Didn't Sela get snatched by the Iconians against her will in the Romulan FE? I know that the Romulan story takes place before that FE, so it's not a continuity thing. I'm just surprised she'd be allied with them, but apparently she'll get backstabbed. I don't remember the details too well, but IIRC it didn't feel like she was being rescued.
Yes Sela did get taken by the Iconians. But the thing to remeber is that the Romulan Episodic missions all take place BEFORE Sela gets taken. That means we'll be dealing with Haveek. He's not dead yet as your Romulan character is leveling up.
CBS said ages ago that those shows are too old to be canon anymore. 22nd and 23rd century storylines don't fit the IP anymore.
There's a reason CBS can't manage to find Trek success over the past decade+.
I'm holding out hope that in 20+ years, a new set of executives less intent on spreading some PC nonsense can do something interesting with the IP.
In the meantime, I'll probably look into box sets of TOS and TNG, maybe DS9 and even Voyager. I fully expect any series to come across even more poorly than Enterprise did.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
It wasn't divided in TOS. And it wasn't in Enterprise, either. Both shows are more canon than STO.
In TOS it may not have been divided per se, but remember in the TOS episode "Balance of Terror"; there were a number of exchanges inferring there were some divisions in the ranks:
- There's the fact that the Romulan Commander, while duty bound to carry out the Praetor's orders, had the following exchange with his older Centurion comrade and a subordinate (which he disciplined):
DECIUS: My Commander sent for Decius.
COMMANDER: A message was dispatched. You've broken the rule of silence.
DECIUS: Only in code, Commander. To inform our Praetor of this glorious mission.
COMMANDER: Your carelessness might have ended this glorious mission. You're reduced two steps in rank. Return to post.
CENTURION: Take care, Commander. He has friends, and friends of his kind mean power. And power is danger.
COMMANDER: Danger and I are old companions.
CENTURION: We've seen a hundred campaigns together, and still I do not understand you.
COMMANDER: I think you do. No need to tell you what happens when we reach home with proof of the Earthmen's weakness. And we will have proof. The Earth commander will follow. He must. When he attacks, we will destroy him. Our gift to the homeland, another war.
CENTURION: If we are the strong, isn't this the signal for war?
COMMANDER: Must it always be so? How many comrades have we lost in this way?
CENTURION: Our portion, Commander, is obedience.
COMMANDER: Obedience. Duty. Death and more death. Soon even enough for the Praetor's taste. Centurion, I find myself wishing for destruction before we can return. Worry not. Like you, I am too well-trained in my duty to permit it. Continue evasive manoeuvres. Now, back to the first course.
So, even in the TOS era, the RSE wasn't always of 'one thought' per se
As for 'Enterprise' in the episodes 'United' and 'Babel One' we again saw politicians clashing with the Romulan military and it cost the Empire two prototype ships, and set the stage for the founding of the UFP, as the incident brought together (with the help of Earthlings) three races (Andorian, Tellerite, and Vulcan) that the Romulans had successfully been manipulating against each other. It also cost them a highly placed Romulan operative; whom they basically hung out to dry in the end. Hardly a sign of solid unity or purpose of action within the Empire.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Well, we are emmbers of some other hippy faction, and then we join D'Tan's hippy faction.
Then we get to choose between joining the Federation hippy faction, or becoming Klingon slaves, heh.
And this is the problem with these PC-heavy plots; the content hasn't even released and we've basically experienced 99% of it, if only because it's so horribly generic and has been used elsewhere, including in other Trek material.
Hardly a sign of solid unity or purpose of action within the Empire.
But isn't that what we're asking for? Duplicity, subterfuge and deceit? This Romulan Republic seems to embody none of that, and stands in sharp contrast to the whipping boy that is the Tal'Shiar.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
And this is the problem with these PC-heavy plots; the content hasn't even released and we've basically experienced 99% of it, if only because it's so horribly generic and has been used elsewhere, including in other Trek material.
RSE is 100x more interesting.
And how would the RSE be any less generic?
An Empire wanting to control the Galaxy, making a pack with a more powerful race to gain superiority ....that too has been done both in and out of Trek.
An Empire wanting to control the Galaxy, making a pack with a more powerful race to gain superiority ....that too has been done both in and out of Trek.
These people think being "evil" is automatically cool and interesting. It can be, if done well, but so can being an oppressed people in revolution.
An Empire wanting to control the Galaxy, making a pack with a more powerful race to gain superiority ....that too has been done both in and out of Trek.
Well, compared to the existing player factions in STO, yes. I do think it would be less generic. What we have herd of the Rommie faction so far leads me to believe that they are much more sanitized than the old Romulans, which lends itself to a generic-ness all its own, while at the same time lacking in many of the attributes attributed to Romulans.
The same could have been accomplished by making a 'playable Federation/KDF Romulan' for the Zen store and would have left the Romulan faction unmutilated.
These people think being "evil" is automatically cool and interesting. It can be, if done well, but so can being an oppressed people in revolution.
Odd coming from someone with that Username, or are you a Drizzt fan?
Again, this could easily be accomplished through a zen store playable species unlock, (faucilitating RP as a 'good' Romulan) while still keeping the Romulan faction, romulan.
An Empire wanting to control the Galaxy, making a pack with a more powerful race to gain superiority ....that too has been done both in and out of Trek.
I wouldn't disagree that the whole Iconian thing sucks, too.
It can be, if done well, but so can being an oppressed people in revolution.
There's no revolution. These are refugees. In-fighting would have been perfectly in keeping with the RSE stereotype. Splintering off a "good guy" group is entirely unnecessary, and outright dull when you consider that Trek is already dominated by such a group.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
Well, compared to the existing player factions in STO, yes. I do think it would be less generic. What we have herd of the Rommie faction so far leads me to believe that they are much more sanitized than the old Romulans, which lends itself to a generic-ness all its own, while at the same time lacking in many of the attributes attributed to Romulans.
The same could have been accomplished by making a 'playable Federation/KDF Romulan' for the Zen store and would have left the Romulan faction unmutilated.
Still does not make a RSE unique and less generic just the same old bad guys in games and movies and shows we see all the Time...hell RSE allying with a Superior species was done in Star Trek Armada....by Sela.
There's no revolution. These are refugees. In-fighting would have been perfectly in keeping with the RSE stereotype. Splintering off a "good guy" group is entirely unnecessary, and outright dull when you consider that Trek is already dominated by such a group.
You will be the one to reshape an empire. Gather allies, go undercover and find the proof that will rally your people to revolt.
Together, you will rise up against an oppressive regime and demand freedom. You will fight for your people.
People do not like being oppressed. Why is this so difficult for people to grasp? I thought Star Trek was supposed to be more realistic and humanistic than Star Wars?
Still does not make a RSE unique and less generic just the same old bad guys in games and movies and shows we see all the Time...hell RSE allying with a Superior species was done in Star Trek Armada....by Sela.
People do not like being oppressed. Why is this so difficult for people to grasp? I thought Star Trek was supposed to be more realistic and humanistic than Star Wars?
The solution I gave would allow fans of the 'generic' (we'll just have to disagree on that one) Romulan Space Empire to have their faction, while folks who want to play defectors and reunificationists could have fun flying around as a KDF/FED Romulan. Everyone's happy!
The solution I gave would allow fans of the 'generic' (we'll just have to disagree on that one) Romulan Space Empire to have their faction, while folks who want to play defectors and reunificationists could have fun flying around as a KDF/FED Romulan. Everyone's happy!
Or they could sell the RSE...but they won't because they don't do that kind of stuff....if they did then this expansion would cost money.
But they have no problems selling uniforms, and ships with IRW and stuff like that...so there is that to look forward to.
The solution I gave would allow fans of the 'generic' (we'll just have to disagree on that one) Romulan Space Empire to have their faction, while folks who want to play defectors and reunificationists could have fun flying around as a KDF/FED Romulan. Everyone's happy!
Hardly. Wanting to overthrow the oppressive regime does not make somebody a "defector" or "reunificationist". It makes somebody a revolutionary and arguably a traitor, but they can still be proud to be Romulan.
Hardly. Wanting to overthrow the oppressive regime does not make somebody a "defector" or "reunificationist". It makes somebody a revolutionary and arguably a traitor, but they can still be proud to be Romulan.
Hardly. Wanting to overthrow the oppressive regime does not make somebody a "defector" or "reunificationist". It makes somebody a revolutionary and arguably a traitor, but they can still be proud to be Romulan.
The Romulan Star Empire was for most part a oligarchy, the Tal'Shiar was not going around killing citizens for kicks, it was something when done was done in secrecy and not raising much attention if it was done.
Most citizens of the Empire didnt care because they weren't being oppressed, not being able to vote in party A or party B does not make them oppressed.
Uh.
TROI: We ensure the loyalty of the people. Do you believe the Empire would be better off without our protection?
TORETH: Protection? From what? How was the Empire threatened by the words of an old man, a devoted citizen who merely tried to speak his mind? How did the Tal Shiar protect the Empire by dragging him, my father, out of his home in the middle of the night?
TROI: Clearly, your father was a traitor.
TORETH: No. He was just an idealistic old man. I never saw him again.
Romulans were regularly shown to live in terror of the Tal Shiar. Dragging people out of their beds in the middle of the night for speaking their mind is oppression. This is indisputable.
Sela came back with her allies and became Empress. The Tal Shiar, like all other political players, had to adjust to this reality. The Tal Shiar still supports the traditional RSE hierarchy, though they're a strong player in any political machinations. They still answer to the leader of the empire, even if they have their own agenda. Sela's not going to shy away from using all the tools at her disposal to harass her favorite scapegoats, the Unificationists.
As for dealings with the Iconians, I don't think this means Sela was involved with Hobus. The connection is that she now works with Hakeev, who used to work for Taris. So it makes sense that he might have experience with Iconians and would propose further dealings. He might not have even revealed his entire history with them, and so he might have gone farther in his service to them than even Sela intended.
Take a look at my Foundry missions! Conjoined, Re-emergence, and . . .
* Three 'factions' of Romulans: Survivors (what the player starts as), Romulan Republic (D'Tan's faction), and the Tal Shiar. Interestingly enough, the Romulan Star Empire seems to be used interchangeably with Tal Shiar.
As much as I enjoy the Path to 2409, not every player will have veteran player's background in reading it. Especially, since it's detailed entries aren't in any one place. I think this expansion is really about both old and new player's better understanding the current state of affairs. Before taking opportunity to move forward.
Once that happens, my question becomes, what future stories can player's look forward to which might suggest a more formal restoration of the Empire as most are familiar with?
From the hip, I don't see the Romulan Republic folding back into the Romulan Empire anymore than I would see the KDF folded into the Federation. But the Empress successfully ruling the Romulan Empire, I could see happening. All due to Denise Crosby's participation.
* Tal Shiar is led by Sela. In previously established material, Sela has been at odds with them, is this a possible retcon? It is also almost explicitly stated that Sela is working with the Iconians.
I'm going to say, yes. I agree that the more detailed Path to 2409 entries make it pretty clear that the Tal Shiar usually stand apart from previous Praetor's. And, as of 2408, an Empress. Cloaked Intentions would be the logical place for us to learn Sela had a breakthrough of some kind with the Tal Shiar. And I'm actually fine with that. In fact, this would make Cloaked Intentions that much deeper a story than it already is.
* The Players start off as a Romulan farmer on a backwater planet, (tutorial?) and later join the Romulan Republic, and then join either the KDF or FED at level 10.
I'm fine with that set-up as well. The details of the Path of 2409 offer suggestions of Romulan colony worlds swapping allegiances over the past thirty years as they see fit. My guess is a previously mentioned colony world of Talvath. At some point, it considered applying to join the Federation. It sometimes take forever for such applications to be approved. Sometimes not at all. My guess is that the membership hasn't really happened.
(/\) Exploring Star Trek Online Since July 2008 (/\)
The farmer stuff is as generic as one can get for the start of the hero's journey, and that's worth being skeptical about, but all this whining about starting as a farmer because it's not "heroic" or "evil" enough is just silly.
Trying to generate a hero's journey, at all, is worth being skeptical about.
No one wants to start as a Romulan Republic farmer. Everyone wanted to start as a RSE grunt. Who cares if the farmer is good or evil? Starting as a farmer at all is completely unexpected, unnecessary, and seems like really lazy writing.
As far a Sela being the leader of the Tal'Shiar, that is covered in one of the ST books, but I can't remember the name of the book, but that's prolly where Cryptic got the idea from.
As far a Sela being the leader of the Tal'Shiar, that is covered in one of the ST books, but I can't for the life of remember the name of the book, but that's prolly where Cryptic got the idea from.
I wouldn't go off the books, IMO. They are almost always contradictory with STO, and often with each other. According to the books, Sela should be *dead*. Heck, according to the books, we shouldn't have any borg.
That might be true, but I have not seen any books contradict that Sela is the leader of the Tal'Shiar.
And as for us not having any Borg, well... The Destiny books did away with the Borg thanks to the Caeliar and no small part to Captain Hernandez of the NX-02, Columbia.
As for the Borg in this game, well the Borg is one of the most iconic ST bad guys, so I can't really blame Cryptic for their explanation as to why we have Borg in STO.
That might be true, but I have not seen any books contradict that Sela is the leader of the Tal'Shiar.
And as for us not having any Borg, well... The Destiny books did away with the Borg thanks to the Caeliar and no small part to Captain Hernandez of the NX-02, Columbia.
As for the Borg in this game, well the Borg is one of the most iconic ST bad guys, so I can't really blame Cryptic for their explanation as to why we have Borg in STO.
Well, according to 'canon' sela died in 2384 from suicide in her prison cell, a year after being appointed head of the tal'Shiar. Both incidents having occured before the timeframe in which STO takes place. I wouldn't put to much importance on that particular simularity. I think the answer is a bit more complicated-Cryptic seems to be taking the RSE further in the direction of 'villains' and making the RR more 'federation-like' in order to make players mroe comfortable playing Romulans by havign a more 'heroic' faction to play as with a starkly evil enemy to fight. Making Sela the head of the Tal'Shiar instead of opposed to it, while playing up the oppression angle of the RSE (contradicting Sela's behaviour from the Path to 2409) works to further this goal.
Comments
Yes Sela did get taken by the Iconians. But the thing to remeber is that the Romulan Episodic missions all take place BEFORE Sela gets taken. That means we'll be dealing with Haveek. He's not dead yet as your Romulan character is leveling up.
But I don't blame Cryptic, because I think this is where we were headed regardless of STO or JJTrek.
There's a reason CBS can't manage to find Trek success over the past decade+.
I'm holding out hope that in 20+ years, a new set of executives less intent on spreading some PC nonsense can do something interesting with the IP.
In the meantime, I'll probably look into box sets of TOS and TNG, maybe DS9 and even Voyager. I fully expect any series to come across even more poorly than Enterprise did.
Then we get to choose between joining the Federation hippy faction, or becoming Klingon slaves, heh.
In TOS it may not have been divided per se, but remember in the TOS episode "Balance of Terror"; there were a number of exchanges inferring there were some divisions in the ranks:
- There's the fact that the Romulan Commander, while duty bound to carry out the Praetor's orders, had the following exchange with his older Centurion comrade and a subordinate (which he disciplined):
So, even in the TOS era, the RSE wasn't always of 'one thought' per se
As for 'Enterprise' in the episodes 'United' and 'Babel One' we again saw politicians clashing with the Romulan military and it cost the Empire two prototype ships, and set the stage for the founding of the UFP, as the incident brought together (with the help of Earthlings) three races (Andorian, Tellerite, and Vulcan) that the Romulans had successfully been manipulating against each other. It also cost them a highly placed Romulan operative; whom they basically hung out to dry in the end. Hardly a sign of solid unity or purpose of action within the Empire.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
RSE is 100x more interesting.
But isn't that what we're asking for? Duplicity, subterfuge and deceit? This Romulan Republic seems to embody none of that, and stands in sharp contrast to the whipping boy that is the Tal'Shiar.
And how would the RSE be any less generic?
An Empire wanting to control the Galaxy, making a pack with a more powerful race to gain superiority ....that too has been done both in and out of Trek.
These people think being "evil" is automatically cool and interesting. It can be, if done well, but so can being an oppressed people in revolution.
Well, compared to the existing player factions in STO, yes. I do think it would be less generic. What we have herd of the Rommie faction so far leads me to believe that they are much more sanitized than the old Romulans, which lends itself to a generic-ness all its own, while at the same time lacking in many of the attributes attributed to Romulans.
The same could have been accomplished by making a 'playable Federation/KDF Romulan' for the Zen store and would have left the Romulan faction unmutilated.
Odd coming from someone with that Username, or are you a Drizzt fan?
Again, this could easily be accomplished through a zen store playable species unlock, (faucilitating RP as a 'good' Romulan) while still keeping the Romulan faction, romulan.
There's no revolution. These are refugees. In-fighting would have been perfectly in keeping with the RSE stereotype. Splintering off a "good guy" group is entirely unnecessary, and outright dull when you consider that Trek is already dominated by such a group.
Still does not make a RSE unique and less generic just the same old bad guys in games and movies and shows we see all the Time...hell RSE allying with a Superior species was done in Star Trek Armada....by Sela.
People do not like being oppressed. Why is this so difficult for people to grasp? I thought Star Trek was supposed to be more realistic and humanistic than Star Wars?
The solution I gave would allow fans of the 'generic' (we'll just have to disagree on that one) Romulan Space Empire to have their faction, while folks who want to play defectors and reunificationists could have fun flying around as a KDF/FED Romulan. Everyone's happy!
Or they could sell the RSE...but they won't because they don't do that kind of stuff....if they did then this expansion would cost money.
But they have no problems selling uniforms, and ships with IRW and stuff like that...so there is that to look forward to.
Hardly. Wanting to overthrow the oppressive regime does not make somebody a "defector" or "reunificationist". It makes somebody a revolutionary and arguably a traitor, but they can still be proud to be Romulan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbOOTaWgFaM
At any rate, this is irrelevent since by your definition the RR are already traitors and revolutionaries:
A Romulan worth his/her green blood would bombard those people from orbit for horrible singing in that video.;)
I know right, my ears are bleeding.
I honestly find it baffling some of the things that darkelfofficer associates with Romulans...apparently this is one of them.
The Romulans wouldn't bombard them though! Who would work in the Dilithium mines if they did that?
Uh.
Romulans were regularly shown to live in terror of the Tal Shiar. Dragging people out of their beds in the middle of the night for speaking their mind is oppression. This is indisputable.
Sela came back with her allies and became Empress. The Tal Shiar, like all other political players, had to adjust to this reality. The Tal Shiar still supports the traditional RSE hierarchy, though they're a strong player in any political machinations. They still answer to the leader of the empire, even if they have their own agenda. Sela's not going to shy away from using all the tools at her disposal to harass her favorite scapegoats, the Unificationists.
As for dealings with the Iconians, I don't think this means Sela was involved with Hobus. The connection is that she now works with Hakeev, who used to work for Taris. So it makes sense that he might have experience with Iconians and would propose further dealings. He might not have even revealed his entire history with them, and so he might have gone farther in his service to them than even Sela intended.
Conjoined, Re-emergence, and . . .
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
As much as I enjoy the Path to 2409, not every player will have veteran player's background in reading it. Especially, since it's detailed entries aren't in any one place. I think this expansion is really about both old and new player's better understanding the current state of affairs. Before taking opportunity to move forward.
Once that happens, my question becomes, what future stories can player's look forward to which might suggest a more formal restoration of the Empire as most are familiar with?
From the hip, I don't see the Romulan Republic folding back into the Romulan Empire anymore than I would see the KDF folded into the Federation. But the Empress successfully ruling the Romulan Empire, I could see happening. All due to Denise Crosby's participation.
I'm going to say, yes. I agree that the more detailed Path to 2409 entries make it pretty clear that the Tal Shiar usually stand apart from previous Praetor's. And, as of 2408, an Empress. Cloaked Intentions would be the logical place for us to learn Sela had a breakthrough of some kind with the Tal Shiar. And I'm actually fine with that. In fact, this would make Cloaked Intentions that much deeper a story than it already is.
I'm fine with that set-up as well. The details of the Path of 2409 offer suggestions of Romulan colony worlds swapping allegiances over the past thirty years as they see fit. My guess is a previously mentioned colony world of Talvath. At some point, it considered applying to join the Federation. It sometimes take forever for such applications to be approved. Sometimes not at all. My guess is that the membership hasn't really happened.
Trying to generate a hero's journey, at all, is worth being skeptical about.
No one wants to start as a Romulan Republic farmer. Everyone wanted to start as a RSE grunt. Who cares if the farmer is good or evil? Starting as a farmer at all is completely unexpected, unnecessary, and seems like really lazy writing.
You seem to be missing the point here.
Case in point; really lazy writing. So lazy that they're not even the first to use it within the IP.
There's gotta be fan fiction better than this that they could have paid bottom dollar for and used.
And as for us not having any Borg, well... The Destiny books did away with the Borg thanks to the Caeliar and no small part to Captain Hernandez of the NX-02, Columbia.
As for the Borg in this game, well the Borg is one of the most iconic ST bad guys, so I can't really blame Cryptic for their explanation as to why we have Borg in STO.
Theres no good ever come out of a revolution
Reign of Terror anyone?
Murder of the Tsar and his entire family?
The American Revolution went pretty well for a while there.
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
Common misconception
Tens of thousands of people died
Slavery continued longer than it should have
A civil war followed on
Starvation and anarchy
The American revolt was pointless
independence would have come in time anyway.
Rebellion is usually not the best option
Look at starwars
entire planets laid waste because a few people did not want to pay tax