But changing a power from being able to do this to not being able to do this doesn'T necessarily fix things. There was a reason why it was deemed mandatory.
These two sentences explain much of the problem in a very concise manner. Thank you.
jheinig was on opvp mentioning talking to system guys at lunch and him hearing that the EPt change is part of a larger set of changes we haven't seen yet. thats right, be worried, be much more worried. i mean at this point they could fix it still, undo the silly gaps. more changes? thats more permanent damage.
Are there any indications of what these changes ARE? And, what the rationale actually is? And will we be seeing the rest of these when LoR launches?
I have a dreaded vision of these half-done changes rotting for 3-6 months, which may be worse than a bunch of bad, but complete, changes going in.
Honestly, for ships running 2 copies of EPtS, a 5 second window isn't very large, and there are plenty of ways to survive. If that 5 seconds is still unacceptable to you, 1-2 Damage Control Engineers will do a fair job of removing it entirely.
All this change seems to do is completely uncouple using 4 EPtX abilities (2 and 2) to stagger a permanent buff. Since most escorts and science ships don't use these anyways, this really only affects cruisers.
Cruisers in PvP make fine pressure DPSers (with A2B) and dedicated healers. The dedicated healing cruisers tend not to use 4 EPtX anyways, so they won't really be affected. The A2B cruisers on the other hand will have to choose between dropping EPtA or accepting a 66% EPtS uptime.
For everyone else only using 2 copies of EPtS, while you gain a 5 second window where your resistance drops every 40 seconds, you also gain 50% more healing from EPtS! (Why, you ask?) Instead of gaining the heal twice per minute, players will gain the heal 3x per minute. There may be a small window of vulnerability, but overall healing just went up.
Again, just some more things to think about. The sky isn't falling with this change. The only people who should be frowning are A2B users and PvE cruiser pilots. Everyone else can go about their business.
Are you sure that you are talking about the current version of STO?
Yes.
I really don't want to steer the thread away from EPtX and back to ship role viability though. If you want to go 10 rounds on the subject with me, start a new thread and I will try to make time to oblidge
I really don't want to steer the thread away from EPtX and back to ship role viability though. If you want to go 10 rounds on the subject with me, start a new thread and I will try to make time to oblidge
Or you could check out one of the other threads where he goes into great detail bout how pressure dps doesn't work in this game anymore.
jheinig was on opvp mentioning talking to system guys at lunch and him hearing that the EPt change is part of a larger set of changes we haven't seen yet. thats right, be worried, be much more worried. i mean at this point they could fix it still, undo the silly gaps. more changes? thats more permanent damage.
Good grief, more changes? And they?re doing them in stages instead of one big change package? That?s crazy, how can anything be really tested then? Besides that doing constant changes is BAD for a game, even Blizz admits that.
What?s going on over there anyway? They hire more guys but instead of getting them working on content right away they're set loose on the powers and balancing? Madness.
Or you could check out one of the other threads where he goes into great detail bout how pressure dps doesn't work in this game anymore.
or u noobs can remember getting a kill isnt everything. pressure forces healing and buffs, spikers and snb support then break thru. stop looking at a mmo from a single player perspective
Good grief, more changes? And they?re doing them in stages instead of one big change package? That?s crazy, how can anything be really tested then? Besides that doing constant changes is BAD for a game, even Blizz admits that.
What?s going on over there anyway? They hire more guys but instead of getting them working on content right away they're set loose on the powers and balancing? Madness.
let the die fall as it may. cmon hard 8
the stale state of pvp needs a reboot. hold onto ur hacks
or u noobs can remember getting a kill isnt everything. pressure forces healing and buffs, spikers and snb support then break thru. stop looking at a mmo from a single player perspective
this is not an accurate description of season 7, or even season 6 really, pressure in pvp
or u noobs can remember getting a kill isnt everything. pressure forces healing and buffs, spikers and snb support then break thru. stop looking at a mmo from a single player perspective
Pressure...procs.
It stacks resistance for the ResA/ResB shields.
It procs various other heals/resistance buffs.
Pressure not only doesn't kill, pressure actually makes it harder to kill.
It stacks resistance for the ResA/ResB shields.
It procs various other heals/resistance buffs.
Pressure not only doesn't kill, pressure actually makes it harder to kill.
The twisted world of STO since last year.
Who said the only way to provide pressure was beams. ?
Beam pressure will provide the other kind of procs as well... like polaron and phaser which do setup kills.
Frankly beams do suck I agree.
Current game pressure weapons that everyone seems adverse to.
1) Turret boat
2) torp boat.
I am 100% serious as well... if your a healer you should have nothing but plasma torps or phaser turrets plinking away. (or some odd ball combo)
People are to hung up on there beams... the simple adjustment to Res A and B.... 3 plasma torps in the front with a Peng. 2 Plasma mines 2 Plasma torps in the back...and I am 100% serious about that. It will never kill anyone on its own.... but neither will beams so who cares. What it does do is force hazards and cross healing all over the place.
2-3 Cruisers rocking a bunch of phased polaron turrets... just as annoying.
Those builds do open windows... the proc heals are stupid I agree... still they can be worked around. People are just to unwilling to shelve there beams.
or u noobs can remember getting a kill isnt everything. pressure forces healing and buffs, spikers and snb support then break thru. stop looking at a mmo from a single player perspective
Who said the only way to provide pressure was beams. ?
Where did my post mention beams at all?
Those Phaser turrets you mention plinking away with their chance to offline a system - that's been adjusted and is not as effective as it once was - that's not even taking into account Subystem Repair or Human BOFFs.
What they are doing though, is stacking Phaser resistance faster - meaning any spike Phaser damage is going to be less than because of that plink, plink, plink.
Also, the way the various heal/resist procs work - it doesn't scale. The proc is the same whether the person was hit by:
Random DHC Mk XII [Acc][CrtH]x2, 5x Matching Tac Consoles Mk XII, 125 Weapon Power, TT, APA, APO, GDF, TFleet, EPtW, etc, etc, etc...on a target that's been hit by Sensor Scan, APB, Disruptor proc, tractored for Accuracy Overflow, etc, etc, etc.
...or...
Random Turret Mk I, 1 Weapon Power...against a target capped on Hull/Shield resists.
As for Plasma Torps (or those folks that like the Rom [Pla] for their non-Plasma weapons) - depending on how much damage that does, just let it run - the resist/heal that it can proc will far outweigh any damage it does.
Now, if they added scaling - it would be a different story...imho, they should add scaling. In adding the scaling though, they could avoid the potential exploit of triggering the CD on the heal/resist from the proc by basing it on a cap. If it currently does X based on a hit, then it would require Y damage being done to before it could proc. If the Z's add up, then it can proc. We'll never see that though.
I didn't intend to say you where saying beams =d pressure. Sorry bout that... it was more of a general statement... people talking about the death of pressure are almost always referring to beam boats.
Not sure on turrets... last I checked the proc rate was still one heck of a lot higher then anything else.
The phaser proc resistance... isn't all that good.
Human boffs are quite rightly about to get the nerf hammer hard, thankfully... at that point subsystem repair will go back to sucking as hard as it always has.
Honestly I suggested Phased Pols... which are pol dmg... Spikers should NEVER be running dual wepaons due to the loss of a MOD... so in general they are a safe bet to not be procking resist values..
Frankly I don't think theres much point in worrying about the RES values to much anyway... as lets be honest 1 round of fire from pretty much any ship maxes it out anyway.
Still in an idea team... The Pressure should all be one type of weapon dmg... it and the spikers should all be another. One RES A one RES B.
I'm just theory crafting here cause I haven't really been playing... but if you where going to build a pressure team around energy and not torps. (I would say torps are the better option anyway)... however.
3 Pressure ships... all Pol Phased Turrets.
2 Spike ships... 1 all energy... 1 Overload torp boat... both different weapon dmg types. To leave the Overload HY boat dmg type clean... for un resisted overloads.
I didn't intend to say you where saying beams =d pressure. Sorry bout that... it was more of a general statement... people talking about the death of pressure are almost always referring to beam boats.
Not sure on turrets... last I checked the proc rate was still one heck of a lot higher then anything else.
If you primarily go for the procs as the pressure part, then you can get the same effect at nearly minimal weapon power. And then it's not so much pressure damage as it is just pressure/annoyance - comparable to e.g. VM- or Tractor-spamming someone.
When I talk about pressure damage, I'm primarily referring to something that is done by non-escorts and that (via dealing damage) weakens the target in a way that forces it to use heals on itself and also potentially opens it up for an attack from the main dps (and this latter part is why I'm reluctant to include direct-to-hull pressure from e.g. plasma torpedo boats - if the target still has essentially full shields, most of the time it isn't really weakened in a way that makes an attack with energy weapons easy.)
Basic testing and some basic thinking results in the realization that Escorts benefit, cruisers get nerfed, and science ships pretty much stay the same with these changes. This is entirely a result of the marginalization of the value of Engineering boff station slots by the adjustments.
Or am I one of the only people who recognizes that Cruiser/EPtX builds were conceptualized by Cryptic to let these otherwise useless ships have the appearance of being competitive with escorts and science ships in PVE and PVP?
If beams are not for pressure, for what are they then ? :rolleyes: Star Trek = beams, not some stupid lousy single cannons with stupidly located hardpoints.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
Its a change that wasnt tested or checked very well that was passed out as a great thing. And now instead of hearing anything back from it we get silence. which if I remember the last few times it went like this means that what we see is what we get.
Sucks like hell, I'm not a huge fan of the escort playstyle but I already have my BO HY spiker planed for when the changes go as they are to live. Cause if those changes go as is then there is not one cruiser that doesnt have some other kind of ship that does its job better. Even shield tanking will go to a few oddball escort builds. seriously try killing an escort thats setting off EPTS3 every 20 seconds while cycling APO and APB. Its like driving main line battle tank into a paintball tournament.
Its a change that wasnt tested or checked very well that was passed out as a great thing. And now instead of hearing anything back from it we get silence. which if I remember the last few times it went like this means that what we see is what we get.
Sucks like hell, I'm not a huge fan of the escort playstyle but I already have my BO HY spiker planed for when the changes go as they are to live. Cause if those changes go as is then there is not one cruiser that doesnt have some other kind of ship that does its job better. Even shield tanking will go to a few oddball escort builds. seriously try killing an escort thats setting off EPTS3 every 20 seconds while cycling APO and APB. Its like driving main line battle tank into a paintball tournament.
Its on tribble right now... go test it.
If you have feedback leave it in the tribble section.
Bort has stated he is still looking it over.
Some of use believe its overall a good idea... many don't.
Add your 2 cents in the tribble feedback section after you go test it out.
It should be noted that cryptic could have its cake and eat it too if they just reduced the different EPtX gcd to 10 seconds instead of 15. The 5 second gap would remain every 40 seconds (which is minor), and the abilities could stagger again.
I can't see how anyone could like the current version. I mean, I kind of like it as a 2x EPtS (with 2-piece MACO) user, but despite the fact that I've gotten a buff I can see how it degrades balance.
the only way you could think this change is ok is if your not an experienced enough escort pilot to know how easy it will be to exploit, and your not an experienced enough cruiser pilot to know that you cant even half mitigate the 10 second hole you now have. if you dispute this, your proboly to inexperienced to know your inexperienced.
just use EPtS? now you have more low level eng skills then you can use on most ships, you can only use EPtS1 on our cruiser, and your total energy pool levels you ran before are more then 20 less then they used to be, critically effecting healing or damage output.
meanwhile EPtE is better then APO movement all the time for an escort, making it easier for them to mitigate 10 second holes. the EPtW change favors spike instead of cruiser pressure damage because the cruisers actually need that power all the time.
cruisers are nerfed, escorts are buffed, and sci captains are marginalized by the change, pure and simple. and not by a little, by a lot. like, dont even bring a cruiser into pvp anymore because they are nerfed so hard, and are just to easy a target to kill. EPtS now has a built in subnuke, so who needs sci captains around. tac escorts are the only thing worth using if this terrible change ever goes live. its a good thing the romulan ships are mostly escorts and destroyers.
Comments
These two sentences explain much of the problem in a very concise manner. Thank you.
Are there any indications of what these changes ARE? And, what the rationale actually is? And will we be seeing the rest of these when LoR launches?
I have a dreaded vision of these half-done changes rotting for 3-6 months, which may be worse than a bunch of bad, but complete, changes going in.
3 copies EPtS: 100% uptime
2 copies EPtS: 89% uptime (active 40 seconds, down 5 seconds, repeat)
2 copies EPtS, 1 copy EPtW/A/E: 80% uptime (active 40 seconds, down 10 seconds, repeat)
2 copies EPtS, 2 copy EPtW/A/E: 66% uptime (active 20 seconds, down 10 seconds, repeat)
1 copy EPts: 45% uptime: (active 20 seconds, down 25 seconds, repeat)
Honestly, for ships running 2 copies of EPtS, a 5 second window isn't very large, and there are plenty of ways to survive. If that 5 seconds is still unacceptable to you, 1-2 Damage Control Engineers will do a fair job of removing it entirely.
All this change seems to do is completely uncouple using 4 EPtX abilities (2 and 2) to stagger a permanent buff. Since most escorts and science ships don't use these anyways, this really only affects cruisers.
Were cruisers in need of a nerf?
Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
How will this affect PvP?
Cruisers in PvP make fine pressure DPSers (with A2B) and dedicated healers. The dedicated healing cruisers tend not to use 4 EPtX anyways, so they won't really be affected. The A2B cruisers on the other hand will have to choose between dropping EPtA or accepting a 66% EPtS uptime.
For everyone else only using 2 copies of EPtS, while you gain a 5 second window where your resistance drops every 40 seconds, you also gain 50% more healing from EPtS! (Why, you ask?) Instead of gaining the heal twice per minute, players will gain the heal 3x per minute. There may be a small window of vulnerability, but overall healing just went up.
Again, just some more things to think about. The sky isn't falling with this change. The only people who should be frowning are A2B users and PvE cruiser pilots. Everyone else can go about their business.
Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
Yes.
I really don't want to steer the thread away from EPtX and back to ship role viability though. If you want to go 10 rounds on the subject with me, start a new thread and I will try to make time to oblidge
Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
Or you could check out one of the other threads where he goes into great detail bout how pressure dps doesn't work in this game anymore.
Do you even Science Bro?
Good grief, more changes? And they?re doing them in stages instead of one big change package? That?s crazy, how can anything be really tested then? Besides that doing constant changes is BAD for a game, even Blizz admits that.
What?s going on over there anyway? They hire more guys but instead of getting them working on content right away they're set loose on the powers and balancing? Madness.
or u noobs can remember getting a kill isnt everything. pressure forces healing and buffs, spikers and snb support then break thru. stop looking at a mmo from a single player perspective
let the die fall as it may. cmon hard 8
the stale state of pvp needs a reboot. hold onto ur hacks
this is not an accurate description of season 7, or even season 6 really, pressure in pvp
Pressure...procs.
It stacks resistance for the ResA/ResB shields.
It procs various other heals/resistance buffs.
Pressure not only doesn't kill, pressure actually makes it harder to kill.
The twisted world of STO since last year.
Who said the only way to provide pressure was beams. ?
Beam pressure will provide the other kind of procs as well... like polaron and phaser which do setup kills.
Frankly beams do suck I agree.
Current game pressure weapons that everyone seems adverse to.
1) Turret boat
2) torp boat.
I am 100% serious as well... if your a healer you should have nothing but plasma torps or phaser turrets plinking away. (or some odd ball combo)
People are to hung up on there beams... the simple adjustment to Res A and B.... 3 plasma torps in the front with a Peng. 2 Plasma mines 2 Plasma torps in the back...and I am 100% serious about that. It will never kill anyone on its own.... but neither will beams so who cares. What it does do is force hazards and cross healing all over the place.
2-3 Cruisers rocking a bunch of phased polaron turrets... just as annoying.
Those builds do open windows... the proc heals are stupid I agree... still they can be worked around. People are just to unwilling to shelve there beams.
...?
single player perspective?
Do you even Science Bro?
Where did my post mention beams at all?
Those Phaser turrets you mention plinking away with their chance to offline a system - that's been adjusted and is not as effective as it once was - that's not even taking into account Subystem Repair or Human BOFFs.
What they are doing though, is stacking Phaser resistance faster - meaning any spike Phaser damage is going to be less than because of that plink, plink, plink.
Also, the way the various heal/resist procs work - it doesn't scale. The proc is the same whether the person was hit by:
Random DHC Mk XII [Acc][CrtH]x2, 5x Matching Tac Consoles Mk XII, 125 Weapon Power, TT, APA, APO, GDF, TFleet, EPtW, etc, etc, etc...on a target that's been hit by Sensor Scan, APB, Disruptor proc, tractored for Accuracy Overflow, etc, etc, etc.
...or...
Random Turret Mk I, 1 Weapon Power...against a target capped on Hull/Shield resists.
As for Plasma Torps (or those folks that like the Rom [Pla] for their non-Plasma weapons) - depending on how much damage that does, just let it run - the resist/heal that it can proc will far outweigh any damage it does.
Now, if they added scaling - it would be a different story...imho, they should add scaling. In adding the scaling though, they could avoid the potential exploit of triggering the CD on the heal/resist from the proc by basing it on a cap. If it currently does X based on a hit, then it would require Y damage being done to before it could proc. If the Z's add up, then it can proc. We'll never see that though.
Not sure on turrets... last I checked the proc rate was still one heck of a lot higher then anything else.
The phaser proc resistance... isn't all that good.
Human boffs are quite rightly about to get the nerf hammer hard, thankfully... at that point subsystem repair will go back to sucking as hard as it always has.
Honestly I suggested Phased Pols... which are pol dmg... Spikers should NEVER be running dual wepaons due to the loss of a MOD... so in general they are a safe bet to not be procking resist values..
Frankly I don't think theres much point in worrying about the RES values to much anyway... as lets be honest 1 round of fire from pretty much any ship maxes it out anyway.
Still in an idea team... The Pressure should all be one type of weapon dmg... it and the spikers should all be another. One RES A one RES B.
I'm just theory crafting here cause I haven't really been playing... but if you where going to build a pressure team around energy and not torps. (I would say torps are the better option anyway)... however.
3 Pressure ships... all Pol Phased Turrets.
2 Spike ships... 1 all energy... 1 Overload torp boat... both different weapon dmg types. To leave the Overload HY boat dmg type clean... for un resisted overloads.
When I talk about pressure damage, I'm primarily referring to something that is done by non-escorts and that (via dealing damage) weakens the target in a way that forces it to use heals on itself and also potentially opens it up for an attack from the main dps (and this latter part is why I'm reluctant to include direct-to-hull pressure from e.g. plasma torpedo boats - if the target still has essentially full shields, most of the time it isn't really weakened in a way that makes an attack with energy weapons easy.)
Or am I one of the only people who recognizes that Cruiser/EPtX builds were conceptualized by Cryptic to let these otherwise useless ships have the appearance of being competitive with escorts and science ships in PVE and PVP?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Sucks like hell, I'm not a huge fan of the escort playstyle but I already have my BO HY spiker planed for when the changes go as they are to live. Cause if those changes go as is then there is not one cruiser that doesnt have some other kind of ship that does its job better. Even shield tanking will go to a few oddball escort builds. seriously try killing an escort thats setting off EPTS3 every 20 seconds while cycling APO and APB. Its like driving main line battle tank into a paintball tournament.
Its on tribble right now... go test it.
If you have feedback leave it in the tribble section.
Bort has stated he is still looking it over.
Some of use believe its overall a good idea... many don't.
Add your 2 cents in the tribble feedback section after you go test it out.
Correction, YOU think its a good idea :P
Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
I'm not the only one... most folks aren't as vocal on the forums as the 10 of us that post. lol
Wait, you like the current version? The one that buffs 2x EPtS and nerfs everything else?
I like it better then the stupid version on live honestly.
As you say.
An initial reaction I've edited to something less harsh. You were a bit too quick :P
just use EPtS? now you have more low level eng skills then you can use on most ships, you can only use EPtS1 on our cruiser, and your total energy pool levels you ran before are more then 20 less then they used to be, critically effecting healing or damage output.
meanwhile EPtE is better then APO movement all the time for an escort, making it easier for them to mitigate 10 second holes. the EPtW change favors spike instead of cruiser pressure damage because the cruisers actually need that power all the time.
cruisers are nerfed, escorts are buffed, and sci captains are marginalized by the change, pure and simple. and not by a little, by a lot. like, dont even bring a cruiser into pvp anymore because they are nerfed so hard, and are just to easy a target to kill. EPtS now has a built in subnuke, so who needs sci captains around. tac escorts are the only thing worth using if this terrible change ever goes live. its a good thing the romulan ships are mostly escorts and destroyers.