So you are quick to pass judgement but won't even read one post. And we are supposed to give a darn about whatever you have to say if you can't even be bothered to read one simple post?
And exactly how good do we have it here? I wasn't aware forking over money for new shinnies with no new content to use them on and the same bugs that have been around for years constitutes a good arangement.
i read it. i got to like page 100 and got sleepy. it'll be my one year anniversary on the game as a free-to-play player. instead of contributing to a thread that should've been locked many many pages ago, i'll probably make a video review about my opinion of the game since i started playing 12 months ago. here's a preview: the biggest detriment to the game is not cryptic. it's the community.
It's not the give or even the take (though obviously more the latter than the former), it's the give THEN take.
Yep, IF the update to Tribble makes it in the same form to Holodeck, who's to say how long Marks will be there before being nerfed, or whether costs in the SB system get increased to "balance" things? And, there will be even MORE incentive for the AFKers to exploit Fleet Events...
I mean, honestly, thanks for the gesture (if it happens outside of the test server); it at least shows some concession and that the players are being heard(-ish);this might even give small fleets a bit more of a chance (and yes, we DO know 10 players take longer than 100 to do anything - that's academic and is NOT the issue...). But, this seems a little like overcompensation, which will come with its own consequences down the line, if track record serves.
Again, though, the heart is being missed: Fleet Marks are and were a side-effect and a more insignificant part of all of this. The issues of trust; having faith in the places we put our money; worry that any "fix" is temporary; wondering what will get cut/changed/etc. next and how soon; the concern regarding small fleets having to go "Collective" or disappear entirely, rather than remaining family-/friend-based and individual; the list goes on; these are at the heart of the matter, and are, once again, being sidestepped.
Fleet Commander
Caprica's Revenge (...actually active since November 2010, which may one day be important to archaeologists, but not to anyone else...)
i read it. i got to like page 100 and got sleepy. it'll be my one year anniversary on the game as a free-to-play player. instead of contributing to a thread that should've been locked many many pages ago, i'll probably make a video review about my opinion of the game since i started playing 12 months ago. here's a preview: the biggest detriment to the game is not cryptic. it's the community.
the biggest detriment to the game is not cryptic. it's the community.
Yup, it is the communities fault that bugs go unfixed, that no new content is added, that braindead after braindead development decisions are made. Great logic there!
Although I will agree that people paying money for mediocrity is the reason this has gone on for as long as it has, so in that case it is partly the community's fault that STO is in this state.
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
It's not the give or even the take (though obviously more the latter than the former), it's the give THEN take.
Yep, IF the update to Tribble makes it in the same form to Holodeck, who's to say how long Marks will be there before being nerfed, or whether costs in the SB system get increased to "balance" things? And, there will be even MORE incentive for the AFKers to exploit Fleet Events...
I mean, honestly, thanks for the gesture (if it happens outside of the test server); it at least shows some concession and that the players are being heard(-ish);this might even give small fleets a bit more of a chance (and yes, we DO know 10 players take longer than 100 to do anything - that's academic and is NOT the issue...). But, this seems a little like overcompensation, which will come with its own consequences down the line, if track record serves.
Again, though, the heart is being missed: Fleet Marks are and were a side-effect and a more insignificant part of all of this. The issues of trust; having faith in the places we put our money; worry that any "fix" is temporary; wondering what will get cut/changed/etc. next and how soon; the concern regarding small fleets having to go "Collective" or disappear entirely, rather than remaining family-/friend-based and individual; the list goes on; these are at the heart of the matter, and are, once again, being sidestepped.
Indeed lets not forget the issues with FM's in the foundry stem from the removal of Clickies and Season 7 input costs which in return forced Cryptic to shore up the dam with a new IOR wrapper.
Yup, it is the communities fault that bugs go unfixed, that no new content is added, that braindead after braindead development decisions are made. Great logic there!
Although I will agree that people paying money for mediocrity is the reason this has gone on for as long as it has, so in that case it is partly the community's fault that STO is in this state.
So for the 2500 post I'd like to talk about Stahl's statement that Small Fleets should go whistle...
I find the policy they have about small groups to be a total anathema to MMORPG gaming.
MMORPG's are about communities in game of players who are friends who work together.
Most if not all of us who are actually interested in the social aspect of MMO's don't want to be in a Mega fleet where we are a faceless unit amongst hundreds.
So much of enjoyment in any MMO and especially one as unbalanced and over grindy as this is the fun you can have with a group of friends playing teamwork based missions. This is why small fleets, communities of friends are so integral to keeping the game enjoyable especially when we have so many other issues. The discrimination against small fleets is actually a terrible idea if anything they should be promoting smaller fleets with tighter-knit friendly communities.
In allseriouness, I needed to highlight that "community" part. If after that he still believes WE are to fault for the game being in this state then he definately a troll (not even the CDF is that bad).
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
This post has morphed to vent a lot of different issues but as the title points out it was DStahl's attempt to explain the FM and dilithium adjustments to the foundry. I am very happy about the upcoming patch and some of the other items Dan has detailed on this and other threads since the rage began. I also know that what a lot of folks want in this thread can't be accomplished overnight.
I think the biggest thing that Dan and his crew can take away from this thread is to learn to communicate changes in advance and have an alternative ready to go before taking something away. I've been angry over the recent events as well but you have to give him credit for listening and getting these changes implemented quickly.
We have given the Cryptic team a lot of constructive feedback in between the rage and hopefully they will take this and make some changes. Dan has extended us an olive branch and I think we need to take it. It's a nice compromise for both sides and now we can work on the myriad of other items people have mentioned over the last 6 days.
Just one player's opinion that I know not everyone is going to agree with.
Gold Sub since March 2010
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
In allseriouness, I needed to highlight that "community" part. If after that he still believes WE are to fault for the game being in this state then he definately a troll (not even the CDF is that bad).
Fair enough. I feel guilty doing that simply because it's more the place of a moderator imo, and a moderator I am not.
This post has morphed to vent a lot of different issues but as the title points out it was DStahl's attempt to explain the FM and dilithium adjustments to the foundry. I am very happy about the upcoming patch and some of the other items Dan has detailed on this and other threads since the rage began. I also know that what a lot of folks want in this thread can't be accomplished overnight.
I think the biggest thing that Dan and his crew can take away from this thread is to learn to communicate changes in advance and have an alternative ready to go before taking something away. I've been angry over the recent events as well but you have to give him credit for listening and getting these changes implemented quickly.
We have given the Cryptic team a lot of constructive feedback in between the rage and hopefully they will take this and make some changes. Dan has extended us an olive branch and I think we need to take it. It's a nice compromise for both sides and now we can work on the myriad of other items people have mentioned over the last 6 days.
Just one player's opinion that I know not everyone is going to agree with.
To be honest there as been very little rage in this thread, probably a reason for why it's become so longevious.
This thread may have started from Stahl backing up their reasons for doing what they did in regards to Fleet Marks and Dilithium, with a back story of how they designed the Fleet Advancement system. But I think all this was just the final straw, regardless of whether it was Fleet Marks or not.
It could have been about anything else and the same thing would have probably happened, if it was communicated in the exact same way in which they did and implemented exactly the same too.
My main issue with the content and changes that Cryptic have made (aside from the bugs etc) is the way in which it was implemented and setup. The idea and concepts are great, but introduced and setup poorly and I still feel the Tribble server should be put to more use.
The recent patch notes which have been released for Tribble are a step in the right direction (hoping that none of it changes when it hits holodeck, which has been known to happen). However there is still many aspects of this game that need some love and attention, to deliver a solid Trek game that everyone can fully enjoy.
We can only but give our feedback and hope that Cryptic actually act on it and do their best for the community as a whole. I understand you can't always please everyone, at the same time you don't want to upset everyone either and a lot more could have been done with this game especially after S6.
It is kind of hilarious that we are accused of exploiting something the DEVs themselves put in the game. I mean really. You have conditioned us to be grinders and farmers. What exactly did you think was going to happen?
I'm still shaking my head about this.
No, I am not who you think I am. I am someone different. I am instead a banana.
This post has morphed to vent a lot of different issues but as the title points out it was DStahl's attempt to explain the FM and dilithium adjustments to the foundry. I am very happy about the upcoming patch and some of the other items Dan has detailed on this and other threads since the rage began. I also know that what a lot of folks want in this thread can't be accomplished overnight.
I think the biggest thing that Dan and his crew can take away from this thread is to learn to communicate changes in advance and have an alternative ready to go before taking something away. I've been angry over the recent events as well but you have to give him credit for listening and getting these changes implemented quickly.
We have given the Cryptic team a lot of constructive feedback in between the rage and hopefully they will take this and make some changes. Dan has extended us an olive branch and I think we need to take it. It's a nice compromise for both sides and now we can work on the myriad of other items people have mentioned over the last 6 days.
Just one player's opinion that I know not everyone is going to agree with.
While I don't agree with a few things in this post, I will say it is rife with wisdom and maturity. I don't have faith that the real issues are being or will be addressed any time soon - trust is earned, not given - but I will concede that the Tribble patch did show some sort of listening on Dan & Co.'s part, and it planted a seed of hope in me, however small or not.
Still, "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice (or ten or more times)..."
Fleet Commander
Caprica's Revenge (...actually active since November 2010, which may one day be important to archaeologists, but not to anyone else...)
It is kind of hilarious that we are accused of exploiting something the DEVs themselves put in the game. I mean really. You have conditioned us to be grinders and farmers. What exactly did you think was going to happen?
Bang on the money as ever Olivia. As grinders and farmers, how could we be expected to *not* take the path of least resistance when it comes to making fleet marks?
It is kind of hilarious that we are accused of exploiting something the DEVs themselves put in the game. I mean really. You have conditioned us to be grinders and farmers. What exactly did you think was going to happen?
I'm still shaking my head about this.
Like I said it was actually players fixing the imbalance in marks supply in the game. This wasn't about a few players making a Billion EC or 20,000 FM's in an hour by exploiting a loop-hole it was about players making a few extra FM's to try to get close to re-balancing a broken system.
Okay so guys I would like anyone that has constructive input about the state of the game to PM me I want to get the ball rolling on having a proper round-table discussion about the issues we all share common cause with , email address (though just realized don't need to as the forum has a BCC function) so we can discuss where to go from here would be cool (pls PM them don't put them in here it's bad mojo :P)
I have forgotten nothing. I was never concerned with how long fleet holding progression takes. They can design their systems however they will. We have a choice as to whether or not to partake in those systems' gameplay.
If they want fleet holding progression to ignore small fleets, then so be it. The small fleet has three choices:
1 - Grow their fleet with enough active members to more efficiently manage the amount of fleet marks and dilithium needed to progress.
2 - Play it as it is and keep complaining about how hard it is to progress because the Fleet Mark payouts are not good enough.
3 - Don't play it at all.
Just to point something out to you here, but when the fleet system came in it was quite clearly stated on the forums by Pakled World that small fleets would NOT be punished or penalized for being small.
THIS however was far from the truth, small fleets were very rapidly driven to financial ruin and had to either disband or merge with other fleets. Tell me how that is not punishing or penalizing?
Why should small fleets who were happy being small fleets, with a good collective of members have to follow one of your 3 RIDICULOUS suggestions just because Pakled World want's to cripple them after stating publicly and clearly they would be fine?????
I see nowhere in the notes that it says Pakled World will leave STO to people who actually give a damn and let the game develop in a far better fashion then the usual Pakled World crapfest it's other games already are...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] ***Disenchanted***
Real Join Date: Monday, 17 May 2010
Already been posted in here 3 or 4 times before. That and you seem to miss the point that this isn't just about FM and hasn't been for quite a few pages
Funny I don't see anything in there about less grind and more fun in the game..
Another person who obviously hasn't read the majority of posts in this thread. The issue regarding Fleet Marks was merely a symptom, not the core issue so I see no point in relaxing about this, we are annoyed and rightly so. As sad as it is the squeaky wheel gets the grease, so if we don't 'moan' about it nothing will ever change.
Just to point something out to you here, but when the fleet system came in it was quite clearly stated on the forums by Pakled World that small fleets would NOT be punished or penalized for being small.
THIS however was far from the truth, small fleets were very rapidly driven to financial ruin and had to either disband or merge with other fleets. Tell me how that is not punishing or penalizing?
Why should small fleets who were happy being small fleets, with a good collective of members have to follow one of your 3 RIDICULOUS suggestions just because Pakled World want's to cripple them after stating publicly and clearly they would be fine?????
I see nowhere in the notes that it says Pakled World will leave STO to people who actually give a damn and let the game develop in a far better fashion then the usual Pakled World crapfest it's other games already are...
Not only that but it's counter intuitive what people actually want from a fleet is a communal social space and access to fleet items. I think if you ask most players they would say they are in mega fleets because it's the only viable choice but that they would far prefer to be in a smaller fleet where their input means something and they can group together with their friends.
Human beings in general prefer to be in tight knit friendly groups especially in MMO's where a lot of enjoyment is derived from playing with people you like.
Grind my little monkeys.... Grind!(arseload of extra Fleet Marks to "compensate" but still no added Rommy Marks to the Romulan events or repeatable missions, figures)
Why in the F--K was this something that couldn't be stated TUESDAY? What secret was so secret you had to keep your trap shut till the Tribble notes Stahl?
I AM TIRED OF ALL THIS, "OOOHHH HAVE WE GOT SOMETHING FOR YOU, BUT SHHHHH YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO KNOW YET." FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP HIDING WHAT YOU'RE DOING! IT'S WORST THAN PISSING ON US AN CALLING IT RAIN!
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
I looking to start a more general discussion about the state of the game but this looks like an excellent thread to start discussing small fleet issues.
As I said before those interested in taking the common cause beyond this thread PM me to get the ball rolling.
btw, nice result against Bristol City , I saw a bunch peeps on my way home from work last night getting on the train to see the match.
ok might of missed it but ive seen posts by the players saying fix to AFK faarmers must be coming next patch has there been a comment by the devs about this problem and the other players have commented on in this thread?
fleet marks was the tiping point of a long list of problems i and i hope others will keep up the fight to see them fixed!
ok might of missed it but ive seen posts by the players saying fix to AFK faarmers must be coming next patch has there been a comment by the devs about this problem and the other players have commented on in this thread?
fleet marks was the tiping point of a long list of problems i and i hope others will keep up the fight to see them fixed!
If you mean AFKing in events, I don't think there is an easy solution to that at the moment.
Comments
i read it. i got to like page 100 and got sleepy. it'll be my one year anniversary on the game as a free-to-play player. instead of contributing to a thread that should've been locked many many pages ago, i'll probably make a video review about my opinion of the game since i started playing 12 months ago. here's a preview: the biggest detriment to the game is not cryptic. it's the community.
Okay let me re-phrase
This thread is no longer about Fleet Marks but the underlying reasons for the issues.
Is that more accurate?
#2311#2700#2316#2500
Yep, IF the update to Tribble makes it in the same form to Holodeck, who's to say how long Marks will be there before being nerfed, or whether costs in the SB system get increased to "balance" things? And, there will be even MORE incentive for the AFKers to exploit Fleet Events...
I mean, honestly, thanks for the gesture (if it happens outside of the test server); it at least shows some concession and that the players are being heard(-ish);this might even give small fleets a bit more of a chance (and yes, we DO know 10 players take longer than 100 to do anything - that's academic and is NOT the issue...). But, this seems a little like overcompensation, which will come with its own consequences down the line, if track record serves.
Again, though, the heart is being missed: Fleet Marks are and were a side-effect and a more insignificant part of all of this. The issues of trust; having faith in the places we put our money; worry that any "fix" is temporary; wondering what will get cut/changed/etc. next and how soon; the concern regarding small fleets having to go "Collective" or disappear entirely, rather than remaining family-/friend-based and individual; the list goes on; these are at the heart of the matter, and are, once again, being sidestepped.
Fleet Commander
Caprica's Revenge
(...actually active since November 2010, which may one day be important to archaeologists, but not to anyone else...)
Lol must be a troll.
I look forward to your video
#2311#2700#2316#2500
What did I say? :P
Than you didn't read post 2311.
Yup, it is the communities fault that bugs go unfixed, that no new content is added, that braindead after braindead development decisions are made. Great logic there!
Although I will agree that people paying money for mediocrity is the reason this has gone on for as long as it has, so in that case it is partly the community's fault that STO is in this state.
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
Indeed lets not forget the issues with FM's in the foundry stem from the removal of Clickies and Season 7 input costs which in return forced Cryptic to shore up the dam with a new IOR wrapper.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
*cough* feeding *cough*
I find the policy they have about small groups to be a total anathema to MMORPG gaming.
MMORPG's are about communities in game of players who are friends who work together.
Most if not all of us who are actually interested in the social aspect of MMO's don't want to be in a Mega fleet where we are a faceless unit amongst hundreds.
So much of enjoyment in any MMO and especially one as unbalanced and over grindy as this is the fun you can have with a group of friends playing teamwork based missions. This is why small fleets, communities of friends are so integral to keeping the game enjoyable especially when we have so many other issues. The discrimination against small fleets is actually a terrible idea if anything they should be promoting smaller fleets with tighter-knit friendly communities.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DdeLUA0Fms
In allseriouness, I needed to highlight that "community" part. If after that he still believes WE are to fault for the game being in this state then he definately a troll (not even the CDF is that bad).
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
I think the biggest thing that Dan and his crew can take away from this thread is to learn to communicate changes in advance and have an alternative ready to go before taking something away. I've been angry over the recent events as well but you have to give him credit for listening and getting these changes implemented quickly.
We have given the Cryptic team a lot of constructive feedback in between the rage and hopefully they will take this and make some changes. Dan has extended us an olive branch and I think we need to take it. It's a nice compromise for both sides and now we can work on the myriad of other items people have mentioned over the last 6 days.
Just one player's opinion that I know not everyone is going to agree with.
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
Fair enough. I feel guilty doing that simply because it's more the place of a moderator imo, and a moderator I am not.
Best let him lie imo.
To be honest there as been very little rage in this thread, probably a reason for why it's become so longevious.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
It could have been about anything else and the same thing would have probably happened, if it was communicated in the exact same way in which they did and implemented exactly the same too.
My main issue with the content and changes that Cryptic have made (aside from the bugs etc) is the way in which it was implemented and setup. The idea and concepts are great, but introduced and setup poorly and I still feel the Tribble server should be put to more use.
The recent patch notes which have been released for Tribble are a step in the right direction (hoping that none of it changes when it hits holodeck, which has been known to happen). However there is still many aspects of this game that need some love and attention, to deliver a solid Trek game that everyone can fully enjoy.
We can only but give our feedback and hope that Cryptic actually act on it and do their best for the community as a whole. I understand you can't always please everyone, at the same time you don't want to upset everyone either and a lot more could have been done with this game especially after S6.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I'm still shaking my head about this.
While I don't agree with a few things in this post, I will say it is rife with wisdom and maturity. I don't have faith that the real issues are being or will be addressed any time soon - trust is earned, not given - but I will concede that the Tribble patch did show some sort of listening on Dan & Co.'s part, and it planted a seed of hope in me, however small or not.
Still, "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice (or ten or more times)..."
Fleet Commander
Caprica's Revenge
(...actually active since November 2010, which may one day be important to archaeologists, but not to anyone else...)
Bang on the money as ever Olivia. As grinders and farmers, how could we be expected to *not* take the path of least resistance when it comes to making fleet marks?
You're not the only one.
Like I said it was actually players fixing the imbalance in marks supply in the game. This wasn't about a few players making a Billion EC or 20,000 FM's in an hour by exploiting a loop-hole it was about players making a few extra FM's to try to get close to re-balancing a broken system.
Okay so guys I would like anyone that has constructive input about the state of the game to PM me I want to get the ball rolling on having a proper round-table discussion about the issues we all share common cause with
#2311#2700#2316#2500
We can all relax and stop moaning.
Read the tribble patch notes
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=560651
Kirk's Protege.
Just to point something out to you here, but when the fleet system came in it was quite clearly stated on the forums by Pakled World that small fleets would NOT be punished or penalized for being small.
THIS however was far from the truth, small fleets were very rapidly driven to financial ruin and had to either disband or merge with other fleets. Tell me how that is not punishing or penalizing?
Why should small fleets who were happy being small fleets, with a good collective of members have to follow one of your 3 RIDICULOUS suggestions just because Pakled World want's to cripple them after stating publicly and clearly they would be fine?????
I see nowhere in the notes that it says Pakled World will leave STO to people who actually give a damn and let the game develop in a far better fashion then the usual Pakled World crapfest it's other games already are...
***Disenchanted***
Real Join Date: Monday, 17 May 2010
Already been posted in here 3 or 4 times before. That and you seem to miss the point that this isn't just about FM and hasn't been for quite a few pages
See post #2311 for a good summary.
Funny I don't see anything in there about less grind and more fun in the game..
Another person who obviously hasn't read the majority of posts in this thread. The issue regarding Fleet Marks was merely a symptom, not the core issue so I see no point in relaxing about this, we are annoyed and rightly so. As sad as it is the squeaky wheel gets the grease, so if we don't 'moan' about it nothing will ever change.
Not only that but it's counter intuitive what people actually want from a fleet is a communal social space and access to fleet items. I think if you ask most players they would say they are in mega fleets because it's the only viable choice but that they would far prefer to be in a smaller fleet where their input means something and they can group together with their friends.
Human beings in general prefer to be in tight knit friendly groups especially in MMO's where a lot of enjoyment is derived from playing with people you like.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
General:
1 "Vanity" typo fix
1 Vanity bug fix
1 Actual bug fix
Fleet Marks:
Grind my little monkeys.... Grind!(arseload of extra Fleet Marks to "compensate" but still no added Rommy Marks to the Romulan events or repeatable missions, figures)
Why in the F--K was this something that couldn't be stated TUESDAY? What secret was so secret you had to keep your trap shut till the Tribble notes Stahl?
I AM TIRED OF ALL THIS, "OOOHHH HAVE WE GOT SOMETHING FOR YOU, BUT SHHHHH YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO KNOW YET." FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP HIDING WHAT YOU'RE DOING! IT'S WORST THAN PISSING ON US AN CALLING IT RAIN!
For those of you that have ideas that may help smaller fleets progress, or I guess just ideas to help the fleet system in general, try this thread ==> Discuss: Alternatives to improve Small Fleet Progression
=/\= 106th Fleet =/\=
Website | Fleet Charter | Mission Statement | Forums | Join | F.A.Q.
I looking to start a more general discussion about the state of the game but this looks like an excellent thread to start discussing small fleet issues.
As I said before those interested in taking the common cause beyond this thread PM me to get the ball rolling.
btw, nice result against Bristol City
#2311#2700#2316#2500
fleet marks was the tiping point of a long list of problems i and i hope others will keep up the fight to see them fixed!
If you mean AFKing in events, I don't think there is an easy solution to that at the moment.
#2311#2700#2316#2500