest to engines, it actually turns surprisingly well... actually I think it might turn better than anything I've manged to do with the ody (with the exception of saucer sep). I don't know if it has a better inertia rating on it or what, but if a similar feat can be pulled off with the D'Deridex, I don't think the turn rate would be an absolute horror... any more so than all cruiser turn rates. And again, if the battle cloak gives a boost to turn rate, that might make the ship far more manageable. For all we know, as the masters of cloak, the romulans might even get a higher turn boost from battle cloak than the bop or a turn boost plus a speed boost to quickly re-position like how donatra zips around after cloaking.

    I am not so concerned with the player version not being able to do what the npc version can though, the npc Kar'Fi can eject warp plasma while the player version can't. Though I am hopeful they will be reworking eng and sci powers. The once "I win" that was grav well where it sucked you in and crushed you in seconds wasn't cool, but since it's lost nearly all its bite, it should have a nigh inescapable pull. Tykens rift currently does next to nothing unless the target is stationary. I think it would be cool if tyken's rift was more crowd control in that it would instantly suck all power out of a ship being an effective disable, however, it would make the ship caught in it invulnerable to damage as any energy weapons fired into the rift are absorbed and torps lose power. Though I may not be fully thinking through the horrible, horrible consequences that could come of a power like that...

    Directed energy modulation does little more than scratch the paint on the hull of whatever you're firing at, and with hazard emitters clearing both aceton beam AND eject warp plasma and with attack pattern omega removing the move debuff of warp plasma, those skills are far too easily countered.

    I like the buff to the non-shield emergency powers, but not sure how I feel about the cool/uptime changes, and if the problem is with it being called "emergency" power, lets rename it "reserve power" or something else concise since "divert all power from non-essential systems to:X" would be too lengthy.

    And with tac team the gold standard in defense skills, something would have to be done so that ships with such limited tac powers as the D'Deridex and galaxy and several other cruisers and sci ships aren't limited even further in tac options by basically having to take tac team if they want to survive.

    So... yeah... I'm not overly concerned about the D'Deridex stats as they are, but I'm hopeful for a touch of improvement/saving graces from battle cloak, singularity powers, perhaps more singularity abilities/power available to it since it's bigger, reworking of eng/sci abilites, etc.
  • decroniadecronia Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Just...no.

    Inertial dampeners keep things inside the ship from getting salsified by the extreme acceleration forces incurred during spaceflight (especially FTL travel). They have no effect whatsoever on the ship's flight characteristics.

    True however in space there is effectively nothing to cause resisitance and thus inertia, so the ships should be able to turn quickly. I am not saying it is not there it is just so small as to be negligable. You can't apply the rules that affect ships and planes on Earth to those in space, and even less so in a game that is based on sci-fi. This part of the post is incorrect as pointed out to me please ignore it.

    I would prefer a more dynamic turn rate, the faster your forward momentum the slower your turn speed and the slower your forward momentum the faster your turn speed, this is currently how I manage my banking arc. Make it a trade off for all ships. How it would be explained I have no idea though I am sure someone could come up with a reasonable explaination as to why this is.
  • amosov78amosov78 Member Posts: 1,495 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    marc8219 wrote: »
    The D"Deridex was also supposed to have more firepower then the Galaxy, which is why Picard was always hesitant to fight one solo, and prefered to talk, or have allies like Klingon Vorcha's show up to help. I don't think the Enterprise itself ever managed to solo a D'Deridex.

    So while I would like a little better turn, that is not the main fault I see in it, I am concerned with the boff layout mostly. I know this game is slanted towards cannons, I use DHC on everything that can mount them, even a Bortasqu, I am experienced enough to make slow turn ships work with DHC, but I can't do it if it has the horrible boff layout of a Galaxy. If they are going to make the ship have bad turn, it better get 5 tac consoles and Lt Cmdr tac at least like a bort does.

    Turn rate doesn't quite so concern me since I see the ship, with its battle cloak, engaging in more positional combat situations.
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  • kalvorax#3775 kalvorax Member Posts: 1,663 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    just to note...the REFIT version of the DD has a LT TAC, COMM Eng, LT SCI and LT UNI....its almost like they are forcing us to buy a ship just for a better layout -_-...that we cant even test until LoR goes live
  • misterde3misterde3 Member Posts: 4,195 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    decronia wrote: »
    True however in space there is effectively nothing to cause resisitance and thus inertia, so the ships should be able to turn quickly.

    :confused:Do you even konw physics?:eek:
    Resistance AKA friction and inertia are two completely different things.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertia
  • decroniadecronia Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Do you even konw physics?
    Resistance AKA friction and inertia are two completely different things.

    I am not that up on science, though thank you for the info, you learn something new every day. I am NOT being sarcastic here.
  • amosov78amosov78 Member Posts: 1,495 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    cynder2012 wrote: »
    just to note...the REFIT version of the DD has a LT TAC, COMM Eng, LT SCI and LT UNI....its almost like they are forcing us to buy a ship just for a better layout -_-...that we cant even test until LoR goes live

    It'd only be worth it to buy the version available at VA rank, much like the Exploration Cruiser Retrofit. It'd be nice if the Exploration Cruiser Retrofit also got a universal BO station to match.
    U.S.S. Endeavour NCC-71895 - Nebula-class
    Commanding Officer: Captain Pyotr Ramonovich Amosov
    Dedication Plaque: "Nil Intentatum Reliquit"
  • ouroboros99ouroboros99 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    This should be pretty easy. All they need to do is take the lt commander engineer from the Galaxy and make him a tactical to show that the D'deridex is more combat focused than the Galaxy.

    Then you'd have less survivability but more alpha strike punch from having access to teir 3 tac abilities, which jives well with the "decloak and fire" design philosophy.

    Then you just do the same for the consoles. Move one of the sciences to tactical to show that it's a Warbird and not a "Scansgaseousanomoliesbird".

    So in the end you have

    lt tac, lt cm tac

    cm eng

    lt sci

    en eng

    4 eng consoles
    3 tac consoles
    2 sci consoles

    Now it feels like a battlecruiser/warship like it's supposed to be, and not an explorer and research vessel like the Galaxy.

    The turn rate is fine, it should be slow given how big it is. It should also however have shield and hull points to likewise reflect how big it is.

    I'd also argue for a 5/3 weapon split front to back instead of the usual 4/4 as the Warbirds always struck me as having a forward weapon facing bias. That's pie in the sky stuff that'll never happen though. I'll be happy if it doesn't get saddled with 4/3.
  • ozy83ozy83 Member Posts: 156 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    The D'Deredix is both an icon and a cruiser. Thus we can infer that it, like the galaxy class, will be relegated to the echelons of uncompetitiveness.

    Welcome to Star Trek: Escorts Online. :)
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  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    ozy83 wrote: »
    The D'Deredix is both an icon and a cruiser. Thus we can infer that it, like the galaxy class, will be relegated to the echelons of uncompetitiveness.

    Welcome to Star Trek: Escorts Online. :)

    Don't worry, the devs make sure the Galaxy will remain the worst end-game cruiser in STO.
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  • momawmomaw Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    It has been stated many many many many many times that the stats and layout of the D'deridex and other high-level ships are not finalized.

    Which you should all have figured out for yourself, seeing as it's on the test server, not the release server. Why not head over to Tribble and see what's actually going on instead of getting all bent out of shape over something that's not an issue yet.
  • wrathofachilleswrathofachilles Member Posts: 937 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    This should be pretty easy. All they need to do is take the lt commander engineer from the Galaxy and make him a tactical to show that the D'deridex is more combat focused than the Galaxy.

    Then you'd have less survivability but more alpha strike punch from having access to teir 3 tac abilities, which jives well with the "decloak and fire" design philosophy.

    Then you just do the same for the consoles. Move one of the sciences to tactical to show that it's a Warbird and not a "Scansgaseousanomoliesbird".

    So in the end you have

    lt tac, lt cm tac

    cm eng

    lt sci

    en eng

    4 eng consoles
    3 tac consoles
    2 sci consoles

    Now it feels like a battlecruiser/warship like it's supposed to be, and not an explorer and research vessel like the Galaxy.

    The turn rate is fine, it should be slow given how big it is. It should also however have shield and hull points to likewise reflect how big it is.

    I'd also argue for a 5/3 weapon split front to back instead of the usual 4/4 as the Warbirds always struck me as having a forward weapon facing bias. That's pie in the sky stuff that'll never happen though. I'll be happy if it doesn't get saddled with 4/3.


    I doubt they would do it cause universals on a "free" ship are few an far between, but if they just made the ltc. spot universal, I think it would well reflect the "this ship has to do everything" as the backbone of the romulan fleet, and it can be taken more tac heavy, more eng heavy, or more sci heavy depending on the circumstances/mission/captain flying it. That to me would be ideal.

    I think the console layout on the D'Deridex on tribble is already supposed to be slightly more tactical than the galaxy in that it has 3 tac consoles rather than three sci consoles. Additionally, I think the ship has slightly more hitpoints and something silly like a 1.01 modifier that just ever so slightly gives it like 1% more shields... unless it's a typo and it's supposed to be 1.1
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    momaw wrote: »
    Which you should all have figured out for yourself, seeing as it's on the test server, not the release server.

    As past history indicates, a lot of stuff never gets changed while on test and really only gets noticed once it goes live. So while I appreciate what you're saying you should also appreciate that people who've dealt with Cryptic's testing protocols in the past definitely have experience in seeing something go unchanged and get released bugged or mistake-filled.
    Why not head over to Tribble and see what's actually going on instead of getting all bent out of shape over something that's not an issue yet.

    A lot of folks still can't access Romulans on Tribble. So what would be the point?
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  • chu78chu78 Member Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Ok, if any devs are reading this, please keep in mind that it's called a Romulan Warbird. Not a Sciencebird or Engineerbird. Please give the final version the tac stations/consoles it deserves.
  • ouroboros99ouroboros99 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    The point of early testing would be to spot potential problems early before they're multiplied and entrenched into problems that become harder to correct.

    The D'deridex having the bridge officer and console layout of the Galaxy would qualify as a problem. The fact the Galaxy is a ship that is almost never seen in high level play is sufficient evidence to prove that the combination of that Boff/console layout and ship type is not something that should be duplicated or imitated.

    Given that the Romulans will have such a limited number of ships available to them at launch every effort needs to be made to ensure that those ships that are available are each useful and competitive in their own way. No one wants to see a Romulan faction where everyone flies endgame ship X, because endgame ship X is clearly and obviously better than endgame ships Y,W, and Z.

    The reality of the game as it stands is that "tank" type builds that can sustain a lot of damage, but put out virtually none, have little value in end game content where everything is about DPS and timers that cause you to fail optionals if your team doesn't have enough DPS. I'm saying this as a Cruiser captain. Damage potential coming from boff layouts and consoles is the reason why cruisers like the fleet Excelsior are fantastic and the Galaxy dread that I also own is almost never played.

    While it's bad enough that ships like the Galaxy and Galaxy dread are forever stuck filling this tanking role that isn't required or wanted in endgame teams, the idea of creating more NEW ships to also sit on the bench next to them is even worse. Especially when it's being done on something like the TNG D'deridex warbird, which given that a lot of us likely grew up watching TNG, will no doubt sell like crazy so long as it doesn't suck too bad to bear.

    The time to voice any kind of disapproval for this is now though, while it's still being tested. That's the point of beta testing. If you don't like it speak up now and say so and hopefully, if the stars align and the magical Romulan faeries are in a good mood, it'll be fixed before it goes live and Romulan players won't get stuck with a mile long paperweight where a historic battlecruiser should have been.

    I haven't flown it myself but I've flown the Galaxy dread and spent ages trying to find a role and setup for it that didn't feel underpowered. If the D'deridex is just the galaxy dread in a green skin with a better cloaking device, worse turn rate and massive power generation penalties in exchange for gimmick powers it will be one of the worst endgame ships in Star Trek Online.

    Please make it not so.
  • radaikofromulusradaikofromulus Member Posts: 164 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    xantris wrote: »
    But that's not what a D'Dreidex is.... it's a bruiser cruiser. In fact, it shouldn't be able to even fit cannons. It's suppose to be a beam boat.

    You can't just put your favorite BO layout on a ship because you like it and be damned with the canon.

    It has cannons in canon.
  • radaikofromulusradaikofromulus Member Posts: 164 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Granted it's been awhile since I've seen every episode showing a D'Deridex, but I only recall seeing beams and torpedoes. No cannons.

    If I'm wrong by all means please correct me with an ep/vid link.

    http://youtu.be/yLKwSJswQIY

    This clip not only shows a Warbird with disruptors, but it maneuvers behind a smaller, more agile craft and it turns 180 degrees in about 3-4 seconds. Not bad for a fat whale!
  • kalvorax#3775 kalvorax Member Posts: 1,663 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    for those wondering what the current build is of the DD Retrofit

    http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/9426/scrnshotn.png
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