The uni Stations... the ONLY reason I want them to stay... is simply this Klinks don't get new ships every month do they.
That's a ROI issue, as much as some (not you) players think that Cryptic actually has something against KDF players - the truth is that this is a company willing to sell anything as long as there is low risk involved.
The KDF is very clearly not a profitable proposition in its current state.
Fore Weapons 4 Hard points
Rear Weapons 3 Hard points
Special KDF themed consoles 1, 2 & 3
Set Bonuses
2 Piece = +25% damage bonus to Disruptors, +30 to Stealth Skill
3 Piece = Upgrades cloak to Battle Cloak for 20s (fixed duration), 180s CD.
TAC Version
Bonus Power:+15 weapons power
CMD Tac / Lt. Commander Uni / Lt Tac / Lt Uni / Ensign Tac (Just be glad it wasn't a Lt, I would hate this layout just like I hate it on the Kumari, Defiant, MVAE & HEC - but hey its an Ensign that BoPs have never had!:P)
Consoles
5 Tactical
2 Sci
3 Engi
ENG Version
Bonus Power:+10 Shields & +5 Engine power
CMD Tac / Lt. Commander Uni / Lt Tac / Lt Eng / Ensign Uni
Consoles
4 Tactical
2 Sci
4 Engi
SCI Version
Bonus Power:+15 aux power
CMD Tac / Lt. Commander Uni / Lt Tac / Lt Sci / Ensign Uni
Consoles
4 Tactical
4 Sci
2 Engi
Summary:
> Improved Hull & Shielding vs. standard BoPs
> Retains more customizability than any single Fed Escort
> Gains 1 rear weapon slot
> Keeps "free" non-console cloak ability
> BC capable with set bonus
> 2nd piece set bonus means nearly 5 tac consoles for all versions and almost 6 full tac consoles for Tac version (sacrifice is Tac Ensign)
> Still has better base turn than any available Fed escort
> Console layouts are more focused, and less flexible, as is the design with most Escorts
Battle cloak, turn rate and universal bridge officer stations are the only reason to make this ship playable. These things are essential to play this ship.
Without the Battle Cloak and the universal stations the Bird of Prey would be nothing but a shuttle with cannons.
So yes, I think the BoP deserves a little boost. It might be a better BC, another cannon, another turret, another tactical console ... But not a better hull/shield.
If you are truly arguing against the OP you need to take a look at two things:
1. Fed power creep, in particular Vesta and Kumari, **** even the Steamrunner, and the rules they break. These are the rules that deemed the BoP in need of 2 aft slots and penalties to SP and HP.
2. The Fleet Norgh and Ho'Sus. Seriously. Take a look since the last patch. Then apply the logic that a Z-Store console ship should be a smidge above a fleet ship.
KDF has every right to demand a 5 tac console 5 forward weapon ship. The ship in the OP is actually a conservative request, IMO, made with the political and butthurtical fallout in mind.
_______________ CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that? Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
I think CRYPTIC should show the BoP some love reclassify it an attack ship boost it between a escort stats and a raiders better then a raider but not as good as an escort somewhere inbetween.
Balance is an issue since CRYPTIC is showing alot of bias when it concerns the KDF they give new shis perks etc to the feds why did they make the KDF in the first place if they dont plan on completing it and nerf the BoP to an almost unusable status.
Me personally im not asking for some super ship that cannot be beaten all i want is a BoP that can hang in a fight with the feds and not blow up the first time someone sneezes on it.
Back to the balance thing this game has some minor balance issues by way of completion to ships and stats...ive played a game with MAJOR balance issues and take it from me id rather have this minor balance issue then the one i left behind.
How about.......The Fleet Norgh Boff layout standard. And make all of the Console Slots Universal. Just put a cap of 5 for each type. Likely a more robust way of doing it in the first place. Enhanced Battle Cloak for all. And Kick the Hull Right Back Down to 16k or whatever the Norgh used to be.
Tons of other fun ideas in this thread as well I bet we'd all be glad if even one of them was picked up!
How about.......The Fleet Norgh Boff layout standard. And make all of the Console Slots Universal. Just put a cap of 5 for each type. Likely a more robust way of doing it in the first place. Enhanced Battle Cloak for all. And Kick the Hull Right Back Down to 16k or whatever the Norgh used to be.
Tons of other fun ideas in this thread as well I bet we'd all be glad if even one of them was picked up!
I mostly suggested it the way I did because it is extremely doable for Cryptic. The ship skins all exist... the layouts all exists all they have to do is edit a few files to enable a third rear weapon and add a console slot... unless there code is beyond messed up that should be no more then 1 hour of work...
Cryptic has great artists and I have no doubt they could pull off the 2D icon and 3d art for 3 console abilities in an hour or so... all they would need in my design would be something simple for the tac console a extra glow on the engines or something... add the same glow to the deflector for the sci version... the engi idea with healing pets... perhaps they change that to be a on hull effect... and take the polarized hull effect change the hue and boom done... the AOE 3 part same thing take the aoe field effect they have reused for KHG 3 part ect... change the HUE to a nice bright Klingon Empire Red and thats knocked out.
Bottom line they could pull off what I suggested in less then a days worth of work... and I think they would make the wages of 2-3 guys back off the first 10 sales... and I think we have had at least as many people post here saying they would be down to drop 40-50 bucks on just such a pack.
I can think of all sorts of cool things they could do with ship design... but the idea was KDF isn't getting any major multi week dev project... but what about a 1 day knock out a CSTORE bop based on an existing skin project... how can that NOT make them $.
Speaking as a BoP user who uses them for everything in this game (PvE, PvP, Ker'rat, mission contents and Foundry runs), I'm afraid I can't, in good conscience, endorse any of the versions floated here.
I could roll with your idea for a fixed ensign slot... that has some symmetry with what has been going on with feds getting uni ensigns. A good idea and might make the fed types that got the first brel nerfed happy.
Really the good conscience thing does make me laugh though... have you flown the Nogh since its recent buff ?
It gets a 12th boff slot... but its a Lt. Cmder... and gives up almost no hull over the over the hegh... in fact it has 24,700 and a .88 (hegh is 24 and .8)... so in every way it is BETTER then the hegh and adds not just an ensign but a Lt Commander slot. lol
Why would anyone fly what you suggest over the Fleet nogh, that we already have... let alone drop 50 bucks on it. Yours adds a tac console but at a cost of another ? That isn't a gain and the bonus consoles would be nice but again at the cost of a slot... I'm sorry with what the feds have been getting that is simply NOT cool. I suggested 28k hull and I think I'll stick with that... its 3300k more hull then the best bop we have right now... and I don't think that's crazy AT all... considering our friends on the other side of the arena are now sporting 5 dhc escorts. one cannon crit will remove that bonus.... and I will stick with .9 shielding again... its .2 better then the best bop no... again NOT crazy.
A third rear weapon... again I don't see how its game breaking... and I don't honestly understand the reasoning behind the bop only having 2 slots back there to begin with.
The Ensign slot... ya fixed makes no matter... but it needs one... and frankly by suggesting it I am suggesting a NERF to the current top bop the Nogh which does't have the Ensign but does have an extra Lt. Commander Slot.
BC (and cloaking in general) is underrated in terms of its usefulness (it's a strong flat damage buff and a tactical advantage in PUG games, what's not to like) but overrated when it comes to how the designers originally intended it to be used. A Fed Sci captain with a decent head on his shoulders is the hardest counter to pretty much every factional KDF ship there is, it's just that FvK isn't very serious these days so you don't see many teams using the tools available to them for the game mode.
This is what I asked for in my OP
Hegh'ta (Tactical Version BOP refit)
Battle Cloak
Type:Raider Hull:28,000 Shield 0.9
Crew 100 Turn Rate:22
Impulse Modifier:0.20
Inertia rating:60
Bonus Power:+15 weapons power
Boffs. Commander / Lt. Commander / Lt / Lt / Ensign
Consoles
4 3 3
So to sum it up I asked for
3300k in hull
0.2 extra shield mod
A boost of ONE rear weapons slot and a console (which is no more then every other ship of its class) sorry raider is BS... Bop is and always has been an escort. "Escort" is a politically correct way of saying Warship/raider... the Sisko said so.
I asked for some sort of BS console so it can be sold on the Cstore (I could give a shake if they even included a console at all)
A DOWN GRADE on the 12th boff from a Lt. Commander to an Ensign
So for asking for 3.3k hull... 0.2 shields... and a rear weapon... and saying I'll accept a drop in 2 ranks on the 12th boff ability and I'll pay you 50 bucks on top to fly it.... for that people think it seems like a crazy request? How did you people not freak out when they talked about a 5th weapons slot on a fed escort ? lol
BC (and cloaking in general) is underrated in terms of its usefulness (it's a strong flat damage buff and a tactical advantage in PUG games, what's not to like) but overrated when it comes to how the designers originally intended it to be used. A Fed Sci captain with a decent head on his shoulders is the hardest counter to pretty much every factional KDF ship there is, it's just that FvK isn't very serious these days so you don't see many teams using the tools available to them for the game mode.
Very true... the battle cloak is fantastic for fighting pugs... the last year or so even more so.
That is part of what makes me find all the resistance to the idea of an proper bop option to be funny... a battle cloaking bop on par with a low level escort for stats WILL not be OP. There will be no uber klink premade that will show up the fed premades... it simply won't happen... perhaps they can provide some fun matches again... but frankly we can do that now with the Nogh...
and honestly the more I think about it what I asked for isn't really much better then the Nogh I am flying now... so perhaps Cryptic wouldn't get my money after all... well unless they throw in a couple Quad Dual Heavy Disruptor cannons, which is reasonable. lol
So for asking for 3.3k hull... 0.2 shields... and a rear weapon... and saying I'll accept a drop in 2 ranks on the 12th boff ability and I'll pay you 50 bucks on top to fly it.... for that people think it seems like a crazy request?
I wouldn't say it's crazy but I think it is exactly the line where the Fleet Norgh stopped and your proposal went over it.
3.3k hull works out to what, 4.3k total extra hull after skills?
That plus a rear weapon puts it very very close to Escort territory but with more overall advantages.
The difference with why I think we don't see players griping over the Norgh is the above, even with all of its advantages it is still a Raider design mechanically.
It gives up 1 console (vs. Fleet ships)
It gives up Escort level hull
It gives up 1 rear weapon
It's a single character unlock, with no new artwork
And in return it gets the single best BOFF layout in the entire game & retains battle cloak, high turn rate, etc.
Thats only because you are buying into the "raider" mentality that Cryptic beat into us.
You where around for launch... was the bop vs Fleet /advanced escort... really as drastic as it is now when you take... Fleet bop vs Fleet Fed ship(s)... power creep has pushed the fed escorts to a point that they are MUCH MUCH better then the bop.
The fed escorts never used to have extra consoles did they?
How about non tactical Lt. Commanders, surely not?
They never got and Turn Rate and impulse mod buffs right?
They for sure never did anything crazy like add hangers bays to them with no cost did they?
I am not trying to sound bitter on it... but really. Every NEW bop that has hit in the form of a fleet version (until the very recent buff to the Norg that puts its numbers what 8% higher then the old RA hegh that ran with the MK X launch fed escorts) has had LESS hull and LESS shields... and still they havn't added the console slots that the fed ships have simply been handed... with out even having to purchase the darn things. lol
The other side of the coin is the Science vessel take on things... the BOP Used to be the klingon science ship... really in the first year of the game the bop was the klingon sci ship... you load some extra sci on it and you do your thing... more fire power them the fed much less sci no subsystem targeting ect.... and now at this point the bop isn't even a serious consideration as far as comparing it to a fed sci ship. The only semi saviour for the the KDF is we can run the KDF version of the time ship lockbox ship... and the Orb (which the time ship replaces of course).
Honestly I still don't think dropping the stupid "Raider" title like its some licence to make sure Cryptic never has to deal with "claoking coward" QQ again... would be a good thing for the KDF. The bop is the KDFs main WARSHIP. I do wish the raptor had never made launch... cause then it wouldn't have been possible for the replacement devs 2 years ago to tag "raider" on the bop as an excuse to stop any and all power creep from effecting it.
Honestly I still don't think dropping the stupid "Raider" title like its some licence to make sure Cryptic never has to deal with "claoking coward" QQ again... would be a good thing for the KDF. The bop is the KDFs main WARSHIP. I do wish the raptor had never made launch... cause then it wouldn't have been possible for the replacement devs 2 years ago to tag "raider" on the bop as an excuse to stop any and all power creep from effecting it.
What would have likely happened is that Battle cloak wouldn't have existed, turn rate would have been lower and it would have been more hull. So it would have been designed as a raptor, and called a bird of prey.
Cryptic seems to design their stealth classes in a specific way.
I wouldn't say it's crazy but I think it is exactly the line where the Fleet Norgh stopped and your proposal went over it.
3.3k hull works out to what, 4.3k total extra hull after skills?
That plus a rear weapon puts it very very close to Escort territory but with more overall advantages.
The difference with why I think we don't see players griping over the Norgh is the above, even with all of its advantages it is still a Raider design mechanically.
It gives up 1 console(2 tactical consoles) (vs. Fleet ships)
It gives up Escort level hull (1/4 of the hull)
It gives up 1 rear weapon
It's a single character unlock, with no new artwork
And in return it gets the single best BOFF layout in the entire game & retains battle cloak (fleet tactical retrofit has the cloacking device), high turn rate (22 vs 17), etc.
This is comparing the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit vs the Fleet Ning'tao Bird-of-Prey Retrofit. Both are Tier III Shipyard ships.
So yes, the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit is better. However you look at it.
I wouldn't say it's crazy but I think it is exactly the line where the Fleet Norgh stopped and your proposal went over it.
First of all, I refuse to believe that the Fleet Norgh ever got it's own debate at Cryptic over the recent buff. I think it got caught up in a batch of updated hulls and shields. So I don't think the line where the Florgh stopped was chosen with malice aforethought.
Regardless, what crosses the line is a $50 Zen infusion. IMO it's still a pretty modest request when held up against the Kumari.
Still, I bought the Bortasqu bundle mostly out of KDF solidarity. I'd probably buy this if it came with nothing more than a painstick emote for the same reasons.
_______________ CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that? Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
IDK if it'd be an answer to the new escort but I'd love to see 3 new BoPs.
Drop the all uni for all of them. Give'm fixed slots with maybe a Lt.C uni, maybe an Ensign uni. That way you can give them better shields/hull and another console.
Tac version is a base line, Engy has better hull no bc and turns slower, theirs your Kvort some sort of strange hybrid BoP/healer. Sci has better shields no bc turns better then Engy slower than Tac. 4 consoles for the main role, 3 and 2 to round it out. I dont need 10, but thats me.
I'd even consider giving the sci version typical sci stuff, sub targeting 3/3 weapons that sort of thing, 4/4 for the engy version. New escort, weird light cruiser and sci ship for kdf and yet all iconic bird of prey design.
Think it'd be cool, but I doubt it would happen, ever. Wishful thinking I guess.
kdf ships all being fairly maneuverable, save for carriers, is a plus for dealing with incoming spike. its the fed cruisers that will be the most overwhelmed
give the fleet qin a 5th weapon, if this DARK road is to be gone down. its already got lots of negatives, so 1 big positive is sorta needed on it.
Still, I bought the Bortasqu bundle mostly out of KDF solidarity. I'd probably buy this if it came with nothing more than a painstick emote for the same reasons.
kdf ships all being fairly maneuverable, save for carriers, is a plus for dealing with incoming spike. its the fed cruisers that will be the most overwhelmed
give the fleet qin a 5th weapon, if this DARK road is to be gone down. its already got lots of negatives, so 1 big positive is sorta needed on it.
Na we klinks need to demand Cryptic forgets that abomination ever existed.
I stand by what I said... I would really love to see the raptor deleted from the game. I wish CBS would call up and say hey wth is this that design isn't cool with us man. lol
The raptor is what has allowed Cryptic to shovel us garbage for our BOP... The real KDF escort for 3 years.
The point I was making earlier... is the BOP was NOT the same ship at launch that it is now.
The consoles it has now are the EXACT same as they where at launch. EVERY other ship has gotten upgrades.
The Hull and Shield numbers on the bop are (Norg not withstanding... and not much better) EXACTLY the same as they where at launch... no upgrades there friends.
The Weapons points it has now... are the EXACT same as they where at launch.
So you ask what HAS the bop been given to keep up with the power creep ?
One model with an advanced battle cloak... trading almost 1/3 of its hull and shields to get... with no other real bonus. (at least the skin is iconic)
One model that gains 1 lovely console. ya know the one the fed ships got just cause... and again trade 1/3 of your hull and shield for that boys.
The Norg honestly the more I look at the numbers seems like a mistake... and I am waiting for Crytpic to just silently put it back after a patch... wooops we didn't mean to do that. lol
I don't intend to sound like the grumpy old klingon... really though look at ALL the ships in this game... consider all the NEW adds that have better hulls shields boffs extra consoles...
The only class of ships that have remained almost exactly the same since launch is the Bird of prey... its not the galaxy where they go hey why did we only put 3 weapons back there add the 4th. lol... they haven't said hey fleet ship... sure every fleet ship gets an extra console. WHY ? Why is it that every single other ship in this game gets a console upgrade come fleet time accept the bop ?Well one did... but then it got none of the other fleet version upgrades either right. Like we should be happy that it got any upgrade at all and just dish out our 20 bucks.
Listen when I make this thread I'm not annoyed with Cryptic... I think the launch devs had a very different thing in mind with the bop... I think the devs that came around a year later... heard nothing but EVIL KLINK EVIL BOP... Battle cloak is op its op I tell ya. So sure when they where balancing the game they where in no rush to boost the bop. Its around that time they came up with the "raider" as a class idea. From that point on the bop stayed the same as every other escort and sci ship marched on.
There was a time in year 1 when a BOP could fly 1v1s vs fed escorts ... and they where FUN.
Was it fun because the bop would decloak and send the poor fed to respawn ?
No it was in fact a good match... good fed escort pilots where still insanely hard to beat in a bop.. however the bop didn't explode if the fed managed to get a weapons lock for 2 seconds either.
That is what I would like to see in this game again... which is WHY the ship needs to at least gain a 12th boff slot, a rear weapon ... of course it deserves it. Frankly after Cryptic started fleshing out the other ships... they should have added it onto ALL the bops... but now if it only comes on the 50 dollar version so be it.
Anyway... take an objective look at ALL the games ships.
Look at what has replaced it stat wise... and what has directly replaced with fleet versions or Cstore versions like the regent... ect.
Then look at the launch ships. The bop was around at launch... and it has for the most part been untouched. We have been saying power creep has been running it over for over 2 years now. At this point it has become beyond silly. The bop is out classed by pretty much every other Escort ship. I am not asking for it to get even the lowest of the low fed escort hull numbers, My numbers would still put it below even the lowest fed escort. I don't think there is any honest justification for it to have one less weapon slot then every other ship. I also don't think there is any reason for it to have one less boff slot. (we know that's not game breaking as the Norg has one more skill slot and its much higher rank to boot)... I don't see any nerf the Norg threads... mustn't be all that op I guess.
If anyone from Cryptic is Reading this... what I have asked for is NOT game breaking... it is NOT overpowered... it WILL however make you money. It WILL bring new and some old people into the game. It Will show everyone playing the game that you are serious about having a second faction... STOP and don't even think about adding a third if you can't even keep a second faction current with the power creep. I simply ask Cryptic... take an objective look at the Bird of Prey class... can you honestly justify halting any improvements to the class at launch(4 years ago) ? Because honestly everything the BOP has gotten in fleet versions has been payed for with a trade off. Its time to do the same thing for the KDF and the Bird that you have been doing for Orion and Naus... and Andorian... and UBER sci cruiser things.... BUMP it to a point that people drop CASH. Nothing I asked for can't be argued to be 100% balanced... unlike many of the design choices you have already made.... so CASH in boys.
KDF dont need more ships with cloak. Give us Hirogen attack ships, with same stats as Andorian ones. Period.
No thanks... I fly KDF not Voyager cast of races.
Feds have gotten Multiple FEDERATION Hot dog and paper plate version upgrades over the last 4 years... they don't need to pretend to be captured Gorn or silly green pirates to fly a proper ship.
This is interesting, but before I settle down for a big read I just want to say the Klingon battlecruiser is the symbol of Klingon mantra's. Decloaking and firing from behind isn't really honorable, is it? Plus Klingons are big and strong, not small and agile.
This is interesting, but before I settle down for a big read I just want to say the Klingon battlecruiser is the symbol of Klingon mantra's. Decloaking and firing from behind isn't really honorable, is it? Plus Klingons are big and strong, not small and agile.
So many people have an odd sense of what honor is to a Klink.
" ...one of the most versatile warships employed by the Empire, serving a variety of mission roles, including that of a scout, raider, patrol ship, and cruiser." Hmmm I do see raider in there... I also see PATROL escort... and even Cruiser. ;0
"Though the Bird-of-Prey design had been in service for nearly one hundred years, constant upgrades ensured that the ships were still a powerful and capable front-line warship." Yes those crazy Klingons trying to keep there tech current for shame.
"In the hands of a seasoned and aggressive commander, a Bird-of-Prey could engage multiple Dominion fighters and expect to come out victorious." not in STO that's for sure.
"The Bird-of-Prey of the mid-24th century was said to be equipped with the Klingon Empire's "best weapons" and "finest warriors" If its not honorable I doubt it would be the flag ship for the KDFs best warriors.
I agree fleet ships are a great money maker... and with the specs I am proposing it wouldn't be "fleet" level it would be cash grab level and that's fine... the other faction has multiple cash grabs in the cstore now. Why not even it up.
To answer your question YES balance is out the window already... Vesta and Kumari 100% prove that fact. So why are they NOT cashing in on the Klink players.... seriously if the specs I proposed hit the cstore... do you think it wouldn't sell ? of course it would because its slighly op.... but you could argue that it doesn't break balance at all... and frankly I would put my money on a team built out of Kumari and vestas vs a "Retro Hegh" team any day. Is the design I propose really out of line with what the 2 new 3 pack fed ships offer... not at all... in fact I went tame.
As far as people being upset about 1-20... who cares... less BS leveling sounds good to me. Klink content... who cares don't waste your time. As long as my klink toons can do the featured stuff I don't care about klink content. People that play Klink mainly do for PvP or/and to fly a klink ship... klink missions... the badly written Cryptic style no thanks. I'll roll around the one pvp zone we have and the ques role playing my Klink warrior doing what Klink warriors do...
Man I sure would love to drop $50 on a new bop though Cryptic.
This is interesting, but before I settle down for a big read I just want to say the Klingon battlecruiser is the symbol of Klingon mantra's. Decloaking and firing from behind isn't really honorable, is it? Plus Klingons are big and strong, not small and agile.
Iirc, there Raiders actually lost the rear weapon mount early on.
Also, I thought there were slight boosts to hull around Season 5, but maybe that was just the B'rel.
But, the overall point I agree with. Raiders have been left in the dust. Really, the Vet ship is the closest thing to what the Fleet Raiders should have been like, but w/less hull, more speed and Sci Boff/Console Oriented option as well. I'm still hoping the Romulans come w/a Sci Oriented Raider Feds can't get.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Comments
No worries, I'm just breaking your chops (forum pew is the only pew I can get at work
If its just RP purposes, wouldn't a standard cloak be sufficient?
You still have alpha strike capability, and no fear of accidentally cloaking in the heat combat and getting yourself killed. :P
That's a ROI issue, as much as some (not you) players think that Cryptic actually has something against KDF players - the truth is that this is a company willing to sell anything as long as there is low risk involved.
The KDF is very clearly not a profitable proposition in its current state.
Here is how I'd re-write your proposal
Hegh'ta "Heavy Assault" Bird-of-Prey Retrofit
Hegh'ta (BOP refit)
Cloak
Type:Heavy Raider
Hull:28,000
Shield 0.9
Crew 100
Turn Rate: 18
Impulse Modifier:0.20
Inertia rating:60
Fore Weapons 4 Hard points
Rear Weapons 3 Hard points
Special KDF themed consoles 1, 2 & 3
Set Bonuses
2 Piece = +25% damage bonus to Disruptors, +30 to Stealth Skill
3 Piece = Upgrades cloak to Battle Cloak for 20s (fixed duration), 180s CD.
TAC Version
Bonus Power:+15 weapons power
CMD Tac / Lt. Commander Uni / Lt Tac / Lt Uni / Ensign Tac (Just be glad it wasn't a Lt, I would hate this layout just like I hate it on the Kumari, Defiant, MVAE & HEC - but hey its an Ensign that BoPs have never had!:P)
Consoles
5 Tactical
2 Sci
3 Engi
ENG Version
Bonus Power:+10 Shields & +5 Engine power
CMD Tac / Lt. Commander Uni / Lt Tac / Lt Eng / Ensign Uni
Consoles
4 Tactical
2 Sci
4 Engi
SCI Version
Bonus Power:+15 aux power
CMD Tac / Lt. Commander Uni / Lt Tac / Lt Sci / Ensign Uni
Consoles
4 Tactical
4 Sci
2 Engi
Summary:
> Improved Hull & Shielding vs. standard BoPs
> Retains more customizability than any single Fed Escort
> Gains 1 rear weapon slot
> Keeps "free" non-console cloak ability
> BC capable with set bonus
> 2nd piece set bonus means nearly 5 tac consoles for all versions and almost 6 full tac consoles for Tac version (sacrifice is Tac Ensign)
> Still has better base turn than any available Fed escort
> Console layouts are more focused, and less flexible, as is the design with most Escorts
Without the Battle Cloak and the universal stations the Bird of Prey would be nothing but a shuttle with cannons.
So yes, I think the BoP deserves a little boost. It might be a better BC, another cannon, another turret, another tactical console ... But not a better hull/shield.
And yes, the escort is better, but not that much.
1. Fed power creep, in particular Vesta and Kumari, **** even the Steamrunner, and the rules they break. These are the rules that deemed the BoP in need of 2 aft slots and penalties to SP and HP.
2. The Fleet Norgh and Ho'Sus. Seriously. Take a look since the last patch. Then apply the logic that a Z-Store console ship should be a smidge above a fleet ship.
KDF has every right to demand a 5 tac console 5 forward weapon ship. The ship in the OP is actually a conservative request, IMO, made with the political and butthurtical fallout in mind.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
Balance is an issue since CRYPTIC is showing alot of bias when it concerns the KDF they give new shis perks etc to the feds why did they make the KDF in the first place if they dont plan on completing it and nerf the BoP to an almost unusable status.
Me personally im not asking for some super ship that cannot be beaten all i want is a BoP that can hang in a fight with the feds and not blow up the first time someone sneezes on it.
Back to the balance thing this game has some minor balance issues by way of completion to ships and stats...ive played a game with MAJOR balance issues and take it from me id rather have this minor balance issue then the one i left behind.
Tons of other fun ideas in this thread as well I bet we'd all be glad if even one of them was picked up!
I mostly suggested it the way I did because it is extremely doable for Cryptic. The ship skins all exist... the layouts all exists all they have to do is edit a few files to enable a third rear weapon and add a console slot... unless there code is beyond messed up that should be no more then 1 hour of work...
Cryptic has great artists and I have no doubt they could pull off the 2D icon and 3d art for 3 console abilities in an hour or so... all they would need in my design would be something simple for the tac console a extra glow on the engines or something... add the same glow to the deflector for the sci version... the engi idea with healing pets... perhaps they change that to be a on hull effect... and take the polarized hull effect change the hue and boom done... the AOE 3 part same thing take the aoe field effect they have reused for KHG 3 part ect... change the HUE to a nice bright Klingon Empire Red and thats knocked out.
Bottom line they could pull off what I suggested in less then a days worth of work... and I think they would make the wages of 2-3 guys back off the first 10 sales... and I think we have had at least as many people post here saying they would be down to drop 40-50 bucks on just such a pack.
I can think of all sorts of cool things they could do with ship design... but the idea was KDF isn't getting any major multi week dev project... but what about a 1 day knock out a CSTORE bop based on an existing skin project... how can that NOT make them $.
I could roll with your idea for a fixed ensign slot... that has some symmetry with what has been going on with feds getting uni ensigns. A good idea and might make the fed types that got the first brel nerfed happy.
Really the good conscience thing does make me laugh though... have you flown the Nogh since its recent buff ?
It gets a 12th boff slot... but its a Lt. Cmder... and gives up almost no hull over the over the hegh... in fact it has 24,700 and a .88 (hegh is 24 and .8)... so in every way it is BETTER then the hegh and adds not just an ensign but a Lt Commander slot. lol
Why would anyone fly what you suggest over the Fleet nogh, that we already have... let alone drop 50 bucks on it. Yours adds a tac console but at a cost of another ? That isn't a gain and the bonus consoles would be nice but again at the cost of a slot... I'm sorry with what the feds have been getting that is simply NOT cool. I suggested 28k hull and I think I'll stick with that... its 3300k more hull then the best bop we have right now... and I don't think that's crazy AT all... considering our friends on the other side of the arena are now sporting 5 dhc escorts. one cannon crit will remove that bonus.... and I will stick with .9 shielding again... its .2 better then the best bop no... again NOT crazy.
A third rear weapon... again I don't see how its game breaking... and I don't honestly understand the reasoning behind the bop only having 2 slots back there to begin with.
The Ensign slot... ya fixed makes no matter... but it needs one... and frankly by suggesting it I am suggesting a NERF to the current top bop the Nogh which does't have the Ensign but does have an extra Lt. Commander Slot.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
This is a run down on the
Fleet Ning'tao Bird-of-Prey Retrofit
Type:Raider
Hull:24,750
Shield Modifier:0.88
Crew:75
Boffs
Commander / Lt Commander / Lt Commander / LT
Turn Rate:22
Impulse Modifier:0.20
Inertia rating:70
Bonus Power:+15 weapons power
Consoles 3 3 3
This is what I asked for in my OP
Hegh'ta (Tactical Version BOP refit)
Battle Cloak
Type:Raider
Hull:28,000
Shield 0.9
Crew 100
Turn Rate:22
Impulse Modifier:0.20
Inertia rating:60
Bonus Power:+15 weapons power
Boffs.
Commander / Lt. Commander / Lt / Lt / Ensign
Consoles
4 3 3
So to sum it up I asked for
3300k in hull
0.2 extra shield mod
A boost of ONE rear weapons slot and a console (which is no more then every other ship of its class) sorry raider is BS... Bop is and always has been an escort. "Escort" is a politically correct way of saying Warship/raider... the Sisko said so.
I asked for some sort of BS console so it can be sold on the Cstore (I could give a shake if they even included a console at all)
A DOWN GRADE on the 12th boff from a Lt. Commander to an Ensign
So for asking for 3.3k hull... 0.2 shields... and a rear weapon... and saying I'll accept a drop in 2 ranks on the 12th boff ability and I'll pay you 50 bucks on top to fly it.... for that people think it seems like a crazy request? How did you people not freak out when they talked about a 5th weapons slot on a fed escort ? lol
Very true... the battle cloak is fantastic for fighting pugs... the last year or so even more so.
That is part of what makes me find all the resistance to the idea of an proper bop option to be funny... a battle cloaking bop on par with a low level escort for stats WILL not be OP. There will be no uber klink premade that will show up the fed premades... it simply won't happen... perhaps they can provide some fun matches again... but frankly we can do that now with the Nogh...
and honestly the more I think about it what I asked for isn't really much better then the Nogh I am flying now... so perhaps Cryptic wouldn't get my money after all... well unless they throw in a couple Quad Dual Heavy Disruptor cannons, which is reasonable. lol
I wouldn't say it's crazy but I think it is exactly the line where the Fleet Norgh stopped and your proposal went over it.
3.3k hull works out to what, 4.3k total extra hull after skills?
That plus a rear weapon puts it very very close to Escort territory but with more overall advantages.
The difference with why I think we don't see players griping over the Norgh is the above, even with all of its advantages it is still a Raider design mechanically.
It gives up 1 console (vs. Fleet ships)
It gives up Escort level hull
It gives up 1 rear weapon
It's a single character unlock, with no new artwork
And in return it gets the single best BOFF layout in the entire game & retains battle cloak, high turn rate, etc.
You where around for launch... was the bop vs Fleet /advanced escort... really as drastic as it is now when you take... Fleet bop vs Fleet Fed ship(s)... power creep has pushed the fed escorts to a point that they are MUCH MUCH better then the bop.
The fed escorts never used to have extra consoles did they?
How about non tactical Lt. Commanders, surely not?
They never got and Turn Rate and impulse mod buffs right?
They for sure never did anything crazy like add hangers bays to them with no cost did they?
I am not trying to sound bitter on it... but really. Every NEW bop that has hit in the form of a fleet version (until the very recent buff to the Norg that puts its numbers what 8% higher then the old RA hegh that ran with the MK X launch fed escorts) has had LESS hull and LESS shields... and still they havn't added the console slots that the fed ships have simply been handed... with out even having to purchase the darn things. lol
The other side of the coin is the Science vessel take on things... the BOP Used to be the klingon science ship... really in the first year of the game the bop was the klingon sci ship... you load some extra sci on it and you do your thing... more fire power them the fed much less sci no subsystem targeting ect.... and now at this point the bop isn't even a serious consideration as far as comparing it to a fed sci ship. The only semi saviour for the the KDF is we can run the KDF version of the time ship lockbox ship... and the Orb (which the time ship replaces of course).
Honestly I still don't think dropping the stupid "Raider" title like its some licence to make sure Cryptic never has to deal with "claoking coward" QQ again... would be a good thing for the KDF. The bop is the KDFs main WARSHIP. I do wish the raptor had never made launch... cause then it wouldn't have been possible for the replacement devs 2 years ago to tag "raider" on the bop as an excuse to stop any and all power creep from effecting it.
I wasn't. I am a cheater.
What would have likely happened is that Battle cloak wouldn't have existed, turn rate would have been lower and it would have been more hull. So it would have been designed as a raptor, and called a bird of prey.
Cryptic seems to design their stealth classes in a specific way.
They even have STO counterparts for the Fed Snoozer, Escort and badguy Battle Cruiser.
This is comparing the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit vs the Fleet Ning'tao Bird-of-Prey Retrofit. Both are Tier III Shipyard ships.
So yes, the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit is better. However you look at it.
Regardless, what crosses the line is a $50 Zen infusion. IMO it's still a pretty modest request when held up against the Kumari.
Still, I bought the Bortasqu bundle mostly out of KDF solidarity. I'd probably buy this if it came with nothing more than a painstick emote for the same reasons.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
Drop the all uni for all of them. Give'm fixed slots with maybe a Lt.C uni, maybe an Ensign uni. That way you can give them better shields/hull and another console.
Tac version is a base line, Engy has better hull no bc and turns slower, theirs your Kvort some sort of strange hybrid BoP/healer. Sci has better shields no bc turns better then Engy slower than Tac. 4 consoles for the main role, 3 and 2 to round it out. I dont need 10, but thats me.
I'd even consider giving the sci version typical sci stuff, sub targeting 3/3 weapons that sort of thing, 4/4 for the engy version. New escort, weird light cruiser and sci ship for kdf and yet all iconic bird of prey design.
Think it'd be cool, but I doubt it would happen, ever. Wishful thinking I guess.
Actually, strike that. A shuttle is overpowered by comparison.
give the fleet qin a 5th weapon, if this DARK road is to be gone down. its already got lots of negatives, so 1 big positive is sorta needed on it.
I am a ******ned fool.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
Poor soul didnt have time to log out.
Na we klinks need to demand Cryptic forgets that abomination ever existed.
I stand by what I said... I would really love to see the raptor deleted from the game. I wish CBS would call up and say hey wth is this that design isn't cool with us man.
The raptor is what has allowed Cryptic to shovel us garbage for our BOP... The real KDF escort for 3 years.
The point I was making earlier... is the BOP was NOT the same ship at launch that it is now.
The consoles it has now are the EXACT same as they where at launch. EVERY other ship has gotten upgrades.
The Hull and Shield numbers on the bop are (Norg not withstanding... and not much better) EXACTLY the same as they where at launch... no upgrades there friends.
The Weapons points it has now... are the EXACT same as they where at launch.
So you ask what HAS the bop been given to keep up with the power creep ?
One model with an advanced battle cloak... trading almost 1/3 of its hull and shields to get... with no other real bonus. (at least the skin is iconic)
One model that gains 1 lovely console. ya know the one the fed ships got just cause... and again trade 1/3 of your hull and shield for that boys.
The Norg honestly the more I look at the numbers seems like a mistake... and I am waiting for Crytpic to just silently put it back after a patch... wooops we didn't mean to do that. lol
I don't intend to sound like the grumpy old klingon... really though look at ALL the ships in this game... consider all the NEW adds that have better hulls shields boffs extra consoles...
The only class of ships that have remained almost exactly the same since launch is the Bird of prey... its not the galaxy where they go hey why did we only put 3 weapons back there add the 4th. lol... they haven't said hey fleet ship... sure every fleet ship gets an extra console. WHY ? Why is it that every single other ship in this game gets a console upgrade come fleet time accept the bop ?Well one did... but then it got none of the other fleet version upgrades either right. Like we should be happy that it got any upgrade at all and just dish out our 20 bucks.
Listen when I make this thread I'm not annoyed with Cryptic... I think the launch devs had a very different thing in mind with the bop... I think the devs that came around a year later... heard nothing but EVIL KLINK EVIL BOP... Battle cloak is op its op I tell ya. So sure when they where balancing the game they where in no rush to boost the bop. Its around that time they came up with the "raider" as a class idea. From that point on the bop stayed the same as every other escort and sci ship marched on.
There was a time in year 1 when a BOP could fly 1v1s vs fed escorts ... and they where FUN.
Was it fun because the bop would decloak and send the poor fed to respawn ?
No it was in fact a good match... good fed escort pilots where still insanely hard to beat in a bop.. however the bop didn't explode if the fed managed to get a weapons lock for 2 seconds either.
That is what I would like to see in this game again... which is WHY the ship needs to at least gain a 12th boff slot, a rear weapon ... of course it deserves it. Frankly after Cryptic started fleshing out the other ships... they should have added it onto ALL the bops... but now if it only comes on the 50 dollar version so be it.
Anyway... take an objective look at ALL the games ships.
Look at what has replaced it stat wise... and what has directly replaced with fleet versions or Cstore versions like the regent... ect.
Then look at the launch ships. The bop was around at launch... and it has for the most part been untouched. We have been saying power creep has been running it over for over 2 years now. At this point it has become beyond silly. The bop is out classed by pretty much every other Escort ship. I am not asking for it to get even the lowest of the low fed escort hull numbers, My numbers would still put it below even the lowest fed escort. I don't think there is any honest justification for it to have one less weapon slot then every other ship. I also don't think there is any reason for it to have one less boff slot. (we know that's not game breaking as the Norg has one more skill slot and its much higher rank to boot)... I don't see any nerf the Norg threads... mustn't be all that op I guess.
If anyone from Cryptic is Reading this... what I have asked for is NOT game breaking... it is NOT overpowered... it WILL however make you money. It WILL bring new and some old people into the game. It Will show everyone playing the game that you are serious about having a second faction... STOP and don't even think about adding a third if you can't even keep a second faction current with the power creep. I simply ask Cryptic... take an objective look at the Bird of Prey class... can you honestly justify halting any improvements to the class at launch(4 years ago) ? Because honestly everything the BOP has gotten in fleet versions has been payed for with a trade off. Its time to do the same thing for the KDF and the Bird that you have been doing for Orion and Naus... and Andorian... and UBER sci cruiser things.... BUMP it to a point that people drop CASH. Nothing I asked for can't be argued to be 100% balanced... unlike many of the design choices you have already made.... so CASH in boys.
No thanks... I fly KDF not Voyager cast of races.
Feds have gotten Multiple FEDERATION Hot dog and paper plate version upgrades over the last 4 years... they don't need to pretend to be captured Gorn or silly green pirates to fly a proper ship.
Granted that's better then no option.
https://youtube.com/channel/UCJZ5FBJ9bFaZ6yAFiNpZiRQ/featured?view_as=subscriber
Twitter:
https://twitter.com/CaptainCidStorm
So many people have an odd sense of what honor is to a Klink.
Victory brings honor... nothing else.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Klingon_Bird-of-Prey
A few quotes from our friends at Mem alpha...
" ...one of the most versatile warships employed by the Empire, serving a variety of mission roles, including that of a scout, raider, patrol ship, and cruiser." Hmmm I do see raider in there... I also see PATROL escort... and even Cruiser. ;0
"Though the Bird-of-Prey design had been in service for nearly one hundred years, constant upgrades ensured that the ships were still a powerful and capable front-line warship." Yes those crazy Klingons trying to keep there tech current for shame.
"In the hands of a seasoned and aggressive commander, a Bird-of-Prey could engage multiple Dominion fighters and expect to come out victorious." not in STO that's for sure.
"The Bird-of-Prey of the mid-24th century was said to be equipped with the Klingon Empire's "best weapons" and "finest warriors" If its not honorable I doubt it would be the flag ship for the KDFs best warriors.
Bra frickin Vo! Everything you just said!
Has this guy even seen a trek episode?
Also, I thought there were slight boosts to hull around Season 5, but maybe that was just the B'rel.
But, the overall point I agree with. Raiders have been left in the dust. Really, the Vet ship is the closest thing to what the Fleet Raiders should have been like, but w/less hull, more speed and Sci Boff/Console Oriented option as well. I'm still hoping the Romulans come w/a Sci Oriented Raider Feds can't get.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
R.I.P