wait what? cryptic didn't foresee any exploit of foundry missions? were they still with ncsoft when the devs were surprised to see player made missions exploited for xo gain? i'm not a game designer but that was the FIRST thing i thought of when i heard that was coming. not specific magnitudes of exploit, but surely making 'ideal' missions that got you the most of what you wanted with the least fuss. and if taken to an extreme i guess that could be seen as an exploit. i'm just surprised they're surprised...unless some bug was discovered that allowed the designers to make things outside the planned parameters. then that'd be very bad.
if there's one thing cryptic does well its failure,and ruining their own game removing content such as crystalline entity and fleet mark rewards from officer reports with out putting in their replacements
I will give you a hint dan if the replacement content isn't ready you don't take out the golden goose understand?
and i am sure some of the other gaming news sites will get wind of how your treating customers
Hilarious. Well at least now I understand a little better why some people find it necessary to resort to labels like "CDF."
Apparently you have two choices, either you agree that Dan Stahl is a PWE sock-puppet, or you are
It's good that everyone has an open mind, though.
I feel bad for Dan, but at the same time it is his job to be the punching bag in this case. I am sure he is getting pressure from PWE to keep the gravy train going, but at the same time he is severely pissing off the people with the money. Sure, he may get a kid here and there that talks mom into shelling out $20 for some zen, but those of us in the older crowd that play this game are the ones that keep Cryptic's workforce in tact. I seriously doubt many younger people managed to talk their parents into forking over $300 for a LTS.
No, I am not who you think I am. I am someone different. I am instead a banana.
OK, I went from reading this thread to basically skimming through it over the past couple of days, as it feels like I'm reading the same posts over and over again. I have a feeling that if anyone from Cryptic is still bothering to read this, they might feel the same way.
We complained about the new changes. We went through the existing bugs. We came up with conspiracy theories and pointed angry fingers everywhere at the devs, Dan, the foundry authors, Cryptic, and anyone else that could be held accountable. We even threw a (just my opinion) somewhat immature tantrum at the whole video post.
To play devil's advocate, if I was trying to be apologetic and make a start at mending fences, all the while being distracted by MY sick child, and all I got back was "who cares... i want, i want, i want..." then I don't think I'd care much either, whether I was getting paid for it or not. You guys want to flame me for that opinion? Fine. It isn't much different from all the older posts anyway.
Was Dan's response what we wanted to hear? For most of us, no, not at all. Did we deserve the response we just got? Yes, probably. You don't catch flies with vinegar, people. I'm guessing the reason we couldn't get a detailed response on what they are planning for a fix is because the forum crowd is in witch hunt mode, and no matter what is said, many of us will jump on it like rabid angry animals.
Of the pages of posts here, there are great points of view, clear and concise. But most of them lack one thing... something truly constructive. I think that's what they're waiting for here. So, I present a recommendation to our members, because from all the great viewpoints I read between the angry lines, I know we are a much better, smarter, and more fun group of gamers if we really try to be.
If some people can believe that a small group of players can force sweeping changes to the game, then let's BE that group of players. Let's actually make some suggestions that could help the situation at hand. Let's leave all the "bring it back now" and "fix it now" posts and provide some worthwhile alternatives that might be listened to. We should be working with the team to make the game more fun and stop relying on workarounds and loopholes. That's not the way MMOs work. Deep down inside, you all know this.
So I'll throw the first idea out on the table. I think that a fleet of any size should advance based on dedication and teamwork. So, if Cryptic wants to make fleet advancement as such a huge undertaking, perhaps it needs it's own mechanic. We could have group based missions similar to STFs that were Fleet Members Only based, awarding a substantial amount of dilithium and FM. This would eliminate the AFK issue, and form a greater bond between fleet members.
What do you guys think? And does anyone else have any ideas they'd like to throw out there? I'd love to see anyone from the staff at least look at any of our posts and go "hey, that is actually a good idea."
Go back and read my essay. (should be page 232). Everything that needs to be said is there.
No one is in witch-hunt mode.
We've not broken any fences, nor have we wanted anything beyond a balanced game no one here is asking for diamonds and rubies.
To be honest I doubt that any of the points we've made or the constructive ideas will be even paid lip service, I don't expect them to be, this for many of us is more a process of catharsis and solidarity than real expectation of our ideas, thoughts and feelings being taken into consideration.
Considering the critical feedback and warnings (which later came to fruition) that Cryptic received about Season 7 that they promptly ignored from the Tribble Testers (The only real QA mechanism for this game) I just can't see the core issues here being resolved.
Go back and read my essay. (should be page 232). Everything that needs to be said is there.
No one is in witch-hunt mode, your just trying to portray us that way and it's totally obvious. I suggest you go away and come back when you've actually read posts in here rather than pretending that you have.
We've not broken any fences, nor have we wanted anything beyond a balanced game no one here is asking for diamonds and rubies. You seem to being out of your way to exaggerate the response of the playerbase and to vilify them needlessly.
Hey, I did read it. It thought it was pretty awesome actually. I'm just taking a look at the thread as a whole. My post was not directed specifically at you or at anyone else personally. ?But honestly, if you're just going to stab your finger and make the same assumptions that you're accusing me of making, then I'll just shut up and walk away. I was trying to help here.
Hey, I did read it. It thought it was pretty awesome actually. I'm just taking a look at the thread as a whole. My post was not directed specifically at you or at anyone else personally. ?But honestly, if you're just going to stab your finger and make the same assumptions that you're accusing me of making, then I'll just shut up and walk away. I was trying to help here.
You need to re-read my post I edited when I felt it was too harsh.
I have to say, its primarily the players fault for the crash in the Exchange and Dilithium economies. Players have been very greedy about things that really do not cost that much. For example, once the Fleet Starbases came out, the price of common white duty officers became astronomical.
This is not in Cryptic's defense for some of their bad decisions but maybe a point that some of us should look in the mirror. I got increadibly lucky and got a Jem'Hadar Heavy Escort and a Wells Temporal Ship, both of which I gave to people I know who would have benefited them more. I could have stuck it on the exchange for the absolutely game-breaking prices people charge for them.
The problem is, its not all Cryptic, some of the player-base is exceptionally greedy and refuse to really help each other. That is as much of the problem as anything Cryptic is doing.
I have to say, its primarily the players fault for the crash in the Exchange and Dilithium economies. Players have been very greedy about things that really do not cost that much. For example, once the Fleet Starbases came out, the price of common white duty officers became astronomical.
This is not in Cryptic's defense for some of their bad decisions but maybe a point that some of us should look in the mirror. I got increadibly lucky and got a Jem'Hadar Heavy Escort and a Wells Temporal Ship, both of which I gave to people I know who would have benefited them more. I could have stuck it on the exchange for the absolutely game-breaking prices people charge for them.
The problem is, its not all Cryptic, some of the player-base is exceptionally greedy and refuse to really help each other. That is as much of the problem as anything Cryptic is doing.
Exchange prices aren't a problem as far as I can see. Also, you have to remember that the price changes correspond exactly to changes made by Cryptic in the doff inputs for starbases and the loss of the doff up-grinder. With regards to Lockbox ships their prices simply fluctuate according to how many there are in the system, Temporal ships went from over 100 Million to about 50 million of a period of time. Players aren't inflating prices and changes in prices are due to how Cryptic changes things, not the players, a really good example were the Dominion Lockboxes themselves. At the start they dropped rarely and very few people had them so in the first few hours of release they were over 100k for just 1 box by the time the market got flooded they were doing to what 1k?
The shift in the Zen - Dilithium exchange rate is solely down to Cryptics changes with Season 7, there is simply less surplus Dilithium now it all goes into Dilithium inputs for Omega / Romulan shops + Fleets. Although Dan might argue there is now more Dilithium awarded across more the game the reality is any increase in rewarded pales into insignificance and is negative to the rate of inflation in Dilithium inputs. The result, uncertainty in the market which causes hording and caution in addition a lack of disposable Dilithium income. The ultimate result a shortage in Dilithium on the exchange and therefore the crash in Zen Value. All of this at it's base is a result of the changes the Developers made and not anything the players did. You could probably also add that mant of us play less and personally I've not hit my daily cap since Season 6 which has also taken Dilithium out of the chain.
I have to say, its primarily the players fault for the crash in the Exchange and Dilithium economies. Players have been very greedy about things that really do not cost that much. For example, once the Fleet Starbases came out, the price of common white duty officers became astronomical.
This is not in Cryptic's defense for some of their bad decisions but maybe a point that some of us should look in the mirror. I got increadibly lucky and got a Jem'Hadar Heavy Escort and a Wells Temporal Ship, both of which I gave to people I know who would have benefited them more. I could have stuck it on the exchange for the absolutely game-breaking prices people charge for them.
The problem is, its not all Cryptic, some of the player-base is exceptionally greedy and refuse to really help each other. That is as much of the problem as anything Cryptic is doing.
What you are talking about here is simple economics. Supply vs. demand which is not even a factor until Cryptic creates something of value in the game or changes something which creates a demand where previously one did not exist, or removes a demand for which a commodity is easily available. Starbases require White DoFF's where previously a demand did not exist - the price goes up as value is increased. We've had this debate before, and while I'll agree some players can be greedy they are not to blame for fluctuations in the market that come as a result of changes Cryptic made to the game content structure. This is the 'if a butterfly flaps it's wings...' argument.
What you are talking about here is simple economics. Supply vs. demand which is not even a factor until Cryptic creates something of value in the game or changes something which creates a demand where previously one did not exist, or removes a demand for which a commodity is easily available. Starbases require White DoFF's where previously a demand did not exist - the price goes up as value is increased. We've had this debate before, and while I'll agree some players can be greedy they are not to blame for fluctuations in the market that come as a result of changes Cryptic made to the game content structure. This is the 'if a butterfly flaps it's wings...' argument.
No, this is a "Humans are greedy... " argument. You cannot blame Cryptic for everything without the players taking some of the blame for whining about more powerful ships etc and then Cryptic having to do that via the lockbox system. Most people out there will try to make as much profit as is physically possible rather then undercutting the market.
Cryptic are not helping the problem but the players share some of the blame for it.
No, this is a "Humans are greedy... All Humans" argument. You cannot blame Cryptic for everything without the players taking some of the blame for whining about more powerful ships etc and then Cryptic having to do that via the lockbox system. Most people out there will try to make as much profit as is physically possible rather then undercutting the market.
That's not how the market works it fluctuates wildly in may areas precisely due to people undercutting others in order to facilitate a quick sale.
The players shouldn't be taking any blame for any of the issues we've discussed, which anyways doesn't include the exchange.
As I already stated above the system as designed by Cryptic promotes the behavior you see on the exchange, if they created a system that promoted generosity then people would be more generous.
"Humans are greedy" is a tautology, and honestly any 1st year student of Anthropology will have come into contact with gift economies and cultures, such as Potlatch Indian cultures of North America.
I'll start off by confessing that I was one of those people who took advantage of the pre-nerf Foundry rewards to ensure a steady stream of Fleet Mark earnings, although you have to understand, it was out of necessity more than anything else - it was simply the most efficient way of doing so in order to pay for my fleet's upgrades.
When the IOR FM reward nerf was announced in the Tribble patch notes, I had just finished outfitting my toon and his 14 BOffs in Elite Fleet Armor and PSGs, so I considered myself lucky to have gamed the system for as long as I could.
Whilst I do agree that FMs should (ideally) have been rewarded for fleet or team-based content, taking out the IOR FM rewards without immediately upping FM rewards from other sources has severely impacted on the progression of the fleet SB and Embassy systems, even for medium to large fleets.
My personal opinion is that, rather than pushing the Feb 14 Tribble patch as-is to Holodeck despite the existing outcry, Cryptic should have also doubled the FM rewards from the Fleet Action PvEs to be on par with the rewards from Borg STFs, making it attractive for most players.
When you (Cryptic) make players happy like this, they'll reach T5 faster, and would want one of those highly coveted Fleet Ships sooner, thus more willing to fork out for Fleet Ship Modules with Zen, which translates to more money for you to invest in dev time to develop more game modes, maps, services and vanity items like ship interiors.
I am however quite curious as to how much work would be required to simply double the FM rewards from the existing Fleet Action PvEs - is it a simple case of changing variables in code one afternoon and compiling it for the next patch, or does it involve days of boardroom wrestling?
Laws of thermodynamics as applied to life: 0 - You must play the game. 1 - You can't win. 2 - You can't break even. 3 - You can't quit.
Here's an easy fix for small fleets. Admiral Sugardaddy.
Assuming Cryptic can tell which small fleets are stalling out, Adm. Sugardaddy shows up, tours their pathetic Fleetbase, then magnanimously fills their stalled projects with whatever materials are lacking. Downside of this would be that fleet members would not get fleet credits for the materials donated. But that might be a small price to pay for a free jolt to progression.
Sure, members of large fleets will whine about others getting free stuff, but hey, we whine about alot of stuff already. What's one more thing?
I am however quite curious as to how much work would be required to simply double the FM rewards from the existing Fleet Action PvEs - is it a simple case of changing variables in code one afternoon and compiling it for the next patch, or does it involve days of boardroom wrestling?
Why would they do that?
Some fleets have hit, and others will soon be hitting T5 SBs.
Next big release isn't until May.
Time to slow us down, by forcing us to play content that we hate.
Content devoid of inspiration, innovation or tactics.
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
OK, I went from reading this thread to basically skimming through it over the past couple of days, as it feels like I'm reading the same posts over and over again. I have a feeling that if anyone from Cryptic is still bothering to read this, they might feel the same way.
We complained about the new changes. We went through the existing bugs. We came up with conspiracy theories and pointed angry fingers everywhere at the devs, Dan, the foundry authors, Cryptic, and anyone else that could be held accountable. We even threw a (just my opinion) somewhat immature tantrum at the whole video post.
To play devil's advocate, if I was trying to be apologetic and make a start at mending fences, all the while being distracted by MY sick child, and all I got back was "who cares... i want, i want, i want..." then I don't think I'd care much either, whether I was getting paid for it or not. You guys want to flame me for that opinion? Fine. It isn't much different from all the older posts anyway.
Was Dan's response what we wanted to hear? For most of us, no, not at all. Did we deserve the response we just got? Yes, probably. You don't catch flies with vinegar, people. I'm guessing the reason we couldn't get a detailed response on what they are planning for a fix is because the forum crowd is in witch hunt mode, and no matter what is said, many of us will jump on it like rabid angry animals.
Of the pages of posts here, there are great points of view, clear and concise. But most of them lack one thing... something truly constructive. I think that's what they're waiting for here. So, I present a recommendation to our members, because from all the great viewpoints I read between the angry lines, I know we are a much better, smarter, and more fun group of gamers if we really try to be.
If some people can believe that a small group of players can force sweeping changes to the game, then let's BE that group of players. Let's actually make some suggestions that could help the situation at hand. Let's leave all the "bring it back now" and "fix it now" posts and provide some worthwhile alternatives that might be listened to. We should be working with the team to make the game more fun and stop relying on workarounds and loopholes. That's not the way MMOs work. Deep down inside, you all know this.
So I'll throw the first idea out on the table. I think that a fleet of any size should advance based on dedication and teamwork. So, if Cryptic wants to make fleet advancement as such a huge undertaking, perhaps it needs it's own mechanic. We could have group based missions similar to STFs that were Fleet Members Only based, awarding a substantial amount of dilithium and FM. This would eliminate the AFK issue, and form a greater bond between fleet members.
What do you guys think? And does anyone else have any ideas they'd like to throw out there? I'd love to see anyone from the staff at least look at any of our posts and go "hey, that is actually a good idea."
Wrong dude. the Problem is we've been saying these things for awhile, me since S6. Most of it ignored and they continue to do there thing and make things worse. It doesn't matter if it's PWE or Dan making the final descision. For if PWE Dan HAS to tell them it won't work and they are being stupid. IF he can't convince them then he shouldn't be in his position. But also he should state it's PWE not him but he doesn't. A gaming company to survive HAS to sell a product and the success of the product relies on quality and customer service. BOTH ARE FAILING IN STO. DAN has brought this on him and especially with that reply. He in essence said TRIBBLE you. Not a smart thing to say to a customer. Look at the results that are happening. Subcribers are canceling subscribtions and going free for in their eyes it's no longer worth it. THAT ALONE should be a awake up call.
Wrong dude. the Problem is we've been saying these things for awhile, me since S6. Most of it ignored and they continue to do there thing and make things worse. It doesn't matter if it's PWE or Dan making the final descision. For if PWE Dan HAS to tell them it won't work and they are being stupid. IF he can't convince them then he shouldn't be in his position. But also he should state it's PWE not him but he doesn't. A gaming company to survive HAS to sell a product and the success of the product relies on quality and customer service. BOTH ARE FAILING IN STO. DAN has brought this on him and especially with that reply. He in essence said TRIBBLE you. Not a smart thing to say to a customer. Look at the results that are happening. Subcribers are canceling subscribtions and going free for in their eyes it's no longer worth it. THAT ALONE should be a awake up call.
The REAL State of the Game: Feb 2013. Top that Dan...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] ***Disenchanted***
Real Join Date: Monday, 17 May 2010
A critical review of the systems and game-play in Star Trek Online
Before I begin I'd like to address the recent posts and response from Dan, firstly this goes beyond Fleet Marks and poor communication from the developers the recent dissatisfaction is merely the expression of long standing disenchantment by a number of players.
I'm not going to give figures or estimates of just how many players feel this way, it is likely several factors more than those that are actually posting about it.
With regards to Dan's statements in the past few pages the failure to communicate honestly is shown once again. I understand it's difficult; businesses usually do everything they can to put up walls to stop customers from knowing the true workings of the organisation especially if the truth might be less than savoury. I also understand Cryptic as a subsidiary organisation may not have the kind freedom required to make changes that even internally they may want. The following is not an attack on the team or Dan personally but an honest assessment of the state of the game by many of us players.
So let me start by saying that this review is about a problem many players perceive with the way the game currently is. Many of us feel that it is no longer enjoyable to play. We may all be from a similar demographic or perhaps not but I know as a person who works hard and has family commitments that ultimately I may only be able to play every few days. On the weekends I have more free time and in Season 6 I really enjoyed spending a large chunk of my weekend playing, the game was fun and I made a lot of friends. I didn't really feel corralled into doing things I found boring.
On to the analysis:
Some argue the number of currencies in game is a problem, perhaps it is but for most of the reality is the problem is to do with volume of currency available divisible by the amount of time it costs to acquire them and enjoyment of the tasks that we have to do get those currencies.
Most of us are time limited, as you will know a large proportion of your premium demographic are in their middle-age usually work full-time and have a family. This makes them grind averse and consciousness of gameplay that feels unrewarding for the time spent.
I'm going to treat Dilithium separate from the other currencies as it's unique in its form in comparison to the others. For now let us look at the various marks in the reputation systems for personal and fleet.
The main issue with the Mark currencies at the moment is a triangle of desperation, at one point we have lack of supply, at the next boring repetitive and buggy content that must be grinded to achieve the Marks and at the final point; unbalanced and overly expensive inputs that magnify the problems of the first two parts to create a perfect triangle of despair for players.
With the personal reputation systems we can also add in the extra element of time gates and other expensive item inputs that require EC farming.
Whilst I understand that the development team is small and there has been little in the way of story content and what I would call deep level content (especially in comparison to other big franchise MMO's) I do not believe you have got the balance right. We understand that because you have a low content game you want to elongate the content you do have so players don't get bored too quickly equally if you make the game to much of a grind without a good reward or enjoyment factor then players will also leave from grind fatigue.
You have failed to get the balance right across all areas of the end-game content. As a result many of us find that the few areas of the game that we do enjoy have to be sacrificed if we wish to progress through the grind. The result of this is that when it comes to the weekend and I have free time instead of associating STO with fun and enjoyment I associate it with tedium so I no longer log on. This is the case for a great many of us and the underlying issue is a lack of supply, over demanding inputs and boring repetitive content. Indeed this is why exploits have arisen (though I would call them player developed fixes for unbalanced game mechanics) like the auto farming on the foundry.
Dilithium is also something that needs to be addressed because frankly for a currency based on time it is unacceptable that there is no automatic timed rewards, so if you play for an hour you get say 250 Dilithium, it also suffers from the issues that the other currencies suffer from.
So for us players who have lives and are often cash rich and time poor the game is horrifically unbalanced.
Alongside the lack of balance is the lack of enjoyable content in game. As it stands the game feels very beta still, with large areas of the game effectively not fit for production, an example being both the KDF faction and PVP. These are two areas in which players could find an opportunity to enjoy refreshing gameplay and stave off game fatigue but both are woefully undeveloped.
Game fatigue and apathy would also be greatly reduced if the missions that have to be grinded were more enjoyable, the old STF's both ground and Space are fine, but the Fleet Mark missions are seriously poor and boring to play, also with the 20 man space event the lag is usually unbearable and for 30 minutes of play time the rewards for that very boring event are pitiful. The Romulan Mark missions also suffer from element of boredom but the most shocking issue with them is also the pathetic amount of currency that is rewarded for completion of them.
Alongside this we have the compounding issue of the development team offering no real compelling content for a long time. New Romulus as it stands is really part of the game that is a sandbox for children the mini-quests like tagging and the like are not fit for endgame players and I perceive the way it is currently structured to be a huge waste of potential for an adventure zone. There is so much that could be done with New Romulus and more importantly other planetary destinations like Andoria for example. Once again a whole portion of the game which frankly feels and practically is alpha release content.
The lockboxes are clearly no more than a way for you as a team to acquire sales in a quick and easy way playing on human nature and addictive personalities. While in the short run this may be of great financial benefit if you continue in the current development style this game will become less and less appealing to more and more of your core demographic.
Finally, there a several UI issues that makes this game less enjoyable than it ought to be and they are easily fixable. Firstly and I cannot stress this enough we need to be able to save ship layouts in a reliable way so that when I play Temporal Ambassador for example my tray isn't ruined by flying the Enterprise C. That was the main reason why I only played that mission once that and the belt was terrible, especially the laziness of having a federation belt as a Klingon reward.
Secondly the fact that we do not have greater searchable metatags in the exchange and foundry makes both an annoyance to use especially when searching for traits or powers with boffs on the exchange.
Then there is the whole issue with fleets and your current system which kills small fleets and hurts the game in more ways than you can imagine. I was feeling a bright future in Season 6 and has set up a fleet and was in the process of building a website and advertising my fleet. I felt this was the next step up for my end of game content a whole new area to progress in. Season 7 killed my fledgling fleet and scattered its members to more advanced fleets or out of the game completely. Such was the lack of balance in the game that now T1 and T2 fleets find it practically impossible to attract players. This situation is clearly unacceptable. You must find a way to make starting a new fleet attractive and to give some positive encouragement and help to small fleets especially as many out-game friend groups tend to create small fleets that they don't want to enlarge. It is unacceptable that nearly all other MMO's cater to that guild style and you have not found the creative ability to incorporate this into your game.
Thus in closing you can see that practically every area of the end-game and many other parts of the game are unbalanced, half-finished and have fast lost the fun factor especially after the last round of unbalancing in the horrific Season 7 changes.
Alongside the glaring problems with the game we have the attitude and you the developers towards your customers. The way in which you treat your customers is frankly distasteful, often condescending arrogant and dismissive of people who are in reality your best tool for improving this game by using our feedback and time that we freely spend quality testing your product, especially in lieu of the fact that you have no Q&A department at all.
Simply put your communication is appalling and your ham-fisted attempts to foister unpopular and damaging changes to the game on a population of players who are keen to ramifications on their free time and in-game enjoyment have in the 8 months that I have been playing left me with a view of the company and game that ranks you well below your peers like Turbine (Who may I add employ in game GMs and have a good a customer support division unlike PWE whose current online ticket system has been broke since I started playing and STO that has no in game GMs)
Overall my experience in game and out of game has been steadily getting worse and I believe my opinion is echoed by others here. Despite all this there are parts of the game that I enjoy and I love Star Trek and those things have kept me coming back but honestly there are just to many negatives outweighing the positives at the moment that my time in game is incredibly diminished.
How do you fix this? Simple, solve bugs, add in-depth content, fix those half-finished parts of the game, design more enjoyable PVE grinds, increase rewards and freeze or lower input costs, fix the UI and above all take on the advice of your players and offer us the basic respect we deserve for having invested time and money into your game and your wallets.
Executive Summary (tl:dr)
Increase supply of currencies
Fix legacy bugs and sort out major bugs
Ensure boring content is updated or that we have grind less of it to get rewards
Freeze or decrease currency input costs
Fix several UI issues
Ensure lockboxes are ancillary to the aim of developing real content
Fix the major issues with small fleets and fleet scaling
Treat your players properly
That should bring back the fun.
I am quoting this entire post, because I don't want any of its message lost in among the many posts in this thread and also because I agree with everything in it 100%.
Look, there ALWAYS has to be an alternative perspective, or a discussion becomes an echo-chamber (and in that process, becomes futile.)
No, in order for there to be a discussion, there has to be a willingness to see more than one side of an issue. The poster I was referencing has said (more than once now), that if you disagree with him, then you're being irrational. It's fundamentally impossible to have a discussion with someone like that.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
I will own up I played the farmer missions, why it gave me a quick easy way to help me do the grind the games become, I would then play the mission events I want with the happy glowing feeling that I've help my friends/fleet.
The grind became 15 minutes of my time, the fun became the rest of the time I had in front of the PC, which is limited because of real life.
Now for the same rewards a couple of boring fleet missions if all goes well, the trio of missions around trellaus for loot and dill to pay for the rep grInd Ohh then I have to do a couple of stfs and rom rep patrol. Now I can play what I want to, oh look at the time I've got work the next day time for bed.........
As the highest contributer in my fleet I feel guilty not helping but since the 14th I've given jack to my fleet.
I DON'T MINED THE GRIND if I see progression, light at the end of the tunnel but at the moment there is none.
On a side not give us an option the cash in old 200k dill upgrades for 50% refund, I could get rid of those bloody stupid tribals the and spend the dill on offer projects.
Where ever you go, there you are.......
Join The Space Invaders,..... Federation and KDF fleets.
<snip> examined from a certain point of view-the accused SHOULD have an advocate, esp. when they do not, can not, or will not defend themselves, and it's easily more honorable to go against the flow and maybe make a call to reason-even in a situation which is percieved as very cut-and-dried.
A noble gesture to be certain. However, this is not a court of law, there is no accused or defendant and they certainly can voice their responses themselves. They have people employed specifically for that task.
This is however a forum thread in which I dare say hundreds of customers, who are passionate about the product & IP and want to see it succeed, are expressing their dissatisfaction not only with the tip of the iceberg (Valentine's Day Patch), but with all the underlying issues that have remained unresolved despite their continued reports and requests thereof.
There are Four Lights... say no to ARCFleet: 1st Order of Role-Players' Guild - gaming together since 2004
OK, I went from reading this thread to basically skimming through it over the past couple of days, as it feels like I'm reading the same posts over and over again. I have a feeling that if anyone from Cryptic is still bothering to read this, they might feel the same way.
...
Was Dan's response what we wanted to hear? For most of us, no, not at all. Did we deserve the response we just got? Yes, probably. You don't catch flies with vinegar, people. I'm guessing the reason we couldn't get a detailed response on what they are planning for a fix is because the forum crowd is in witch hunt mode, and no matter what is said, many of us will jump on it like rabid angry animals.
Of the pages of posts here, there are great points of view, clear and concise. But most of them lack one thing... something truly constructive. I think that's what they're waiting for here. So, I present a recommendation to our members, because from all the great viewpoints I read between the angry lines, I know we are a much better, smarter, and more fun group of gamers if we really try to be.
If some people can believe that a small group of players can force sweeping changes to the game, then let's BE that group of players. Let's actually make some suggestions that could help the situation at hand. Let's leave all the "bring it back now" and "fix it now" posts and provide some worthwhile alternatives that might be listened to. We should be working with the team to make the game more fun and stop relying on workarounds and loopholes. That's not the way MMOs work. Deep down inside, you all know this.
So I'll throw the first idea out on the table. I think that a fleet of any size should advance based on dedication and teamwork. So, if Cryptic wants to make fleet advancement as such a huge undertaking, perhaps it needs it's own mechanic. We could have group based missions similar to STFs that were Fleet Members Only based, awarding a substantial amount of dilithium and FM. This would eliminate the AFK issue, and form a greater bond between fleet members.
What do you guys think? And does anyone else have any ideas they'd like to throw out there? I'd love to see anyone from the staff at least look at any of our posts and go "hey, that is actually a good idea."
Yes, this thread has become largely repetitive, but that happened fairly quickly, mainly because the issues are well known and almost universally understood. There have been several proposals to fix or at least reduce the problems, but from all we can see they've fallen on deaf ears. So now it's less about actually contributing something new to the discussion than it is about simply sustaining the movement in hopes of forcing change. But that doesn't mean that we "deserved" a response that addressed almost none of our concerns.
Your proposal might well work. The only major downsides are that it will disadvantage those fleets with fewer active VA players, an issue many here have complained about, and that it does nothing about inputs other than Fleet Marks. One of my favorite proposals so far was the one to allow players to choose their rewards for any content they run, which would address both as well as helping to reduce boredom with repeating content.
I'll also propose my own solution to the grind problem, simple, but unlikely to be implemented. Reduce project requirements for Reputation and Fleet projects by 25% across the board (not touching timers), double the mark rewards from normal STFs and all Romulan and Fleet Mark queues, award 960 dilithium for all of those and 1440 for elite STFs, 960 also for all episode missions (either in addition to normal rewards, or as an alternative to the item or lock box), and 240-960 for Adventure Zone missions (depending on difficulty and time investment). That would make the grind a lot lighter and make more of the game's content rewarding enough to be played, and would involve minimal changes to the existing code. The problem with it is that it's too bold and too straightforward, so it's almost certainly not going to be considered seriously, and it also doesn't fully address the issue of steering players into certain content.
230 pages of pissed off players. How many more does it take before Cryptic admits they really screwed up? 500? 1000? Because I guarantee it's no going to stop.
How much more do you think we are going to take while you line your pockets with money from crapping out lockboxes and forcing everything to cost Dilithium while you continue to ignore game breaking bugs, all the while turning this game into nothing but a continual grind fest with no new content?
Time and time again,we have heard the season 8 would be big and now you are no longer even calling it season 8. I would say, "Prove me wrong", but I know damn well based on your track record that you can't.
I was a gold member right up until season 6. From that point on, I make this promise you you Cryptic, you will not see a single cent from me until you get your **** together.
Says it all for people like me. Classic PWE tactic of adding zen sink cash shop items while ignoring major bugs, such a red alerts that don't work .
PWE don't just flog a dead horse, they sell it's corpse to a UK meat dealer to put in supermarket burgers.
As I learned a long time ago at Uni, "common sense is not that common"
Comments
I will give you a hint dan if the replacement content isn't ready you don't take out the golden goose understand?
and i am sure some of the other gaming news sites will get wind of how your treating customers
I feel bad for Dan, but at the same time it is his job to be the punching bag in this case. I am sure he is getting pressure from PWE to keep the gravy train going, but at the same time he is severely pissing off the people with the money. Sure, he may get a kid here and there that talks mom into shelling out $20 for some zen, but those of us in the older crowd that play this game are the ones that keep Cryptic's workforce in tact. I seriously doubt many younger people managed to talk their parents into forking over $300 for a LTS.
We complained about the new changes. We went through the existing bugs. We came up with conspiracy theories and pointed angry fingers everywhere at the devs, Dan, the foundry authors, Cryptic, and anyone else that could be held accountable. We even threw a (just my opinion) somewhat immature tantrum at the whole video post.
To play devil's advocate, if I was trying to be apologetic and make a start at mending fences, all the while being distracted by MY sick child, and all I got back was "who cares... i want, i want, i want..." then I don't think I'd care much either, whether I was getting paid for it or not. You guys want to flame me for that opinion? Fine. It isn't much different from all the older posts anyway.
Was Dan's response what we wanted to hear? For most of us, no, not at all. Did we deserve the response we just got? Yes, probably. You don't catch flies with vinegar, people. I'm guessing the reason we couldn't get a detailed response on what they are planning for a fix is because the forum crowd is in witch hunt mode, and no matter what is said, many of us will jump on it like rabid angry animals.
Of the pages of posts here, there are great points of view, clear and concise. But most of them lack one thing... something truly constructive. I think that's what they're waiting for here. So, I present a recommendation to our members, because from all the great viewpoints I read between the angry lines, I know we are a much better, smarter, and more fun group of gamers if we really try to be.
If some people can believe that a small group of players can force sweeping changes to the game, then let's BE that group of players. Let's actually make some suggestions that could help the situation at hand. Let's leave all the "bring it back now" and "fix it now" posts and provide some worthwhile alternatives that might be listened to. We should be working with the team to make the game more fun and stop relying on workarounds and loopholes. That's not the way MMOs work. Deep down inside, you all know this.
So I'll throw the first idea out on the table. I think that a fleet of any size should advance based on dedication and teamwork. So, if Cryptic wants to make fleet advancement as such a huge undertaking, perhaps it needs it's own mechanic. We could have group based missions similar to STFs that were Fleet Members Only based, awarding a substantial amount of dilithium and FM. This would eliminate the AFK issue, and form a greater bond between fleet members.
What do you guys think? And does anyone else have any ideas they'd like to throw out there? I'd love to see anyone from the staff at least look at any of our posts and go "hey, that is actually a good idea."
by @Skydawn - member of Starbase UGC
Go back and read my essay. (should be page 232). Everything that needs to be said is there.
No one is in witch-hunt mode.
We've not broken any fences, nor have we wanted anything beyond a balanced game no one here is asking for diamonds and rubies.
To be honest I doubt that any of the points we've made or the constructive ideas will be even paid lip service, I don't expect them to be, this for many of us is more a process of catharsis and solidarity than real expectation of our ideas, thoughts and feelings being taken into consideration.
Considering the critical feedback and warnings (which later came to fruition) that Cryptic received about Season 7 that they promptly ignored from the Tribble Testers (The only real QA mechanism for this game) I just can't see the core issues here being resolved.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
Hey, I did read it. It thought it was pretty awesome actually. I'm just taking a look at the thread as a whole. My post was not directed specifically at you or at anyone else personally. ?But honestly, if you're just going to stab your finger and make the same assumptions that you're accusing me of making, then I'll just shut up and walk away. I was trying to help here.
by @Skydawn - member of Starbase UGC
You need to re-read my post I edited when I felt it was too harsh.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
This is not in Cryptic's defense for some of their bad decisions but maybe a point that some of us should look in the mirror. I got increadibly lucky and got a Jem'Hadar Heavy Escort and a Wells Temporal Ship, both of which I gave to people I know who would have benefited them more. I could have stuck it on the exchange for the absolutely game-breaking prices people charge for them.
The problem is, its not all Cryptic, some of the player-base is exceptionally greedy and refuse to really help each other. That is as much of the problem as anything Cryptic is doing.
Exchange prices aren't a problem as far as I can see. Also, you have to remember that the price changes correspond exactly to changes made by Cryptic in the doff inputs for starbases and the loss of the doff up-grinder. With regards to Lockbox ships their prices simply fluctuate according to how many there are in the system, Temporal ships went from over 100 Million to about 50 million of a period of time. Players aren't inflating prices and changes in prices are due to how Cryptic changes things, not the players, a really good example were the Dominion Lockboxes themselves. At the start they dropped rarely and very few people had them so in the first few hours of release they were over 100k for just 1 box by the time the market got flooded they were doing to what 1k?
The shift in the Zen - Dilithium exchange rate is solely down to Cryptics changes with Season 7, there is simply less surplus Dilithium now it all goes into Dilithium inputs for Omega / Romulan shops + Fleets. Although Dan might argue there is now more Dilithium awarded across more the game the reality is any increase in rewarded pales into insignificance and is negative to the rate of inflation in Dilithium inputs. The result, uncertainty in the market which causes hording and caution in addition a lack of disposable Dilithium income. The ultimate result a shortage in Dilithium on the exchange and therefore the crash in Zen Value. All of this at it's base is a result of the changes the Developers made and not anything the players did. You could probably also add that mant of us play less and personally I've not hit my daily cap since Season 6 which has also taken Dilithium out of the chain.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
What you are talking about here is simple economics. Supply vs. demand which is not even a factor until Cryptic creates something of value in the game or changes something which creates a demand where previously one did not exist, or removes a demand for which a commodity is easily available. Starbases require White DoFF's where previously a demand did not exist - the price goes up as value is increased. We've had this debate before, and while I'll agree some players can be greedy they are not to blame for fluctuations in the market that come as a result of changes Cryptic made to the game content structure. This is the 'if a butterfly flaps it's wings...' argument.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The o3 - Killed you good
No, this is a "Humans are greedy... " argument. You cannot blame Cryptic for everything without the players taking some of the blame for whining about more powerful ships etc and then Cryptic having to do that via the lockbox system. Most people out there will try to make as much profit as is physically possible rather then undercutting the market.
Cryptic are not helping the problem but the players share some of the blame for it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sSBgcMhRdzQ
That's not how the market works it fluctuates wildly in may areas precisely due to people undercutting others in order to facilitate a quick sale.
The players shouldn't be taking any blame for any of the issues we've discussed, which anyways doesn't include the exchange.
As I already stated above the system as designed by Cryptic promotes the behavior you see on the exchange, if they created a system that promoted generosity then people would be more generous.
"Humans are greedy" is a tautology, and honestly any 1st year student of Anthropology will have come into contact with gift economies and cultures, such as Potlatch Indian cultures of North America.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
I'll start off by confessing that I was one of those people who took advantage of the pre-nerf Foundry rewards to ensure a steady stream of Fleet Mark earnings, although you have to understand, it was out of necessity more than anything else - it was simply the most efficient way of doing so in order to pay for my fleet's upgrades.
When the IOR FM reward nerf was announced in the Tribble patch notes, I had just finished outfitting my toon and his 14 BOffs in Elite Fleet Armor and PSGs, so I considered myself lucky to have gamed the system for as long as I could.
Whilst I do agree that FMs should (ideally) have been rewarded for fleet or team-based content, taking out the IOR FM rewards without immediately upping FM rewards from other sources has severely impacted on the progression of the fleet SB and Embassy systems, even for medium to large fleets.
My personal opinion is that, rather than pushing the Feb 14 Tribble patch as-is to Holodeck despite the existing outcry, Cryptic should have also doubled the FM rewards from the Fleet Action PvEs to be on par with the rewards from Borg STFs, making it attractive for most players.
When you (Cryptic) make players happy like this, they'll reach T5 faster, and would want one of those highly coveted Fleet Ships sooner, thus more willing to fork out for Fleet Ship Modules with Zen, which translates to more money for you to invest in dev time to develop more game modes, maps, services and vanity items like ship interiors.
I am however quite curious as to how much work would be required to simply double the FM rewards from the existing Fleet Action PvEs - is it a simple case of changing variables in code one afternoon and compiling it for the next patch, or does it involve days of boardroom wrestling?
Assuming Cryptic can tell which small fleets are stalling out, Adm. Sugardaddy shows up, tours their pathetic Fleetbase, then magnanimously fills their stalled projects with whatever materials are lacking. Downside of this would be that fleet members would not get fleet credits for the materials donated. But that might be a small price to pay for a free jolt to progression.
Sure, members of large fleets will whine about others getting free stuff, but hey, we whine about alot of stuff already. What's one more thing?
Why would they do that?
Some fleets have hit, and others will soon be hitting T5 SBs.
Next big release isn't until May.
Time to slow us down, by forcing us to play content that we hate.
Content devoid of inspiration, innovation or tactics.
I'll take Dan's advice there.. and just ignore the game at that point.
Wrong dude. the Problem is we've been saying these things for awhile, me since S6. Most of it ignored and they continue to do there thing and make things worse. It doesn't matter if it's PWE or Dan making the final descision. For if PWE Dan HAS to tell them it won't work and they are being stupid. IF he can't convince them then he shouldn't be in his position. But also he should state it's PWE not him but he doesn't. A gaming company to survive HAS to sell a product and the success of the product relies on quality and customer service. BOTH ARE FAILING IN STO. DAN has brought this on him and especially with that reply. He in essence said TRIBBLE you. Not a smart thing to say to a customer. Look at the results that are happening. Subcribers are canceling subscribtions and going free for in their eyes it's no longer worth it. THAT ALONE should be a awake up call.
The REAL State of the Game: Feb 2013. Top that Dan...
***Disenchanted***
Real Join Date: Monday, 17 May 2010
I am quoting this entire post, because I don't want any of its message lost in among the many posts in this thread and also because I agree with everything in it 100%.
Yours Sincerely
An Unhappy Customer
No, in order for there to be a discussion, there has to be a willingness to see more than one side of an issue. The poster I was referencing has said (more than once now), that if you disagree with him, then you're being irrational. It's fundamentally impossible to have a discussion with someone like that.
The grind became 15 minutes of my time, the fun became the rest of the time I had in front of the PC, which is limited because of real life.
Now for the same rewards a couple of boring fleet missions if all goes well, the trio of missions around trellaus for loot and dill to pay for the rep grInd Ohh then I have to do a couple of stfs and rom rep patrol. Now I can play what I want to, oh look at the time I've got work the next day time for bed.........
As the highest contributer in my fleet I feel guilty not helping but since the 14th I've given jack to my fleet.
I DON'T MINED THE GRIND if I see progression, light at the end of the tunnel but at the moment there is none.
On a side not give us an option the cash in old 200k dill upgrades for 50% refund, I could get rid of those bloody stupid tribals the and spend the dill on offer projects.
Join The Space Invaders,..... Federation and KDF fleets.
A noble gesture to be certain. However, this is not a court of law, there is no accused or defendant and they certainly can voice their responses themselves. They have people employed specifically for that task.
This is however a forum thread in which I dare say hundreds of customers, who are passionate about the product & IP and want to see it succeed, are expressing their dissatisfaction not only with the tip of the iceberg (Valentine's Day Patch), but with all the underlying issues that have remained unresolved despite their continued reports and requests thereof.
Fleet: 1st Order of Role-Players' Guild - gaming together since 2004
Yes, this thread has become largely repetitive, but that happened fairly quickly, mainly because the issues are well known and almost universally understood. There have been several proposals to fix or at least reduce the problems, but from all we can see they've fallen on deaf ears. So now it's less about actually contributing something new to the discussion than it is about simply sustaining the movement in hopes of forcing change. But that doesn't mean that we "deserved" a response that addressed almost none of our concerns.
Your proposal might well work. The only major downsides are that it will disadvantage those fleets with fewer active VA players, an issue many here have complained about, and that it does nothing about inputs other than Fleet Marks. One of my favorite proposals so far was the one to allow players to choose their rewards for any content they run, which would address both as well as helping to reduce boredom with repeating content.
I'll also propose my own solution to the grind problem, simple, but unlikely to be implemented. Reduce project requirements for Reputation and Fleet projects by 25% across the board (not touching timers), double the mark rewards from normal STFs and all Romulan and Fleet Mark queues, award 960 dilithium for all of those and 1440 for elite STFs, 960 also for all episode missions (either in addition to normal rewards, or as an alternative to the item or lock box), and 240-960 for Adventure Zone missions (depending on difficulty and time investment). That would make the grind a lot lighter and make more of the game's content rewarding enough to be played, and would involve minimal changes to the existing code. The problem with it is that it's too bold and too straightforward, so it's almost certainly not going to be considered seriously, and it also doesn't fully address the issue of steering players into certain content.
Says it all for people like me. Classic PWE tactic of adding zen sink cash shop items while ignoring major bugs, such a red alerts that don't work .
PWE don't just flog a dead horse, they sell it's corpse to a UK meat dealer to put in supermarket burgers.
As I learned a long time ago at Uni, "common sense is not that common"