Hey Devs I can post the blues of a war core and sig core side by side. It would be better if you can post up an example of what a purple Sig/warp core will be.
make note thats a new character in the 2nd ship lower skill and all. but yea dont try to reverse fight in these buggers ever fedscorts can get away with it a bit but we wont ;-)
I'm not sure if this someone has already thought of this already. But since the singularity cores go offline after a power is used, why not enforce the across the board energy drain then? Players that use the powers will face the power drain along with losing the single subsystem bonus for as long as the singularity core is offline. Then developers could tweak the duration and possibly the magnitude of the drain to balance the powers. So as long as you DON'T use the powers you won't see the drain and the players that DO use them will be penalized accordingly. I'm not sure how to balance the 'battle cloak' though. Maybe a smaller -5 across the board drain. Or even a drain to a single subsystem.
stealing power isnt the solution to the "balance problem"
the abilities are only useful in such specific cases it hurts to think about it....but they will ignor all feedback as they usualy do i doubt we will see a dev response to our pleas here.
but if one does happen along please explain your thoughts on why drain power from the romulans
explain what exactly the warp cores get list their effects side by side with that of the antimatter cores.
please enlighten us to things that make you tick so we can more thoroughly discuss this.
P.S.
the abilities in their current form are nothing spectacular and we pay for them with cores that don't do the following
A>W,+5maximum powerlevel,+5powerlevel
isntead we get things that buff these abilities and if we wait 2minuts buff 1 powerlevel
is that not balanced in its own right?
and yes the cloak must have a balancing factor -5power fine thats acceptable
Yeah... I was comparing some characters on live to my Romulan. Just looking at weapons power. Thrown every point and skill at it and never budged beyond 118. I think on live I hit 125 without any gear based buffs.
And like you my concern was power draining skills. Better up the points spent on protection from that
Don't forget that unlike fed and kdf escort the romulan "escort" only have a +10 bonus to weapons power.
A mogai is actually 15 point behind a raptor as far as weapon power goes, that's a lot of catching up to do
Right now the only singularity power worth using is the quantum shield, and paying a -40 power penalty for a heal on a 2 minutes cooldown isn't worth it.
The cold hard truth about warbird is that without the plasmonic leech console, the warbird aren't "different" . They are inferior, period.
"singularity cores focus on science-based stats and modifying a Warbird-class ship?s" .... well that is not correct.
With two VA Romulans under my belt and a a blue sig core now on my ship I don't think the W-cores and S-cores are equal. Currently the W-cores are stupid good and we will see a huge boost to Fed and KDF ships.
I think it is time to remove the -40 power from Romulan ships and if not now give it a month post the LoR release and people will oh TRIBBLE this needs to be fix the W-cores are very OP.
Given that the Fed already has more/better power bonuses from their cores, they might want to crank the Romulan power deficit back to -5 in each subsystem.
This is my two cents based on my play experience with the Rommies so far. Even with the loss of power to each subsystem, Romulan ships are still very effective in combat. Yes, you do have to be more aware of your power levels when playing, and when setting up your build, but thats fine. Adapt and overcome. Do things differently than you do with your fed and kdf characters. Use less skills that depend on power. Maybe balance your power differently. Put some power from engines into other systems, and use that cloak when you really need to add turn or defense. I think thats part of the intent. However, while I dont think base 40 power is too steep of a penalty, I do agree that the benefits in exchange for that penalty need some work. Only the heal and overcharge seem to have any use, except maybe for plasma shockwave at low levels when dealing with fighters. These powers need to be looked at again, and something needs to be done to make them more appealing. as it is now, my singularity powers spend a lot of time flashing, fully charged, with the heal on standby as an emergency button, just in case. I do feel that raising the power bonus of a subsystem given by the singularity to 15 is much more in line with what was originally intended, because now its enough where I do weigh the costs of losing all that power versus the use of the ability.
tl;dr- Long story short, I think the power penalty is fine IF all the powers of the singularity core felt viable. Unfortunately only 2 do, and even then, 1 is far more useful than the other. But over all this system is on the right track.
theres a couple reason i respectfully disagree veepnova one of those being the power makes the science ship a complete and utter waste of time and 2 while the romulans are paying power away the klingons and federation are gaining about 10-20 power themselves... this puts romulan ships at a 50-60 power loss comparatively(rough guestimates on the power gain its somewhere in that ball park)
The plasma shockwave is great. The only major issue with it is that it doesn't scale very well.
At the start, the blast can kill enemies. Midway through leveling the blast is only decent damage, but you can count on your enemies burning to death or near death. As you reach the end game it's not quite as hot. Now I don't think it should be an instadeath button, but for the long cooldown imposed and the power hit, I think it should still be dangerous at late game. Conversely, at early game, it needs toned down a lot.
I haven't had too many problems with warp shadow, though maybe it should give us a bit of a threat debuff. I didn't look too closeley but does it still not show our full name on the shadows? if not, then it is still useless for PvP.
Now, I do like the power bonus cores get for singularity charge. It's a good bonus, and does take some of the edge off the power bonus, and it less situational than the abilities. it's also nice to essentially dial a bonus, for instance, I use the aux boosting cores on more the science hybrid ships to give them an aux bonus like true science ships have. The bigger issue, I think, is not just the -10 power per system, it's that M/AM cores also give those synergy bonuses as well as half of the engineering bonuses being power related on top for the efficiency bonus to a system based on a core. This raises the power gap a bit. on top of that, the recent dev blog says the battery power of singularity cores burn our charge. While that sounds like a good use for the charge (basically a 6th singularity ability), it also means we are trading our continuous power bonus from that charge for a temporary spike. Feds and KDF have no such tradeoff in the battery affix as far as I am aware (testing has been difficult since cores don't drop much and dil store only goes to blue)
Again, though, I recomend we be able to choose what strenght we fire our singularoty powers at and only discharge part of the power. it should but the charging on a cooldown, but we'd still have some charge to fire something else or otherwise reap some power bonus, for when we only need a small shockwave for clearing fighters or a little bit of a tanking or damage buff despite being fully charged.
stealing power isnt the solution to the "balance problem"
the abilities are only useful in such specific cases it hurts to think about it....but they will ignor all feedback as they usualy do i doubt we will see a dev response to our pleas here.
but if one does happen along please explain your thoughts on why drain power from the romulans
explain what exactly the warp cores get list their effects side by side with that of the antimatter cores.
please enlighten us to things that make you tick so we can more thoroughly discuss this.
P.S.
the abilities in their current form are nothing spectacular and we pay for them with cores that don't do the following
A>W,+5maximum powerlevel,+5powerlevel
isntead we get things that buff these abilities and if we wait 2minuts buff 1 powerlevel
is that not balanced in its own right?
and yes the cloak must have a balancing factor -5power fine thats acceptable
Sorry, it didn't word my statement properly. What I meant to say is while the powers were in cool down (currently about 2 minutes) you could enforce the drain then so you won't be stuck with the drain all of the time.
stealing power isnt the solution to the "balance problem"
the abilities are only useful in such specific cases it hurts to think about it....but they will ignor all feedback as they usualy do i doubt we will see a dev response to our pleas here.
but if one does happen along please explain your thoughts on why drain power from the romulans
explain what exactly the warp cores get list their effects side by side with that of the antimatter cores.
please enlighten us to things that make you tick so we can more thoroughly discuss this.
P.S.
the abilities in their current form are nothing spectacular and we pay for them with cores that don't do the following
A>W,+5maximum powerlevel,+5powerlevel
isntead we get things that buff these abilities and if we wait 2minuts buff 1 powerlevel
is that not balanced in its own right?
and yes the cloak must have a balancing factor -5power fine thats acceptable
Battle Cloak is balanced before the power drain as most of the Romulan ships have a slower turn rate to the counterparts. Just a friendly reminder we are kicked where it hurts out of fear but he warp cores are already the balance combines that we get no power when our core is offline. Plus the powers are fun but only minor at best.
I played for more then two hours then got kicked out on Saturday, when I tried to get back in I was given a ticket. Evidently there were too many people playing, being a gold member I thought I would have first pick. anyway, I waiting a long time, but was never allowed back in.
would be nice in the current fail system if romulans could allow systems down to 15 so we could max a subsystem and toss 30 in anouther for now until you guys look further into the balance.
that way we could be competative in atleast 1 area otherwise at the max 85 no romulans going to outrun anyone if they have to run nor catch someone who is running with full engine power
What I'd like to see is Green Singularity Cores grant one random ability blues two and purples 3. Increase the power to 45 across all systems . That'd make me happy without making them to over powered as we'd only have 3 abilities to choose from assuming we have a purple core.
Meh, changing when that -10 was applied...kind of a world of difference there.
Prior to the patch:
100/100
70/50
43/25
50/25
The -10 per subsystem was actually applied after you allotted your power levels. You see the familiar 100/50/25/25 that we see on Fed/KDF ships. Say you had no skills/gear that boosted, you could set the balanced mode on your typical Warbird (+10 Wep, +5 Eng) and see the following:
50/50
40/50
45/50
40/50
The -10 is being allotted from the start to the base numbers. The same balanced thing from above gives you:
50/40
40/40
45/40
40/40
Which on one hand looks pretty much the same. Okay, so let's recreate that first thing I had up there...
100/100
70/50
43/25
50/25
...with the new way the -10 is being applied and we get...
95/85
63/25
53/25
60/25
And that gets into...hrmmmm territory.
Gets better though. Yep, gets better. So I hit the Attack preset instead of trying to adjust from Balanced.
110/100
67/30
45/15
52/15
Well, I can lock Engine and Aux and drop the Weapons down to 95 to give me:
105/95
70/35
45/15
52/15
Hey, that looks better than what I had before the changes, right?
+5 Wep
Same Shield
+2 Eng
+2 Aux
These are the relevant skills for the character (including bonuses from traits/gear):
The ship itself (Ha'nom in this case) gives +15 Aux (so I picked a D'Kyr for the spreadsheet).
...with a +5 Engine Warp Core as well, we can look at some things to see what the actual power cost is.
Will compare the Ha'nom to the D'Kyr - since they're both +15 Aux vessels.
Let's start with the Balanced setting, eh? First, a note about the Nukara Engine. @40 it gives +3.5 but @50 it only gives +2.5...
D'Kyr Balanced
65/50
80/50
73/50
80/50
Ha'nom Balanced
57/40
74/40
65/40
72/40
So as you can see there, it's not actually a loss of 10 power for each subsystem. It's -8 for Wep, Eng, Aux, and -6 for Shield. Don't forget the boost from the Engines for the Shield power in this.
How about for other settings?
D'Kyr Attack
110/100
80/50
53/25
60/25
Ha'nom Attack
110/100
67/30
45/15
52/15
@30, the Engine gives +4.5 Shield. But what do we see here? There's no loss for Wep. Shield on the other hand is -13. Both Eng/Aux maintain the -8 as seen in balanced. We make up the loss of the -8 to Wep by losing an additional -5 Shield (instead of an additional -8). We've got the Engines boosting our Shield remember?
D'Kyr Defense
65/50
123/100
53/25
60/25
Ha'nom Defense
49/30
123/100
45/15
52/15
@100, the Engine gives +0 Shield. So what have we got then? There's no loss for Shield. However, we're losing -16 Wep. Yep, we're eating the -8 for Wep and -8 for Shields. Eng/Aux are still just at their respective -8.
D'Kyr Speed
45/25
63/25
118/100
80/50
Ha'nom Speed
37/15
56/15
118/100
64/30
@25, it's +5 Shield. @15, it's +6 Shield. No loss for Speed (as seen with Attack/Defense and Wep/Shield). Wep is the standard -8. Shield is only -7 (don't forget the additional +1 because of the Engines @15). Aux though, eats the -16 here to make up for the -8 not lost by Eng.
So with those particular skills/gear and with the presets, we see that the 100 is the same whether it's a Warp Core or a Singularity Core. The 15 settings are -8. The 30 settings on the other hand will depend on gear. If the gear's boosting that 30, then there's less of a drop. However, if the gear's not boosting it - then there's a -16 hit which makes up for the -8 not being felt at the 100 level.
But of course, that's all dependent on if they keep those Attack/Defense/Speed presets and what one can fudge with them as I mentioned in the other post. What if they change those to reflect what the Balance setting does with those min 25s in all instead of min 15s in two?
Let's look at that too, eh? We've already got the D'Kyr numbers - so I'll just show the Ha'nom numbers trying to match the D'Kyr numbers below.
Balanced to Attack (Ha'nom)
95/85 (-15 vs. D'Kyr)
63/25 (-17 vs. D'Kyr)
53/25 (Same as D'Kyr)
60/25 (Same as D'Kyr)
Yeah...uh...no, that's just bad.
Balanced to Defense (Ha'nom)
45/25 (-20 vs. D'Kyr)
108/85 (-15 vs. D'Kyr)
53/25 (Same as D'Kyr)
60/25 (Same as D'Kyr)
Yeah...uh...no, that's just bad.
Balanced to Speed (Ha'nom)
45/25 (Same as D'Kyr)
63/25 (Same as D'Kyr)
103/85 (-15 vs. D'Kyr)
60/25 (-20 vs. D'Kyr)
Yeah...uh...no, that's just bad.
So a quick review of the power difference totals for this particular build:
D'Kyr Balanced vs. Ha'nom Balanced: -30 power
D'Kyr Attack vs. Ha'nom Attack: -29 power
D'Kyr Defense vs. Ha'nom Defense: -32 power
D'Kyr Speed vs. Ha'nom Speed: -31 power
D'Kyr Attack vs. Ha'nom Balanced to Attack: -32 power
D'Kyr Defense vs. Ha'nom Balanced to Defense: -35 power
D'Kyr Speed vs. Ha'nom Balanced to Speed: -35 power
So yeah, none of them experience the -40 power...but there's a larger power loss with the Balanced to Attack/Defense/Speed than the Presets (who knows if they're staying that way)...and there's no matching the highs with the Balanced to Attack/Defense/Speed like one does with the Presets.
Yeah, I'm wondering what kind of testing Cryptic is doing and what they're looking at with some of these changes...
There are some odd things going on here with adjusting power levels...in a Ha'feh, I got my settings to where my base engine power was zero (Only had the green bonus energy.) Needless to say, that didn't work well.
Later, I couldn't get anything below 25, which left me with a base of only 85 in weapons; also not good.
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There are some odd things going on here with adjusting power levels...in a Ha'feh, I got my settings to where my base engine power was zero (Only had the green bonus energy.) Needless to say, that didn't work well.
Later, I couldn't get anything below 25, which left me with a base of only 85 in weapons; also not good.
Heh, yeah - had the zero only green with saved presets.
But starting from 'balanced', I should be able to move them down to a base of 15, I thought. That wasn't working - which hurts, because I lose weapon power and don't benefit from efficiency as much as I should.
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But starting from 'balanced', I should be able to move them down to a base of 15, I thought. That wasn't working - which hurts, because I lose weapon power and don't benefit from efficiency as much as I should.
I posted this in another thread, but I wanted to add the feedback to this thread as well:
Thank you for taking the time and doing all this research. glad to see it shows just how bad the situation is.
I really do feel that come post launch romulans are going to be moved to -20 again when you have 10,000 va's realizing that they can't be anywhere near as effective as other ships.
Comments
the only pvp builds i see working are the tactical alpha builds such boring concept for what was supposed to be science heavy race....
also do i realy have to explain this http://i.imgur.com/KYQw8Mc.png
reversing all your power away lol
Oh god ....
the abilities are only useful in such specific cases it hurts to think about it....but they will ignor all feedback as they usualy do i doubt we will see a dev response to our pleas here.
but if one does happen along please explain your thoughts on why drain power from the romulans
explain what exactly the warp cores get list their effects side by side with that of the antimatter cores.
please enlighten us to things that make you tick so we can more thoroughly discuss this.
P.S.
the abilities in their current form are nothing spectacular and we pay for them with cores that don't do the following
A>W,+5maximum powerlevel,+5powerlevel
isntead we get things that buff these abilities and if we wait 2minuts buff 1 powerlevel
is that not balanced in its own right?
and yes the cloak must have a balancing factor -5power fine thats acceptable
Don't forget that unlike fed and kdf escort the romulan "escort" only have a +10 bonus to weapons power.
A mogai is actually 15 point behind a raptor as far as weapon power goes, that's a lot of catching up to do
Right now the only singularity power worth using is the quantum shield, and paying a -40 power penalty for a heal on a 2 minutes cooldown isn't worth it.
The cold hard truth about warbird is that without the plasmonic leech console, the warbird aren't "different" . They are inferior, period.
tl;dr- Long story short, I think the power penalty is fine IF all the powers of the singularity core felt viable. Unfortunately only 2 do, and even then, 1 is far more useful than the other. But over all this system is on the right track.
At the start, the blast can kill enemies. Midway through leveling the blast is only decent damage, but you can count on your enemies burning to death or near death. As you reach the end game it's not quite as hot. Now I don't think it should be an instadeath button, but for the long cooldown imposed and the power hit, I think it should still be dangerous at late game. Conversely, at early game, it needs toned down a lot.
I haven't had too many problems with warp shadow, though maybe it should give us a bit of a threat debuff. I didn't look too closeley but does it still not show our full name on the shadows? if not, then it is still useless for PvP.
Now, I do like the power bonus cores get for singularity charge. It's a good bonus, and does take some of the edge off the power bonus, and it less situational than the abilities. it's also nice to essentially dial a bonus, for instance, I use the aux boosting cores on more the science hybrid ships to give them an aux bonus like true science ships have. The bigger issue, I think, is not just the -10 power per system, it's that M/AM cores also give those synergy bonuses as well as half of the engineering bonuses being power related on top for the efficiency bonus to a system based on a core. This raises the power gap a bit. on top of that, the recent dev blog says the battery power of singularity cores burn our charge. While that sounds like a good use for the charge (basically a 6th singularity ability), it also means we are trading our continuous power bonus from that charge for a temporary spike. Feds and KDF have no such tradeoff in the battery affix as far as I am aware (testing has been difficult since cores don't drop much and dil store only goes to blue)
Again, though, I recomend we be able to choose what strenght we fire our singularoty powers at and only discharge part of the power. it should but the charging on a cooldown, but we'd still have some charge to fire something else or otherwise reap some power bonus, for when we only need a small shockwave for clearing fighters or a little bit of a tanking or damage buff despite being fully charged.
Sorry, it didn't word my statement properly. What I meant to say is while the powers were in cool down (currently about 2 minutes) you could enforce the drain then so you won't be stuck with the drain all of the time.
I like them so far.
Formerly Christopher_Chase
I've been here since Open Beta
Battle Cloak is balanced before the power drain as most of the Romulan ships have a slower turn rate to the counterparts. Just a friendly reminder we are kicked where it hurts out of fear but he warp cores are already the balance combines that we get no power when our core is offline. Plus the powers are fun but only minor at best.
that way we could be competative in atleast 1 area otherwise at the max 85 no romulans going to outrun anyone if they have to run nor catch someone who is running with full engine power
wont be able to do science well or damage.
Using this same info...
...with a +5 Engine Warp Core as well, we can look at some things to see what the actual power cost is.
Will compare the Ha'nom to the D'Kyr - since they're both +15 Aux vessels.
Let's start with the Balanced setting, eh? First, a note about the Nukara Engine. @40 it gives +3.5 but @50 it only gives +2.5...
D'Kyr Balanced
65/50
80/50
73/50
80/50
Ha'nom Balanced
57/40
74/40
65/40
72/40
So as you can see there, it's not actually a loss of 10 power for each subsystem. It's -8 for Wep, Eng, Aux, and -6 for Shield. Don't forget the boost from the Engines for the Shield power in this.
How about for other settings?
D'Kyr Attack
110/100
80/50
53/25
60/25
Ha'nom Attack
110/100
67/30
45/15
52/15
@30, the Engine gives +4.5 Shield. But what do we see here? There's no loss for Wep. Shield on the other hand is -13. Both Eng/Aux maintain the -8 as seen in balanced. We make up the loss of the -8 to Wep by losing an additional -5 Shield (instead of an additional -8). We've got the Engines boosting our Shield remember?
D'Kyr Defense
65/50
123/100
53/25
60/25
Ha'nom Defense
49/30
123/100
45/15
52/15
@100, the Engine gives +0 Shield. So what have we got then? There's no loss for Shield. However, we're losing -16 Wep. Yep, we're eating the -8 for Wep and -8 for Shields. Eng/Aux are still just at their respective -8.
D'Kyr Speed
45/25
63/25
118/100
80/50
Ha'nom Speed
37/15
56/15
118/100
64/30
@25, it's +5 Shield. @15, it's +6 Shield. No loss for Speed (as seen with Attack/Defense and Wep/Shield). Wep is the standard -8. Shield is only -7 (don't forget the additional +1 because of the Engines @15). Aux though, eats the -16 here to make up for the -8 not lost by Eng.
So with those particular skills/gear and with the presets, we see that the 100 is the same whether it's a Warp Core or a Singularity Core. The 15 settings are -8. The 30 settings on the other hand will depend on gear. If the gear's boosting that 30, then there's less of a drop. However, if the gear's not boosting it - then there's a -16 hit which makes up for the -8 not being felt at the 100 level.
But of course, that's all dependent on if they keep those Attack/Defense/Speed presets and what one can fudge with them as I mentioned in the other post. What if they change those to reflect what the Balance setting does with those min 25s in all instead of min 15s in two?
Let's look at that too, eh? We've already got the D'Kyr numbers - so I'll just show the Ha'nom numbers trying to match the D'Kyr numbers below.
Balanced to Attack (Ha'nom)
95/85 (-15 vs. D'Kyr)
63/25 (-17 vs. D'Kyr)
53/25 (Same as D'Kyr)
60/25 (Same as D'Kyr)
Yeah...uh...no, that's just bad.
Balanced to Defense (Ha'nom)
45/25 (-20 vs. D'Kyr)
108/85 (-15 vs. D'Kyr)
53/25 (Same as D'Kyr)
60/25 (Same as D'Kyr)
Yeah...uh...no, that's just bad.
Balanced to Speed (Ha'nom)
45/25 (Same as D'Kyr)
63/25 (Same as D'Kyr)
103/85 (-15 vs. D'Kyr)
60/25 (-20 vs. D'Kyr)
Yeah...uh...no, that's just bad.
So a quick review of the power difference totals for this particular build:
D'Kyr Balanced vs. Ha'nom Balanced: -30 power
D'Kyr Attack vs. Ha'nom Attack: -29 power
D'Kyr Defense vs. Ha'nom Defense: -32 power
D'Kyr Speed vs. Ha'nom Speed: -31 power
D'Kyr Attack vs. Ha'nom Balanced to Attack: -32 power
D'Kyr Defense vs. Ha'nom Balanced to Defense: -35 power
D'Kyr Speed vs. Ha'nom Balanced to Speed: -35 power
So yeah, none of them experience the -40 power...but there's a larger power loss with the Balanced to Attack/Defense/Speed than the Presets (who knows if they're staying that way)...and there's no matching the highs with the Balanced to Attack/Defense/Speed like one does with the Presets.
Yeah, I'm wondering what kind of testing Cryptic is doing and what they're looking at with some of these changes...
Later, I couldn't get anything below 25, which left me with a base of only 85 in weapons; also not good.
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Heh, yeah - had the zero only green with saved presets.
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I discussed that in my two TLDR posts...
Thank you for taking the time and doing all this research. glad to see it shows just how bad the situation is.
I really do feel that come post launch romulans are going to be moved to -20 again when you have 10,000 va's realizing that they can't be anywhere near as effective as other ships.
Look that the ferengi set, temporal set and Jem?Hadar sets. They all have a ?if used on X ship? extra bonus.
WHAT IF! The Romulan and Reman sets also had that if all three parts are equipped on a warbird that they receive a +10 to all subsystems.
BAM! Fixed and fluffy(if your nerd hobby uses that term) aka ?fits with lore?
Just a fun idea that might solve the issue not perfect but heck I would use it.