So while were making these I win wish list what else do we need to make cruiser op since the only proof of their inadequacies is dhc's on an escort and it's maneuverability. I don't get it. Klinks have 1-2 more turn on their ships and they are amazing in their cruisers and have no problem with killing escorts but escorts are op?
Let's make their turn rates like that of destroyers, in crease their damage to match their op healing capabilities, add a few DHC's for kicks and one or two more tac consoles, that way we can make up for the UP escort that uses OP weapons and OP natural abilities to be faster then a hulking huge ship that needs 2000+ people to run it effectively.
Everybody is skipping right over what I am saying and going right back to DHC's that is not proof that escorts are op it is proof that the weapons they use ARE.
PRove to me that escorts with the same weapons and items as a cruiser will still win and I will shut up in a heartbeat. Isn't that what op is? To win no matter the circumstances. Don't mention DHC's, go with total beams and prove to me that the escort is op.
If I am op with them then I am op without them correct? Then just prove it. It's not hard been saying it the whole time and everyone's reply is but it uses DHC's effectively. Seriously? Because it can turn and is faster because it is lighter and more maneuverable that makes it op? Why wouldn't it be able to turn? You're comparing moving a rock to moving a mountain. Talk about nitpicking.
I will say this one more time and hopefully it will penetrate. Read carefully. The escort is not OP, but the weapons the captain choices to use is.
I will continue to say this until someone proves me wrong, because it is the only statement that from the gate proves you wrong. I am not saying learn to play, I am not saying buff, I am not saying nerf, I am saying that this belief is wrong. Escorts are not op if anything they are under powered. If you removed DHC's what do you have? Nothing.
I personally refuse to use DHC's anyhow for a standard and I don't mind using beams I had to learn how to survive with my CHOICES if they are limited by the system or my own pride, I accepted it.
Is this something you too can accept? That you have your limitations and all you can do to prove your worth is surpass them. Don't look at someone else plate and whine that they have more portions then you, becayse at least you can eat. Cruisers are still pivotal in this game and if you don't understand that then maybe I've been around elites too long and I'm spoiled by their talent. I've heard them laugh at escorts before even when I killed them but I have never ever heard them say that they were op. They said I was lucky. And I think they are right.
Your being completely rediculous. Honestly could you be any more overly dramatic. Why would you compare a beam Escort to a beam cruiser when nearly every Escort is using cannons.
Among fed ships only Escorts can use cannons! You say cannons are OP! Cruisers can't use cannons! See the problem? Saying Escorts aren't OP, that only the weapons they all use are, is just quibbling over the semantics
You yourself said why Klinks have it easier; more turn, can equip cannons.
I don't care if you choose beams. Myself and most other Escort players choose DHCs, which by your own words are OP, and which most Cruiser players can't choose, and even if they can (Gal-X) don't have the turn to use them well.
I don't want to see my captain/class of ships nerfed either but your NOT helping.
If you put BEAMS on an escort and BEAMS on a cruiser the cruiser doesn't have to move at all it can sit in place and brutalize and harass the weaker escort until it dies. Isn't that proof alone?
The thing you seem to miss is that any escort pilot who takes the time to think his defiant (for example as the most glass cannony of the escorts) build through will have two Emergency power to shield powers and two Attack Pattern Deltas along with 2 tactical teams with one Attack pattern Omega.
Now even without the Omega those 6 skills are available to ANY escort pilot without costing any DPS these four abilities alone will allow this escort to take so little damage from beams they can repair it using the base repair rate from crew alone meaning that your beam/scort vs beam cruiser still leaves the escort in a better position to win as they sill have enough tac slots left over to buff their weapons such that they can kill the cruiser, something the cruiser CAN'T do...
do you have no clue whatsoever about the link between the narrow arc of dhc's and their high dps capacity?
the narrow arc is supposed to balance them out is spike damage weapons, but it doesnt do that because the escort class's turn rate eliminates the narrow firing arc is a balancing factor.
Most people have a clue about the firing arc and the burst damage it does.
It's a tactically sound setup to set the heavier weapons on the most manuoverable ships to take the best advantage of them.
and your ''A cruiser is huge and hulking and an escort is small and nimble'' is the dumbest part of your post altogether.
my advanced escort is bigger than a heavy cruiser yet has twice the turn rate.
go feed that one past your blinkers.
Just as it should be when it is an escort, even though it is bigger it has better turn rate because that is how escorts should be and how they are built.
They also have a boff slotting and console slotting that is more apropriate for that kind of build than a cruiser would have.
If cruisers would have the same build and setup as a escort it wouldn't really be a cruiser now would it?
all you need to do is watch a fight between a dhc vorcha & a beam vorcha to figure out the broken link
make it a fight between a dhc gal-x and a beam gal-x if you want the point that on their own dhc's vs beams are balanced
Beams do lesser damage in most setups, that is because beams have a lesser damage rating, however, they do not loose as much damage because of distance from the target as cannons do, there of the more power drain when using beams because sustainability over distance.
escorts having 2x agility advantage over ships the same size as them, is the exploit that turns the superior dps from dhc's from a spike, to to sustained.
Do these ships have the same console slotting and boff slotting as the mentioned escort?
No, because they are not escorts, they have a different function then escorts do.
That is no different than the ships we have here on earth, they are different because they have different roles to perform.
So first it's DHC's make escorts op, now it's maneuverability that mass them op?
So natuaral law makes them OP now?
If you compare a motorcycle to a Semi wouldn't the motorcycle be faster and more maneuverable?
A cruiser is huge and hulking and an escort is small and nimble. But maneuverability and speed means nothing without stopping power. If you put BEAMS on an escort and BEAMS on a cruiser the cruiser doesn't have to move at all it can sit in place and brutalize and harass the weaker escort until it dies. Isn't that proof alone?
I said it was several factors that made escorts much more powerful then science ships and cruisers in my initial post. I just went more in depth with dual heavy cannons since that was what was being discussed at the time. You motorcycle semi comparison is not very accurate. Several of the escorts in this game as well as several cruisers on the Klingon side have very good maneuverability in spite of their size. My Advanced Escort for instance is the same length as my Heavy Cruiser yet has more then double the turn rate. This game follows no real logic when assigning its numbers to maneuverability.
Also I'd just like to point out that I'm not advocating a nerf to escorts. I'm more interested in bringing balance to the game by buffing science ships and cruisers bringing them up to the level of the escorts. Particularly science ships which outside a very small number of ships are very weak.
The thing you seem to miss is that any escort pilot who takes the time to think his defiant (for example as the most glass cannony of the escorts) build through will have two Emergency power to shield powers and two Attack Pattern Deltas along with 2 tactical teams with one Attack pattern Omega.
Now even without the Omega those 6 skills are available to ANY escort pilot without costing any DPS these four abilities alone will allow this escort to take so little damage from beams they can repair it using the base repair rate from crew alone meaning that your beam/scort vs beam cruiser still leaves the escort in a better position to win as they sill have enough tac slots left over to buff their weapons such that they can kill the cruiser, something the cruiser CAN'T do...
Escorts NOT overpowered?
Escorts not overpowered. If a cruiser is losing to an escort because it can't out damage the escort's innate hull regen, and it can't tank the escorts firepower, then there are two problems: The player's skill, and the player's build.
For starters, how is it that Escorts can tank damage from other escorts, but cruisers somehow can't? Seriously, I tank damage from other escorts all the time, and yet were we to believe these threads, an escort is somehow an unstoppable juggernaut that the tankiest ship class in the game can't hope to outlast. I mean, Double tac team and double Emergency power Shields is available on cruisers too...
Secondly, you have an escort in your example that is giving up half (or even more than half) of its available bridge officer powers in order to 'tank', and then you go on to say that there is no DPS loss for doing so. Even assuming that were true (and its not), what about the OTHER things it's giving up? Like, say CC abilities, or team heals, or counters to disables, etc. Why don't those matter?
My guess is the answer to that question is that the powers that Cruisers get with their high level eng slots are considered inferior to the options escorts get in their high lvl slots. Guess what? That doesn't make escorts OP. It means that Eng powers are somehow lacking and/or that players simply aren't using them well. The escort-hate is misguided - it's not about the ship per se, it's about tac power envy.
I said it was several factors that made escorts much more powerful then science ships and cruisers in my initial post. I just went more in depth with dual heavy cannons since that was what was being discussed at the time. You motorcycle semi comparison is not very accurate. Several of the escorts in this game as well as several cruisers on the Klingon side have very good maneuverability in spite of their size. My Advanced Escort for instance is the same length as my Heavy Cruiser yet has more then double the turn rate. This game follows no real logic when assigning its numbers to maneuverability.
Also I'd just like to point out that I'm not advocating a nerf to escorts. I'm more interested in bringing balance to the game by buffing science ships and cruisers bringing them up to the level of the escorts. Particularly science ships which outside a very small number of ships are very weak.
I do agree that the ship's Hull + Shields + BOFF layout + mobility + Armaments must all be considered, otherwise we only see a small fragment of the whole picture.
Some point to a few of the above factors, with escort usually mobility + armaments + defenses > cruiser, but I've rarely seen anyone mentioning BOFF layouts. Given that the bulk of engineer skills are defensive, how can cruisers with Engineer-heavy BOFF stations possibly match the firepower-output of Tac-BOFF-station focused escorts, especially in PVE where DPS rankings determine end-match loot distribution?
DHC's could get nerfed since they are part of the escort's primary offense, but this still won't help cruisers achieve higher DPS numbers in PVE fleet actions since they will still be burdened by lack of tactical weapon BOFF abilities. This is why I favor giving cruisers a few extra perks like longer range Heavy Beam Weapons, increased turn rates, and possibly new options like shared BOFF abilities to help round out both offense and defense.
For starters, how is it that Escorts can tank damage from other escorts, but cruisers somehow can't? Seriously, I tank damage from other escorts all the time, and yet were we to believe these threads, an escort is somehow an unstoppable juggernaut that the tankiest ship class in the game can't hope to outlast. I mean, Double tac team and double Emergency power Shields is available on cruisers too...
Okay... the builds I was using in this example were my own:
Tac/scort:
Weaposn
Fore: 3x DHC, 1x Torp
Aft: 3 Turrets
Full Maco Set (Mk XII)
Consoles not important
Boffs
CMDR Tac: TT1, AP: D1, CRF1 (can be swapped to FAW3 for this example), AP:O3
LTC Tac: TT1, AP: D1, HYT3 (Again, can be switched to FAW3 for this example)
LT Eng: EPtS1, RSP1
Ens Eng: EPtA1 (Using 3 DCE doffs to cycle these)
LT Sci: HE1, TSS2
Neither of these are failbuilds both are quite capable of tanking anything PvE has to offer though the tac/scort will still come out ontop in this scenario in the event that there is a victor as the cruiser will not even dent the escorts hull whether the escort uses a heal or not.
An escort can tank another escort by turning maybe? You know something the cruiser (again) can't do well enough to get the escort off it's back and Science? Well Sci is no threat to this Tac/scort, it can tank through anything a sci ship can throw at it and take said sci ship out in 5 seconds
Neither of these are failbuilds both are quite capable of tanking anything PvE has to offer though the tac/scort will still come out ontop in this scenario in the event that there is a victor as the cruiser will not even dent the escorts hull whether the escort uses a heal or not.
An escort can tank another escort by turning maybe? You know something the cruiser (again) can't do well enough to get the escort off it's back and Science? Well Sci is no threat to this Tac/scort, it can tank through anything a sci ship can throw at it and take said sci ship out in 5 seconds
First of all, stop saying things like 'The cruiser can't even dent the escort's shields' because it's simply not true. I think you are simply being hyperbolic, but it's hard to tell. If your position is that an escort cannot be significantly damaged, let alone destroyed by beams, then you are simply wrong, and I will know to file you in the same crazy bin that I put several other posters. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, and assuming you mean "The Cruiser may not be able to break the escort's tank unless he can find a way to disrupt the escort's heal cycle", which is a reasonable position to have, and likely means the ships end in a draw.
Here's how I know that beams CAN kill escorts, or even cruisers (and that they can win first place in Gorn minefield etc): I run them on an escort, and it works fine. I don't even run 6 of them, I run 4 (and then 3 torps), and yet I can still do enough damage to burn down most PVP targets. Granted, there are some players that I can't kill with my setup, but those are the exception, not the norm. My set up IS a fail build, damage wise, and yet it usually gets the job done. So no matter how hard you may protest, you will likely never convince me that cruisers are inherently unable to do enough damage to matter.
Now then, I will concede that the builds you posted are reasonable ones (although I'm not sure how/why FAWIII is interchangeable with CRF II, even assuming you swap out weapons - they are totally different skills in practice). My suspicion is that fight would yield a draw, unless the escort captain was skilled enough to bait out the cruiser's heals and then alpha while tt and rsp are on cooldown. If the cruiser captain doesn't bite, or if the escort captain alphas too soon, then it's a draw. I agree that the cruiser build as presented probably won't be able to deal enough damage to the escort to kill it before it can disengage to heal and then come back and start the cycle over.
Now here's the part where I blow your mind: That doesn't mean the escort is OP! Here's why: The fight that we are positing here plays only to the escort's strengths - there are almost no holds, snares, disables, etc. In fact the only CC power at all is EWP, and that is countered by Omega and HE.
So, this is just a straight slugging match, which already makes things a bit easier on the escort, as it doesn't have to worry so much about saving Omega to break tractors, etc, and can instead focus all its attention and energy on breaking the cruiser's tank.
On the other end of the spectrum, we have the cruiser, who, while having a perfectly valid and reasonable build, does NOT have a build that is focused as tightly on Damage/tanking in a 1v1 as the escort is. There is no 'spike' damage power to take advantage of the holes in the escort's heal cycle, there are no holds to force the escort to burn Omega defensively, etc. Moreover, because the cruiser is clearly designed to operate with a friend, the cruiser loses a LT lvl BOFF power entirely, and as built, doesn't have much more tanking than the escort does.
Some of this is the cruiser's choice, however, and is not an inherent weakness in the class. For example, the cruiser could ditch EWP for RSP III and in one go double his chances of outright negating the escort's best alpha. Upgrade the E pwr Shields to II and replace the Extend that is not doing any good in this scenario. The list goes on and on... many things could be done to ensure that even if the cruiser can't kill the escort, the escort can never kill the cruiser either.
Ultimately, I think the lesson here is that Escorts might look OP because they are often focused on doing only one thing, while Cruisers and Science ships typically spread themselves out to fill less focused roles. This is the entire root of the problem in my eyes - people often don't want to focus their power selections on the roles cruisers and sci ships are really good at, but they want to fly those ships anyway, so they design perfectly fine 'jack of all trades' builds, but only value the parts of those builds that focused escort builds already do better.
I like your analysis and came very much to the same conclusion, the cruiser build I usually use has AP:B2 over AP:O1 and both builds are quite capable of tanking ISE Gate and cube, I don't mind the damage loss on the cruiser too much, I still do about 5k DPS with it and 6k with the escort, I lost a couple of hundred encounter DPS for ES but overall I feel it was a good investment, so long as the person I am supporting cycles EPtS1 for themselves I can keep them alive single-handedly while taking on a target of my own.
I do know (flying both ships on a regular basis) if those two were to meet the escort shields would likely never drop completely (may get close) and I know that the cruiser can hold off 3 PuG pvp/scorts before the 4th takes it down (I have actually done this).
The only build I'm having issues with right now is the Sci/Sci but I want it for pvp so it'll be a problem
Quote:
Do these ships have the same console slotting and boff slotting as the mentioned escort?
No, because they are not escorts, they have a different function then escorts do.
That is no different than the ships we have here on earth, they are different because they have different roles to perform.
irrelivent to the agility be fairy magic the ''escorts'' are gifted with.
even if my adv escort had the same agility as the similar size heavy cruiser the ships would still operate differently.
its just that i wouldnt have an advantage that fits the definition of an exploit.
agility acording to my websters pocket dictionary, - "quick, nimble"
I'm not suggesting people take refuge in the false security of consensus, but the power of one more voice in favour of an argument does add weight to the validity of the argument.
Not if said argument is built on an inability to accept that ship classes have roles in this game. If you have an utter lack of imagination and refuse to pay attention to how the best captains in all three classes utilize there ships it's your fault, not Cryptic's. I suspect that's why they ignore hate-filled, childish threads like this.
I could perhaps offer some insights, as a tactical who flies cruisers and sci ships from time to time, or tell you about some of the wonderful things I've seen dedicated/smart full-time sci and eng captains do in their respective ships, but what would be the point? All you guys want is to see escorts turned into a waste of money and time, because it would make you "feel" good just long enough to figure out what to whine about next.
Or is this REALLY just about PvP, AGAIN? Look, it's broken and should never have been bolted to PvE. It would be even less popular than it is without the constant hunt for meatball "work-arounds" that supply an unfair advantage (hence the nerfs we've seen). Until Cryptic gets around to fixing it I suggest some of you guys stay away from PvE, or find something else to play for a while.
Not if said argument is built on an inability to accept that ship classes have roles in this game.
Of course the ship classes have roles. The role of cruisers is to sit in space dock holding spare equipment. The role of science ships is to sit in space dock holding spare equipment. The role of escorts is to go out and play.
And you seriously think that they're going to cripple escorts, turn them into the kings of respawn and in so doing make their firepower useless, just because you and the boys here think you can brow-beat them into morphing every ship into an escort? It's not going to happen, no matter how many threads you start or how many delusional, poorly expressed theories you give birth to.
And you seriously think that they're going to cripple escorts, turn them into the kings of respawn and in so doing make their firepower useless, just because you and the boys here think you can brow-beat them into morphing every ship into an escort? It's not going to happen, no matter how many threads you start or how many delusional, poorly expressed theories you give birth to.
I'm not sure why your being so hostile. This thread isn't about crippling escorts. The general consensus is some kind of buff for cruisers and science ships to put them on par with escorts damage wise. The original roles that these ships were intended to fill are simply not needed so it would be nice to have some parity. I fly all the ship types, escort included, and I can support a move to make cruisers and science ships more viable for end game content.
Not if said argument is built on an inability to accept that ship classes have roles in this game. If you have an utter lack of imagination and refuse to pay attention to how the best captains in all three classes utilize there ships it's your fault, not Cryptic's. I suspect that's why they ignore hate-filled, childish threads like this.
I could perhaps offer some insights, as a tactical who flies cruisers and sci ships from time to time, or tell you about some of the wonderful things I've seen dedicated/smart full-time sci and eng captains do in their respective ships, but what would be the point? All you guys want is to see escorts turned into a waste of money and time, because it would make you "feel" good just long enough to figure out what to whine about next.
Or is this REALLY just about PvP, AGAIN? Look, it's broken and should never have been bolted to PvE. It would be even less popular than it is without the constant hunt for meatball "work-arounds" that supply an unfair advantage (hence the nerfs we've seen). Until Cryptic gets around to fixing it I suggest some of you guys stay away from PvE, or find something else to play for a while.
first of all pvp in this game is broken so i'll resume only with pve.
in mmos every class has a special role, but there is pve content where that role is needed.
in STO pve=stfs more or less and in stfs all that matters is the dps. higher the dps then faster stf.
you talk about sci and eng officers are runing with wrong builds by their will? i say cryptic made them (and me) to run with that wrong builds!
i don't want to see nerfs or boosts, i just want to see that the sci and eng roles are needed.
agility in gaming is part of how you balance the game. agility, health and damage.
and when one class in game;
has health & defence stats comparable to the other two, has attack / damage stats that are unchallenged, and, has agility / speed stats that are also unchallenged.
and this is made all the more obvious by making said class bigger than other classes and still more agile (my adv escort vs a heavy cruiser)
you have a broken game balance schema no no amount of semantics will change.
Your point about size is totally irrelevant to game balance. That is purely an aesthetic concern, and your inability to separate art issues from games mechanic issues makes you look silly. Not only that, but your oft-touted example of "Adv. Escort" vs "Heavy Cruiser" is wrong on several levels - first, there are any number of reasons why one ship may have different handling characteristics than another, even though they are roughly the same mass. Second, it ignores the fact that the vast majority of escorts are, in fact, much smaller than the cruisers and science vessels. Third, you are ignoring the fact that you are comparing ships of different 'tiers' of ability - in this game one of the fundamental design concepts is you get better ships as you level, which is a reason why a tier 5 ship will outclass a tier 3 ship regardless of their assigned 'classes'.
Now, for the rest of it, I wonder if you understand what you are asking for? You seem to think you are asking for balance, but what you are really seeking to do is change the aesthetic of the game to one you are more comfortable with. I think whether you want to admit it or not, you are simply wanting cruisers to be the damage dealing class, with escorts relegated to being a useless appendage (I eagerly await the chorus of responses saying that would only be fair, since cruisers feel that way now).
Lets say you got what you wanted, and escorts lost a ton of hull and a bunch of damage. How does that keep them viable? They can't do CC, because that's science's job, and they can't tank because you want them to be squishy, and they can't do damage because they are so agile that it would be 'unfair' for them to hit hard and be that fast. So, what do they do? Fly around looking cool while the 'big ships' blow things up? Yeah, that seems to be what you're asking for. That sounds super-duper dumb for me, and for all that you feel cruisers are 'useless' now, that's more a matter of you not feeling rewarded for doing the job they are designed for, and less about them having no actual purpose, as would be true of escorts under your scheme.
Actually, let's back up a step, because you seem to be ignoring that 'firepower' 'healing' and 'agility' totally ignores crowd control abilities and disables, like sci ships bring - how do those fit into your balance schema? Right now you seem to think they have no value, or at least they don't matter when compared to 'agility', and I think you are wrong about that.
Put another way, what you are misunderstanding is that 'agility' is not a 'role' that a ship can play. Being able to move quickly is not, by itself, rewarded in any way by the game. The roles in the game are DPS, Tank, and CC. The small, agile ships do the damage, the large, slow ships are the tanks, and the mid-range ships are the CC support. That is the design of the game, and that is the holy trinity. Agility is part of balance, sure, but it is not valuable in and of itself, and so can't be one of the core things you balance around, because who cares how fast you can get somewhere if you can't do anything worthwhile when you arrive?
Your point about size is totally irrelevant to game balance. That is purely an aesthetic concern, and your inability to separate art issues from games mechanic issues makes you look silly. Not only that, but your oft-touted example of "Adv. Escort" vs "Heavy Cruiser" is wrong on several levels - first, there are any number of reasons why one ship may have different handling characteristics than another, even though they are roughly the same mass. Second, it ignores the fact that the vast majority of escorts are, in fact, much smaller than the cruisers and science vessels. Third, you are ignoring the fact that you are comparing ships of different 'tiers' of ability - in this game one of the fundamental design concepts is you get better ships as you level, which is a reason why a tier 5 ship will outclass a tier 3 ship regardless of their assigned 'classes'.
Being able to be agile gives you a huge tactical advantage, if you don't belive this, try flying a Galaxy Class, lol.
No matter if this is a MMO or not, it is just totally unrealistic to have two ships of similar size which do differ so much in their turnrate.
Even if a game is an MMO, it doesn't mean that common sense is not supposed to apply, does it?
What me botthers most about this Escort vs. Cruiser+Science dispute is that Escorts do not even fit into the MMO players so much beloved MMO trinity in the first place. They are completely outside the system if they are able to tank and have the most firepower by far.
In my opinion, putting Star Trek ships into the MMO trinity of stone/paper/scissor is just lazy game design aligned towards the standart MMO player so he doesn't have to get accustomized to a different system.
Cryptics devs obviously didn't shy away from turning Star Trek ships into that system, even if those ships don't belong into those roles or not, just to appeal MMO players.
That's what bothers moe the most by far at this game.
Was it so hard to implement Star Trek ships more ture to how they are supposed to be?
Why not give EVERY ship the capability to survive AND do a satisfying amount of damage, just by different means?
Every ships should have some certain advantages but basicly all endgame ships should be equal strong in survivability and offensive, THAT would be balance .
Those "classes" everyone is refering to, are just a invention to put fantasy characters into a system where they can kill dragons with magic, swords of some other means. This system does not work with Star Trek ships, because Star Trek ships are not specialists, they are generalists and thus "balancing" them in that MMO way is completely out of place.
It just shows the complete ignorance the devs and some MMO players have concering Star Trek.
No matter what i say, the future of this game is that we will have to see even more overpowerd escorts since players flying the Jem Hadar Bug ship will be even more frequently appear.
I just wish there where an alternative Star Trek game, made by people caring about Star Trek.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
I just wish there where an alternative Star Trek game, made by people caring about Star Trek.
A group is working on one right now. It's called Star Trek Excalibur. It's the spiritual successor to Bridge Commander and being worked on by modders and some of the old BC crew.
Third, you are ignoring the fact that you are comparing ships of different 'tiers' of ability - in this game one of the fundamental design concepts is you get better ships as you level, which is a reason why a tier 5 ship will outclass a tier 3 ship regardless of their assigned 'classes'.
That's the one rule this game consistently breaks. The refits, the retrofits and the fleet versions of ships all bring lower tier ships into the top tier for competitive gameplay. So a tiny little Nova class can now rub shoulders with the Intrepid, the Deep Space Science Vessel, and the 29th Century timeship.
A group is working on one right now. It's called Star Trek Excalibur. It's the spiritual successor to Bridge Commander and being worked on by modders and some of the old BC crew.
If you look how slow they progress, i think maybe my grandson will be able to play it, one day. lol
I think it's a shame that CBS or whoever has the rights for Star Trek, gave the license for such a game to a group of people who just don't care about the universe at all.
I mean STO feels more like a BAD fan mod for a game than an actual game, if you know what i mean. Someone who is making Escorts (little overly armed nimble and yet super survivable ships) the dominating ship type, has obviously not understood how star trek ships are supposed to work.
I think the only thing a Star Trek fan can do, is to hope there will be a much more true Trek game in our lifetime (exaclibur won't be finished by that, realisticly).
For me STO has lost any connection to Star Trek a long time ago. It just shares some names and some ships look like Star Trek ships.
I have seen fan mods for some games that where more true to Star Trek than STO. (at least ships worked like they where supposed.)
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
except its not burst bamage when you can keep your target in arc just because.
It becomes burst damage when you use an ability like RF or SV.
When not using any ability you do no more damage than a beam attack does because of cd.
And also, the escorts are supposed to keep their target in the firing arc, there of their manouverability, lesser firing arcs demand that, and it is tactically sound.
most of the ships called ''escorts'' in this game are cruisers.
doesnt excuse giving one class of ship an advantage just for the lolz
In this game the escort class are escorts, not cruisers. lolz.
yet still nowhere near the potential dps of dhc's
Beams are not supposed to give the same or even near the potential of dhc's
There is a difference to the weapons that make them like they are in the game.
Cannons have a lesser firing arc while doing heavier damage.
Beams have a greater firing arc but do lesser damage while it can keep it's sustainability over distance which cannons do not.
irrelivent to the agility be fairy magic the ''escorts'' are gifted with.
even if my adv escort had the same agility as the similar size heavy cruiser the ships would still operate differently.
its just that i wouldnt have an advantage that fits the definition of an exploit.
It's not irrelevant.
Escorts are built to do alot of damage, there of more tac consoles and a lesser grouping of eng and sci consoles.
Cruisers have another role entirely.
They have alot of eng consoles and sci consoles, but lesser tactical consoles.
They are made to go in to a battle, take alot of beating and keeping a sustainable damage rating, while not high in damage, they do damage.
Also, if the captain knows what he is doing (which is rarely seen in game) giving out heals to the escorts that are in trouble.
For example, in a escort you can sparingly set consoles in the eng and sci slots, so your choices are limited to what you can use on them if you want to survive.
Escort also have another boff slotting, with a com tac, lt.com and some have ens slot.
Cruisers do not have these choices, their boff settings focus mainly on eng stations.
As an example.
Earth bound battleships and cruisers...
You think they have the same abilities and roles?
Or an aircraft carrier, you think that one can do the same things as the above mentioned ships can?
Even in STO the ships are built for acting on their roles.
and this is made all the more obvious by making said class bigger than other classes and still more agile (my adv escort vs a heavy cruiser)
you have a broken game balance schema no no amount of semantics will change.
Semantics have nothing to do with it.
However your understanding of the game is lacking.
I asked you earlier, do the heavy cruiser have the same console slotting and boff slotting as your advanced escort do?
No?
Why is that?
Because they have two different roles to act out on.
Here size do not matter, the heavy cruiser have a greater survivability than your escort does.
It has a greater ability to give out healing, it does not need speed or manouvreability for that.
While your ship has more tactical consoles.
It needs speed and manouverability to act out it's role as an escort ship.
The mechanics is such that there are modifiers on the ship, from the begining without any consoles it has advantages.
All ships do, escorts, cruisers, sci ship.
there is a difference between having ship classes and deliberatly imposing penalties and perks that obviously benefit one class, simple fact of the matter is that the ''escort'' class is the easiest ship to do well in regardless of being pvp or pve due to dps that the other classes dont hold a candle to, and yet are expected to be forced into the role of target practice & punching bags.
Ah, so this really ain't about the ships, it's about the dps is it?
It's so unfair right....?
Not the least.
You do not have the healing as a cruisers does in a escort, wait now, that is unfair!
I want that healing too!
And i also want the hull!
And i want the sci tools on my escort too!
buying a ship in this game should be a matter of choice & preference, not a case of ''this is teh superior'' as it is with escorts, escorts that are selling better DUE to their superiority making it more fun to play them since they blast through content faster than anyother ship and done carry any of the self imposed difficulty fort those who would like to play the game, not be subject to p2w thats being fed by an ''unchecked positive loop'' of escort superiority leading escort popularity leading to escort sales leading to farorable perks leading to escort superiority and on again.
The superior what?
Superior damage yes, superior survivability, no, superior sci abilities, no.
It has superior firepower, but that is it.
If you want firepower, you choose that one, if you want superior survivability you choose a cruiser/sci.
The thing is, there is nothing wrong with the ships.
It's the design of the gamecontent that makes the escorts feeling so superior and cruisers dont really need to get in there and do their thing which they are best at.
And this whining will go on until , as admitted, only 1 class and 1 starship class will remain, only then will people here be feeling happy.
You all want a class that can tank and deal great damage, so why not redo every ship to be a "Tactically scientific cruiser."
Every captain has no special abilities, and all ships have 3 commander slots, one tactical, one engineering, one science, with 4-4-4 console slots and 4-4 weapon slots.
Yeah, lets make all ships all the same for balance, sounds like fun. They can look like Defiants, Intrepids or the Odyssey.
It would be fun and exciting where every ship is the same right?
Wait...why not take equipment out of the game too? The other having better suited consoles and weapon types is bad too.
It would be bad, bland game if Developers listened to you. And it would delete the KDF too, whose whole advantage is its better ships.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
As long as people are wasting rediculus amounts of money for Escorts and other stuff Cryptic will go on and on with creating more and more OP Escorts.
It's like everywhere else in the World, you can justify everything if you make money with it.
The main problem is that STO is being looked at as "just another MMO", ships are made like classes in a Fantasy MMO, so the average MMO player doesn't have to think about anything new.
Especially Cryptics developers seem to be pleased to have their beloved Escorts being totally dominating the game. I wouldn't criticise that, if it where Cryptics universe. But it is not "their" universe, it's Star Trek. If they want it or not things work different in Star Trek as they would in a MMO.
if you think agility is an aesthetic thing then you simply are not competant to comment on game balance.
any difference between 2 spaceships of equivailent size/mass will differ only due to their delta-v.
which ingame is represented be the engine level installed.
''third'' ignorance at its finest, if the stats are based on size the smaller ships will have less mass & inertia, therefore be more agile. not real to irl physics but fits game balance
the smaller ship looses 5k hull and still has an uncontestable advantage in both dps and agility.
im asking that the game deosnt discriminate based on class because someone seems to want to monetise an ''unchecked positive loop'' and bring in pay to win escorts online
that's what i am saying since 3 years, some 1000 more hitpoints cannot compensate for the almost complete loss of maneuverabilty and firepower.
Since Escorts get a rediculus amount of defense for moving fast, their Survivability is almost better that a cruisers, since they can easily disengage a combat situation, whenever they want (thanks to APO) which a cruiser cannot. (even in PvP)
Not to speak of their disproportional amount of possible firepower.
Compared to this, a cruiser is just a mere target practice. And heaven forbid there where able to fight back, lol.
I think it is more than obvious which ship type the devs prefer.
Just look at the first thing we see at the character selection screen, a Defiant bridge, lol.
It's so rediculus i am almost out of words.
I just find it highly unprofessional for a "professional" game devloper to shamelessly put their own personal favours over the need of a product (Star Trek).
and even if you do pull it back, the best sci ships in the game are vestas & other sci-escort hybrids.
but one way or another, if this keeps up, there will be more escort cruiser hybrids like the chelgreet, and people like you will have driven this game into paytowin escorts online.
all thanks to someone in managment who said ''oh wow escorts are more popular, so lets give them more perks, then sell them with more perks, making escorts more popular'' without taking a step back and thinking ''oh yea, unchecked positive loops are are like big red self destruct buttons''
...
I've couldn't say it better.
Ships without DHCs are completely obsolete, since they just cannot do any satisfying amount of damage to overcome the rediculus resistances and heals a Escort can provide.
Anyway this game does NOT deserve to be called a "Star Trek" game in my opinion.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Being able to be agile gives you a huge tactical advantage, if you don't belive this, try flying a Galaxy Class, lol.
No matter if this is a MMO or not, it is just totally unrealistic to have two ships of similar size which do differ so much in their turnrate.
Even if a game is an MMO, it doesn't mean that common sense is not supposed to apply, does it?
It is not at all unrealistic - you have no idea what the relative power/mass ratios are of those ships, nor do you know that 'size' and 'mass' are the same thing. Hell, in an world that has 'inertial dampers', it's even easier to hand-wave those issues away. My point remains - this 'size' issue is purely aesthetics, and that is entirely subjective.
As for the tactical benefits of maneuver - yes, agility is good, because it makes you more able to deliver whatever you are supposed to deliver - damage, heals, CC, etc. My point is that being 'fast' is not a role in and of itself, and you and others keep acting like it is.
Incidentally, the I do have a galaxy, and the problem with it, if there is such a thing, is that in solo play it is boring to fly, not that it is unable to complete missions etc. In other words, it's issue is not that it is 'underpowered', it's that it supports a play style I don't like. The key difference between me and other posters is that I don't take that as a personal affront, and instead figure I'll fly the ships I do enjoy instead. Because, you know, I recognize that not every ship/class/role is going to fit all people equally.
What me botthers most about this Escort vs. Cruiser+Science dispute is that Escorts do not even fit into the MMO players so much beloved MMO trinity in the first place. They are completely outside the system if they are able to tank and have the most firepower by far.
DPS classes are almost always 'faster' because they need to get in to deliver damage. They also need to have SOME tanking ability. This is what escorts do. Escorts are NOT super tanks, and no matter how many times you say it on the internet, it won't make it true. Cruisers can VASTLY out-tank an escorts, it's simply that few choose to do so, either because they don't enjoy that role, or because they would rather build a generalist ship that allows them to play solo, instead of a team-focused support ship.
In my opinion, putting Star Trek ships into the MMO trinity of stone/paper/scissor is just lazy game design aligned towards the standart MMO player so he doesn't have to get accustomized to a different system.
Cryptics devs obviously didn't shy away from turning Star Trek ships into that system, even if those ships don't belong into those roles or not, just to appeal MMO players.
In my opinion, much of the 'STO should be this instead' is the product of lazy minds who are unable to conceive of the fact that saying 'there is a better way of perfect balance that pleases everyone' is far, far easier than actually doing it, nor can they understand that things that appeal to them personally may not appeal to the mass market that games need to survive.
Or, put another way: Yes, Cryptic designed an MMO so that it would appeal to fans of that genre. Sorry you're not one of them.
That's what bothers moe the most by far at this game.
Was it so hard to implement Star Trek ships more ture to how they are supposed to be?
Why not give EVERY ship the capability to survive AND do a satisfying amount of damage, just by different means?
Every ships should have some certain advantages but basicly all endgame ships should be equal strong in survivability and offensive, THAT would be balance .
What bothers ME the most is people who are so wrapped up in their own preferences that they label every minor issue they have as 'the most important'. But that's nit-picking. My next pet-peeve is people who talk about making ships 'true' to what we see on screen, since that's basically impossible. The capabilities of the ships on the screen were dictated not by any consistent rules, they were dictated by the needs of the plot. Thus some days a Galaxy class was a super-ship that could save the Federation single-handed, while on others it was a ridiculous underdog versus the 'enemy of the week'.
Again, saying 'there should be ways to make them do the same amount of damage, just differently' is far, far easier than actually coming up with such a system. Besides, even if you did, there would still end up being one 'method' of damage dealing that was 'better' than the others, and you'd have the same problem all over again.
Finally, right now, all ship classes can contribute effectively to endgame content. If you can't make your cruiser perform a role in an STF, that is on you, full stop. If you are complaining that you want to be able to do more damage so that you can finish STFs even faster than you already are, well, then use the damage dealing ship type. If you are annoyed because escorts can avoid being killed while doing more damage than you, maybe you should look at what cruisers can do, and see how to use that as a strength. If you can't find some sort of joy in being a team tank/heal supporter, then you are in the wrong ship.
Those "classes" everyone is refering to, are just a invention to put fantasy characters into a system where they can kill dragons with magic, swords of some other means. This system does not work with Star Trek ships, because Star Trek ships are not specialists, they are generalists and thus "balancing" them in that MMO way is completely out of place.
It just shows the complete ignorance the devs and some MMO players have concering Star Trek.
Oh, I didn't realize that the real Starfleet ships that really exist in the real world had really really stats that are really different than this game. How dare devs use the wrong kind of make-believe to build their game! Oh... wait.
Also, Starfleet ships are ABSOLUTELY specialists = Defiant, Prometheus, Olympic, Oberth, Nova, etc. All of those ships had specific roles to fill, and were designed specifically to perform them. I think what you meant to say was 'Some Starfleet ships, particularly cruisers like the Galaxy, were designed as generalists so that they could do any job with some faculty, but none of them perfectly'. Huh, sounds a lot like the build we already saw in this thread, but that's probably a crazy co-incidence.
No matter what i say, the future of this game is that we will have to see even more overpowerd escorts since players flying the Jem Hadar Bug ship will be even more frequently appear.
I just wish there where an alternative Star Trek game, made by people caring about Star Trek.
I do too, so you could go be disappointed with them instead of constantly posting here.
Comments
Your being completely rediculous. Honestly could you be any more overly dramatic. Why would you compare a beam Escort to a beam cruiser when nearly every Escort is using cannons.
Among fed ships only Escorts can use cannons! You say cannons are OP! Cruisers can't use cannons! See the problem? Saying Escorts aren't OP, that only the weapons they all use are, is just quibbling over the semantics
You yourself said why Klinks have it easier; more turn, can equip cannons.
I don't care if you choose beams. Myself and most other Escort players choose DHCs, which by your own words are OP, and which most Cruiser players can't choose, and even if they can (Gal-X) don't have the turn to use them well.
I don't want to see my captain/class of ships nerfed either but your NOT helping.
The thing you seem to miss is that any escort pilot who takes the time to think his defiant (for example as the most glass cannony of the escorts) build through will have two Emergency power to shield powers and two Attack Pattern Deltas along with 2 tactical teams with one Attack pattern Omega.
Now even without the Omega those 6 skills are available to ANY escort pilot without costing any DPS these four abilities alone will allow this escort to take so little damage from beams they can repair it using the base repair rate from crew alone meaning that your beam/scort vs beam cruiser still leaves the escort in a better position to win as they sill have enough tac slots left over to buff their weapons such that they can kill the cruiser, something the cruiser CAN'T do...
Escorts NOT overpowered?
It's a tactically sound setup to set the heavier weapons on the most manuoverable ships to take the best advantage of them.
Just as it should be when it is an escort, even though it is bigger it has better turn rate because that is how escorts should be and how they are built.
They also have a boff slotting and console slotting that is more apropriate for that kind of build than a cruiser would have.
If cruisers would have the same build and setup as a escort it wouldn't really be a cruiser now would it?
Beams do lesser damage in most setups, that is because beams have a lesser damage rating, however, they do not loose as much damage because of distance from the target as cannons do, there of the more power drain when using beams because sustainability over distance.
Do these ships have the same console slotting and boff slotting as the mentioned escort?
No, because they are not escorts, they have a different function then escorts do.
That is no different than the ships we have here on earth, they are different because they have different roles to perform.
I said it was several factors that made escorts much more powerful then science ships and cruisers in my initial post. I just went more in depth with dual heavy cannons since that was what was being discussed at the time. You motorcycle semi comparison is not very accurate. Several of the escorts in this game as well as several cruisers on the Klingon side have very good maneuverability in spite of their size. My Advanced Escort for instance is the same length as my Heavy Cruiser yet has more then double the turn rate. This game follows no real logic when assigning its numbers to maneuverability.
Also I'd just like to point out that I'm not advocating a nerf to escorts. I'm more interested in bringing balance to the game by buffing science ships and cruisers bringing them up to the level of the escorts. Particularly science ships which outside a very small number of ships are very weak.
Escorts not overpowered. If a cruiser is losing to an escort because it can't out damage the escort's innate hull regen, and it can't tank the escorts firepower, then there are two problems: The player's skill, and the player's build.
For starters, how is it that Escorts can tank damage from other escorts, but cruisers somehow can't? Seriously, I tank damage from other escorts all the time, and yet were we to believe these threads, an escort is somehow an unstoppable juggernaut that the tankiest ship class in the game can't hope to outlast. I mean, Double tac team and double Emergency power Shields is available on cruisers too...
Secondly, you have an escort in your example that is giving up half (or even more than half) of its available bridge officer powers in order to 'tank', and then you go on to say that there is no DPS loss for doing so. Even assuming that were true (and its not), what about the OTHER things it's giving up? Like, say CC abilities, or team heals, or counters to disables, etc. Why don't those matter?
My guess is the answer to that question is that the powers that Cruisers get with their high level eng slots are considered inferior to the options escorts get in their high lvl slots. Guess what? That doesn't make escorts OP. It means that Eng powers are somehow lacking and/or that players simply aren't using them well. The escort-hate is misguided - it's not about the ship per se, it's about tac power envy.
I do agree that the ship's Hull + Shields + BOFF layout + mobility + Armaments must all be considered, otherwise we only see a small fragment of the whole picture.
Some point to a few of the above factors, with escort usually mobility + armaments + defenses > cruiser, but I've rarely seen anyone mentioning BOFF layouts. Given that the bulk of engineer skills are defensive, how can cruisers with Engineer-heavy BOFF stations possibly match the firepower-output of Tac-BOFF-station focused escorts, especially in PVE where DPS rankings determine end-match loot distribution?
DHC's could get nerfed since they are part of the escort's primary offense, but this still won't help cruisers achieve higher DPS numbers in PVE fleet actions since they will still be burdened by lack of tactical weapon BOFF abilities. This is why I favor giving cruisers a few extra perks like longer range Heavy Beam Weapons, increased turn rates, and possibly new options like shared BOFF abilities to help round out both offense and defense.
Okay... the builds I was using in this example were my own:
Tac/scort:
Weaposn
Fore: 3x DHC, 1x Torp
Aft: 3 Turrets
Full Maco Set (Mk XII)
Consoles not important
Boffs
CMDR Tac: TT1, AP: D1, CRF1 (can be swapped to FAW3 for this example), AP:O3
LTC Tac: TT1, AP: D1, HYT3 (Again, can be switched to FAW3 for this example)
LT Eng: EPtS1, RSP1
Ens Eng: EPtA1 (Using 3 DCE doffs to cycle these)
LT Sci: HE1, TSS2
Eng/Cruiser:
Weapons
Fore: 3 Tet Beam arrays, 1 Torp
Aft: See Fore
Full Maco Set
Consoles not important
Boffs
LTC Tac: TT1, FAW2, AP:O1
CMDR Eng: EPtS1, RSP1, Aux2SIF2, EWP3
LT Eng: EPtW1 (Using 3 DCE doffs to cycle these), ES1
Ens Eng: ET1
LT Sci: HE1, TSS23
Neither of these are failbuilds both are quite capable of tanking anything PvE has to offer though the tac/scort will still come out ontop in this scenario in the event that there is a victor as the cruiser will not even dent the escorts hull whether the escort uses a heal or not.
An escort can tank another escort by turning maybe? You know something the cruiser (again) can't do well enough to get the escort off it's back and Science? Well Sci is no threat to this Tac/scort, it can tank through anything a sci ship can throw at it and take said sci ship out in 5 seconds
First of all, stop saying things like 'The cruiser can't even dent the escort's shields' because it's simply not true. I think you are simply being hyperbolic, but it's hard to tell. If your position is that an escort cannot be significantly damaged, let alone destroyed by beams, then you are simply wrong, and I will know to file you in the same crazy bin that I put several other posters. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, and assuming you mean "The Cruiser may not be able to break the escort's tank unless he can find a way to disrupt the escort's heal cycle", which is a reasonable position to have, and likely means the ships end in a draw.
Here's how I know that beams CAN kill escorts, or even cruisers (and that they can win first place in Gorn minefield etc): I run them on an escort, and it works fine. I don't even run 6 of them, I run 4 (and then 3 torps), and yet I can still do enough damage to burn down most PVP targets. Granted, there are some players that I can't kill with my setup, but those are the exception, not the norm. My set up IS a fail build, damage wise, and yet it usually gets the job done. So no matter how hard you may protest, you will likely never convince me that cruisers are inherently unable to do enough damage to matter.
Now then, I will concede that the builds you posted are reasonable ones (although I'm not sure how/why FAWIII is interchangeable with CRF II, even assuming you swap out weapons - they are totally different skills in practice). My suspicion is that fight would yield a draw, unless the escort captain was skilled enough to bait out the cruiser's heals and then alpha while tt and rsp are on cooldown. If the cruiser captain doesn't bite, or if the escort captain alphas too soon, then it's a draw. I agree that the cruiser build as presented probably won't be able to deal enough damage to the escort to kill it before it can disengage to heal and then come back and start the cycle over.
Now here's the part where I blow your mind: That doesn't mean the escort is OP! Here's why: The fight that we are positing here plays only to the escort's strengths - there are almost no holds, snares, disables, etc. In fact the only CC power at all is EWP, and that is countered by Omega and HE.
So, this is just a straight slugging match, which already makes things a bit easier on the escort, as it doesn't have to worry so much about saving Omega to break tractors, etc, and can instead focus all its attention and energy on breaking the cruiser's tank.
On the other end of the spectrum, we have the cruiser, who, while having a perfectly valid and reasonable build, does NOT have a build that is focused as tightly on Damage/tanking in a 1v1 as the escort is. There is no 'spike' damage power to take advantage of the holes in the escort's heal cycle, there are no holds to force the escort to burn Omega defensively, etc. Moreover, because the cruiser is clearly designed to operate with a friend, the cruiser loses a LT lvl BOFF power entirely, and as built, doesn't have much more tanking than the escort does.
Some of this is the cruiser's choice, however, and is not an inherent weakness in the class. For example, the cruiser could ditch EWP for RSP III and in one go double his chances of outright negating the escort's best alpha. Upgrade the E pwr Shields to II and replace the Extend that is not doing any good in this scenario. The list goes on and on... many things could be done to ensure that even if the cruiser can't kill the escort, the escort can never kill the cruiser either.
Ultimately, I think the lesson here is that Escorts might look OP because they are often focused on doing only one thing, while Cruisers and Science ships typically spread themselves out to fill less focused roles. This is the entire root of the problem in my eyes - people often don't want to focus their power selections on the roles cruisers and sci ships are really good at, but they want to fly those ships anyway, so they design perfectly fine 'jack of all trades' builds, but only value the parts of those builds that focused escort builds already do better.
I do know (flying both ships on a regular basis) if those two were to meet the escort shields would likely never drop completely (may get close) and I know that the cruiser can hold off 3 PuG pvp/scorts before the 4th takes it down (I have actually done this).
The only build I'm having issues with right now is the Sci/Sci but I want it for pvp so it'll be a problem
agility acording to my websters pocket dictionary, - "quick, nimble"
its not fairy magic, its called reverse.
Not if said argument is built on an inability to accept that ship classes have roles in this game. If you have an utter lack of imagination and refuse to pay attention to how the best captains in all three classes utilize there ships it's your fault, not Cryptic's. I suspect that's why they ignore hate-filled, childish threads like this.
I could perhaps offer some insights, as a tactical who flies cruisers and sci ships from time to time, or tell you about some of the wonderful things I've seen dedicated/smart full-time sci and eng captains do in their respective ships, but what would be the point? All you guys want is to see escorts turned into a waste of money and time, because it would make you "feel" good just long enough to figure out what to whine about next.
Or is this REALLY just about PvP, AGAIN? Look, it's broken and should never have been bolted to PvE. It would be even less popular than it is without the constant hunt for meatball "work-arounds" that supply an unfair advantage (hence the nerfs we've seen). Until Cryptic gets around to fixing it I suggest some of you guys stay away from PvE, or find something else to play for a while.
And you seriously think that they're going to cripple escorts, turn them into the kings of respawn and in so doing make their firepower useless, just because you and the boys here think you can brow-beat them into morphing every ship into an escort? It's not going to happen, no matter how many threads you start or how many delusional, poorly expressed theories you give birth to.
I'm not sure why your being so hostile. This thread isn't about crippling escorts. The general consensus is some kind of buff for cruisers and science ships to put them on par with escorts damage wise. The original roles that these ships were intended to fill are simply not needed so it would be nice to have some parity. I fly all the ship types, escort included, and I can support a move to make cruisers and science ships more viable for end game content.
first of all pvp in this game is broken so i'll resume only with pve.
in mmos every class has a special role, but there is pve content where that role is needed.
in STO pve=stfs more or less and in stfs all that matters is the dps. higher the dps then faster stf.
you talk about sci and eng officers are runing with wrong builds by their will? i say cryptic made them (and me) to run with that wrong builds!
i don't want to see nerfs or boosts, i just want to see that the sci and eng roles are needed.
Your point about size is totally irrelevant to game balance. That is purely an aesthetic concern, and your inability to separate art issues from games mechanic issues makes you look silly. Not only that, but your oft-touted example of "Adv. Escort" vs "Heavy Cruiser" is wrong on several levels - first, there are any number of reasons why one ship may have different handling characteristics than another, even though they are roughly the same mass. Second, it ignores the fact that the vast majority of escorts are, in fact, much smaller than the cruisers and science vessels. Third, you are ignoring the fact that you are comparing ships of different 'tiers' of ability - in this game one of the fundamental design concepts is you get better ships as you level, which is a reason why a tier 5 ship will outclass a tier 3 ship regardless of their assigned 'classes'.
Now, for the rest of it, I wonder if you understand what you are asking for? You seem to think you are asking for balance, but what you are really seeking to do is change the aesthetic of the game to one you are more comfortable with. I think whether you want to admit it or not, you are simply wanting cruisers to be the damage dealing class, with escorts relegated to being a useless appendage (I eagerly await the chorus of responses saying that would only be fair, since cruisers feel that way now).
Lets say you got what you wanted, and escorts lost a ton of hull and a bunch of damage. How does that keep them viable? They can't do CC, because that's science's job, and they can't tank because you want them to be squishy, and they can't do damage because they are so agile that it would be 'unfair' for them to hit hard and be that fast. So, what do they do? Fly around looking cool while the 'big ships' blow things up? Yeah, that seems to be what you're asking for. That sounds super-duper dumb for me, and for all that you feel cruisers are 'useless' now, that's more a matter of you not feeling rewarded for doing the job they are designed for, and less about them having no actual purpose, as would be true of escorts under your scheme.
Actually, let's back up a step, because you seem to be ignoring that 'firepower' 'healing' and 'agility' totally ignores crowd control abilities and disables, like sci ships bring - how do those fit into your balance schema? Right now you seem to think they have no value, or at least they don't matter when compared to 'agility', and I think you are wrong about that.
Put another way, what you are misunderstanding is that 'agility' is not a 'role' that a ship can play. Being able to move quickly is not, by itself, rewarded in any way by the game. The roles in the game are DPS, Tank, and CC. The small, agile ships do the damage, the large, slow ships are the tanks, and the mid-range ships are the CC support. That is the design of the game, and that is the holy trinity. Agility is part of balance, sure, but it is not valuable in and of itself, and so can't be one of the core things you balance around, because who cares how fast you can get somewhere if you can't do anything worthwhile when you arrive?
No matter if this is a MMO or not, it is just totally unrealistic to have two ships of similar size which do differ so much in their turnrate.
Even if a game is an MMO, it doesn't mean that common sense is not supposed to apply, does it?
What me botthers most about this Escort vs. Cruiser+Science dispute is that Escorts do not even fit into the MMO players so much beloved MMO trinity in the first place. They are completely outside the system if they are able to tank and have the most firepower by far.
In my opinion, putting Star Trek ships into the MMO trinity of stone/paper/scissor is just lazy game design aligned towards the standart MMO player so he doesn't have to get accustomized to a different system.
Cryptics devs obviously didn't shy away from turning Star Trek ships into that system, even if those ships don't belong into those roles or not, just to appeal MMO players.
That's what bothers moe the most by far at this game.
Was it so hard to implement Star Trek ships more ture to how they are supposed to be?
Why not give EVERY ship the capability to survive AND do a satisfying amount of damage, just by different means?
Every ships should have some certain advantages but basicly all endgame ships should be equal strong in survivability and offensive, THAT would be balance .
Those "classes" everyone is refering to, are just a invention to put fantasy characters into a system where they can kill dragons with magic, swords of some other means. This system does not work with Star Trek ships, because Star Trek ships are not specialists, they are generalists and thus "balancing" them in that MMO way is completely out of place.
It just shows the complete ignorance the devs and some MMO players have concering Star Trek.
No matter what i say, the future of this game is that we will have to see even more overpowerd escorts since players flying the Jem Hadar Bug ship will be even more frequently appear.
I just wish there where an alternative Star Trek game, made by people caring about Star Trek.
A group is working on one right now. It's called Star Trek Excalibur. It's the spiritual successor to Bridge Commander and being worked on by modders and some of the old BC crew.
That's the one rule this game consistently breaks. The refits, the retrofits and the fleet versions of ships all bring lower tier ships into the top tier for competitive gameplay. So a tiny little Nova class can now rub shoulders with the Intrepid, the Deep Space Science Vessel, and the 29th Century timeship.
There's no tiers getting the way.
Carry on is his advice. This thread, while entertaining, isn't doing its job. So the last dozen pages or so are best read with popcorn.
If you look how slow they progress, i think maybe my grandson will be able to play it, one day. lol
I think it's a shame that CBS or whoever has the rights for Star Trek, gave the license for such a game to a group of people who just don't care about the universe at all.
I mean STO feels more like a BAD fan mod for a game than an actual game, if you know what i mean. Someone who is making Escorts (little overly armed nimble and yet super survivable ships) the dominating ship type, has obviously not understood how star trek ships are supposed to work.
I think the only thing a Star Trek fan can do, is to hope there will be a much more true Trek game in our lifetime (exaclibur won't be finished by that, realisticly).
For me STO has lost any connection to Star Trek a long time ago. It just shares some names and some ships look like Star Trek ships.
I have seen fan mods for some games that where more true to Star Trek than STO.
(at least ships worked like they where supposed.)
When not using any ability you do no more damage than a beam attack does because of cd.
And also, the escorts are supposed to keep their target in the firing arc, there of their manouverability, lesser firing arcs demand that, and it is tactically sound.
In this game the escort class are escorts, not cruisers. lolz.
Beams are not supposed to give the same or even near the potential of dhc's
There is a difference to the weapons that make them like they are in the game.
Cannons have a lesser firing arc while doing heavier damage.
Beams have a greater firing arc but do lesser damage while it can keep it's sustainability over distance which cannons do not.
It's not irrelevant.
Escorts are built to do alot of damage, there of more tac consoles and a lesser grouping of eng and sci consoles.
Cruisers have another role entirely.
They have alot of eng consoles and sci consoles, but lesser tactical consoles.
They are made to go in to a battle, take alot of beating and keeping a sustainable damage rating, while not high in damage, they do damage.
Also, if the captain knows what he is doing (which is rarely seen in game) giving out heals to the escorts that are in trouble.
For example, in a escort you can sparingly set consoles in the eng and sci slots, so your choices are limited to what you can use on them if you want to survive.
Escort also have another boff slotting, with a com tac, lt.com and some have ens slot.
Cruisers do not have these choices, their boff settings focus mainly on eng stations.
As an example.
Earth bound battleships and cruisers...
You think they have the same abilities and roles?
Or an aircraft carrier, you think that one can do the same things as the above mentioned ships can?
Even in STO the ships are built for acting on their roles.
Semantics have nothing to do with it.
However your understanding of the game is lacking.
I asked you earlier, do the heavy cruiser have the same console slotting and boff slotting as your advanced escort do?
No?
Why is that?
Because they have two different roles to act out on.
Here size do not matter, the heavy cruiser have a greater survivability than your escort does.
It has a greater ability to give out healing, it does not need speed or manouvreability for that.
While your ship has more tactical consoles.
It needs speed and manouverability to act out it's role as an escort ship.
The mechanics is such that there are modifiers on the ship, from the begining without any consoles it has advantages.
All ships do, escorts, cruisers, sci ship.
Ah, so this really ain't about the ships, it's about the dps is it?
It's so unfair right....?
Not the least.
You do not have the healing as a cruisers does in a escort, wait now, that is unfair!
I want that healing too!
And i also want the hull!
And i want the sci tools on my escort too!
The superior what?
Superior damage yes, superior survivability, no, superior sci abilities, no.
It has superior firepower, but that is it.
If you want firepower, you choose that one, if you want superior survivability you choose a cruiser/sci.
The thing is, there is nothing wrong with the ships.
It's the design of the gamecontent that makes the escorts feeling so superior and cruisers dont really need to get in there and do their thing which they are best at.
You all want a class that can tank and deal great damage, so why not redo every ship to be a "Tactically scientific cruiser."
Every captain has no special abilities, and all ships have 3 commander slots, one tactical, one engineering, one science, with 4-4-4 console slots and 4-4 weapon slots.
Yeah, lets make all ships all the same for balance, sounds like fun. They can look like Defiants, Intrepids or the Odyssey.
It would be fun and exciting where every ship is the same right?
Wait...why not take equipment out of the game too? The other having better suited consoles and weapon types is bad too.
It would be bad, bland game if Developers listened to you. And it would delete the KDF too, whose whole advantage is its better ships.
It's like everywhere else in the World, you can justify everything if you make money with it.
The main problem is that STO is being looked at as "just another MMO", ships are made like classes in a Fantasy MMO, so the average MMO player doesn't have to think about anything new.
Especially Cryptics developers seem to be pleased to have their beloved Escorts being totally dominating the game. I wouldn't criticise that, if it where Cryptics universe. But it is not "their" universe, it's Star Trek. If they want it or not things work different in Star Trek as they would in a MMO.
that's what i am saying since 3 years, some 1000 more hitpoints cannot compensate for the almost complete loss of maneuverabilty and firepower.
Since Escorts get a rediculus amount of defense for moving fast, their Survivability is almost better that a cruisers, since they can easily disengage a combat situation, whenever they want (thanks to APO) which a cruiser cannot. (even in PvP)
Not to speak of their disproportional amount of possible firepower.
Compared to this, a cruiser is just a mere target practice. And heaven forbid there where able to fight back, lol.
I think it is more than obvious which ship type the devs prefer.
Just look at the first thing we see at the character selection screen, a Defiant bridge, lol.
It's so rediculus i am almost out of words.
I just find it highly unprofessional for a "professional" game devloper to shamelessly put their own personal favours over the need of a product (Star Trek).
I've couldn't say it better.
Ships without DHCs are completely obsolete, since they just cannot do any satisfying amount of damage to overcome the rediculus resistances and heals a Escort can provide.
Anyway this game does NOT deserve to be called a "Star Trek" game in my opinion.
It is not at all unrealistic - you have no idea what the relative power/mass ratios are of those ships, nor do you know that 'size' and 'mass' are the same thing. Hell, in an world that has 'inertial dampers', it's even easier to hand-wave those issues away. My point remains - this 'size' issue is purely aesthetics, and that is entirely subjective.
As for the tactical benefits of maneuver - yes, agility is good, because it makes you more able to deliver whatever you are supposed to deliver - damage, heals, CC, etc. My point is that being 'fast' is not a role in and of itself, and you and others keep acting like it is.
Incidentally, the I do have a galaxy, and the problem with it, if there is such a thing, is that in solo play it is boring to fly, not that it is unable to complete missions etc. In other words, it's issue is not that it is 'underpowered', it's that it supports a play style I don't like. The key difference between me and other posters is that I don't take that as a personal affront, and instead figure I'll fly the ships I do enjoy instead. Because, you know, I recognize that not every ship/class/role is going to fit all people equally.
DPS classes are almost always 'faster' because they need to get in to deliver damage. They also need to have SOME tanking ability. This is what escorts do. Escorts are NOT super tanks, and no matter how many times you say it on the internet, it won't make it true. Cruisers can VASTLY out-tank an escorts, it's simply that few choose to do so, either because they don't enjoy that role, or because they would rather build a generalist ship that allows them to play solo, instead of a team-focused support ship.
In my opinion, much of the 'STO should be this instead' is the product of lazy minds who are unable to conceive of the fact that saying 'there is a better way of perfect balance that pleases everyone' is far, far easier than actually doing it, nor can they understand that things that appeal to them personally may not appeal to the mass market that games need to survive.
Or, put another way: Yes, Cryptic designed an MMO so that it would appeal to fans of that genre. Sorry you're not one of them.
What bothers ME the most is people who are so wrapped up in their own preferences that they label every minor issue they have as 'the most important'. But that's nit-picking. My next pet-peeve is people who talk about making ships 'true' to what we see on screen, since that's basically impossible. The capabilities of the ships on the screen were dictated not by any consistent rules, they were dictated by the needs of the plot. Thus some days a Galaxy class was a super-ship that could save the Federation single-handed, while on others it was a ridiculous underdog versus the 'enemy of the week'.
Again, saying 'there should be ways to make them do the same amount of damage, just differently' is far, far easier than actually coming up with such a system. Besides, even if you did, there would still end up being one 'method' of damage dealing that was 'better' than the others, and you'd have the same problem all over again.
Finally, right now, all ship classes can contribute effectively to endgame content. If you can't make your cruiser perform a role in an STF, that is on you, full stop. If you are complaining that you want to be able to do more damage so that you can finish STFs even faster than you already are, well, then use the damage dealing ship type. If you are annoyed because escorts can avoid being killed while doing more damage than you, maybe you should look at what cruisers can do, and see how to use that as a strength. If you can't find some sort of joy in being a team tank/heal supporter, then you are in the wrong ship.
Oh, I didn't realize that the real Starfleet ships that really exist in the real world had really really stats that are really different than this game. How dare devs use the wrong kind of make-believe to build their game! Oh... wait.
Also, Starfleet ships are ABSOLUTELY specialists = Defiant, Prometheus, Olympic, Oberth, Nova, etc. All of those ships had specific roles to fill, and were designed specifically to perform them. I think what you meant to say was 'Some Starfleet ships, particularly cruisers like the Galaxy, were designed as generalists so that they could do any job with some faculty, but none of them perfectly'. Huh, sounds a lot like the build we already saw in this thread, but that's probably a crazy co-incidence.
I do too, so you could go be disappointed with them instead of constantly posting here.