like a fed style phaser array?;)
you just contradicted yourself in your own post. you are playing on the assertion that bigger weapons will equate to more power, while having tried to dismiss it in the same post.
also reinforcing their point about cruisers not needing to return to go home & rearm after every shot, since a cruiser doesnt need to bring "12 of his or her closest friends" in order to match the power of another cruiser without a significant difference in tech development/scientific understanding.
I think you really need to get that shoulder looked at, the chip in it regarding cruiser mistreatment is making you incoherent
I'm not sure how I contradict myself? A powerful energy point defense system could be used in anything that fit its systems. If you want to think of a less powerful system imagine installing MK 1 phasers on a Fleet AC and then try to take down Elite Fleet Peregrines.. clearly you would have a harder time of it. The higher mark weapon systems are better at converting energy to destructive power.
As for cruisers not needing to reload after using 24 Photon Torpedoes... I think you're failing to consider that fact that after 24 photon torpedoes hitting in short intervals the cruiser is unlikely to be doing much of anything at all.
But like I said, in STO NPC combat pets do not behave that way nor are they as powerful, which is a good thing. Star trek and BSG/SW/Wing Commander are different.
This is less about STO but more about future weapons in general, but......How do you know? We've seen in TV episodes a single overloaded hand phaser rock a connie, a HAND phaser. We've seen fighter wings take on groups of cruisers and be expected to do sufficient damage to not be ignored.
You're thinking in 20th century energy to mass ratios. In Star Trek they have mastered energy storage/energy conversion sufficiently that they can have hand held energy weapons of incredible potency, that alone makes all of your arguments invalid. Its not a matter of the energy supply, but rather of the channeling or conversion equipment..AKA, your weapons.
Naturally shuttles/fighters get fewer weapons slots due to their smaller size, but more than size proportionality would lead us to believe thanks to such gear being relatively small. But lets ignore all that, like you yourself said strapping a pair of photon torpedoes to a Peregrine would be more than enough to ruin a cruiser's day, especially if that Peregrine brought along 12 of his or her closest friends! If anything we can all see that in STO fighters are very low power compared to what they could be.
Exactly! They have mastered energy storage/energy conversion.
So the larger the mechanism for that method becomes, using the same principles of its design, the output increases. Therefore a larger ship will have the harder hitting energy weapon. Science. So no, it doesn't make my argument invalid because they have a handheld weapon that utilizes any kind of output. The single instance of the phaser pistol rocking a Connie is later refuted by every episode later featuring weapon exchange on-board ships. Its an outlier.
As for the Photons, it is exactly true.
But you missed what I was saying. Why send out a Peregrine wing, instead of a cruiser?
Today you would do it because aircraft have air superiority, range, speed, power, positioning, precision, and an exit strategy with a high survival percentage.
The Peregrine in Star Trek has none of these things.
It cannot gain air superiority as there is "technically" no ceiling in space.
Have far less range, speed, power, might be capable of more precision, and is only capable of equal positioning. But also with the range of Star Trek Cruisers and their speed, the Peregrines exit strategy and chances of survival are slim.
So you can go small and swarm. Essentially showing little regard for their lives.
Or you can go large and go toe to toe and put them in a tank.
Of course we could then look at shields, most would keep thinking in 20th century power/mass ratios and conclude that a big ship would have stronger shields... I have to ask again, how do you know? In most cases a bigger bubble is harder to maintain than a smaller one, maybe shields work under the same rules, maybe they do not.
In STO NPC combat pets are made to be complementary to the carrier, and not replace its firepower. Which makes sense, STO is not about simulating modern naval warfare. That would be silly, its about playing exciting ships, not sending NPCs to do your job.
I'm going to take your power/mass ratio 20th century style of thinking and replace it with what really should be the standard way of thinking. Common Sense.
I believe that the best way to make something functional is to give it everything it needs.
A 280bhp car, does not need a transmission rated for upwards of 500bhp for example.
Nor would they, if utilizing common sense, place a transmission in a 280bhp car that can only withstand 230bhp.
Each ship is constructed with ample power to fulfill its functions.
The only ship, that I can recall, that ever struggled with this was the Defiant as it was over built to begin with. The Galaxy class never suffered on a day to day basis, never had to choose Life Support and Auxiliary vs Shields. Or Weapons vs Impulse control.
You never saw that kind of dilemma in Star Trek, minus the Defiant. And even that was fairly "rare."
As for bigger ship equals bigger shield. It seems to stand up to everything we have witnessed on screen.
DS9 we see that the newer Defiant is capable of withstanding far more than Miranda's. We also see that ships like the Excelsior have a greater shield output than possibly even the Defiant. Further up the scale we see that pretty much nothing gets thru a Galaxy Class ships shields. (Odyssey and a weapons platform seem to be the only time we see in DS9 any actual hull damage done to a Galaxy.)
I do agree with them filling a complimentary role to the Carrier.
But I don't agree with their existence despite my agreeance +)
What I DO find funny is that in all this you don't bring up the one thing that would doom small weapon delivery platforms with big weapons. Energy point defense systems of great range and power.
We did earlier.
Most choose to ignore the episodes that showcase it claiming tech disparity.
Nevermind that the principle remains the same. *shrug*
I'm not sure how I contradict myself? A powerful energy point defense system could be used in anything that fit its systems. If you want to think of a less powerful system imagine installing MK 1 phasers on a Fleet AC and then try to take down Elite Fleet Peregrines.. clearly you would have a harder time of it. The higher mark weapon systems are better at converting energy to destructive power.
As for cruisers not needing to reload after using 24 Photon Torpedoes... I think you're failing to consider that fact that after 24 photon torpedoes hitting in short intervals the cruiser is unlikely to be doing much of anything at all.
But like I said, in STO NPC combat pets do not behave that way nor are they as powerful, which is a good thing. Star trek and BSG/SW/Wing Commander are different.
I think were he is saying you are contradicting yourself is with that line about 20th century power/mass ratio line.
As for fighters in this game.
Never saw them as a threat. Running a beam boat and FAW.
You toast entire Carrier compliments that way. Ignore them at your own risk sure.
But seeing as FAW was a part of my regular rotation, whether I ignored them or not, they were destroyed.
Skyranger i think you are missing the put about aircraft carriers and trek cruisers. I was equating them in importance. the US has less then a dozen carriers but they form the core of a taskforce or fleet. The Cruiser of Galaxy scale serve the same function. and the core of a fleet. every time we saw fleets a galaxy was the flagship minus Defiant because she was sisko's ship. But the DS9 attack fleet was 2 fed fleets merged. and we saw 4 galaxies so they form the core of the fleets under normal circumstances. and again note that Galaxy AND Sovreign have numerous and large shuttle bays that can easily hold fighters was well. with the ships as manuverable as they are in trek Fighter's don't really have a role in the universe. Brel, Defiant, and Jem Hader bug ship fill that role.
just get the Fleet Support Cruiser Retrofit and pretend it's a galaxy
that's a pretty sweat ship
truth is the galaxy is a bit naff but kinda think if they play with the BOFF layout and even up the console count and +1 to turn it will just become like a lot of the other cruisers.
Exactly! They have mastered energy storage/energy conversion.
So the larger the mechanism for that method becomes, using the same principles of its design, the output increases. Therefore a larger ship will have the harder hitting energy weapon. Science. So no, it doesn't make my argument invalid because they have a handheld weapon that utilizes any kind of output. The single instance of the phaser pistol rocking a Connie is later refuted by every episode later featuring weapon exchange on-board ships. Its an outlier.
In STO they don't use bigger weapons, they just have more of them. Of course that's STO, its never made clear at what point it becomes too inefficient to just increase the conversion.
As for the Photons, it is exactly true.
But you missed what I was saying. Why send out a Peregrine wing, instead of a cruiser?
Today you would do it because aircraft have air superiority, range, speed, power, positioning, precision, and an exit strategy with a high survival percentage.
Because in a battle what you care about is killing your enemies the fastest way possible, not the most cost efficient way?
The Peregrine in Star Trek has none of these things.
It cannot gain air superiority as there is "technically" no ceiling in space.
Have far less range, speed, power, might be capable of more precision, and is only capable of equal positioning. But also with the range of Star Trek Cruisers and their speed, the Peregrines exit strategy and chances of survival are slim.
The Peregrines are warp capable, as to their survival rate and exit strategies we simply don't know. It wouldn't be farfetched to think there was a dedicated non fighting carrier ship we just never saw that stays just outside of battle range and is itself exceeding fast and shielded. We never saw that, but we DID see Peregrine wings be used in combat and everyone expected a certain amount of combat worth from them. Think of them as force multipliers. No one is saying they single handedly win battles against cruiser squadrons, but they are certainly capable of inflicting damage.
So you can go small and swarm. Essentially showing little regard for their lives.
Or you can go large and go toe to toe and put them in a tank.
I'm going to take your power/mass ratio 20th century style of thinking and replace it with what really should be the standard way of thinking. Common Sense.
I believe that the best way to make something functional is to give it everything it needs.
A 280bhp car, does not need a transmission rated for upwards of 500bhp for example.
Nor would they, if utilizing common sense, place a transmission in a 280bhp car that can only withstand 230bhp.
Dude or dudette, we SAW fighters in screen, common sense is no longer a hard and fast rule. We can extrapolate a lot but like I keep saying, we ultimately don't know. We have to assume they exist and are good enough to be combat effective against big ships. We do this because we saw them and they were used as such
I think we're just going in circles now. Pointlessly really because neither of us, or anyone really knows how to measure anything in Trek, given that the mechanics of things seemed to contradict themselves as the plot dictated. Thus, I prefer to stick with what we saw on the screen rather than what we extrapolate when talkign about anything with certainty. Beyond that, STO is NOT like the TV shows. It tries to be close but there are some clear leeways given to its gaming nature. This is NOT A BAD THING.
Of course, what I STILL don't get is why you insist that cruisers are the equivalent of modern carriers? Modern carriers are more or less the equivalent of artillery pieces that chuck their payloads vast distances. Able to hit targets beyond the horizon, way, waaayyy beyond the horizon. STO cruisers on the other hand are very much "charge the front lines and fight it out at CLOSE range" They are very much like sailing ships of the line.
When I say STO carriers are the carriers of STO I'm not referring to their similarity to modern carriers. Why would I compare them? STO's combat has very little to do with modern surface naval doctrines. I f anything most STO carriers resemble Electronic Warfare ships, the addition of fighters to their CC/debuff abilities is to make them more suitable and cool to play with as a PC controlled ship.
Skyranger i think you are missing the put about aircraft carriers and trek cruisers. I was equating them in importance. the US has less then a dozen carriers but they form the core of a taskforce or fleet. The Cruiser of Galaxy scale serve the same function. and the core of a fleet. every time we saw fleets a galaxy was the flagship minus Defiant because she was sisko's ship. But the DS9 attack fleet was 2 fed fleets merged. and we saw 4 galaxies so they form the core of the fleets under normal circumstances. and again note that Galaxy AND Sovreign have numerous and large shuttle bays that can easily hold fighters was well. with the ships as manuverable as they are in trek Fighter's don't really have a role in the universe. Brel, Defiant, and Jem Hader bug ship fill that role.
Ahhh, gotcha. I see what you're saying, but I do disagree with the cruiser's importance in the STO era. Unquestionably, pre Dominion War cruisers were the absolute pinnacle of fed combat capabilities. But the Dominion War made starfleet and the feds that cruisers, while very nice general purpose ships just don't cut it against a more tactically focused enemy. the Borg made them wake up and the Dominion War slapped them around enough to understand that these types of enemies are not a one time thing.
I strongly believe the cruisers we see in STO today can be considered as post Dominion War designs or retrofits. Before that conflict they probably had even less of a tactical focus, Lets look at the Amby, it fits perfectly with what a Pre Dominion War cruiser would be like. Very tough to bring down with a good bit of science. The way the Amby was lost may have even led to the Galaxy being the pure unkillable brick that it is, remember they also had families aboard.
In STO there is no ship that fills a role similar to or as important as the modern aircraft carrier. This is by design, who would lay the other ships if only the "carrier" mattered?
and given that you are blatantly comparing 1701-e era weapons to nx-01 era... il just assume you are tired.
Actually I AM sick now that you mention it. One of those tropical diseases that everyone gets living at the equator and I AM a little drowsy.
But Skoll, I see you in thread after thread arguing about cruisers being the red headed stepchild of STO, and I just don't see it. I levelled and learned to play a cruiser to see if there was any truth to that widely held belief and now have a very spiffy Fleet AC that disproofs it. I think you're in my fleet, get in touch with me dude (or dudette! we're PC here after all) and I'll help you get an Aux2Batt build you'll like. Ideally, a Fleet AC works best for it but any cruiser will benefit from it.
Ahhh, gotcha. I see what you're saying, but I do disagree with the cruiser's importance in the STO era. Unquestionably, pre Dominion War cruisers were the absolute pinnacle of fed combat capabilities. But the Dominion War made starfleet and the feds that cruisers, while very nice general purpose ships just don't cut it against a more tactically focused enemy. the Borg made them wake up and the Dominion War slapped them around enough to understand that these types of enemies are not a one time thing.
I strongly believe the cruisers we see in STO today can be considered as post Dominion War designs or retrofits. Before that conflict they probably had even less of a tactical focus, Lets look at the Amby, it fits perfectly with what a Pre Dominion War cruiser would be like. Very tough to bring down with a good bit of science. The way the Amby was lost may have even led to the Galaxy being the pure unkillable brick that it is, remember they also had families aboard.
In STO there is no ship that fills a role similar to or as important as the modern aircraft carrier. This is by design, who would lay the other ships if only the "carrier" mattered?
Actually I AM sick now that you mention it. One of those tropical diseases that everyone gets living at the equator and I AM a little drowsy.
But Skoll, I see you in thread after thread arguing about cruisers being the red headed stepchild of STO, and I just don't see it. I levelled and learned to play a cruiser to see if there was any truth to that widely held belief and now have a very spiffy Fleet AC that disproofs it. I think you're in my fleet, get in touch with me dude (or dudette! we're PC here after all) and I'll help you get an Aux2Batt build you'll like. Ideally, a Fleet AC works best for it but any cruiser will benefit from it.
Wolf 359 and the early Galaxy losses woke them up. most of the new ships seen in FC are more tacically oriented. Heck the Sovreign proves this. Again small ship will have a limited payloud of torps. A galxy can hold more torps than a Defiant. Also note that during DW most of the ships we saw lost were Mirandas and Excels. By Sto era we should be seeing less of these ships.
Wolf 359 and the early Galaxy losses woke them up. most of the new ships seen in FC are more tacically oriented. Heck the Sovreign proves this. Again small ship will have a limited payloud of torps. A galxy can hold more torps than a Defiant. Also note that during DW most of the ships we saw lost were Mirandas and Excels. By Sto era we should be seeing less of these ships.
What losses?
The Yamato to an Iconian software transmission purpose unknown? Can't count it.
The Odyssey which took surprisingly little damage despite being "unshielded" and took a ship sized torpedo into its deflector dish and warpcore? Can't count that one either.
There are no canon loses of the Galaxy class to enemy weapon fire.
And none during the entire length of the Dominion War.
The Odyssey was the victim of a kamikaze attack and was lost before the start of the Dominion War.
There is no on-screen evidence that says the Sovereign is a more tactically oriented ship.
Nothing.
In fact her combat record is dismal.
She plays no role in the destruction of the Borg Cube. Picard could have been aboard an escape pod and given them the coordinates. The did destroy an unshielded sphere.
Never fired a shot against the Son'a Battleships, had to use the elements to win.
In a straight fight would have lost, if for no other reason than they had Isolytic weapons.
In Nemesis she gets owned. She even runs out of weapon power before making a dent.
The Sovereign isn't what we have dreamed it into being.
Not cool Skyranger. I hope you find yourself getting well sooner, rather than later.
I'm just getting over Walking Pnemonia myself.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
What losses?
The Yamato to an Iconian software transmission purpose unknown? Can't count it.
The Odyssey which took surprisingly little damage despite being "unshielded" and took a ship sized torpedo into its deflector dish and warpcore? Can't count that one either.
There are no canon loses of the Galaxy class to enemy weapon fire.
And none during the entire length of the Dominion War.
The Odyssey was the victim of a kamikaze attack and was lost before the start of the Dominion War.
There is no on-screen evidence that says the Sovereign is a more tactically oriented ship.
Nothing.
In fact her combat record is dismal.
She plays no role in the destruction of the Borg Cube. Picard could have been aboard an escape pod and given them the coordinates. The did destroy an unshielded sphere.
Never fired a shot against the Son'a Battleships, had to use the elements to win.
In a straight fight would have lost, if for no other reason than they had Isolytic weapons.
In Nemesis she gets owned. She even runs out of weapon power before making a dent.
The Sovereign isn't what we have dreamed it into being.
Not cool Skyranger. I hope you find yourself getting well sooner, rather than later.
I'm just getting over Walking Pnemonia myself.
Still in about a decade most of the original Galaxys built were destroyed. that had to make them think. How many other ships class have that type of record. The Sovriegn however has 2 sets of sheilds, Quantum toprs, and is faster, And note E-E went up against the Scimitar which had fire clock, if it wasn't cloacked more damaged would have been done. The galaxy is a godd ship but sadly her intial design left her unprepared for the wars to come. thus you seethe venture refit. and eventually the Gal X
What losses?
The Yamato to an Iconian software transmission purpose unknown? Can't count it.
The Odyssey which took surprisingly little damage despite being "unshielded" and took a ship sized torpedo into its deflector dish and warpcore? Can't count that one either.
There are no canon loses of the Galaxy class to enemy weapon fire.
And none during the entire length of the Dominion War.
The Odyssey was the victim of a kamikaze attack and was lost before the start of the Dominion War.
There is no on-screen evidence that says the Sovereign is a more tactically oriented ship.
Nothing.
In fact her combat record is dismal.
She plays no role in the destruction of the Borg Cube. Picard could have been aboard an escape pod and given them the coordinates. The did destroy an unshielded sphere.
Never fired a shot against the Son'a Battleships, had to use the elements to win.
In a straight fight would have lost, if for no other reason than they had Isolytic weapons.
In Nemesis she gets owned. She even runs out of weapon power before making a dent.
The Sovereign isn't what we have dreamed it into being.
Not cool Skyranger. I hope you find yourself getting well sooner, rather than later.
I'm just getting over Walking Pnemonia myself.
Incorrect.
The script for The Best Of Both Worlds: Part 2 states that J.P. Hanson's flagship was of the Galaxy class. And it was lost. Hanson's last message to Riker was from his vessel's battle bridge, both in the script and on-screen.
So, a Galaxy was lost to enemy fire prior to the arrival of the Dominion.
The script for The Best Of Both Worlds: Part 2 states that J.P. Hanson's flagship was of the Galaxy class. And it was lost. Hanson's last message to Riker was from his vessel's battle bridge, both in the script and on-screen.
So, a Galaxy was lost to enemy fire prior to the arrival of the Dominion.
Nope, he was in an excel. for why show up to the Enterprise in an excel only to switch later. That script is incorrect.
What losses?
The Yamato to an Iconian software transmission purpose unknown? Can't count it.
The Odyssey which took surprisingly little damage despite being "unshielded" and took a ship sized torpedo into its deflector dish and warpcore? Can't count that one either.
There are no canon loses of the Galaxy class to enemy weapon fire.
And none during the entire length of the Dominion War.
The Odyssey was the victim of a kamikaze attack and was lost before the start of the Dominion War.
There is no on-screen evidence that says the Sovereign is a more tactically oriented ship.
Nothing.
In fact her combat record is dismal.
She plays no role in the destruction of the Borg Cube. Picard could have been aboard an escape pod and given them the coordinates. The did destroy an unshielded sphere.
Never fired a shot against the Son'a Battleships, had to use the elements to win.
In a straight fight would have lost, if for no other reason than they had Isolytic weapons.
In Nemesis she gets owned. She even runs out of weapon power before making a dent.
The Sovereign isn't what we have dreamed it into being.
the sovereign makes a splendid excelsior and ambassador replacement thought huh? the sovereign was always a head scratcher. did they intentionally replace the enterprise D with a wholly inferior, though a bit more advanced, ship? because thats what they created.
new more powerful phaser emitters, but no array even half as long as the main arrays on a galaxy. quite a few torpedo launchers, and quantum torpedoes. but none of the launchers can fire more then about 3 of 4 torps before reloading, as seen in nemisis. the additional pre nemisis refit launchers are small and just single shot launchers. that vs the 2 enormous launchers the galaxy had, each capable of firing about 10 torps sequentially a second, with no observed upper limit for capacity before it has to reload.
its smaller to, obviously. less then half the volume of a galaxy. these ships are not in the same weight class, they do not compete at all, its rather silly to compare them.
according to gordie that last torpedoe directly hitting engineering sealed its fate, regardless of the rest of the fight. like the odyssey, it tanked a ton of direct to hull hits. though very small, bops appear to have weapons comparable to the defiant, so a threat to anything. if the enterprise had, i dont know, fired more then a single shot, 3 at most would proboly have done it, it could have blown that bop away easy. but, the script didn't call for the D actually surviving the movie. they had to write the bridge crew completely TRIBBLE, to lode to a bop. but i guess them not acting TRIBBLE that would make the klingons TRIBBLE for picking a fight even if they could bypass the D's shields. regardless, everything about that fight was TRIBBLE, and those 2 perfectly placed torpedoes at the beginning were what killed it.
What losses?
The Yamato to an Iconian software transmission purpose unknown? Can't count it.
The Odyssey which took surprisingly little damage despite being "unshielded" and took a ship sized torpedo into its deflector dish and warpcore? Can't count that one either.
There are no canon loses of the Galaxy class to enemy weapon fire.
And none during the entire length of the Dominion War.
The Odyssey was the victim of a kamikaze attack and was lost before the start of the Dominion War.
There is no on-screen evidence that says the Sovereign is a more tactically oriented ship.
Nothing.
In fact her combat record is dismal.
She plays no role in the destruction of the Borg Cube. Picard could have been aboard an escape pod and given them the coordinates. The did destroy an unshielded sphere.
Never fired a shot against the Son'a Battleships, had to use the elements to win.
In a straight fight would have lost, if for no other reason than they had Isolytic weapons.
In Nemesis she gets owned. She even runs out of weapon power before making a dent.
The Sovereign isn't what we have dreamed it into being.
You do forget the Death of the Enterprise D however and she was about to be destroyed in Yesterday's Enterprise and a Galaxy was lost in Parallels.
However... Yeah... The Sovvy, despite being newer and looking more seriously armored, did not actually have a very glorious career.
I believe Wesley also said that their warp core containment was already dangerously low, even before the parallel Enterprise-D fired the torpedo at it's Borg-scarred counterpart.
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There is no on-screen evidence that says the Sovereign is a more tactically oriented ship.
Nothing.
In fact her combat record is dismal.
She plays no role in the destruction of the Borg Cube. Picard could have been aboard an escape pod and given them the coordinates. The did destroy an unshielded sphere.
Never fired a shot against the Son'a Battleships, had to use the elements to win.
In a straight fight would have lost, if for no other reason than they had Isolytic weapons.
In Nemesis she gets owned. She even runs out of weapon power before making a dent.
The Sovereign isn't what we have dreamed it into being.
The sov was made to fight the borg like the defaint. And by playing no part in the cubes destruction i guess its phaser and quantum torps being shot into the cube was total nonfactor.
About the son'a you willing to go firing all crazy like in a nebula full of explosive gas? Besides they were ordered to go contact starfleet not kill the son'a.
And in nemesis you know the reason it doesnt make a dent is cause the E couldnt SEE the scimitar to shoot it, but it could see the E. Its not surprising it runs out of ammo before making a dent.
Im not saying the E is super powerful. Im just saying your view on those battles seems very clouded. In the end the E is marginally more powerful then a galaxy and its mainly due to its toughness not its firepower.
The sov was made to fight the borg like the defaint. And by playing no part in the cubes destruction i guess its phaser and quantum torps being shot into the cube was total nonfactor.
About the son'a you willing to go firing all crazy like in a nebula full of explosive gas? Besides they were ordered to go contact starfleet not kill the son'a.
And in nemesis you know the reason it doesnt make a dent is cause the E couldnt SEE the scimitar to shoot it, but it could see the E. Its not surprising it runs out of ammo before making a dent.
Im not saying the E is super powerful. Im just saying your view on those battles seems very clouded. In the end the E is marginally more powerful then a galaxy and its mainly due to its toughness not its firepower.
i think its a little naive to think the sovereign class was created in just the time between between wolf 359 and first contact. the galaxy reportedly took 20 years from start to finish to create, the sov proboly took half that long at least. the borg influenced a lot, from tactics and technology, but other then directly leading to the defiant i doubt it was the fundamental influence people assume it was. that goes for all the new classed you see in first contact and later DS9.
the E was outmatched by the persuading sona, they didn't fight, just tried to flee. since they couldn't out run them, they had to get clever
in nemisis, thanks to how great beam arrays are, the scimitar was lit up nearly the whole fight. it was hitting it constantly, with torps too. it would have been real interesting to see how a 2379 spec galaxy would have done vs a scimitar, with its much huger mkXII phaser arrays dealing MUCH more damage per shot, or with the volume of fire those torpedo launchers of hers were capable of. with the erta damage soak, and extra post dominion war hull armor, and a non peace time internal configuration unlike what the enterprise D had, that would not have been such a 1 sided fight
Ent-D lost to a warpcore explosion caused by a conveniently placed torpedo.(And to Riker)
Same thing would take out the Sovereign. I fail to see your point.
If I shoot your ship and it causes your engine to blow up....that means I beat you.
A klingon BOP damaged the ENT-D to the point of destruction.
Thats like saying Luke Skywalker didnt blow up the Death Star it was a chain reaction....caused by a conveniently placed torpedo
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i think its a little naive to think the sovereign class was created in just the time between between wolf 359 and first contact. the galaxy reportedly took 20 years from start to finish to create, the sov proboly took half that long at least. the borg influenced a lot, from tactics and technology, but other then directly leading to the defiant i doubt it was the fundamental influence people assume it was. that goes for all the new classed you see in first contact and later DS9.
the E was outmatched by the persuading sona, they didn't fight, just tried to flee. since they couldn't out run them, they had to get clever
in nemisis, thanks to how great beam arrays are, the scimitar was lit up nearly the whole fight. it was hitting it constantly, with torps too. it would have been real interesting to see how a 2379 spec galaxy would have done vs a scimitar, with its much huger mkXII phaser arrays dealing MUCH more damage per shot, or with the volume of fire those torpedo launchers of hers were capable of. with the erta damage soak, and extra post dominion war hull armor, and a non peace time internal configuration unlike what the enterprise D had, that would not have been such a 1 sided fight
<<When did constrution start for the Enterprise-E?>>
We never addressed this point, but my working assumption was that the E-E
had her keel laid sometime during TNG's last season and was probably going
to be given another name. When the E-D was destroyed, that Sovereign-class
ship was nearing completion and was then christened Enterprise. This same
sort of thing happened during WWII. After the carrier Yorktown was sunk at
Midway, the US Navy decided to rename a carrier then under construction
in honor of the fallen ship.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
i think its a little naive to think the sovereign class was created in just the time between between wolf 359 and first contact. the galaxy reportedly took 20 years from start to finish to create, the sov proboly took half that long at least. the borg influenced a lot, from tactics and technology, but other then directly leading to the defiant i doubt it was the fundamental influence people assume it was. that goes for all the new classed you see in first contact and later DS9.
the E was outmatched by the persuading sona, they didn't fight, just tried to flee. since they couldn't out run them, they had to get clever
in nemisis, thanks to how great beam arrays are, the scimitar was lit up nearly the whole fight. it was hitting it constantly, with torps too. it would have been real interesting to see how a 2379 spec galaxy would have done vs a scimitar, with its much huger mkXII phaser arrays dealing MUCH more damage per shot, or with the volume of fire those torpedo launchers of hers were capable of. with the erta damage soak, and extra post dominion war hull armor, and a non peace time internal configuration unlike what the enterprise D had, that would not have been such a 1 sided fight
Everything I saw says that the sovreign project was a long term research project with the idea if in need the sovreign(tactical orient ship) could be built and launch quickly. And it was quite a few years between Generations and FC. thus you see the uniform change and Fc era ships. And since the E-E isn't the prototype I could see her made in a year.
Still in about a decade most of the original Galaxys built were destroyed. that had to make them think. How many other ships class have that type of record. The Sovriegn however has 2 sets of sheilds, Quantum toprs, and is faster, And note E-E went up against the Scimitar which had fire clock, if it wasn't cloacked more damaged would have been done. The galaxy is a godd ship but sadly her intial design left her unprepared for the wars to come. thus you seethe venture refit. and eventually the Gal X
Name them.
Ent-D Yamato Odyssey
During the Dominion War she had the best kill to death ratio. 0 deaths.
The Sovereign does not have 2 sets of shields that is fan fiction/speculation.
You do forget the Death of the Enterprise D however and she was about to be destroyed in Yesterday's Enterprise and a Galaxy was lost in Parallels.
Haha! I did forget about it in that post. Yesterday's Enterprise we don't see her lose though and in Parallels I'm not really sure you can count that one.
However... Yeah... The Sovvy, despite being newer and looking more seriously armored, did not actually have a very glorious career.
The sov was made to fight the borg like the defaint. And by playing no part in the cubes destruction i guess its phaser and quantum torps being shot into the cube was total nonfactor.
No she wasn't. Find me a canon source that says she was made to fight the Borg.
And no, her shots didn't. The FLEET that she was a part of could have done that without her being there so her contribution is a non factor.
About the son'a you willing to go firing all crazy like in a nebula full of explosive gas? Besides they were ordered to go contact starfleet not kill the son'a.
24 High Power Phaser Banks
6 Quantum Tubes
(Since people here seem to think more automatically equals better/more powerful. Perhaps these numbers will "show" just how undergunned the Sovereign was to the Son'a Battleships.)
Isolytic weapons.
And in nemesis you know the reason it doesnt make a dent is cause the E couldnt SEE the scimitar to shoot it, but it could see the E. Its not surprising it runs out of ammo before making a dent.
Actually it is very surprising that she ran out of ammo and power that quickly.
For a ship that was supposedly "made to fight the Borg" wouldn't you want a ship that could last longer than say... 2 or 3 minutes in a straight up fight?
Or have enough torpedo ammunition to be a threat past 45 some odd torps?
Even when the Scimitar wasn't cloaked the Ent E couldn't do anything to it.
Im not saying the E is super powerful. Im just saying your view on those battles seems very clouded. In the end the E is marginally more powerful then a galaxy and its mainly due to its toughness not its firepower.
And I'm saying that people have let the shiny factor get into their eyes to much.
The ship is impressive, but she is not the Battleship that the Galaxy class is.
Check out her performance in comparison to other ships shown on-screen and using that information you will see that she is out performed in the combat department by the Galaxy.
<<When did constrution start for the Enterprise-E?>>
We never addressed this point, but my working assumption was that the E-E
had her keel laid sometime during TNG's last season and was probably going
to be given another name. When the E-D was destroyed, that Sovereign-class
ship was nearing completion and was then christened Enterprise. This same
sort of thing happened during WWII. After the carrier Yorktown was sunk at
Midway, the US Navy decided to rename a carrier then under construction
in honor of the fallen ship.
Aside from not being canon, you are talking about an assumption of one person.
Even if that person is Moore.
It also seems to ignore the naming rules of Star Fleet in that for some reason or another they name the first of the ships from that class after the class name itself.
So the first Sovereign off the line would have been the USS Sovereign itself.
Aside from not being canon, you are talking about an assumption of one person.
Even if that person is Moore.
It also seems to ignore the naming rules of Star Fleet in that for some reason or another they name the first of the ships from that class after the class name itself.
So the first Sovereign off the line would have been the USS Sovereign itself.
the first ship was the USS Sovereign
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Name them.
Ent-D Yamato Odyssey
During the Dominion War she had the best kill to death ratio. 0 deaths.
The Sovereign does not have 2 sets of shields that is fan fiction/speculation.
No she wasn't. Find me a canon source that says she was made to fight the Borg.
And no, her shots didn't. The FLEET that she was a part of could have done that without her being there so her contribution is a non factor.
24 High Power Phaser Banks
6 Quantum Tubes
(Since people here seem to think more automatically equals better/more powerful. Perhaps these numbers will "show" just how undergunned the Sovereign was to the Son'a Battleships.)
Isolytic weapons.
Actually it is very surprising that she ran out of ammo and power that quickly.
For a ship that was supposedly "made to fight the Borg" wouldn't you want a ship that could last longer than say... 2 or 3 minutes in a straight up fight?
Or have enough torpedo ammunition to be a threat past 45 some odd torps?
Even when the Scimitar wasn't cloaked the Ent E couldn't do anything to it.
And I'm saying that people have let the shiny factor get into their eyes to much.
The ship is impressive, but she is not the Battleship that the Galaxy class is.
Check out her performance in comparison to other ships shown on-screen and using that information you will see that she is out performed in the combat department by the Galaxy.
you are comparing the actions of one ship in a show that ran for 7 seasons against a ship that appeared in 3 terrible to ok movies
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Comments
I think you really need to get that shoulder looked at, the chip in it regarding cruiser mistreatment is making you incoherent
I'm not sure how I contradict myself? A powerful energy point defense system could be used in anything that fit its systems. If you want to think of a less powerful system imagine installing MK 1 phasers on a Fleet AC and then try to take down Elite Fleet Peregrines.. clearly you would have a harder time of it. The higher mark weapon systems are better at converting energy to destructive power.
As for cruisers not needing to reload after using 24 Photon Torpedoes... I think you're failing to consider that fact that after 24 photon torpedoes hitting in short intervals the cruiser is unlikely to be doing much of anything at all.
But like I said, in STO NPC combat pets do not behave that way nor are they as powerful, which is a good thing. Star trek and BSG/SW/Wing Commander are different.
Exactly! They have mastered energy storage/energy conversion.
So the larger the mechanism for that method becomes, using the same principles of its design, the output increases. Therefore a larger ship will have the harder hitting energy weapon. Science. So no, it doesn't make my argument invalid because they have a handheld weapon that utilizes any kind of output. The single instance of the phaser pistol rocking a Connie is later refuted by every episode later featuring weapon exchange on-board ships. Its an outlier.
As for the Photons, it is exactly true.
But you missed what I was saying. Why send out a Peregrine wing, instead of a cruiser?
Today you would do it because aircraft have air superiority, range, speed, power, positioning, precision, and an exit strategy with a high survival percentage.
The Peregrine in Star Trek has none of these things.
It cannot gain air superiority as there is "technically" no ceiling in space.
Have far less range, speed, power, might be capable of more precision, and is only capable of equal positioning. But also with the range of Star Trek Cruisers and their speed, the Peregrines exit strategy and chances of survival are slim.
So you can go small and swarm. Essentially showing little regard for their lives.
Or you can go large and go toe to toe and put them in a tank.
I'm going to take your power/mass ratio 20th century style of thinking and replace it with what really should be the standard way of thinking. Common Sense.
I believe that the best way to make something functional is to give it everything it needs.
A 280bhp car, does not need a transmission rated for upwards of 500bhp for example.
Nor would they, if utilizing common sense, place a transmission in a 280bhp car that can only withstand 230bhp.
Each ship is constructed with ample power to fulfill its functions.
The only ship, that I can recall, that ever struggled with this was the Defiant as it was over built to begin with. The Galaxy class never suffered on a day to day basis, never had to choose Life Support and Auxiliary vs Shields. Or Weapons vs Impulse control.
You never saw that kind of dilemma in Star Trek, minus the Defiant. And even that was fairly "rare."
As for bigger ship equals bigger shield. It seems to stand up to everything we have witnessed on screen.
DS9 we see that the newer Defiant is capable of withstanding far more than Miranda's. We also see that ships like the Excelsior have a greater shield output than possibly even the Defiant. Further up the scale we see that pretty much nothing gets thru a Galaxy Class ships shields. (Odyssey and a weapons platform seem to be the only time we see in DS9 any actual hull damage done to a Galaxy.)
I do agree with them filling a complimentary role to the Carrier.
But I don't agree with their existence despite my agreeance +)
We did earlier.
Most choose to ignore the episodes that showcase it claiming tech disparity.
Nevermind that the principle remains the same. *shrug*
I think were he is saying you are contradicting yourself is with that line about 20th century power/mass ratio line.
As for fighters in this game.
Never saw them as a threat. Running a beam boat and FAW.
You toast entire Carrier compliments that way. Ignore them at your own risk sure.
But seeing as FAW was a part of my regular rotation, whether I ignored them or not, they were destroyed.
And I agree with your last comment +)
that's a pretty sweat ship
truth is the galaxy is a bit naff but kinda think if they play with the BOFF layout and even up the console count and +1 to turn it will just become like a lot of the other cruisers.
but fact is it does deserve some love.
I think we're just going in circles now. Pointlessly really because neither of us, or anyone really knows how to measure anything in Trek, given that the mechanics of things seemed to contradict themselves as the plot dictated. Thus, I prefer to stick with what we saw on the screen rather than what we extrapolate when talkign about anything with certainty. Beyond that, STO is NOT like the TV shows. It tries to be close but there are some clear leeways given to its gaming nature. This is NOT A BAD THING.
Of course, what I STILL don't get is why you insist that cruisers are the equivalent of modern carriers? Modern carriers are more or less the equivalent of artillery pieces that chuck their payloads vast distances. Able to hit targets beyond the horizon, way, waaayyy beyond the horizon. STO cruisers on the other hand are very much "charge the front lines and fight it out at CLOSE range" They are very much like sailing ships of the line.
When I say STO carriers are the carriers of STO I'm not referring to their similarity to modern carriers. Why would I compare them? STO's combat has very little to do with modern surface naval doctrines. I f anything most STO carriers resemble Electronic Warfare ships, the addition of fighters to their CC/debuff abilities is to make them more suitable and cool to play with as a PC controlled ship.
Ahhh, gotcha. I see what you're saying, but I do disagree with the cruiser's importance in the STO era. Unquestionably, pre Dominion War cruisers were the absolute pinnacle of fed combat capabilities. But the Dominion War made starfleet and the feds that cruisers, while very nice general purpose ships just don't cut it against a more tactically focused enemy. the Borg made them wake up and the Dominion War slapped them around enough to understand that these types of enemies are not a one time thing.
I strongly believe the cruisers we see in STO today can be considered as post Dominion War designs or retrofits. Before that conflict they probably had even less of a tactical focus, Lets look at the Amby, it fits perfectly with what a Pre Dominion War cruiser would be like. Very tough to bring down with a good bit of science. The way the Amby was lost may have even led to the Galaxy being the pure unkillable brick that it is, remember they also had families aboard.
In STO there is no ship that fills a role similar to or as important as the modern aircraft carrier. This is by design, who would lay the other ships if only the "carrier" mattered?
Actually I AM sick now that you mention it. One of those tropical diseases that everyone gets living at the equator and I AM a little drowsy.
But Skoll, I see you in thread after thread arguing about cruisers being the red headed stepchild of STO, and I just don't see it. I levelled and learned to play a cruiser to see if there was any truth to that widely held belief and now have a very spiffy Fleet AC that disproofs it. I think you're in my fleet, get in touch with me dude (or dudette! we're PC here after all) and I'll help you get an Aux2Batt build you'll like. Ideally, a Fleet AC works best for it but any cruiser will benefit from it.
Wolf 359 and the early Galaxy losses woke them up. most of the new ships seen in FC are more tacically oriented. Heck the Sovreign proves this. Again small ship will have a limited payloud of torps. A galxy can hold more torps than a Defiant. Also note that during DW most of the ships we saw lost were Mirandas and Excels. By Sto era we should be seeing less of these ships.
What losses?
The Yamato to an Iconian software transmission purpose unknown? Can't count it.
The Odyssey which took surprisingly little damage despite being "unshielded" and took a ship sized torpedo into its deflector dish and warpcore? Can't count that one either.
There are no canon loses of the Galaxy class to enemy weapon fire.
And none during the entire length of the Dominion War.
The Odyssey was the victim of a kamikaze attack and was lost before the start of the Dominion War.
There is no on-screen evidence that says the Sovereign is a more tactically oriented ship.
Nothing.
In fact her combat record is dismal.
She plays no role in the destruction of the Borg Cube. Picard could have been aboard an escape pod and given them the coordinates. The did destroy an unshielded sphere.
Never fired a shot against the Son'a Battleships, had to use the elements to win.
In a straight fight would have lost, if for no other reason than they had Isolytic weapons.
In Nemesis she gets owned. She even runs out of weapon power before making a dent.
The Sovereign isn't what we have dreamed it into being.
Not cool Skyranger. I hope you find yourself getting well sooner, rather than later.
I'm just getting over Walking Pnemonia myself.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Ent-D lost to a warpcore explosion caused by a conveniently placed torpedo.(And to Riker)
Same thing would take out the Sovereign. I fail to see your point.
Still in about a decade most of the original Galaxys built were destroyed. that had to make them think. How many other ships class have that type of record. The Sovriegn however has 2 sets of sheilds, Quantum toprs, and is faster, And note E-E went up against the Scimitar which had fire clock, if it wasn't cloacked more damaged would have been done. The galaxy is a godd ship but sadly her intial design left her unprepared for the wars to come. thus you seethe venture refit. and eventually the Gal X
Incorrect.
The script for The Best Of Both Worlds: Part 2 states that J.P. Hanson's flagship was of the Galaxy class. And it was lost. Hanson's last message to Riker was from his vessel's battle bridge, both in the script and on-screen.
So, a Galaxy was lost to enemy fire prior to the arrival of the Dominion.
Nope, he was in an excel. for why show up to the Enterprise in an excel only to switch later. That script is incorrect.
the sovereign makes a splendid excelsior and ambassador replacement thought huh? the sovereign was always a head scratcher. did they intentionally replace the enterprise D with a wholly inferior, though a bit more advanced, ship? because thats what they created.
new more powerful phaser emitters, but no array even half as long as the main arrays on a galaxy. quite a few torpedo launchers, and quantum torpedoes. but none of the launchers can fire more then about 3 of 4 torps before reloading, as seen in nemisis. the additional pre nemisis refit launchers are small and just single shot launchers. that vs the 2 enormous launchers the galaxy had, each capable of firing about 10 torps sequentially a second, with no observed upper limit for capacity before it has to reload.
its smaller to, obviously. less then half the volume of a galaxy. these ships are not in the same weight class, they do not compete at all, its rather silly to compare them.
according to gordie that last torpedoe directly hitting engineering sealed its fate, regardless of the rest of the fight. like the odyssey, it tanked a ton of direct to hull hits. though very small, bops appear to have weapons comparable to the defiant, so a threat to anything. if the enterprise had, i dont know, fired more then a single shot, 3 at most would proboly have done it, it could have blown that bop away easy. but, the script didn't call for the D actually surviving the movie. they had to write the bridge crew completely TRIBBLE, to lode to a bop. but i guess them not acting TRIBBLE that would make the klingons TRIBBLE for picking a fight even if they could bypass the D's shields. regardless, everything about that fight was TRIBBLE, and those 2 perfectly placed torpedoes at the beginning were what killed it.
You do forget the Death of the Enterprise D however and she was about to be destroyed in Yesterday's Enterprise and a Galaxy was lost in Parallels.
However... Yeah... The Sovvy, despite being newer and looking more seriously armored, did not actually have a very glorious career.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
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The sov was made to fight the borg like the defaint. And by playing no part in the cubes destruction i guess its phaser and quantum torps being shot into the cube was total nonfactor.
About the son'a you willing to go firing all crazy like in a nebula full of explosive gas? Besides they were ordered to go contact starfleet not kill the son'a.
And in nemesis you know the reason it doesnt make a dent is cause the E couldnt SEE the scimitar to shoot it, but it could see the E. Its not surprising it runs out of ammo before making a dent.
Im not saying the E is super powerful. Im just saying your view on those battles seems very clouded. In the end the E is marginally more powerful then a galaxy and its mainly due to its toughness not its firepower.
i think its a little naive to think the sovereign class was created in just the time between between wolf 359 and first contact. the galaxy reportedly took 20 years from start to finish to create, the sov proboly took half that long at least. the borg influenced a lot, from tactics and technology, but other then directly leading to the defiant i doubt it was the fundamental influence people assume it was. that goes for all the new classed you see in first contact and later DS9.
the E was outmatched by the persuading sona, they didn't fight, just tried to flee. since they couldn't out run them, they had to get clever
in nemisis, thanks to how great beam arrays are, the scimitar was lit up nearly the whole fight. it was hitting it constantly, with torps too. it would have been real interesting to see how a 2379 spec galaxy would have done vs a scimitar, with its much huger mkXII phaser arrays dealing MUCH more damage per shot, or with the volume of fire those torpedo launchers of hers were capable of. with the erta damage soak, and extra post dominion war hull armor, and a non peace time internal configuration unlike what the enterprise D had, that would not have been such a 1 sided fight
If I shoot your ship and it causes your engine to blow up....that means I beat you.
A klingon BOP damaged the ENT-D to the point of destruction.
Thats like saying Luke Skywalker didnt blow up the Death Star it was a chain reaction....caused by a conveniently placed torpedo
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
this is from Ron D Moore:
http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/6952/ron87.txt&date=2007-07-27+08:45:16
<<When did constrution start for the Enterprise-E?>>
We never addressed this point, but my working assumption was that the E-E
had her keel laid sometime during TNG's last season and was probably going
to be given another name. When the E-D was destroyed, that Sovereign-class
ship was nearing completion and was then christened Enterprise. This same
sort of thing happened during WWII. After the carrier Yorktown was sunk at
Midway, the US Navy decided to rename a carrier then under construction
in honor of the fallen ship.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Everything I saw says that the sovreign project was a long term research project with the idea if in need the sovreign(tactical orient ship) could be built and launch quickly. And it was quite a few years between Generations and FC. thus you see the uniform change and Fc era ships. And since the E-E isn't the prototype I could see her made in a year.
Name them.
Ent-D Yamato Odyssey
During the Dominion War she had the best kill to death ratio. 0 deaths.
The Sovereign does not have 2 sets of shields that is fan fiction/speculation.
No she wasn't. Find me a canon source that says she was made to fight the Borg.
And no, her shots didn't. The FLEET that she was a part of could have done that without her being there so her contribution is a non factor.
24 High Power Phaser Banks
6 Quantum Tubes
(Since people here seem to think more automatically equals better/more powerful. Perhaps these numbers will "show" just how undergunned the Sovereign was to the Son'a Battleships.)
Isolytic weapons.
Actually it is very surprising that she ran out of ammo and power that quickly.
For a ship that was supposedly "made to fight the Borg" wouldn't you want a ship that could last longer than say... 2 or 3 minutes in a straight up fight?
Or have enough torpedo ammunition to be a threat past 45 some odd torps?
Even when the Scimitar wasn't cloaked the Ent E couldn't do anything to it.
And I'm saying that people have let the shiny factor get into their eyes to much.
The ship is impressive, but she is not the Battleship that the Galaxy class is.
Check out her performance in comparison to other ships shown on-screen and using that information you will see that she is out performed in the combat department by the Galaxy.
Aside from not being canon, you are talking about an assumption of one person.
Even if that person is Moore.
It also seems to ignore the naming rules of Star Fleet in that for some reason or another they name the first of the ships from that class after the class name itself.
So the first Sovereign off the line would have been the USS Sovereign itself.
the first ship was the USS Sovereign
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
you are comparing the actions of one ship in a show that ran for 7 seasons against a ship that appeared in 3 terrible to ok movies
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.