We DO expect Fleet Holdings to require "group" gameplay for the most part. This is why we will continue to tune Fleet Holdings up through the May update.
Tune fleet holdings up ... even more? I don't know if that's the right way to go, honestly.
"Everything about the Jham'Hadar is lethal!" - Eris
Original Join Date: January 30th, 2010
Armsman, I'm not condoning using the forums as the only form of feed back for the devs. But as far as we can tell, the powers that be have been relying on metrics alone.
What I call for is that the powers that be to realise that this is a bad thing and that in order to make this game better (and make us rather happier) they should use a variety of methods to judge in game and community sentiment.
Also, I think that the whole "metrics" thing was seized upon because it has cropped up again and again in statements by Dan Stahl. It's almost meme worthy
In sociology (one of the areas of my studies) there are two main kinds of data. Quantitative and qualitative. The former is the type of thing you get in interviews and observation, where as the latter is what you'd get from questionnaires, metrics etc. Yes, metrics.
Both kinds of data have flaws and both have strengths. I think it is reasonable to think that to come up with a good solid picture you need lots of both types of data rather than one or the other.
From what we have seen, it would appear that Cryptic has fallen into the trap of favouring one kind over the other.
It's one of those terms that invalidates any argument on the part of the user, even if there are some good points in the argument otherwise.
That is, it seems to be equally applied to those who truly do seem to think nothing Cryptic does is faulty and to those who see both the good and the faults.
It is the flip side of calling someone a "troll" and carries about as weight.
It's one of those terms that invalidates any argument on the part of the user, even if there are some good points in the argument otherwise.
That is, it seems to be equally applied to those who truly do seem to think nothing Cryptic does is faulty and to those who see both the good and the faults.
It is the flip side of calling someone a "troll" and carries about as weight.
I suppose it'd be an exercise in futility to see the patch posted to Tribble this afternoon or evening so it has at least 24 hours of testing before it hits Holodeck?
Cautiously optimistic -- increasing fleet mark rewards should be very easy (you change a few numbers in a database). Adding them to PvP may take more time for their system and anti-AFK tech.
YET -- their metrics show (and the Devs have backed this up by comments in interviews):
The sales of Master Keys to open Lockboxes is the most lucrative/successful method that STO has to generate revenue and profit to date. <snip>
I hope they have an alternate plan for earning revenue then...
On May 9, the Wall Street Journal reported Japanese mobile video game firm Gree Inc. would discontinue certain online games that involved the purchase of virtual items that utilize a chance factor akin to lottery gaming. On Gree properties, as with many other online games utilizing micro transactions, customers buy mystery packages that, when opened, reveal virtual objects worth little to a lot depending on their rarity.
...Perfect World may be wise to reconcile with their players before a "critical threshold" of complaints are received, triggering a Japanese-like response.
What a suitable quote for what is going on this weekend as well.
Now if PWE wanted to know of a much better way they could earn tremendous profit and satisfy their customer base at the same time... well they don't listen to us anyway, so what's the point?
Instead all they want to do is remove things from the game and punish it's player base - well good luck with that strategy let me know how it works out for ya.
There are Four Lights... say no to ARCFleet: 1st Order of Role-Players' Guild - gaming together since 2004
DaveyNY, it would seem to me that you haven't played any really good games then. STO as it stands is at best mediocre. The thing that drew me in regardless of the mediocre reviews?
Star Trek.
I'd be curious to know what your 'good' list of MMOs are. Maybe there's something really good out there I haven't tried yet.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Also, I think that the whole "metrics" thing was seized upon because it has cropped up again and again in statements by Dan Stahl. It's almost meme worthy .
Metrics are invaluable for accurate measurements -- but they are also easily manipulated in some situations.
For example, metrics may say a lot of people are participating in <insert grind name here>, but they cannot tell you if the players are enjoying it.
I know for myself, I've participated in some of the grind with the expectations, nurtured by Mr. Stahl's comments concerning the update formerly know as Season 8, that more of the content I enjoy is forthcoming.
However, early descriptions of Season 7 included the term "story-focused" which turned out not to be the case. So I take it with a grain of salt until I see the end result. My *hope* is that a lot of the story components were pushed off to the May update while systems upgrades were developed for Season 7. I will put off having any *expectations* one way or the other for now.
It's one of those terms that invalidates any argument on the part of the user, even if there are some good points in the argument otherwise.
No it doesn't invalidate anything it states the truth; whatever boneheaded decision the devs make and whatever boneheaded way they try to deflect the anger there are always a few that will defend them no matter what.
Cryptic could lower the refinement cap to 2k and jack up the dilithium prices by 50% and people would still defend the decision.
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
I suppose it'd be an exercise in futility to see the patch posted to Tribble this afternoon or evening so it has at least 24 hours of testing before it hits Holodeck?
Cautiously optimistic -- increasing fleet mark rewards should be very easy (you change a few numbers in a database). Adding them to PvP may take more time for their system and anti-AFK tech.
Tribble seems to get it's patches in the afternoon-evening time window on the west coast (a quick glance at the Tribble notes puts the time window from about 12:30 to 4:00 ish Pacific time), so it may be slated to go up today.
Though you'd think that'd be something we could have been told...
We absolutely do listen to feedback. But there is another issue, some people like to exploit.
I take full responsibility and freely admit that we have been heavy handed with closing exploits and that in the future we will strive to be more considerate about how we close loopholes. Providing clear alternatives for players NOT exploiting while we close down the holes.
If you go back in time to when Foundry missions HAD NO REWARDS, these issues were not around. It is only when we started adding "tangible" rewards to the Foundry that the issues surrounding the Foundry became more in depth.
We want to reward Foundry missions. We want players to be recognized for making great missions (where great is determined by the player base - not us).
However, as soon as we started attaching real rewards to the Foundry, exploits started.
Whether it was the click a contact missions or the recent AFK farming of Foundry missions, having rewards on Foundry missions is problematic.
We take responsibility for putting the rewards there in the first place, but it is out of our desire to credit those who make missions in the Foundry that achieve status in the community.
So recently, we pulled Fleet Marks from the Foundry because there were too many people AFK completing missions, or in other words logging into the mission, letting the client sit there for 30 minutes and then collecting rewards, and Fleet Marks to boot.
Should we have upped the Fleet Marks on other missions before we pulled the FMs from the Foundry? Well I think the answer is obviously yes.
But to think that we are pulling Fleet Marks without an intention to add them back is false. We really do monitor Fleet Marks daily and we know how last week's changes impacted overall Fleet Mark earning. We will be compensating in this week's update to Holodeck.
Will it make everyone happy? no. But it will add Fleet Marks back into the economy.
We do plan to continue updating the Fleet Mark economies as the game progresses and as stated in posts several days ago, we will be reclassifying what are Events and what are Fleet Actions with a goal of making Fleet Marks the reward for "Group" gameplay.
Fleet Projects are only a small percentage Fleet Mark based so if you do not like to "group" then you'll have to contribute in other ways. We DO expect Fleet Holdings to require "group" gameplay for the most part. This is why we will continue to tune Fleet Holdings up through the May update.
No it doesn't invalidate anything it states the truth; whatever boneheaded decision the devs make and whatever boneheaded way they try to deflect the anger there are always a few that will defend them no matter what.
Cryptic could lower the refinement cap to 2k and jack up the dilithium prices by 50% and people would still defend the decision.
I agree that there are those who will defend anything. I've debated a few myself. The problem comes when those who see both the good and the bad get tarred with the same brush -- or those who have differing viewpoints as to whether a specific thing was a boneheaded move or not.
That is "if you disagree with my viewpoint, you're just a CDF/troll and what you say doesn't matter."
Whenever I see "CDF" or "troll" in a post, it automatically drops down the scale of validity for me. It's dismissive of someone else's viewpoint, not a rational point of discussion.
The initial post was on a Thursday. Stahl posted a second time later that day. Brandon posted letting us know feedback was continuously being collected on a weekend, Saturday IIRC. Today is Monday; the people capable of making decisions just got back to work today and doubtless have a massive pile of feedback, both intelligent and otherwise, to look through.
Tuesday. Tomorrow. If we don't get a reply by the end of the day Tuesday, then whine about being ignored. Believe it or not, it takes time to consider responses and possible solutions.
Unfortunately, there would be a workaround on this one. Larger fleet Commanders would simply cut loose their non productive or less productive members in favor of cheaper projects. If given the opportunity; I fear a good portion would bite at the chance. If you have a 100 man fleet,but only 20 contribute the majority, it would be in their best interest to let the others go,and allow the highly productive members to work a little less to get way more.
But I concede your point,there are certainly more than the two options Dan gave us. PWE just doesn't want you to think there may be more options available.
As I stated 100s of threads before, additional Fleet Marks are coming.
Will Fleet Marks be added back to Foundry missions? Nope.
Will Fleet Marks be increased on other missions? Yes.
How soon?
As I hinted at last week, you will see changes over the next several month, but the first change will be this Thursday.
We are not detailing that change until the patch notes hit.
Wow...would it be possible for you to show just a little more contempt in that post? Each and every negative reaction in this thread is the result of your hamfisted attempts at cleaning up a mess you created. In short, you fully deserve the wrath of the players for the shortsignted and ill timed decision you made. Yes, you. As Executive Producer, it's my understanding that every game changing decision goes through you. You owe your customers more than a "we'll talk about it when WE decide to" and you bloody well know it.
This is a full blown, five alarm cluster-frak that needs some serious fixing immediately. Not a week from now, not a month from now, and certainly not "whenever we get around to it." The decision was made to remove access to an already limited currency with no viable replacement ready to go.
Your players are more than a set of metrics. If you actually took the time to just park yourself in ESD and listen to the zone chat, you might realize that. This game is more than a series of spreadsheets and figures to the players. I don't think it's too much to ask that you consider the players of your game in a higher regard than a collection of data. Stop telling us "you're playing it wrong" and let us play the game as we want. Sure, fix the massive exploits, the bugs, and whatnot, but for the love of (insert deity of preference here), stop telling us HOW to play the game, and let us actually play it!
You majorly fraked up. But the sad part is, in your eyes, you've done nothing wrong, even though the state of morale across the boards and in the game should very clearly tell you otherwise. Your snide post proves to me that you're completely out of touch with the decisions you make for this game and even more out of touch with the people who play it. I sincerely hope you see this and start making decisions that are good for the players and not just PWE/Cryptic's bottom line.
I think you're completely missing the real problem here:
The FM/IOR thing was only a tiny capper that tipped things over, the real problem's like that iceberg that looks pretty right off the side of your cruise ship.
the REAL problem, is the constant march of bugs and defects, at least two in every patch.
And the displayed cavalier attitude TOWARD those long-known issues that go unresolved while the Staff seems to obsess over the gated grind tacked on at end-game (and not in a positive or constructive manner, either.)
Forget "Customer Service" because the real problem is "Quality of Workmanship".
The two-minute Engineering Team bug, for instance, is a significant, REAL problem-one that happens to coincide with the patch that also removed the FM from IOR. The "Ensign Flatulent" cloaking bug is a LONG STANDING ISSUE (one that was cavalierly deflected as "Working as intended"...) Lag-inducing pet-spams are a real problem, one that has not even been acknowledged at developer level.
Then we go to the S7 issues- Rep system items not showing up because they were never finished, the Rep Passives having to be hot-patched because (surprise) they were never TESTED, Staff decisions to go forward with S7 as-it-was when the Test feedback showed it wasn't ready for prime-time and needed significant work.
Not "Insignificant", not a minor tweak, but SERIOUS work.
Missions that don't load, don't activate, or activate you right into "Well, it's already over" (Tau Dewa Alerts), Maps with Lag-generators (Pi Canis, Regulus sector, etc. Borg alerts-those big white swatches of lag that make those activities a pain in the hindquarters to even LOOK AT.) Missions that bug-and-crash routinely (and used to work just fine) like the opening mission for the 2800 string. Starbase Fleet Defense is so bugged almost nobody bothers playing it anymore-in spite of the payout (which is too low for the time invested).
There are hundereds more-issues that people have come up with 'workarounds' for that should NEVER HAVE BEEN ISSUES TO BEGIN WITH.
The problems are legion, too many to list, too many features that aren't features, too many bugs, too many things that don't work right (and should-often things that worked FINE in earlier versions of the game's code...)
When you ADD the attitude displayed in the thinking BEHIND the FM patch (articulated BY Mr. Stahl himself at the beginning of this thread), the CORRECT response IS TO BE ANGRY.
What a suitable quote for what is going on this weekend as well.
Now if PWE wanted to know of a much better way they could earn tremendous profit and satisfy their customer base at the same time... well they don't listen to us anyway, so what's the point?
Instead all they want to do is remove things from the game and punish it's player base - well good luck with that strategy let me know how it works out for ya.
If you lived through the late 1980s, you may remember the old 900 numbers. During the late afternoon hours, when kids got back from school, the 900 commercials use to lure kids into calling. Companies ran the commercials during "Smurfs", "She-Ra", "He-Man", "M.A.S.K.", "Gi-Joe", etc... You got the first minute for .50 cents, and then every other additional minute costs $1+. Kids would call the 900 number, so they can hear a message from their favorite cartoon character. If what the article says is true, MMOs have replaced the old 900 number scams. What ultimately happened to the 900 number industry was an outcry, which triggered the US government to act with strict regulations.
I wonder if the tides are shifting against microtransactions?
I agree that there are those who will defend anything. I've debated a few myself. The problem comes when those who see both the good and the bad get tarred with the same brush -- or those who have differing viewpoints as to whether a specific thing was a boneheaded move or not.
That is "if you disagree with my viewpoint, you're just a CDF/troll and what you say doesn't matter."
It's not about differing viewpoints. There are many differing viewpoints in this thread. But there is a difference between differeing viewpints and rampant fanboyism. A paraphrased example:
Player: We are tired of the bugs, the grind, and lack of content. CDF: Geez, it's a couple of fleet marks.
Player: I don't car about the marks, I just want some bug free gameplay. CDF: You won't be happy until they reinstate fleet marks.
Player: Again, forget the marks. I would be happy if we got a sligh dilithium refinement cap increase. CDF: LOL at being made at lack of Fleet Marks.
That's prety much how it goes. That's what seperates a fanboy from a person with a differing viewpoint.
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
Don't fall for this statement. You can hear the players complain about the changes to the foundary missions in the ESD zone, well we can, I don't know if Cryptic are listening to their players in-game.
Metrics won't show up players who are disappointed and hoping that things will change relatively soon - posters on these forums are being relied upon by the silent ones to help those changes happen.
It's hard to hear when the hearing aid batteries are dead!
Kind of like this... "I see what you mean said the blind man!"
What a suitable quote for what is going on this weekend as well.
Now if PWE wanted to know of a much better way they could earn tremendous profit and satisfy their customer base at the same time... well they don't listen to us anyway, so what's the point?
Instead all they want to do is remove things from the game and punish it's player base - well good luck with that strategy let me know how it works out for ya.
I read the article and it gave me a wonderful idea for a new video. I will work on it and hopefully it rings true with people.
The whole "gacha" factor is annoyingly real and should be addressed as well. To think...all these things are coming to light simply because Cryptic decided to remove our fleet marks. Well, Cryptic, in case you didn't know. It's still winter here.
No, I am not who you think I am. I am someone different. I am instead a banana.
I agree that there are those who will defend anything. I've debated a few myself. The problem comes when those who see both the good and the bad get tarred with the same brush -- or those who have differing viewpoints as to whether a specific thing was a boneheaded move or not.
That is "if you disagree with my viewpoint, you're just a CDF/troll and what you say doesn't matter."
Whenever I see "CDF" or "troll" in a post, it automatically drops down the scale of validity for me. It's dismissive of someone else's viewpoint, not a rational point of discussion.
Hey, I use CDF in a lot of my posts, but it really only applies to 3 or 4 people who everyone knows who they are. The term does apply to these people and has from day one.
They're just as bad as me except they don't want to acknowledge that. I don't tell them to "get lost", or "you cannot post" or any other of a thousand things that I have heard time and time again.
There's also another set that will also defend Cryptic to the hilt and belittle or ridicule others who don't agree with their opinion, but when something happens that effects them, they too scream and shout like the rest about injustice. We know these people too.
There's also the sanctimonious ones, the ones who looove to use big words and big posts to show how clever they are and always using "buzz words" to make them sound like they know what they are talking about.
And do you know what, I wouldn't want any of them to change.
In the end, these forums have been better than the game itself and I don't see anything changing except more and more people being unhappy with this great IP being ruined.
Straight from the mouth of one of the leaders of the CDF - "I tell you what, Haven't spent any money either - I'm a lousy freeloader" - Jonsills 17/12/2014
As I stated 100s of threads before, additional Fleet Marks are coming.
Will Fleet Marks be added back to Foundry missions? Nope.
Will Fleet Marks be increased on other missions? Yes.
How soon?
As I hinted at last week, you will see changes over the next several month, but the first change will be this Thursday.
We are not detailing that change until the patch notes hit.
Dan,
Adding in FM's in other places is just a small thing of what we are saying here.
The game has become a grind without any real new fun content for a long time now. There are so many bugs and broken promises that have been left that way for years now that just doing the above will not work now.
If only you and the dev team would just take time to make the game stable and more fun without the grinding, that even you have posted before was not fun and we should not have to do, we (aka the customers) would support you and make this the best, most fun, most played, and most profitable game ever!
As I stated 100s of threads before, additional Fleet Marks are coming.
Will Fleet Marks be added back to Foundry missions? Nope.
Will Fleet Marks be increased on other missions? Yes.
How soon?
As I hinted at last week, you will see changes over the next several month, but the first change will be this Thursday.
We are not detailing that change until the patch notes hit.
I guess we should be happy you seem to care but... "Why so Cryptic!?"
I hope take us Serious because you trigger game breaking issue with removing fleet marks form daily officer reports. my question is why wanted turn game in wow with all the grinding and reps and marks? You need understand the fact most people you got left wow or other games with grinding maybe more simple solutions would keep game around longer. You may not know it but planet seeds for games death ignoring other issues bugs that been in the game and need be addressed beside issues of fleet marks.
QUOTE=vividh;8178631]Let's just see what happens on Thursday.[/QUOTE]
Sorry tell you but it will be a patch add yet another zen ship to the game and Ignore other issues Oh by the way foundry will be down yet again.
my other issue if going feature a foundry mission can you work with people posted and clean them up spelling and not be punny but make them less cryptic:o
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] DELTA RISING FIXS THERE NEVER COMING WHY I'M I WASTING MY TIME ASKING FOR THEM ???
200+ pages on a thread started by dStahl himself, and all we get from him here is a terse note effectively saying 'trust me and shut up'.
Even in the post you quoted, he still takes no responsibility for throwing the valentines day massacre patch onto tribble, generating 75 pages of bug reports, all of which are ignored, the patch is sent live and (now known to be) seriously bugged....and all this just before a 3 day weekend.
Staggeringly short sighted at best, certainly apology worthy, and yet what do we get?
I take full responsibility and freely admit that we have been heavy handed with closing exploits and that in the future we will strive to be more considerate about how we close loopholes. Providing clear alternatives for players NOT exploiting while we close down the holes.
If you go back in time to when Foundry missions HAD NO REWARDS, these issues were not around. It is only when we started adding "tangible" rewards to the Foundry that the issues surrounding the Foundry became more in depth.
But you're a smart guy Dan - you're surrounded by smart people making missions using tools developed by smart programmers.
You knew exactly these type of missions could be created with the Foundry when you released it to the STO community. You also (by your own admission above) knew that some people like to exploit.
Given this, I find it incredibly hard to believe that you were taken by surprise when a segment of the player-base started grinding these missions for easy Marks/Dilithium - you've been in the business of making MMOs for how long now exactly?
We want to reward Foundry missions. We want players to be recognized for making great missions (where great is determined by the player base - not us).
More or less than you want your players to be able to advance their Fleet bases or earn Dilithium and other rewards without having to grind dull, repetitive content?
Something as time-consuming, costly and controversial as the Fleet Advancement System needs more careful tuning and handling and discussion than just throwing a bunch of Marks at an unrelated mission.
People have invested thousands of hours of their time and thousands of dollars of their money in their Fleets - they're the single biggest sink in the game - don't you think such a contentious issue needs to be handled with exceptional care?
We take responsibility for putting the rewards there in the first place, but it is out of our desire to credit those who make missions in the Foundry that achieve status in the community.
And that's fine and dandy, just don't TRIBBLE with the wider economy because you'd like to support the Foundry authors.
So recently, we pulled Fleet Marks from the Foundry because there were too many people AFK completing missions, or in other words logging into the mission, letting the client sit there for 30 minutes and then collecting rewards, and Fleet Marks to boot.
So why only the Fleet Marks? You can still run those missions and get Dilithium and loot (and I'm sure many people are) - in fact, you can make a 2 -hour Boff-Grinder now that awards more Dilithium than any other mission in the game for the player doing nothing.
Why Fleet Marks? Is it because there's no system to control them they way you do Dilithium refining?
But to think that we are pulling Fleet Marks without an intention to add them back is false. We really do monitor Fleet Marks daily and we know how last week's changes impacted overall Fleet Mark earning. We will be compensating in this week's update to Holodeck.
Will it make everyone happy? no. But it will add Fleet Marks back into the economy.
See this just makes me shake my head - sure, you're never going to make everyone happy but a statement like this just says to me 'you're not gonna like it - any of you' - is that me being pessimistic? Or is it just you being Dan Stahl?
We do plan to continue updating the Fleet Mark economies as the game progresses and as stated in posts several days ago, we will be reclassifying what are Events and what are Fleet Actions with a goal of making Fleet Marks the reward for "Group" gameplay.
Fleet Projects are only a small percentage Fleet Mark based so if you do not like to "group" then you'll have to contribute in other ways. We DO expect Fleet Holdings to require "group" gameplay for the most part. This is why we will continue to tune Fleet Holdings up through the May update.
But Fleet Marks award 50 Fleet Credits per Mark whilst Dilithium - (y'know - the stuff you buy with REAL money) awards 1 Fleet Credit - other consumables award far less.
Now, there's small Fleets out there where the members are swimming in Fleet Credits, there's also large fleets where members struggle to earn FCs because projects get filled so fast.
Which means my options if I don't want to do Fleet Actions, are to put Dilithium in (good one Dan!) or dozens of Doffs and other crappy resources which get me very few Fleet Credits.
Put simply, it's unfair to a segment of your players and it isn't going to work.
It was absolutely our poor decision to put Fleet Marks on the Foundry mission in the first place. That is our mistake and we let it go on for too long.
To say that we punished everyone is very subjective because at the same time that we removed Fleet Marks, we greatly increased the amount of Dilithium that Foundry missions can reward. Dilithium is in far more demand by Fleets than Fleet Marks, and this entirely designed to aid. Dilithium is much safer to reward in Foundry (which tends to see a large amount of exploiting) because of the refinement cap.
So, as one upset customer wrote in "now I have to actually play the game in order to make Fleet Marks?" Yes. You must actively participate in order to gain Fleet Marks. You cannot go AFK in a Foundry mission and then alt-tab back over once the mission completes.
On a programming side, we are working on better ways to detect this so that we can be clearer about "qualifying missions" but in the meantime the changes are done in the best interest of the game.
"but in the meantime the changes are done in the best interest of the game."
Interesting how they make decisions. How about we make changes with the best interest on the player in mind. After all, that is not how business succeed? Just to give you guys a short lesson in business, the measure of happiness of customer will have an effect on your profit. Happy players = happy customers = more purchases....
I just don't see any reason to get so worked up over an Online Computer Game.
Things have changed drastically many times since this games inception (including the company who owns it), this is just another change that has come along that has many players in a snit cause it isn't something they like.
A month or two from now there will be another change that causes an uproar and this one will slide to a back burner.
I've been around long enough to know that what I can't change or control, means I have to adapt or go find something else to do.
A game, is not something that I let get the best of my emotions...
Especially when that's one of the driving forces behind companies attempting to get my money.
Just a note to ponder on...
Every idea, change, or movement start with just one person!
Comments
CDF = Cryptic Defense Force??
Tune fleet holdings up ... even more? I don't know if that's the right way to go, honestly.
Original Join Date: January 30th, 2010
I think you've moved the "up". I read it as "up through May." (up relating to time frame, e.g., "up until release".)
What I call for is that the powers that be to realise that this is a bad thing and that in order to make this game better (and make us rather happier) they should use a variety of methods to judge in game and community sentiment.
Also, I think that the whole "metrics" thing was seized upon because it has cropped up again and again in statements by Dan Stahl. It's almost meme worthy
In sociology (one of the areas of my studies) there are two main kinds of data. Quantitative and qualitative. The former is the type of thing you get in interviews and observation, where as the latter is what you'd get from questionnaires, metrics etc. Yes, metrics.
Both kinds of data have flaws and both have strengths. I think it is reasonable to think that to come up with a good solid picture you need lots of both types of data rather than one or the other.
From what we have seen, it would appear that Cryptic has fallen into the trap of favouring one kind over the other.
Original Join Date: January 30th, 2010
It's one of those terms that invalidates any argument on the part of the user, even if there are some good points in the argument otherwise.
That is, it seems to be equally applied to those who truly do seem to think nothing Cryptic does is faulty and to those who see both the good and the faults.
It is the flip side of calling someone a "troll" and carries about as weight.
Thank you for the clarification..:)
Cautiously optimistic -- increasing fleet mark rewards should be very easy (you change a few numbers in a database). Adding them to PvP may take more time for their system and anti-AFK tech.
My STOwiki page | Reachable in-game @PhyrexianHero
Fed Armada: Section 31 (level 730, 2700+ members)
KDF Armada: Klingon Intelligence (level 699, 2100+ members)
I hope they have an alternate plan for earning revenue then... The article even mentions STO directly. Do you want to know more?
http://seekingalpha.com/article/611721-regulation-may-alter-mmo-landscape-part-1
What a suitable quote for what is going on this weekend as well.
Now if PWE wanted to know of a much better way they could earn tremendous profit and satisfy their customer base at the same time... well they don't listen to us anyway, so what's the point?
Instead all they want to do is remove things from the game and punish it's player base - well good luck with that strategy let me know how it works out for ya.
Fleet: 1st Order of Role-Players' Guild - gaming together since 2004
I'd be curious to know what your 'good' list of MMOs are. Maybe there's something really good out there I haven't tried yet.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Metrics are invaluable for accurate measurements -- but they are also easily manipulated in some situations.
For example, metrics may say a lot of people are participating in <insert grind name here>, but they cannot tell you if the players are enjoying it.
I know for myself, I've participated in some of the grind with the expectations, nurtured by Mr. Stahl's comments concerning the update formerly know as Season 8, that more of the content I enjoy is forthcoming.
However, early descriptions of Season 7 included the term "story-focused" which turned out not to be the case. So I take it with a grain of salt until I see the end result. My *hope* is that a lot of the story components were pushed off to the May update while systems upgrades were developed for Season 7. I will put off having any *expectations* one way or the other for now.
No it doesn't invalidate anything it states the truth; whatever boneheaded decision the devs make and whatever boneheaded way they try to deflect the anger there are always a few that will defend them no matter what.
Cryptic could lower the refinement cap to 2k and jack up the dilithium prices by 50% and people would still defend the decision.
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
Tribble seems to get it's patches in the afternoon-evening time window on the west coast (a quick glance at the Tribble notes puts the time window from about 12:30 to 4:00 ish Pacific time), so it may be slated to go up today.
Though you'd think that'd be something we could have been told...
Why wasn't this posted in this thread, too?
I agree that there are those who will defend anything. I've debated a few myself. The problem comes when those who see both the good and the bad get tarred with the same brush -- or those who have differing viewpoints as to whether a specific thing was a boneheaded move or not.
That is "if you disagree with my viewpoint, you're just a CDF/troll and what you say doesn't matter."
Whenever I see "CDF" or "troll" in a post, it automatically drops down the scale of validity for me. It's dismissive of someone else's viewpoint, not a rational point of discussion.
The question is... is he the Executive Producer or just in charge of the Foundry and UGC now?
Maybe he has been told by the "overlords" to do the later and not speak as an Executive Producer...
PWE/Cryptic Stop the FARM, Bring back the FUN!
Zeus
Wow...would it be possible for you to show just a little more contempt in that post? Each and every negative reaction in this thread is the result of your hamfisted attempts at cleaning up a mess you created. In short, you fully deserve the wrath of the players for the shortsignted and ill timed decision you made. Yes, you. As Executive Producer, it's my understanding that every game changing decision goes through you. You owe your customers more than a "we'll talk about it when WE decide to" and you bloody well know it.
This is a full blown, five alarm cluster-frak that needs some serious fixing immediately. Not a week from now, not a month from now, and certainly not "whenever we get around to it." The decision was made to remove access to an already limited currency with no viable replacement ready to go.
Your players are more than a set of metrics. If you actually took the time to just park yourself in ESD and listen to the zone chat, you might realize that. This game is more than a series of spreadsheets and figures to the players. I don't think it's too much to ask that you consider the players of your game in a higher regard than a collection of data. Stop telling us "you're playing it wrong" and let us play the game as we want. Sure, fix the massive exploits, the bugs, and whatnot, but for the love of (insert deity of preference here), stop telling us HOW to play the game, and let us actually play it!
You majorly fraked up. But the sad part is, in your eyes, you've done nothing wrong, even though the state of morale across the boards and in the game should very clearly tell you otherwise. Your snide post proves to me that you're completely out of touch with the decisions you make for this game and even more out of touch with the people who play it. I sincerely hope you see this and start making decisions that are good for the players and not just PWE/Cryptic's bottom line.
Direct and to the heart of the matter. Good post.
I wonder if the tides are shifting against microtransactions?
We will have to wait and see.
It's not about differing viewpoints. There are many differing viewpoints in this thread. But there is a difference between differeing viewpints and rampant fanboyism. A paraphrased example:
Player: We are tired of the bugs, the grind, and lack of content.
CDF: Geez, it's a couple of fleet marks.
Player: I don't car about the marks, I just want some bug free gameplay.
CDF: You won't be happy until they reinstate fleet marks.
Player: Again, forget the marks. I would be happy if we got a sligh dilithium refinement cap increase.
CDF: LOL at being made at lack of Fleet Marks.
That's prety much how it goes. That's what seperates a fanboy from a person with a differing viewpoint.
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
It's hard to hear when the hearing aid batteries are dead!
Kind of like this... "I see what you mean said the blind man!"
PWE/Cryptic Stop the FARM, Bring back the FUN!
Zeus
I read the article and it gave me a wonderful idea for a new video. I will work on it and hopefully it rings true with people.
The whole "gacha" factor is annoyingly real and should be addressed as well. To think...all these things are coming to light simply because Cryptic decided to remove our fleet marks. Well, Cryptic, in case you didn't know. It's still winter here.
Hey, I use CDF in a lot of my posts, but it really only applies to 3 or 4 people who everyone knows who they are. The term does apply to these people and has from day one.
They're just as bad as me except they don't want to acknowledge that. I don't tell them to "get lost", or "you cannot post" or any other of a thousand things that I have heard time and time again.
There's also another set that will also defend Cryptic to the hilt and belittle or ridicule others who don't agree with their opinion, but when something happens that effects them, they too scream and shout like the rest about injustice. We know these people too.
There's also the sanctimonious ones, the ones who looove to use big words and big posts to show how clever they are and always using "buzz words" to make them sound like they know what they are talking about.
And do you know what, I wouldn't want any of them to change.
In the end, these forums have been better than the game itself and I don't see anything changing except more and more people being unhappy with this great IP being ruined.
Dan,
Adding in FM's in other places is just a small thing of what we are saying here.
The game has become a grind without any real new fun content for a long time now. There are so many bugs and broken promises that have been left that way for years now that just doing the above will not work now.
If only you and the dev team would just take time to make the game stable and more fun without the grinding, that even you have posted before was not fun and we should not have to do, we (aka the customers) would support you and make this the best, most fun, most played, and most profitable game ever!
Please reconsider your direction for the game.
Respectfully,
Zeus
I guess we should be happy you seem to care but... "Why so Cryptic!?"
I hope take us Serious because you trigger game breaking issue with removing fleet marks form daily officer reports. my question is why wanted turn game in wow with all the grinding and reps and marks? You need understand the fact most people you got left wow or other games with grinding maybe more simple solutions would keep game around longer. You may not know it but planet seeds for games death ignoring other issues bugs that been in the game and need be addressed beside issues of fleet marks.
QUOTE=vividh;8178631]Let's just see what happens on Thursday.[/QUOTE]
Sorry tell you but it will be a patch add yet another zen ship to the game and Ignore other issues Oh by the way foundry will be down yet again.
my other issue if going feature a foundry mission can you work with people posted and clean them up spelling and not be punny but make them less cryptic
DELTA RISING FIXS THERE NEVER COMING WHY I'M I WASTING MY TIME ASKING FOR THEM ???
Unbelievable isn't it?
200+ pages on a thread started by dStahl himself, and all we get from him here is a terse note effectively saying 'trust me and shut up'.
Even in the post you quoted, he still takes no responsibility for throwing the valentines day massacre patch onto tribble, generating 75 pages of bug reports, all of which are ignored, the patch is sent live and (now known to be) seriously bugged....and all this just before a 3 day weekend.
Staggeringly short sighted at best, certainly apology worthy, and yet what do we get?
Then you punish the exploiters not the player-base as a whole.
Fair enough.
But you're a smart guy Dan - you're surrounded by smart people making missions using tools developed by smart programmers.
You knew exactly these type of missions could be created with the Foundry when you released it to the STO community. You also (by your own admission above) knew that some people like to exploit.
Given this, I find it incredibly hard to believe that you were taken by surprise when a segment of the player-base started grinding these missions for easy Marks/Dilithium - you've been in the business of making MMOs for how long now exactly?
More or less than you want your players to be able to advance their Fleet bases or earn Dilithium and other rewards without having to grind dull, repetitive content?
Something as time-consuming, costly and controversial as the Fleet Advancement System needs more careful tuning and handling and discussion than just throwing a bunch of Marks at an unrelated mission.
People have invested thousands of hours of their time and thousands of dollars of their money in their Fleets - they're the single biggest sink in the game - don't you think such a contentious issue needs to be handled with exceptional care?
Which again, I posit that you already knew would happen - why not open a dialogue with the entire community before implementing such a rewards system?
No s**t Sherlock.
And that's fine and dandy, just don't TRIBBLE with the wider economy because you'd like to support the Foundry authors.
So why only the Fleet Marks? You can still run those missions and get Dilithium and loot (and I'm sure many people are) - in fact, you can make a 2 -hour Boff-Grinder now that awards more Dilithium than any other mission in the game for the player doing nothing.
Why Fleet Marks? Is it because there's no system to control them they way you do Dilithium refining?
Well *duh*
And we'll be waiting to see what you do.
See this just makes me shake my head - sure, you're never going to make everyone happy but a statement like this just says to me 'you're not gonna like it - any of you' - is that me being pessimistic? Or is it just you being Dan Stahl?
Which is a mistake as I'll explain below.
But Fleet Marks award 50 Fleet Credits per Mark whilst Dilithium - (y'know - the stuff you buy with REAL money) awards 1 Fleet Credit - other consumables award far less.
Now, there's small Fleets out there where the members are swimming in Fleet Credits, there's also large fleets where members struggle to earn FCs because projects get filled so fast.
Which means my options if I don't want to do Fleet Actions, are to put Dilithium in (good one Dan!) or dozens of Doffs and other crappy resources which get me very few Fleet Credits.
Put simply, it's unfair to a segment of your players and it isn't going to work.
"but in the meantime the changes are done in the best interest of the game."
Interesting how they make decisions. How about we make changes with the best interest on the player in mind. After all, that is not how business succeed? Just to give you guys a short lesson in business, the measure of happiness of customer will have an effect on your profit. Happy players = happy customers = more purchases....
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Just a note to ponder on...
Every idea, change, or movement start with just one person!
PWE/Crytpic Stop the FARM, Bring back the FUN!
Zeus