I've played STO since it came out, subbing off and on; have never posted in the forums, and have been fairly content to sit back and let the developers work there magic, as they have done a good job in my eyes.
the Kumari is far from the only C-store (or Lobi) ship to go live with serious issues.
Vesta hangar cooldown?
Armitage unable to slot entire weapons categories?
Recluse launching stupidly bugged amounts of fighters?
And that's just off the top of my head...
To Cryptic , the "omg wow!" factor that they get from releasing a PR statement about a new ship coming "tomorrow" is worth more then putting a new Lockbox / Lobi ship on Tribble for a week for a shakedown .
The surprise/buzz is worth more to them then the actual functionality of the product .
I find this both unethical and disturbing .
And to this I will tell you what I said somewhere else : I am VERY glad that these ppl don't deal with life or death situations .
Been there , done that , not fun .
Your version of the story is "well there are bugs in every program" while you pat Cryptic on the head .
My version is : do you expect to get to Mars (or anywhere else for that matter) with that kind of attitude ?
You applaud programming mediocrity , you applaud bad QA procedure , and apparently you even believe the line about "we've learned from this experience" .
And no , I don't have to go work for cryptic to fix their S%!t . Not my job , not my field .
But I too have been here for a long time and the things that get priority fixes in this game have me more and more worried .
In fact I am concerned that as the game grows , Cryptic is loosing the ability to "make it go" correctly .
More and more bugs ,less and less going back to fix things .
Season 7 is a prime example of that .
And instead of doing right by the game (and their costumers) , Cryptic rushes on ahead to deliver a code update (Season 8) that is supposed to be either 3-4 times the size of a normal Season , or the rest of Season 7 .
Either way -- I am REALLY CONCERNED about the amount of bugs a Season such as that will introduce with their current lack of QA/QC .
You tell me Mr. software professional : do you think the game will handle such an amount of incoming bugs ?
EDIT : you know , on second thought maybe you should not bother to answer that question , as it seems that our ideas about "quality" and "proper work" seem to be way too far apart -- thus making your answer irrelevant to me .
Just thought I'd chime in once more regarding this issue:
Now that I've been forced to obtain fleet marks via the same dull fleet actions I've encountered AFKers who have completely destroyed the action. This morning the same AFK'er appeared in two consecutive missions! :mad: Reported the AFK'er - which is what we should all be doing and hopefully (though quite doubtful) that person will be temporarily banned from FA.
I would have tried for a third mission but I was already sick of the game after that.
Thanks for the Valentine's Patch!
There are Four Lights... say no to ARCFleet: 1st Order of Role-Players' Guild - gaming together since 2004
It does not matter if PWE/Cryptic believes we are a "majority" of customers that are speaking out in the forums to say that the lack of QA is wrong or that the QA process is broken...
What matters is that... IT IS THE TRUTH as posted by Dan himself!
He continues to APPROVE the bad code that does not go through any realistic form of QA!
PWE/Crytpic (Someone higher than Dan Please) Where are you!
PWE/Cryptic Why DON'T you listen to your Customers!
Just thought I'd chime in once more regarding this issue:
Now that I've been forced to obtain fleet marks via the same dull fleet actions I've encountered AFKers who have completely destroyed the action. This morning the same AFK'er appeared in two consecutive missions! :mad: Reported the AFK'er - which is what we should all be doing and hopefully (though quite doubtful) that person will be temporarily banned from FA.
I would have tried for a third mission but I was already sick of the game after that.
Thanks for the Valentine's Patch!
why work if someone will do it for u right? ........
makes me wish there was a friendly fire option in the teamed missions
maybe we need some space piracy, hunt them down and loot their latinum vaults
"Tickle us, do we not laugh? Prick us, do we not bleed? Wrong us, shall we not revenge?" -General Chang
why work if someone will do it for u right? ........
makes me wish there was a friendly fire option in the teamed missions
maybe we need some space piracy, hunt them down and loot their latinum vaults
Don't think it would be even that hard, just scale rewards to damage dealt,damage healed through console/doff abilities,and damage taken during combat. If you don't take any or deal or heal any ,you get zero rewards.
Don't think it would be even that hard, just scale rewards to damage dealt,damage healed through console/doff abilities,and damage taken during combat. If you don't take any or deal or heal any ,you get zero rewards.
Yes, that's a novel idea. I think in order for this to work effectively the grouping system would need to allow for open Team management in that the current queue would need to be changed to allow players to form their own groups for instances. So you could open up Team panel and start a group with the text 'Non-AFK Fleet Action in X-instance, LF Heals/DPS' and that's what would display to any other players looking in Team panel for a group, so they can see what you have in group already and what you are looking for. They then apply and you get a whisper with their level/class/name and the option to accept or deny. Group leader can also 'kick', so if you get a straggler or someone who doesn't understand what NON-AFK means you can boot them. We could make this 'Fleet Instance' scenario accessible 3 times daily, idk just as examples 10am, 6pm, 10pm or something. If you get booted you cannot re-enter until next time comes around, so best not muck about with peoples groups.
Also, I think we need a Fleet instance that could be both PvE and PvP at the same time, so say you could have 2 groups of 4 or 5 people and it could be Fed v. KDF teams or Fed v. Fed teams, etc. Both sides have the same objectives and obstacles to cross to get to the end Boss and first Team to defeat it wins the match, or if 'time' expires the Team with the most 'points' will win based on captures/kills both PvP and PvE. 20-30 minutes on the instance timer maybe.
Teams could choose to PvP and try to stall the other Team or just try to shoot through to the Boss fast and win quickly. There would initially be separation between the opposing Teams, but there would be areas allowing passage through to strike the other Team for PvP points(greater value) if successful. This could reward Fleet Marks, DIL, and Omega or Rom marks say depending on the NPC enemies that were in the instance with you(random) and be rewarded based on a sliding scale of 'points' you earned while in the instance on your Team. Whether win or lose, both Teams get something for their 'points' contribution and the winning Team gets a bonus reward % based on their total points and the time left on the clock once victory is achieved(or a certain number pf points are achieved for example if you clear the entire instance of NPC's the match ends).
This is loosely based on another game I play, not perfect but I tried to tweak it a bit to fit into STO....I'm sure it could use more fine tuning but I think this would be great fun for a lot of players.
I was just thinking of something a little more simplified. If you scale the rewards, then players will police themselves. If you take away any reward for afking,there's no incentive to do it. Seemed like that may be easier to add to code as well, something that could be done quickly. adding the ability to boot players can be abused, I don't think I would want to see that implemented.
I was just thinking of something a little more simplified. If you scale the rewards, then players will police themselves. If you take away any reward for afking,there's no incentive to do it. Seemed like that may be easier to add to code as well, something that could be done quickly. adding the ability to boot players can be abused, I don't think I would want to see that implemented.
Yeah, it's something people bring up a lot about the 'kick' option being abused but from my (sadly extensive) experience with those types of games I can say IMO it works MUCH better than what we have now, and on a whole is not abused nearly as much as you would think.
Don't think it would be even that hard, just scale rewards to damage dealt,damage healed through console/doff abilities,and damage taken during combat. If you don't take any or deal or heal any ,you get zero rewards.
The problem with this idea is that it quickly runs into all the game balance issues we know and hate. By counting healing you help cruisers have a decent chance against the escorts, but sci ships still get shafted unless you count every subsystem disable, every Repel effect, every power and shield drain, and then how do you assign a numerical value to them? And if you want it to be based on actual useful performance, not just the numbers generated, then the game has to understand the tactics of the mission well enough to reward players for pushing probes away from the vortex, even if the team ultimately doesn't kill them, but penalize players for pushing probes into the vortex. It just very rapidly turns into a huge mess to do it marginally fairly. Vote to kick with time limitations at the beginning and end would work much better (say you can't kick people in the first minute or after a major 2/3rds done moment, like 2nd transformer down in ISE, 2nd gate down in KASE, or 2nd cube down in CSE). By setting it up that way a team can't kick someone for no reason at the very beginning, and they can't kick them after they've already worked their way through almost all of it (at least without setting the remainder of the team up for a major disadvantage for further hard battles).
I've been complaining about how those missions are broke and bugged for months. The bugs show a level of contempt for new players that is appalling. "Suffer through this, and give us your money."
They won't give a hoot about "new customers" until they realize they've run off all the paying customers and no one is logging on.
yea i tryed to get a mate to play sto and he got fed up with it walk away from the game after one day. said it wasnt worth the harddrive space
It's like Dan Stahl and his cronies took a dump on our plates in the patch that dropped FM's from Foundry missions. Then, when enough of us complained that we didn't want to eat sh*t, they patched again. The new patch was like giving us a napkin and then saying 'better?'. I would really like to see Dan Stahl resign from his position. He is a potential catastrophe for this game. And his PR skills are BEYOND deplorable. I have decided NOT to spend another dime on STO until such a time as Dan Stahl and team learn to flush the toilet and stop pooping on our plates.
Boycott Star Trek Online. It is the ONLY way they will listen.
The problem with this idea is that it quickly runs into all the game balance issues we know and hate. By counting healing you help cruisers have a decent chance against the escorts, but sci ships still get shafted unless you count every subsystem disable, every Repel effect, every power and shield drain, and then how do you assign a numerical value to them? And if you want it to be based on actual useful performance, not just the numbers generated, then the game has to understand the tactics of the mission well enough to reward players for pushing probes away from the vortex, even if the team ultimately doesn't kill them, but penalize players for pushing probes into the vortex. It just very rapidly turns into a huge mess to do it marginally fairly. Vote to kick with time limitations at the beginning and end would work much better (say you can't kick people in the first minute or after a major 2/3rds done moment, like 2nd transformer down in ISE, 2nd gate down in KASE, or 2nd cube down in CSE). By setting it up that way a team can't kick someone for no reason at the very beginning, and they can't kick them after they've already worked their way through almost all of it (at least without setting the remainder of the team up for a major disadvantage for further hard battles).
yea i have thought about the kick system, but with the possible abuse that could go on, like kicking someone at the very end so they dont get rewards
but i have to say ur idea solves that quite nicely
making a small window of being able to kick in say the middle 1/3 of the mission would be great. waiting just long enough to confirm they arent doing anything, but not waiting so long that ppl who contribute get kicked from spite.
in this line of thinking...
they could assign each item that has to be done/killed in a mission a percentage of mission completion, then open kicking between set percents, say 20%-50% or something
for timed missions like azure, just set kicking between set times in the count down.
for example infected conduit, which is a fav of mine
there are 8 generators, 2 transformers, 2 cubes/spheres, gate, tac cube
each time one is killed a percent is complete
generators = 4% each x8 = 32%
sphere/cube = 4% each x2 = 8%
transformers = 10% each x2 = 20%
gate = 20%
tac cube = 20%
Total = 100% and rewards
since each kill sets some trigger anyway, it shouldnt be hard to add a percent to the triggers. like killing a gen triggers ship spawns at the gate etc.
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i have thought about the rewards being based on performance in the mission also, but i dont see how u could make it fair to everyone given the large differences in professional roles. unless u count all the heals, dmg and other skills done, but that would make for a very intricate system needing to be developed. not to mention it would still put newer players at a disadvantage in missions, since their heals and dmg are both lower than veterans. and also hurt players that are really trying but keep dying, since the wait after death gets longer and longer in STFs
"Tickle us, do we not laugh? Prick us, do we not bleed? Wrong us, shall we not revenge?" -General Chang
yea i have thought about the kick system, but with the possible abuse that could go on, like kicking someone at the very end so they dont get rewards
but i have to say ur idea solves that quite nicely
making a small window of being able to kick in say the middle 1/3 of the mission would be great. waiting just long enough to confirm they arent doing anything, but not waiting so long that ppl who contribute get kicked from spite.
in this line of thinking...
they could assign each item that has to be done/killed in a mission a percentage of mission completion, then open kicking between set percents, say 20%-50% or something
for timed missions like azure, just set kicking between set times in the count down.
for example infected conduit, which is a fav of mine
there are 8 generators, 2 transformers, 2 cubes/spheres, gate, tac cube
each time one is killed a percent is complete
generators = 4% each x8 = 32%
sphere/cube = 4% each x2 = 8%
transformers = 10% each x2 = 20%
gate = 20%
tac cube = 20%
Total = 100% and rewards
since each kill sets some trigger anyway, it shouldnt be hard to add a percent to the triggers. like killing a gen triggers ship spawns at the gate etc.
I understand some apprehension about having a kick system for grouping, but really how often do you really think people just get kicked right at the end for no reason? That hardly ever happens. The game(s) I play(ed) with a system for kicking people had instances where the whole point was going in with a group to defeat the many bosses and 'roll' on the loot...if there even was any at all. In STO they've pretty much taken the RNG for loot out altogether so without that to worry about there is really 0 reason someone would abuse that system in that way, it's pointless. The STO community that I've played with for the majority is pretty mature and good natured even when it comes to instances and loot. There's bad apples sure, but the general attitude is much better than a lot of MMO's I've played. If anything I feel a 'kick' system would be even less abused here than in any other game I'm familiar with. I don't see the reason for 'need/greed' either, just 'roll/pass' should be perfectly fine.
It's like Dan Stahl and his cronies took a dump on our plates in the patch that dropped FM's from Foundry missions. Then, when enough of us complained that we didn't want to eat sh*t, they patched again. The new patch was like giving us a napkin and then saying 'better?'. I would really like to see Dan Stahl resign from his position. He is a potential catastrophe for this game. And his PR skills are BEYOND deplorable. I have decided NOT to spend another dime on STO until such a time as Dan Stahl and team learn to flush the toilet and stop pooping on our plates.
Boycott Star Trek Online. It is the ONLY way they will listen.
Agreed.
I hope they change it back to how it was before. I really do.
I read Dan's explanation at the beginning of the thread, and "We want you to play it like how we originally wanted you to" just doesn't cut it. Sorry.
I understand some apprehension about having a kick system for grouping, but really how often do you really think people just get kicked right at the end for no reason? That hardly ever happens. The game(s) I play(ed) with a system for kicking people had instances where the whole point was going in with a group to defeat the many bosses and 'roll' on the loot...if there even was any at all. In STO they've pretty much taken the RNG for loot out altogether so without that to worry about there is really 0 reason someone would abuse that system in that way, it's pointless. The STO community that I've played with for the majority is pretty mature and good natured even when it comes to instances and loot. There's bad apples sure, but the general attitude is much better than a lot of MMO's I've played. If anything I feel a 'kick' system would be even less abused here than in any other game I'm familiar with. I don't see the reason for 'need/greed' either, just 'roll/pass' should be perfectly fine.
well the whole point to my post was i was saying i liked the idea of a kick system modified like u mentioned with a window for doing it
and i have played games where kicking at the last second happened to me personally. it was team play and my team won, and the person that created the room we were in kicked me at the last second, i guess cause i got more kills than him idk. and we were on the same team btw
so there are always jerks, and a lot of them need no reason other than they are just jerks. u dont have to say or do anything to them personally, they are just that way.
seen it in plenty of games ive played.
as far as STO being better than other games as far as conduct goes.... idk, if it really was i dont think afking in STFs and FAs would be a problem like it is.
i wouldnt bank on the natural good nature of ppl, especially online, since most ppl tend to act online in ways they would never do in real life. i have seen and received chat in games and forums that i doubt anyone would have said to anyone face to face, or even over the phone. its something about the feeling of anonymity the internet provides.
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EDIT:
on a side note also
does the officer report event ingame actually do anything with the foundry missions now that IOR was taken away?
if not it needs to be removed so that a useful event can take its place
"Tickle us, do we not laugh? Prick us, do we not bleed? Wrong us, shall we not revenge?" -General Chang
EDIT:
on a side note also
does the officer report event ingame actually do anything with the foundry missions now that IOR was taken away?
if not it needs to be removed so that a useful event can take its place
i think there should there add a small dmg/heal count say 5k to unlock the reward in team missions then even a under powerd sci should still get a reward. but i would love a friendly fire button or at end off mission it sees all as enemys so we can blow AFKers away and each other for that matter :cool:
To Cryptic , the "omg wow!" factor that they get from releasing a PR statement about a new ship coming "tomorrow" is worth more then putting a new Lockbox / Lobi ship on Tribble for a week for a shakedown .
The surprise/buzz is worth more to them then the actual functionality of the product .
I find this both unethical and disturbing .
And to this I will tell you what I said somewhere else : I am VERY glad that these ppl don't deal with life or death situations .
Been there , done that , not fun .
Your version of the story is "well there are bugs in every program" while you pat Cryptic on the head .
My version is : do you expect to get to Mars (or anywhere else for that matter) with that kind of attitude ?
You applaud programming mediocrity , you applaud bad QA procedure , and apparently you even believe the line about "we've learned from this experience" .
And no , I don't have to go work for cryptic to fix their S%!t . Not my job , not my field .
But I too have been here for a long time and the things that get priority fixes in this game have me more and more worried .
In fact I am concerned that as the game grows , Cryptic is loosing the ability to "make it go" correctly .
More and more bugs ,less and less going back to fix things .
Season 7 is a prime example of that .
And instead of doing right by the game (and their costumers) , Cryptic rushes on ahead to deliver a code update (Season 8) that is supposed to be either 3-4 times the size of a normal Season , or the rest of Season 7 .
Either way -- I am REALLY CONCERNED about the amount of bugs a Season such as that will introduce with their current lack of QA/QC .
You tell me Mr. software professional : do you think the game will handle such an amount of incoming bugs ?
EDIT : you know , on second thought maybe you should not bother to answer that question , as it seems that our ideas about "quality" and "proper work" seem to be way too far apart -- thus making your answer irrelevant to me .
Are you seriously trying to imply that because I'm pointing out previous cases of Cryptic buffoonery related to c-store ships that I'm somehow accepting or excusing it?
Hasn't these thread been resloved with the last patch? Sure IOR is still gone, but the way the system was orignally designed - to get marks only from fleet type events - has been VASTLY improved.
I know it's mind numbing but on 6 toon and a booster I can get 13 runs of colony invasion in during bonus event
74 x 13 = 962 marks - doing that 3 times per week which is reasonable = over 2800 marks
5 member fleet = 14,000 marks per week
for a 5 person fleet that would cover EVERY starbase tier 3 to 4 project(900 marks x 3) every single day.
Hasn't these thread been resloved with the last patch? Sure IOR is still gone, but the way the system was orignally designed - to get marks only from fleet type events - has been VASTLY improved.
In the past that is how it's gone, but something has changed this time around. The movement has come to a collective consciousness that there's more to it than just the latest change. What we're actually upset about is a whole pattern of events, and the removal of fleet marks was just the latest example. Post #2311 on page 232 is a nice quick summary of much of what this is about.
No Dan, the MMORPG genre is not like that especially for adult audiences, maybe if your key demographic was kids with endless time then you could make that claim and argue that the this is the way the game should be. However your core demographic is middle ages Star Trek fans and may I add I doubt that unless there is a new Star Trek TV series which is genuinely popular you won't be getting in large volume of kids playing.
Our lives and habits do not lead us to enjoy grinding, you know this is true and it's why time and time again the Player Base has forced you to change your broken systems to remove grind. That is what happened in the weeks post Season 7.
This is the part where you're completely wrong and unfair with Stahl.
Yes the MMO genre is all about grind. Because repetable content is the only way to keep players doing the same thing over and over, and they day they realize they have nothing to do they don't come back, or they come back later but won't be as interested in the game as those who never stopped playing. Returning players are always the first to leave and not to spend money.
If you don't like "grind" well you should reconsider your own purposes: leading your own fleet (really? what's the point, can't you accept to be one among others in a large organization?), achieving your very own goals as soon as possible with a minimal investment in time.
I can tell you that even if people enjoy complaining about the MMOs they play (i've played only one with almost zero player complaint, this was a completely free without any profit game, and it received updtates once every two years) they also keep playing it. Everyone complains, but everyone keeps playing, as if it was a part of the game.
Many people would like to get instant rewards and gratification, but some frustration means the game is doing really well. And i'm not talking about quality of life bugs (they shouldn't exist) but about achieving specific goals. If people complain it's too slow/too hard to get it, it means the devs are successful, because you'll likely keep playing as long as this goal looks achievable.
Grind isn't just a "necessary evil" because devs can't produce content fast enough, it's the very reason why people keep playing such games. Players have long term goals, they want to do x, have y and win z, and as long as they consider it to be doable they'll keep playing. Of course as soon as it doesn't look achievable anymore people start to quit or create massive rant threads, like this one, but frustration and grind are exactly why MMOs are popular. Because you'll do whatever you have to do to get what you really want.
As a conclusion there is no MMO without grind. Because it can't exist, or it won't be as successful, or it relies on completely different mechanics (addictions, greed, sex, like second life) and it's not really a game.
As a conclusion there is no MMO without grind. Because it can't exist, or it won't be as successful, or it relies on completely different mechanics (addictions, greed, sex, like second life) and it's not really a game.
Ahem, Eve, would like to have a word with you. Its a MMO, where is the "grind"
people want less grind and more fun in this game thats all they want.
like i said many pages ago i dont read every comment or page of this thread and cryptic should write down every idea that is on this thread and see which one works the best with people in this mmo
It's like Dan Stahl and his cronies took a dump on our plates in the patch that dropped FM's from Foundry missions. Then, when enough of us complained that we didn't want to eat sh*t, they patched again. The new patch was like giving us a napkin and then saying 'better?'. I would really like to see Dan Stahl resign from his position. He is a potential catastrophe for this game. And his PR skills are BEYOND deplorable. I have decided NOT to spend another dime on STO until such a time as Dan Stahl and team learn to flush the toilet and stop pooping on our plates.
Boycott Star Trek Online. It is the ONLY way they will listen.
You will not be called 'sir' for the purpose of this text log. You will also not be treated fairly due to your unfair treatment and dishonorable conduct. With that being said, your actions are typical of metagamers who want everything, and want it now. A grand majority of this ENTIRE thread is nothing but give this to us now! do this! do that! make it better! fix everything! test everything 64 times because if you do you won't have a bug/glitch!
You people seriously think that's how any large game works? Think again and ask the intellectual, easygoing, and gentlemanly friend of yours that tolerates your presence about EverQuest. That was a game with ABSOLUTELY ZERO COMMUNICATION between players and developers/coders. This game has problems. Every game has problems. There will NEVER be a game that does not come without bugs, glitches, exploits, clipping issues, and those blasted cavebats. Expecting perfection with more than one person is redundant.
The Foundry was being abused for fleet marks, that much is clear. I've seen zone chat many times where people stated they somehow exploiting out 2k marks in half an hour. If none of you think IOR being removed is legitimate and STILL pointing fingers, might wanna ask some people in your fleet about those extra 100k FC's every half-hour/hour.
Get over it, some changes were made, and FM's are now easier than ever. I approve of STO greatly, even with all it's funny little bugs that don't need to be fixed. Scavenge Dead Targ, indeed.
A critical review of the systems and game-play in Star Trek Online
Executive Summary (tl:dr)
Increase supply of currencies
Fix legacy bugs and sort out major bugs
Ensure boring content is updated or that we have grind less of it to get rewards
Freeze or decrease currency input costs
Fix several UI issues
Ensure lockboxes are ancillary to the aim of developing real content
Fix the major issues with small fleets and fleet scaling
Treat your players properly
That should bring back the fun.
I want to bring this forward again so everyone has a chance to read it. Click the link to go back to the main post. Very articulate and well-written.
Cryptic... Devs: Heed my words. Heed OUR words: We don't want to play Grind Trek anymore. This is the FIRST weekend where I haven't spent the majority of my time in-game -- I just can't grind anymore.
In order to get an entire set of Elite gear for just one toon... I did the calculations the amount of time required is STAGGERING. Even if I spread the dilth grind across all of my toons we're looking at FOUR MONTHS of grinding to refine cap every day. That's not counting the staggering number of Fleet Marks I need to pour into a Starbase to generate the required Fleet Credits.
And this is just ONE toon. If I dedicate my time to running THIS grind how am I supposed to find time to grind my other two main toons? Borg gear? Out of the question! STFs are broken again... I'm getting one-shot'd with ALARMING frequency again. I can't even get past 9.9KM at times without getting blasted by a 250K crit.
Romulan Marks... you folks seem to have a very strange perception of just what the duties of a Vice Admiral entail -- I can count on one hand the number of times I saw a flag-officer chip-and-paint with the rest of us when I served... and those three occasions were staged photo-ops. Fact is, the New Rom Bunny Hunt and Click The Broken Machines grind is far more suited to ENTRY LEVEL players than end-game players!
There is an idea... reset the New Rom missions as an entry-level grind for new players. This allows new folks to get a taste of the good gear and it gets them to level up to endgame where they may be willing to spend money on premium content.
As it stands now I am on the verge of uninstalling the game... Putting all that effort into a grind for a set of gear is just heart-breaking.
This is not the Star Trek I started watching in 1975. This is not the Star Trek I wrote two novels for. No, this is NOT the Star Trek I wrote RPG supplements for either.
As a First Generation Trekker, I am appalled at what this has become. Simply appalled.
I'm tempted to sit down and write out a short-story based on a classic TNG episode but substitute grind mechanics for storytelling.
Picture the scene in Best Of Both Worlds where Riker and the crew are discussing potential weapons -- "The heavy gravaton beam looks promising but we simply do not have enough Fleet Marks to acquire all three pieces before the Borg reach Earth!"
Cryptic: Heed my words. The end is nearer than you think... and you are bringing it upon yourselves. Stop, reflect on what is being said here... and get back on track before you end up a footnote in Wikipedia under "Star Trek Games."
You will not be called 'sir' for the purpose of this text log. You will also not be treated fairly due to your unfair treatment and dishonorable conduct. With that being said, your actions are typical of metagamers who want everything, and want it now. A grand majority of this ENTIRE thread is nothing but give this to us now! do this! do that! make it better! fix everything! test everything 64 times because if you do you won't have a bug/glitch!
You people seriously think that's how any large game works? Think again and ask the intellectual, easygoing, and gentlemanly friend of yours that tolerates your presence about EverQuest. That was a game with ABSOLUTELY ZERO COMMUNICATION between players and developers/coders. This game has problems. Every game has problems. There will NEVER be a game that does not come without bugs, glitches, exploits, clipping issues, and those blasted cavebats. Expecting perfection with more than one person is redundant.
The Foundry was being abused for fleet marks, that much is clear. I've seen zone chat many times where people stated they somehow exploiting out 2k marks in half an hour. If none of you think IOR being removed is legitimate and STILL pointing fingers, might wanna ask some people in your fleet about those extra 100k FC's every half-hour/hour.
Get over it, some changes were made, and FM's are now easier than ever. I approve of STO greatly, even with all it's funny little bugs that don't need to be fixed. Scavenge Dead Targ, indeed.
Try reading the legitimate grievances before making such comments. This has gone beyond simple fleet marks.
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
You people seriously think that's how any large game works? Think again and ask the intellectual, easygoing, and gentlemanly friend of yours that tolerates your presence about EverQuest. That was a game with ABSOLUTELY ZERO COMMUNICATION between players and developers/coders.
No, you're completely and utterly wrong. There was a *lot* of communication in EQ, since release, and there still is. I have no idea where you got that impression. You want lack of comms, go to the swtor forums...
As a conclusion there is no MMO without grind. Because it can't exist, or it won't be as successful, or it relies on completely different mechanics (addictions, greed, sex, like second life) and it's not really a game.
And that is also utterly incorrect. Grind exists in MMO's ONLY because real content cannot be produced as fast as it is consumed. That's it. Grind is tested and repeatable content that can keep people occupied until the next new batch is created. Nothing more. And there's nothing terribly wrong with that, although I wonder why the now ancient tries of AO's mission terminals never went further. (STO's random explore system missions are actually a good try at this too, but lack the customizability and randomization.)
There is no MMO without grind just because developers and companies have fallen onto it as a safe point. Content is king, queen, and executioner, and is what drives MMOs. The day a bunch of devs manage to get that AI to program stories-to-go, mmo's will forever shuck this stupid grindfest and maybe get on with being fun.
I'm not saying that all the grind is bad, I'm just saying that it is maybe a bit too slow and too hard, especially for fleets. I'm not wanting everything right now, just perhaps a bit easier.
Because right now, its either help your fleet or your own reputation. I only ask for enough dilithium to do both. Fleet and Omega marks are fine, but we need Romulan mark increase. (Perhaps Elite romulan instances, like with STFS?)
I have ten level 50 characters, but I could only get the mark XII sets on Two out of Ten. For the other eight, I'm too tired to do it.
I don't want to get rid of the reputation system, just wish for a bit reduced costs in terms of resources it costs.
Actually I want it to be improved. What about a Elite Antiproton space weapons for Omega Tier VI ? An elite Quantum torpedo for Omega Tier VII? A romulan armor plate console at romulan reputation Tier VI?
There are a lot of fun stuff you can add that way, that do not take that much programming and resources wise. (I modded games, I know its easier to add a special type of already existing item then make fully new content)
My advice of Elite Antiproton space weapons for a future omega update is not only easy resource and code wise, but the Omega force already has ground AP weapons to be unlocked, so its not unreasonable.
Lowering the grind, and perhaps giving Lifetime and subscribers free new character slots every ...lets say every Two months would really let them have new characters too, which would keep them in game too.
Making a new character and outfitting it to top gear was one of the fun things I had. But then the bad, nasty dilithium addition to the Crafting took all the craftable gear away, so I stopped crafting.
Now with the rep system, its just too slow. If it was not for role-play, I would have dissapeared for Skyrim months ago.
Grinding is okey in a game, but a little fine tuning it may not hurt in order to please your customers, Mr Stahl. Remember... Happy costumers are more likely to buy your products.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
Comments
Let's talk about that "magic" , shall we ?
To Cryptic , the "omg wow!" factor that they get from releasing a PR statement about a new ship coming "tomorrow" is worth more then putting a new Lockbox / Lobi ship on Tribble for a week for a shakedown .
The surprise/buzz is worth more to them then the actual functionality of the product .
I find this both unethical and disturbing .
And to this I will tell you what I said somewhere else :
I am VERY glad that these ppl don't deal with life or death situations .
Been there , done that , not fun .
Your version of the story is "well there are bugs in every program" while you pat Cryptic on the head .
My version is : do you expect to get to Mars (or anywhere else for that matter) with that kind of attitude ?
You applaud programming mediocrity , you applaud bad QA procedure , and apparently you even believe the line about "we've learned from this experience" .
And no , I don't have to go work for cryptic to fix their S%!t . Not my job , not my field .
But I too have been here for a long time and the things that get priority fixes in this game have me more and more worried .
In fact I am concerned that as the game grows , Cryptic is loosing the ability to "make it go" correctly .
More and more bugs ,less and less going back to fix things .
Season 7 is a prime example of that .
And instead of doing right by the game (and their costumers) , Cryptic rushes on ahead to deliver a code update (Season 8) that is supposed to be either 3-4 times the size of a normal Season , or the rest of Season 7 .
Either way -- I am REALLY CONCERNED about the amount of bugs a Season such as that will introduce with their current lack of QA/QC .
You tell me Mr. software professional : do you think the game will handle such an amount of incoming bugs ?
EDIT : you know , on second thought maybe you should not bother to answer that question , as it seems that our ideas about "quality" and "proper work" seem to be way too far apart -- thus making your answer irrelevant to me .
Now that I've been forced to obtain fleet marks via the same dull fleet actions I've encountered AFKers who have completely destroyed the action. This morning the same AFK'er appeared in two consecutive missions! :mad: Reported the AFK'er - which is what we should all be doing and hopefully (though quite doubtful) that person will be temporarily banned from FA.
I would have tried for a third mission but I was already sick of the game after that.
Thanks for the Valentine's Patch!
Fleet: 1st Order of Role-Players' Guild - gaming together since 2004
It does not matter if PWE/Cryptic believes we are a "majority" of customers that are speaking out in the forums to say that the lack of QA is wrong or that the QA process is broken...
What matters is that... IT IS THE TRUTH as posted by Dan himself!
He continues to APPROVE the bad code that does not go through any realistic form of QA!
PWE/Crytpic (Someone higher than Dan Please) Where are you!
PWE/Cryptic Why DON'T you listen to your Customers!
PWE/Crytpic Stop the PUBAR!, Bring back the FUN!
PUBAR = Patched Up Beyond All Recognition
Zeus
why work if someone will do it for u right? ........
makes me wish there was a friendly fire option in the teamed missions
maybe we need some space piracy, hunt them down and loot their latinum vaults
-General Chang
Don't think it would be even that hard, just scale rewards to damage dealt,damage healed through console/doff abilities,and damage taken during combat. If you don't take any or deal or heal any ,you get zero rewards.
Yes, that's a novel idea. I think in order for this to work effectively the grouping system would need to allow for open Team management in that the current queue would need to be changed to allow players to form their own groups for instances. So you could open up Team panel and start a group with the text 'Non-AFK Fleet Action in X-instance, LF Heals/DPS' and that's what would display to any other players looking in Team panel for a group, so they can see what you have in group already and what you are looking for. They then apply and you get a whisper with their level/class/name and the option to accept or deny. Group leader can also 'kick', so if you get a straggler or someone who doesn't understand what NON-AFK means you can boot them. We could make this 'Fleet Instance' scenario accessible 3 times daily, idk just as examples 10am, 6pm, 10pm or something. If you get booted you cannot re-enter until next time comes around, so best not muck about with peoples groups.
Also, I think we need a Fleet instance that could be both PvE and PvP at the same time, so say you could have 2 groups of 4 or 5 people and it could be Fed v. KDF teams or Fed v. Fed teams, etc. Both sides have the same objectives and obstacles to cross to get to the end Boss and first Team to defeat it wins the match, or if 'time' expires the Team with the most 'points' will win based on captures/kills both PvP and PvE. 20-30 minutes on the instance timer maybe.
Teams could choose to PvP and try to stall the other Team or just try to shoot through to the Boss fast and win quickly. There would initially be separation between the opposing Teams, but there would be areas allowing passage through to strike the other Team for PvP points(greater value) if successful. This could reward Fleet Marks, DIL, and Omega or Rom marks say depending on the NPC enemies that were in the instance with you(random) and be rewarded based on a sliding scale of 'points' you earned while in the instance on your Team. Whether win or lose, both Teams get something for their 'points' contribution and the winning Team gets a bonus reward % based on their total points and the time left on the clock once victory is achieved(or a certain number pf points are achieved for example if you clear the entire instance of NPC's the match ends).
This is loosely based on another game I play, not perfect but I tried to tweak it a bit to fit into STO....I'm sure it could use more fine tuning but I think this would be great fun for a lot of players.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The o3 - Killed you good
Yeah, it's something people bring up a lot about the 'kick' option being abused but from my (sadly extensive) experience with those types of games I can say IMO it works MUCH better than what we have now, and on a whole is not abused nearly as much as you would think.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The o3 - Killed you good
The problem with this idea is that it quickly runs into all the game balance issues we know and hate. By counting healing you help cruisers have a decent chance against the escorts, but sci ships still get shafted unless you count every subsystem disable, every Repel effect, every power and shield drain, and then how do you assign a numerical value to them? And if you want it to be based on actual useful performance, not just the numbers generated, then the game has to understand the tactics of the mission well enough to reward players for pushing probes away from the vortex, even if the team ultimately doesn't kill them, but penalize players for pushing probes into the vortex. It just very rapidly turns into a huge mess to do it marginally fairly. Vote to kick with time limitations at the beginning and end would work much better (say you can't kick people in the first minute or after a major 2/3rds done moment, like 2nd transformer down in ISE, 2nd gate down in KASE, or 2nd cube down in CSE). By setting it up that way a team can't kick someone for no reason at the very beginning, and they can't kick them after they've already worked their way through almost all of it (at least without setting the remainder of the team up for a major disadvantage for further hard battles).
yea i tryed to get a mate to play sto and he got fed up with it walk away from the game after one day. said it wasnt worth the harddrive space
Boycott Star Trek Online. It is the ONLY way they will listen.
yea i have thought about the kick system, but with the possible abuse that could go on, like kicking someone at the very end so they dont get rewards
but i have to say ur idea solves that quite nicely
making a small window of being able to kick in say the middle 1/3 of the mission would be great. waiting just long enough to confirm they arent doing anything, but not waiting so long that ppl who contribute get kicked from spite.
in this line of thinking...
they could assign each item that has to be done/killed in a mission a percentage of mission completion, then open kicking between set percents, say 20%-50% or something
for timed missions like azure, just set kicking between set times in the count down.
for example infected conduit, which is a fav of mine
there are 8 generators, 2 transformers, 2 cubes/spheres, gate, tac cube
each time one is killed a percent is complete
generators = 4% each x8 = 32%
sphere/cube = 4% each x2 = 8%
transformers = 10% each x2 = 20%
gate = 20%
tac cube = 20%
Total = 100% and rewards
since each kill sets some trigger anyway, it shouldnt be hard to add a percent to the triggers. like killing a gen triggers ship spawns at the gate etc.
_________________________________________________
i have thought about the rewards being based on performance in the mission also, but i dont see how u could make it fair to everyone given the large differences in professional roles. unless u count all the heals, dmg and other skills done, but that would make for a very intricate system needing to be developed. not to mention it would still put newer players at a disadvantage in missions, since their heals and dmg are both lower than veterans. and also hurt players that are really trying but keep dying, since the wait after death gets longer and longer in STFs
-General Chang
I understand some apprehension about having a kick system for grouping, but really how often do you really think people just get kicked right at the end for no reason? That hardly ever happens. The game(s) I play(ed) with a system for kicking people had instances where the whole point was going in with a group to defeat the many bosses and 'roll' on the loot...if there even was any at all. In STO they've pretty much taken the RNG for loot out altogether so without that to worry about there is really 0 reason someone would abuse that system in that way, it's pointless. The STO community that I've played with for the majority is pretty mature and good natured even when it comes to instances and loot. There's bad apples sure, but the general attitude is much better than a lot of MMO's I've played. If anything I feel a 'kick' system would be even less abused here than in any other game I'm familiar with. I don't see the reason for 'need/greed' either, just 'roll/pass' should be perfectly fine.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The o3 - Killed you good
Agreed.
I hope they change it back to how it was before. I really do.
I read Dan's explanation at the beginning of the thread, and "We want you to play it like how we originally wanted you to" just doesn't cut it. Sorry.
well the whole point to my post was i was saying i liked the idea of a kick system modified like u mentioned with a window for doing it
and i have played games where kicking at the last second happened to me personally. it was team play and my team won, and the person that created the room we were in kicked me at the last second, i guess cause i got more kills than him idk. and we were on the same team btw
so there are always jerks, and a lot of them need no reason other than they are just jerks. u dont have to say or do anything to them personally, they are just that way.
seen it in plenty of games ive played.
as far as STO being better than other games as far as conduct goes.... idk, if it really was i dont think afking in STFs and FAs would be a problem like it is.
i wouldnt bank on the natural good nature of ppl, especially online, since most ppl tend to act online in ways they would never do in real life. i have seen and received chat in games and forums that i doubt anyone would have said to anyone face to face, or even over the phone. its something about the feeling of anonymity the internet provides.
___________________________________________
EDIT:
on a side note also
does the officer report event ingame actually do anything with the foundry missions now that IOR was taken away?
if not it needs to be removed so that a useful event can take its place
-General Chang
Good question.
=/\= 106th Fleet =/\=
Website | Fleet Charter | Mission Statement | Forums | Join | F.A.Q.
Are you seriously trying to imply that because I'm pointing out previous cases of Cryptic buffoonery related to c-store ships that I'm somehow accepting or excusing it?
I know it's mind numbing but on 6 toon and a booster I can get 13 runs of colony invasion in during bonus event
74 x 13 = 962 marks - doing that 3 times per week which is reasonable = over 2800 marks
5 member fleet = 14,000 marks per week
for a 5 person fleet that would cover EVERY starbase tier 3 to 4 project(900 marks x 3) every single day.
Probably time to close this thread.
In the past that is how it's gone, but something has changed this time around. The movement has come to a collective consciousness that there's more to it than just the latest change. What we're actually upset about is a whole pattern of events, and the removal of fleet marks was just the latest example. Post #2311 on page 232 is a nice quick summary of much of what this is about.
This is the part where you're completely wrong and unfair with Stahl.
Yes the MMO genre is all about grind. Because repetable content is the only way to keep players doing the same thing over and over, and they day they realize they have nothing to do they don't come back, or they come back later but won't be as interested in the game as those who never stopped playing. Returning players are always the first to leave and not to spend money.
If you don't like "grind" well you should reconsider your own purposes: leading your own fleet (really? what's the point, can't you accept to be one among others in a large organization?), achieving your very own goals as soon as possible with a minimal investment in time.
I can tell you that even if people enjoy complaining about the MMOs they play (i've played only one with almost zero player complaint, this was a completely free without any profit game, and it received updtates once every two years) they also keep playing it. Everyone complains, but everyone keeps playing, as if it was a part of the game.
Many people would like to get instant rewards and gratification, but some frustration means the game is doing really well. And i'm not talking about quality of life bugs (they shouldn't exist) but about achieving specific goals. If people complain it's too slow/too hard to get it, it means the devs are successful, because you'll likely keep playing as long as this goal looks achievable.
Grind isn't just a "necessary evil" because devs can't produce content fast enough, it's the very reason why people keep playing such games. Players have long term goals, they want to do x, have y and win z, and as long as they consider it to be doable they'll keep playing. Of course as soon as it doesn't look achievable anymore people start to quit or create massive rant threads, like this one, but frustration and grind are exactly why MMOs are popular. Because you'll do whatever you have to do to get what you really want.
As a conclusion there is no MMO without grind. Because it can't exist, or it won't be as successful, or it relies on completely different mechanics (addictions, greed, sex, like second life) and it's not really a game.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
Ahem, Eve, would like to have a word with you. Its a MMO, where is the "grind"
+1 to this.
like i said many pages ago i dont read every comment or page of this thread and cryptic should write down every idea that is on this thread and see which one works the best with people in this mmo
You will not be called 'sir' for the purpose of this text log. You will also not be treated fairly due to your unfair treatment and dishonorable conduct. With that being said, your actions are typical of metagamers who want everything, and want it now. A grand majority of this ENTIRE thread is nothing but give this to us now! do this! do that! make it better! fix everything! test everything 64 times because if you do you won't have a bug/glitch!
You people seriously think that's how any large game works? Think again and ask the intellectual, easygoing, and gentlemanly friend of yours that tolerates your presence about EverQuest. That was a game with ABSOLUTELY ZERO COMMUNICATION between players and developers/coders. This game has problems. Every game has problems. There will NEVER be a game that does not come without bugs, glitches, exploits, clipping issues, and those blasted cavebats. Expecting perfection with more than one person is redundant.
The Foundry was being abused for fleet marks, that much is clear. I've seen zone chat many times where people stated they somehow exploiting out 2k marks in half an hour. If none of you think IOR being removed is legitimate and STILL pointing fingers, might wanna ask some people in your fleet about those extra 100k FC's every half-hour/hour.
Get over it, some changes were made, and FM's are now easier than ever. I approve of STO greatly, even with all it's funny little bugs that don't need to be fixed. Scavenge Dead Targ, indeed.
I want to bring this forward again so everyone has a chance to read it. Click the link to go back to the main post. Very articulate and well-written.
Cryptic... Devs: Heed my words. Heed OUR words: We don't want to play Grind Trek anymore. This is the FIRST weekend where I haven't spent the majority of my time in-game -- I just can't grind anymore.
In order to get an entire set of Elite gear for just one toon... I did the calculations the amount of time required is STAGGERING. Even if I spread the dilth grind across all of my toons we're looking at FOUR MONTHS of grinding to refine cap every day. That's not counting the staggering number of Fleet Marks I need to pour into a Starbase to generate the required Fleet Credits.
And this is just ONE toon. If I dedicate my time to running THIS grind how am I supposed to find time to grind my other two main toons? Borg gear? Out of the question! STFs are broken again... I'm getting one-shot'd with ALARMING frequency again. I can't even get past 9.9KM at times without getting blasted by a 250K crit.
Romulan Marks... you folks seem to have a very strange perception of just what the duties of a Vice Admiral entail -- I can count on one hand the number of times I saw a flag-officer chip-and-paint with the rest of us when I served... and those three occasions were staged photo-ops. Fact is, the New Rom Bunny Hunt and Click The Broken Machines grind is far more suited to ENTRY LEVEL players than end-game players!
There is an idea... reset the New Rom missions as an entry-level grind for new players. This allows new folks to get a taste of the good gear and it gets them to level up to endgame where they may be willing to spend money on premium content.
As it stands now I am on the verge of uninstalling the game... Putting all that effort into a grind for a set of gear is just heart-breaking.
This is not the Star Trek I started watching in 1975. This is not the Star Trek I wrote two novels for. No, this is NOT the Star Trek I wrote RPG supplements for either.
As a First Generation Trekker, I am appalled at what this has become. Simply appalled.
I'm tempted to sit down and write out a short-story based on a classic TNG episode but substitute grind mechanics for storytelling.
Picture the scene in Best Of Both Worlds where Riker and the crew are discussing potential weapons -- "The heavy gravaton beam looks promising but we simply do not have enough Fleet Marks to acquire all three pieces before the Borg reach Earth!"
Cryptic: Heed my words. The end is nearer than you think... and you are bringing it upon yourselves. Stop, reflect on what is being said here... and get back on track before you end up a footnote in Wikipedia under "Star Trek Games."
Try reading the legitimate grievances before making such comments. This has gone beyond simple fleet marks.
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
No, you're completely and utterly wrong. There was a *lot* of communication in EQ, since release, and there still is. I have no idea where you got that impression. You want lack of comms, go to the swtor forums...
And that is also utterly incorrect. Grind exists in MMO's ONLY because real content cannot be produced as fast as it is consumed. That's it. Grind is tested and repeatable content that can keep people occupied until the next new batch is created. Nothing more. And there's nothing terribly wrong with that, although I wonder why the now ancient tries of AO's mission terminals never went further. (STO's random explore system missions are actually a good try at this too, but lack the customizability and randomization.)
There is no MMO without grind just because developers and companies have fallen onto it as a safe point. Content is king, queen, and executioner, and is what drives MMOs. The day a bunch of devs manage to get that AI to program stories-to-go, mmo's will forever shuck this stupid grindfest and maybe get on with being fun.
The doors, Mister Scott!
Because right now, its either help your fleet or your own reputation. I only ask for enough dilithium to do both. Fleet and Omega marks are fine, but we need Romulan mark increase. (Perhaps Elite romulan instances, like with STFS?)
I have ten level 50 characters, but I could only get the mark XII sets on Two out of Ten. For the other eight, I'm too tired to do it.
I don't want to get rid of the reputation system, just wish for a bit reduced costs in terms of resources it costs.
Actually I want it to be improved. What about a Elite Antiproton space weapons for Omega Tier VI ? An elite Quantum torpedo for Omega Tier VII? A romulan armor plate console at romulan reputation Tier VI?
There are a lot of fun stuff you can add that way, that do not take that much programming and resources wise. (I modded games, I know its easier to add a special type of already existing item then make fully new content)
My advice of Elite Antiproton space weapons for a future omega update is not only easy resource and code wise, but the Omega force already has ground AP weapons to be unlocked, so its not unreasonable.
Lowering the grind, and perhaps giving Lifetime and subscribers free new character slots every ...lets say every Two months would really let them have new characters too, which would keep them in game too.
Making a new character and outfitting it to top gear was one of the fun things I had. But then the bad, nasty dilithium addition to the Crafting took all the craftable gear away, so I stopped crafting.
Now with the rep system, its just too slow. If it was not for role-play, I would have dissapeared for Skyrim months ago.
Grinding is okey in a game, but a little fine tuning it may not hurt in order to please your customers, Mr Stahl. Remember... Happy costumers are more likely to buy your products.
DELTA PRICE RISING