This was originally an edit to my previous message, but timing ruined the continuity... lets try it like this instead
Edit: Playing the Devil's advocate, the counter response is that for 90% of content, a heals cruiser will tank perfectly well enough and have heals to fall back on. Again we run into a content issue that is unrelated to the ship herself, and any other tank ship in the game faces the same issue. Give me tankable content and I'll show you a sudden rush to eng cruisers so fast that your head will spin. Make it so you need to interact with a dialog for X seconds before you cap in capture and hold and suddenly eng pure tanks get a role (Hard to CC a full aux2damp and separated Gal-R, hard to kill it, keeps interrupting your cap, for a PvP example) Had my best ever Fedside run of Starbase Blockade in my pure tank Gal-r yesterday, because between my threat and manuverability I could cover so much of things myself the rest of the pug could just leave me be on one side, and I could get to the otherside to help when I did get some downtime. (KDF I've done 23/24 and similar in pugs back when it first game out... Back in the day the one benefit of being KDF was the average skill level was higher. We were pugging that event into the 20's on the first day... most feds still don't tac team the frieghters... sorry... I get chatty) HOE is a ton easier with a mitigation tank. Any group where I'm helping newer players get a grip on the game starts to become possible with me tanking (Yeah, I could take my Atrox and solo the place, but then they aren't learning a damned thing) Give me more content that tanking is good for, and poof, like magic, the problem rights itself.
And, if we ever get a level cap increase/gear reset/put everybody back to how things are like as a fresh VA, there will be a resurgence of tanks like you wouldn't beilive. Half the reason people don't appreciate tanks currently is because power creep has made us all gods. Some people forget. They are in for a rude awakening if they think when things reset they will want to be taking all those hits in their escorts with blue gear...
The better I'm tanking, the less I need to heal... If I'm making large percentages of damage just never exist in the first place, I don't have to heal it.... That is kinda the point... and it works surprisingly well when you give it a chance.
And a tac cruiser does not tank just as well. They may tank well enough, but they aren't going to tank at the same level. And their damage mitigation does not even come close. I suspect you meant to say damage.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
You're argument is the Galaxy is fine well then bringing tier 3 ships into ESTFs is fine too.
That's the one of the worst strawman arguments I've heard about the Gal-R. The Galaxy-Refits are not some leveling ships that are easily outpaced; they're, along with the Fleet Version, true end-game ships, but they're tanks. They sit there and mop up and mitigate damage so other ships don't have to take it.
It's just that in the current version of the game, PvE Tanking is a joke. Even PvE Crowd control is questionable over an extra damage dealer is some cases. ESTFs aren't about the traditional Tank-Damage-Healing triangle right now; they're DPS races. If you can bring a combined 30-40K DPS into a ESTF, then there's no chance that you won't just breeze through it and get the bonus, unless someone on your team is an idiot. There's no reason to tank when there's only a light penalty for dying, especially when most damage ships can breeze through practically every major ESTF boss. The only PvE fight in the entire game right now where tanking is even marginally helpful is the Voth Dreadnought in The Breach, and even he's easily brought down with careful maneuvering and range management.
As for PvP Tanking in a Galaxy-R, or really anything for that matter, forget about it. Either you're not powerful enough to stand up to the enemy team or you're so tough that the enemy team doesn't target you. In PvP, there are only two roles: Damage and Healer, because a Tank is not only worthless to teamplay, it's a liability to have one on your team because you're gimping either your team's optimal maximum damage per second or optimal maximum healing per sec.
Actual Join Date: Dec 2009 (Yes, that's pre-launch)
If the STF borg had 10X the shields and 10X their hull and used more special abilitys there might be a reason to have a Tank ship
Damage from the team is so High and defense among the damage dealers is so high no healer or even a tank is not needed and not required
I tank the final cube at infected Space Elite just fine in my escort ( as do many others
So the Galaxy is really a useless ship
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
A level cap increase without a gear reset would be awkward at best. And IIRC they say they don't plan on obsolescing our ships, gear is still up in the air.
And even if they don't give us new gear right away, with a level cap increase, they could just make it so our fancy elite fleet gear feels like blues do against current mobs. Essentialy a gear reset, as it serves the same purpose. If the mobs are so tough that we feel like we are in blue gear, we don't need to actually be in blue gear.
And if you think just because they don't fully reset gear at the exact same time they increase the level cap, don't for a hot second think that they won't release increased gear soon after. They keep releasing new gear even without a level cap increase.
It would be no big trick to set us all back to old endgame with us in our fancy gear, were the mobs so tough it felt right again.
Edit: Too many of you either forget or were never around for the days when we were actually all at the level that ESTF was tuned for. They really did used to be hard... If we were at that level again this conversation wouldn't be happening, or would be a lot less one sided for sure. My memory is not so short.
Edit2: Can you imagine the revenue from people opening boxes to get new level 60 versions of their fancy dual proc weapons? Can you imagine PWE *NOT* making it an incentive to deck out in new gear? Yeah, me either...
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Actually, come to think of it, managing it in that way would likely be the smoothest level cap transition in the history of MMO.
Designing season X at a level that has no new gear or only thematic/utility sidegrades for something to work for, but is tuned around still using current gear at the new level cap until the next season comes out, and then introducing stronger gear in season X+1 would make the whole transition much less of a shock and would allow casual players to keep up a bit better with us hardcores that would be dripping in new gear 3 weeks in...
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
canon 'fact' have nothing to do with the in game facts ive been talking about. what you think of a ship should have next to no impact on how you play it. when your in a match, your concentration on staying alive and using the tools you have on hand to the greatest effect, not daydreaming about how much i like the ship. if your that unfocused your not, in the zone, and your not going to do well.
Thats fine, I was thinking you might have been talking about both "facts" in regards to the game.
So, does this mean is that all we want to do is to make the Galaxy-class special? That it can do something better than any of the other ships (aside "sucking", just to get that out of the way)?
Member since November 2009... I think. (UFP) Ragnar
If there is a level cap increase it would not be resetting everyone's gear to blue or lower stats, there will be no higher gear than Mk XII, the level cap will most likely take the form of a new set of missions and STFs whereby you as a full fleet Admiral will command an additional two ships with their BOFF powers.
Actually, they've already done a "reset" of sorts to gear on the day that they introduced the Fleet gear. Very rare gear is no longer the best and it and every type below it has dropped down on the food change. It wasn't a direct alteration, but a direct causation on gears effectiveness in comparison to other gear.
So, does this mean is that all we want to do is to make the Galaxy-class special? That it can do something better than any of the other ships (aside "sucking", just to get that out of the way)?
I would like to see it "special" in the terms of an improvement of engineering skills and consoles effectiveness in relation to the other two trades. Because this ship has the most in both engineer item properties, it would help in making it special. Its not the "easiest" fix, but would be the most rewarding in the long run, giving players and dev's more options in ship layout design.
I think this is digressing somewhat from the core of your argument, the idea of a level cap increase is irrelevant to the main thrust of this thread. IF there is a level cap rise and IF they begin to introduce Mk XIII gear then the boosts provided by TAC consoles will be even higher for ships with more TAC consoles than a Galaxy, i.e. just about every ship in the game (% of Base), so our beloved Galaxy would be even worse off than it is now, not better off.
Thats exactly why engineering needs some love in space.
I would like to see it "special" in the terms of an improvement of engineering skills and consoles effectiveness in relation to the other two trades. Because this ship has the most in both engineer item properties, it would help in making it special. Its not the "easiest" fix, but would be the most rewarding in the long run, giving players and dev's more options in ship layout design.
So, with D'Angelo's mentioning of a skill revamp coming up, could that potentially fix the Galaxy's situation?
Member since November 2009... I think. (UFP) Ragnar
So, with D'Angelo's mentioning of a skill revamp coming up, could that potentially fix the Galaxy's situation?
I guess that would depend on how the dev's do it. When it comes down do it people generally avoid an engineering heavy ship, but don't seem to mind tactical or science heavy ships. Thats a problem in the current skill/ability development, not in the fact that a ship has the most engineer abilities and consoles.
So, does this mean is that all we want to do is to make the Galaxy-class special? That it can do something better than any of the other ships (aside "sucking", just to get that out of the way)?
Eh, I wouldn't call it 'special', I'd say what most of us wants is for the Galaxy class to at least have a niche, something about which noone can say "the Galaxy does it well, but X/Y is way better".
At the risk of sounding weird, I'm going to be brutally honest here - I really love this ship, but not just because I grew up with and loved TNG, but because when I talk about my playstyle in STO this ship is the perfect one on paper. I like being the tank and I like commanding a ship that could be set up to be virtually indestructible. I find much more enjoyment in keeping my vessel alive at all times than dishing out more raw DPS. I also like slow moving ships.
I also do love what it represents and the ideals and values she was intended to portray in TNG.
Now this may be extremely weird to some, but even the part of the Galaxy somewhat lacking in the DPS department plays well for me because I like longer, more Star Trek like battles rather than wrooming and zooming around with insane amounts of raw firepower. If I wanted wroom-zoom, I'd go over to SW:TOR to play their Galactic Starfighter.
When I take the Galaxy against enemies, it takes more time to wear them down and it feels like something that would go on in the shows, so I kinda' like it.
My main Galaxy is a work of art, as far as a Galaxy class can go. It can be set up to dish out a lot of DPS and often people were suprised by her contribution to a team. Just don't ask me to calculate how much time, effort, $ and in-game resources it took me to get there. Not that I regret it. I loved doing it, that's one more reason I like the Galaxy - in a game that lately tends to be a bit repetitive and boring, it's a breath of freshness trying to figure out and tweak builds, set goals and play around with setups so you can make use of one of the 'underdog' ships.
But the sad fact remains that when I take out all of that and put it on my Excelsior, I get better results.
So what's my issue then, one might ask? First of all - roles. If this ship is suposed to be somekind of an embodiment of the uber tank, then let's have a purpose for tanks in the game. I don't mind taking mine everywhere and I do enjoy it a lot, but we all know how most people feel about a Galaxy in their team - a liability or sth. that will prolongue the STF. For once, I'd like to hear "Oh cool, a Galaxy class - you grab the attention of that cube and deal with it while we clear up the rest" rather than "Ewww a Galaxy class, now everyone will have to work extra hard to compensate". Secondly - Engineering skills. We need skill aditions to the engineering department as well as some improvements and adjustments so they won't trip one over the other.
I might be going on a limb here and it may be just me, but I think a lot of us have given up on Cryptic being capable or even interested in fixing those elementary game mechanics. At least I feel that way. That's why many of us try to at least promote and work for the 'easy route' of at least slightly improving the ship with uni.ens.boff or tweaks to console slots, in hopes that this might actually get done as oposed to more crucial things that have been broken a long time ago and noone is even talking about fixing them.
So what's my issue then, one might ask? First of all - roles. If this ship is suposed to be somekind of an embodiment of the uber tank, then let's have a purpose for tanks in the game. I don't mind taking mine everywhere and I do enjoy it a lot, but we all know how most people feel about a Galaxy in their team - a liability or sth. that will prolongue the STF. For once, I'd like to hear "Oh cool, a Galaxy class - you grab the attention of that cube and deal with it while we clear up the rest" rather than "Ewww a Galaxy class, now everyone will have to work extra hard to compensate". Secondly - Engineering skills. We need skill aditions to the engineering department as well as some improvements and adjustments so they won't trip one over the other.
A revamp of engineering skills could most certainly make any of the real arguments against a Gal-R vanish in a puff of smoke. It won't stop people who think only DPS matters from saying it isn't enough, nothing will appease those people.
And I realized how silly I have been here recently. I'm fighting an argument that the dev's already answered with fleet ships. They could have given her a 3rd tac console or a uni slot. They didn't. Because the Galaxy is not a tactical vessel and she doesn't need a universal slot.
And with the experience I've been getting, the state of engineering skills aren't as bad as they first seem on the surface at all. You could leave the skills just exactly how they are now, write some content that is tank friendly and she more than shines. She just never gets any serious play by people who are willing to push her to the boundaries, because her stigma is so great and people are so closed minded.
Hate on her all you want, but arguments full of hyperbole, non-truths, and accusations made by people who obviously haven't even really tried it for themselves aren't convincing.
Do what you want with the ship, argue about it night and day, give her a scimmy layout for all I care. I got the knowledge I was seeking. It won't be the first time I knew something others didn't, and it certainly won't be the last.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
And there's nothing wrong with it to the person's post above me.
If you're more into RP aspect that's great and can be awesome fun. Some people even build their ships according to what they had and used in canon.
<<<<<<< Some people!
Nothing but phaser/quantum combo for my Starfleet ships. Even the Galaxy. I know I'd do much better with Romulan plasma, but that just doesn't do it for me.
Also no Borg TRIBBLE on my ships. :P Am I undermining myself? Probably, but I tend to perceive those things as giving myself challenges to work around and still do good.
The min/maxer in me can't help but have 2 builds. One that is canon for fun, and one that is actually min/maxed.
The new Hirogen doff that lets you use ramming speed and not take damage is the most recent addition to my phaser/photon Galaxy build, as I am a Betazoid sci flying a Galaxy, I need to be able to ram things :cool:
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Comments
We are the few, the proud, the Galaxy fan.
We all want the same thing, we just disagree what it will take to get us there.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
If you aren't utilizing your maneuverability as a healer, you are doing it wrong.
And a heal cruiser most empirically does not tank better then a pure tank cruiser. You aren't factoring in the power of damage mitigation.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Edit: Playing the Devil's advocate, the counter response is that for 90% of content, a heals cruiser will tank perfectly well enough and have heals to fall back on. Again we run into a content issue that is unrelated to the ship herself, and any other tank ship in the game faces the same issue. Give me tankable content and I'll show you a sudden rush to eng cruisers so fast that your head will spin. Make it so you need to interact with a dialog for X seconds before you cap in capture and hold and suddenly eng pure tanks get a role (Hard to CC a full aux2damp and separated Gal-R, hard to kill it, keeps interrupting your cap, for a PvP example) Had my best ever Fedside run of Starbase Blockade in my pure tank Gal-r yesterday, because between my threat and manuverability I could cover so much of things myself the rest of the pug could just leave me be on one side, and I could get to the otherside to help when I did get some downtime. (KDF I've done 23/24 and similar in pugs back when it first game out... Back in the day the one benefit of being KDF was the average skill level was higher. We were pugging that event into the 20's on the first day... most feds still don't tac team the frieghters... sorry... I get chatty) HOE is a ton easier with a mitigation tank. Any group where I'm helping newer players get a grip on the game starts to become possible with me tanking (Yeah, I could take my Atrox and solo the place, but then they aren't learning a damned thing) Give me more content that tanking is good for, and poof, like magic, the problem rights itself.
And, if we ever get a level cap increase/gear reset/put everybody back to how things are like as a fresh VA, there will be a resurgence of tanks like you wouldn't beilive. Half the reason people don't appreciate tanks currently is because power creep has made us all gods. Some people forget. They are in for a rude awakening if they think when things reset they will want to be taking all those hits in their escorts with blue gear...
The better I'm tanking, the less I need to heal... If I'm making large percentages of damage just never exist in the first place, I don't have to heal it.... That is kinda the point... and it works surprisingly well when you give it a chance.
And a tac cruiser does not tank just as well. They may tank well enough, but they aren't going to tank at the same level. And their damage mitigation does not even come close. I suspect you meant to say damage.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
That's the one of the worst strawman arguments I've heard about the Gal-R. The Galaxy-Refits are not some leveling ships that are easily outpaced; they're, along with the Fleet Version, true end-game ships, but they're tanks. They sit there and mop up and mitigate damage so other ships don't have to take it.
It's just that in the current version of the game, PvE Tanking is a joke. Even PvE Crowd control is questionable over an extra damage dealer is some cases. ESTFs aren't about the traditional Tank-Damage-Healing triangle right now; they're DPS races. If you can bring a combined 30-40K DPS into a ESTF, then there's no chance that you won't just breeze through it and get the bonus, unless someone on your team is an idiot. There's no reason to tank when there's only a light penalty for dying, especially when most damage ships can breeze through practically every major ESTF boss. The only PvE fight in the entire game right now where tanking is even marginally helpful is the Voth Dreadnought in The Breach, and even he's easily brought down with careful maneuvering and range management.
As for PvP Tanking in a Galaxy-R, or really anything for that matter, forget about it. Either you're not powerful enough to stand up to the enemy team or you're so tough that the enemy team doesn't target you. In PvP, there are only two roles: Damage and Healer, because a Tank is not only worthless to teamplay, it's a liability to have one on your team because you're gimping either your team's optimal maximum damage per second or optimal maximum healing per sec.
Damage from the team is so High and defense among the damage dealers is so high no healer or even a tank is not needed and not required
I tank the final cube at infected Space Elite just fine in my escort
So the Galaxy is really a useless ship
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
And even if they don't give us new gear right away, with a level cap increase, they could just make it so our fancy elite fleet gear feels like blues do against current mobs. Essentialy a gear reset, as it serves the same purpose. If the mobs are so tough that we feel like we are in blue gear, we don't need to actually be in blue gear.
And if you think just because they don't fully reset gear at the exact same time they increase the level cap, don't for a hot second think that they won't release increased gear soon after. They keep releasing new gear even without a level cap increase.
It would be no big trick to set us all back to old endgame with us in our fancy gear, were the mobs so tough it felt right again.
Edit: Too many of you either forget or were never around for the days when we were actually all at the level that ESTF was tuned for. They really did used to be hard... If we were at that level again this conversation wouldn't be happening, or would be a lot less one sided for sure. My memory is not so short.
Edit2: Can you imagine the revenue from people opening boxes to get new level 60 versions of their fancy dual proc weapons? Can you imagine PWE *NOT* making it an incentive to deck out in new gear? Yeah, me either...
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Designing season X at a level that has no new gear or only thematic/utility sidegrades for something to work for, but is tuned around still using current gear at the new level cap until the next season comes out, and then introducing stronger gear in season X+1 would make the whole transition much less of a shock and would allow casual players to keep up a bit better with us hardcores that would be dripping in new gear 3 weeks in...
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Thats fine, I was thinking you might have been talking about both "facts" in regards to the game.
So, does this mean is that all we want to do is to make the Galaxy-class special? That it can do something better than any of the other ships (aside "sucking", just to get that out of the way)?
(UFP) Ragnar
Actually, they've already done a "reset" of sorts to gear on the day that they introduced the Fleet gear. Very rare gear is no longer the best and it and every type below it has dropped down on the food change. It wasn't a direct alteration, but a direct causation on gears effectiveness in comparison to other gear.
I would like to see it "special" in the terms of an improvement of engineering skills and consoles effectiveness in relation to the other two trades. Because this ship has the most in both engineer item properties, it would help in making it special. Its not the "easiest" fix, but would be the most rewarding in the long run, giving players and dev's more options in ship layout design.
Thats exactly why engineering needs some love in space.
So, with D'Angelo's mentioning of a skill revamp coming up, could that potentially fix the Galaxy's situation?
(UFP) Ragnar
I guess that would depend on how the dev's do it. When it comes down do it people generally avoid an engineering heavy ship, but don't seem to mind tactical or science heavy ships. Thats a problem in the current skill/ability development, not in the fact that a ship has the most engineer abilities and consoles.
Eh, I wouldn't call it 'special', I'd say what most of us wants is for the Galaxy class to at least have a niche, something about which noone can say "the Galaxy does it well, but X/Y is way better".
At the risk of sounding weird, I'm going to be brutally honest here - I really love this ship, but not just because I grew up with and loved TNG, but because when I talk about my playstyle in STO this ship is the perfect one on paper. I like being the tank and I like commanding a ship that could be set up to be virtually indestructible. I find much more enjoyment in keeping my vessel alive at all times than dishing out more raw DPS. I also like slow moving ships.
I also do love what it represents and the ideals and values she was intended to portray in TNG.
Now this may be extremely weird to some, but even the part of the Galaxy somewhat lacking in the DPS department plays well for me because I like longer, more Star Trek like battles rather than wrooming and zooming around with insane amounts of raw firepower. If I wanted wroom-zoom, I'd go over to SW:TOR to play their Galactic Starfighter.
When I take the Galaxy against enemies, it takes more time to wear them down and it feels like something that would go on in the shows, so I kinda' like it.
My main Galaxy is a work of art, as far as a Galaxy class can go. It can be set up to dish out a lot of DPS and often people were suprised by her contribution to a team. Just don't ask me to calculate how much time, effort, $ and in-game resources it took me to get there. Not that I regret it. I loved doing it, that's one more reason I like the Galaxy - in a game that lately tends to be a bit repetitive and boring, it's a breath of freshness trying to figure out and tweak builds, set goals and play around with setups so you can make use of one of the 'underdog' ships.
But the sad fact remains that when I take out all of that and put it on my Excelsior, I get better results.
So what's my issue then, one might ask?
First of all - roles. If this ship is suposed to be somekind of an embodiment of the uber tank, then let's have a purpose for tanks in the game. I don't mind taking mine everywhere and I do enjoy it a lot, but we all know how most people feel about a Galaxy in their team - a liability or sth. that will prolongue the STF. For once, I'd like to hear "Oh cool, a Galaxy class - you grab the attention of that cube and deal with it while we clear up the rest" rather than "Ewww a Galaxy class, now everyone will have to work extra hard to compensate".
Secondly - Engineering skills. We need skill aditions to the engineering department as well as some improvements and adjustments so they won't trip one over the other.
I might be going on a limb here and it may be just me, but I think a lot of us have given up on Cryptic being capable or even interested in fixing those elementary game mechanics. At least I feel that way. That's why many of us try to at least promote and work for the 'easy route' of at least slightly improving the ship with uni.ens.boff or tweaks to console slots, in hopes that this might actually get done as oposed to more crucial things that have been broken a long time ago and noone is even talking about fixing them.
Agreed
/10chars
And I realized how silly I have been here recently. I'm fighting an argument that the dev's already answered with fleet ships. They could have given her a 3rd tac console or a uni slot. They didn't. Because the Galaxy is not a tactical vessel and she doesn't need a universal slot.
And with the experience I've been getting, the state of engineering skills aren't as bad as they first seem on the surface at all. You could leave the skills just exactly how they are now, write some content that is tank friendly and she more than shines. She just never gets any serious play by people who are willing to push her to the boundaries, because her stigma is so great and people are so closed minded.
Hate on her all you want, but arguments full of hyperbole, non-truths, and accusations made by people who obviously haven't even really tried it for themselves aren't convincing.
Do what you want with the ship, argue about it night and day, give her a scimmy layout for all I care. I got the knowledge I was seeking. It won't be the first time I knew something others didn't, and it certainly won't be the last.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
<<<<<<< Some people!
Nothing but phaser/quantum combo for my Starfleet ships. Even the Galaxy. I know I'd do much better with Romulan plasma, but that just doesn't do it for me.
Also no Borg TRIBBLE on my ships. :P Am I undermining myself? Probably, but I tend to perceive those things as giving myself challenges to work around and still do good.
The min/maxer in me can't help but have 2 builds. One that is canon for fun, and one that is actually min/maxed.
The new Hirogen doff that lets you use ramming speed and not take damage is the most recent addition to my phaser/photon Galaxy build, as I am a Betazoid sci flying a Galaxy, I need to be able to ram things :cool:
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard