<snip> examined from a certain point of view-the accused SHOULD have an advocate, esp. when they do not, can not, or will not defend themselves, and it's easily more honorable to go against the flow and maybe make a call to reason-even in a situation which is percieved as very cut-and-dried.
A noble gesture to be certain. However, this is not a court of law, there is no accused or defendant and they certainly can voice their responses themselves. They have people employed specifically for that task.
This is however a forum thread in which I dare say hundreds of customers, who are passionate about the product & IP and want to see it succeed, are expressing their dissatisfaction not only with the tip of the iceberg (Valentine's Day Patch), but with all the underlying issues that have remained unresolved despite their continued reports and requests thereof.
There are Four Lights... say no to ARCFleet: 1st Order of Role-Players' Guild - gaming together since 2004
OK, I went from reading this thread to basically skimming through it over the past couple of days, as it feels like I'm reading the same posts over and over again. I have a feeling that if anyone from Cryptic is still bothering to read this, they might feel the same way.
...
Was Dan's response what we wanted to hear? For most of us, no, not at all. Did we deserve the response we just got? Yes, probably. You don't catch flies with vinegar, people. I'm guessing the reason we couldn't get a detailed response on what they are planning for a fix is because the forum crowd is in witch hunt mode, and no matter what is said, many of us will jump on it like rabid angry animals.
Of the pages of posts here, there are great points of view, clear and concise. But most of them lack one thing... something truly constructive. I think that's what they're waiting for here. So, I present a recommendation to our members, because from all the great viewpoints I read between the angry lines, I know we are a much better, smarter, and more fun group of gamers if we really try to be.
If some people can believe that a small group of players can force sweeping changes to the game, then let's BE that group of players. Let's actually make some suggestions that could help the situation at hand. Let's leave all the "bring it back now" and "fix it now" posts and provide some worthwhile alternatives that might be listened to. We should be working with the team to make the game more fun and stop relying on workarounds and loopholes. That's not the way MMOs work. Deep down inside, you all know this.
So I'll throw the first idea out on the table. I think that a fleet of any size should advance based on dedication and teamwork. So, if Cryptic wants to make fleet advancement as such a huge undertaking, perhaps it needs it's own mechanic. We could have group based missions similar to STFs that were Fleet Members Only based, awarding a substantial amount of dilithium and FM. This would eliminate the AFK issue, and form a greater bond between fleet members.
What do you guys think? And does anyone else have any ideas they'd like to throw out there? I'd love to see anyone from the staff at least look at any of our posts and go "hey, that is actually a good idea."
Yes, this thread has become largely repetitive, but that happened fairly quickly, mainly because the issues are well known and almost universally understood. There have been several proposals to fix or at least reduce the problems, but from all we can see they've fallen on deaf ears. So now it's less about actually contributing something new to the discussion than it is about simply sustaining the movement in hopes of forcing change. But that doesn't mean that we "deserved" a response that addressed almost none of our concerns.
Your proposal might well work. The only major downsides are that it will disadvantage those fleets with fewer active VA players, an issue many here have complained about, and that it does nothing about inputs other than Fleet Marks. One of my favorite proposals so far was the one to allow players to choose their rewards for any content they run, which would address both as well as helping to reduce boredom with repeating content.
I'll also propose my own solution to the grind problem, simple, but unlikely to be implemented. Reduce project requirements for Reputation and Fleet projects by 25% across the board (not touching timers), double the mark rewards from normal STFs and all Romulan and Fleet Mark queues, award 960 dilithium for all of those and 1440 for elite STFs, 960 also for all episode missions (either in addition to normal rewards, or as an alternative to the item or lock box), and 240-960 for Adventure Zone missions (depending on difficulty and time investment). That would make the grind a lot lighter and make more of the game's content rewarding enough to be played, and would involve minimal changes to the existing code. The problem with it is that it's too bold and too straightforward, so it's almost certainly not going to be considered seriously, and it also doesn't fully address the issue of steering players into certain content.
230 pages of pissed off players. How many more does it take before Cryptic admits they really screwed up? 500? 1000? Because I guarantee it's no going to stop.
How much more do you think we are going to take while you line your pockets with money from crapping out lockboxes and forcing everything to cost Dilithium while you continue to ignore game breaking bugs, all the while turning this game into nothing but a continual grind fest with no new content?
Time and time again,we have heard the season 8 would be big and now you are no longer even calling it season 8. I would say, "Prove me wrong", but I know damn well based on your track record that you can't.
I was a gold member right up until season 6. From that point on, I make this promise you you Cryptic, you will not see a single cent from me until you get your **** together.
Says it all for people like me. Classic PWE tactic of adding zen sink cash shop items while ignoring major bugs, such a red alerts that don't work .
PWE don't just flog a dead horse, they sell it's corpse to a UK meat dealer to put in supermarket burgers.
As I learned a long time ago at Uni, "common sense is not that common"
If the devs made ready meals it wouldn't be the fact that they shipped with horse instead of beef, they wouldnt have anything inside,.....that would follow in the next several months!
Where ever you go, there you are.......
Join The Space Invaders,..... Federation and KDF fleets.
Says it all for people like me. Classic PWE tactic of adding zen sink cash shop items while ignoring major bugs, such a red alerts that don't work .
PWE don't just flog a dead horse, they sell it's corpse to a UK meat dealer to put in supermarket burgers.
As I learned a long time ago at Uni, "common sense is not that common"
Tesco Burger anyone??
Yes it is unfortunately true the game has become a decayed relic of it's former self. Gone are the days before PAKLED WORLD when Dan and his team used to turn out content (actual missions, remember those guys? C'mon, we can't all have forgotten them) at a regular pace, with proper testing (Up to a month) on tribble before releasing a season and actually getting bugs fixed within a decent time from the point of reporting.
Now seasons are rushed out with bare minimum testing and bugged to hell as a result, content is almost none, we are flooded with a lockbox lottery that is as unbalanced as a Chinese voting system, bug reports are being ignored (Even those emailed directly to Dan when he gave out his address to do so), the players are furious, the board of directors obviously just sit around watching STO videos in meetings, but the State of the Game last time round was a rave review of complete success.
I guess I come from the Mirror Universe where success is measured by something different. Success was the old way Devs, PRE PAKLED WORLD when s... actually got done, and where we werent constantly attempted to be distracted by shineys to try and hide the fact that there has been bugger all released in 2 years....
I miss the old team...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] ***Disenchanted***
Real Join Date: Monday, 17 May 2010
Shame when you have people that will defend cryptic at all costs, even going so far as to accuse the player base trying to lay out ideas and also the underlining issues, just to be told that we are lying and trying to be unreasonable.
I have read every post in this entire topic from day one and I can tell if nothing else the majority are frustrated and trying to do all they can to communicate the issues and even suggestion to try to help both FM's and STO as a whole, but sadly the devs are not listening it would seems.
Even more so it seem the CDF is out to try to somehow shut us up, and while we are determined in trying to voice our stance and concerns and suggestions, its a shame we have people out there that are content to continue the unending grind and defend cryptic no matter the costs.
I for one will not, if they will not listen then I like many will not be giving them any more of my time or money, as a game that is more grind then fun is just well not worth the effort anymore to even play STO while I wait to seebut I am not holding my breath.
Keep up the good fight to try to reach the devs and never let easily distracted fanboys deter you all from trying to make STO a better game for the community as a whole for us all.
I'm going through this entire thread compiling some 'metrics' for Dan.
In the meantime, if you feel Cryptic/PWE are not listening to their customers and effecting appropriate change in their policies, please consider joining the ranks of the 'Disenchanted' by visiting the post in my sig below and either changing your title to 'Disenchanted' if you're KDF or renaming your ship if you're Federation.
I'm not willing to let this slide and with your support we can make a difference.
Thank you.
*Edit* This is currently the 3rd most commented post in the news section since beta and also the 7th most view post - it's generated more customer ire than any issue in the 3 year history of STO.
I'm going through this entire thread compiling some 'metrics' for Dan.
In the meantime, if you feel Cryptic/PWE are not listening to their customers and effecting appropriate change in their policies, please consider joining the ranks of the 'Disenchanted' by visiting the post in my sig below and either changing your title to 'Disenchanted' if you're KDF or renaming your ship if you're Federation.
I'm not willing to let this slide and with your support we can make a difference.
Thank you.
I wonder if a Harlem Shake video full of disenchanted folk would have any effect?
Shame when you have people that will defend cryptic at all costs, even going so far as to accuse the player base trying to lay out ideas and also the underlining issues, just to be told that we are lying and trying to be unreasonable.
I have read every post in this entire topic from day one and I can tell if nothing else the majority are frustrated and trying to do all they can to communicate the issues and even suggestion to try to help both FM's and STO as a whole, but sadly the devs are not listening it would seems.
Even more so it seem the CDF is out to try to somehow shut us up, and while we are determined in trying to voice our stance and concerns and suggestions, its a shame we have people out there that are content to continue the unending grind and defend cryptic no matter the costs.
I for one will not, if they will not listen then I like many will not be giving them any more of my time or money, as a game that is more grind then fun is just well not worth the effort anymore to even play STO while I wait to seebut I am not holding my breath.
Keep up the good fight to try to reach the devs and never let easily distracted fanboys deter you all from trying to make STO a better game for the community as a whole for us all.
Take up the battle cry and continue to voice your objections to the PWE/Cryptic "vision" of how they want us to play!
PWE/Cryptic Where are you? Why don't you listen to your CUSTOMERS!
Straw that broke the camel's back* (but we are in the star trek univese and we can fix it! make it better.. faster.. stronger..**)
*"One of the earliest published usages of this phrase was in Charles Dickens's Dombey and Son (1848), where he says "As the last straw breaks the laden camel's back", meaning that there is a limit to everyone's endurance, or everyone has his breaking point"
**"six billion dollar man, woman and dog..."
As a dedicated KDF player I'm currently asking myself if this game as turned into a resource managment game, I would like the opinions of other KDF players on this, if thats whats the game has become do I really need a 6 gb client on my PC? Do I really need a multicore cpu and a powerfull GPU to run it? and a developer that tell me to stop playing if I don't enjoy the game anymore?
On this last note I'm still here because my subscription expires in April so the reason its because I've paid for it and I will not give up my hopes for you to change things and make this game FUN (or give us a lighter client) untill then.
Why do I not require any feds to comment on that? not because for the feds the problem its smaller but because this its a game breaking feature for the KDF (smaller fleets in smaller faction).
Do I think that what a tier 5 starbase have to offer its a must have in the game?
It would have been a must if there was a way to PVP proprerly (we know the current state of pvp) and being rewarded for it... but NO starbases at the moment are just a vanity thing like costumes and hair styles, you could easily run all the endgame content with blue mk XI gears, you just have to actually look at the screen while engaged in an stf, on the other hand with mk XII purple fleet stuff you can easily go and make youself a snack while engaged in the same stf ... ask yourself do you really want the game to be fully automated? (if yes there are games that can do that without the need for a 6gb client -OGAME comes to mind-).
I would like to ask to the dedicates FED players the following questions:
Are you really aware of how much less has been invested into the development of the kdf faction? and most of the stuff we have its just a copy and paste operation regardless of anything "star trek", Klingon and tribbles (even tribbles knows that this its not right and they bites us at every use)? or for that matter klingons and bunnies???
How do you (fed players) envision this game without the klingons as enemies?
can you immagine Luke Skywalker not having to fight the empire?
the whole star wars saga would have looked like those teenagers movies with romantic vampires refusing to drink blood or zombies actually losing their appetite for human flesh! George Romeros Night of the dead (the 70's version) would have looked like a documenary set in a shopping mall with everyone going about their bussiness!!!
Wouldn't you Feds like to be able to choose if spend your day in the star trek universe just minding your own bussiness OR dream to be a STARFLEET cadet (or whatever rank) and fight to protect the federation against REAL challenging enemies (and being properly rewarded for it) instead of fighting NPC's with a very limited AI that can only kill you with invisible weapons or zerg mobs?
And now to the DEVS:
Are you labeling all of whats happening as just complains that inevitably comes when you are into any kind of bussiness?
May I point out that the way bussiness its made onto the internet its unique? Due to my limited capabilities in your language I'm going to make an example of what I mean (btw quoting someone else).
Lets say you receive the 200 BHP car you paid for in full just to see the car dealer cooming around your house a week later and take away half the power of your engine without an explanation or a refound for that matter...
would you be happy? No.. would that car dealer still be in bussiness for a long time? sure NO, if ever you won't buy from him again and sure you would be suggesting to do the same to your friend, family and collegue. Wouldn't you be in your right to do so?
On the other hand this its somehow normal in the internet bussiness, big companies wants big earnings and fast and doesn't matter if the products dies after a while as far as it keeps raising ammounts of cash flowing in and little expenses.. its the anciente culture of use it and trow it away!
You may argue that this its the only way you can keep the game going and that by giving (reasonably) the player base what they want you may not be able to keep the cash flowing and the sharks feed!
Does your research dept says that there are no other bussiness models possibles?
Wrong again by working togheter with your playerbase you will improve the happiness of your customers and last I check: a happy customer happily forks out the cash (and this has nothing to do with ferenghis)
Again you may argue you can't plan to pay your bills on players promises but again let me tell you're badly wrong again!
Have I got something to prove my point other than my personal opinion?
YES I very much have the prove of what I'm stating here! hard evidence! FACTS and the kind of facts that traslates straight into money!
Have a look at STAR CITIZEN!!! (wherever it'll turn out to be a scam or not i'm not here to debate that).
They have raised over 8 millions dollars on pure FAITH the game its still a year away from any apha release!!!
Why? it looks like (there are a lot of proves that it'll be that good but i prefer to wait to see the end product) the game its beeing developed by the author AND the playerbase.
A playerbase that hasn't even played the game yet its so happy to be listened that its already dishing out huges ammounts of currency on the promise that the game its going to be evolving with the players to give them the product they want (but still making it challenging)!!!
YOU ALREADY HAVE A WORKING PRODUCT on the market all you have to do its stop staring at the quaterly report and start listening to Your playerbase FOLLOW THE GREAT RIVER OF OPPORTUNITY and you are going to cash on that!
Please change your mind on us beeing only able to complain and label us as resources! Opportunity not complains!
You should also show this new amazing word of opportunities after the harlem shakes video at your next meeting!
On a personal note I would like to underline the fact that altrought the people that write on the forum may not be the majority of the players you should take into account all the people that can't write in english, french or german.. also all the people that just can't be ..bother and yet they still spend money on the game.
Please do consider that english its not my language and its taken some effort to write down whats in my mind while trying to avoid things like steril complains or make this into a flame post, my hope its that you see this the way I mean it to be: a constructive comunication! (and I admit: lil sarcasm).
I wonder if a Harlem Shake video full of disenchanted folk would have any effect?
I'm done with appealing to Cryptic - obviously that's beating a dead horse - it's time we took this to the gaming websites - first though we need a story - and with your help we can get their attention.
I'm done with appealing to Cryptic - obviously that's beating a dead horse - it's time we took this to the gaming websites - first though we need a story - and with your help we can get their attention.
I'm not entirely sure about the legality (in terms of TOS an EULA) of organizing into a group and actively campaigning and criticizing the game and the company outside of these forums.
However as private individuals with no shared covenant there is nothing they can do about us voicing our individual un-organised dissatisfaction with the game across the internet in whatever way see fit beyond libel and defamation.
Talk to me sometime I have a good framework for the story.
I'm not entirely sure about the legality (in terms of TOS an EULA) of organizing into a group and actively campaigning and criticizing the game and the company outside of these forums.
If I want to criticize Cryptic's business practices outside these forums that's my business - the worst they can do is ban my account and is that really what they want? After over 2000 mostly angry posts to start silencing and banning players?
I can imagine how well *that* would go down.
This single issue has caused more player outrage than any other event in the 3-year history of STO - if we left it pass, things will only get worse.
If I want to criticize Cryptic's business practices outside these forums that's my business - the worst they can do is ban my account and is that really what they want? After over 2000 mostly angry posts to start silencing and banning players?
I can imagine how well *that* would go down.
This single issue has caused more player outrage than any other event in the 3-year history of STO - if we left it pass, things will only get worse.
I agree totally, I just don't know if we can organize into a group, there is nothing they can do if you as an individual want to criticize.
However if we keep things informal or they at least have the appearance of informality I don't see what they can do.
If we start making T-shirts, open a website and accept donations there could be implications, but I'm really speaking from a position of ignorance here.
I agree totally, I just don't know if we can organize into a group, there is nothing they can do if you as an individual want to criticize.
However if we keep things informal or they at least have the appearance of informality I don't see what they can do.
If we start making T-shirts, open a website and accept donations there could be implications, but I'm really speaking from a position of ignorance here.
If people will just show their support and solidarity for change in-game that's enough.
If people will just show their support and solidarity for change in-game that's enough.
Agreed informal organisation and solidarity is key, the disenchanted movement was a great idea btw, if I was active in the game atm I'd change my Ship Names.
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
Shineys are nice, but we don't get anywhere to play with them, really. (I AM looking forward to killing Kumari variants in Ker'rat and maybe the Ques, though. In that specific case, the lax QC and total lack of testing may have a more positive balance effect than their 'carefully crafted' ship-releases Fedside...)
Grind is NOT CONTENT.
Neither is New Romulus. It's a map that COULD HAVE HAD content-at one time, before they ported the basic design of a second-rate medieval MMO's starting area in, slapped a level-50 requirement on it, and stocked it with helpless peasants, trash-mobs, cute animals and pretty rocks to collect.
GRIND is NOT Content.
The "Reputation" grind on top of the "Starbase" grind does not lead to relaxation and pleasure, it leads to stress and irritation. Effectively it's "Kill Rats", but instead of (as in a "Normal" MMO) doing the kill-rats mission at the beginning of your toon's career to level, you're expected to "kill rats" at teh END of their career.
Grind, grind, grindy-grind-grind, for gear to grind MORE.
for what? what reward? the chance to spend money to get MORE grindy-grind-gear?
Unfortunately, as quality has dropped and bugs go year after year 'unkillable', we're not given anything more than empty promises, beads, whiskey, and polio blankets.
Oh, and Feds?
BUY the new Andorian SHIP, buy it, buy it buy it. I need an easy way to make my "Kill 10 Feds" mission, "Shipkiller" mission, and stay interested through 3 resets of Ker'rat.
'kay? buy it, it doesn't matter if your toon's not set up for it, buy it and use it anyway.
The removal of IOR took away the whiskey and polio blanket. Now we're left with just empty promises and beads to face this quite irksome STO existence.
Jack Emmert: "Starfleet and Klingon. ... So two factions, full PvE content." Al Rivera hates Klingons Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert All cloaks should be canon.
As I hinted at last week, you will see changes over the next several month, but the first change will be this Thursday.
We are not detailing that change until the patch notes hit.
Translation:
We ****ed up big time and didn't expect such a huge backlash from it. Currently we're lost for words because we know that nothing we can say will fix how much of a TRIBBLE up we just made. Now we're going to pull double-shifts until Thursday in the vain hope of finding some way we can try to remedy the problem.
Join date is wrong, I've actually been around since STO Beta.
True alters don't have a "main". Account wide unlocks for all unique event rewards!!
This is currently the 3rd most commented post in the news section since beta and also the 7th most view post - it's generated more customer ire than any issue in the 3 year history of STO.
This may be the most commented thread, but it's pretty much the same people posting over and over :rolleyes: I wonder how many individuals have actually posted. Personally, I'm not upset because I wasn't exploiting the rewards so never gained a dependency on them.
I agree totally, I just don't know if we can organize into a group, there is nothing they can do if you as an individual want to criticize.
However if we keep things informal or they at least have the appearance of informality I don't see what they can do.
If we start making T-shirts, open a website and accept donations there could be implications, but I'm really speaking from a position of ignorance here.
They may gripe if shirts and a website were hawked on their forums but from a third party site with no connection back to their forums they have no legal grounds. But they have been known to harass third party sites in the past.
Jack Emmert: "Starfleet and Klingon. ... So two factions, full PvE content." Al Rivera hates Klingons Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert All cloaks should be canon.
Before this fiasco, I was content to just do things at my own pace, not worrying about how long it would take me to advance in fleet holdings. So it never really bothered me. The removial of the IOR doesn't really bother me either.
What bothers me is the way that it was done, with no warning and no care to how the community would respond, and the subsequent brush-off this 2000+ post thread's participants who have voiced concerns that go far beyond that of Fleet Marks.
If this change is what they feel will help the game in the long run, when taking into account things that are coming between now and the major update in May, then fine. But it would be nice if they would COMMUNICATE things to us. But they have not even so much as politely expressed their position with a "We understand that you are upset, but we are in the process of stabelizing everything and once we have rolled out additions to the system to prepare for the May update, you will see that it is worth it."
Instead the responses have been very cut-and-dry with no indication that they care one whit about how upset we are. No efforts on their part have been made to ease our frustration. THAT gets me more upset than the changes to the game, which I can adapt to if I am patient. It's not like I am required to spend any money to play the game, and because I don't treat the fleet holding progression options like something I have to do as quickly as possible, adapting comes easier.
This whole thing could have been handled better. and as long as it continues to be handled poorly on PWE's part, with Dan just being their mouthpiece and puppet (because he wants to keep his job and would likely lose it if he defied the will of his corporate masters), then this thread, will continue to grow and the frustration will only grow with it.
In China, the average person may be willing to accept that things are just how they are and nothing they can do will change it so they just roll with whatever happens silently and continue to methodically go about their lives. But in the western world, where democracy is, for the most part, not just illusory, the average person chooses not to accept and just roll with things they don't like. PWE is trying their damnedest to force the eastern methodology down westerner throats, and we are vomiting it back in their faces. Whether our resistance changes anything or not, we must resist.
So I stand on the side of the players who are angry and frustrated by PWE's treatment. It's not just about changes to the game anymore. It's about the marginalization of the very ones PWE wants to get money from.
You forget what they took away and withheld while offering the whiskey and polio blanket in the first place. We should never have been relegated to clinging to either. If Cryptic ever cared about longevity we would never have seen ships from lockboxes merely supplementary equipment. We'd have a real, dynamic reputation system not a glorified currency grind, half of which we spent the first two years playing. And they would actually fix the myriad of bugs that have been plaguing this game since its inception.
The only thing they are concerned with is the amount of money they can make off their next instant cash grab until enough people get tired of the sideshow and get hooked on Neverwinter by the same bait. How many different lockboxes have we had now in what timeframe? Yet the team isn't big enough to fix the Tholian Red Alert or Beam to First City.
Jack Emmert: "Starfleet and Klingon. ... So two factions, full PvE content." Al Rivera hates Klingons Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert All cloaks should be canon.
Translation:
We ****ed up big time and didn't expect such a huge backlash from it. Currently we're lost for words because we know that nothing we can say will fix how much of a TRIBBLE up we just made. Now we're going to pull double-shifts until Thursday in the vain hope of finding some way we can try to remedy the problem.
Take er easy! Holy Roddenberry are people ever mad! Guys, at least they've said they are going to do something. That's a partial win in my book for small fleets and advocates for restoring the old IOR rewards. Better late than never.
Edit: That being said, I'm not going to hold my breath here. I don't expect a grand solution. It will most likely be a half baked band-aid that will somewhat appease the mobs until they can institute a more permanent solution.
Take er easy! Holy Roddenberry are people ever mad! Guys, at least they've said they are going to do something. That's a partial win in my book for small fleets and advocated for the old IOR rewards. Better late than never.
Edit: That being said, I'm not going to hold my breath here. I don't expect a grand solution. It will most likely be a half baked band-aid that will somewhat appease the mobs until they can institute a more permanent solution.
While I would agree, its nice to see them do something. For me, it gets down to them doing things bassackwards to start with.
Remember, they blamed YOU the players for the exploiting, yet they created the exploit to start with.
never mind the way it was done. Just points to a systematic failure within cryptic, that they will not address. I am convinced now, they do not know how to do so.
This may be the most commented thread, but it's pretty much the same people posting over and over :rolleyes: I wonder how many individuals have actually posted. Personally, I'm not upset because I wasn't exploiting the rewards so never gained a dependency on them.
I'm compiling exactly those statistics now for the benefit of the community and Cryptic.
The majority of posts in this huge thread are overwhelmingly against the change. And believe me, this does affect you, because if Cryptic are left unaccountable for this - something that's angered a large number of the forum community, what makes you think they'll care when they finally do something that does affect you?
Nobody here is saying the Fleet Marks should have stayed on Foundry missions, nobody here is disagreeing that these things were being 'exploited' - what they're saying is that you don't remove the single largest source of [a currency] from an MMO without having any immediate plans to restore the balance in some way.
Some of us played IOR maybe once or twice a day - and played story content too - not grinders - that got us 700 FMs a week - those are gone now. There's no adequate excuse for that.
While I would agree, its nice to see them do something. For me, it gets down to them doing things bassackwards to start with.
Remember, they blamed YOU the players for the exploiting, yet they created the exploit to start with.
never mind the way it was done. Just points to a systematic failure within cryptic, that they will not address. I am convinced now, they do not know how to do so.
But that does raise a point, its not Cryptic's fault that the players are always looking for the next exploit. Even if one is there, doesn't mean the players should actually use it. You can steal something from a shop, because the shopkeeper has left it open on the window-side, doesn't mean you should...
But that does raise a point, its not Cryptic's fault that the players are always looking for the next exploit. Even if one is there, doesn't mean the players should actually use it. You can steal something from a shop, because the shopkeeper has left it open on the window-side, doesn't mean you should...
I sort-of agree but I don't. Yes, in an ideal world, people would just report exploits instead of using them to their advantage - in an ideal world, the developers would have enough foresight to ensure these exploits aren't possible.
But Cryptic knew that players were exploiting the IOR daily with 'clickies' so they removed it, tinkered with the system a bit and replaced it with a just-as-exploitable repeatable IOR mission.
That's not unfortunate, or unexpected - it's incompentent - and to paraphrase the saying, "a fool and his Fleet Marks are easily parted" :rolleyes:
Comments
A noble gesture to be certain. However, this is not a court of law, there is no accused or defendant and they certainly can voice their responses themselves. They have people employed specifically for that task.
This is however a forum thread in which I dare say hundreds of customers, who are passionate about the product & IP and want to see it succeed, are expressing their dissatisfaction not only with the tip of the iceberg (Valentine's Day Patch), but with all the underlying issues that have remained unresolved despite their continued reports and requests thereof.
Fleet: 1st Order of Role-Players' Guild - gaming together since 2004
Yes, this thread has become largely repetitive, but that happened fairly quickly, mainly because the issues are well known and almost universally understood. There have been several proposals to fix or at least reduce the problems, but from all we can see they've fallen on deaf ears. So now it's less about actually contributing something new to the discussion than it is about simply sustaining the movement in hopes of forcing change. But that doesn't mean that we "deserved" a response that addressed almost none of our concerns.
Your proposal might well work. The only major downsides are that it will disadvantage those fleets with fewer active VA players, an issue many here have complained about, and that it does nothing about inputs other than Fleet Marks. One of my favorite proposals so far was the one to allow players to choose their rewards for any content they run, which would address both as well as helping to reduce boredom with repeating content.
I'll also propose my own solution to the grind problem, simple, but unlikely to be implemented. Reduce project requirements for Reputation and Fleet projects by 25% across the board (not touching timers), double the mark rewards from normal STFs and all Romulan and Fleet Mark queues, award 960 dilithium for all of those and 1440 for elite STFs, 960 also for all episode missions (either in addition to normal rewards, or as an alternative to the item or lock box), and 240-960 for Adventure Zone missions (depending on difficulty and time investment). That would make the grind a lot lighter and make more of the game's content rewarding enough to be played, and would involve minimal changes to the existing code. The problem with it is that it's too bold and too straightforward, so it's almost certainly not going to be considered seriously, and it also doesn't fully address the issue of steering players into certain content.
Says it all for people like me. Classic PWE tactic of adding zen sink cash shop items while ignoring major bugs, such a red alerts that don't work .
PWE don't just flog a dead horse, they sell it's corpse to a UK meat dealer to put in supermarket burgers.
As I learned a long time ago at Uni, "common sense is not that common"
Join The Space Invaders,..... Federation and KDF fleets.
Tesco Burger anyone??
Yes it is unfortunately true the game has become a decayed relic of it's former self. Gone are the days before PAKLED WORLD when Dan and his team used to turn out content (actual missions, remember those guys? C'mon, we can't all have forgotten them) at a regular pace, with proper testing (Up to a month) on tribble before releasing a season and actually getting bugs fixed within a decent time from the point of reporting.
Now seasons are rushed out with bare minimum testing and bugged to hell as a result, content is almost none, we are flooded with a lockbox lottery that is as unbalanced as a Chinese voting system, bug reports are being ignored (Even those emailed directly to Dan when he gave out his address to do so), the players are furious, the board of directors obviously just sit around watching STO videos in meetings, but the State of the Game last time round was a rave review of complete success.
I guess I come from the Mirror Universe where success is measured by something different. Success was the old way Devs, PRE PAKLED WORLD when s... actually got done, and where we werent constantly attempted to be distracted by shineys to try and hide the fact that there has been bugger all released in 2 years....
I miss the old team...
***Disenchanted***
Real Join Date: Monday, 17 May 2010
I imagine this is so we won't see the change and rage from now until it goes in anyways.
If they don't tell us what the change is, we can't say they ignored us telling them how terrible it is.
I have read every post in this entire topic from day one and I can tell if nothing else the majority are frustrated and trying to do all they can to communicate the issues and even suggestion to try to help both FM's and STO as a whole, but sadly the devs are not listening it would seems.
Even more so it seem the CDF is out to try to somehow shut us up, and while we are determined in trying to voice our stance and concerns and suggestions, its a shame we have people out there that are content to continue the unending grind and defend cryptic no matter the costs.
I for one will not, if they will not listen then I like many will not be giving them any more of my time or money, as a game that is more grind then fun is just well not worth the effort anymore to even play STO while I wait to seebut I am not holding my breath.
Keep up the good fight to try to reach the devs and never let easily distracted fanboys deter you all from trying to make STO a better game for the community as a whole for us all.
In the meantime, if you feel Cryptic/PWE are not listening to their customers and effecting appropriate change in their policies, please consider joining the ranks of the 'Disenchanted' by visiting the post in my sig below and either changing your title to 'Disenchanted' if you're KDF or renaming your ship if you're Federation.
I'm not willing to let this slide and with your support we can make a difference.
Thank you.
*Edit* This is currently the 3rd most commented post in the news section since beta and also the 7th most view post - it's generated more customer ire than any issue in the 3 year history of STO.
I wonder if a Harlem Shake video full of disenchanted folk would have any effect?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Take up the battle cry and continue to voice your objections to the PWE/Cryptic "vision" of how they want us to play!
PWE/Cryptic Where are you? Why don't you listen to your CUSTOMERS!
PWE/Crytpic Stop the FARM, Bring back the FUN!
Zeus
*"One of the earliest published usages of this phrase was in Charles Dickens's Dombey and Son (1848), where he says "As the last straw breaks the laden camel's back", meaning that there is a limit to everyone's endurance, or everyone has his breaking point"
**"six billion dollar man, woman and dog..."
As a dedicated KDF player I'm currently asking myself if this game as turned into a resource managment game, I would like the opinions of other KDF players on this, if thats whats the game has become do I really need a 6 gb client on my PC? Do I really need a multicore cpu and a powerfull GPU to run it? and a developer that tell me to stop playing if I don't enjoy the game anymore?
On this last note I'm still here because my subscription expires in April so the reason its because I've paid for it and I will not give up my hopes for you to change things and make this game FUN (or give us a lighter client) untill then.
Why do I not require any feds to comment on that? not because for the feds the problem its smaller but because this its a game breaking feature for the KDF (smaller fleets in smaller faction).
Do I think that what a tier 5 starbase have to offer its a must have in the game?
It would have been a must if there was a way to PVP proprerly (we know the current state of pvp) and being rewarded for it... but NO starbases at the moment are just a vanity thing like costumes and hair styles, you could easily run all the endgame content with blue mk XI gears, you just have to actually look at the screen while engaged in an stf, on the other hand with mk XII purple fleet stuff you can easily go and make youself a snack while engaged in the same stf ... ask yourself do you really want the game to be fully automated? (if yes there are games that can do that without the need for a 6gb client -OGAME comes to mind-).
I would like to ask to the dedicates FED players the following questions:
Are you really aware of how much less has been invested into the development of the kdf faction? and most of the stuff we have its just a copy and paste operation regardless of anything "star trek", Klingon and tribbles (even tribbles knows that this its not right and they bites us at every use)? or for that matter klingons and bunnies???
How do you (fed players) envision this game without the klingons as enemies?
can you immagine Luke Skywalker not having to fight the empire?
the whole star wars saga would have looked like those teenagers movies with romantic vampires refusing to drink blood or zombies actually losing their appetite for human flesh! George Romeros Night of the dead (the 70's version) would have looked like a documenary set in a shopping mall with everyone going about their bussiness!!!
Wouldn't you Feds like to be able to choose if spend your day in the star trek universe just minding your own bussiness OR dream to be a STARFLEET cadet (or whatever rank) and fight to protect the federation against REAL challenging enemies (and being properly rewarded for it) instead of fighting NPC's with a very limited AI that can only kill you with invisible weapons or zerg mobs?
And now to the DEVS:
Are you labeling all of whats happening as just complains that inevitably comes when you are into any kind of bussiness?
May I point out that the way bussiness its made onto the internet its unique? Due to my limited capabilities in your language I'm going to make an example of what I mean (btw quoting someone else).
Lets say you receive the 200 BHP car you paid for in full just to see the car dealer cooming around your house a week later and take away half the power of your engine without an explanation or a refound for that matter...
would you be happy? No.. would that car dealer still be in bussiness for a long time? sure NO, if ever you won't buy from him again and sure you would be suggesting to do the same to your friend, family and collegue. Wouldn't you be in your right to do so?
On the other hand this its somehow normal in the internet bussiness, big companies wants big earnings and fast and doesn't matter if the products dies after a while as far as it keeps raising ammounts of cash flowing in and little expenses.. its the anciente culture of use it and trow it away!
You may argue that this its the only way you can keep the game going and that by giving (reasonably) the player base what they want you may not be able to keep the cash flowing and the sharks feed!
Does your research dept says that there are no other bussiness models possibles?
Wrong again by working togheter with your playerbase you will improve the happiness of your customers and last I check: a happy customer happily forks out the cash (and this has nothing to do with ferenghis)
Again you may argue you can't plan to pay your bills on players promises but again let me tell you're badly wrong again!
Have I got something to prove my point other than my personal opinion?
YES I very much have the prove of what I'm stating here! hard evidence! FACTS and the kind of facts that traslates straight into money!
Have a look at STAR CITIZEN!!! (wherever it'll turn out to be a scam or not i'm not here to debate that).
They have raised over 8 millions dollars on pure FAITH the game its still a year away from any apha release!!!
Why? it looks like (there are a lot of proves that it'll be that good but i prefer to wait to see the end product) the game its beeing developed by the author AND the playerbase.
A playerbase that hasn't even played the game yet its so happy to be listened that its already dishing out huges ammounts of currency on the promise that the game its going to be evolving with the players to give them the product they want (but still making it challenging)!!!
YOU ALREADY HAVE A WORKING PRODUCT on the market all you have to do its stop staring at the quaterly report and start listening to Your playerbase FOLLOW THE GREAT RIVER OF OPPORTUNITY and you are going to cash on that!
Please change your mind on us beeing only able to complain and label us as resources! Opportunity not complains!
You should also show this new amazing word of opportunities after the harlem shakes video at your next meeting!
On a personal note I would like to underline the fact that altrought the people that write on the forum may not be the majority of the players you should take into account all the people that can't write in english, french or german.. also all the people that just can't be ..bother and yet they still spend money on the game.
Please do consider that english its not my language and its taken some effort to write down whats in my mind while trying to avoid things like steril complains or make this into a flame post, my hope its that you see this the way I mean it to be: a constructive comunication! (and I admit: lil sarcasm).
I'm done with appealing to Cryptic - obviously that's beating a dead horse - it's time we took this to the gaming websites - first though we need a story - and with your help we can get their attention.
I'm not entirely sure about the legality (in terms of TOS an EULA) of organizing into a group and actively campaigning and criticizing the game and the company outside of these forums.
However as private individuals with no shared covenant there is nothing they can do about us voicing our individual un-organised dissatisfaction with the game across the internet in whatever way see fit beyond libel and defamation.
Talk to me sometime I have a good framework for the story.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
If I want to criticize Cryptic's business practices outside these forums that's my business - the worst they can do is ban my account and is that really what they want? After over 2000 mostly angry posts to start silencing and banning players?
I can imagine how well *that* would go down.
This single issue has caused more player outrage than any other event in the 3-year history of STO - if we left it pass, things will only get worse.
I agree totally, I just don't know if we can organize into a group, there is nothing they can do if you as an individual want to criticize.
However if we keep things informal or they at least have the appearance of informality I don't see what they can do.
If we start making T-shirts, open a website and accept donations there could be implications, but I'm really speaking from a position of ignorance here.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
If people will just show their support and solidarity for change in-game that's enough.
Agreed informal organisation and solidarity is key, the disenchanted movement was a great idea btw, if I was active in the game atm I'd change my Ship Names.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
You mean a bunch of Hipster Klingons not dancing and the one FED guy dancing being disruptored by a Romulan who says "Damnit Jim, Sto is dead!"
Make the feddy the hipster, then you're on!
The removal of IOR took away the whiskey and polio blanket. Now we're left with just empty promises and beads to face this quite irksome STO existence.
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.
Translation:
We ****ed up big time and didn't expect such a huge backlash from it. Currently we're lost for words because we know that nothing we can say will fix how much of a TRIBBLE up we just made. Now we're going to pull double-shifts until Thursday in the vain hope of finding some way we can try to remedy the problem.
This may be the most commented thread, but it's pretty much the same people posting over and over :rolleyes: I wonder how many individuals have actually posted. Personally, I'm not upset because I wasn't exploiting the rewards so never gained a dependency on them.
They may gripe if shirts and a website were hawked on their forums but from a third party site with no connection back to their forums they have no legal grounds. But they have been known to harass third party sites in the past.
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.
You forget what they took away and withheld while offering the whiskey and polio blanket in the first place. We should never have been relegated to clinging to either. If Cryptic ever cared about longevity we would never have seen ships from lockboxes merely supplementary equipment. We'd have a real, dynamic reputation system not a glorified currency grind, half of which we spent the first two years playing. And they would actually fix the myriad of bugs that have been plaguing this game since its inception.
The only thing they are concerned with is the amount of money they can make off their next instant cash grab until enough people get tired of the sideshow and get hooked on Neverwinter by the same bait. How many different lockboxes have we had now in what timeframe? Yet the team isn't big enough to fix the Tholian Red Alert or Beam to First City.
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.
Take er easy! Holy Roddenberry are people ever mad! Guys, at least they've said they are going to do something. That's a partial win in my book for small fleets and advocates for restoring the old IOR rewards. Better late than never.
Edit: That being said, I'm not going to hold my breath here. I don't expect a grand solution. It will most likely be a half baked band-aid that will somewhat appease the mobs until they can institute a more permanent solution.
While I would agree, its nice to see them do something. For me, it gets down to them doing things bassackwards to start with.
Remember, they blamed YOU the players for the exploiting, yet they created the exploit to start with.
never mind the way it was done. Just points to a systematic failure within cryptic, that they will not address. I am convinced now, they do not know how to do so.
I'm compiling exactly those statistics now for the benefit of the community and Cryptic.
The majority of posts in this huge thread are overwhelmingly against the change. And believe me, this does affect you, because if Cryptic are left unaccountable for this - something that's angered a large number of the forum community, what makes you think they'll care when they finally do something that does affect you?
Nobody here is saying the Fleet Marks should have stayed on Foundry missions, nobody here is disagreeing that these things were being 'exploited' - what they're saying is that you don't remove the single largest source of [a currency] from an MMO without having any immediate plans to restore the balance in some way.
Some of us played IOR maybe once or twice a day - and played story content too - not grinders - that got us 700 FMs a week - those are gone now. There's no adequate excuse for that.
But that does raise a point, its not Cryptic's fault that the players are always looking for the next exploit. Even if one is there, doesn't mean the players should actually use it. You can steal something from a shop, because the shopkeeper has left it open on the window-side, doesn't mean you should...
I sort-of agree but I don't. Yes, in an ideal world, people would just report exploits instead of using them to their advantage - in an ideal world, the developers would have enough foresight to ensure these exploits aren't possible.
But Cryptic knew that players were exploiting the IOR daily with 'clickies' so they removed it, tinkered with the system a bit and replaced it with a just-as-exploitable repeatable IOR mission.
That's not unfortunate, or unexpected - it's incompentent - and to paraphrase the saying, "a fool and his Fleet Marks are easily parted" :rolleyes: