You can steal something from a shop, because the shopkeeper has left it open on the window-side, doesn't mean you should...
Apples and oranges comparison.
I don't have free access to the items in the shop without paying.
I have access to all of the content in STO. I even have access to the poorly designed and implemented (ie: exploitable) content in STO.
In any case, Dan has already said it was their mistake to implement FMs in such a blatantly exploitable manner and was further their mistake to squash their poor design decision in such a heavy handed manner.
While there is an ethical component in all of this, I don't think players using the poorly developed system they are offered for use is comparable to theft.
Also, if you look back thru the forums, several players mentioned when Cryptic attached FMs to the IOR that it was easily exploitable, yet Cryptic let it stand. At some point, the shop keeper is responsible for his poor decisions.
But that does raise a point, its not Cryptic's fault that the players are always looking for the next exploit. Even if one is there, doesn't mean the players should actually use it. You can steal something from a shop, because the shopkeeper has left it open on the window-side, doesn't mean you should...
Equating using the Foundry as outlined and approved by Cryptic as an alternate source of gameplay to stealing from a shopkeeper is simply lazy and intellectually irresponsible.
Jack Emmert: "Starfleet and Klingon. ... So two factions, full PvE content." Al Rivera hates Klingons Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert All cloaks should be canon.
Take er easy! Holy Roddenberry are people ever mad! Guys, at least they've said they are going to do something. That's a partial win in my book for small fleets and advocates for restoring the old IOR rewards. Better late than never.
Edit: That being said, I'm not going to hold my breath here. I don't expect a grand solution. It will most likely be a half baked band-aid that will somewhat appease the mobs until they can institute a more permanent solution.
After 3 YEARS of broken promises and you still believe them!
Not I...
Not until I actually see the code working with new content, and the KDF faction fully finished, on Tribble and then on the Holodeck!
3 YEARS of broken promises does NOT equal giving them my faith and trust anymore... OR MY MONEY!
PWE/Cryptic Where are you? Why are you not listening to your Customers?
I have forgotten nothing. I was never concerned with how long fleet holding progression takes. They can design their systems however they will. We have a choice as to whether or not to partake in those systems' gameplay.
If they want fleet holding progression to ignore small fleets, then so be it. The small fleet has three choices:
1 - Grow their fleet with enough active members to more efficiently manage the amount of fleet marks and dilithium needed to progress.
2 - Play it as it is and keep complaining about how hard it is to progress because the Fleet Mark payouts are not good enough.
3 - Don't play it at all.
I am not saying that this is how it should be. I believe in fair content progression for everyone. If they were to refer to fleets with 25 members or less a "squadron" and introduce squadron holdings that are smaller installations but can provide useful things for a more open-ended endgame, and these holdings were balanced for five to 25 players the way fleet holdings are balanced for 25 players and up, then the gap will be closed. Squadrons could still pursue the starbase with its current extreme difficulty of progression. But fleets would not be allowed to pursue Squadron Holdings as they would pose no challenge whatsoever.
I have also suggested a method that could be used to scale Starbase advancement requirements for fleet size, but I do not feel like reiterating it here and now. Suffice to say that it IS possible to do this without setting up an exploit.
Some people seem content to treat this as a stand-alone issue. All of this is cumulative. I do not refer merely to the Fleet Mark issue presently at hand but the entire gamut of issues this game still has. Were it not for the past three years (five if you date back to Jack Emmert's statement at GenCon) of continuous misinformation, lack of information, stealth changes, unfixed bugs, et al--I honestly don't see becoming the major debacle this has become. People are simply fed up with the development team and rightfully so.
Jack Emmert: "Starfleet and Klingon. ... So two factions, full PvE content." Al Rivera hates Klingons Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert All cloaks should be canon.
But that does raise a point, its not Cryptic's fault that the players are always looking for the next exploit. Even if one is there, doesn't mean the players should actually use it. You can steal something from a shop, because the shopkeeper has left it open on the window-side, doesn't mean you should...
But I think for a lot of players, myself included, the "exploits" were entirely a reaction to the excessive grind in the game. Back in S6 I would do a clickie, Academy daily, and B'Tran and immediately dump 5000 dilithium into fleet holdings, and then start really playing after perhaps 20 minutes (ok, I kind of liked the exploration part, but it's not the really good stuff). I wasn't keeping any of it to convert to Zen or anything, it was all going to the new grind they'd dumped on all my friends and me. With the AFK missions I would set them up and then do my homework, and again have some time to actually play the game afterwards. The simple fact is no one wants to grind the devs preferred content enough times to actually get anywhere, because we want to have time to enjoy the parts of the game that we prefer. Every "exploit" has been an attempt to facilitate that. You're right that people shouldn't be trying to cheat in the game (although how far towards that these really go is ambiguous), but at the same time we really shouldn't need to, and as things stand we pretty much do if we don't get to play 8 hours a day and want to actually have some fun.
But that does raise a point, its not Cryptic's fault that the players are always looking for the next exploit. Even if one is there, doesn't mean the players should actually use it. You can steal something from a shop, because the shopkeeper has left it open on the window-side, doesn't mean you should...
Players, are human. Players, also want to have fun. When you load up a game with a lot of grind, that takes a while to complete, it takes away from that fun. At a certain point, a person, a player will look for the fastest route to the goal. Cryptic created a mission, that not only was the single best way to get fleet marks in the game, they added Dilithium to it, then, blundered even more and put it on the shortest cooldown in the game. Cryptic gave them the means to the goal. They players, used it. This isn't rocket science, so to speak. when you hand out the rewards at the level they did, to not expect people to take advantage of it, is ludicrous.
Cryptic put in the grind, then expanded it to be worse.
Cryptic put in the IOR, then put it on the 30 minute timer.
Blaming the player here, for using the best mission in the game to get what he wants, is what they want you to do. They want you to forget they made it. Don't want people to exploit something in your game? Don't make it the prime target in a VERY exploitable section of your game. Players just want to have fun. Massive grind isn't fun.
Case in point, Battleship Royal Rumble was my mission of choice, since I want to do space combat, I would take it easy and try different things. I averaged 20-25 minutes. Some days, I'd play it twice. Am I exploiting, or using the mission the way they designed it?
The facts aren't hard to see, though they'd like you to miss them.
They made the foundry. They made Dil. They made the grind. They expanded the grind. They made the "fleet" missions have abysmal rewards. They don't add/update the missions. They added the single best mission in the game. They blame us, for using it.
most foundry mission ive played are/were story missions and some not alot kill accolade missions that i set on elite i never played the one click missions i play for fun not just to click and walk away.
thing is for me that there could of fixed one of 100s if not 1000s of bugs instead of messing with some thing players enjoy.
you should never take a reward away for something and not offer some thing in return. no one has said to me for months its hard to get dilith most people i know have 2-3 days worth to refine.
even new people to my kdf fleet, say after 2-3 days of hitting lvl 50 and start team up with us wow its so easy to get dilith why didnt i make a kdf toon sooner.
1 last thing a exploit that does realy p*** me off AFK farmers in all the mark missions that cryptic seem so willing ignore.
maybe there should add a doff mission to refine 1000 extra dilith for the extra cost of 250 ore could put a 48 hour CD on it.
But that does raise a point, its not Cryptic's fault that the players are always looking for the next exploit.
.
Yes it is Cryptic's fault. They are the ones that put in this horrible grind. I defend the rep system as a nice concept, but having to grind marks to unlock a tier so you can gain the ability to grind more marks to unlock an item in that tier? And at those prices? If you don't want players to exploit, don't put in a system tht encourages it. Don't set ingame prices that encourage it. Don't set C-store prices that encourage it.
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
But that does raise a point, its not Cryptic's fault that the players are always looking for the next exploit. Even if one is there, doesn't mean the players should actually use it. You can steal something from a shop, because the shopkeeper has left it open on the window-side, doesn't mean you should...
As others has stated this is a poor analogy. A better one would be comparing it to a 'magic' candy bowl. This bowl refills itself every 30 minutes. Its Halloween and you set this magic bowl out on your doorstep with a sign that merely reads 'Happy Halloween!'. Now since there is no rule saying that the kiddies can only take one piece what do you think will happen? Do you expect everyone will only take one piece? Or will you expect there be kids ranging the entire spectrum from single-piece-takers to those that will keep emptying the bowl into their bags every 30 minutes?
Now who is to blame for this set-up? Certainly not the kids since you created the situation and never made a restriction to how much a single kid can take. Only that they can take every 30 minutes. Yes I took twice a day and it helped so much with my tiny fleet. But 100 FM is a drop in the bucket that is the Star Base.
But the removal of FM from the IOR is merely a symptom of the underlying issue. People are tired of how the game is being mismanaged. Whether it is Dan or PWE that is to blame is also not the issue. I certainly don't want this to turn into a finger pointing contest. I want the game to be fun again and not grindy tedium.
Anyway...Power to the People! Keep fighting the Good Fight!
There is no way in heck that anyone could be that inept as to repeat that mistake again.
Ha-ha-ha-ha-haoha-hahah-oooo-hahahahaahhhahahahhhhahahahahahaahaa ... (et al) . :rolleyes:
Now seriously .
Offcourse they can do it again .
Never ever ever E-V-E-R under estimate the ppl who took your money to go F2P (while insisting that they were not going F2P) , and who went on to ask the lot of us to pay for a few more months to be their F2P QA team . :cool:
DStahl : quick , pull the leaver !
Cryptic employee : the leaver sir ?
DStahl : the "release a new shiny ship to distract the angry masses" leaver !!!
Ce : oh , you mean engage fireworks , fire anti-matter spread , KITT turn on the smoke screen ?
DStahl : ...yes...
Left to my own devices I chose to do these things:
Explore Strange New Worlds plus Chart the B'tran
*Would have preferred options other than just B'tran
*Never dreamed somebody would someday call this an exploit.
When Chart B'tran was removed I had to look for something else that would give me
similar dil.
Mirror Incursion
It's like a comfortable pair of old shoes to me and a good source of dil especially while leveling up alt characters.
*With the newer content, it's hard to catch this event hour as it's slotted less.
Kerrat
This was my PvP fix, even when I felt like my ship or my own abilities were inferior for the ques I could have some dogfights and earn dil while doing it.
*I rarely even check for the assignment now as it's random and can't be counted on.
IOR
Before all the dilithium sinks appeared, I played foundry for stories. Later,
I did Nagus dailies mostly. I didn't even know about clickies for the longest time but when I found out I jumped right in. It was all getting dumped in my micro fleet starbase anyhow, who could that hurt?
Fleet Actions
When you added dil here, I showed up. That lasted all of a couple days, right? I haven't been back to SB24 since.
Fleet Marks:
For the life of me, I don't understand the disparity in rewards among these missions. It became clear to me early on that even though I enjoyed Fleet Alert and Fleet Defense as much as Colony Invasion, I'd be doing Colony Invasion nonstop. Do I want 22 marks or 31, gee that's a tough one. I remember early on getting -12 marks for Fleet Defense, lol.
Obviously, getting 50 marks in the foundry was salvation. I still played Colony Invasion during the event window, but I didn't have to play EVERY SINGLE WINDOW. I've probably teamed with every player on the server by now, I am that guy that jumps in the village well when we get a perfect score.
So yeah, I went for the exploits in the end. Rumble became timid, timid became afk, and I didn't feel guilty. Even then, all that stuff went right into the starbase.
You prodded me here. If you made the stuff I enjoy more actually worth something in game currency, I would have had a clean record. Now I'm a criminal with forum warnings. I was the guy that reports the AFK'ers in group activities, now I'm an AFK'er that ruined the foundry for everybody?
When you get around to distributing fleet marks, would you be so kind as to up fleet alert to colony invasion levels, maybe higher because it's easier to fail.
Would you please throw some fleet marks to things that can be done solo like exploring the nebulae. Teaming is optional there too, give us that incentive beyond just doffing there.
Also consider that the literati among us, have very nearly to a man/woman chosen to forgo the grind and have headed to the foundry. Many of them wouldn't have seen a fleet mark without that IOR wrapper. What that says about current content I'll leave to you to decipher. Just keep in mind that those actually still playing the content you've released could use more thoughtful consideration. Spread the rewards to all areas of the game, and people like me will still show up for the event windows fairly often. Just don't force me so much.
Lastly, for the sheer astronomical costs of holdings, could you make it a real place, with functionality, and customization. If you know this is never gonna happen, could you tell me so I can just retire to the Foundry with the rest?
Posted a day ago in that "other" thread. But, since I am adding my voice to this, might at as well be in for a penny, in for a pound, and be consistent...
I found it interesting - and somewhat appalling - Dan felt the need to start a new thread to provide "answers" to questions, concerns and, let's face and admit it, blatant accusations (some of which have been ill-mannered) to this VERY large one. Seems a direct and intentional slap in the face, since what was received here was a - very curt and unprofessional, I might add - reply, but not a real response (i.e. answers, rationale, etc.) Many seeing the other thread for the first time do not even realize what has been talked about here in 2000+ posts for several days running, and it has added to the confusion and divisiveness, especially since most of the "discussion" there has been taken very much out of context.
The removal of Marks from IOR is such a small and even insignificant part of all that is being queried and challenged. If you do indeed listen to feedback, Dan and Company, reply to THIS thread and the mainstay of what is actually being discussed: your contradictory statements and actions, the loss of trust in the developers and in the game mechanics, the nerfing of things we grind for after-the-fact, and so forth - the HEART of the matter, not its symptoms and side-effects.
Exploits certainly happen, and I can see where some "bad apples have spoiled the barrel," as far as some of the play goes - I personally have never played any of the Foundry missions. But, what is being expressed is the discontent over smoke-and-mirror policy, double-talk, and heavy-handed dictation of how YOU feel WE should play OUR game. You develop and do the work, sure, but it is the PLAYER base who fund you and who you do it for; at least it was - you have clearly lost sight of that. And, in "100s of threads ago," you yourself declared that this game was not designed to be a grind-fest, and that is was developed "by players, FOR players."
Your disdainful approach to how things are handled shows even more the "we're going to do what we want, and you have to deal with it (or not)" attitude, and your continued secrecy in how and when you do things adds to the distrust. No one wants you to reveal the contents of the "presents" and surprises - we still like anticipation of new things. But, especially when there is a problem and issues you now admit to being handled poorly, we need you to lay out how you intend to deal with the problems, and give us a definite timeline - "in the months ahead" was also when the fully formed and functional Klingon faction was supposed to be in our hands...three years ago. And, a new "oooh, shiney!" is NOT the fix or what we are seeking.
I do appreciate your admission to being "heavy handed" in your decisions to take away something without compensation or balancing, and to even giving out a reply at all. But, since it is not a truly forth-coming DISCUSSION with the player base, I think the majority who have raised issues feel it is not only too little and too late, but just another sidestepping tactic.
But hey, your "metrics bear out that players are happy," right? So, I guess we'll wait for the next time you contradict your own actions and statements to see how long that lasts.
Until then, we'll continue goose-stepping behind you into the Final Frontier...
Fleet Commander
Caprica's Revenge (...actually active since November 2010, which may one day be important to archaeologists, but not to anyone else...)
_ STO is a archetyped based MMORPG meaning : GRIND for stuff, Start-load-repeat-rince kind of missions ; grind in order to be able to grind more.
It has been built on these very basis.
It has been amplified a lot when it went F2P ( P2W in my mind anyway)
It doesn't belong to the new and next mmorpg generation wich are, and will tending to bring less less grind versus more content and unique missions.
The way STO is designed will never end into one of these nex-gen mmorpg kind I've talked about.
example :
In my eyes how much of a waste is New Romulus : You guys designed a great playable zone, really shiny to the eyes, graphically elite. Now all we can do in there is to grindgrindgrind for roumlan marks HOW BORING is that.
Knowing this :
Now all we're asking is for the dev team to go less grind content, and some creativity content for fun game.
It doesn't belong to the new and next mmorpg generation wich are, and will tending to bring less less grind versus more content and unique missions.
Please let me know of any such MMO as I'd really be interested in experiencing it -- because it's certainly not Guild Wars II or The Secret World.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
I found it interesting - and somewhat appalling - Dan felt the need to start a new thread to provide "answers" to questions, concerns and, let's face and admit it, blatant accusations (some of which have been ill-mannered) to this VERY large one.
Actually, he didn't start a new thread - he posted in a thread that's intent was to appeal to the jaded players of STO - those that think that their opinion doesn't count for anything - to encourage them to speak up and be heard.
Dan's post immediately derailed that thread and whilst I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt, a part of me now wonders if that was the intent all along :rolleyes:
Please let me know of any such MMO as I'd really be interested in experiencing it -- because it's certainly not Guild Wars II or The Secret World.
Actually GW2 is a pre state of what mmorpg could have been in the future.
As it has failed in doing such, it was a nice try toward this direction.
The only thing and now the players are to blame : mmorpg players are not ready for a 180? turn into the mmorpg aspect.
In most of mmo player's mind is : grind for sutff, invest time and no matter if repeating 1000000000x a mission is not fun : grind reward the final stuff etc etc etc.
And this is for the best. no question asked.
Now, I'm not a mmo player, im a Star Trek fan; I have not played ( on a long term time said) other mmo than STO; And I've come to this one because it was said to be a good casual mmo kind.
I was wrong. I'm now bored . I get way way more fun playing world of goo. I'm on the edge of quitting STO.
Dan's post immediately derailed that thread and whilst I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt, a part of me now wonders if that was the intent all along :rolleyes:
You cynical old coot you
I wouldn't be surprised if you were right mind you. It's a use of an obvious tactic to emasculate the "hard core" of the angered masses (i.e. US). It's been used for many years, I can think of one example off the top of my head right now which is the Falklands war of 1982. When the Argentinian economy crashed the then government decided that instead of tackling the root issues, they would appeal to "patriotism" and conquer a long lusted after piece of land that they though would not be defended.
Although that example isn't a great comparison, it does have parallels with the current situation! You see, it's all about distraction. Distracting the majority of the "angered masses" with trinkets, shinies and stuff they might like to see (even though they didn't even know they wanted to see it in advance).
Actually GW2 is a pre state of what mmorpg could have been in the future.
As it has failed in doing such, it was a nice try toward this direction.
The only thing and now the players are to blame : mmorpg players are not ready for a 180? turn into the mmorpg aspect.
Actually, afterDantold me and my "smallfleet" to gtfo, I returned toGW2 and my stresslevels and happiness are much much higher. my server is pretty dang busy, so I'm notsure where youre seeing failure from. And my small guild there is progressing justfine up the guild trinket ladder. :cool:
Fleet Marks:
For the life of me, I don't understand the disparity in rewards among these missions. It became clear to me early on that even though I enjoyed Fleet Alert and Fleet Defense as much as Colony Invasion, I'd be doing Colony Invasion nonstop. Do I want 22 marks or 31, gee that's a tough one. I remember early on getting -12 marks for Fleet Defense, lol.
Obviously, getting 50 marks in the foundry was salvation. I still played Colony Invasion during the event window, but I didn't have to play EVERY SINGLE WINDOW. I've probably teamed with every player on the server by now, I am that guy that jumps in the village well when we get a perfect score.
Here's a suggestion (and it took all of 5 minutes to come up with, you're welcome Cryptic!):
Every Fleet Event regardless of size (5, 10, 20), or if they are called Fleet Actions, should award a MINIMUM of 25 Fleet Marks regardless of if you succeed with the mission or not. For every completed objective stage, you get an additional 5 Fleet Marks. For the final stage of the event, you get an additional 10 Fleet Marks. For an event such as fending off the invasion fleet at your starbase, you have a minimum 25 marks, 5 marks per wave (8 waves), and an additional 10 marks for the siege group. That comes out to... 75 Fleet Marks. That's a far sight better than the current 20-30 Marks total.
Now, add to this the possibility of an additional 10-20% rewards during "Event" hour, and you got a pretty nice source of income, without making it grindy or exploitive. I'd go so far as to say that every Fleet Event regardless of it's size, could potentially have a 15-30 min cooldown. I'd also suggest a reduction to the cooldown on STFs, to 30 min as well.
Lastly, the Mirror Incursion should also award Fleet Marks, and it should ALWAYS be available. While it's a very nice source of Dilithium, i'd be fine with a 15-30 min cooldown on it, if it's always available.
Sorry to hear of your daughter being ill, I wish her a speedy recovery.
That said, i do want to ask if you say you want to make the system work for all equally, challenging but rewarding at all levels, how can you then say , however slow progress for small fleets = by design.
If you want big fleets to take more than overnight to obtain top tier, then you must want it to take until the day the game is turned off for small fleets.
but this can't be can it?
You know when Ford Replaces a warrantied defective part it's not months after they remove the part that you get a new part and your car back, they do a stopgap measure or put you in a loaner or pay for your rental while you wait depending on the severity of the down time.
perhaps temporarily wrapping the current fleet content and fleet actions or atleast the daily with half of what you took away would workout better?
This may be the most commented thread, but it's pretty much the same people posting over and over :rolleyes: I wonder how many individuals have actually posted. Personally, I'm not upset because I wasn't exploiting the rewards so never gained a dependency on them.
I'm compiling exactly those statistics now for the benefit of the community and Cryptic.
The majority of posts in this huge thread are overwhelmingly against the change. And believe me, this does affect you, because if Cryptic are left unaccountable for this - something that's angered a large number of the forum community, what makes you think they'll care when they finally do something that does affect you?
Nobody here is saying the Fleet Marks should have stayed on Foundry missions, nobody here is disagreeing that these things were being 'exploited' - what they're saying is that you don't remove the single largest source of [a currency] from an MMO without having any immediate plans to restore the balance in some way.
Some of us played IOR maybe once or twice a day - and played story content too - not grinders - that got us 700 FMs a week - those are gone now. There's no adequate excuse for that.
One extra node for your metrics, should be the number of new posters who have made their first post because of this issue. That in itself shows us that some of the silent majority have decided to speak up on this, even the poster of the first quote is making his first post and his account is not a new one...
(not picking on you theincredible33, just illustrating a trend and possible metric node.)
They won't do what you ask, they will only do what they believe will keep players in STO long enough for the next ship, for the next "Season" for the next big money maker. That's what they're about now.
You guys keep screaming for more ways to make fleet marks. Sure, they may do it. But it'll come at a price. Most likely, upping the amount of marks required for the projects so that the percentage of marks gained still balances out their long term projections of how long it takes to get to Tier 5.
So getting 15 marks in Fleet Alerts now, and increasing them to 30 (Just estimating, using a 2x modifier here), and suddenly the projects cost twice as much in fleet marks because "After reviewing the amount of fleet marks that are potentially available to the player base, we feel that the projects require an increase in the amount of marks that are needed to complete" or some other corporate blindsiding speak. Allows them to appease the player base, shut them up, while at the same time, not jeopardizing their projections and spreadsheets.
If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. But I'm almost certainly right on this one.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
[Unrepentant] Lapo@overlapo: the problem with space STF
is that you can't properly teabag your defeated opponent
Unrepentant: Home of the Rainbow Warrior and the Rainbow Brigade.
But that does raise a point, its not Cryptic's fault that the players are always looking for the next exploit. Even if one is there, doesn't mean the players should actually use it. You can steal something from a shop, because the shopkeeper has left it open on the window-side, doesn't mean you should...
I sort-of agree but I don't. Yes, in an ideal world, people would just report exploits instead of using them to their advantage - in an ideal world, the developers would have enough foresight to ensure these exploits aren't possible.
But Cryptic knew that players were exploiting the IOR daily with 'clickies' so they removed it, tinkered with the system a bit and replaced it with a just-as-exploitable repeatable IOR mission.
That's not unfortunate, or unexpected - it's incompentent - and to paraphrase the saying, "a fool and his Fleet Marks are easily parted" :rolleyes:
Unlike Weyland
I totally disagree
These are not exploits. They are fixes when people learn that the Foundry "exploit" was a natural result not of player greed or players being malicious but down to the simple fact that Cryptic got the balance wrong. This is Cryptics fault. To use your terrible analogy about stealing from a shop, what if the person is forced to do so because they are starving?
Yes exactly the system that Cryptic put in place gives pathetic amounts of FM's and you have to grind some of the crappiest content in the game to get your piddling FM stipend. The result was both natural and justifiable, people found a way to fix the imbalance between inputs and outputs that Cryptic created and were right to do so. We fixed their broken system.
You see in a legit MMO the systems would be Q&A, stress and balanced tested by both community QA & an actual employed and paid Q&A division. Not so here so we get systems and economies foistered on us that make the game poor and unbalanced.
It's got nothing to do with the players, the entire problem is down to Cryptic.
They won't do what you ask, they will only do what they believe will keep players in STO long enough for the next ship, for the next "Season" for the next big money maker. That's what they're about now.
You guys keep screaming for more ways to make fleet marks. Sure, they may do it. But it'll come at a price. Most likely, upping the amount of marks required for the projects so that the percentage of marks gained still balances out their long term projections of how long it takes to get to Tier 5.
So getting 15 marks in Fleet Alerts now, and increasing them to 30 (Just estimating, using a 2x modifier here), and suddenly the projects cost twice as much in fleet marks because "After reviewing the amount of fleet marks that are potentially available to the player base, we feel that the projects require an increase in the amount of marks that are needed to complete" or some other corporate blindsiding speak. Allows them to appease the player base, shut them up, while at the same time, not jeopardizing their projections and spreadsheets.
There is one thing I would like to say to you regarding this. To you and all of those who share your "conviction" that this is hopeless. It is a very short, very simple saying that many of you people on here may be familiar with. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
If we sit and do nothing, we definitely get shafted. If we kick up a big enough stink, we might not get shafted. There is a chance that even if we do kick up the biggest stink we can, it might not be enough and nothing happens other than a "Yeah, sure whatever" response coming our way again.
But I certainly don't like being shafted especially when there is a chance that we might just be able to get something done about it, so I know which option I have picked!
We have the tools to at least make ourselves heard. We have large number of extremely intelligent and capable individuals who are all united in their displeasure with what has happened recently. I don't want to stand, but I feel I must. It is only fair on the wider community for us as a group to stand up and make damn well sure that we don't like how we have been treated.
What about you? Do you like how you have been treated? You are a member of this community after all.
If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. But I'm almost certainly right on this one.
I have forgotten nothing. I was never concerned with how long fleet holding progression takes. They can design their systems however they will. We have a choice as to whether or not to partake in those systems' gameplay.
If they want fleet holding progression to ignore small fleets, then so be it. The small fleet has three choices:
1 - Grow their fleet with enough active members to more efficiently manage the amount of fleet marks and dilithium needed to progress.
2 - Play it as it is and keep complaining about how hard it is to progress because the Fleet Mark payouts are not good enough.
3 - Don't play it at all.
I am not saying that this is how it should be. I believe in fair content progression for everyone. If they were to refer to fleets with 25 members or less a "squadron" and introduce squadron holdings that are smaller installations but can provide useful things for a more open-ended endgame, and these holdings were balanced for five to 25 players the way fleet holdings are balanced for 25 players and up, then the gap will be closed. Squadrons could still pursue the starbase with its current extreme difficulty of progression. But fleets would not be allowed to pursue Squadron Holdings as they would pose no challenge whatsoever.
I have also suggested a method that could be used to scale Starbase advancement requirements for fleet size, but I do not feel like reiterating it here and now. Suffice to say that it IS possible to do this without setting up an exploit.
For the last few days I've been working on a similar idea of grouping, from squadrons through battlegroups, fleets, flag fleets and sector fleets, with a workable progression and holdings system. I'm hacking it around and looking for exploit potential atm. I'll post it here, if I get it complete before this thread does the big one.
They won't do what you ask, they will only do what they believe will keep players in STO long enough for the next ship, for the next "Season" for the next big money maker. That's what they're about now.
You guys keep screaming for more ways to make fleet marks. Sure, they may do it. But it'll come at a price. Most likely, upping the amount of marks required for the projects so that the percentage of marks gained still balances out their long term projections of how long it takes to get to Tier 5.
So getting 15 marks in Fleet Alerts now, and increasing them to 30 (Just estimating, using a 2x modifier here), and suddenly the projects cost twice as much in fleet marks because "After reviewing the amount of fleet marks that are potentially available to the player base, we feel that the projects require an increase in the amount of marks that are needed to complete" or some other corporate blindsiding speak. Allows them to appease the player base, shut them up, while at the same time, not jeopardizing their projections and spreadsheets.
If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. But I'm almost certainly right on this one.
For the bajillionith time, it's not just about the fleet marks. The fleet marks are just the tip of the iceberg.
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
Comments
Apples and oranges comparison.
I don't have free access to the items in the shop without paying.
I have access to all of the content in STO. I even have access to the poorly designed and implemented (ie: exploitable) content in STO.
In any case, Dan has already said it was their mistake to implement FMs in such a blatantly exploitable manner and was further their mistake to squash their poor design decision in such a heavy handed manner.
While there is an ethical component in all of this, I don't think players using the poorly developed system they are offered for use is comparable to theft.
Also, if you look back thru the forums, several players mentioned when Cryptic attached FMs to the IOR that it was easily exploitable, yet Cryptic let it stand. At some point, the shop keeper is responsible for his poor decisions.
Equating using the Foundry as outlined and approved by Cryptic as an alternate source of gameplay to stealing from a shopkeeper is simply lazy and intellectually irresponsible.
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.
After 3 YEARS of broken promises and you still believe them!
Not I...
Not until I actually see the code working with new content, and the KDF faction fully finished, on Tribble and then on the Holodeck!
3 YEARS of broken promises does NOT equal giving them my faith and trust anymore... OR MY MONEY!
PWE/Cryptic Where are you? Why are you not listening to your Customers?
PWE/Cryptic Stop the FARM, Bring back the FUN!
Zeus
Some people seem content to treat this as a stand-alone issue. All of this is cumulative. I do not refer merely to the Fleet Mark issue presently at hand but the entire gamut of issues this game still has. Were it not for the past three years (five if you date back to Jack Emmert's statement at GenCon) of continuous misinformation, lack of information, stealth changes, unfixed bugs, et al--I honestly don't see becoming the major debacle this has become. People are simply fed up with the development team and rightfully so.
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.
But I think for a lot of players, myself included, the "exploits" were entirely a reaction to the excessive grind in the game. Back in S6 I would do a clickie, Academy daily, and B'Tran and immediately dump 5000 dilithium into fleet holdings, and then start really playing after perhaps 20 minutes (ok, I kind of liked the exploration part, but it's not the really good stuff). I wasn't keeping any of it to convert to Zen or anything, it was all going to the new grind they'd dumped on all my friends and me. With the AFK missions I would set them up and then do my homework, and again have some time to actually play the game afterwards. The simple fact is no one wants to grind the devs preferred content enough times to actually get anywhere, because we want to have time to enjoy the parts of the game that we prefer. Every "exploit" has been an attempt to facilitate that. You're right that people shouldn't be trying to cheat in the game (although how far towards that these really go is ambiguous), but at the same time we really shouldn't need to, and as things stand we pretty much do if we don't get to play 8 hours a day and want to actually have some fun.
Players, are human. Players, also want to have fun. When you load up a game with a lot of grind, that takes a while to complete, it takes away from that fun. At a certain point, a person, a player will look for the fastest route to the goal. Cryptic created a mission, that not only was the single best way to get fleet marks in the game, they added Dilithium to it, then, blundered even more and put it on the shortest cooldown in the game. Cryptic gave them the means to the goal. They players, used it. This isn't rocket science, so to speak. when you hand out the rewards at the level they did, to not expect people to take advantage of it, is ludicrous.
Cryptic put in the grind, then expanded it to be worse.
Cryptic put in the IOR, then put it on the 30 minute timer.
Blaming the player here, for using the best mission in the game to get what he wants, is what they want you to do. They want you to forget they made it. Don't want people to exploit something in your game? Don't make it the prime target in a VERY exploitable section of your game. Players just want to have fun. Massive grind isn't fun.
Case in point, Battleship Royal Rumble was my mission of choice, since I want to do space combat, I would take it easy and try different things. I averaged 20-25 minutes. Some days, I'd play it twice. Am I exploiting, or using the mission the way they designed it?
The facts aren't hard to see, though they'd like you to miss them.
They made the foundry. They made Dil. They made the grind. They expanded the grind. They made the "fleet" missions have abysmal rewards. They don't add/update the missions. They added the single best mission in the game. They blame us, for using it.
See something wrong with that?
"If you can't have fun, then what is the point?"
Okay Dan We, the customers/players, CAN'T have fun with grinding on your "farm"!
So What is the Point Dan?
PWE/Cryptic Where are you? Why are you not listening to your Customers?
PWE/Cryptic Stop the FARM, Bring back the FUN!
Zeus
thing is for me that there could of fixed one of 100s if not 1000s of bugs instead of messing with some thing players enjoy.
you should never take a reward away for something and not offer some thing in return. no one has said to me for months its hard to get dilith most people i know have 2-3 days worth to refine.
even new people to my kdf fleet, say after 2-3 days of hitting lvl 50 and start team up with us wow its so easy to get dilith why didnt i make a kdf toon sooner.
1 last thing a exploit that does realy p*** me off AFK farmers in all the mark missions that cryptic seem so willing ignore.
maybe there should add a doff mission to refine 1000 extra dilith for the extra cost of 250 ore could put a 48 hour CD on it.
Yes it is Cryptic's fault. They are the ones that put in this horrible grind. I defend the rep system as a nice concept, but having to grind marks to unlock a tier so you can gain the ability to grind more marks to unlock an item in that tier? And at those prices? If you don't want players to exploit, don't put in a system tht encourages it. Don't set ingame prices that encourage it. Don't set C-store prices that encourage it.
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
As others has stated this is a poor analogy. A better one would be comparing it to a 'magic' candy bowl. This bowl refills itself every 30 minutes. Its Halloween and you set this magic bowl out on your doorstep with a sign that merely reads 'Happy Halloween!'. Now since there is no rule saying that the kiddies can only take one piece what do you think will happen? Do you expect everyone will only take one piece? Or will you expect there be kids ranging the entire spectrum from single-piece-takers to those that will keep emptying the bowl into their bags every 30 minutes?
Now who is to blame for this set-up? Certainly not the kids since you created the situation and never made a restriction to how much a single kid can take. Only that they can take every 30 minutes. Yes I took twice a day and it helped so much with my tiny fleet. But 100 FM is a drop in the bucket that is the Star Base.
But the removal of FM from the IOR is merely a symptom of the underlying issue. People are tired of how the game is being mismanaged. Whether it is Dan or PWE that is to blame is also not the issue. I certainly don't want this to turn into a finger pointing contest. I want the game to be fun again and not grindy tedium.
Anyway...Power to the People! Keep fighting the Good Fight!
Ha-ha-ha-ha-haoha-hahah-oooo-hahahahaahhhahahahhhhahahahahahaahaa ... (et al) . :rolleyes:
Now seriously .
Offcourse they can do it again .
Never ever ever E-V-E-R under estimate the ppl who took your money to go F2P (while insisting that they were not going F2P) , and who went on to ask the lot of us to pay for a few more months to be their F2P QA team . :cool:
DStahl : quick , pull the leaver !
Cryptic employee : the leaver sir ?
DStahl : the "release a new shiny ship to distract the angry masses" leaver !!!
Ce : oh , you mean engage fireworks , fire anti-matter spread , KITT turn on the smoke screen ?
DStahl : ...yes...
Left to my own devices I chose to do these things:
Explore Strange New Worlds plus Chart the B'tran
*Would have preferred options other than just B'tran
*Never dreamed somebody would someday call this an exploit.
When Chart B'tran was removed I had to look for something else that would give me
similar dil.
Mirror Incursion
It's like a comfortable pair of old shoes to me and a good source of dil especially while leveling up alt characters.
*With the newer content, it's hard to catch this event hour as it's slotted less.
Kerrat
This was my PvP fix, even when I felt like my ship or my own abilities were inferior for the ques I could have some dogfights and earn dil while doing it.
*I rarely even check for the assignment now as it's random and can't be counted on.
IOR
Before all the dilithium sinks appeared, I played foundry for stories. Later,
I did Nagus dailies mostly. I didn't even know about clickies for the longest time but when I found out I jumped right in. It was all getting dumped in my micro fleet starbase anyhow, who could that hurt?
Fleet Actions
When you added dil here, I showed up. That lasted all of a couple days, right? I haven't been back to SB24 since.
Fleet Marks:
For the life of me, I don't understand the disparity in rewards among these missions. It became clear to me early on that even though I enjoyed Fleet Alert and Fleet Defense as much as Colony Invasion, I'd be doing Colony Invasion nonstop. Do I want 22 marks or 31, gee that's a tough one. I remember early on getting -12 marks for Fleet Defense, lol.
Obviously, getting 50 marks in the foundry was salvation. I still played Colony Invasion during the event window, but I didn't have to play EVERY SINGLE WINDOW. I've probably teamed with every player on the server by now, I am that guy that jumps in the village well when we get a perfect score.
So yeah, I went for the exploits in the end. Rumble became timid, timid became afk, and I didn't feel guilty. Even then, all that stuff went right into the starbase.
You prodded me here. If you made the stuff I enjoy more actually worth something in game currency, I would have had a clean record. Now I'm a criminal with forum warnings. I was the guy that reports the AFK'ers in group activities, now I'm an AFK'er that ruined the foundry for everybody?
When you get around to distributing fleet marks, would you be so kind as to up fleet alert to colony invasion levels, maybe higher because it's easier to fail.
Would you please throw some fleet marks to things that can be done solo like exploring the nebulae. Teaming is optional there too, give us that incentive beyond just doffing there.
Also consider that the literati among us, have very nearly to a man/woman chosen to forgo the grind and have headed to the foundry. Many of them wouldn't have seen a fleet mark without that IOR wrapper. What that says about current content I'll leave to you to decipher. Just keep in mind that those actually still playing the content you've released could use more thoughtful consideration. Spread the rewards to all areas of the game, and people like me will still show up for the event windows fairly often. Just don't force me so much.
Lastly, for the sheer astronomical costs of holdings, could you make it a real place, with functionality, and customization. If you know this is never gonna happen, could you tell me so I can just retire to the Foundry with the rest?
I found it interesting - and somewhat appalling - Dan felt the need to start a new thread to provide "answers" to questions, concerns and, let's face and admit it, blatant accusations (some of which have been ill-mannered) to this VERY large one. Seems a direct and intentional slap in the face, since what was received here was a - very curt and unprofessional, I might add - reply, but not a real response (i.e. answers, rationale, etc.) Many seeing the other thread for the first time do not even realize what has been talked about here in 2000+ posts for several days running, and it has added to the confusion and divisiveness, especially since most of the "discussion" there has been taken very much out of context.
The removal of Marks from IOR is such a small and even insignificant part of all that is being queried and challenged. If you do indeed listen to feedback, Dan and Company, reply to THIS thread and the mainstay of what is actually being discussed: your contradictory statements and actions, the loss of trust in the developers and in the game mechanics, the nerfing of things we grind for after-the-fact, and so forth - the HEART of the matter, not its symptoms and side-effects.
Exploits certainly happen, and I can see where some "bad apples have spoiled the barrel," as far as some of the play goes - I personally have never played any of the Foundry missions. But, what is being expressed is the discontent over smoke-and-mirror policy, double-talk, and heavy-handed dictation of how YOU feel WE should play OUR game. You develop and do the work, sure, but it is the PLAYER base who fund you and who you do it for; at least it was - you have clearly lost sight of that. And, in "100s of threads ago," you yourself declared that this game was not designed to be a grind-fest, and that is was developed "by players, FOR players."
Your disdainful approach to how things are handled shows even more the "we're going to do what we want, and you have to deal with it (or not)" attitude, and your continued secrecy in how and when you do things adds to the distrust. No one wants you to reveal the contents of the "presents" and surprises - we still like anticipation of new things. But, especially when there is a problem and issues you now admit to being handled poorly, we need you to lay out how you intend to deal with the problems, and give us a definite timeline - "in the months ahead" was also when the fully formed and functional Klingon faction was supposed to be in our hands...three years ago. And, a new "oooh, shiney!" is NOT the fix or what we are seeking.
I do appreciate your admission to being "heavy handed" in your decisions to take away something without compensation or balancing, and to even giving out a reply at all. But, since it is not a truly forth-coming DISCUSSION with the player base, I think the majority who have raised issues feel it is not only too little and too late, but just another sidestepping tactic.
But hey, your "metrics bear out that players are happy," right? So, I guess we'll wait for the next time you contradict your own actions and statements to see how long that lasts.
Until then, we'll continue goose-stepping behind you into the Final Frontier...
Fleet Commander
Caprica's Revenge
(...actually active since November 2010, which may one day be important to archaeologists, but not to anyone else...)
_ STO is a archetyped based MMORPG meaning : GRIND for stuff, Start-load-repeat-rince kind of missions ; grind in order to be able to grind more.
It has been built on these very basis.
It has been amplified a lot when it went F2P ( P2W in my mind anyway)
It doesn't belong to the new and next mmorpg generation wich are, and will tending to bring less less grind versus more content and unique missions.
The way STO is designed will never end into one of these nex-gen mmorpg kind I've talked about.
example :
In my eyes how much of a waste is New Romulus : You guys designed a great playable zone, really shiny to the eyes, graphically elite. Now all we can do in there is to grindgrindgrind for roumlan marks HOW BORING is that.
Knowing this :
Now all we're asking is for the dev team to go less grind content, and some creativity content for fun game.
Please let me know of any such MMO as I'd really be interested in experiencing it -- because it's certainly not Guild Wars II or The Secret World.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Actually, he didn't start a new thread - he posted in a thread that's intent was to appeal to the jaded players of STO - those that think that their opinion doesn't count for anything - to encourage them to speak up and be heard.
Dan's post immediately derailed that thread and whilst I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt, a part of me now wonders if that was the intent all along :rolleyes:
Actually GW2 is a pre state of what mmorpg could have been in the future.
As it has failed in doing such, it was a nice try toward this direction.
The only thing and now the players are to blame : mmorpg players are not ready for a 180? turn into the mmorpg aspect.
In most of mmo player's mind is : grind for sutff, invest time and no matter if repeating 1000000000x a mission is not fun : grind reward the final stuff etc etc etc.
And this is for the best. no question asked.
Now, I'm not a mmo player, im a Star Trek fan; I have not played ( on a long term time said) other mmo than STO; And I've come to this one because it was said to be a good casual mmo kind.
I was wrong. I'm now bored . I get way way more fun playing world of goo. I'm on the edge of quitting STO.
You cynical old coot you
I wouldn't be surprised if you were right mind you. It's a use of an obvious tactic to emasculate the "hard core" of the angered masses (i.e. US). It's been used for many years, I can think of one example off the top of my head right now which is the Falklands war of 1982. When the Argentinian economy crashed the then government decided that instead of tackling the root issues, they would appeal to "patriotism" and conquer a long lusted after piece of land that they though would not be defended.
Although that example isn't a great comparison, it does have parallels with the current situation! You see, it's all about distraction. Distracting the majority of the "angered masses" with trinkets, shinies and stuff they might like to see (even though they didn't even know they wanted to see it in advance).
But oh well Kaz, you learn from the best :P
Actually, afterDantold me and my "smallfleet" to gtfo, I returned toGW2 and my stresslevels and happiness are much much higher. my server is pretty dang busy, so I'm notsure where youre seeing failure from. And my small guild there is progressing justfine up the guild trinket ladder. :cool:
Here's a suggestion (and it took all of 5 minutes to come up with, you're welcome Cryptic!):
Every Fleet Event regardless of size (5, 10, 20), or if they are called Fleet Actions, should award a MINIMUM of 25 Fleet Marks regardless of if you succeed with the mission or not. For every completed objective stage, you get an additional 5 Fleet Marks. For the final stage of the event, you get an additional 10 Fleet Marks. For an event such as fending off the invasion fleet at your starbase, you have a minimum 25 marks, 5 marks per wave (8 waves), and an additional 10 marks for the siege group. That comes out to... 75 Fleet Marks. That's a far sight better than the current 20-30 Marks total.
Now, add to this the possibility of an additional 10-20% rewards during "Event" hour, and you got a pretty nice source of income, without making it grindy or exploitive. I'd go so far as to say that every Fleet Event regardless of it's size, could potentially have a 15-30 min cooldown. I'd also suggest a reduction to the cooldown on STFs, to 30 min as well.
Lastly, the Mirror Incursion should also award Fleet Marks, and it should ALWAYS be available. While it's a very nice source of Dilithium, i'd be fine with a 15-30 min cooldown on it, if it's always available.
Sorry to hear of your daughter being ill, I wish her a speedy recovery.
That said, i do want to ask if you say you want to make the system work for all equally, challenging but rewarding at all levels, how can you then say , however slow progress for small fleets = by design.
If you want big fleets to take more than overnight to obtain top tier, then you must want it to take until the day the game is turned off for small fleets.
but this can't be can it?
You know when Ford Replaces a warrantied defective part it's not months after they remove the part that you get a new part and your car back, they do a stopgap measure or put you in a loaner or pay for your rental while you wait depending on the severity of the down time.
perhaps temporarily wrapping the current fleet content and fleet actions or atleast the daily with half of what you took away would workout better?
galacticguards.enjin.com/
Formerly Jewkesman Member from Nov 2009!
One extra node for your metrics, should be the number of new posters who have made their first post because of this issue. That in itself shows us that some of the silent majority have decided to speak up on this, even the poster of the first quote is making his first post and his account is not a new one...
(not picking on you theincredible33, just illustrating a trend and possible metric node.)
=/\= 106th Fleet =/\=
Website | Fleet Charter | Mission Statement | Forums | Join | F.A.Q.
They won't do what you ask, they will only do what they believe will keep players in STO long enough for the next ship, for the next "Season" for the next big money maker. That's what they're about now.
You guys keep screaming for more ways to make fleet marks. Sure, they may do it. But it'll come at a price. Most likely, upping the amount of marks required for the projects so that the percentage of marks gained still balances out their long term projections of how long it takes to get to Tier 5.
So getting 15 marks in Fleet Alerts now, and increasing them to 30 (Just estimating, using a 2x modifier here), and suddenly the projects cost twice as much in fleet marks because "After reviewing the amount of fleet marks that are potentially available to the player base, we feel that the projects require an increase in the amount of marks that are needed to complete" or some other corporate blindsiding speak. Allows them to appease the player base, shut them up, while at the same time, not jeopardizing their projections and spreadsheets.
If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. But I'm almost certainly right on this one.
[Unrepentant] Lapo@overlapo: the problem with space STF
is that you can't properly teabag your defeated opponent
Unrepentant: Home of the Rainbow Warrior and the Rainbow Brigade.
Unlike Weyland
I totally disagree
These are not exploits. They are fixes when people learn that the Foundry "exploit" was a natural result not of player greed or players being malicious but down to the simple fact that Cryptic got the balance wrong. This is Cryptics fault. To use your terrible analogy about stealing from a shop, what if the person is forced to do so because they are starving?
Yes exactly the system that Cryptic put in place gives pathetic amounts of FM's and you have to grind some of the crappiest content in the game to get your piddling FM stipend. The result was both natural and justifiable, people found a way to fix the imbalance between inputs and outputs that Cryptic created and were right to do so. We fixed their broken system.
You see in a legit MMO the systems would be Q&A, stress and balanced tested by both community QA & an actual employed and paid Q&A division. Not so here so we get systems and economies foistered on us that make the game poor and unbalanced.
It's got nothing to do with the players, the entire problem is down to Cryptic.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
There is one thing I would like to say to you regarding this. To you and all of those who share your "conviction" that this is hopeless. It is a very short, very simple saying that many of you people on here may be familiar with.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
If we sit and do nothing, we definitely get shafted. If we kick up a big enough stink, we might not get shafted. There is a chance that even if we do kick up the biggest stink we can, it might not be enough and nothing happens other than a "Yeah, sure whatever" response coming our way again.
But I certainly don't like being shafted especially when there is a chance that we might just be able to get something done about it, so I know which option I have picked!
We have the tools to at least make ourselves heard. We have large number of extremely intelligent and capable individuals who are all united in their displeasure with what has happened recently. I don't want to stand, but I feel I must. It is only fair on the wider community for us as a group to stand up and make damn well sure that we don't like how we have been treated.
What about you? Do you like how you have been treated? You are a member of this community after all.
Forgive the ad-hominem, but how arrogant!
For the last few days I've been working on a similar idea of grouping, from squadrons through battlegroups, fleets, flag fleets and sector fleets, with a workable progression and holdings system. I'm hacking it around and looking for exploit potential atm. I'll post it here, if I get it complete before this thread does the big one.
Maybe we should knock-heads?
=/\= 106th Fleet =/\=
Website | Fleet Charter | Mission Statement | Forums | Join | F.A.Q.
For the bajillionith time, it's not just about the fleet marks. The fleet marks are just the tip of the iceberg.
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
Someone needs to refer him to post 2311
#2311#2700#2316#2500
#2311 is crying out to be made into a meme.