in response to the andorian ship, all kdf ships that currently cloak should get a battle cloak
We arent looking for more hit and run ships, we want bops that can sustain a normal fight. I do like the alpha tactic, but currently thats the only thing a bop can do
Iirc, there Raiders actually lost the rear weapon mount early on.
Also, I thought there were slight boosts to hull around Season 5, but maybe that was just the B'rel.
But, the overall point I agree with. Raiders have been left in the dust. Really, the Vet ship is the closest thing to what the Fleet Raiders should have been like, but w/less hull, more speed and Sci Boff/Console Oriented option as well. I'm still hoping the Romulans come w/a Sci Oriented Raider Feds can't get.
Ya its been a few years now so my memory isn't 100% either... but ya I am pretty sure the changes you refer to where for the brel. Not the Hegh. I could be wrong... but I don't think my hull numbers have changed in 4 years.
Your right on the vet ship and good example... it is possible to have higher stated BOP like ships that are not unbalanced.
I think you can agree Roach... we arn't asking for more then we deserve. I don't want an uber bop there is no fun in that... just a reasonable keeping with the times update. If the lockbox/fed fleet/Fed Cstore ships are the new standard at least give us an iconic Klingon ship on par with them on the balance sheet. We don't want JEM or even Patrol Escort level hull... we don't want Wells destroyer style uber shielding.... but a bump would be appreciated... not the token 700k the Nogh and Hos got recently. (huge bump on there first design... but the first design was flawed... we all remember the belly aching when the Fleet bop specs where first released.) Most long time Klingon players don't own a fleet BOP at all... because the numbers where just not enticing at all.
Anyway Roach I'm glad you arn't completely turned off my more complaining. I know it feels like thats what we do sometimes. Understand I bought a NORG a few days ago... because friends said HEY this bop is fun to play now thanks to this little minor bump. They where right it is fun to play... However playing it I still say to myself yes this is fun and what I want to do... but why do all my fed tacs feel so much more powerful ? Anyway... this is my form of friendly protest... I type lots. I want Cryptic to understand that we Klnngon players may have not been around much the last few years... and some of us have been hiding out with blue huds (Phaaaa). However if they build it WE will come... and I don't think its negative to say I will happily open my wallet if they do.
I think they meant to say that the bird of prey is the most characteristic klingon ship.
Fun fact about the BOP.
The original was meant to be a stolen Romulan ship, hence the term Bird of Prey and the feathered wing designs. I'm all for more BOP's in the game, but lets not give it an undeserved standing.
Fun fact about the BOP.
The original was meant to be a stolen Romulan ship, hence the term Bird of Prey and the feathered wing designs. I'm all for more BOP's in the game, but lets not give it an undeserved standing.
Well, if we are giving the Bird of Prey an undeserved standing being the most characteristic klingon ship and the main klingon force and the most versatile klingon ship then, so be it.
I like flying BoPs. Gimme a refit B'rel, a proper one, and I'll be very happy.
I know I know. I was just joking but I bet there are a lot of people out there who have and will dole out $50 thinking they're going to school a Bug in it.
I like flying cruisers, especially the Galaxy so I know your pain.
Fun fact about the BOP.
The original was meant to be a stolen Romulan ship, hence the term Bird of Prey and the feathered wing designs. I'm all for more BOP's in the game, but lets not give it an undeserved standing.
It was given its standing. Even after ILMs leaving its romulans accents and the script change for ST3 to being a klingon ship, the classic BoP look from the movies and later Tv series afterwards has become an iconic image that is instantly recognizable as Klingon.
We arent looking for more hit and run ships, we want bops that can sustain a normal fight. I do like the alpha tactic, but currently thats the only thing a bop can do
you want an escort then, a bop is all about the hit and run, and the creativeness from the universal stations. if your trying to fly a bop like an escort your doing it wrong you wont survive a dog fight. if you want them to make a bop like an escort, well its not a bop anymore.
personally i think klingon escorts should have been bops. they are tactical focused, in no way are they the most versatile thing ever, they have always had that single purpose.
you want an escort then, a bop is all about the hit and run, and the creativeness from the universal stations. if your trying to fly a bop like an escort your doing it wrong you wont survive a dog fight. if you want them to make a bop like an escort, well its not a bop anymore.
personally i think klingon escorts should have been bops. they are tactical focused, in no way are they the most versatile thing ever, they have always had that single purpose.
I have to agree. I do wish to keep the raider in the BoP as a HnR ship capable of dogfighting but not neccassarily being a slugger heavy wieght.
I still think the OP has a good idea for 3pack for the KDF.
they are tactical focused, in no way are they the most versatile thing ever, they have always had that single purpose.
I think the Birds of Prey were pretty versatile ships in the Star Trek universe (If you are talking about that). Correct me if I am wrong, but they were used as raiders as well as scout force. Even as cruisers.
Fun fact about the BOP.
The original was meant to be a stolen Romulan ship, hence the term Bird of Prey and the feathered wing designs. I'm all for more BOP's in the game, but lets not give it an undeserved standing.
NO you are 100% wrong... here is the real story for you.
" The Bird of Prey is one of the most common Klingon ships seen in the Star Trek franchise. Introduced in Star Trek III: The Search for Spock, the Bird of Prey has featured in five of the films and frequently appears in The Next Generation and Deep Space Nine. Industrial Light & Magic designed and built the Bird of Prey for Star Trek III, assisted by the film's director, Leonard Nimoy. In early drafts of the script, the Bird of Prey was to be a Romulan vessel; although this idea was later dropped, the Bird of Prey maintained its cloaking device as a plot point in the film and the Romulan bird feather patterns on its wings were kept. The Bird of Prey is the first Klingon vessel depicted with a cloaking device; all classes chronologically later in the series would also use a cloaking device. The wings of the Bird of Prey are able to move, lowering to attack, maintaining just above horizontal in flight mode and raising high when the ship lands. However, as the studio model's mechanism for moving the wings broke, in later Star Trek series' episodes the wings are usually fixed in either flight mode or attack mode. This was not rectified until the creation of a CGI model for the vessel. The studio models for the Bird of Prey were sold in the 2006 Christie's auction; the original model sold for US$307,200,[5] while an enlarged wing, used for close-up shots in Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, was sold for US$8,400. " - Wikipedia
There it is... The first draft of the Star Trek III script was to feature a story about Kruge stealing a Romulan ship... however that was dropped and as such has nothing at all to do with cannon. The fact that following Klink Generals commanded bops in the later films is proof that it was dropped. Why would they install proto type cloaking on romulan ships ? The Bird of Prey is a Klingon Vessel... and in the time frame of the next gen... and the time frame of STO... it is the most widely deployed ship in the Klingon fleet... full stop.
ILM under Ken Ralston and with consultation from Niomy developed the Bird of Prey design as well as the excelsior, and the first grand earth space dock. That film was the jumping point for much of what most of us consider Iconic trek.
you want an escort then, a bop is all about the hit and run, and the creativeness from the universal stations. if your trying to fly a bop like an escort your doing it wrong you wont survive a dog fight. if you want them to make a bop like an escort, well its not a bop anymore.
personally i think klingon escorts should have been bops. they are tactical focused, in no way are they the most versatile thing ever, they have always had that single purpose.
NO you won't survive a dog fight NOW ... because Cryptic has boosted every ship in the game accept the bop.
Trust me if we are to go and do the "Classic" rules pvp right now... and you jump in a Lunch comparable fed escort... and I jump in the Classic Hegh... we will have a VERY good solid balanced dog fight.
The bop can't hang with the newer 4 years of power creep ships NO... because Cryptic has ignored it. You explain to me why that is... I can think of a few... but I won't accuse them of anything.
I think the Birds of Prey were pretty versatile ships in the Star Trek universe (If you are talking about that). Correct me if I am wrong, but they were used as raiders as well as scout force. Even as cruisers.
Exactly. In Star Trek Cannon. The Bird of Prey visual layout was used on ships of many sizes.
There where small 10-30 crew bops like the B'rel that where scout/raider designs...
The K'Vort class has a crew compliment of 1500... that is not a raider.
If we are however going to pick apart canon issues with ships... lets get to the meat and potatoes... The Raptor was designed for Enterprise, the designers based it part of the ILM bop design... and was supposed to look like an early D7. The raptor was designed in Enterprise to have a Crew of 12 and be a scout vessel. It was ONLY ever in ONE episode EVER... and it a Scout vessel.... How that becomes the base for the Current Empires warship fleet is mind boggling. IF I was a canon nerd... it would bother me to no end that Cryptic choose that ship to represent the best in Klingon war tech.... if we are going to go all logical can you imagine this convo. "Hey guys we have this fantastic battle tech we call it Battle cloak that gives us a massive advantage over pretty much everyone else should we install it in our Warships.... NA why do that put it on that junky 200 year old raider." lol
NO you are 100% wrong... here is the real story for you.
" The Bird of Prey is one of the most common Klingon ships seen in the Star Trek franchise. Introduced in Star Trek III: The Search for Spock, the Bird of Prey has featured in five of the films and frequently appears in The Next Generation and Deep Space Nine. Industrial Light & Magic designed and built the Bird of Prey for Star Trek III, assisted by the film's director, Leonard Nimoy. In early drafts of the script, the Bird of Prey was to be a Romulan vessel; although this idea was later dropped, the Bird of Prey maintained its cloaking device as a plot point in the film and the Romulan bird feather patterns on its wings were kept. The Bird of Prey is the first Klingon vessel depicted with a cloaking device; all classes chronologically later in the series would also use a cloaking device. The wings of the Bird of Prey are able to move, lowering to attack, maintaining just above horizontal in flight mode and raising high when the ship lands. However, as the studio model's mechanism for moving the wings broke, in later Star Trek series' episodes the wings are usually fixed in either flight mode or attack mode. This was not rectified until the creation of a CGI model for the vessel. The studio models for the Bird of Prey were sold in the 2006 Christie's auction; the original model sold for US$307,200,[5] while an enlarged wing, used for close-up shots in Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, was sold for US$8,400. " - Wikipedia
There it is... The first draft of the Star Trek III script was to feature a story about Kruge stealing a Romulan ship... however that was dropped and as such has nothing at all to do with cannon. The fact that following Klink Generals commanded bops in the later films is proof that it was dropped. Why would they install proto type cloaking on romulan ships ? The Bird of Prey is a Klingon Vessel... and in the time frame of the next gen... and the time frame of STO... it is the most widely deployed ship in the Klingon fleet... full stop.
ILM under Ken Ralston and with consultation from Niomy developed the Bird of Prey design as well as the excelsior, and the first grand earth space dock. That film was the jumping point for much of what most of us consider Iconic trek.
Do you understand the meaning of the word "meant"?
The fact that it's a legitimate Klingon ship doesn't demean the importance of Romulan design ethics, technology, and terminology. Trying to claim a ship with all these things represents the Klingon people is foolish. In every series, the Klingons value strength, and in all but one series the Klingons value honor, you'll find more of both those things in the battle cruiser line. Every Klingon high chancellor except one has used a battle cruiser for their flag ship. Kronos one in UC, the chancellor before Gowron, Gowron, and then Gowron again in the Negh'Var. That's an 80% rate in favor for battlecruisers being used to represent the Klingons.
Do you understand the meaning of the word "meant"?
The fact that it's a legitimate Klingon ship doesn't demean the importance of Romulan design ethics, technology, and terminology. Trying to claim a ship with all these things represents the Klingon people is foolish. In every series, the Klingons value strength, and in all but one series the Klingons value honor, you'll find more of both those things in the battle cruiser line. Every Klingon high chancellor except one has used a battle cruiser for their flag ship. Kronos one in UC, the chancellor before Gowron, Gowron, and then Gowron again in the Negh'Var. That's an 80% rate in favor for battlecruisers being used to represent the Klingons.
As a command ship sure the Chancellors rode in style in the battle cruisers. Nothing shocking there... that's like saying the boeing 747 is the grand representation of US military might because the president rides around in one.
Yes fair you get that it was intended to be a romulan ship but in fact wasn't... and of course they kept the greenish hue and the bird feather pattern so point taken.
Do you understand the meaning of the word "meant"?
The fact that it's a legitimate Klingon ship doesn't demean the importance of Romulan design ethics, technology, and terminology. Trying to claim a ship with all these things represents the Klingon people is foolish. In every series, the Klingons value strength, and in all but one series the Klingons value honor, you'll find more of both those things in the battle cruiser line. Every Klingon high chancellor except one has used a battle cruiser for their flag ship. Kronos one in UC, the chancellor before Gowron, Gowron, and then Gowron again in the Negh'Var. That's an 80% rate in favor for battlecruisers being used to represent the Klingons.
There is nothing more honorable than honorably obtained victory IMO.
I'l just add one more thing, there is only one BOP design in canon, there may be different sizes and classes, but only one visage. When the show writers and designers needed a new look for the klingons they chose to make a battle cruiser. That means that every time the writers or designers wanted to add a new way to see the Klingons or had a chance to change the way their fleets worked they sided with evolving the battlecruiser design. As far as we can tell, the Klingons put more effort into the technological and aesthetic evolution of the BC line than anything else.
All you have to is watch the shows for that... there are as many BOP designs in the shows and movies as there are shows and movies.
Even the later shows like enterprise took BOP design elements... the only real ship they designed was the Raptor... and they based it heavily on the ILM designs for the bop, and the D7... which if you look at it lends lots of design ques to what was the final BOP from ILM as well.
I won't argue that Battle Cruisers are not klingon ships... of course they are... but they are not the main contingent of the fleet... they are the fleets cruiser command ships... being klinks they go to war. They even have non honorable cloaks as well.
Its like saying the defiant class and the miranda ect are Non Iconic fed ship because Large Cruisers is what the heros always fly.
There are only 3 TRUE klink designs in cannon...
D7 / Battle Cruiser (negvar) / and BOP
That's it all else are derived from those 3.
And no the Klingon quote is as snoge00f states it. There is no provision to fight with honor... with out victory there is no honor.
All you silly feds that say there is no honor in cloaking devices are completely at odds with the Trek Writers.
Klingons Honor bound warrior race... use cloak on every ship they take to war.
Jem soliders... Breed to be Honor bound warrior race... They use cloaking in hand to hand combat.
I think the idea that cloaking has no honor is funny... and so do the Star Trek Creators quite obviously.
Ah the manuals, and technical fluff...the same stuff that gives the Galaxy the most powerful saucer phaser array and huge rapid fire torpedo launchers. keep dreaming
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Speaking of speed this is another area where the bop has really been dumped on.
The BOP was Fast. it was the fastest ship in the game for the first year and a half... the bop did have the best turn... by far. Yes Yes I know it still does on paper have the best turn rate... its just not by all that much anymore. The fed ships get more and more turn... every escort has a min amount and some more... the JEM is cross faction so its not far to point at it but sure its with in a sliver of bop turn. When a fleet bop gets a turn bump it looses some hull... when a fleet bop gets a console or something else shiny it looses some turn.
Ya know its funny I said in my op... hey Turn 23 on my new Cstore bop... and people think thats crazy.... do they not realize the Hegh has had a 22 turn rate since launch day. lol
Sure feds have fought for 4 years to go from turn rates of 12 to 18 as standard... good on em I like my fed escorts they do turn nice... but every bump they have gotten the bop has not... and it used to be that yes you could have a great dog fight with a fed ship... because if you flew smart and turned proper and stayed out of the big guns often enough you could compensate for the fragile nature of the BOP....
Now any competent Fed Escort pilot even with out Doff driven 50% omega up time will be able to mostly keep up with the BOP turn and fry them pretty easy. They won't have to plan a turn...
Posts I used to make about immelman turns and other fun tricks to out think your target... well mostly there pointless now... Just put it in reverse turn the guns and fire away. lol
I don't think the bop needs more turn then it has don't get me wrong... but to suggest a ONE point bump on the cstore I was being VERY VERY conservative. Really instead of suggesting 23 I should have said 25 or even 26. lol That would have put it back to the gap it had vs the fed scorts on launch day.
All you have to is watch the shows for that... there are as many BOP designs in the shows and movies as there are shows and movies.
Even the later shows like enterprise took BOP design elements... the only real ship they designed was the Raptor... and they based it heavily on the ILM designs for the bop, and the D7... which if you look at it lends lots of design ques to what was the final BOP from ILM as well.
I won't argue that Battle Cruisers are not klingon ships... of course they are... but they are not the main contingent of the fleet... they are the fleets cruiser command ships... being klinks they go to war. They even have non honorable cloaks as well.
Its like saying the defiant class and the miranda ect are Non Iconic fed ship because Large Cruisers is what the heros always fly.
There are only 3 TRUE klink designs in cannon...
D7 / Battle Cruiser (negvar) / and BOP
That's it all else are derived from those 3.
And no the Klingon quote is as snoge00f states it. There is no provision to fight with honor... with out victory there is no honor.
All you silly feds that say there is no honor in cloaking devices are completely at odds with the Trek Writers.
Klingons Honor bound warrior race... use cloak on every ship they take to war.
Jem soliders... Breed to be Honor bound warrior race... They use cloaking in hand to hand combat.
I think the idea that cloaking has no honor is funny... and so do the Star Trek Creators quite obviously.
I completely forgot about the ENT BOP, my mistake. But still that's two BOPS, 1 or 2 raptors, and 5 battlecruiser style ships over the history of Trek. Going back in time to prove that modern klingons didn't just stream line BOP production or give more than a marginal amount of care for their evolution just doesn't work in an argument about modern Trek. And the statement of writers preference in new asset creation still stands like 80% of the time.
Its like saying the defiant class and the miranda ect are Non Iconic fed ship because Large Cruisers is what the heros always fly.
But thats a huge part of the issue. All but one of the major star trek captains flew a form of cruiser design, with the iconic cruiser shape. Thats a majority of the captains who defined star trek in general, I love and value designs like the reliant, but to say it represented the Federation more than the Connie or Galaxy would be inadequate. Those are the designs that actively succeed at every mission goal of the Federation. As command ships they must be reliably called upon to carry out as many tasks as the Federation requires. The same would go for Klingon battlecruisers which were often times considered the Klingon equivalent of federation cruisers, as much as Klingons value combat over all else, their leaders and venerable officers need to be at certain places at certain times. If a scientific emergency crops up you need one of the best scientists with the best equipment to deal with the problem. Klingon cruisers didn't have great scientific facilities, but they were better than what a twelve man ship could do. Just as the best of the Federation carry the image of the star fleet, so too do such klingon ships and captains.
Kor, Kang, Koloth, Gowron, Gorkon, and K'mpec were all famous Klingons who preferred cruisers.
Chang, Kruge, and Martok were the famous BOP captains. (Chang favored cruisers in Klingon Academy, but il put him here because we are discussing the establishment of iconic ships)
The majority of famous star trek shows took place on cruisers, and the majority of famous Klingon captains captained cruisers. We got to know those famous Klingons more than any other, they defined what it means to be Klingon, and in doing so they had their ships established as the iconic form too.
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We arent looking for more hit and run ships, we want bops that can sustain a normal fight. I do like the alpha tactic, but currently thats the only thing a bop can do
??????
That may be a bit extreme. I just liked the idea of a Slightly tougher BoP with a ensign Uslot to be honest.:P
R.I.P
Ya its been a few years now so my memory isn't 100% either... but ya I am pretty sure the changes you refer to where for the brel. Not the Hegh. I could be wrong... but I don't think my hull numbers have changed in 4 years.
Your right on the vet ship and good example... it is possible to have higher stated BOP like ships that are not unbalanced.
I think you can agree Roach... we arn't asking for more then we deserve. I don't want an uber bop there is no fun in that... just a reasonable keeping with the times update. If the lockbox/fed fleet/Fed Cstore ships are the new standard at least give us an iconic Klingon ship on par with them on the balance sheet. We don't want JEM or even Patrol Escort level hull... we don't want Wells destroyer style uber shielding.... but a bump would be appreciated... not the token 700k the Nogh and Hos got recently. (huge bump on there first design... but the first design was flawed... we all remember the belly aching when the Fleet bop specs where first released.) Most long time Klingon players don't own a fleet BOP at all... because the numbers where just not enticing at all.
Anyway Roach I'm glad you arn't completely turned off my more complaining. I know it feels like thats what we do sometimes. Understand I bought a NORG a few days ago... because friends said HEY this bop is fun to play now thanks to this little minor bump. They where right it is fun to play... However playing it I still say to myself yes this is fun and what I want to do... but why do all my fed tacs feel so much more powerful ? Anyway... this is my form of friendly protest... I type lots. I want Cryptic to understand that we Klnngon players may have not been around much the last few years... and some of us have been hiding out with blue huds (Phaaaa). However if they build it WE will come... and I don't think its negative to say I will happily open my wallet if they do.
R.I.P
And while you guys try to say the Bop is the lead ship of the empire, it's three known flag ships were battle cruisers. :rolleyes:
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I think they meant to say that the bird of prey is the most characteristic klingon ship. Its the most seen in the series.
Fun fact about the BOP.
The original was meant to be a stolen Romulan ship, hence the term Bird of Prey and the feathered wing designs. I'm all for more BOP's in the game, but lets not give it an undeserved standing.
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Well, if we are giving the Bird of Prey an undeserved standing being the most characteristic klingon ship and the main klingon force and the most versatile klingon ship then, so be it.
I like flying BoPs.
I know I know. I was just joking but I bet there are a lot of people out there who have and will dole out $50 thinking they're going to school a Bug in it.
I like flying cruisers, especially the Galaxy so I know your pain.
It was given its standing. Even after ILMs leaving its romulans accents and the script change for ST3 to being a klingon ship, the classic BoP look from the movies and later Tv series afterwards has become an iconic image that is instantly recognizable as Klingon.
R.I.P
you want an escort then, a bop is all about the hit and run, and the creativeness from the universal stations. if your trying to fly a bop like an escort your doing it wrong you wont survive a dog fight. if you want them to make a bop like an escort, well its not a bop anymore.
personally i think klingon escorts should have been bops. they are tactical focused, in no way are they the most versatile thing ever, they have always had that single purpose.
I have to agree. I do wish to keep the raider in the BoP as a HnR ship capable of dogfighting but not neccassarily being a slugger heavy wieght.
I still think the OP has a good idea for 3pack for the KDF.
R.I.P
I think the Birds of Prey were pretty versatile ships in the Star Trek universe (If you are talking about that). Correct me if I am wrong, but they were used as raiders as well as scout force. Even as cruisers.
NO you are 100% wrong... here is the real story for you.
" The Bird of Prey is one of the most common Klingon ships seen in the Star Trek franchise. Introduced in Star Trek III: The Search for Spock, the Bird of Prey has featured in five of the films and frequently appears in The Next Generation and Deep Space Nine. Industrial Light & Magic designed and built the Bird of Prey for Star Trek III, assisted by the film's director, Leonard Nimoy. In early drafts of the script, the Bird of Prey was to be a Romulan vessel; although this idea was later dropped, the Bird of Prey maintained its cloaking device as a plot point in the film and the Romulan bird feather patterns on its wings were kept. The Bird of Prey is the first Klingon vessel depicted with a cloaking device; all classes chronologically later in the series would also use a cloaking device. The wings of the Bird of Prey are able to move, lowering to attack, maintaining just above horizontal in flight mode and raising high when the ship lands. However, as the studio model's mechanism for moving the wings broke, in later Star Trek series' episodes the wings are usually fixed in either flight mode or attack mode. This was not rectified until the creation of a CGI model for the vessel. The studio models for the Bird of Prey were sold in the 2006 Christie's auction; the original model sold for US$307,200,[5] while an enlarged wing, used for close-up shots in Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, was sold for US$8,400. " - Wikipedia
There it is... The first draft of the Star Trek III script was to feature a story about Kruge stealing a Romulan ship... however that was dropped and as such has nothing at all to do with cannon. The fact that following Klink Generals commanded bops in the later films is proof that it was dropped. Why would they install proto type cloaking on romulan ships ? The Bird of Prey is a Klingon Vessel... and in the time frame of the next gen... and the time frame of STO... it is the most widely deployed ship in the Klingon fleet... full stop.
ILM under Ken Ralston and with consultation from Niomy developed the Bird of Prey design as well as the excelsior, and the first grand earth space dock. That film was the jumping point for much of what most of us consider Iconic trek.
NO you won't survive a dog fight NOW ... because Cryptic has boosted every ship in the game accept the bop.
Trust me if we are to go and do the "Classic" rules pvp right now... and you jump in a Lunch comparable fed escort... and I jump in the Classic Hegh... we will have a VERY good solid balanced dog fight.
The bop can't hang with the newer 4 years of power creep ships NO... because Cryptic has ignored it. You explain to me why that is... I can think of a few... but I won't accuse them of anything.
Exactly. In Star Trek Cannon. The Bird of Prey visual layout was used on ships of many sizes.
There where small 10-30 crew bops like the B'rel that where scout/raider designs...
The K'Vort class has a crew compliment of 1500... that is not a raider.
If we are however going to pick apart canon issues with ships... lets get to the meat and potatoes... The Raptor was designed for Enterprise, the designers based it part of the ILM bop design... and was supposed to look like an early D7. The raptor was designed in Enterprise to have a Crew of 12 and be a scout vessel. It was ONLY ever in ONE episode EVER... and it a Scout vessel.... How that becomes the base for the Current Empires warship fleet is mind boggling. IF I was a canon nerd... it would bother me to no end that Cryptic choose that ship to represent the best in Klingon war tech.... if we are going to go all logical can you imagine this convo. "Hey guys we have this fantastic battle tech we call it Battle cloak that gives us a massive advantage over pretty much everyone else should we install it in our Warships.... NA why do that put it on that junky 200 year old raider." lol
Do you understand the meaning of the word "meant"?
The fact that it's a legitimate Klingon ship doesn't demean the importance of Romulan design ethics, technology, and terminology. Trying to claim a ship with all these things represents the Klingon people is foolish. In every series, the Klingons value strength, and in all but one series the Klingons value honor, you'll find more of both those things in the battle cruiser line. Every Klingon high chancellor except one has used a battle cruiser for their flag ship. Kronos one in UC, the chancellor before Gowron, Gowron, and then Gowron again in the Negh'Var. That's an 80% rate in favor for battlecruisers being used to represent the Klingons.
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As a command ship sure the Chancellors rode in style in the battle cruisers. Nothing shocking there... that's like saying the boeing 747 is the grand representation of US military might because the president rides around in one.
Yes fair you get that it was intended to be a romulan ship but in fact wasn't... and of course they kept the greenish hue and the bird feather pattern so point taken.
There is nothing more honorable than victory.
There is nothing more honorable than honorably obtained victory IMO.
I'l just add one more thing, there is only one BOP design in canon, there may be different sizes and classes, but only one visage. When the show writers and designers needed a new look for the klingons they chose to make a battle cruiser. That means that every time the writers or designers wanted to add a new way to see the Klingons or had a chance to change the way their fleets worked they sided with evolving the battlecruiser design. As far as we can tell, the Klingons put more effort into the technological and aesthetic evolution of the BC line than anything else.
Good luck with getting more bops in the game.
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All you have to is watch the shows for that... there are as many BOP designs in the shows and movies as there are shows and movies.
Even the later shows like enterprise took BOP design elements... the only real ship they designed was the Raptor... and they based it heavily on the ILM designs for the bop, and the D7... which if you look at it lends lots of design ques to what was the final BOP from ILM as well.
I won't argue that Battle Cruisers are not klingon ships... of course they are... but they are not the main contingent of the fleet... they are the fleets cruiser command ships... being klinks they go to war. They even have non honorable cloaks as well.
Its like saying the defiant class and the miranda ect are Non Iconic fed ship because Large Cruisers is what the heros always fly.
There are only 3 TRUE klink designs in cannon...
D7 / Battle Cruiser (negvar) / and BOP
That's it all else are derived from those 3.
And no the Klingon quote is as snoge00f states it. There is no provision to fight with honor... with out victory there is no honor.
All you silly feds that say there is no honor in cloaking devices are completely at odds with the Trek Writers.
Klingons Honor bound warrior race... use cloak on every ship they take to war.
Jem soliders... Breed to be Honor bound warrior race... They use cloaking in hand to hand combat.
I think the idea that cloaking has no honor is funny... and so do the Star Trek Creators quite obviously.
The BOP was Fast. it was the fastest ship in the game for the first year and a half... the bop did have the best turn... by far. Yes Yes I know it still does on paper have the best turn rate... its just not by all that much anymore. The fed ships get more and more turn... every escort has a min amount and some more... the JEM is cross faction so its not far to point at it but sure its with in a sliver of bop turn. When a fleet bop gets a turn bump it looses some hull... when a fleet bop gets a console or something else shiny it looses some turn.
Ya know its funny I said in my op... hey Turn 23 on my new Cstore bop... and people think thats crazy.... do they not realize the Hegh has had a 22 turn rate since launch day. lol
Sure feds have fought for 4 years to go from turn rates of 12 to 18 as standard... good on em I like my fed escorts they do turn nice... but every bump they have gotten the bop has not... and it used to be that yes you could have a great dog fight with a fed ship... because if you flew smart and turned proper and stayed out of the big guns often enough you could compensate for the fragile nature of the BOP....
Now any competent Fed Escort pilot even with out Doff driven 50% omega up time will be able to mostly keep up with the BOP turn and fry them pretty easy. They won't have to plan a turn...
Posts I used to make about immelman turns and other fun tricks to out think your target... well mostly there pointless now... Just put it in reverse turn the guns and fire away. lol
I don't think the bop needs more turn then it has don't get me wrong... but to suggest a ONE point bump on the cstore I was being VERY VERY conservative. Really instead of suggesting 23 I should have said 25 or even 26.
I completely forgot about the ENT BOP, my mistake. But still that's two BOPS, 1 or 2 raptors, and 5 battlecruiser style ships over the history of Trek. Going back in time to prove that modern klingons didn't just stream line BOP production or give more than a marginal amount of care for their evolution just doesn't work in an argument about modern Trek. And the statement of writers preference in new asset creation still stands like 80% of the time.
But thats a huge part of the issue. All but one of the major star trek captains flew a form of cruiser design, with the iconic cruiser shape. Thats a majority of the captains who defined star trek in general, I love and value designs like the reliant, but to say it represented the Federation more than the Connie or Galaxy would be inadequate. Those are the designs that actively succeed at every mission goal of the Federation. As command ships they must be reliably called upon to carry out as many tasks as the Federation requires. The same would go for Klingon battlecruisers which were often times considered the Klingon equivalent of federation cruisers, as much as Klingons value combat over all else, their leaders and venerable officers need to be at certain places at certain times. If a scientific emergency crops up you need one of the best scientists with the best equipment to deal with the problem. Klingon cruisers didn't have great scientific facilities, but they were better than what a twelve man ship could do. Just as the best of the Federation carry the image of the star fleet, so too do such klingon ships and captains.
Kor, Kang, Koloth, Gowron, Gorkon, and K'mpec were all famous Klingons who preferred cruisers.
Chang, Kruge, and Martok were the famous BOP captains. (Chang favored cruisers in Klingon Academy, but il put him here because we are discussing the establishment of iconic ships)
The majority of famous star trek shows took place on cruisers, and the majority of famous Klingon captains captained cruisers. We got to know those famous Klingons more than any other, they defined what it means to be Klingon, and in doing so they had their ships established as the iconic form too.
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