Hrmmm, perhaps I've been taking for granted how I spend points. I just did a quick glance at a blank build over on STOacademy, turned of requirements, and for pretty much every toon I spend 234k of the 300k I spend in space the same - regardless of career or ship. All my guys are also aliens that tend to have both Efficient/Theorist. Playing around with that spreadsheet, without those skills/traits...yeah, it's a different world. I can see where if folks are used to spending those points - that additional 10-16 or more power they're losing by comparison...perhaps do not have because of gear choices so it's even more...
...they'd have a different view on the Singularity Abilities.
What are the "expectations" from Cryptic on what folks power levels should be with the 40 base? Is it based on them having a certain investment in skill points/traits/gear...or...is it just base?
Though in fairness about 4 people in my fleet told me "don't buy an Odyssey they turn like a beached whale" and I have plenty of fun in that thing all the same, no matter what anyone says.
Very true, the larger, slower ships do have a problem turning, but they make up for it in durability and well, have you ever hit someone with 6-8 beam weapons at the same time? massive drain on weapon power but still epic
As for the ships, I feel that the weapons slots may be a bit unbalanced for my style of play, but i guess the figuring out how to properly layout a new ship is half the fun. (by unbalanced i mean that i don't like the layout of the weapon slots, my opinion and not binding for everyone) still I love the gameplay and content, great job guys!
So what is a maximum potenial output for any end game ship? And what is a realistic one without gimping other stats?
A Warp Core can go higher than a Singularity Core. Singularity Cores are still subject to the 125 cap while the Warp Core can 130 in a single subsystem (Shields, Engines, Auxiliary)...
...the Weapon Overcapping thing I've never seen officially addressed, so I'm not sure what Cryptic's view on that - though, you should be able to go higher by a small amount with the Warp Core.
As to how high you can get a certain number of subsystems though - going to depend on skill build, ship, gear, eh?
A Warp Core can go higher than a Singularity Core. Singularity Cores are still subject to the 125 cap while the Warp Core can 130 in a single subsystem (Shields, Engines, Auxiliary)...
...the Weapon Overcapping thing I've never seen officially addressed, so I'm not sure what Cryptic's view on that - though, you should be able to go higher by a small amount with the Warp Core.
As to how high you can get a certain number of subsystems though - going to depend on skill build, ship, gear, eh?
So, on average at end game, what are power allocation for weps, shield, eng, and aux going to be like?
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Hrmmm, say I was to wave a magic wand and take my Fed Eng out of his Chel Grett, make him a Romulan, and drop him in...pretty much any Warbird (majority are +10 Wep/+5 Eng like the Chel Grett). MACO Shield, Borg, 0Point, Efficient/Theorist, 6 Engine/Shield/Efficiency/Potential, 3 Weapon...cycling EPtS1/EPtW1...hrmm, think that's it. Tribble would add the Manifold stuff. Say I go with a 5 pip Shield Core and add in the Nukara console (dropping...er...something).
Chel Grett on Holo
125(161)/100
104/50
64/25
50/25
Warbird on Tribble
125(171)/100
119/30
67/15
54/15
Even without the 5 pip for Shields, he'd still come out ahead on Tribble compared to Holo...while picking up those Singularity Abilities.
If he weren't an Eng though?
125(161)/100
109/30...99/30 without the 5 pip.
57/15
44/15
+5 or -5 Shields
-7 Engine
-6 Auxiliary
edit: Forgot the pesky +30 vs. +15 between Trib and Holo again.
The Dhealan set bonus seems geared toward defensive heavy, but its got 2 engi slots, the only console that it has that might be considered kinda science is the sabotage probe but it could easily be engineering too...... Why is it not getting aux power instead , if this is indeed suppose to be science heavy escort.. Make a ton more sense if it was engineering heavy like it was before... Becuase both the set bonus and the consoles look to support this.
The mogai the set bonus seems to be Tactical, while it very much is engineering type buff like Nadion Inversion. But the consoles themselves are very much science, as they deal with draining shields and using the ship's particle generators. With out a good amount of science consoles these abilities will not function quite as well.
The lack of consistency in the stats vs the consoles vs the console sets seems a bit confusing on what you want these ships to be.
Hrmmm, say I was to wave a magic wand and take my Fed Eng out of his Chel Grett, make him a Romulan, and drop him in...pretty much any Warbird (majority are +10 Wep/+5 Eng like the Chel Grett). MACO Shield, Borg, 0Point, Efficient/Theorist, 6 Engine/Shield/Efficiency/Potential, 3 Weapon...cycling EPtS1/EPtW1...hrmm, think that's it. Tribble would add the Manifold stuff. Say I go with a 5 pip Shield Core and add in the Nukara console (dropping...er...something).
Chel Grett on Holo
125(161)/100
104/50
64/25
50/25
Warbird on Tribble
125(171)/100
119/30
67/15
54/15
Even without the 5 pip for Shields, he'd still come out ahead on Tribble compared to Holo...while picking up those Singularity Abilities.
If he weren't an Eng though?
125(161)/100
109/30...99/30 without the 5 pip.
57/15
44/15
+5 or -5 Shields
-7 Engine
-6 Auxiliary
edit: Forgot the pesky +30 vs. +15 between Trib and Holo again.
I'm sorry but this dosn't make any sense. how are you getting +10 to weapons, +15 to shields, +5 to engines and +4 to aux with the -40 power?
the Chel Grett has 40 more base power than the warbird yet has less power levels?
and even the 125/109/57/44? how? i must be really missing something because this math makes no sense to me.
So, on average at end game, what are power allocation for weps, shield, eng, and aux going to be like?
Can't answer average by any means. Can only tell you what my single 50 Sci in his Ha'nom would sport. He's the only guy I bothered leveling up to 50 after the wipe. I'll add in the Borg and 0Point to what he's got. He's got 6 Engine/Shield/Efficiency/Potential, 3 Aux/Wep, Efficient/Theorist, the Nukara Engines provide various boosts to Shield Power, and the Nukara console gives a bonus to shields.
Here's his subsystem preset levels based on the above (not using any EPtX abilities)...
Attack
116/100
69/30
47/15
54/15
Defense (adjusting shields down 5/wep up 5 to avoid shield overcap)
I'm sorry but this dosn't make any sense. how are you getting +10 to weapons, +15 to shields, +5 to engines and +4 to aux with the -40 power?
the Chel Grett has 40 more base power than the warbird yet has less power levels?
and even the 125/109/57/44? how? i must be really missing something because this math makes no sense to me.
EPS Manifold gives +10 power to all each time you use EPtX. Cycling EPtX/EPtY means full uptime on the additional +10 power. That's not available on Holo - it's a new Eng trait on Tribble.
5 pips of Singularity power with an Injection Singularity Core provides +15 Eng Power.
Efficient Captain on Holo provides +15 Efficiency. It's +30 on Tribble.
The Nukara console (not available on Holo) provides +5 Shield power.
Because of the lower levels (x/15 vs x/25), you're also receiving more from Efficiency (and the Efficiency is higher because the trait gives more - thus even more).
Here, let me breakdown the non-Eng one that I did.
This is the base (just the +10 Wep/+5 Eng Warbird bonuses):
Can't answer average by any means. Can only tell you what my single 50 Sci in his Ha'nom would sport. He's the only guy I bothered leveling up to 50 after the wipe. I'll add in the Borg and 0Point to what he's got. He's got 6 Engine/Shield/Efficiency/Potential, 3 Aux/Wep, Efficient/Theorist, the Nukara Engines provide various boosts to Shield Power, and the Nukara console gives a bonus to shields.
(Lots of numbers bla bla bla)
For attack it looks decent, and not too shabby. It too doesnt deviate that much from fed and klink ships either, in terms of power allocation. Besides, the singularity powers i find more attractive and useful then the extra 40 power.
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Toss in another 25-26 to account for Leech + Engi EPtX trait, and you're sitting even prettier. Potential also exists for Adapted MACO / KHG 2 piece which would add in another what, about 10 aux or so?
Looking at the numbers posted from the total math buildup, I must say that squecky warbird is looking really mean... but thats on paper... yet to be seen in practice how it works.
Heck, my fleet retro Mogai is going to be terrifying with a tactical captain.
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Have to keep in mind that the Chel Grett in my example was on Holo, not on Tribble.
On Tribble, with say a Field Stabilizing Injection [W->S]...it would have:
125(161)/100
119/50
65/25
57/25
vs. the Warbird
125(161)/100
109/30
57/15
49/15
The Warbird loses...
10 Shield
8 Engine
8 Auxiliary
It's -28 power compared to the non-Warbird.
edit: Keep in mind that's 5 pip'd. It would be -20 shield when you use a Singularity Ability, dropping you to -38 power compared to the non-Warbird.
edit: But you have to keep in mind how shield damage reduction works - you're not actually losing the the resistance from the loss of 20 shield power unless you've got no other resistances running.
To put that power change into perspective, it's a 2.8% or 5.6% shield resist difference. With appropriate buff selection (perhaps going for an EPtSII instead of a I for example), that difference can very easily be completely overcome.
On paper at least, the power difference isn't the apocalyptic issue that alot of folks are making it out to be.
Have to keep in mind that the Chel Grett in my example was on Holo, not on Tribble.
On Tribble, with say a Field Stabilizing Injection [W->S]...it would have:
125(161)/100
119/50
65/25
57/25
vs. the Warbird
125(161)/100
109/30
57/15
49/15
The Warbird loses...
10 Shield
8 Engine
8 Auxiliary
It's -28 power compared to the non-Warbird.
And that is pretty much it. The higher the value of the power settings is at base, the less you gain from it when you start adding in bonuses and flat rate extras (Due to how Cryptics maths are based on diminshing returns). So starting out low isnt so bad, because proportionate when consoles and skills are added in, the closer both ships will come to an equal setting at high values/end game. So warbirds have more to gain from it in the long run then fed/klink ships.
So in essence im not suprised to see that the power isnt that much off in comparison. Besides, im not going to cry over ~30 less power to distribute when i have singularity powers and can battle cloak.
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Materials
- Romulan Fleet ships do not seem to have a different fleet material going for them, contrary to Fed and KDF ships.
- The T'varo light warbird refit/retrofit unfortunately lacks in quality compared to other refits - it has a GREAT base model, but her textures are in general unflattering. Aged Romulan is faded, Romulan 1 is grainy-looking when it reflects light, and under certain lightning Romulan 2 doesn't look like clever alien panneling so much as craggly fissures running over the ship. It would be ideal if a material equal in quality to the other refits would be available and show off winsome details such as curving wing-like panneling similar to this; a corresponding pattern to give us the option of seeing a modern-looking Repulan Republic-inspired bird-of-prey on its underside (like so) would be very welcome.
- The T'varo light warbird also lacks a second set of windows and is completely devoid of escape pods. The two rear torpedo launchers under the impulse engine are -barely- noticeable.
- The T'varo's impulse engine is a single unit, whereas in the show it's been shown as a double-set of thrusters (see the bottom-most picture here for an aft view showing the impulse engines). An hopefully easy way of fixing that would be to take the bottom vertices of the fin and lower them so that the fin would 'cut' the impulse thruster in half.
i had a feeling the energy levels weren't going to be as big of a deal at level cap.
I can see it being a bit of a pain in the Subcommander/Commander level bracket though, before players have access to all the power boosting skills and gear.
I would still like to see a Veteran hull material.
Also, I dunno if anyone knows, but I'll ask... when buying a lower tier C-store variant (such as the Valdore or the D'Ridthau) will it unlock the costume to use on the VA Retrofit standard models?
VADM William "Darkshadow" Shadow | Join Date: Apr 2009 | USS Immortal NX-93608-F (Oddyssey Tactical Cruiser) VADM RogueshadowIRW Kirino Kosaka (Valdore Retrofit) LT General MorboIKS Karac (Bortasqu War Cruiser) LT General PosuIKS Saya Takagi (Chel Grett Warship)
Also, I dunno if anyone knows, but I'll ask... when buying a lower tier C-store variant (such as the Valdore or the D'Ridthau) will it unlock the costume to use on the VA Retrofit standard models?
I would still like to see a Veteran hull material.
Also, I dunno if anyone knows, but I'll ask... when buying a lower tier C-store variant (such as the Valdore or the D'Ridthau) will it unlock the costume to use on the VA Retrofit standard models?
Veteran hull material is confirmed, just not for launch.
Same with all veteran costumes and the 1000/day ship. All coming later.
It is starting to seem more and more that EVENTUALLY power levels won't be an issue, but until you get to pretty much level 50 and unlock tons of gear your not going to be in the best shape.
Though all that math was done as an eng captain and i'm currently still planning on playing tac. though i guess i may change that.
Because of the lower levels (x/15 vs x/25), you're also receiving more from Efficiency (and the Efficiency is higher because the trait gives more - thus even more).
You were doing well until this.
Efficiency is based on where the power level is SET. 15/25 = 25/25 as far as the skill is concerned.
Comments
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
...they'd have a different view on the Singularity Abilities.
What are the "expectations" from Cryptic on what folks power levels should be with the 40 base? Is it based on them having a certain investment in skill points/traits/gear...or...is it just base?
Very true, the larger, slower ships do have a problem turning, but they make up for it in durability and well, have you ever hit someone with 6-8 beam weapons at the same time? massive drain on weapon power but still epic
As for the ships, I feel that the weapons slots may be a bit unbalanced for my style of play, but i guess the figuring out how to properly layout a new ship is half the fun. (by unbalanced i mean that i don't like the layout of the weapon slots, my opinion and not binding for everyone) still I love the gameplay and content, great job guys!
A Warp Core can go higher than a Singularity Core. Singularity Cores are still subject to the 125 cap while the Warp Core can 130 in a single subsystem (Shields, Engines, Auxiliary)...
...the Weapon Overcapping thing I've never seen officially addressed, so I'm not sure what Cryptic's view on that - though, you should be able to go higher by a small amount with the Warp Core.
As to how high you can get a certain number of subsystems though - going to depend on skill build, ship, gear, eh?
So, on average at end game, what are power allocation for weps, shield, eng, and aux going to be like?
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Chel Grett on Holo
125(161)/100
104/50
64/25
50/25
Warbird on Tribble
125(171)/100
119/30
67/15
54/15
Even without the 5 pip for Shields, he'd still come out ahead on Tribble compared to Holo...while picking up those Singularity Abilities.
If he weren't an Eng though?
125(161)/100
109/30...99/30 without the 5 pip.
57/15
44/15
+5 or -5 Shields
-7 Engine
-6 Auxiliary
edit: Forgot the pesky +30 vs. +15 between Trib and Holo again.
The mogai the set bonus seems to be Tactical, while it very much is engineering type buff like Nadion Inversion. But the consoles themselves are very much science, as they deal with draining shields and using the ship's particle generators. With out a good amount of science consoles these abilities will not function quite as well.
The lack of consistency in the stats vs the consoles vs the console sets seems a bit confusing on what you want these ships to be.
I'm sorry but this dosn't make any sense. how are you getting +10 to weapons, +15 to shields, +5 to engines and +4 to aux with the -40 power?
the Chel Grett has 40 more base power than the warbird yet has less power levels?
and even the 125/109/57/44? how? i must be really missing something because this math makes no sense to me.
Can't answer average by any means. Can only tell you what my single 50 Sci in his Ha'nom would sport. He's the only guy I bothered leveling up to 50 after the wipe. I'll add in the Borg and 0Point to what he's got. He's got 6 Engine/Shield/Efficiency/Potential, 3 Aux/Wep, Efficient/Theorist, the Nukara Engines provide various boosts to Shield Power, and the Nukara console gives a bonus to shields.
Here's his subsystem preset levels based on the above (not using any EPtX abilities)...
Attack
116/100
69/30
47/15
54/15
Defense (adjusting shields down 5/wep up 5 to avoid shield overcap)
60/35
124/95
47/15
54/15
Speed
44/15
57/15
119/100
66/30
Balanced
64/40
76/40
67/40
74/40
EPS Manifold gives +10 power to all each time you use EPtX. Cycling EPtX/EPtY means full uptime on the additional +10 power. That's not available on Holo - it's a new Eng trait on Tribble.
5 pips of Singularity power with an Injection Singularity Core provides +15 Eng Power.
Efficient Captain on Holo provides +15 Efficiency. It's +30 on Tribble.
The Nukara console (not available on Holo) provides +5 Shield power.
Because of the lower levels (x/15 vs x/25), you're also receiving more from Efficiency (and the Efficiency is higher because the trait gives more - thus even more).
Here, let me breakdown the non-Eng one that I did.
This is the base (just the +10 Wep/+5 Eng Warbird bonuses):
110/100
30/30
20/15
15/15
Add Efficient Captain:
110/100
32/30
23/15
18/15
Add Warp Theorist:
110/100
33/30
23/15
18/15
Add 6 Warp Core Efficiency:
110/100
40/30
33/15
28/15
Add 6 Warp Core Potential:
114/100
44/30
37/15
32/15
Add 6 Engine Performance:
114/100
44/30
45/15
32/15
Add 6 Shield Performance:
114/100
52/30
45/15
32/15
Add 3 Aux Performance:
114/100
52/30
45/15
37/15
Add 3 Weapon Performance:
120/100
52/30
45/15
37/15
Add MACO Shield 5-stack:
125(130)/100
62/30
55/15
47/15
Add 5pip Singularity Shield Core:
125(130)/100
77/30
55/15
47/15
Add Borg Module:
125(135)/100
77/30
55/15
47/15
Add 0Point:
125(136)/100
79/30
57/15
49/15
Add EPtW1:
125(161)/100
79/30
57/15
49/15
Add EPtS1:
125(161)/100
104/30
57/15
49/15
Almost forgot the Nukara console:
125(161)/100
109/30
57/15
49/15
For attack it looks decent, and not too shabby. It too doesnt deviate that much from fed and klink ships either, in terms of power allocation. Besides, the singularity powers i find more attractive and useful then the extra 40 power.
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Heck, my fleet retro Mogai is going to be terrifying with a tactical captain.
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
On Tribble, with say a Field Stabilizing Injection [W->S]...it would have:
125(161)/100
119/50
65/25
57/25
vs. the Warbird
125(161)/100
109/30
57/15
49/15
The Warbird loses...
10 Shield
8 Engine
8 Auxiliary
It's -28 power compared to the non-Warbird.
edit: Keep in mind that's 5 pip'd. It would be -20 shield when you use a Singularity Ability, dropping you to -38 power compared to the non-Warbird.
edit: But you have to keep in mind how shield damage reduction works - you're not actually losing the the resistance from the loss of 20 shield power unless you've got no other resistances running.
On paper at least, the power difference isn't the apocalyptic issue that alot of folks are making it out to be.
And that is pretty much it. The higher the value of the power settings is at base, the less you gain from it when you start adding in bonuses and flat rate extras (Due to how Cryptics maths are based on diminshing returns). So starting out low isnt so bad, because proportionate when consoles and skills are added in, the closer both ships will come to an equal setting at high values/end game. So warbirds have more to gain from it in the long run then fed/klink ships.
So in essence im not suprised to see that the power isnt that much off in comparison. Besides, im not going to cry over ~30 less power to distribute when i have singularity powers and can battle cloak.
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Yes, although I'm really looking at making a Torp'varo...the potential for the BOgai is pretty nifty too, eh?
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
The ability to do with quantums on a T'varo what I do with photons on other ships is...enticing to say the least.
Materials
- Romulan Fleet ships do not seem to have a different fleet material going for them, contrary to Fed and KDF ships.
- The T'varo light warbird refit/retrofit unfortunately lacks in quality compared to other refits - it has a GREAT base model, but her textures are in general unflattering. Aged Romulan is faded, Romulan 1 is grainy-looking when it reflects light, and under certain lightning Romulan 2 doesn't look like clever alien panneling so much as craggly fissures running over the ship. It would be ideal if a material equal in quality to the other refits would be available and show off winsome details such as curving wing-like panneling similar to this; a corresponding pattern to give us the option of seeing a modern-looking Repulan Republic-inspired bird-of-prey on its underside (like so) would be very welcome.
- The T'varo light warbird also lacks a second set of windows and is completely devoid of escape pods. The two rear torpedo launchers under the impulse engine are -barely- noticeable.
- The T'varo's impulse engine is a single unit, whereas in the show it's been shown as a double-set of thrusters (see the bottom-most picture here for an aft view showing the impulse engines). An hopefully easy way of fixing that would be to take the bottom vertices of the fin and lower them so that the fin would 'cut' the impulse thruster in half.
I can see it being a bit of a pain in the Subcommander/Commander level bracket though, before players have access to all the power boosting skills and gear.
That's a SA ship though... I know it's probably nitpicking, but Sci captains don't really have an option as to what to do with their VA tokens.
USS Immortal NX-93608-F (Oddyssey Tactical Cruiser)
VADM Rogueshadow IRW Kirino Kosaka (Valdore Retrofit)
LT General Morbo IKS Karac (Bortasqu War Cruiser)
LT General Posu IKS Saya Takagi (Chel Grett Warship)
Also, I dunno if anyone knows, but I'll ask... when buying a lower tier C-store variant (such as the Valdore or the D'Ridthau) will it unlock the costume to use on the VA Retrofit standard models?
USS Immortal NX-93608-F (Oddyssey Tactical Cruiser)
VADM Rogueshadow IRW Kirino Kosaka (Valdore Retrofit)
LT General Morbo IKS Karac (Bortasqu War Cruiser)
LT General Posu IKS Saya Takagi (Chel Grett Warship)
In a word: yes.
Thank you much.
USS Immortal NX-93608-F (Oddyssey Tactical Cruiser)
VADM Rogueshadow IRW Kirino Kosaka (Valdore Retrofit)
LT General Morbo IKS Karac (Bortasqu War Cruiser)
LT General Posu IKS Saya Takagi (Chel Grett Warship)
Veteran hull material is confirmed, just not for launch.
Same with all veteran costumes and the 1000/day ship. All coming later.
It is starting to seem more and more that EVENTUALLY power levels won't be an issue, but until you get to pretty much level 50 and unlock tons of gear your not going to be in the best shape.
Though all that math was done as an eng captain and i'm currently still planning on playing tac. though i guess i may change that.
You were doing well until this.
Efficiency is based on where the power level is SET. 15/25 = 25/25 as far as the skill is concerned.