the skills for tractoring are sci skills, leave it there
what would we do with 3x tractor anyway... ensign slots are the problem
Ugh, you are missing the point I guess. There is like 7 subsystem choices for sci skills on ensign level, but only 2 subsystem choices for engineering ensigns.
Also your analogy fails as shield emmiters are also science (and operations) skills, while shields are mainly engineering stuff (extended, rsp, epts).
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
Ugh, you are missing the point I guess. There is like 7 subsystem choices for sci skills on ensign level, but only 2 subsystem choices for engineering ensigns.
Ugh, we have 4 EPtX1 ensign skills, the problem is that they interfere with other EPtX timers. You can either use all of your ensign slots or you cant use any of them. Adding 1 tractor beam doesnt fix it, you'll still have 1 or 2 ensigns open....
Ugh, we have 4 EPtX1 ensign skills, the problem is that they interfere with other EPtX timers. You can either use all of your ensign slots or you cant use any of them. Adding 1 tractor beam doesnt fix it, you'll still have 1 or 2 ensigns open....
Of course it helps. Because if I want to use two high ranked EP powers on my galaxy I'm left with three useless ensigns. So I would gladly take anything else, except EP powers there. Naturally, escorts won't run into this problem.
But I understand, any change that actually would improve cruisers, or would give them some other option instead being pidgeon-holed into not-working tanking or healing slavery is a bad thing.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
Sci -> Eng
Hazard Emitters
Polarize Hull
Transfer Shield Strength
Eng -> Sci
Aceton Beam
Eng -> Tac
Boarding Party
Other Changes
Remove shield heal from Science Team.
Give VM cleanse to Science Team (remove from Engineering Team).
Have Engineering Team repair disables (remove from Tactical/Science Teams).
Move Starship Shield Emitters, Starship Shield Systems, Starship Power Insulators from Science and Operation Systems to Engineering.
(Rename Science and Operation Systems to Science Systems.)
Move Starship Stealth from Tactical to Science.
Add Starship Fleet Maneuvers to Tactical - provide buff to team buffs.
Add Starship Subsystem Hardening to Engineering - provide resistance to subsystem disables.
Add Starship Engineering Training - provides basic buff to Engineering abilities (akin to Tactical's Weapon Training vs. the various specializations).
Add Starship Medical Training - provides buff to crew regen/resist.
Add Starship Astrometrics - provides buff to various "exploration" abilities.
Remove Tactical abilities ability to buff non-weapon damage.
Buff non-weapon damage.
(Tactical Captains will still be capable of doing the most damage.)
Add "To-Hit" Rolls for Science abilities - where Accuracy = Science skill used for attack and Defense = skill currently used to reduce effect after the attack. (It's always bugged me that somebody with 0 CMS, 0 CMS consoles/gear, etc - had a 100% chance to Jam somebody with 9 Sensors, 5x +30 Sensors consoles, Astrophysicist, other gear, etc, etc, etc. There should be a return on investment, whether as attacker or defender.)
Change cleanses to partial cleanses based on rank. Rank I will cleanse X, Rank II will cleanse will cleanse Y, and Rank III will cleanse Z. Even Rank III will still only be able to cleanse so many debuffs/hazards.
Change Subnucleonic Beam to a partial strip.
(The following two changes could result in players running around with more of a mix of buffs/debuffs - rather than it being the Yo-Yo on/off mechanic we currently do not enjoy.)
And now I return you to your regularly scheduled grind... are you looking forward to Nukara Rep as much as me? Please, Cryptic - please - let there be more than enough space stuff we can do so we don't have to do crappy ground TRIBBLE.
That's a pretty good list, although the "Other Changes" is overwhelming. Might as well add things like remove shield rotation from TT, or add APA as trainable.
That's a pretty good list, although the "Other Changes" is overwhelming. Might as well add things like remove shield rotation from TT, or add APA as trainable.
To be honest for me, in thinking of the Tactical BOFF as an Operation-Tactical BOFF helps in regard to how the shield distribution takes place for Tac Team. It would be part of the training that they would have received and something they would be able to do better those without that training. Which basically provides us with how TT works versus what we can do with keybinds or the spacebar.
Also, as far as APA - again, that would get into the training that one would have gone through while attending the academy. Those pursuing a Tactical Career would have taken more advanced courses...tada, APA.
Had originally meant just to list the first part, but some folks complain I spiderweb stuff - different things all over the place. Course, I forgot three for that one, but I'm too lazy to go back and edit it...
Removing the Subsystem Targeting from Science Vessels.
Adding EPtX and the Teams as innate ships.
Doing something akin to what mai said about the toggle for the EPtX abilities along with a power pool of sorts. While toggled on, it will drain from that pool (tada, Emergency Power) - various recharge rates (EPS help, eh?)...etc, etc, etc.
Sci healers need hazards.... its also a Sci captain trainable skill.
It never struck you as odd, that a Science Captain needs 6 in Hull Repair (an Engineering Systems skill) to be able train Hazard Emitters III?
That, oh...perhaps a skill requiring 6 in an Engineering skill - should probably be something so for an Eng Captain?
It's like an Eng Captain needing 6 in Energy Weapon Specialization, a Tac skill, to be able to train DEM3.
Still not as bad as the following, eh?
EPtW3 - 6pts in Starship Weapon Performance (T5 Eng), 3k SP/pt
EPtA3 - 6pts in Starship Auxiliary Performance (T5 Eng), 3k SP/pt
EPtE3 - 6pts in Starship Impulse Thrusters (T3 Eng), 2k SP/pt (not in T4 Starship Engine Performance for some reason - oh, because that's where the Eng gets EWP3)
EPtS3 - 6pts in Starship Shield Systems (T2 Sci/Ops), 1.5k SP/pt (not in T4 Starship Shield Performance for some reason - oh, because that's where the Eng gets ExS3)
Sci healers should be healing the crew. Medical staff and all that. They shouldn't be healing the ship's hull nor shields.
Let's look at the Sci Captain's innate abilities on the Ground for Shield Healing. Well then, none.
Let's look at the Sci BOFFs to see what Shield Healing abilities they have on the ground. Hrmm, none.
How about the Eng Captain and his/her innate abilities on the Ground for Shield Healing? Reroute Power to Shields. Support Drone Fabrication (can repair shields). Engineering Proficiency (has shield regen). Cover Shield (they create a shield barrier). Orbital Strike. No shield there. Aha, so 4 of 5 abilities include Shields.
How about the Eng BOFFS? Do they have any Shield Healing abilities on the ground? Shield Recharge. Reroute Power to Shields. Shield Generator Fabrication. Cover Shield. Equipment Diagnostics. Combat Supply. Support Drone Fabrication. So uh, 14 abilities and 7 of them involve Shields.
Quick Ground Review:
Sci Captain - 0 of 5.
Sci BOFF - 0 of 14.
Eng Captain - 4 of 5.
Sci Captain - 7 of 14.
That's just showing that Sci should have nothing to do with Shields. Guess what? They've got nothing for mechanical/hull type healing either.
There shouldn't be any Sci Healers...any more than there would be a Tac Healer. They could run a boat with the relevant Eng BOFFs for healing...and...that would be that.
It's like Cryptic decided that somehow Sci learned to be a ship healer while the Eng couldn't figure out how to do some of the same things they do on the Ground in Space.
I am always telling people there cruisers are heal boats ect... however I still wouldn't want to see cruiser being main healer and backup heals.
Hazards has become far to strong which is why no one needs cruiser healers... but I wouldn't go so far as saying give ALL the heals to the cruisers.
The skill tree junk... is all part of the horrible redesign... pre f2p it was emitters (a sci skill) that allowed hazards training.
No you can't move hazards with out making sci ships pointless in terms of healing... and making cruisers required healers.
Honestly if where up to me I would strip all most and likely every single debuff clear from hazards... and make it ONLY heal. Moving a good chunk of the debuff clears to engi team. Perhaps moving the energy drain clears that hazards does now to sci team.
Your right it is pretty much a big face palm... but making cruisers super healing stupid boats with hazards 1 x 2 / Engi Team 3 / TSS 2 / ES 2 / Sif 3... would be insane... not only would it encourage the horrible "tank" builds... that really would never die or heal anyone or kill anyone... it would force every team to take 2-3 cruisers... and match times wouldn't just go up they would never end.
You would doom every cruiser ever to being main healer and backup healer at the same time.
Transfer shield is a Sci skill and should be...
Extend is the engi alt there...
One thing we could do to enforce the cruiser support role. With out moving a ton of stuff....
Drop Extend shields down one to match Transfer... and nerf the range on it back to the more reasonable 5k it used to be. I think that alone would fix the ensign issue for engies. There is no reason not to carry an extend... and even a back up second copy.
I would still move PH though... its just more the engi skill imo. People that claim cruisers are tanks will welcome PH... and honestly the biggest issue to cruisers is the general lack of tractor breaks... PH would fill that role nicely... with out completely changing the roles of the ships.
Really Sci with no heals ? there would be no sci ships overnight with that change.
It's like Cryptic decided that somehow Sci learned to be a ship healer while the Eng couldn't figure out how to do some of the same things they do on the Ground in Space.
I suspect the idea was probly along the lines of Tac does weapons, Eng does hull, Sci does ... umm ... *looks around* ... we could give them shields?
Your right it is pretty much a big face palm... but making cruisers super healing stupid boats with hazards 1 x 2 / Engi Team 3 / TSS 2 / ES 2 / Sif 3... would be insane... not only would it encourage the horrible "tank" builds... that really would never die or heal anyone or kill anyone... it would force every team to take 2-3 cruisers... and match times wouldn't just go up they would never end.
What are probably the 4 most common abilities on ships?
TT1, EPtS1, HE1/TSS1, HE2/TSS2.
What happens if you move HE/TSS to Eng? Players are now faced with an Opportunity Cost.
Are they going to slot their EPtX or are they going to slot HE? TSS? The majority of ships have few Eng slots. They make up for it with the combination of the heals/resistance from the Eng/Sci slots...which add up. They won't add up. They'll be weaker then.
The Cruiser, eh? Let's look at the abilities you listed.
HE1, X, ET3, AtS3
HE1, TSS2, ExS2
Figure they drop in an EPtS2 or RSP1 or even an ExS1?
So uh, the only thing they're really adding to their build (considering it was a mix of Eng/Sci before)...might be a second HE if they didn't already have it?
I mean, honestly - look at a Recluse or even a Sci Ody. They'd be giving up part of their tank to maintain being the healer. Again, they'd face a similar opportunity cost as everybody else.
Where are they going to slot the PH as well, for those without access to APO? Another opportunity cost.
On top of that...you're also going to have the additional Sci abilities in play on the field.
As far as making Sci ships useless as far as healing...again...why is the Sci ship healing in the first place instead of focusing on Bill Nye's dirty bag o' tricks and spamming shenanigans?
Course, if they were to do this...I'd definitely have an issue, lol. Even though it's not a Sci ship, my Sci Hegh'ta runs with 4x Sci BOFFs. It would complicate things.
I suspect the idea was probly along the lines of Tac does weapons, Eng does hull, Sci does ... umm ... *looks around* ... we could give them shields?
I think that was pretty much what they did with Sci in general.
Going with a bit of Starfleet bias (just because the info is there for them, not so much for the KDF) - there are three Starfleet Divisions that we typically see when it comes to captains and bridge officers.
Command (which also includes helm/conn)
Operations (which includes not only Tac and Eng, but Security and others)
Science (which is basically your scientists and medical folks)
Many of the "hero" characters are dual spec, in the sense that they are Command/Tac, Tac/Eng, Eng/Sci, etc, etc, etc. Look at the various biographies for the characters and note what they did at the academy and how they served during the points leading up to where we saw them (and even from there, how that evolved as we saw them).
Cryptic didn't give us that. They tried to make Science "on par" with the others...when that was never really demonstrated. Various versions of Operations/Sci or Command/Sci...sure...but Cryptic didn't give us that option.
So wham, bam, how do we make Sci something in STO? Give them stuff that belonged to Tac or Eng. /sigh
Really Sci with no heals ? there would be no sci ships overnight with that change.
Well, that gets into addressing the strength of those Sci abilities. Remember, I also mentioned that Tac abilities, imho, shouldn't buff non-weapon damage...but...non-weapon damage needs to be buffed.
The Tac in a Sci would still have the potential to do more damage than the Sci in the Sci...because the Tac would still be buffing the weapons. The Sci wouldn't be buffing the non-weapon damage any more than anybody else could through skill/gear. The Sci would still bring SNB to the party in the Sci, which the Tac couldn't.
I suppose part of my bias, is that I don't run a healer. My Sci/Sci is not a healer by any means. My Sci/BoP is not a healer by any means. Neither of my main Eng are healers either. I did roll two Eng alts to give healing a shot...but I usually end up wanting to log them out, grab one of my guys for the opposing side, and hopefully find the people that I had been trying to heal still in the queues...so I can blow them up.
I'm not a big believer in the magic wand healing that STO has going on for it. Are we playing a science fiction game with spaceships traveling amongst the stars...or...are we running around in robes, carrying staves, wearing plate, and swinging swords, and shooting fireballs? I mean...meh...yeah, I'm not a big fan of all the magic wand healing in STO.
He's got a Stealth Detection Rating of 650.75 (5325.4 Perception) before using Sensor Scan or EPtA1. He hunts Stealthers. The EPtA changes for LoR are going to be Evil, imho. I'll likely give up EPtS (I've been trying to run without it on ships ever since the announcement, just to get a feel for the downtime) to 2x EPtA1 so I've got that 40s up, 5s down, 40s up buff going to my Stealth Detection on him.
But yeah, chron mines, some subsystem targeting, tractor, grav well, SNB... he's a Sci in a Sci - but he's not a healer. With the coming of LoR and Fed Romulans cloaking - may even get more use out of him (I can switch out gear for him to do annoying stuff against Feds, but it's nowhere the same as the fun that can be had playing peekaboo with the guy that doesn't realize you can see him).
I definitely have more fun on my KDF Sci though, and here's his BOFF layout:
Yep, a Sci Hegh'ta with 4x Sci BOFFs. Oddly enough, out of my six main guys (not counting those two healers) - he's the guy most likely to toss somebody a heal, whether it's the ST, HE, or TSS. For the most part he doesn't need them, but it can be funny to troll some folks in Ker'rat or CnH with the "tanking BoP"...
I use him mainly to do two things: tank busting and buff busting. Sure, he can help clear spam - antagonize healers - or - help stop somebody from escaping; but tank and buff busting are just too much fun.
Folks talk about their decloak alphas and their insane damage. That's not really my thing. I'll fly around, watching guys beating on somebody while getting nowhere. Watch to see who's healing them - watch the buff/heal cycles...then decloak and spread the shenanigans so the guys that were beating on the one guy can hopefully knock off more than just that guy.
The other, man, it's just sheer trolling on my part. Sitting there cloaked, watching somebody start up their buff cycle to make a move on somebody...and...strip their buffs and park them - a nice present for the guy they were going to attack (well, it's PUGland - they probably still haven't noticed the guy yet - meh).
I don't think of Sci as a healer. I don't picture Sci boats as heal boats. I've never had the hate in zone chat on a Tac or Eng, whether in Escorts, Cruisers, or whatever...that I get from my Sci guys.
I suppose I look at it in the following way:
Tac - DPS
Eng - Heals
Sci - Shenanigans
Personally though, I really hate the magic wand healing stuff. I'd make the individual ships more self-reliant. Heck, most of my ships are more self-reliant because I PUG...I think my jaw would drop to the floor if I ever got a heal (course, it's rare that I do either - we're all trying to win the fight alone and going nowhere fast).
I said in one thread that I thought a couple of nifty changes to ExS and TSS would be the following:
Extend Shields actually...extended the shields around that friendly target. Damage taken would be applied to the shields of the person extending the shields.
Transfer Shield Strength actually...transferred shield strength. A person would sacrifice some of their shields for another.
As it stands, both are just magic wand shields peopled pulled out a top hat...meh.
But yeah, if they were moved to Eng and some Sci abilities were lowered in rank - that's more shenanigans I could get up to...there's definitely a bias there on my part, no doubt.
You know the first time I read your 'move around all the boff abilities' idea I thought it was crazy.
Then I thought about it.
And yeah it is still a crazy idea.
An awesome crazy good idea that is. Really if that were to happen, atleast the heals to Eng portion anyway, it would do exactly what you stated. Create opportunity cost. And that would be a good, ney, a great thing! The rest not sure yet.
The only thing I would do in combination would be to move the EPtW ability to Tac and EPtA to Sci. I know those are currently an engineers bread and butter but I think it would really help out the entire ensign slot issue a bit and help to make decisions on abilities even more difficult!
It's very rough - a collection of random posts here and there - there are so many variables involved with STO, I honestly couldn't recommend it myself. There's just too many things out there.
It's one of the reasons that I'm happy, in a sense, that Cryptic does take some time to address certain things.
It's one of the reasons that I'm unhappy that Cryptic addressed certain things too quickly without considering everything.
Still, there are certain things I just don't get why they haven't been addressed yet. The shifting powers isn't one...that's a major thing and I doubt it would be possible and in the end would likely hurt the game more than help it unless a bunch of things were addressed at the same time. It's more of a STO2 thing...but it can help to illustrate some of the issues in the game.
I dislike the idea of giving all heals to cruiser and pidgeon-hole it to healer slave. I say PH/Tractor beam
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I agree I would say move them both... just don't duplicate them.
Or just being them universal powers, just anything actually that would improve engineering ensigns options. PH and tractor are most obvious choices as all ships should have them anyway.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
I have got another idea - kinda merging two ideas I saw somewhere to a single one. Not sure if good one hehe.
Remove the current Emergency Powers and give them to everyone. They would act like a battery of some sort that would give you just power for let's say 30s, then it would need to replenish itself for 2:30 minutes. These would be just straight +power bonuses. +50 comes to my mind.
In the place of current EP powers, create Aux to subsystem powers. These powers would drain your aux power and increase your subsystem cap in return with some extra bonuses.
SO this combination would allow you for a short period of time, to have for example 175 in shields or weapons with all the benefits it gives.
Of course this would not benefit people that just wan't extra resistances while having all energy to weapons. It's more of enhancing your primary power in a critical moment for maximum effect.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
Or just being them universal powers, just anything actually that would improve engineering ensigns options. PH and tractor are most obvious choices as all ships should have them anyway.
I don't think so...
I like the idea that every star trek ship had a tractor... however I like to play video games.
Giving everyone a free 22% uptime hold... is just plain annoying... never mind the number of people that would run 2 copies for an extremely annoying 44% uptime... and then of course we have pets that can easily account for abother 20-40% uptime as well.
I like many laughed at TOR... we enjoyed calling it Stun Wars.
I for one don't want to have to make Hold Trek Jokes.
I like the idea that every star trek ship had a tractor... however I like to play video games.
Giving everyone a free 22% uptime hold... is just plain annoying... never mind the number of people that would run 2 copies for an extremely annoying 44% uptime... and then of course we have pets that can easily account for abother 20-40% uptime as well.
I like many laughed at TOR... we enjoyed calling it Stun Wars.
I for one don't want to have to make Hold Trek Jokes.
If only there was some mystical, magical ability your escort could get to break those tractors. Some kind of crazy super ability that not only broke it, but made you immune, gave you damage resist AND increased your damage. But pfft, who am I kidding, that would be CRAZY! :P
No but seriously, I actually kind of agree with you (shocked!)
If only there was some mystical, magical ability your escort could get to break those tractors. Some kind of crazy super ability that not only broke it, but made you immune, gave you damage resist AND increased your damage. But pfft, who am I kidding, that would be CRAZY! :P
No but seriously, I actually kind of agree with you (shocked!)
Haha. For awhile, I had a aux2bat cruiser that ran Warp Plasma, DPB2 on Tricobalt mines (before nerf), and Tractor beam. The escorts that didn't carry APO were piping mad! :P
__________________________________________________
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If only there was some mystical, magical ability your escort could get to break those tractors. Some kind of crazy super ability that not only broke it, but made you immune, gave you damage resist AND increased your damage. But pfft, who am I kidding, that would be CRAZY! :P
No but seriously, I actually kind of agree with you (shocked!)
Trust me friend... my escorts laugh at tractors.
Omega 50% up (those AP doffs are the real issue imo)... Evasive... EPTE... and if I really feel like It I swap in PH. (for 100% tractor immunity) Good luck trying to tractor my escort.
Of course I don't only play escorts. lol
My cruisers in general have PH perhaps... but not on all of em and not always slotted.
My sci ships... ya I often have a jam 1 or a PH 1...
Still they are beyond anoying.
Anyone that says they enjoy fighting a sci ship rocking dual tractor beams is a moron.
Lets give everyone dual tractors... its a great idea. lol It is funny we agree I guess... could you imagine everyone with at least 1 and lots of people with 2. lol it would be nuts.
Comments
what would we do with 3x tractor anyway... ensign slots are the problem
Ugh, you are missing the point I guess. There is like 7 subsystem choices for sci skills on ensign level, but only 2 subsystem choices for engineering ensigns.
Also your analogy fails as shield emmiters are also science (and operations) skills, while shields are mainly engineering stuff (extended, rsp, epts).
Balancing stuff on broken mechanics is a bad idea, like trying to base abilities off of active crew
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Of course it helps. Because if I want to use two high ranked EP powers on my galaxy I'm left with three useless ensigns. So I would gladly take anything else, except EP powers there. Naturally, escorts won't run into this problem.
But I understand, any change that actually would improve cruisers, or would give them some other option instead being pidgeon-holed into not-working tanking or healing slavery is a bad thing.
Hazard Emitters
Polarize Hull
Transfer Shield Strength
Eng -> Sci
Aceton Beam
Eng -> Tac
Boarding Party
Other Changes
Remove shield heal from Science Team.
Give VM cleanse to Science Team (remove from Engineering Team).
Have Engineering Team repair disables (remove from Tactical/Science Teams).
Move Starship Shield Emitters, Starship Shield Systems, Starship Power Insulators from Science and Operation Systems to Engineering.
(Rename Science and Operation Systems to Science Systems.)
Move Starship Stealth from Tactical to Science.
Add Starship Fleet Maneuvers to Tactical - provide buff to team buffs.
Add Starship Subsystem Hardening to Engineering - provide resistance to subsystem disables.
Add Starship Engineering Training - provides basic buff to Engineering abilities (akin to Tactical's Weapon Training vs. the various specializations).
Add Starship Medical Training - provides buff to crew regen/resist.
Add Starship Astrometrics - provides buff to various "exploration" abilities.
Remove Tactical abilities ability to buff non-weapon damage.
Buff non-weapon damage.
(Tactical Captains will still be capable of doing the most damage.)
Add "To-Hit" Rolls for Science abilities - where Accuracy = Science skill used for attack and Defense = skill currently used to reduce effect after the attack. (It's always bugged me that somebody with 0 CMS, 0 CMS consoles/gear, etc - had a 100% chance to Jam somebody with 9 Sensors, 5x +30 Sensors consoles, Astrophysicist, other gear, etc, etc, etc. There should be a return on investment, whether as attacker or defender.)
Change cleanses to partial cleanses based on rank. Rank I will cleanse X, Rank II will cleanse will cleanse Y, and Rank III will cleanse Z. Even Rank III will still only be able to cleanse so many debuffs/hazards.
Change Subnucleonic Beam to a partial strip.
(The following two changes could result in players running around with more of a mix of buffs/debuffs - rather than it being the Yo-Yo on/off mechanic we currently do not enjoy.)
And now I return you to your regularly scheduled grind... are you looking forward to Nukara Rep as much as me? Please, Cryptic - please - let there be more than enough space stuff we can do so we don't have to do crappy ground TRIBBLE.
To be honest for me, in thinking of the Tactical BOFF as an Operation-Tactical BOFF helps in regard to how the shield distribution takes place for Tac Team. It would be part of the training that they would have received and something they would be able to do better those without that training. Which basically provides us with how TT works versus what we can do with keybinds or the spacebar.
Also, as far as APA - again, that would get into the training that one would have gone through while attending the academy. Those pursuing a Tactical Career would have taken more advanced courses...tada, APA.
Had originally meant just to list the first part, but some folks complain I spiderweb stuff - different things all over the place. Course, I forgot three for that one, but I'm too lazy to go back and edit it...
Removing the Subsystem Targeting from Science Vessels.
Adding EPtX and the Teams as innate ships.
Doing something akin to what mai said about the toggle for the EPtX abilities along with a power pool of sorts. While toggled on, it will drain from that pool (tada, Emergency Power) - various recharge rates (EPS help, eh?)...etc, etc, etc.
Oh well - I hear sleep calling...have fun all.
Sci healers need hazards.... its also a Sci captain trainable skill.
Polarized hull on the other hand has nothing at all to do with a sci officer... and everything to do with an engi.
It would also give all 3 types a tractor beam break...
Omega -tac
Pol Hul - Engi
Jam Sensor - Sci
Aceton I wouldn't change either... its intended to be the weaker engi debuff skill.
What I would do is make it cleared by engi team instead of hazards though... that would make it 2x more usable.
It never struck you as odd, that a Science Captain needs 6 in Hull Repair (an Engineering Systems skill) to be able train Hazard Emitters III?
That, oh...perhaps a skill requiring 6 in an Engineering skill - should probably be something so for an Eng Captain?
It's like an Eng Captain needing 6 in Energy Weapon Specialization, a Tac skill, to be able to train DEM3.
Still not as bad as the following, eh?
EPtW3 - 6pts in Starship Weapon Performance (T5 Eng), 3k SP/pt
EPtA3 - 6pts in Starship Auxiliary Performance (T5 Eng), 3k SP/pt
EPtE3 - 6pts in Starship Impulse Thrusters (T3 Eng), 2k SP/pt (not in T4 Starship Engine Performance for some reason - oh, because that's where the Eng gets EWP3)
EPtS3 - 6pts in Starship Shield Systems (T2 Sci/Ops), 1.5k SP/pt (not in T4 Starship Shield Performance for some reason - oh, because that's where the Eng gets ExS3)
The whole thing is a kludged mess.
Sci healers should be healing the crew. Medical staff and all that. They shouldn't be healing the ship's hull nor shields.
Let's look at the Sci Captain's innate abilities on the Ground for Shield Healing. Well then, none.
Let's look at the Sci BOFFs to see what Shield Healing abilities they have on the ground. Hrmm, none.
How about the Eng Captain and his/her innate abilities on the Ground for Shield Healing? Reroute Power to Shields. Support Drone Fabrication (can repair shields). Engineering Proficiency (has shield regen). Cover Shield (they create a shield barrier). Orbital Strike. No shield there. Aha, so 4 of 5 abilities include Shields.
How about the Eng BOFFS? Do they have any Shield Healing abilities on the ground? Shield Recharge. Reroute Power to Shields. Shield Generator Fabrication. Cover Shield. Equipment Diagnostics. Combat Supply. Support Drone Fabrication. So uh, 14 abilities and 7 of them involve Shields.
Quick Ground Review:
Sci Captain - 0 of 5.
Sci BOFF - 0 of 14.
Eng Captain - 4 of 5.
Sci Captain - 7 of 14.
That's just showing that Sci should have nothing to do with Shields. Guess what? They've got nothing for mechanical/hull type healing either.
There shouldn't be any Sci Healers...any more than there would be a Tac Healer. They could run a boat with the relevant Eng BOFFs for healing...and...that would be that.
It's like Cryptic decided that somehow Sci learned to be a ship healer while the Eng couldn't figure out how to do some of the same things they do on the Ground in Space.
It's just an epic /facepalm.
I am always telling people there cruisers are heal boats ect... however I still wouldn't want to see cruiser being main healer and backup heals.
Hazards has become far to strong which is why no one needs cruiser healers... but I wouldn't go so far as saying give ALL the heals to the cruisers.
The skill tree junk... is all part of the horrible redesign... pre f2p it was emitters (a sci skill) that allowed hazards training.
No you can't move hazards with out making sci ships pointless in terms of healing... and making cruisers required healers.
Honestly if where up to me I would strip all most and likely every single debuff clear from hazards... and make it ONLY heal. Moving a good chunk of the debuff clears to engi team. Perhaps moving the energy drain clears that hazards does now to sci team.
Your right it is pretty much a big face palm... but making cruisers super healing stupid boats with hazards 1 x 2 / Engi Team 3 / TSS 2 / ES 2 / Sif 3... would be insane... not only would it encourage the horrible "tank" builds... that really would never die or heal anyone or kill anyone... it would force every team to take 2-3 cruisers... and match times wouldn't just go up they would never end.
BFAW, BO, BTE, BTW, BTA, BTS, THY, TS, TT
EPtA, EPtE, EPtS, EPtW, ET, HE, PH, TSS
JS, MES, ST, TachB, TracB
And yep, to me - that doesn't look right. I'd also shift some of the Sci abilities down.
Consider the following if you will (currently):
Tac
Total Distinct - 16
En - 9
Lt - 15 (9+6)
LCdr - 16 (9+6+1)
Cmdr - 7 (including a 2/3)
Eng
Total Distinct - 14
En - 5
Lt - 12 (5+7)
LCdr - 14 (5+7+2)
Cmdr - 7 (including 2x 2/3)
Sci
Total Distinct - 18
En - 8 (a much better 8 than the Tac 9, eh?)
Lt - 15 (8+7)
LCdr - 18 (8+7+3)
Cmdr - 10 (including 3x 2/3)
Then the following (partial change - just moving abilities, not shifting):
Tac
Total Distinct - 17
En - 9
Lt - 16 (9+7) (added BP)
LCdr - 17 (9+6+1)
Cmdr - 7 (including a 2/3)
Eng
Total Distinct - 16
En - 8 (added HE, TSS, PH)
Lt - 15 (8+7)
LCdr - 16 (8+7+1)
Cmdr - 6 (including a 2/3) (removed AB)
Sci
Total Distinct - 16
En - 5 (removed HE, TSS, PH)
Lt - 12 (5+7)
LCdr - 16 (5+7+4) (added AB)
Cmdr - 11 (including 4x 2/3)
So it looks like 3-4 of the Sci abilities have to be shifted down, eh? That would make it:
En 8-9
Lt 12-13
LCdr 16
Cmdr 7-8
Heck, maybe even drop more of the LCdr down to Lt to get that 13-15 range while adding 1-3 to get to the 16 at LCdr.
But it works out as more balanced across the board as far as number of abilities and where they're available.
But on this one we are pretty far apart.
Moving all the healing skills to engi ?
You would doom every cruiser ever to being main healer and backup healer at the same time.
Transfer shield is a Sci skill and should be...
Extend is the engi alt there...
One thing we could do to enforce the cruiser support role. With out moving a ton of stuff....
Drop Extend shields down one to match Transfer... and nerf the range on it back to the more reasonable 5k it used to be. I think that alone would fix the ensign issue for engies. There is no reason not to carry an extend... and even a back up second copy.
I would still move PH though... its just more the engi skill imo. People that claim cruisers are tanks will welcome PH... and honestly the biggest issue to cruisers is the general lack of tractor breaks... PH would fill that role nicely... with out completely changing the roles of the ships.
Really Sci with no heals ? there would be no sci ships overnight with that change.
What are probably the 4 most common abilities on ships?
TT1, EPtS1, HE1/TSS1, HE2/TSS2.
What happens if you move HE/TSS to Eng? Players are now faced with an Opportunity Cost.
Are they going to slot their EPtX or are they going to slot HE? TSS? The majority of ships have few Eng slots. They make up for it with the combination of the heals/resistance from the Eng/Sci slots...which add up. They won't add up. They'll be weaker then.
The Cruiser, eh? Let's look at the abilities you listed.
HE1, X, ET3, AtS3
HE1, TSS2, ExS2
Figure they drop in an EPtS2 or RSP1 or even an ExS1?
So uh, the only thing they're really adding to their build (considering it was a mix of Eng/Sci before)...might be a second HE if they didn't already have it?
I mean, honestly - look at a Recluse or even a Sci Ody. They'd be giving up part of their tank to maintain being the healer. Again, they'd face a similar opportunity cost as everybody else.
Where are they going to slot the PH as well, for those without access to APO? Another opportunity cost.
On top of that...you're also going to have the additional Sci abilities in play on the field.
As far as making Sci ships useless as far as healing...again...why is the Sci ship healing in the first place instead of focusing on Bill Nye's dirty bag o' tricks and spamming shenanigans?
Course, if they were to do this...I'd definitely have an issue, lol. Even though it's not a Sci ship, my Sci Hegh'ta runs with 4x Sci BOFFs. It would complicate things.
I think that was pretty much what they did with Sci in general.
Going with a bit of Starfleet bias (just because the info is there for them, not so much for the KDF) - there are three Starfleet Divisions that we typically see when it comes to captains and bridge officers.
Command (which also includes helm/conn)
Operations (which includes not only Tac and Eng, but Security and others)
Science (which is basically your scientists and medical folks)
Many of the "hero" characters are dual spec, in the sense that they are Command/Tac, Tac/Eng, Eng/Sci, etc, etc, etc. Look at the various biographies for the characters and note what they did at the academy and how they served during the points leading up to where we saw them (and even from there, how that evolved as we saw them).
Cryptic didn't give us that. They tried to make Science "on par" with the others...when that was never really demonstrated. Various versions of Operations/Sci or Command/Sci...sure...but Cryptic didn't give us that option.
So wham, bam, how do we make Sci something in STO? Give them stuff that belonged to Tac or Eng. /sigh
Well, that gets into addressing the strength of those Sci abilities. Remember, I also mentioned that Tac abilities, imho, shouldn't buff non-weapon damage...but...non-weapon damage needs to be buffed.
The Tac in a Sci would still have the potential to do more damage than the Sci in the Sci...because the Tac would still be buffing the weapons. The Sci wouldn't be buffing the non-weapon damage any more than anybody else could through skill/gear. The Sci would still bring SNB to the party in the Sci, which the Tac couldn't.
I suppose part of my bias, is that I don't run a healer. My Sci/Sci is not a healer by any means. My Sci/BoP is not a healer by any means. Neither of my main Eng are healers either. I did roll two Eng alts to give healing a shot...but I usually end up wanting to log them out, grab one of my guys for the opposing side, and hopefully find the people that I had been trying to heal still in the queues...so I can blow them up.
I'm not a big believer in the magic wand healing that STO has going on for it. Are we playing a science fiction game with spaceships traveling amongst the stars...or...are we running around in robes, carrying staves, wearing plate, and swinging swords, and shooting fireballs? I mean...meh...yeah, I'm not a big fan of all the magic wand healing in STO.
This is the BOFF layout for my Fed Sci:
TT1, TS2
EPtS1, ATS1
EPtA1
JS1, HE2, TB3, GW3
ST1, TSS2, SS2
He's got a Stealth Detection Rating of 650.75 (5325.4 Perception) before using Sensor Scan or EPtA1. He hunts Stealthers. The EPtA changes for LoR are going to be Evil, imho. I'll likely give up EPtS (I've been trying to run without it on ships ever since the announcement, just to get a feel for the downtime) to 2x EPtA1 so I've got that 40s up, 5s down, 40s up buff going to my Stealth Detection on him.
But yeah, chron mines, some subsystem targeting, tractor, grav well, SNB... he's a Sci in a Sci - but he's not a healer. With the coming of LoR and Fed Romulans cloaking - may even get more use out of him (I can switch out gear for him to do annoying stuff against Feds, but it's nowhere the same as the fun that can be had playing peekaboo with the guy that doesn't realize you can see him).
I definitely have more fun on my KDF Sci though, and here's his BOFF layout:
TSS1, TB2, VM1, GW3
PH1, HE2, PSW1
ST1, TR1
JS1, SS1
Yep, a Sci Hegh'ta with 4x Sci BOFFs. Oddly enough, out of my six main guys (not counting those two healers) - he's the guy most likely to toss somebody a heal, whether it's the ST, HE, or TSS. For the most part he doesn't need them, but it can be funny to troll some folks in Ker'rat or CnH with the "tanking BoP"...
I use him mainly to do two things: tank busting and buff busting. Sure, he can help clear spam - antagonize healers - or - help stop somebody from escaping; but tank and buff busting are just too much fun.
Folks talk about their decloak alphas and their insane damage. That's not really my thing. I'll fly around, watching guys beating on somebody while getting nowhere. Watch to see who's healing them - watch the buff/heal cycles...then decloak and spread the shenanigans so the guys that were beating on the one guy can hopefully knock off more than just that guy.
The other, man, it's just sheer trolling on my part. Sitting there cloaked, watching somebody start up their buff cycle to make a move on somebody...and...strip their buffs and park them - a nice present for the guy they were going to attack (well, it's PUGland - they probably still haven't noticed the guy yet - meh).
I don't think of Sci as a healer. I don't picture Sci boats as heal boats. I've never had the hate in zone chat on a Tac or Eng, whether in Escorts, Cruisers, or whatever...that I get from my Sci guys.
I suppose I look at it in the following way:
Tac - DPS
Eng - Heals
Sci - Shenanigans
Personally though, I really hate the magic wand healing stuff. I'd make the individual ships more self-reliant. Heck, most of my ships are more self-reliant because I PUG...I think my jaw would drop to the floor if I ever got a heal (course, it's rare that I do either - we're all trying to win the fight alone and going nowhere fast).
I said in one thread that I thought a couple of nifty changes to ExS and TSS would be the following:
Extend Shields actually...extended the shields around that friendly target. Damage taken would be applied to the shields of the person extending the shields.
Transfer Shield Strength actually...transferred shield strength. A person would sacrifice some of their shields for another.
As it stands, both are just magic wand shields peopled pulled out a top hat...meh.
But yeah, if they were moved to Eng and some Sci abilities were lowered in rank - that's more shenanigans I could get up to...there's definitely a bias there on my part, no doubt.
You know the first time I read your 'move around all the boff abilities' idea I thought it was crazy.
Then I thought about it.
And yeah it is still a crazy idea.
An awesome crazy good idea that is. Really if that were to happen, atleast the heals to Eng portion anyway, it would do exactly what you stated. Create opportunity cost. And that would be a good, ney, a great thing! The rest not sure yet.
The only thing I would do in combination would be to move the EPtW ability to Tac and EPtA to Sci. I know those are currently an engineers bread and butter but I think it would really help out the entire ensign slot issue a bit and help to make decisions on abilities even more difficult!
It's one of the reasons that I'm happy, in a sense, that Cryptic does take some time to address certain things.
It's one of the reasons that I'm unhappy that Cryptic addressed certain things too quickly without considering everything.
Still, there are certain things I just don't get why they haven't been addressed yet. The shifting powers isn't one...that's a major thing and I doubt it would be possible and in the end would likely hurt the game more than help it unless a bunch of things were addressed at the same time. It's more of a STO2 thing...but it can help to illustrate some of the issues in the game.
I agree I would say move them both... just don't duplicate them.
Or just being them universal powers, just anything actually that would improve engineering ensigns options. PH and tractor are most obvious choices as all ships should have them anyway.
Remove the current Emergency Powers and give them to everyone. They would act like a battery of some sort that would give you just power for let's say 30s, then it would need to replenish itself for 2:30 minutes. These would be just straight +power bonuses. +50 comes to my mind.
In the place of current EP powers, create Aux to subsystem powers. These powers would drain your aux power and increase your subsystem cap in return with some extra bonuses.
SO this combination would allow you for a short period of time, to have for example 175 in shields or weapons with all the benefits it gives.
Of course this would not benefit people that just wan't extra resistances while having all energy to weapons. It's more of enhancing your primary power in a critical moment for maximum effect.
I don't think so...
I like the idea that every star trek ship had a tractor... however I like to play video games.
Giving everyone a free 22% uptime hold... is just plain annoying... never mind the number of people that would run 2 copies for an extremely annoying 44% uptime... and then of course we have pets that can easily account for abother 20-40% uptime as well.
I like many laughed at TOR... we enjoyed calling it Stun Wars.
I for one don't want to have to make Hold Trek Jokes.
If only there was some mystical, magical ability your escort could get to break those tractors. Some kind of crazy super ability that not only broke it, but made you immune, gave you damage resist AND increased your damage. But pfft, who am I kidding, that would be CRAZY! :P
No but seriously, I actually kind of agree with you (shocked!)
Haha. For awhile, I had a aux2bat cruiser that ran Warp Plasma, DPB2 on Tricobalt mines (before nerf), and Tractor beam. The escorts that didn't carry APO were piping mad! :P
All hands! Prepare the popcorn and tinfoil hats!
Trust me friend... my escorts laugh at tractors.
Omega 50% up (those AP doffs are the real issue imo)... Evasive... EPTE... and if I really feel like It I swap in PH. (for 100% tractor immunity) Good luck trying to tractor my escort.
Of course I don't only play escorts. lol
My cruisers in general have PH perhaps... but not on all of em and not always slotted.
My sci ships... ya I often have a jam 1 or a PH 1...
Still they are beyond anoying.
Anyone that says they enjoy fighting a sci ship rocking dual tractor beams is a moron.
Lets give everyone dual tractors... its a great idea. lol It is funny we agree I guess... could you imagine everyone with at least 1 and lots of people with 2. lol it would be nuts.
Every escort laughs at tractors :P