You're saying that escorts are op? or are you saying the Kumari is op? And doesn't that mean again that you are blaming the ship class for one vehicle, and the vehicle for one weapon type?
All I did was to answer your previous question and the Kumari does innately out-DPS every other escort by means of using 5 DHCs over 4 DHCs.
In a spreadsheet 8 Beam arrays will out damage 4 DHCs but the DHCs will out-DPS the beams per cycle
Power: 155
8 Beam arrays (Mk X common, no consoles)
Damage per cycle (32 shots): 17,742.66
DPS: 3,548.53
Power: 155
4 DHCs (Mk X Common, no consoles)
Damage per cycle (16 shots): 14,766.05
DPS: 4,992.02
Power:155
4 DHCs (Mk X Common, no consoles)
Damage per 32 shots: 29,532.10
DPS: 9,844.04
However looking at this you notice that for the same number of shots the 8 beam broadsider does in his cycle the DHC user does 66% extra damage.
(figures may not be perfect but they are pretty close, within 100 damage)
I set the scenario up for 155 power because it was easier than modifying the entire beam damage calculation formula to read out for 125 but the point remains the same
let clarify this all up here. yes escorts are extremely overpowered, yes capitol ships need to be buffed or simply removed from the game. no not all cruisers are obsolete . no that i have said that let me say this. there is no, abosolutly no federation cruiser in the game period that can out damage or out dps or out pvp any escort, to say they can is just simple denial of the facts. Kdf on the other hand have cruisers that can stand toe to toe with escorts all day. even the borta built right is extremely dpsey and tanky, pretty nicely done. the kdf cruisers realy dont need any help, what needs help is the fed cruisers. the slow turn rate combined with a total lack of killing power make them easy victims for anyone flying a escort. sure this was not always the case , year ago, things were a bit different. now , if ur a fed flying a fed cruiser then i welcome you to challenge me or anyone else who has half a clue about dps to a 1v1 pvp and see what happens. you want to play a effective cruiser, get a galor, or role kdf end of story
let clarify this all up here. yes escorts are extremely overpowered, yes capitol ships need to be buffed or simply removed from the game. no not all cruisers are obsolete . no that i have said that let me say this. there is no, abosolutly no federation cruiser in the game period that can out damage or out dps or out pvp any escort, to say they can is just simple denial of the facts. Kdf on the other hand have cruisers that can stand toe to toe with escorts all day. even the borta built right is extremely dpsey and tanky, pretty nicely done. the kdf cruisers realy dont need any help, what needs help is the fed cruisers. the slow turn rate combined with a total lack of killing power make them easy victims for anyone flying a escort. sure this was not always the case , year ago, things were a bit different. now , if ur a fed flying a fed cruiser then i welcome you to challenge me or anyone else who has half a clue about dps to a 1v1 pvp and see what happens. you want to play a effective cruiser, get a galor, or role kdf end of story
Um... PVP is not the main focus of this game. Its mostly a PVE game.
PVP is an addition, like crafting.
Doesn't matter. PvP is where you find out how things balance against each other; and where the problems are. Without that, you've just got folks with their head stuck in the sand, insisting everything is fine because they can't see the problems.
The PvP crowd's persistent testing and number grinding keep turning up bugs, display errors, and other assorted issues, that even the devs themselves didn't know about until the PvPers convinced them to check it for themselves.
Doesn't matter. PvP is where you find out how things balance against each other;
The development team has focused its balance passes on how players function against the game's PVE content. There hasn't been a PVP change made in ages, because not enough players engage in PVP to justify allocating the development team's time or resources to it.
That's a terribly redundant statement. Skill is BO Skill. All you're doing at your keyboard is pushing buttons. That's muscle memory trained over time and doesn't involve any skill on your part. The skill in "it's skill" is the BO skills.
Which are in dire need of development attention when you look at how low level BOFF skills and share cooldowns work.
The general consensus of the statement is that Escorts are OP, They are not. In this statement you are stating that the weapons makes the ship OP not the Ship itself. That is the only argument that anyone seems to have when it comes to Escorts, that their weapons make them op but without the DHC's Escorts would be laughingstocks. So it is by the facts of your own math and numbers that you have to admit that Escorts are not OP but the weapons are. if 4 DHC's did that much damage compared to 8 beams, ouch, more or not it's a quarter of the damage at half the facings. Crazy high.
Half right, half wrong. Some ships have more hull than others of their class. Others have stronger shield mods. And some have differing power allocations (most notably cruisers). So some cruisers will do more damage than others, some escorts will be able to get smacked harder than others, and some sci ships will have stronger shields than others. But if you give them all mk 1 white gear, they are VERY similar in ability (if you take away BOffs and just have them smack each other like low level NPCs). But the differences are tiny, but VERY noticeable combined with skills.
This has nothing to do with DPS, which is the reason for escorts being OP as stated in the original argument. If you then put up strange things like this it makes the argument even weaker by saying that some ships have different shields and hull ratings making them op? And the damage, subsystem upgrades all of that is replicable so that's a moot point. my ship has +40 weapons, plus 36 shields and plus 24 to engines and aux so i man innately better then escorts cruisers and sci's does that mean that I am op in an escort with beams?
All of this goes to confirm my point that escorts are not op, their weapons are just stronger. If cruisers could use them then what would be the argument? Would escorts still be op or will it be because they are faster they are op?
If Beams were the only weapon then I doubt we would see escorts because if it was not for DHC's escorts would quickly be considered bust.
There have been many threads on this but mums the word at PW. Every patch makes escorts more and more powerful and cruisers and science ships more and more obsolete. I rarely ever see a science ship anymore and it seems that the only people that play cruisers are those that have sentimental attachments to them (like me).
I was one of the originals that started this game on the first day and chose an engineer captain. Oh, that I had chosen a tac captain like 90% of players today are playing.
Tactical/escort captains have insane damage, healing, maneuverability, and survivability now. There is no upside to playing a cruiser and its a cold day in *&^*&* when you would play a science ship over an escort.
I dont need to go into specifics. There are more threads on this topic than you can shake a plasma injector at, but this needs to be addressed, soon.
Rebalance the ships- give them all roles once again. Nerf escorts, buff cruisers, and really buff science ships. It is desperately needed.
OP, are you ever going to learn the game? Are you ever going to learn the intricacies and nuances that make this game work. I know, I know.. you say that you do, but I already know that you don't because of posts that you make like the one I just read.
Everyone who knows me knows that I am no slouch when it comes to PvP, yet, I was in Ker'rat yesterday and fighting against a Galaxy-X. Even with my powerful weapons, I could not put a dent in his shields.
I KNOW that you don't know what you are doing, because every day I witness a battle between an escort and a cruiser that proves threads like the one you started, wrong.
PM me if you want to know the name of the cruiser pilot.. err actually pilots (plural) because I know quite a few that can survive multiple escorts at the same time..
I really wish you would quit ruining the game for many people by refusing to learn (i.e. being lazy) and asking for nerfs. Part of playing in PvP requires that you use your brain against other real brains. Please start doing so, because I guarantee that you can survive 3 tac escorts for a very long time.
You want to learn PvP? Come to Ker'rat and observe. Don't you dare leave it.. no matter how many times you die!!!! You gotta die alot before you can start surviving. Post in zone a specific question and I guarantee that someone will answer you.
That's right.. come to Ker'rat, grit your teeth, and take it like a man and do it every single day, because I guarantee you that you will come out a better PvPer...
Do it, i dare you!
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
The development team has focused its balance passes on how players function against the game's PVE content. There hasn't been a PVP change made in ages, because not enough players engage in PVP to justify allocating the development team's time or resources to it.
Bort confers with the PvP guys on a variety of issues; most recently FAW and Tachyon mines.
I addressed that as Boffs, Doffs, and Captain skill(s). No ship can out dps another in any way or form if it was not for this. No escort is greater then an escort, no sci better then a sci, no cruiser then a cruiser. They are divided by their consoles, and weapons types, if they posses neither then they are the same. Unless they have add-ons like pets, or lances they are not more damaging then their contemporaries.
That is a totally moot point since you can't run a ship without a captain.
Boffs you can be without, doffs the same.
The respective ship type do all have the same power output, with we aint't talking unmanned hulks floating around in empty space doing nothing.
You can even be without weapons and then you do Zero damage.
But if you meet a captain in pvp, the same ship type, same console slotting, same weapons same boffs, doffs do you really think you will do equal or even the same amount of damage to eachother?
As i said earlier, the ship is only a part of it, the ship(s) all have a power setting, a total amout of power.
No one argues that.
We all know why other escorts can be better than other ship types, even better than other escorts for that matter.
That has to do with skills and skill settings.
The ship is only part of the tool, not the entire tool by itself.
Bort confers with the PvP guys on a variety of issues; most recently FAW and Tachyon mines.
Beam Fire at Will? Heh. I'll refrain from further comment since it would be a huge tangent. But I remain confident in my assessment that changes to BOFF powers, including that one, have been motivated by tweaks to PVE encounters. That's primarily because I remember how Fire at Will worked at launch and how and why it was initially changed way back when.
I applaud the communication you are citing, but I'm not convinced PVP concerns are driving the allocation of resources to tweak BOFF powes. Then. Or now.
That is a totally moot point since you can't run a ship without a captain.
Boffs you can be without, doffs the same.
The respective ship type do all have the same power output, with we aint't talking unmanned hulks floating around in empty space doing nothing.
You can even be without weapons and then you do Zero damage.
But if you meet a captain in pvp, the same ship type, same console slotting, same weapons same boffs, doffs do you really think you will do equal or even the same amount of damage to eachother?
As i said earlier, the ship is only a part of it, the ship(s) all have a power setting, a total amout of power.
No one argues that.
We all know why other escorts can be better than other ship types, even better than other escorts for that matter.
That has to do with skills and skill settings.
The ship is only part of the tool, not the entire tool by itself.
This whole thread is about a Ship/Ship Class being op. What I was stating is the fact that a ship class cannot be op. If anything if you remove DHC's Escorts go from kings to jokers. Put beams on an escort and fight a cruiser, then who would be op?
So you're basically proving our point that a SHIP cannot be OP. Since each person makes their choice of ship and ship weapons.
At some point you have to get over the idea of a ship being op since there are no one ship better then any other one when you factor in the same weapons and armor.
This whole thread is about a Ship/Ship Class being op. What I was stating is the fact that a ship class cannot be op. If anything if you remove DHC's Escorts go from kings to jokers. Put beams on an escort and fight a cruiser, then who would be op?
So you're basically proving our point that a SHIP cannot be OP. Since each person makes their choice of ship and ship weapons.
At some point you have to get over the idea of a ship being op since there are no one ship better then any other one when you factor in the same weapons and armor.
I've never claimed any ship to be OP.
I have proven that the ship in it self is not the whole tool.
As i said, you can not steer your ship without a captain in it.
You can take out weapons and make exactly Zero Damage.
The ship has a base power that you can help, no matter what power level the ship has, the skill settings you choose for yourself will affect the ship.
WE_ALL_KNOW_ that all ships have a base power level, that is not in dispute.
But saying that all ships of the same type and tier will make the same dmg/dps is completely wrong.
That only works if there is no captain in the ship, no extra consoles and the exact same weapons.
And how often do you see a ship fitted like that IN game?
So, IN fact you can have lousy dps in a ship, when someone else have the same ship as you and make thousands more dmg per hit than you do.
This is something i've seen alot when parsing combat logs, both for pve and pvp.
Same ship types different damage.
So, in fact, you can have lousy, good, better and best when it comes to ships.
But that is because the captain affects the ship and makes it better, just as tactical consoles will increase hit damage.
You enhance your ship and make it better.
Same with cruisers, sci ships and escorts.
Another piece of the combat balancing equation are the profession skills and ship BOFF layouts. How can an optimized cruiser possibly hope to match an optimized escort when a huge bulk of engineering skills are strictly defensive, while tacticals enjoy the opposite extreme?
I did advocate having certain shared crossover-skills that were not tied to any single profession to lessen ship role-polarization, but this idea was largely opposed and dismissed by this forum.
Lol you say all of this as if I am specifically addressing you, when I am not. I am simply telling you that your reasoning has nothing to do with what the thread is about. You're arguing with me the same fact I have been stating since I joined this thread when it was made.
Everything you are saying I have said before so either you did not read the entire thread and just jump to weird conclusions or you're just randomly speaking. I'm not sure which one it is.
But again I am not addressing you other then to say, the term "Without a captain" is asinine. There are no ghost ships in this game as far as I know. Every ship is the same as a ship of it's class if you strip away all the consoles and the items and the captains. SO their is no OP ship. A Miranda cannot out dps a patrol escort. There is no proof to this statement other then what people have seen in cannon.
We all know that a ship is a ship and it's a hunk of metal without a captain. The thread is stating that escorts are OP and I am disproving that fact in a general way, not singling you out as an object of my terminology. Though I don't mind, if you want to continue to say the obvious to me. Though it would help a bit if you read back a bit to see where your misunderstanding came from.
The thread is stating that escorts are OP and I am disproving that fact
...and you are doing a terrible job. The ships in this game are not created equal and while I agree that captain skill level plays a major part in the success of a ship it's not the only factor. You even made the point for the op when you mentioned the removal of dual heavy cannons from escorts making them a joke. Cruisers cannot equip dual heavy cannons (other then the dread and the klink battlecruisers, but that point is moot since this thread is discussing fedside) so they are forced to use the less damaging and less efficient beam arrays. This in combination with maneuverability issues, low lvl engineering skills being all that is needed to tank, and other factors are what make escorts significantly more powerful then science ships and cruisers.
To illustrate my point lets look at the most powerful science ship fedside. What do you think it is? Well I'll say arguably it's the vesta. Why? Because it's basically a escort/sci ship hybrid. If it was stuck using beam arrays it would just be another loser science ship with some fancy consoles. Escorts and dual heavy cannons go hand in hand because they are the only ships (outside a few special cases) that can equip these uber weapons. That one fact alone makes them, I wouldn't say OP, but definitely more productive damage dealers then their other two counterparts and it's a problem that should be addressed.
and everyone is saying no you're wrong, escorts are op and then saying the exact same thing I just said to prove that escorts are not op but the weapons they use are.
The same thing that you are saying that I am doing a horrible job explaining you just said the exact same thing I have been saying for the last few pages.
Maybe I am the one thats not understanding something here. The weapons a ship uses does not mean the ship is op it just means the weapons the ship is using is. Maybe I'm the odd ball here because it makes sense to me because I can distinguish one from the other. The Galaxy can use DHC's but it's not op? Even if it has all the upsides of a cruiser, a battle cloak, and the phaser lance? But a patrol Escort which can use only DHC's is op?
I just can't see how people cannot distinguish the two. Between a ship and a ships weapons system. At this point it's just all dissolving into mindless bickering.
Unless someone can prove to me without a shadow of a doubt that an Escort with the same weapons and same equipment can still out dps a cruiser I refuse to believe that escorts are op. There is no way an escort can out dps a cruiser with beams. Then does that statement alone prove that the escort is innocent and the dhc's are guilty? So if then that statement is also correct then doesn't that also prove that escorts are not Over Powered and that this entire thread is incorrect?
That is the only thing I have interest in solving, is showing that if you remove DHC's from the loop this conversation would not happen so with hope that will end the entire mythological dogma that Cruisers are gimped and Escorts are godly.
(SIgh) No matter who it is or how i say it I am sure the next person in line will say, no, you're wrong, Escorts are OP because they can equip dhcs and do such and such damage and I will facepalm myself and cringe as i die on the inside again.
That in it self may also be true but i sense i'll have to back out of this discussion soon.... the headache of trying to unsuccessfully explain this concept is beginning to irk me.
Op... what is op?
If a human fights a human they are on equal terms. but here is an anology and with hope it will not become guilt by association.
Which will win? unarmed to a knife? Knife to a hand gun, handgun to an assault rifle? Assault rifle to a sniper Rifle, sniper rifle to a nuke?
Does the human become op by choosing any of these weapons or does he remain a human USING a more powerful weapon? Obviously he stays human but uses a more powerful weapon.... So in the end an escort is the weakest ship in this game if it was not for DHC's and I'm not even arguing for or against DHC's I don't even like them i think they are Klink weapons and should be trash to Feds. But if you remove them then escorts will die out because they are not strong enough to do anything alone. What role can they fill. Cruisers and sci ships will murder them for kicks. So does that prove my statement correct? Or are we still believing that deeply ingrained propaganda that escorts are op?
I can make my beam escorts do hella damage so i don't care if they remove them or not to stop these sort of threads from propagating, I do not need them to be effective. The only I win button I need in this game is the one that appears when I log onto shard. ENGAGE.
We do not need a nerfing or buffing virus in this game. It will be tantamount to a gaming holocaust. Specially when the person you are hanging is absolutely innocent and the guilty party gets away scott free.
That in it self may also be true but i sense i'll have to back out of this discussion soon.... the headache of trying to unsuccessfully explain this concept is beginning to irk me.
Op... what is op?
If a human fights a human they are on equal terms. but here is an anology and with hope it will not become guilt by association.
Which will win? unarmed to a knife? Knife to a hand gun, handgun to an assault rifle? Assault rifle to a sniper Rifle, sniper rifle to a nuke?
Does the human become op by choosing any of these weapons or does he remain a human USING a more powerful weapon? Obviously he stays human but uses a more powerful weapon.... So in the end an escort is the weakest ship in this game if it was not for DHC's and I'm not even arguing for or against DHC's I don't even like them i think they are Klink weapons and should be trash to Feds. But if you remove them then escorts will die out because they are not strong enough to do anything alone. What role can they fill. Cruisers and sci ships will murder them for kicks. So does that prove my statement correct? Or are we still believing that deeply ingrained propaganda that escorts are op?
I can make my beam escorts do hella damage so i don't care if they remove them or not to stop these sort of threads from propagating, I do not need them to be effective. The only I win button I need in this game is the one that appears when I log onto shard. ENGAGE.
We do not need a nerfing or buffing virus in this game. It will be tantamount to a gaming holocaust. Specially when the person you are hanging is absolutely innocent and the guilty party gets away scott free.
It's not only the cannons themselves that make the escort op. It's the maneuverability to bring them to bare against a target as well as the bridge officer stations to support the cannons. Thats why it's the escorts themselves that are so powerful. Even if fed-cruisers could use dual heavy cannons they would be completely ineffective. Look at the galaxy dreadnought. it has neither the maneuverability nor the tac stations to use them effectively.]
and everyone is saying no you're wrong, escorts are op and then saying the exact same thing I just said to prove that escorts are not op but the weapons they use are.
The same thing that you are saying that I am doing a horrible job explaining you just said the exact same thing I have been saying for the last few pages.
Maybe I am the one thats not understanding something here. The weapons a ship uses does not mean the ship is op it just means the weapons the ship is using is. Maybe I'm the odd ball here because it makes sense to me because I can distinguish one from the other. The Galaxy can use DHC's but it's not op? Even if it has all the upsides of a cruiser, a battle cloak, and the phaser lance? But a patrol Escort which can use only DHC's is op?
I just can't see how people cannot distinguish the two. Between a ship and a ships weapons system. At this point it's just all dissolving into mindless bickering.
Unless someone can prove to me without a shadow of a doubt that an Escort with the same weapons and same equipment can still out dps a cruiser I refuse to believe that escorts are op. There is no way an escort can out dps a cruiser with beams. Then does that statement alone prove that the escort is innocent and the dhc's are guilty? So if then that statement is also correct then doesn't that also prove that escorts are not Over Powered and that this entire thread is incorrect?
That is the only thing I have interest in solving, is showing that if you remove DHC's from the loop this conversation would not happen so with hope that will end the entire mythological dogma that Cruisers are gimped and Escorts are godly.
(SIgh) No matter who it is or how i say it I am sure the next person in line will say, no, you're wrong, Escorts are OP because they can equip dhcs and do such and such damage and I will facepalm myself and cringe as i die on the inside again.
As you say the gal-x can use cannons but no one's saying that's OP. Because it isn't. But if cannons are OP then surely the gal-x would be too?
If Escorts are OP it's because they can use cannons effectively, which is the difference between them and the Cruisers that can equip cannons. Cruisers just can't get the most out of them.
At the end of the day the most effective way to complete most of the games content is overwhelming damage; and that's escort and cannons, with a tac captain.
Don't get me wrong though. I'm not advocating nerfs. But other MMOs don't normally have end game content where you can complete it with just a team of damage dealers. Because that leaves everyone else out of a job.
I'm rather see positive changes such as buffs to cruisers and especially sci-ships rather than nerfs though. Sci is worse off than cruisers imo.
It's just got to be balanced or tac captains such as myself will just hop into cruisers/sci and you'll have a new OP. Tac captains in Sci ships caused sci powers to get nerfed in the first place.
I lean to the DHCs are not OP so much as the other weapons in ingame are TRIBBLE poor against current high healing effects ingame.
I agree with this, but then.... if weapons overall (overall because DHCs are affected like any other weapon even if they are still usefull) got an upgrade the value of the high level rep passives/gear and their healing and defensive effects would be instantly lost, as would any motivation by players to get them.
Unlike WoW, STO does not get a constant release of new tougher content to justify previous gear becoming obsolete. The most it gets is the Borg get buffed a little (by design or the code magically rewriting itself so that one shot invisitorps increase in number) and instead of running challenging (or at least interesting/new) content we'd be expected to grind the same 5 missions or years old content that we've already run a few thousand times....
Cryptic has painted itself into a corner, but if it buffs weapon's baseline (or releases MK 13 weapons with a corresponding new grind, or even at an inflated Dil cost) and undoes all the work people have put in the PR disaster would be astronomical. It wouldn't be if STO was like other MMOs and had new interesting (whether grind or not) content now and then, but as a churn game its content comes sooo slowly, even Blizz is faster.
I'd say their best bet is to include serious DPS passives as rewards in the next one or two rep grinds.
I'm a tac captain in a defiant retrofit, sure it is squishy, I value more firepower over protection.
I find Cruisers to be too slow for my liking, sure they can take a beating, but a good team of cruisers and escorts can get the job done effectively, it's down to player skill not the ship.
Only a bad workman blames his tools.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Lol you say all of this as if I am specifically addressing you, when I am not. I am simply telling you that your reasoning has nothing to do with what the thread is about. You're arguing with me the same fact I have been stating since I joined this thread when it was made.
Everything you are saying I have said before so either you did not read the entire thread and just jump to weird conclusions or you're just randomly speaking. I'm not sure which one it is.
But again I am not addressing you other then to say, the term "Without a captain" is asinine. There are no ghost ships in this game as far as I know. Every ship is the same as a ship of it's class if you strip away all the consoles and the items and the captains. SO their is no OP ship. A Miranda cannot out dps a patrol escort. There is no proof to this statement other then what people have seen in cannon.
We all know that a ship is a ship and it's a hunk of metal without a captain. The thread is stating that escorts are OP and I am disproving that fact in a general way, not singling you out as an object of my terminology. Though I don't mind, if you want to continue to say the obvious to me. Though it would help a bit if you read back a bit to see where your misunderstanding came from.
Oh no, i am not misunderstanding you, i am just objecting to your statement of equalness with ship types and power output.
If they sit in the C-store there is no difference between them, if you have them unused in a ship slot there is no difference between them.
And this is how the ships work in-game?
Not really.
I agree with you, i just object to this statement of yours.
NO SHIP CAN INNATELY CAUSE MORE DPS THEN ANOTHER OF it's type. I have no idea where people get this from.
People get this idea from in-game experience.
Meeting ships that are more powerful than their own.
It's a moot point comparing ships how they are in the c-store, how they are when they are un-used in a ship slot.
It's not those ships people see in pve or pvp.
All in all, Escort do the most damage, they are just best for it.
There's no escaping that.
It's the same with cruisers, they are the best tankers.
It's the same with sci ships...Well they are rare those that can do heavy damage with sci abilities, but they do exist.
Oh btw, i do not run cannons on my escort...
And that works just fine :-)
It's not only the cannons themselves that make the escort op. It's the maneuverability to bring them to bare against a target as well as the bridge officer stations to support the cannons. Thats why it's the escorts themselves that are so powerful. Even if fed-cruisers could use dual heavy cannons they would be completely ineffective. Look at the galaxy dreadnought. it has neither the maneuverability nor the tac stations to use them effectively.]
dying on the inside again.
So first it's DHC's make escorts op, now it's maneuverability that mass them op?
So natuaral law makes them OP now?
If you compare a motorcycle to a Semi wouldn't the motorcycle be faster and more maneuverable?
A cruiser is huge and hulking and an escort is small and nimble. But maneuverability and speed means nothing without stopping power. If you put BEAMS on an escort and BEAMS on a cruiser the cruiser doesn't have to move at all it can sit in place and brutalize and harass the weaker escort until it dies. Isn't that proof alone?
So while were making these I win wish list what else do we need to make cruiser op since the only proof of their inadequacies is dhc's on an escort and it's maneuverability. I don't get it. Klinks have 1-2 more turn on their ships and they are amazing in their cruisers and have no problem with killing escorts but escorts are op?
Let's make their turn rates like that of destroyers, in crease their damage to match their op healing capabilities, add a few DHC's for kicks and one or two more tac consoles, that way we can make up for the UP escort that uses OP weapons and OP natural abilities to be faster then a hulking huge ship that needs 2000+ people to run it effectively.
Everybody is skipping right over what I am saying and going right back to DHC's that is not proof that escorts are op it is proof that the weapons they use ARE.
PRove to me that escorts with the same weapons and items as a cruiser will still win and I will shut up in a heartbeat. Isn't that what op is? To win no matter the circumstances. Don't mention DHC's, go with total beams and prove to me that the escort is op.
If I am op with them then I am op without them correct? Then just prove it. It's not hard been saying it the whole time and everyone's reply is but it uses DHC's effectively. Seriously? Because it can turn and is faster because it is lighter and more maneuverable that makes it op? Why wouldn't it be able to turn? You're comparing moving a rock to moving a mountain. Talk about nitpicking.
I will say this one more time and hopefully it will penetrate. Read carefully. The escort is not OP, but the weapons the captain choices to use is.
I will continue to say this until someone proves me wrong, because it is the only statement that from the gate proves you wrong. I am not saying learn to play, I am not saying buff, I am not saying nerf, I am saying that this belief is wrong. Escorts are not op if anything they are under powered. If you removed DHC's what do you have? Nothing.
I personally refuse to use DHC's anyhow for a standard and I don't mind using beams I had to learn how to survive with my CHOICES if they are limited by the system or my own pride, I accepted it.
Is this something you too can accept? That you have your limitations and all you can do to prove your worth is surpass them. Don't look at someone else plate and whine that they have more portions then you, becayse at least you can eat. Cruisers are still pivotal in this game and if you don't understand that then maybe I've been around elites too long and I'm spoiled by their talent. I've heard them laugh at escorts before even when I killed them but I have never ever heard them say that they were op. They said I was lucky. And I think they are right.
I have no idea what else to say at this point.... I've gone through the whole gauntlet of emotions atm. From misunderstanding, to pity, to shame, to confused, and now it's rolling on to anger and disgust. So before I get to that point I would rather back out and thank my lucky stars I reached 10 post. The limit and no matter what I can't reply to this thread anymore. Phew. Did my best to prove my point but people are still tightly bound to the ideology that what makes an escort is DHC's and any other weapon on them is a fail. Even the Cruisers captains who are complaining about it being op refuse to separate dhc's from escorts. So there is nothing to say about it any more. If you feel that escorts are op then I feel bad for you. All you see is one road to victory and you want to be on that road doing what the motorcycles are doing even while you're driving a hummer. With that kind of thought process you don't deserve any sympathy or understanding. You will never get far looking where someone else is going. A lot of stumbling blocks coming more and more but as long as you're looking this way and not ahead of you then lol i hope you like the taste of the ground.
Comments
All I did was to answer your previous question and the Kumari does innately out-DPS every other escort by means of using 5 DHCs over 4 DHCs.
In a spreadsheet 8 Beam arrays will out damage 4 DHCs but the DHCs will out-DPS the beams per cycle
Power: 155
8 Beam arrays (Mk X common, no consoles)
Damage per cycle (32 shots): 17,742.66
DPS: 3,548.53
Power: 155
4 DHCs (Mk X Common, no consoles)
Damage per cycle (16 shots): 14,766.05
DPS: 4,992.02
Power:155
4 DHCs (Mk X Common, no consoles)
Damage per 32 shots: 29,532.10
DPS: 9,844.04
However looking at this you notice that for the same number of shots the 8 beam broadsider does in his cycle the DHC user does 66% extra damage.
(figures may not be perfect but they are pretty close, within 100 damage)
I set the scenario up for 155 power because it was easier than modifying the entire beam damage calculation formula to read out for 125 but the point remains the same
PVP is an addition, like crafting.
Wrong: It's skill, build, BO skill.
Doesn't matter. PvP is where you find out how things balance against each other; and where the problems are. Without that, you've just got folks with their head stuck in the sand, insisting everything is fine because they can't see the problems.
The PvP crowd's persistent testing and number grinding keep turning up bugs, display errors, and other assorted issues, that even the devs themselves didn't know about until the PvPers convinced them to check it for themselves.
or like the "second faction"?
10k DPS Vesta threads: 1; 2
The development team has focused its balance passes on how players function against the game's PVE content. There hasn't been a PVP change made in ages, because not enough players engage in PVP to justify allocating the development team's time or resources to it.
That's a terribly redundant statement. Skill is BO Skill. All you're doing at your keyboard is pushing buttons. That's muscle memory trained over time and doesn't involve any skill on your part. The skill in "it's skill" is the BO skills.
Which are in dire need of development attention when you look at how low level BOFF skills and share cooldowns work.
This has nothing to do with DPS, which is the reason for escorts being OP as stated in the original argument. If you then put up strange things like this it makes the argument even weaker by saying that some ships have different shields and hull ratings making them op? And the damage, subsystem upgrades all of that is replicable so that's a moot point. my ship has +40 weapons, plus 36 shields and plus 24 to engines and aux so i man innately better then escorts cruisers and sci's does that mean that I am op in an escort with beams?
All of this goes to confirm my point that escorts are not op, their weapons are just stronger. If cruisers could use them then what would be the argument? Would escorts still be op or will it be because they are faster they are op?
If Beams were the only weapon then I doubt we would see escorts because if it was not for DHC's escorts would quickly be considered bust.
OP, are you ever going to learn the game? Are you ever going to learn the intricacies and nuances that make this game work. I know, I know.. you say that you do, but I already know that you don't because of posts that you make like the one I just read.
Everyone who knows me knows that I am no slouch when it comes to PvP, yet, I was in Ker'rat yesterday and fighting against a Galaxy-X. Even with my powerful weapons, I could not put a dent in his shields.
I KNOW that you don't know what you are doing, because every day I witness a battle between an escort and a cruiser that proves threads like the one you started, wrong.
PM me if you want to know the name of the cruiser pilot.. err actually pilots (plural) because I know quite a few that can survive multiple escorts at the same time..
I really wish you would quit ruining the game for many people by refusing to learn (i.e. being lazy) and asking for nerfs. Part of playing in PvP requires that you use your brain against other real brains. Please start doing so, because I guarantee that you can survive 3 tac escorts for a very long time.
You want to learn PvP? Come to Ker'rat and observe. Don't you dare leave it.. no matter how many times you die!!!! You gotta die alot before you can start surviving. Post in zone a specific question and I guarantee that someone will answer you.
That's right.. come to Ker'rat, grit your teeth, and take it like a man and do it every single day, because I guarantee you that you will come out a better PvPer...
Do it, i dare you!
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
Bort confers with the PvP guys on a variety of issues; most recently FAW and Tachyon mines.
That is a totally moot point since you can't run a ship without a captain.
Boffs you can be without, doffs the same.
The respective ship type do all have the same power output, with we aint't talking unmanned hulks floating around in empty space doing nothing.
You can even be without weapons and then you do Zero damage.
But if you meet a captain in pvp, the same ship type, same console slotting, same weapons same boffs, doffs do you really think you will do equal or even the same amount of damage to eachother?
As i said earlier, the ship is only a part of it, the ship(s) all have a power setting, a total amout of power.
No one argues that.
We all know why other escorts can be better than other ship types, even better than other escorts for that matter.
That has to do with skills and skill settings.
The ship is only part of the tool, not the entire tool by itself.
Beam Fire at Will? Heh. I'll refrain from further comment since it would be a huge tangent. But I remain confident in my assessment that changes to BOFF powers, including that one, have been motivated by tweaks to PVE encounters. That's primarily because I remember how Fire at Will worked at launch and how and why it was initially changed way back when.
I applaud the communication you are citing, but I'm not convinced PVP concerns are driving the allocation of resources to tweak BOFF powes. Then. Or now.
This whole thread is about a Ship/Ship Class being op. What I was stating is the fact that a ship class cannot be op. If anything if you remove DHC's Escorts go from kings to jokers. Put beams on an escort and fight a cruiser, then who would be op?
So you're basically proving our point that a SHIP cannot be OP. Since each person makes their choice of ship and ship weapons.
At some point you have to get over the idea of a ship being op since there are no one ship better then any other one when you factor in the same weapons and armor.
I've never claimed any ship to be OP.
I have proven that the ship in it self is not the whole tool.
As i said, you can not steer your ship without a captain in it.
You can take out weapons and make exactly Zero Damage.
The ship has a base power that you can help, no matter what power level the ship has, the skill settings you choose for yourself will affect the ship.
WE_ALL_KNOW_ that all ships have a base power level, that is not in dispute.
But saying that all ships of the same type and tier will make the same dmg/dps is completely wrong.
That only works if there is no captain in the ship, no extra consoles and the exact same weapons.
And how often do you see a ship fitted like that IN game?
So, IN fact you can have lousy dps in a ship, when someone else have the same ship as you and make thousands more dmg per hit than you do.
This is something i've seen alot when parsing combat logs, both for pve and pvp.
Same ship types different damage.
So, in fact, you can have lousy, good, better and best when it comes to ships.
But that is because the captain affects the ship and makes it better, just as tactical consoles will increase hit damage.
You enhance your ship and make it better.
Same with cruisers, sci ships and escorts.
There are No OP ship.
There are No UP ship.
I did advocate having certain shared crossover-skills that were not tied to any single profession to lessen ship role-polarization, but this idea was largely opposed and dismissed by this forum.
Lol you say all of this as if I am specifically addressing you, when I am not. I am simply telling you that your reasoning has nothing to do with what the thread is about. You're arguing with me the same fact I have been stating since I joined this thread when it was made.
Everything you are saying I have said before so either you did not read the entire thread and just jump to weird conclusions or you're just randomly speaking. I'm not sure which one it is.
But again I am not addressing you other then to say, the term "Without a captain" is asinine. There are no ghost ships in this game as far as I know. Every ship is the same as a ship of it's class if you strip away all the consoles and the items and the captains. SO their is no OP ship. A Miranda cannot out dps a patrol escort. There is no proof to this statement other then what people have seen in cannon.
We all know that a ship is a ship and it's a hunk of metal without a captain. The thread is stating that escorts are OP and I am disproving that fact in a general way, not singling you out as an object of my terminology. Though I don't mind, if you want to continue to say the obvious to me. Though it would help a bit if you read back a bit to see where your misunderstanding came from.
...and you are doing a terrible job. The ships in this game are not created equal and while I agree that captain skill level plays a major part in the success of a ship it's not the only factor. You even made the point for the op when you mentioned the removal of dual heavy cannons from escorts making them a joke. Cruisers cannot equip dual heavy cannons (other then the dread and the klink battlecruisers, but that point is moot since this thread is discussing fedside) so they are forced to use the less damaging and less efficient beam arrays. This in combination with maneuverability issues, low lvl engineering skills being all that is needed to tank, and other factors are what make escorts significantly more powerful then science ships and cruisers.
To illustrate my point lets look at the most powerful science ship fedside. What do you think it is? Well I'll say arguably it's the vesta. Why? Because it's basically a escort/sci ship hybrid. If it was stuck using beam arrays it would just be another loser science ship with some fancy consoles. Escorts and dual heavy cannons go hand in hand because they are the only ships (outside a few special cases) that can equip these uber weapons. That one fact alone makes them, I wouldn't say OP, but definitely more productive damage dealers then their other two counterparts and it's a problem that should be addressed.
Read it one more time.
Escorts are not OP, the weapons they use are.
and everyone is saying no you're wrong, escorts are op and then saying the exact same thing I just said to prove that escorts are not op but the weapons they use are.
The same thing that you are saying that I am doing a horrible job explaining you just said the exact same thing I have been saying for the last few pages.
Maybe I am the one thats not understanding something here. The weapons a ship uses does not mean the ship is op it just means the weapons the ship is using is. Maybe I'm the odd ball here because it makes sense to me because I can distinguish one from the other. The Galaxy can use DHC's but it's not op? Even if it has all the upsides of a cruiser, a battle cloak, and the phaser lance? But a patrol Escort which can use only DHC's is op?
I just can't see how people cannot distinguish the two. Between a ship and a ships weapons system. At this point it's just all dissolving into mindless bickering.
Unless someone can prove to me without a shadow of a doubt that an Escort with the same weapons and same equipment can still out dps a cruiser I refuse to believe that escorts are op. There is no way an escort can out dps a cruiser with beams. Then does that statement alone prove that the escort is innocent and the dhc's are guilty? So if then that statement is also correct then doesn't that also prove that escorts are not Over Powered and that this entire thread is incorrect?
That is the only thing I have interest in solving, is showing that if you remove DHC's from the loop this conversation would not happen so with hope that will end the entire mythological dogma that Cruisers are gimped and Escorts are godly.
(SIgh) No matter who it is or how i say it I am sure the next person in line will say, no, you're wrong, Escorts are OP because they can equip dhcs and do such and such damage and I will facepalm myself and cringe as i die on the inside again.
R.I.P
Op... what is op?
If a human fights a human they are on equal terms. but here is an anology and with hope it will not become guilt by association.
Which will win? unarmed to a knife? Knife to a hand gun, handgun to an assault rifle? Assault rifle to a sniper Rifle, sniper rifle to a nuke?
Does the human become op by choosing any of these weapons or does he remain a human USING a more powerful weapon? Obviously he stays human but uses a more powerful weapon.... So in the end an escort is the weakest ship in this game if it was not for DHC's and I'm not even arguing for or against DHC's I don't even like them i think they are Klink weapons and should be trash to Feds. But if you remove them then escorts will die out because they are not strong enough to do anything alone. What role can they fill. Cruisers and sci ships will murder them for kicks. So does that prove my statement correct? Or are we still believing that deeply ingrained propaganda that escorts are op?
I can make my beam escorts do hella damage so i don't care if they remove them or not to stop these sort of threads from propagating, I do not need them to be effective. The only I win button I need in this game is the one that appears when I log onto shard. ENGAGE.
We do not need a nerfing or buffing virus in this game. It will be tantamount to a gaming holocaust. Specially when the person you are hanging is absolutely innocent and the guilty party gets away scott free.
It's not only the cannons themselves that make the escort op. It's the maneuverability to bring them to bare against a target as well as the bridge officer stations to support the cannons. Thats why it's the escorts themselves that are so powerful. Even if fed-cruisers could use dual heavy cannons they would be completely ineffective. Look at the galaxy dreadnought. it has neither the maneuverability nor the tac stations to use them effectively.]
As you say the gal-x can use cannons but no one's saying that's OP. Because it isn't. But if cannons are OP then surely the gal-x would be too?
If Escorts are OP it's because they can use cannons effectively, which is the difference between them and the Cruisers that can equip cannons. Cruisers just can't get the most out of them.
At the end of the day the most effective way to complete most of the games content is overwhelming damage; and that's escort and cannons, with a tac captain.
Don't get me wrong though. I'm not advocating nerfs. But other MMOs don't normally have end game content where you can complete it with just a team of damage dealers. Because that leaves everyone else out of a job.
I'm rather see positive changes such as buffs to cruisers and especially sci-ships rather than nerfs though. Sci is worse off than cruisers imo.
It's just got to be balanced or tac captains such as myself will just hop into cruisers/sci and you'll have a new OP. Tac captains in Sci ships caused sci powers to get nerfed in the first place.
I agree with this, but then.... if weapons overall (overall because DHCs are affected like any other weapon even if they are still usefull) got an upgrade the value of the high level rep passives/gear and their healing and defensive effects would be instantly lost, as would any motivation by players to get them.
Unlike WoW, STO does not get a constant release of new tougher content to justify previous gear becoming obsolete. The most it gets is the Borg get buffed a little (by design or the code magically rewriting itself so that one shot invisitorps increase in number) and instead of running challenging (or at least interesting/new) content we'd be expected to grind the same 5 missions or years old content that we've already run a few thousand times....
Cryptic has painted itself into a corner, but if it buffs weapon's baseline (or releases MK 13 weapons with a corresponding new grind, or even at an inflated Dil cost) and undoes all the work people have put in the PR disaster would be astronomical. It wouldn't be if STO was like other MMOs and had new interesting (whether grind or not) content now and then, but as a churn game its content comes sooo slowly, even Blizz is faster.
I'd say their best bet is to include serious DPS passives as rewards in the next one or two rep grinds.
I find Cruisers to be too slow for my liking, sure they can take a beating, but a good team of cruisers and escorts can get the job done effectively, it's down to player skill not the ship.
Only a bad workman blames his tools.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Oh no, i am not misunderstanding you, i am just objecting to your statement of equalness with ship types and power output.
If they sit in the C-store there is no difference between them, if you have them unused in a ship slot there is no difference between them.
And this is how the ships work in-game?
Not really.
I agree with you, i just object to this statement of yours. People get this idea from in-game experience.
Meeting ships that are more powerful than their own.
It's a moot point comparing ships how they are in the c-store, how they are when they are un-used in a ship slot.
It's not those ships people see in pve or pvp.
All in all, Escort do the most damage, they are just best for it.
There's no escaping that.
It's the same with cruisers, they are the best tankers.
It's the same with sci ships...Well they are rare those that can do heavy damage with sci abilities, but they do exist.
Oh btw, i do not run cannons on my escort...
And that works just fine :-)
dying on the inside again.
So first it's DHC's make escorts op, now it's maneuverability that mass them op?
So natuaral law makes them OP now?
If you compare a motorcycle to a Semi wouldn't the motorcycle be faster and more maneuverable?
A cruiser is huge and hulking and an escort is small and nimble. But maneuverability and speed means nothing without stopping power. If you put BEAMS on an escort and BEAMS on a cruiser the cruiser doesn't have to move at all it can sit in place and brutalize and harass the weaker escort until it dies. Isn't that proof alone?
Let's make their turn rates like that of destroyers, in crease their damage to match their op healing capabilities, add a few DHC's for kicks and one or two more tac consoles, that way we can make up for the UP escort that uses OP weapons and OP natural abilities to be faster then a hulking huge ship that needs 2000+ people to run it effectively.
Everybody is skipping right over what I am saying and going right back to DHC's that is not proof that escorts are op it is proof that the weapons they use ARE.
PRove to me that escorts with the same weapons and items as a cruiser will still win and I will shut up in a heartbeat. Isn't that what op is? To win no matter the circumstances. Don't mention DHC's, go with total beams and prove to me that the escort is op.
If I am op with them then I am op without them correct? Then just prove it. It's not hard been saying it the whole time and everyone's reply is but it uses DHC's effectively. Seriously? Because it can turn and is faster because it is lighter and more maneuverable that makes it op? Why wouldn't it be able to turn? You're comparing moving a rock to moving a mountain. Talk about nitpicking.
I will say this one more time and hopefully it will penetrate. Read carefully. The escort is not OP, but the weapons the captain choices to use is.
I will continue to say this until someone proves me wrong, because it is the only statement that from the gate proves you wrong. I am not saying learn to play, I am not saying buff, I am not saying nerf, I am saying that this belief is wrong. Escorts are not op if anything they are under powered. If you removed DHC's what do you have? Nothing.
I personally refuse to use DHC's anyhow for a standard and I don't mind using beams I had to learn how to survive with my CHOICES if they are limited by the system or my own pride, I accepted it.
Is this something you too can accept? That you have your limitations and all you can do to prove your worth is surpass them. Don't look at someone else plate and whine that they have more portions then you, becayse at least you can eat. Cruisers are still pivotal in this game and if you don't understand that then maybe I've been around elites too long and I'm spoiled by their talent. I've heard them laugh at escorts before even when I killed them but I have never ever heard them say that they were op. They said I was lucky. And I think they are right.
I have no idea what else to say at this point.... I've gone through the whole gauntlet of emotions atm. From misunderstanding, to pity, to shame, to confused, and now it's rolling on to anger and disgust. So before I get to that point I would rather back out and thank my lucky stars I reached 10 post. The limit and no matter what I can't reply to this thread anymore. Phew. Did my best to prove my point but people are still tightly bound to the ideology that what makes an escort is DHC's and any other weapon on them is a fail. Even the Cruisers captains who are complaining about it being op refuse to separate dhc's from escorts. So there is nothing to say about it any more. If you feel that escorts are op then I feel bad for you. All you see is one road to victory and you want to be on that road doing what the motorcycles are doing even while you're driving a hummer. With that kind of thought process you don't deserve any sympathy or understanding. You will never get far looking where someone else is going. A lot of stumbling blocks coming more and more but as long as you're looking this way and not ahead of you then lol i hope you like the taste of the ground.
Kittymomo Brigade is out