And really... if you go to a gate's side, and stay 8 kms away from it, it can not hit you.
If you did not even know that very, very, very basic thing, then how could anyone take your word for anything?
I told my fleet about this thread, they all laughed hard at how badly people can fail.
Especially the cruiser pilots laughed the hardest of all.
One of them said :
"These people always whine, they just want a ship that tanks best, deal the greatest damage, and win every fight by pressing the space bar."
And she was damn right.
Oh yeah, and you tanked the tactical cube in a shuttle. Check that! You tanked 5 tactical cube, Donatra, the borg queen, and the assimilated carrier in a shuttle. I find that totally believeable. Like all yoru posts.
Of course I believe you. All your posts in this and other whine threads have been totally legit, so why would I doubt anything you say ?
Coming from Geko? I wouldn't read it as players should learn to play. I could go further in detail as to why that's a bad interpolation, but I shouldn't have to if you're a PVP player.
If you did not even know that very, very, very basic thing, then how could anyone take your word for anything?
I'd cut that person some slack since Geko feels Flow Capacitors help offset beams' energy drain.
It is indeed lovely to be able to fly a cruiser well.
I pity people who can not do that
Why should I cut him slack ? Its a basic thing that he missed.
I mean, I would cut him slack if he would simply make a thread about competitive pvp and pve cruiser builds, asking for help there to better his build/tactics and so on, instead of whining here like a little kid who can't always win while he/she plays in the school.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
It is indeed lovely to be able to fly a cruiser well.
I pity people who can not do that
Why should I cut him slack ? Its a basic thing that he missed.
I mean, I would cut him slack if he would simply make a thread about competitive pvp and pve cruiser builds, asking for help there to better his build/tactics and so on, instead of whining here like a little kid who can't always win while he/she plays in the school.
You're welcome to try my cruiser on if you so wish... If you are so confident that I am an incompetent player half my age then you wont mind proving yourself right will you?
These things get hella vicious when people get personal. Throw a god dang chair and light it up!
Anywho, when it comes down to it people shouldn't yell things like learn to play and noob and nerf and all that fun stuff we yell when we have nothing constructive but destructive to say.
Both sides are right but also both sides are wrong. Lol why people think that cruisers should be in one role and sci's in one role and escorts in one role is beyond me.
There is no topical difference between these ships. You can make an escort into a cruiser a cruiser into a sci and a sci into an escort with how customizable this game is so all of this is just moot.
If you take away DHC's then what kinda argument do you have? None. What would be the difference between an escort and a cruiser then? Then would the Cruiser be Op because it has such a thick hull and shields? Would this OP escort if it used the same beams and equipments as the cruiser be OP? No, their damage would be the same absolutely 100% the same. Making 15+ weapons is child's play.
So if you put it in that standard then you have no leg to stand on to even argue this point, thus the SHIP is not OP the WEAPON the ship can use is. SO Escorts are not OP, DHC"S are, So I am kinda at this point begging people to stop blaming the HORSE for the HORSEMAN.
Do not attempt to succeed in gimping a ship class because of a weapon, because you can't destingusih the two. Prove to me that with beams an escort is stronger then a cruiser. A cruiser that has 8 weapon slots, can easily make 15+ weapons energy, and a flying fortress. If you prove to me that my beam escort is still miles ahead of your beam cruiser I will pack up my escort and wait for the nerfing.
There is nothing wrong with the classes at all. Look at it and understand it. You cannot blame a ship for it's captains choices. If they wanted an i win button they found it.
These things get hella vicious when people get personal. Throw a god dang chair and light it up!
Anywho, when it comes down to it people shouldn't yell things like learn to play and noob and nerf and all that fun stuff we yell when we have nothing constructive but destructive to say.
Both sides are right but also both sides are wrong. Lol why people think that cruisers should be in one role and sci's in one role and escorts in one role is beyond me.
There is no topical difference between these ships. You can make an escort into a cruiser a cruiser into a sci and a sci into an escort with how customizable this game is so all of this is just moot.
If you take away DHC's then what kinda argument do you have? None. What would be the difference between an escort and a cruiser then? Then would the Cruiser be Op because it has such a thick hull and shields? Would this OP escort if it used the same beams and equipments as the cruiser be OP? No, their damage would be the same absolutely 100% the same. Making 15+ weapons is child's play.
So if you put it in that standard then you have no leg to stand on to even argue this point, thus the SHIP is not OP the WEAPON the ship can use is. SO Escorts are not OP, DHC"S are, So I am kinda at this point begging people to stop blaming the HORSE for the HORSEMAN.
Do not attempt to succeed in gimping a ship class because of a weapon, because you can't destingusih the two. Prove to me that with beams an escort is stronger then a cruiser. A cruiser that has 8 weapon slots, can easily make 15+ weapons energy, and a flying fortress. If you prove to me that my beam escort is still miles ahead of your beam cruiser I will pack up my escort and wait for the nerfing.
There is nothing wrong with the classes at all. Look at it and understand it. You cannot blame a ship for it's captains choices. If they wanted an i win button they found it.
Agreed on all points. Well... except that, instead of calling DHCs 'OP', I'd call every other weapon 'gimped'.
So if you put it in that standard then you have no leg to stand on to even argue this point, thus the SHIP is not OP the WEAPON the ship can use is. SO Escorts are not OP, DHC"S are, So I am kinda at this point begging people to stop blaming the HORSE for the HORSEMAN.
This sadly does not account for the effect that Tacs and escorts jointly had on science or the small difference between cruiser and escort HPs.
Everything else I agree with however you cannot remove DHCs from the game without thereby destroying what is left of pvp... Escorts with DCs are well balanced against cruisers with Beam arrays however so long as beam arrays continue to bounce off the shields of everything running EPtS1 and the systems teams continue to not care in the slightest DHCs will be required if anything is to die in a reasonable time...
This makes no sense to me, you are arguing that escorts do the most dps. but...thats an escorts job...to do dps, and alot of it.
Exactly. They do the highest possible damage out there. But the catch here is... they can also tank and survive very well outside of PvP. And since they can tank decently if not amazingly in PvE, it eliminates the need for cruisers and science ships. So basically... escorts get to "have their cake and eat it to". They can do tons of damage (based on soe alpha strikes I have seen, OBSCENE damage), and at the same time can survive anything and everything the game throws at them (other than other players and suicidal fer'jais), without having to sacrifice any damage output.
THAT is what I was saying. The fact that escorts can do that makes the other ship classes sub-optimal, if not outright obsolete in most end-game PvE.
I think the problem is NOT the ships or the captains or even peoples skills right now. I think its the fact that most PVE events only require large amounts of DPS. do not include hive in this because that obviously requries good healing cruisers and sci ships. What we need is for PVE events to be made so that without a cruiser or sci ship they become nearly impossible to complete. make it so that you HAVE to get a big shield or hull healer in the group for support.
for example some type of field that deals hull damage over time could be added, it does not deal a ton of damage but it deals enough that a cruiser is required to heal the escorts.
or require a certain science ship ability to debuff a target before it can take damage.
just in case you missed my second part
instead of changing ships and abilities that makes people angry, lets change PVE to make it more fun while getting more use out of cruisers and science ships.
The classical response: "It's not me it's your build response".." I'm better than you" immature troll....did you read the countless number of people posting with the same problem. Pre F2P you probably wouldn't have said that since any SCI would have beaten you outright. SCI was nerfed long ago if you weren't there to live through it you should restrict judment before condemming the rest of the playerbase who might not be "good enough" as quoted above...:D
You're welcome to try my cruiser on if you so wish... If you are so confident that I am an incompetent player half my age then you wont mind proving yourself right will you?
Lolwut?
Everyone knows two halfway competent cruisers will never kill each other off.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Was in a stf a couple of days ago, and there was this certain sci ship...
They are rarely seen but this one made alot of noise in my combat log.
This time the escorts was the ones that did the lesser damage to the tac cube.
So i guess it's how you skill and build your ship that still counts in this game, alot.
That's also the reason why there are escorts that have more firepower than other escorts.
Most cruisers are really support ships for the escorts, to take aggro and heal when it is needed.
If you want more firepower you really should go with escorts.
How ever you wish to see it, tankers are needed and very helpful with the right captain having the wheel.
I've seen cruiser sitting 2k from a gate tanking and unloading torps at it and taking the agro and killing it quickly.
I myself have needed to respec two times to get the most out of my escort(s) and still i do not come close to some other escorts when it concerns damage in pve or pvp.
:-)
More likely one will fall asleep. Adam and I went head to head with our PvE builds and we went for something like 20 minutes without even breaking each other's shields. It was quite funny.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
More likely one will fall asleep. Adam and I went head to head with our PvE builds and we went for something like 20 minutes without even breaking each other's shields. It was quite funny.
sounds like the fight me and a friend had with a novice bugship pilot; we were both in escorts (well, in my case, a raider), yet no matter how much fire we poured into that damn thing, we could barely get the shields below 50%, never mind doing any significant damage to the hull
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
More likely one will fall asleep. Adam and I went head to head with our PvE builds and we went for something like 20 minutes without even breaking each other's shields. It was quite funny.
Was in a stf a couple of days ago, and there was this certain sci ship...
They are rarely seen but this one made alot of noise in my combat log.
This time the escorts was the ones that did the lesser damage to the tac cube.
So i guess it's how you skill and build your ship that still counts in this game, alot.
That's also the reason why there are escorts that have more firepower than other escorts.
Most cruisers are really support ships for the escorts, to take aggro and heal when it is needed.
If you want more firepower you really should go with escorts.
How ever you wish to see it, tankers are needed and very helpful with the right captain having the wheel.
I've seen cruiser sitting 2k from a gate tanking and unloading torps at it and taking the agro and killing it quickly.
I myself have needed to respec two times to get the most out of my escort(s) and still i do not come close to some other escorts when it concerns damage in pve or pvp.
:-)
to be fair. most escorts you see in stfs can be outdps'd with a miranda
Everythime I read this thread my soul goes somewhere and dies off in the woods like a wounded wolf.
NO SHIP can OUT DPS another it is impossible, because every ship can get the same buffs. A,B, O, FoMM, GTF, EPTW so on and so forth if the ships are of the same class they will only be divided by the boffs, doffs, and captain.
NO SHIP CAN INNATELY CAUSE MORE DPS THEN ANOTHER OF it's type. I have no idea where people get this from.
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe some ships have some magical dps meter that I am missing because I don't see it. When you look at an Escort all you see is 15+ to weapons, that's across the board. Unless they have a console that improves their dps their is no difference between ships of the same line
Every escort has the same additions just different set ups ad yet all, ALL of them have a comm and lt Comm Tac slots. Even Fleet ships cannot innately out dps a regular variant of ir's class so where is all of these mythological numbers coming from? A sao Pao can out dps a PE? When and where?, they are the same class so they have the same innate abilities where is it written that one ship is better then another?
Maybe I need to call myth busters or something or maybe I am seeing something as wrong.
Every escort has the same additions just different set ups ad yet all, ALL of them have a comm and lt Comm Tac slots. Even Fleet ships cannot innately out dps a regular variant of ir's class so where is all of these mythological numbers coming from? A sao Pao can out dps a PE? When and where?, they are the same class so they have the same innate abilities where is it written that one ship is better then another?
Everythime I read this thread my soul goes somewhere and dies off in the woods like a wounded wolf.
NO SHIP can OUT DPS another it is impossible, because every ship can get the same buffs. A,B, O, FoMM, GTF, EPTW so on and so forth if the ships are of the same class they will only be divided by the boffs, doffs, and captain.
NO SHIP CAN INNATELY CAUSE MORE DPS THEN ANOTHER OF it's type. I have no idea where people get this from.
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe some ships have some magical dps meter that I am missing because I don't see it. When you look at an Escort all you see is 15+ to weapons, that's across the board. Unless they have a console that improves their dps their is no difference between ships of the same line
Every escort has the same additions just different set ups ad yet all, ALL of them have a comm and lt Comm Tac slots. Even Fleet ships cannot innately out dps a regular variant of ir's class so where is all of these mythological numbers coming from? A sao Pao can out dps a PE? When and where?, they are the same class so they have the same innate abilities where is it written that one ship is better then another?
Maybe I need to call myth busters or something or maybe I am seeing something as wrong.
You forget the skills part, that decides which ship will make the most damage, consoles will also add to damage and dps.
The ship is just a part of it with it's attributes and then you can add your own to that, and that differ from captain to captain, that is why the same type of ship can generate different damage and dps.
Forgot...
Specific accolades can also add to your damage.
You're saying that escorts are op? or are you saying the Kumari is op? And doesn't that mean again that you are blaming the ship class for one vehicle, and the vehicle for one weapon type?
You forget the skills part, that decides which ship will make the most damage, consoles will also add to damage and dps.
The ship is just a part of it with it's attributes and then you can add your own to that, and that differ from captain to captain, that is why the same type of ship can generate different damage and dps.
Forgot...
Specific accolades can also add to your damage.
I addressed that as Boffs, Doffs, and Captain skill(s). No ship can out dps another in any way or form if it was not for this. No escort is greater then an escort, no sci better then a sci, no cruiser then a cruiser. They are divided by their consoles, and weapons types, if they posses neither then they are the same. Unless they have add-ons like pets, or lances they are not more damaging then their contemporaries.
I addressed that as Boffs, Doffs, and Captain skill(s). No ship can out dps another in any way or form if it was not for this. No escort is greater then an escort, no sci better then a sci, no cruiser then a cruiser. They are divided by their consoles, and weapons types, if they posses neither then they are the same. Unless they have add-ons like pets, or lances they are not more damaging then their contemporaries.
Half right, half wrong. Some ships have more hull than others of their class. Others have stronger shield mods. And some have differing power allocations (most notably cruisers). So some cruisers will do more damage than others, some escorts will be able to get smacked harder than others, and some sci ships will have stronger shields than others. But if you give them all mk 1 white gear, they are VERY similar in ability (if you take away BOffs and just have them smack each other like low level NPCs). But the differences are tiny, but VERY noticeable combined with skills.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Half right, half wrong. Some ships have more hull than others of their class. Others have stronger shield mods. And some have differing power allocations (most notably cruisers). So some cruisers will do more damage than others, some escorts will be able to get smacked harder than others, and some sci ships will have stronger shields than others. But if you give them all mk 1 white gear, they are VERY similar in ability (if you take away BOffs and just have them smack each other like low level NPCs). But the differences are tiny, but VERY noticeable combined with skills.
Which is why it is an issue with how some mechanics scale not the mechanics themselves.
- DHCs do not punish each other with the weapon power drain mechanic. Beams do.
- Turn rate maths have scaling based off the ship turn rate -3. Meaning a ship with 9 turn rate gets double the benefit a ship with 6 turn rate does from anything that enhances turn rate.
- +% Damage buffs (APA, GDF, Tac Fleet, EPtW, APO) are multiplicative to one another. Meaning if you get +50% and +50% and +10% you gain +145% damage.
The basic mechanics are fine and work well. The above listed mechanics are flawed.
Comments
How lovely for you...
Coming from Geko? I wouldn't read it as players should learn to play. I could go further in detail as to why that's a bad interpolation, but I shouldn't have to if you're a PVP player.
I'd cut that person some slack since Geko feels Flow Capacitors help offset beams' energy drain.
I pity people who can not do that
Why should I cut him slack ? Its a basic thing that he missed.
I mean, I would cut him slack if he would simply make a thread about competitive pvp and pve cruiser builds, asking for help there to better his build/tactics and so on, instead of whining here like a little kid who can't always win while he/she plays in the school.
You're welcome to try my cruiser on if you so wish... If you are so confident that I am an incompetent player half my age then you wont mind proving yourself right will you?
(Gets popcorn)
These things get hella vicious when people get personal. Throw a god dang chair and light it up!
Anywho, when it comes down to it people shouldn't yell things like learn to play and noob and nerf and all that fun stuff we yell when we have nothing constructive but destructive to say.
Both sides are right but also both sides are wrong. Lol why people think that cruisers should be in one role and sci's in one role and escorts in one role is beyond me.
There is no topical difference between these ships. You can make an escort into a cruiser a cruiser into a sci and a sci into an escort with how customizable this game is so all of this is just moot.
If you take away DHC's then what kinda argument do you have? None. What would be the difference between an escort and a cruiser then? Then would the Cruiser be Op because it has such a thick hull and shields? Would this OP escort if it used the same beams and equipments as the cruiser be OP? No, their damage would be the same absolutely 100% the same. Making 15+ weapons is child's play.
So if you put it in that standard then you have no leg to stand on to even argue this point, thus the SHIP is not OP the WEAPON the ship can use is. SO Escorts are not OP, DHC"S are, So I am kinda at this point begging people to stop blaming the HORSE for the HORSEMAN.
Do not attempt to succeed in gimping a ship class because of a weapon, because you can't destingusih the two. Prove to me that with beams an escort is stronger then a cruiser. A cruiser that has 8 weapon slots, can easily make 15+ weapons energy, and a flying fortress. If you prove to me that my beam escort is still miles ahead of your beam cruiser I will pack up my escort and wait for the nerfing.
There is nothing wrong with the classes at all. Look at it and understand it. You cannot blame a ship for it's captains choices. If they wanted an i win button they found it.
Agreed on all points. Well... except that, instead of calling DHCs 'OP', I'd call every other weapon 'gimped'.
This sadly does not account for the effect that Tacs and escorts jointly had on science or the small difference between cruiser and escort HPs.
Everything else I agree with however you cannot remove DHCs from the game without thereby destroying what is left of pvp... Escorts with DCs are well balanced against cruisers with Beam arrays however so long as beam arrays continue to bounce off the shields of everything running EPtS1 and the systems teams continue to not care in the slightest DHCs will be required if anything is to die in a reasonable time...
just in case you missed my second part
instead of changing ships and abilities that makes people angry, lets change PVE to make it more fun while getting more use out of cruisers and science ships.
Just because it's true man
Because he broke up with the Enterprise. LOL
Lolwut?
Everyone knows two halfway competent cruisers will never kill each other off.
until someone makes a mistake, at least
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
It has to be a pretty big mistake at just the right time. But if one of the cruisers is a KDF battlecruiser it changes things.
They are rarely seen but this one made alot of noise in my combat log.
This time the escorts was the ones that did the lesser damage to the tac cube.
So i guess it's how you skill and build your ship that still counts in this game, alot.
That's also the reason why there are escorts that have more firepower than other escorts.
Most cruisers are really support ships for the escorts, to take aggro and heal when it is needed.
If you want more firepower you really should go with escorts.
How ever you wish to see it, tankers are needed and very helpful with the right captain having the wheel.
I've seen cruiser sitting 2k from a gate tanking and unloading torps at it and taking the agro and killing it quickly.
I myself have needed to respec two times to get the most out of my escort(s) and still i do not come close to some other escorts when it concerns damage in pve or pvp.
:-)
More likely one will fall asleep. Adam and I went head to head with our PvE builds and we went for something like 20 minutes without even breaking each other's shields. It was quite funny.
sounds like the fight me and a friend had with a novice bugship pilot; we were both in escorts (well, in my case, a raider), yet no matter how much fire we poured into that damn thing, we could barely get the shields below 50%, never mind doing any significant damage to the hull
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
This has been my experience as well.
to be fair. most escorts you see in stfs can be outdps'd with a miranda
10k DPS Vesta threads: 1; 2
Which is exactly the point of my challenge, if I were the incompetent player he seems convinced I am then he will destroy my cruiser.
Not sure about the Mirandas... But i highly doubt it :-D
But all right, let me reply to a challange with a challange.
Why don't we make a thread about how to build a good cruiser ?
Everythime I read this thread my soul goes somewhere and dies off in the woods like a wounded wolf.
NO SHIP can OUT DPS another it is impossible, because every ship can get the same buffs. A,B, O, FoMM, GTF, EPTW so on and so forth if the ships are of the same class they will only be divided by the boffs, doffs, and captain.
NO SHIP CAN INNATELY CAUSE MORE DPS THEN ANOTHER OF it's type. I have no idea where people get this from.
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe some ships have some magical dps meter that I am missing because I don't see it. When you look at an Escort all you see is 15+ to weapons, that's across the board. Unless they have a console that improves their dps their is no difference between ships of the same line
Every escort has the same additions just different set ups ad yet all, ALL of them have a comm and lt Comm Tac slots. Even Fleet ships cannot innately out dps a regular variant of ir's class so where is all of these mythological numbers coming from? A sao Pao can out dps a PE? When and where?, they are the same class so they have the same innate abilities where is it written that one ship is better then another?
Maybe I need to call myth busters or something or maybe I am seeing something as wrong.
Kumari, I need say no more
You forget the skills part, that decides which ship will make the most damage, consoles will also add to damage and dps.
The ship is just a part of it with it's attributes and then you can add your own to that, and that differ from captain to captain, that is why the same type of ship can generate different damage and dps.
Forgot...
Specific accolades can also add to your damage.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=583401
Beat you to it!
You're saying that escorts are op? or are you saying the Kumari is op? And doesn't that mean again that you are blaming the ship class for one vehicle, and the vehicle for one weapon type?
I addressed that as Boffs, Doffs, and Captain skill(s). No ship can out dps another in any way or form if it was not for this. No escort is greater then an escort, no sci better then a sci, no cruiser then a cruiser. They are divided by their consoles, and weapons types, if they posses neither then they are the same. Unless they have add-ons like pets, or lances they are not more damaging then their contemporaries.
Half right, half wrong. Some ships have more hull than others of their class. Others have stronger shield mods. And some have differing power allocations (most notably cruisers). So some cruisers will do more damage than others, some escorts will be able to get smacked harder than others, and some sci ships will have stronger shields than others. But if you give them all mk 1 white gear, they are VERY similar in ability (if you take away BOffs and just have them smack each other like low level NPCs). But the differences are tiny, but VERY noticeable combined with skills.
Which is why it is an issue with how some mechanics scale not the mechanics themselves.
- DHCs do not punish each other with the weapon power drain mechanic. Beams do.
- Turn rate maths have scaling based off the ship turn rate -3. Meaning a ship with 9 turn rate gets double the benefit a ship with 6 turn rate does from anything that enhances turn rate.
- +% Damage buffs (APA, GDF, Tac Fleet, EPtW, APO) are multiplicative to one another. Meaning if you get +50% and +50% and +10% you gain +145% damage.
The basic mechanics are fine and work well. The above listed mechanics are flawed.