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EPtX rebalance on tribble

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  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    cha0s1428 wrote: »
    Its actually funny that you prove my very sarcastic point.

    Every escort laughs at tractors :P

    Just agreeing seemed to easy. lol :)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Was talking in OPvP about some of the changes on Tribble and just dorking around there - kind of bored and looking for some sort of challenge for a massively flaky build. I hate how SB234's been nerfed - so many things seem to have been nerfed recently..meh.

    Somebody suggested running Terradome...so I did (the 46 one, not the VA one). The space part was tedious (I wanted a pause button so I could grab some more caffeine and go for a smoke). I had forgotten what ground was like...and...that was good for a laugh as I was slaughtered.

    I said I'd post the flaky build that I was using - so here it is (just the space stuff):

    Science Odyssey w/ Engineer Captain

    Traits - Accurate, Astrophysicist, EPS Manifold Efficiency, Efficient Captain, Elusive, Grace Under Fire, Techie, Warp Theorist

    Passives
    New Rom - Precision, Sensor Targeting Assault, Quantum Singularity Manipulation
    Omega - Omega Weapon Training, Omega Graviton Amplifier
    Nukara - none

    TT1, TS2, APO1
    THY1, FAW2

    EPtW1, RSP1, EWP1, AtS3
    EPtW1

    HE1, TSS2

    (Only 2x Human BOFFs, no Rom/Vet/Saurian/etc)

    DOFFs - SDO(BFI), Conn(TT), WCE(EPt), MAS(EWP), ME(Battery)

    Deflector - Borg Mk XII
    Engine - Borg Mk XII
    Warp Core - Common Mk X
    Shields - Borg Mk XII

    Weapons
    Fore - Omega Torp, Experimental Beam, 2x Romulan Beam Mk XII [Acc]x2
    Aft - Hyper-Plasma Torp, Cutting Beam, 2x Romulan Beam Mk XII [Acc]x2

    Consoles
    Tac - Borg, Theta
    Eng - 0Point, EPM, Tachyo, Neut Mk XI
    Sci - Aquarius, Chevron, Work Bees, FG Mk XI

    Devices - SFM, Eng Batt, Aux Batt, Empty

    Like I said, a flaky build (even for me). I wanted to look at two things - no EPtS and what EPtW could do. Okay, I cheated some - Sensor Analysis with the Sci Ody, but you can see the build is not going to offer much in damage with an Eng Captain...c'mon.

    I went back and did the VA version of the space part...and...er, it was easier. I'm wondering if it is a case that I was asleep and got them backwards. But no,UA 46 (Mk X rewards) and VA (Mk XI rewards).

    So how much actual PvP testing has been done by folks over on Tribble? I've seen a coupe of mentions of duels and like...but has anybody hit up Ker'rat with a couple of 5mans and fought it out over Cracked?

    There just seems to be a sense of...well...entitlement - being spoiled by what's been allowed and an inability to adapt.
  • mancommancom Member Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    How is your PVE experience relevant to this? We all know that one can do PVE with the weirdest builds and still succeed.
    1042856
  • maicake716maicake716 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    mancom wrote: »
    How is your PVE experience relevant to this? We all know that one can do PVE with the weirdest builds and still succeed.

    Quite right, in pve my gal-x actually kills things without an escort nearby. Same for my sci ship.
    mancom wrote: »
    Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
    Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
    Do you even Science Bro?
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    cha0s1428 wrote: »
    If only there was some mystical, magical ability your escort could get to break those tractors. Some kind of crazy super ability that not only broke it, but made you immune, gave you damage resist AND increased your damage. But pfft, who am I kidding, that would be CRAZY! :P

    No but seriously, I actually kind of agree with you (shocked!)

    Imagine if there was an even more powerful ability, some mystical, magical ability Sci captains could use to completely remove any mystical magical abilities the Escort has that would allow enough of a window to spike kill even a protected target in the space of a few seconds.



    Its called teamwork, and more people should look into it. I hear its OP.
  • woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Imagine if there was an even more powerful ability, some mystical, magical ability Sci captains could use to completely remove any mystical magical abilities the Escort has that would allow enough of a window to spike kill even a protected target in the space of a few seconds.



    Its called teamwork, and more people should look into it. I hear its OP.

    Who needs teamwork? Kirk didnt.
  • cha0s1428cha0s1428 Member Posts: 416 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Imagine if there was an even more powerful ability, some mystical, magical ability Sci captains could use to completely remove any mystical magical abilities the Escort has that would allow enough of a window to spike kill even a protected target in the space of a few seconds.



    Its called teamwork, and more people should look into it. I hear its OP.

    ?

    You're calling out the guy who is complaining about this change because it gimps my ability to be a TEAM focused healer?

    I mean, I was just joking around with my comment there, but I honestly cannot tell if you are kidding with me or not?
  • shookyangshookyang Member Posts: 1,122
    edited April 2013
    woodwhity wrote: »
    Who needs teamwork? Kirk didnt.
    Start Trek II: Wrath of Khan

    He needed someone to be cannon fodder.
  • edited April 2013
    This content has been removed.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    mancom wrote: »
    How is your PVE experience relevant to this? We all know that one can do PVE with the weirdest builds and still succeed.

    I asked the question in the post you replied to...that question being:
    So how much actual PvP testing has been done by folks over on Tribble? I've seen a coupe of mentions of duels and like...but has anybody hit up Ker'rat with a couple of 5mans and fought it out over Cracked?

    How many posts have you seen from folks talking about various things they've tested anything over on Ker'rat in regard to PvP? Most of it is spreadsheet warriors talk, no?

    What's the "default group" for a 5-man? 2 Tac/3 Sci. 3 Sci, eh? So how many targets even have EPtS up when they die anyway?

    The thing that mainly kept that ship alive was the various Borg procs, Tac Team, and manual shield distribution. I might have used RSP once in each. I only used RSF once for both. TSS/AtS/HE here and there. These are things folks have discussed as being the problem. I didn't even have the Passive defensives - which would have made it even easier.

    Offensively, no Tac Consoles...2x EPtW1 and Sensor Scan.

    I ran 100/50/25/25 power throughout without changing. But for the most part I was at 125/125/125/120ish...because that's how dorked up power is - and that's with perhaps 2-3 EPS uses over both encounters.

    That's PvE. That's why I'm asking what sort of testing folks have done over on Tribble. Have people put together two 5-man PUGmades to hit up Cracked over Ker'rat for some dueling?

    I run 8 guys. This is their EPtX situation:

    2x Healers that run 2x EPtS (100% uptime)
    Plasma Spammer that runs 2x EPtS (100% uptime)
    3x DPS that run EPtS/EPtW (~99% uptime)
    Sci that runs EPtS & EPtA (used as needed)
    Sci BoP that doesn't run any EPtX

    But you know what - outside of the the two Healers - I found that everybody else that did run EPtS could get by without it. Those two Healers in their Cruisers...it was just bad. I mean, it was bad...meh.

    But guess what? Those guys are looking at being able to run 2x EPtS with a 5s (or less) gap every 40s. That will be easy to cover. Somebody else might need to cover their own heals or somebody else might need to do some crosshealing for somebody else with split targets during those 5s (or less).

    The attitude of my post there, yeah, it definitely changed toward the end. We were having a simple discussion in OPvP about how broken many things were, how nerfed many things in PvE were, how it affects what Cryptic is doing, and how that affects PvP.

    Then somebody made a comment about Sci Captains in regard to the discussion on whether Tac abilities should buff non-weapon damage. It pissed me off. They said Sci Captains were butthurt and feeling entitled. It blew my mind. There is no more entitled Career in STO than the Tac. There is no more entitled Ship in STO than the Escort. Even the Tac Cruiser Captains will groan about the Tac Escort Captains.

    So yeah, I ended with the spoiled comment...and face it, reading through so many of the comments about so many things - it's got to be what Cryptic sees...spoiled kiddies.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not happy with the changes either - but mainly because it only introduces a 5s or less gap for the 2x EPtX folks while leaving the 1x EPtX or EPtX/EPtY folks with a 10-25s gap. If the idea was to reduce the 100% uptime on 2x EPtS and have folks use more EPtX abilities...then the change is epic fail.
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    woodwhity wrote: »
    Who needs teamwork? Kirk didnt.

    Kirk was a hero if not a demigod (by AD&D standards) due to the huge experience he got for fighting everything from the power that lies at the center of the galaxy to minor gods like Apollo.
    He was what we in the old days called a Monty Hall level character and had the skills or luck to go with it.
    Thats all I can figure.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Now of course, the real pain can't be tested yet. I'll admit that.

    Picture the KDF allied Mogai, eh?

    Elite Fleet Disruptors (DBB & DHC/Turrets)
    Tet Glider
    Plasmonic Leech
    DEM w/ Marion
    Borg + KCB for OWA
    Nukara Rep DEM
    Romulan Shield Leech
    Etc, etc, etc.

    Heck, even the twisted guy zipping around in a Turret boat just leeching. What about the FAW spam boat?

    There's going to be all sorts of stuff that simply won't have the time to be tested.

    So yeah, maybe there's no point in testing anything at all. I know the doom 'n gloom PvP is dead stuff is way too melodramatic...but we could sit here and say that or try to test as much as we can. Try to adapt the best we can.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    woodwhity wrote: »
    Who needs teamwork? Kirk didnt.
    bitemepwe wrote: »
    Kirk was a hero if not a demigod (by AD&D standards) due to the huge experience he got for fighting everything from the power that lies at the center of the galaxy to minor gods like Apollo.
    He was what we in the old days called a Monty Hall level character and had the skills or luck to go with it.
    Thats all I can figure.

    Kirk did have a team. He had a great supporting cast. He couldn't have done all the things he did without them.

    Sure, sure, maybe he could have done 99% of it by himself - he is The Kirk (which puts him so far ahead of the other Captains, I'm not sure how there can be any debate)...but still, he had a team. :)
  • seekerkorhilseekerkorhil Member Posts: 472
    edited April 2013
    I still think people are going a bit overboard with the complaining about EPTS.

    For the record there is no 10 second downtime that people seem to think dooms them all to death. It is 2 separate 5 second downtimes.

    That is a HUGE difference. Especially in a game where you can heal yourself to full hull and shields in 15 seconds without too much difficulty.

    It is also a LOT harder for the enemy to time their alpha for a 5 second window than a 10 second one. AND you have tac team for that time.

    Seriously, its not the end of the world. I still don't like what it does to cruisers with regards to the lack of ensign engineering power choice, but that is not what people (read: all the escort pilots) are complaining about.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I still think people are going a bit overboard with the complaining about EPTS.

    For the record there is no 10 second downtime that people seem to think dooms them all to death. It is 2 separate 5 second downtimes.

    That is a HUGE difference. Especially in a game where you can heal yourself to full hull and shields in 15 seconds without too much difficulty.

    It is also a LOT harder for the enemy to time their alpha for a 5 second window than a 10 second one. AND you have tac team for that time.

    Seriously, its not the end of the world. I still don't like what it does to cruisers with regards to the lack of ensign engineering power choice, but that is not what people (read: all the escort pilots) are complaining about.

    2x EPtX: 20s, 20s, 5s gap, 20s, 20s, 5s gap, 20s, 20s, 5s gap
    1x EPtX: 20s, 10-25s gap, 20s, 10-25s gap, 20s, 10-25s gap
    EPtX/EPtY: 2x (1x EPtX) gaps. There will be a 10-25s gap between each EPtX and a 10-25s gap between each EPtY even though there will be periods where you have both EPtX and EPtY active.

    The 5s gap can be reduced.
    You can't go below the 10s gap.
  • ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I still think people are going a bit overboard with the complaining about EPTS.
    The problem with EPtS was already corrected and nobody is complaining about it anymore. We are onto another problem now, which is the fact that you cannot mix EPtX and EPtY at the same time with these changes. Since all ships with Engineer captains must use EPtW to get a significant increase in damage (especially in beam cruisers where DEM doesnt do anything), *and* they must also still use EPtS for the same shield repairs that everybody else is using, this is a major problem.
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I still think people are going a bit overboard with the complaining about EPTS.

    For the record there is no 10 second downtime that people seem to think dooms them all to death. It is 2 separate 5 second downtimes.

    That is a HUGE difference. Especially in a game where you can heal yourself to full hull and shields in 15 seconds without too much difficulty.

    It is also a LOT harder for the enemy to time their alpha for a 5 second window than a 10 second one. AND you have tac team for that time.

    Seriously, its not the end of the world. I still don't like what it does to cruisers with regards to the lack of ensign engineering power choice, but that is not what people (read: all the escort pilots) are complaining about.

    * 1f you just use EPtS, and not any of the newly buffed other varients of the ability.

    what is every cruiser, except like the odyssey maybe, supposed to do with 4 to 5 eng abilities at or below TL level? how are they supposed to do damage at all, not like they really did any to begin with, without EPtW and overcapoing weapons power? even if they used the new version the 10 second gap with the long damage buff is worse then the old 30 power buff for their pressure damage, and they would have that 10 second gap for both EPtW and EPtS.

    people arent making a big enough deal about it actually. oh and EPtE is now better then APO, and thats if you couldn't use it back to back.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    what is every cruiser, except like the odyssey maybe, supposed to do with 4 to 5 eng abilities at or below TL level? how are they supposed to do damage at all, not like they really did any to begin with, without EPtW and overcapoing weapons power? even if they used the new version the 10 second gap with the long damage buff is worse then the old 30 power buff for their pressure damage, and they would have that 10 second gap for both EPtW and EPtS.

    Yep, not enough folks are talking about the "buff" to burst and the "nerf" to sustained resulting in a "nerf" to overall that's taking place with EPtW...meh.
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    For the record I was perfectly fine with the original implementation where everyone got hit with a 10 second gap. I absolutely despise the current implementation.

    Why? Because everything is relative firstly, and secondly the 'flow' as I call it.

    The first change would have effected escorts much more than cruisers on the survivability aspect. You can deny this all you want but it be true. A cruiser can pack enough defenses to survive that hole without too much problem and believe it or not an escort with it's higher damage mitigation capacity gets a larger boost from EPtS being active in the first place.

    The current implementation however actually :eek:buffs:eek: escorts as they get the heal more often which just so happens to be more effective on them than any other ship and cruisers get :mad:nerfed:mad: as they now pay a penalty for running two different EPtX abilities.

    Now the flow thing. This is more of a PvE thing because one flies much differently in PvP. Simply put the vast majority of abilities are either a 15 second (shared) cooldown or 30 second (shared) cooldown aside from 'big' abilities (GW, RSP, etc) and that allows one to have a simply 'mash the abilities' every 15 seconds experience and focus other things if they choose. Abilities that do not follow that pattern such as dual A2SIF are promptly ignored by me as I find them more annoying than useful personally. So instead I roll with singe copy. But yeah the current EPtS I already know will harm my 'user experience' in a very intangible way.
  • borgresearcherborgresearcher Member Posts: 451 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    The current implementation however actually buffs escorts as they get the heal more often which just so happens to be more effective on them than any other ship and cruisers get nerfed as they now pay a penalty for running two different EPtX abilities.

    i guess that's the dev's goal.

    as ddks said, what will ships with 4 or 5 eng stations below ltc do ?
  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    i guess that's the dev's goal.

    as ddks said, what will ships with 4 or 5 eng stations below ltc do ?

    The same as before? suck ? :D
    "Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
  • borgresearcherborgresearcher Member Posts: 451 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    even more unfortunately ... =X
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    jheinig was on opvp mentioning talking to system guys at lunch and him hearing that the EPt change is part of a larger set of changes we haven't seen yet. thats right, be worried, be much more worried. i mean at this point they could fix it still, undo the silly gaps. more changes? thats more permanent damage.
  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    jheinig was on opvp mentioning talking to system guys at lunch and him hearing that the EPt change is part of a larger set of changes we haven't seen yet. thats right, be worried, be much more worried. i mean at this point they could fix it still, undo the silly gaps. more changes? thats more permanent damage.

    Don't scare us dontdrunkimshoot. Now I'm much more afraid than before.
    "Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
  • thegrimcorsairthegrimcorsair Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I'm surprised anyone wouldn't think such a large change to EPtX wouldn't be the harbinger of a sea-change in the mechanics of the game. :confused:
    If you feel Keel'el's effect is well designed, please, for your own safety, be very careful around shallow pools of water.
  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I'm surprised anyone wouldn't think such a large change to EPtX wouldn't be the harbinger of a sea-change in the mechanics of the game. :confused:

    One would think that happens before they introduce new ships, not after. So you can get the idea how they will work.
    "Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
  • zarathos1978zarathos1978 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Why permanent damage? They may actually fix the game. I mean - the gap is not bad now, it will be even less if they do something about overhealing and thus needed overdamage that is present.

    It may be actually good... at least I hope so.
  • mancommancom Member Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    jheinig was on opvp mentioning talking to system guys at lunch and him hearing that the EPt change is part of a larger set of changes we haven't seen yet.
    That sounds really bad.
    1042856
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    f2pdrakron wrote: »
    They corrected because a 100% uptime should never happen, that makes it a passive always on ability that just requires you to press a button every 30 seconds.
    I have no problem with powers that last 100 % of the time if you cycle you instances.
    I have only a problem with powers that are mandatory to cycle for 100 % uptime. For every ship class. That's just bad design.

    But changing a power from being able to do this to not being able to do this doesn'T necessarily fix things. There was a reason why it was deemed mandatory.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Why permanent damage? They may actually fix the game. I mean - the gap is not bad now, it will be even less if they do something about overhealing and thus needed overdamage that is present.

    It may be actually good... at least I hope so.

    Their fix to the EPtS issue was to implement a desired 11% gap in coverage. That amount was chosen in a very, from what I can tell, arbitrary manner. Additionally the original modification they did to the skill to reach stated goal missed the mark because they didn't know how the cooldown worked in the first place.

    Additionally they have not made any mention of a change to the underlying issue of why EPtS is so stupidly powerful from the sustain perspective which would require a good hard look at shield power to begin with.

    Finally I challenge anyone to mention a recent change done by the system team that resulted in improved balance across the board instead of simply changing what is OP and what is UP.

    Are they good at nerfing things into the ground? Yup. Are they good at buffing things threw the roof? Yup. Balancing? Nope. So it just means I have to change my builds to take advantage of the 'new hotness' instead of seeing an actual increase in viable options. That is bad.

    Sorry, I'm grumpy today.
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