LOL no way was our fault that was 2 days before xD but was nice fly with all of you and be on the events , also was really cool see a masive fleet of galaxy's in orbit of qonos i wish some one has recorder that
man, i am sorry but an event of such a level of awesomeness in the awesometers will alway produce aftershock, and that the server who paid the price:D
on an other note i am sad i wasn't there with galaxy around qonos.
this event was really good, i hope there will be more, not just for annyversary thread.
beside since cryptic will soon make some OP version of all galaxy in the game this tread will die soon anyway:rolleyes:
starbase defense with only galaxy was epic! a real federation fleet!!!
even with some miranda it would be awesome.
Would be hard to do in another ship, Odyssey or Bort non-withstanding... start to run out of doff space. I need no technicians or damage control engineers.
And that is just the maiden voyage. I need to spend some time and see what I can do to optimize it.
Edit: Just had a 9.6k KASE and took the Scimmy out fast because my boarding parties dropped her shields... Not a bad run for the "worst ship in the game." My 18.6k Atrox only does like 11k in KASE due to timing.
Edit2: Running into problems when I run out of crew... boarding parties won't fire... Switching to Adapted MACO for the 2pc... We'll see if that works out. I have a nurse as well, and I can try 2pc adapted+jem shield... bah I hate that shield... Testing to do hehe..
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
mine and many in my fleet feel different about it, i stay with it for 2 week, and that was very long at that time, because i was very happy to have a galaxy at tiers 5 at last, but even if i wasn't able to explain it at the time, it really feel like a downgrade.
so, in the end i regretfully move to the assault cruiser and never look back.
and i remember not being the same, after the "euphoria" of the novelty, not much people was flying a galaxy retrofit in sector space, just 2 week after the release.
so either everyone just hate the galaxy, or it was really bad.
Well, with every product deserves the caveat... "Your actual performance may vary...", might have been play style and several other factors. Despite your fleets opinions back then, I beg to differ, and all of our opinions are just that... opinions.
better at what? the difference in turn that the saucer give and the +10 to weapons give the retrofit more firepower, but it is negligeable in comparison to the survivabilty difference.
the galaxy was already less tanky with the saucer, without it you loose -5shield power -5 engine -5 auxiliary power, -5% shield hp and -15% hull hp and crew is set to 100.
at that time the retrofit got the same hull capacity than an assault cruiser IF you specced it correctly ( you have to spend skill in star cruiser at that time if i remember correctly ).
the trade that separation console give is not in favor of the galaxy, especially at that time.
Well, just as today, crew barely had an effect on the game. The only real loss powerwise was the shield power, a los of 5 engine power was more than made up for by the seperation and you only has a lt sci, so the 5 aux loss was only minimal. Using DBB/ torps and turrets back then more than made up the difference between it and the Star Cruiser.
it is not just a "well placed shot", it could be used as a finisher or in the beguining of the fight, and continue to be used to pressure the adversary at critical time in a way that even bfaw can't do, so let not speak about just normal beam firing.
but it is also very dependant of what you want to do with your cruiser.
you use an engi with your exelsior, so i can see why it seem "useless" to you, this combination is not the best to use BO effectively to beguin with.
I use an Engi' in an Excel', an Engi' in a Gal-x, A sci' in a Nebula, a Tac in an Avenger and another Engi in a Mogai refit and a Tac in the Klingon Vet' Ship. I have used a Gal-R on both Engi and Tac toons and my opinion holds for all of those beam using vessels, not just the Excel' or the Gal-R/X.
if you play your cruiser like a healer and/or a support ship, bo is indeed not the best choice available because it would not make sense with the role you choose and the captain abilities could not give you the best out of it anyway.
and an engi in an exelsior is not going to be a dps king in pvp, so it not like choosing beam overload is a smart choice with that combination.
but that don't mean that bo is bad, it just mean that is not the best choice with you playstyle descision.
a tactical cruiser that want to do real pressure, and also kill people on it own will need at least 1 bo power to be a real threat ( in my opinion ), the best is having 1 bfaw and 1 bo at least.
the downside of the abilitie are an intended balanced measure, if you remove of reduced them to make bo more apealing to an engie cruiser it would make all the other tactical ship that use it ( and especially escort ) even more OP.
I also look at BO in terms of the "Tac" cruisers and Sci-ships that I use too. Its especially a PITA for my Nebula.
so, using bo is not a bad thing on it own, it is choosing ship and captain abilities that are at the opposite in nature of the intended purpose of what bo is supposed to do that is bad.
so in a way you are right, but it is valid only with you choice of gameplay and is not due to a bad "tune" of BO.
for once this have nothing to do with the fact that english is not my primary language.
vaper is not something that i have invented.
if you really did pvp as you pretend, this is a term that you would known by now.
so let me explain it to you.
So because I don't know some quasi-LOL/MMO speak term means that I don't PvP? On what planet does that even remotely make sense on? Also, calling me a liar isn't really going to earn you any points in the discussion. Did you ever think that maybe the people I chat with don't use that term?
I guess I'm just not as cool because I don't have around the PvP chat channel, smoking ECigs and trying to look up the RP'ing female Catarians skill at DS9... my loss.
before they use to be the " alpha striker" people that are able to kill you in one pass in about 3 to 8 second, but if you have experience you were still able to counter them with your reflexes and abilities.
since LOR came out, there is a new type of " alpha striker" that will kill you in about 0.5 second with full shield and hull denying you the option to counter them.
vaper : ppl who kill veteran pvp player under a sec without giving the target the time to react
this is due to the romulan abilitie ( battle cloak and crit bo in addition to crit console )
it just seem like these people vaporized you, so people in the pvp comunity call them " vaper"
if you got 60% shield and 80% hull and are engage with an other player, a vaper will kill you ( even with resist power ).
if you have 100% shield and hull, are alone, a vaper have still a great chance to kill you even if you known that the guy is comming.
only way to survice is anticipation, when you heard decloaking, use TT, evasive maneuver, epts and brace for impact ( in that order )
rsp will not save you ( it take a little time for rsp to bring incoming damage into a shield, so the time he do that, you will be dead ).
mini is a well known vaper, but it is not the best ( no offense mini )
zenith nader is better and will give you a good idea, if you want to test it out just go to kerrat and remain visible.
I'd just like to say that while it is true however limited there are builds that are viable. You can do pve and even run STF's (though you may get ppl complaining). But the reason I support this thread and the reason alot of ppl are behind wanting a galaxy revamp isn't cause we can't find a build, it is because any build you can make work for the Galaxy will ultimately be better on another ship.
Whether people want to argue about what it can do, what the devs should do, or what possibilities there are, the fact remains that given the Bo and console layout, the poor turn rate and the inertia you better off flying any other cruiser. When compared against any other Federation cruisers it comes in last. Not even gonna get into how it compares to the Klingons or new Romaulan ships.
Honestly I think they need to upgrade the turn to match the Science cruiser and the Assault cruiser atleast though I'd have to agree in this game the turnrate and durability of ships really needs looked into as I have seen other posters point out. Dunno how to really rework the system although I've seen many a poster here that would probably make this game alot better then the current design with their ideas.
I don't want the stupid trinity in this game where we have to have a Tank and healer and dps. Though I think if the Devs listened and took suggestions from a few posters on these forums many of them posting in this thread the game could be designed in such a fashion that ships didn't serve a purpose or fill a role so much as they came with different advantages that could play to different players strengths and make for unique builds for all classes of the different ships in this game.
Dunno how many agree or disagree, honestly I don't care where you stand on this issue. I do however care about making and improving this game. Not just in game play or design but in interest and player's choices, and letting this ship sit at the bottom of the pile of worth while ships to command isn't helping me or others in keeping up with player satisfaction or interest.
In short just improve the dang ship already and release my Dreadnaught Fleet version so I can command my favorite ships and not feel stuck choosing between what I want to fly and what ship fills the role and playstyle I've chosen. You don't have to give me exactly what I want but something alittle closer would be great.
Is the carrier build strictly for PvP? Or is it viable for PvE as well?
Just from looking at it, it depends on the PvE setting I'd guess. Most STF enemies like Borg and Voth dreads and the like are basically immune to subsystem effects (a downed system will become available in less than a second on most occasons). Regular mobs will probably suffer heavily from boarding parties, I did make quite a lot of use of those on my KDF Negh'Var and Fed Galaxy last season.
EDIT: Why not include the scorpion pet device in the carrier build?
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Hehe, I'd say its the opposite, its only really good for PvE, and I got really lucky against people that weren't ready for it in PvP.
I thought about adding the device scorps for kicks, but Nimbus Pirates are so much better I didn't. Maybe when I'm flying thru story missions or something hehe.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
The Galaxy R and fleet are not Fine
Noy Fine at all there pretty crummy
PvP is less than 5% of this game so anything it can be tweeked to do in pvp doesnt matter
Add up the number of people playing in PvE ques then the pvp ques to get the number of players in both
super tank with no dps is not needed in PvE so the galaxy has no role to fill
Anything the Galaxy can do the Fleet assualt can do better with 4 tac consoles verses 2
The ship needs more Firepower so its a worthwhile choice in PvE which is 95% of the game
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Blew all my cash on doffs, so I can't afford the doffs I want to try next. Using what I've learned accidentally PvPing for fun in my silly build yesterday, I came to the realization that solo PvP I did not need a second hazards and tss to survive. In Group PvP I rely on them in a cruiser because I adopt a healing role, but solo I was actually managing fine without them.
In theory, with a little tweaking and some doffs, I may well be able to put together a passable PvP Gal build that only a Gal-r, Ody, or Bort could fly... And instead of focusing on heals be far more about survive and pressure... And that I would actually want to fly sometimes instead of just as a joke to pass the time.
Honestly, this game has so much diversity, and the meta game changes very quickly and thoroughly with all the doff powers and new ships and new gear. I'd wager that less then 500 people total are even trying to push the top end, and that none of them actually fully understand the system so completely that they cannot be surprised by it. Absolutist thought is not your friend. Just because you cannot achieve something doesn't mean you should close your ears when other people are showing signs of success. There is no shame in not knowing everything about a system as complex as this one. There is no reason to close one's self off to it. Instead of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "NAH NAH NAH NO NO NO I DON'T DO MAX DPS SHIP SUCKS PLZ BUF!!!!!!! NAH NAH NAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!!" why don't you put your money where your mouth is and try pushing the envelope a little. You may learn something, and you are almost certain to have a ton of fun along the way.
At the very least you can have the eternal right to rag on a fleetmate that you beat them in a Gal-R... That was worth it's weight in latinum!
Edit:Give me some doffs or a set or some way to get cooldown reduction on TSS and HE in a Gal-R without sacrificing my aux and that really would be all I needed... hint hint devs... Or how about one that adds hazzard clense to aux to sif? Either of those would end this debate right quick and I'd be champing at the bit to get out there in a gal-r healboat.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Blew all my cash on doffs, so I can't afford the doffs I want to try next. Using what I've learned accidentally PvPing for fun in my silly build yesterday, I came to the realization that solo PvP I did not need a second hazards and tss to survive. In Group PvP I rely on them in a cruiser because I adopt a healing role, but solo I was actually managing fine without them.
In theory, with a little tweaking and some doffs, I may well be able to put together a passable PvP Gal build that only a Gal-r, Ody, or Bort could fly... And instead of focusing on heals be far more about survive and pressure... And that I would actually want to fly sometimes instead of just as a joke to pass the time.
Honestly, this game has so much diversity, and the meta game changes very quickly and thoroughly with all the doff powers and new ships and new gear. I'd wager that less then 500 people total are even trying to push the top end, and that none of them actually fully understand the system so completely that they cannot be surprised by it. Absolutist thought is not your friend. Just because you cannot achieve something doesn't mean you should close your ears when other people are showing signs of success. There is no shame in not knowing everything about a system as complex as this one. There is no reason to close one's self off to it. Instead of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "NAH NAH NAH NO NO NO I DON'T DO MAX DPS SHIP SUCKS PLZ BUF!!!!!!! NAH NAH NAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!!" why don't you put your money where your mouth is and try pushing the envelope a little. You may learn something, and you are almost certain to have a ton of fun along the way.
At the very least you can have the eternal right to rag on a fleetmate that you beat them in a Gal-R... That was worth it's weight in latinum!
Edit:Give me some doffs or a set or some way to get cooldown reduction on TSS and HE in a Gal-R without sacrificing my aux and that really would be all I needed... hint hint devs... Or how about one that adds hazzard clense to aux to sif? Either of those would end this debate right quick and I'd be champing at the bit to get out there in a gal-r healboat.
I created a build on a level 30 galaxy that did over 8000 DPS in ISE. Using the same template I bet I could make a nasty pressure build out of the Gal-R that could heal like a champ as well.
I know its possible, I want to see you do it now.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Blew all my cash on doffs, so I can't afford the doffs I want to try next. Using what I've learned accidentally PvPing for fun in my silly build yesterday, I came to the realization that solo PvP I did not need a second hazards and tss to survive. In Group PvP I rely on them in a cruiser because I adopt a healing role, but solo I was actually managing fine without them.
In theory, with a little tweaking and some doffs, I may well be able to put together a passable PvP Gal build that only a Gal-r, Ody, or Bort could fly... And instead of focusing on heals be far more about survive and pressure... And that I would actually want to fly sometimes instead of just as a joke to pass the time.
Honestly, this game has so much diversity, and the meta game changes very quickly and thoroughly with all the doff powers and new ships and new gear. I'd wager that less then 500 people total are even trying to push the top end, and that none of them actually fully understand the system so completely that they cannot be surprised by it. Absolutist thought is not your friend. Just because you cannot achieve something doesn't mean you should close your ears when other people are showing signs of success. There is no shame in not knowing everything about a system as complex as this one. There is no reason to close one's self off to it. Instead of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "NAH NAH NAH NO NO NO I DON'T DO MAX DPS SHIP SUCKS PLZ BUF!!!!!!! NAH NAH NAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!!" why don't you put your money where your mouth is and try pushing the envelope a little. You may learn something, and you are almost certain to have a ton of fun along the way.
At the very least you can have the eternal right to rag on a fleetmate that you beat them in a Gal-R... That was worth it's weight in latinum!
Edit:Give me some doffs or a set or some way to get cooldown reduction on TSS and HE in a Gal-R without sacrificing my aux and that really would be all I needed... hint hint devs... Or how about one that adds hazzard clense to aux to sif? Either of those would end this debate right quick and I'd be champing at the bit to get out there in a gal-r healboat.
I ended up in a pug KASE with you yesterday. I was using one of my alt engineering captain that isn't geared very well, but even so we were the major damage dealers in the stf (tho we were not impressive) and without us I'm pretty sure they would have failed lol.
Lilith (Me) - 7.025
Uranya - 6.174
La gana - 1.985
Gersimi - 1.256
Hung'tu Long - 979
I'm curious, you may have answered this earlier in the thread and if so I must have missed it, but why exactly do you use the Galaxy? I know that I pull mine out every once in a while since its a beautiful ship and one of my favorites from the tv series, but I end up putting it away again since it's just so terrible in comparison to the other available cruisers.
Well, with every product deserves the caveat... "Your actual performance may vary...", might have been play style and several other factors. Despite your fleets opinions back then, I beg to differ, and all of our opinions are just that... opinions.
the disappearance of the ship in sector space in this day, is NOT, an opinion.
especially when we did not have much ship choices as we do now.
like i said, either everyone hate the galaxy or they were something else.
Well, just as today, crew barely had an effect on the game. The only real loss powerwise was the shield power, a los of 5 engine power was more than made up for by the seperation and you only has a lt sci, so the 5 aux loss was only minimal. Using DBB/ torps and turrets back then more than made up the difference between it and the Star Cruiser.
there is not just 1 real loss,or just 1 valuable lost while the other are not important.
it is a hole.
at the exeption of the crew capacitie who is the only stats that can be ignored even if it is still an other lost.
these "loss" are stacking, you have -5 shield power "+" -5% shield hp, you have -5% auxiliary power "+" -15% hull capacity.
combined with the fact tat the galaxy not separated is already not as tanky as the star cruiser, when you add all this tohether you realize that the little firepower you gain is ridicule in comparison.
a double fire at will star cruiser would beat a 1 fire at will + torp power ( remember that torp spread was really crappy at thet time, this power have been reworked with season 3, before it did in most of the case crappy damage ) and UNBUFFED turret.
if you want to buff turret you lose a lt tact power for your beam or torp ( all that just to have the incredible firepower of 4 buff turret -_- ).
if you want to use a torp power and a beam power that mean that you are using unbuffed turret, buff turret are already not a huge dps machine, so unbuffed turret?
in evey combination you can come with, considering the power available at that time, you will end up with less firepower at the second you want to use turret in your build.
the only combination that allow you to outdps the star cruiser are BO and BFAW, or a double BFAW,and here the difference would really be not worth the lost in survivability in pvp.
but i can see that the boost in maneuvrability in pve can make you life easier, but that do not make the ship a better overhaul alternative technically speaking, meaning certainly not in pvp.
Never said my Excel was a DPS king
and i never said that you said it either, my point was that this kind of combination didn't have as function to kill people, so using a power like BO with that is uncoherent to said the least.
I also look at BO in terms of the "Tac" cruisers and Sci-ships that I use too. Its especially a PITA for my Nebula.
a lt tact BO and 2 tact console ship, and you have absolutly no idea why it is a PITA in this case?
Thats your opinion.
yes, it is, the real question is: is this opinion is share amoung the pvp community?
to the point where this opinion is more an empirical fact than a way of seeing things.
i don't known, all i known is that i never see some double bo build with a galaxy retrofit piloted by engineer in pvp premades, you can switch this ship with a star cruiser or even an exelsior if you want that is still the same.
i will quote myself again
so, using bo is not a bad thing on it own, it is choosing ship and captain abilities that are at the opposite in nature of the intended purpose of what bo is supposed to do that is bad.
So because I don't know some quasi-LOL/MMO speak term means that I don't PvP? On what planet does that even remotely make sense on? Also, calling me a liar isn't really going to earn you any points in the discussion. Did you ever think that maybe the people I chat with don't use that term?
it don't mean that you don't pvp, heck someone can do a pvp matche once every 2 month and said he do pvp! how can someone could proove the countrary?
however a player that want to do pvp seriously must informed himself on evey new power, gear, traits, reputation system and all other exploits, "hax" that are discover in the game to be prepared when he will face them ( or used them, pick your choice ).
vaper would be a term that you would known by now if you were just reading the opvpchannel, the pvp forum of cryptic or the zone chat in kerrat ( you rarely see that term in arena since people don't talk much there in pug exept the "GG" at the end of the match ).
people there speak about it for weeks now.
so this just show that your involvement in this part of the game is extremely limited to said the least and also undermined your abilitie to evaluate BO in it entirety, properly.
Edit: Holy wall of text batman! I'm sorry... but that is the short version.
Oh boy, I'm not sure I can answer that quickly, but I will try.
I've been into the MMO game scene since before most people knew the internet existed. I was connecting to the net on a VT100 thru a 12000 baud modem in the early '80s. I had helped developing features on several different MUD's, and was running my own Diku mud and later a short lived UnterMUD before The UnterVerse collapsed, all before I owned a Nintendo. I purposefully omit my professional history, but now due to heath matters I am essentially housebound, so I am free to speak my mind rather then having to always watch my tounge... Ahhh, freedom!
There is one universal truism that you learn when you are the one behind the scenes rather then the player, and that is players don't have any idea what they are talking about. Not really any of them. Even the best have a limited view. It cannot be any other way. Even the developers reach a point where they cannot know it all, and the players never have a clear shot.
Compounded with that, players each individually have their own agendas, will feel they are personally correct in the presence of evidence to the contrary, and will feel owed to them the right to dictate how the game is made, because somehow they must understand everything better then the people who are in charge, that any of the reasoning behind any decision is immediately faulty, and will take it as a sign of low intellect that the developer made a different choice than the player would have.
During my MMO career, I've been the lone Bard in EQ that was able to make anybody's jaw drop, at the exact same time the entire bard community was quitting in droves because they didn't understand the value of 0 downtime (nor the price they had to pay in constant uptime). I was that one Warlock in Vanilla WoW that would sit on a point in AB and solo 2-3 other "OP" classes in the time when it was an open joke that Warlocks were the worst class ever made (I had played an EQ necromancer... I already had training... people were just short sighted) All those Warlock PvP nerfs that happened when most people thought Locks were bad? Sorry all, that was me... Locking down people so hard people would stop trying to take my node...
Now? I came to this game to retire from being hardcore. My joints can't take the abuse anymore, and my health is failing. Still, I can't help but have a different perspective on these things. I was using A2B doffs, and had threads of people telling me how badly they sucked, and now they are all the rage. I was personally among the people who originally thought that beams were broken. Then I did some testing. Beams, it turned out, when you use them right, totally rock. In fact, all this beam popularity? It started... Wait for it!... *DURING* the time that BFaW both didn't crit, *AND* wasn't benefiting from mods... It wasn't broken beams, it was poor playing. Now beams are considered one of the best ways to play. No buffing, in fact nerfing, but clever players finally figured it out. I was one of the ones testing it. Infact, I bought my Gal-R to get over the sting of my accidentally discharging a ship with gear still on her because I was very sleepy after running all the tests. I don't really fly my Galaxy, although I would love to. I fly an Atrox...
Oh yeah, the Atrox... there is another one. 100s of threads telling me the Atrox is only a half step up from a Gal-R! I dove on mine day one, while my KDF was sitting in a VQ and a Kar'Fi, and she is still my #1 PvE ship. I do things in my Catbox that I've never seen done. I beat most tac scorts without blinking. I rank up with your average scimmy (not the peaked out monsters, but your average showing) I do all that and have a full sci layout and nearly 60k hull... I might actually break 60k when I get the fleet version. But... My ship sucks, I can't possibly fly her as well as I say I do... Yeah... My fleetmates know better.
The Galaxy? She is my favorite canon ship, how could she not be? I grew up on Next Gen. She is *MY* Enterprise. I admit, she has problems, and I did mention so earlier on in the thread what I feel they are. I admit I prefer to fly other ships to do what the Gal-R *SHOULD* (not what I *THINK* or *WANT* it should do, what it *REALLY SHOULD* do with its boff layout, eat damage and protect groupmates). I will likely chose something with higher science capability every time. I don't think that is necessarily bad, either. I personally don't prefer a Defiant to a ship that has more sci, either, but I do find that, for some reason, giving a ship the same treatment a Defaint gets for tac and an Intrepid gets for sci doesn't work when you give it the engineering version. I may be listening to to many Vulcans... but to me I can't help but see the logic is not that the ship needs to be changed, engineering needs tweaked so that the layout is more viable, not the layout removed from existence because it shows the inherent weakness in the skill design of engineering. She has very strong powers, but her cooldown management is a mess. Because of conflicting cooldowns it is overly difficult to cope with the influx of engineering boff assignments. Science giggles, they have skills to spare. Tac grumbles about not being able to use all DHC/Turrets, but eventually loads a torp or beam and gets over it. Engineering, "OMFG WHAT DO I DO WITH ALL THESE ENG SLOTS!!!" Ship is not broken, skills are.
Add to that, the Gal-R gets so much fan service, my own included, that everybody and their brother wants one that is the way they envision flying her. That clouds the issue even further. Nobody wants to hear that she won't do tons of DPS, they want her to be a clear cut, no holds barred, winner of awesomeness. Well, great. What will you do when the fancy lock box ship still outdps's her? What will you do when you get beat in PvP? She will never be some sort of mythical best ship ever. She will never be a tactical monster. Hell, I *LOVE* her, but lets be real. She flew around the galaxy filled with civilians and children to do humanitarian and diplomatic missions. She did light research because at the time she was the ship the built for exploring, but they quite often just did preliminary checks on things and sent the data back to Star Fleet to send real researchers. She isn't tac. She isn't sci. She really was... a glorified cruise ship. And that's the canon. I didn't write it. I just watched it, and enjoyed it immensely.
So why am I currently enamored with the Gal-R? Because I love her for the feelings she invokes in me every time I hear Picard say, "Engage!," and because as hard as I try to get away from the challenge of understanding the underdog and seeing if things are really as gloomy as they seem, I can't help it. I need to know.
If it really is as bad as it seems... you can be rest assured I'd be right there complaining. It's bad, yes, but it is nowhere near the level of outrage people show to her. Add a new engineering skill or 2 and things change entirely. unlink some of engineering shared cooldowns and things change entirely.
Extra credit bonus stage: If I'm being totally honest, and opening myself up to be burnt at the stake as a heretic... It's not even really that Eng is underpowered... It's that sci heals are too good... But at this point very integrated into the game... it would be difficult to nerf them correctly without having total player uproar and a period of re-balancing as stats got shifted and people relearned how to play. The reason people aren't thrilled to death to load up on Eng skills is because most of the secondary ones would be for increasing your resistances so damage vanishes, but isntead of actually wanting to use them, instead I'm going for the super power that heals great, clears debuffs, and grants resists as well. Like tac team, sci heals are way too strong for the good of balance, and too ingrained to consider changing lightly. I don't have the answers for what should be done to fix it, but I most certainly can see exactly where the problem is, even tho to fix it would be a major nerf to myself. I certainly don't want to be the one to announce a sci heal nerf, anymore then they want to announce a tac/scort one, so instead we get cruiser command/deflector/flanking bonus buff... And I would guess that the devs will take a similar "buff it to make it right" attitude and add cleanses to eng heals, ending the argument entirely. I don't have a crystal ball, but it certainly stands to reason. They already gave a self cleanse when using EP2* skills doff... perhaps I'm not as clever a prognosticator as I pretend :P
Oh, yeah KASE is hard to parse because its so spread out, you won't get proper reads for people who aren't you, unless they are in range the whole time. Even the span of the 2 generators is too far. Let me see if I can find that parse from my perspective:
See, and while I had an easier time dealing with probes in the Atrox, and did a hair more DPS, she blew chunks on Donatra. She cloaked over and over and over... Boarding party Gal-r smoked her pretty quick. Aux disables stop cloak. Shield drops increase damage. I'm spitting up to 9 of those things at a time with doffs. They are sometimes armed with point defense. I'm covered in FAW and DEM with marion. I have to manually deal with shields, I can do that PvE. I have to watch boarding parties on myself, I do that anyway to sqeeze AP:B on my Atrox. I'm having problems saying the ship is not effective, let alone as broken as most of the posts on this thread would have you belive, and I'm starting to think I can prove it, as well.
I haven't even tried to see what I can do with A2B yet, other then my first post in this thread where I did 12.something just tossing TRIBBLE on. Who knows what I will come up with once I try to mix it and the boarding parties.
Edit: My Atrox hit 18.8k ISE yesterday, for reference... broken ship my eye... (still only 17.5k DPS league... but TRIBBLE it I'm calling my extra fluff DPS when I can, it makes my e-endowments so big and swollen!)
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Edit: Holy wall of text batman! I'm sorry... but that is the short version.
Oh boy, I'm not sure I can answer that quickly, but I will try.
I've been into the MMO game scene since before most people knew the internet existed. I was connecting to the net on a VT100 thru a 12000 baud modem in the early '80s. I had helped developing features on several different MUD's, and was running my own Diku mud and later a short lived UnterMUD before The UnterVerse collapsed, all before I owned a Nintendo. I purposefully omit my professional history, but now due to heath matters I am essentially housebound, so I am free to speak my mind rather then having to always watch my tounge... Ahhh, freedom!
There is one universal truism that you learn when you are the one behind the scenes rather then the player, and that is players don't have any idea what they are talking about. Not really any of them. Even the best have a limited view. It cannot be any other way. Even the developers reach a point where they cannot know it all, and the players never have a clear shot.
Compounded with that, players each individually have their own agendas, will feel they are personally correct in the presence of evidence to the contrary, and will feel owed to them the right to dictate how the game is made, because somehow they must understand everything better then the people who are in charge, that any of the reasoning behind any decision is immediately faulty, and will take it as a sign of low intellect that the developer made a different choice than the player would have.
During my MMO career, I've been the lone Bard in EQ that was able to make anybody's jaw drop, at the exact same time the entire bard community was quitting in droves because they didn't understand the value of 0 downtime (nor the price they had to pay in constant uptime). I was that one Warlock in Vanilla WoW that would sit on a point in AB and solo 2-3 other "OP" classes in the time when it was an open joke that Warlocks were the worst class ever made (I had played an EQ necromancer... I already had training... people were just short sighted) All those Warlock PvP nerfs that happened when most people thought Locks were bad? Sorry all, that was me... Locking down people so hard people would stop trying to take my node...
Now? I came to this game to retire from being hardcore. My joints can't take the abuse anymore, and my health is failing. Still, I can't help but have a different perspective on these things. I was using A2B doffs, and had threads of people telling me how badly they sucked, and now they are all the rage. I was personally among the people who originally thought that beams were broken. Then I did some testing. Beams, it turned out, when you use them right, totally rock. In fact, all this beam popularity? It started... Wait for it!... *DURING* the time that BFaW both didn't crit, *AND* wasn't benefiting from mods... It wasn't broken beams, it was poor playing. Now beams are considered one of the best ways to play. No buffing, in fact nerfing, but clever players finally figured it out. I was one of the ones testing it. Infact, I bought my Gal-R to get over the sting of my accidentally discharging a ship with gear still on her because I was very sleepy after running all the tests. I don't really fly my Galaxy, although I would love to. I fly an Atrox...
Oh yeah, the Atrox... there is another one. 100s of threads telling me the Atrox is only a half step up from a Gal-R! I dove on mine day one, while my KDF was sitting in a VQ and a Kar'Fi, and she is still my #1 PvE ship. I do things in my Catbox that I've never seen done. I beat most tac scorts without blinking. I rank up with your average scimmy (not the peaked out monsters, but your average showing) I do all that and have a full sci layout and nearly 60k hull... I might actually break 60k when I get the fleet version. But... My ship sucks, I can't possibly fly her as well as I say I do... Yeah... My fleetmates know better.
The Galaxy? She is my favorite canon ship, how could she not be? I grew up on Next Gen. She is *MY* Enterprise. I admit, she has problems, and I did mention so earlier on in the thread what I feel they are. I admit I prefer to fly other ships to do what the Gal-R *SHOULD* (not what I *THINK* or *WANT* it should do, what it *REALLY SHOULD* do with its boff layout, eat damage and protect groupmates). I will likely chose something with higher science capability every time. I don't think that is necessarily bad, either. I personally don't prefer a Defiant to a ship that has more sci, either, but I do find that, for some reason, giving a ship the same treatment a Defaint gets for tac and an Intrepid gets for sci doesn't work when you give it the engineering version. I may be listening to to many Vulcans... but to me I can't help but see the logic is not that the ship needs to be changed, engineering needs tweaked so that the layout is more viable, not the layout removed from existence because it shows the inherent weakness in the skill design of engineering. She has very strong powers, but her cooldown management is a mess. Because of conflicting cooldowns it is overly difficult to cope with the influx of engineering boff assignments. Science giggles, they have skills to spare. Tac grumbles about not being able to use all DHC/Turrets, but eventually loads a torp or beam and gets over it. Engineering, "OMFG WHAT DO I DO WITH ALL THESE ENG SLOTS!!!" Ship is not broken, skills are.
Add to that, the Gal-R gets so much fan service, my own included, that everybody and their brother wants one that is the way they envision flying her. That clouds the issue even further. Nobody wants to hear that she won't do tons of DPS, they want her to be a clear cut, no holds barred, winner of awesomeness. Well, great. What will you do when the fancy lock box ship still outdps's her? What will you do when you get beat in PvP? She will never be some sort of mythical best ship ever. She will never be a tactical monster. Hell, I *LOVE* her, but lets be real. She flew around the galaxy filled with civilians and children to do humanitarian and diplomatic missions. She did light research because at the time she was the ship the built for exploring, but they quite often just did preliminary checks on things and sent the data back to Star Fleet to send real researchers. She isn't tac. She isn't sci. She really was... a glorified cruise ship. And that's the canon. I didn't write it. I just watched it, and enjoyed it immensely.
So why am I currently enamored with the Gal-R? Because I love her for the feelings she invokes in me every time I hear Picard say, "Engage!," and because as hard as I try to get away from the challenge of understanding the underdog and seeing if things are really as gloomy as they seem, I can't help it. I need to know.
If it really is as bad as it seems... you can be rest assured I'd be right there complaining. It's bad, yes, but it is nowhere near the level of outrage people show to her. Add a new engineering skill or 2 and things change entirely. unlink some of engineering shared cooldowns and things change entirely.
Extra credit bonus stage: If I'm being totally honest, and opening myself up to be burnt at the stake as a heretic... It's not even really that Eng is underpowered... It's that sci heals are too good... But at this point very integrated into the game... it would be difficult to nerf them correctly without having total player uproar and a period of re-balancing as stats got shifted and people relearned how to play. The reason people aren't thrilled to death to load up on Eng skills is because most of the secondary ones would be for increasing your resistances so damage vanishes, but isntead of actually wanting to use them, instead I'm going for the super power that heals great, clears debuffs, and grants resists as well. Like tac team, sci heals are way too strong for the good of balance, and too ingrained to consider changing lightly. I don't have the answers for what should be done to fix it, but I most certainly can see exactly where the problem is, even tho to fix it would be a major nerf to myself. I certainly don't want to be the one to announce a sci heal nerf, anymore then they want to announce a tac/scort one, so instead we get cruiser command/deflector/flanking bonus buff... And I would guess that the devs will take a similar "buff it to make it right" attitude and add cleanses to eng heals, ending the argument entirely. I don't have a crystal ball, but it certainly stands to reason. They already gave a self cleanse when using EP2* skills doff... perhaps I'm not as clever a prognosticator as I pretend :P
Oh, yeah KASE is hard to parse because its so spread out, you won't get proper reads for people who aren't you, unless they are in range the whole time. Even the span of the 2 generators is too far. Let me see if I can find that parse from my perspective:
See, and while I had an easier time dealing with probes in the Atrox, and did a hair more DPS, she blew chunks on Donatra. She cloaked over and over and over... Boarding party Gal-r smoked her pretty quick. Aux disables stop cloak. Shield drops increase damage. I'm spitting up to 9 of those things at a time with doffs. They are sometimes armed with point defense. I'm covered in FAW and DEM with marion. I have to manually deal with shields, I can do that PvE. I have to watch boarding parties on myself, I do that anyway to sqeeze AP:B on my Atrox. I'm having problems saying the ship is not effective, let alone as broken as most of the posts on this thread would have you belive, and I'm starting to think I can prove it, as well.
I haven't even tried to see what I can do with A2B yet, other then my first post in this thread where I did 12.something just tossing TRIBBLE on. Who knows what I will come up with once I try to mix it and the boarding parties.
Edit: My Atrox hit 18.8k ISE yesterday, for reference... broken ship my eye... (still only 17.5k DPS league... but TRIBBLE it I'm calling my extra fluff DPS when I can, it makes my e-endowments so big and swollen!)
That was a lot more detailed then I was expecting lol.
The Galaxy is probably my favorite ship as well. I also grew up watching TNG. In this game though the ship is unfortunately pretty bad when compared to the other ships in its class. While I enjoy trying to squeeze every ounce of performance out of subpar ship the Galaxy is particularly bad and is the weakest of all the cruisers. There are no other ships that are so skewed towards engineering. It's unique in that regard, but that doesn't really bring anything to the table. A Fleet Assault Cruiser can absorb damage just as well and put out double the dps, while a Fleet Support Cruiser can tank/heal/cc and put out more damage. There is no real lure to use the Galaxy other then it looks freaking awesome. While I agree there are problems with the engineering abilities...particularly those at ensign level. I have more confidence in cryptics ability to adjust the boff layout then I am with them revamping engineering skills as whole.
the galaxy wasn't quite as bad as it is now, back a LONG time ago, because back then you actually had to run 4 copies of EPt skills to get full up time with 2 different systems. 1 copy of any other eng skill did not give you full up time for it ether, like it does now with AtB builds, a glaxy R back then you could more easily run multiple DEM, RSP, ES, AtS, ET3, then you could on other cruisers, without dipping into your EPt skills.
damage control doffs removed this advantage, every other cruiser now had more eng slot flexibility then the galaxy R did without damage control, and a galaxy with damage control had way more then it needed, and that ENS eng started really having a poor opportunity cost. since it had so little tac or sci, there wasn't that many other doffs that would be useful for it, back then.
then came along the moving of AtB from the EPt system cooldown to the AtX system cooldown. now you can run 2 different EPt skills, and AtB. only then did this flavor of the year(s) AtB build take over the damage dealing cruiser game, before it was a crazy person niche. with this new high tier other cruisers can be pushed to thanks to this, the value of every single additional eng skill over about 6 comes heavily into question. if you run an AtB build, your trying to deal damage, what 7th or 8th eng skill would help you more then additional tac or sci? what would benefit your damage, force multiplication, or survivability more? the answer is not more eng.
in fact destroyers that have a COM tac, and can have a LTC and LT eng are better then 6 eng skill cruisers, what you can get with a COM tac is far better then anything you could set up with a COM eng. 2 LT eng might be even better, then you have a COM tac and a LTC sci. the only reason cruisers can compete with these ships is because they have an 8th weapons and a bit more hitpoints. at least the top 3 beam boats are not cruisers though, but ships with a COM tac. like the scimitar, breen chel, jem dread, jem heavy, vet ships, even though many of those are down a weapon.
nothing thats found in the eng tree is part of some secret recipe for the perfect vap or DPS. nothing has some exaggerated effect when combined just right with other powers, like tac and sci are filthy with. EWP cant stop anything you need to stop thanks to APO and buffed EPtE, can hardly be wielded by a fat high inertia cruiser at all, and the skill that literally every single person runs, HE, clears it easily. DEM3 is no APO3 when it comes to damage dealing. AB does nearly nothing, also HE cleared. ES is a team heal skill fit for a heal boat not a dps boat, ET3 interferes with TT, and if a galaxy ran it that would literally mean your running a ship with 1 less station power then everyone else, given you have to run ET1 on the ship. you cant be serious, considering running a 3rd EPt skill there, id love to watch you accidentally go without EPtS for 30 seconds, and thats still got terrible opportunity cost compared to a tac or sci skill even if you pull it off perfectly. all you need is RSP2 and DEM3, 2 AtB, and EPtS1 and ether EPtE/W1. theres no other valuable skill in that tree for a dps cruiser. not only that, if your running a 7 or 8 eng power cruiser, your proboly missing out on ether a LTC tac or sci skill. its not an understatement to say that whatever skill you could slot there is the skill the whole rest of your ship will pivot around, and be built to exploit the best. be it doffed TBR, GW, FAW3, APO, any of those skills can make your ship an order of magnitude more dangerous, and you would consider not running any of them for a 7th eng skill that serves no useful purpose? and THEN there the galaxy R, it has 8 eng skill, its hard to articulate just how far behind that leaves it.
on the other side of the coin theres the whole healer tank role the galaxy R could take, and its epically bad at that too. the best heal boat setup is a COM and ENS eng, and an LTC and TL sci. or a step beyond that, COM and LTC eng, LTC and ENS sci, ENS tac that the recluse has. the galaxy R station setup is even farther from these healing ideals then it is far from tac cruiser optimal.
is it still possible to kill things or heal things or tank in a galaxy R? yes, but dont for a second think every single other cruiser option can do it an order of magnitude better. if there was a single thing the galaxy R was actually good at, or above average at that would be different, this thread wouldn't be warranted, but theres not. its always worse then something else in every possible use for it.
the disappearance of the ship in sector space in this day, is NOT, an opinion.
especially when we did not have much ship choices as we do now.
like i said, either everyone hate the galaxy or they were something else.
there is not just 1 real loss,or just 1 valuable lost while the other are not important.
it is a hole.
at the exeption of the crew capacitie who is the only stats that can be ignored even if it is still an other lost.
these "loss" are stacking, you have -5 shield power "+" -5% shield hp, you have -5% auxiliary power "+" -15% hull capacity.
combined with the fact tat the galaxy not separated is already not as tanky as the star cruiser, when you add all this tohether you realize that the little firepower you gain is ridicule in comparison.
a double fire at will star cruiser would beat a 1 fire at will + torp power ( remember that torp spread was really crappy at thet time, this power have been reworked with season 3, before it did in most of the case crappy damage ) and UNBUFFED turret.
if you want to buff turret you lose a lt tact power for your beam or torp ( all that just to have the incredible firepower of 4 buff turret -_- ).
if you want to use a torp power and a beam power that mean that you are using unbuffed turret, buff turret are already not a huge dps machine, so unbuffed turret?
in evey combination you can come with, considering the power available at that time, you will end up with less firepower at the second you want to use turret in your build.
the only combination that allow you to outdps the star cruiser are BO and BFAW, or a double BFAW,and here the difference would really be not worth the lost in survivability in pvp.
but i can see that the boost in maneuvrability in pve can make you life easier, but that do not make the ship a better overhaul alternative technically speaking, meaning certainly not in pvp.
and i never said that you said it either, my point was that this kind of combination didn't have as function to kill people, so using a power like BO with that is uncoherent to said the least.
a lt tact BO and 2 tact console ship, and you have absolutly no idea why it is a PITA in this case?
Its a PITA because of the weapons drain, not that its a LT slot or because it has two Tactical consoles. Even with six weapons the drain on it is rough, especially considering that its more important to have high aux on it than weapon power. Its okay, understand,you didn't read the part about the drain.
yes, it is, the real question is: is this opinion is share amoung the pvp community?
to the point where this opinion is more an empirical fact than a way of seeing things.
i don't known, all i known is that i never see some double bo build with a galaxy retrofit piloted by engineer in pvp premades, you can switch this ship with a star cruiser or even an exelsior if you want that is still the same.
i will quote myself again
it don't mean that you don't pvp, heck someone can do a pvp matche once every 2 month and said he do pvp! how can someone could proove the countrary?
however a player that want to do pvp seriously must informed himself on evey new power, gear, traits, reputation system and all other exploits, "hax" that are discover in the game to be prepared when he will face them ( or used them, pick your choice ).
vaper would be a term that you would known by now if you were just reading the opvpchannel, the pvp forum of cryptic or the zone chat in kerrat ( you rarely see that term in arena since people don't talk much there in pug exept the "GG" at the end of the match ).
people there speak about it for weeks now.
so this just show that your involvement in this part of the game is extremely limited to said the least and also undermined your abilitie to evaluate BO in it entirety, properly.
Well, I am glad we have experts in "who-is-what" like you here, to do determine who has the ability to discuss anything, "in its entirety properly". STO is now safe from those who are inferior and shouldn't be allowed to say that they are "X". I am so glad that you can route charlatans out with your infinite wisdom. All hail the expert/purist!!!
At the risk of sounding personal (since I feel that it has been personal for quite some time upon me), I really believe that as much as you think that you think that you have the ability to call my PvP status into question, you bring up your own sense of elitism. Because someone doesn't act as you doesn't make them less relevant. Just a week ago you were somewhat agitated that I didn't memorize every fact of your gaming life, like that people normally do something like that in regards to MMO playership, when in actuality I would argue that such a thing is abnormal. Really, is this so important that primary aspects of life take a back seat and those that aren't as whatever-you-want-to-call-it are lesser?
If not following the PvP forums like a rabbi memorizes the Torah and not spending time on the PvP chat (whichever one you are on) makes me lesser than you, then as we say in my area..... whatever.
Honestly, I don't care what the "PvP Community" as a whole thinks is true, I care what is in fact true.
I've seen the PvP community up in arms over TRIBBLE I beat when I was a nub at PvP. Population numbers don't indicate correctness of information. "Oh my! the Cheese group! They are nothing but OP using every broken power in the game and are unbeatable!!!!eleven!!! Yeah... beat them my second time against them in a pug, as a PvP nub. The people in the PvP community were just as certain beams sucked, too. And AtB. Just because you PvP doesn't mean you get mystic knowledge handed to you, it just means you have learned a different skill set.
Again, players do not have access to enough information to be as sure of themselves as they are, and none of us know the system well enough that we can't be surprised by it.
And another thing, hyperbole does not make your arguments any stronger. "Order of Magnitude" obviously doesn't mean what you say it does. A DPS cruiser is most certainly not an order of magnitude better then a Gal-R. It's slightly better at doing damage. Slightly.
An order of magnitude would be putting a FACR at around 150k DPS in my hands...
And I am not an order of magnitude better a healer in my Ambassador, either. I'm slightly better. Yes, in a game of combat, slightly can be all it takes, but lets be real here. This game is not balanced on the razor's edge. A couple k DPS is not that important when it is possible to make even the lowest DPS ships in the game do double the DPS that the system expects out of you.
PvP? Sure. She might be the worst pick, I'm not even really trying to debate that. My point is that inevitably there will always be a worst ship. My point is it isn't as bleak as it seems, it certainly isn't as bad as this thread would have you believe. And my last point is if the ship really turns out to be that bad, it isn't the boff layout that is to blame, it is the skills contained within the boff layout that need addressed.
I'd prefer to live in a world where a heavy engineering cruiser was a choice to fly, not ban them from existence because engineering skills lack diversity. It's the wrong fix, and anybody who is being honest and not just trying to turn the Gal-R into her own personal fantasy toy should want the same thing for the game.
Edit: She doesn't need to be the best at anything to be viable. The Defiant is not the best at anything. The Intrepid is not the best at anything. The Galaxy just needs to be as competetive in her arena as those ships are in theirs. I admit whole heartedly that she is not currently. I just also know that the difference is not anywhere near as severe as people claim, and that any number of simple, natural fixes would change this debate right around, no changes to the ship herself needed.
Edit2: The only other argument that even approaches logic is the "No ship should be built like a Defiant/Intrepid/Galaxy, and that is inherantly the problem." I can actually see things from that viewpoint. Is it true? Maybe. If all 3 ship types were deemed broken, then yes, change all 3. If the other 2 are not broken, then by default the logic shows the Galaxy is not broken, and the skills are and need to be addressed. Then you are helping other ships and the game as a whole.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Its a PITA because of the weapons drain, not that its a LT slot or because it has two Tactical consoles. Even with six weapons the drain on it is rough, especially considering that its more important to have high aux on it than weapon power. Its okay, understand,you didn't read the part about the drain.
i am well aware of the power drain of BO, but once again it seem to me that you don't.
why? your weapons number have nothing to do with the drain that impose you the BO power, meaning BO will not drain more because you got more weapons on the ship.
BO drain 50 weapons power, regardless of your overcapping and numbers of weapons.
when you fire BO there is only 1 weapon that fire and it is the one that is overloaded.
of course if you use it incorectly, like fire bo right after firing you others weapons, here the number of weapons you have will have an effect on the damage dealt by bo.
example you were at 125 weapons power, you fire some of your beam, let said 5, so that make aproximately on the "nosemeter" -50 weapons power, so you found yourself at 75.
if you fire a BO at that time, no only the damage dealt by BO will be very crappy du to you power level in weapons power but you will then end up at 25 weapons power in the end, wich will be very to long to recover and ruin your dps afterward.
if you don't use it incorrectly like in the example above, bo will deal more damage and will be less of a burden on weapons drain.
however, unlike what you think, drain is not the problem of bo.
why? well if it were, cruiser pilot with an engie captain would be the king of BO, woudn't you said?
cruiser abilitie: weapons system efficiency
engi captain abilitie: nadion inversion
BO use without abilitie: 125 -50 = 75 weapons power left
BO use with cruiser command weapons efficiency: 125 - ( 50 -25% ) = 85 weapons power left
BO use with nadion inversion: 105 weapons power left
BO use with cruiser command and nadion: 115 weapons power left
and i am even not speaking about auxtobat and leech console, batteries ect that will reduced that even further
however all this will not make a engie captain in a cruiser deal huge amounth of dps with it, even with extremely limited power drain.
the answers is easy to anderstand, the number of tactical bridge officer that allow you to slot some attack pattern with a hight version of BO ( at least version 2 ), your number of tactical console and finally your captain abilitie, like APA, FOMM, tactical fleet ARE the abilitie that will make BO worht the shot if you allow me the expression.
you will not be able to have that damage potential with ship that only got a lt tact slot, 2 tact console and in wich you put an engie captain EVEN with an hypothetical ZERO power drain.
and of course this is better used in pvp, bo is a pvp power, that goes without saying, killing a mob in 1 shot have absolutely no interest and is a waste of your abilitie in the long term.
if the power drain would remain the same, but cryptic suddently decided to give this abilitie 3 time it current dps, would you still said it is not worth it because of the power drain?
i don't think so, and i proove to you above that having limited power drain wil not render that power more valid.
so it not a PITA because of the power drain, but because of the bad combination of ship and captain career and use in pve content.
Well, I am glad we have experts in "who-is-what" like you here, to do determine who has the ability to discuss anything, "in its entirety properly". STO is now safe from those who are inferior and shouldn't be allowed to say that they are "X". I am so glad that you can route charlatans out with your infinite wisdom. All hail the expert/purist!!!
and i am glad that you finally open your eyes to what i really am, a talented genious with infinite wisdom who is never wrong!
it took you some time tho!
but since i am a forgiven person, it is with great pleasure that i am giving you the privilege to adress to me as "master" from now on.
sht shtttt! don't thank me! i am well aware of how hard it is to inferior people like you to get there in the first place, so it is well deserved.
ok, on a more serious note now, calling me a expert/purist elitist isn't really going to earn you any points in the discussion, you known that don't you?
At the risk of sounding personal (since I feel that it has been personal for quite some time upon me), I really believe that as much as you think that you think that you have the ability to call my PvP status into question, you bring up your own sense of elitism. Because someone doesn't act as you doesn't make them less relevant.
if you want to criticize a power in this game, you must do it with the full perspective of it potentiality given every combination possible, wich you do not.
all what you said about it is, it is a pita when i use it with my cruiser, never i have seen you give me a comment of how it fare when someone using it on you for example.
it just look like a pve centric view to me, and the fact that you didn't meet or known what a vaper is, is just a confirmation.
you don't informed yourself about new things that are introduced into the game and don't pratice pvp exept with some selected friend of your.
how did you came to the conclusion that you have the full perspective to known how bo should be with that?
it is not about acting like me, it is about your personal involvment and knownledge on the question that make your opinion less relevant because it miss some critical part of the game experience.
Just a week ago you were somewhat agitated that I didn't memorize every fact of your gaming life, like that people normally do something like that in regards to MMO playership, when in actuality I would argue that such a thing is abnormal.
we are arguing for what 200, 300 pages? i stop counting after a while.
with that in mind i would have thaught that you might at least remember who i am and the ship and weapons i got since we have some long discussion about it.
just like i known for a long time that you fly an exelsior with en engi and a single cannon build, nothing spectacular or very detailled and maybe not accurate anymore.
but i do remember.
i found it abnormal or a specific troll manner to completely forget a person with wich you speak and argue with for about 300 pages in a blink of a eyes.
but you might have the Alzheimer desease, who known?
special powers added to the sships hull....what ever many to choose from .. From Canon
and come to think of it we dont have a 45% arc Heavy beam bank either to match up to the dual heavy cannon
We dont have a Beam rapid fire to equal cannons crit chance either
Beam overload is so weak its a PvP only skill useless in PvE...we need a new skill to replace it
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
The Galaxy, in all its forms, needs only one thing: a nerf.
Granted, the Miranda and Excelsior and Constitution need a MASSIVE nerf. But face it, the Galaxy's like seventy years old. It has no business being used. At least not by NPCs. Sure, let it be flown by players, maybe even be viable. But it shouldn't be the most awesomeness DPS invinciboat ever. Although I do agree that we need heavy beam arrays.
Guys? What if they gave a tactical mode ability/gimmick to the Hull Separation console, much like the new mechanic in the Solanae/Dyson ships in the anniversary FE?
It kinda makes sense for your Boff seating to change when you Hull Separate because you are essentially moving to a different bridge (the battle bridge) to command. This will mainly affect the Odyssey, Galaxy, Fleet Galaxy-X (when it comes out), and the Prometheus-class ships.
Member since November 2009... I think. (UFP) Ragnar
The Galaxy, in all its forms, needs only one thing: a nerf.
Granted, the Miranda and Excelsior and Constitution need a MASSIVE nerf. But face it, the Galaxy's like seventy years old. It has no business being used. At least not by NPCs. Sure, let it be flown by players, maybe even be viable. But it shouldn't be the most awesomeness DPS invinciboat ever. Although I do agree that we need heavy beam arrays.
*45 years old. and if it doesn't have a right to be in the game, not a single canon ship, thats are all at least 45 to 40 years old, have a right too. all those classes were built to last 100 years and majorly overhauled every 20. some structural limitation that would prevent the incorporation of new technology would be needed to truly obsolete any of those designs. such a limitation is present on ships like the excelsior though, they cant even be equipped with phaser arrays with out half its saucer being rebuilt. they have no excuse for lasting this long
The Galaxy, in all its forms, needs only one thing: a nerf.
Granted, the Miranda and Excelsior and Constitution need a MASSIVE nerf. But face it, the Galaxy's like seventy years old. It has no business being used. At least not by NPCs. Sure, let it be flown by players, maybe even be viable. But it shouldn't be the most awesomeness DPS invinciboat ever. Although I do agree that we need heavy beam arrays.
Honestly, I don't care what the "PvP Community" as a whole thinks is true, I care what is in fact true.
I've seen the PvP community up in arms over TRIBBLE I beat when I was a nub at PvP. Population numbers don't indicate correctness of information. "Oh my! the Cheese group! They are nothing but OP using every broken power in the game and are unbeatable!!!!eleven!!! Yeah... beat them my second time against them in a pug, as a PvP nub. The people in the PvP community were just as certain beams sucked, too. And AtB. Just because you PvP doesn't mean you get mystic knowledge handed to you, it just means you have learned a different skill set.
Again, players do not have access to enough information to be as sure of themselves as they are, and none of us know the system well enough that we can't be surprised by it.
And another thing, hyperbole does not make your arguments any stronger. "Order of Magnitude" obviously doesn't mean what you say it does. A DPS cruiser is most certainly not an order of magnitude better then a Gal-R. It's slightly better at doing damage. Slightly.
An order of magnitude would be putting a FACR at around 150k DPS in my hands...
And I am not an order of magnitude better a healer in my Ambassador, either. I'm slightly better. Yes, in a game of combat, slightly can be all it takes, but lets be real here. This game is not balanced on the razor's edge. A couple k DPS is not that important when it is possible to make even the lowest DPS ships in the game do double the DPS that the system expects out of you.
PvP? Sure. She might be the worst pick, I'm not even really trying to debate that. My point is that inevitably there will always be a worst ship. My point is it isn't as bleak as it seems, it certainly isn't as bad as this thread would have you believe. And my last point is if the ship really turns out to be that bad, it isn't the boff layout that is to blame, it is the skills contained within the boff layout that need addressed.
I'd prefer to live in a world where a heavy engineering cruiser was a choice to fly, not ban them from existence because engineering skills lack diversity. It's the wrong fix, and anybody who is being honest and not just trying to turn the Gal-R into her own personal fantasy toy should want the same thing for the game.
Edit: She doesn't need to be the best at anything to be viable. The Defiant is not the best at anything. The Intrepid is not the best at anything. The Galaxy just needs to be as competetive in her arena as those ships are in theirs. I admit whole heartedly that she is not currently. I just also know that the difference is not anywhere near as severe as people claim, and that any number of simple, natural fixes would change this debate right around, no changes to the ship herself needed.
Edit2: The only other argument that even approaches logic is the "No ship should be built like a Defiant/Intrepid/Galaxy, and that is inherantly the problem." I can actually see things from that viewpoint. Is it true? Maybe. If all 3 ship types were deemed broken, then yes, change all 3. If the other 2 are not broken, then by default the logic shows the Galaxy is not broken, and the skills are and need to be addressed. Then you are helping other ships and the game as a whole.
pvp community doesn't agree on much, and theres a wide variety of ability between its players. the big differences between player tends to be how well they can counter 'cheese', its not possible to paint the entire community as united on its opinion on anything being cheese.
beams did suck, in the last 6 to 12 months a lot of power creep has benefited beams, and changed things considerably. cruisers with 4 tac consoles, AtB change, leach and how easy it is to overcap, buff to EPtW's damage its whole duration, nukara console + beam acc, cruiser drain res commands, spire consoles that reduce drain, and extremely powerful versions of FAW latterly. they all add up, and right now rule pvp like they do pve.
im not a DPS parseing jock, but i do know the best numbers the galaxy can generate arent even half of what an avenger can produce, and a fraction of what a scimitar can. if at least double isn't an order of magnitude, i dont know what is. the problem is, at least in pvp were there is constant heals and regeneration, you need a certain level of DPS, or your not going to even break even with your target's healing
there doesn't need to be a worst ship, theres not a worst escort or sci ship. the aquarius may be down on hitpoints, but its not down on damage dealing compared to any common escort. theres nothing wrong with the defient and intrepid, they dont suffer from crippling system cooldown issues. i have set out in great detail how far behind the ship is, ive yet to see an actual rebutle or an error pointed out in my analysis. other then no, i dont think its that bad.
The problem is this game is biased. Through out all of any star trek series you look at the ships are flexible. The Connie was was an exploration ship with a decent amount of fire power. The intrepid was a light CRUISER. not a sci ship as this game makes out. the galaxy was a big project and was a combination of a science and tactical ship combined with the added ability of been able to provide planet wide relief during disasters. It is the perfect icon of the flexibilty of star fleets ships and its ability to easily adapt. This game quite wrongly characterizes the ships.
What should be happening is that when we buy a ship the weapons slots and everything are all laid out, but we are given a number of device slots which WE (the player) can choose where we want them to go. For example, you buy a galaxy and get given 10 console slots and i choose to put 4 in engineering, 2 sci and 4 tac. someone else might choose 3 tac, 3 sci, 4 tac etc. we the gamer, should be allowed to build the ship to our own needs as we all have different play styles and needs. the ships are far too rigged and unflexible.
Comments
man, i am sorry but an event of such a level of awesomeness in the awesometers will alway produce aftershock, and that the server who paid the price:D
on an other note i am sad i wasn't there with galaxy around qonos.
this event was really good, i hope there will be more, not just for annyversary thread.
beside since cryptic will soon make some OP version of all galaxy in the game this tread will die soon anyway:rolleyes:
starbase defense with only galaxy was epic! a real federation fleet!!!
even with some miranda it would be awesome.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=528931&page=271
http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g362/DarielaScc/galcarrier1_zpsa94c2307.png
http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/?build=galrcarrier_5664
Doffs are in the notes tab.
Would be hard to do in another ship, Odyssey or Bort non-withstanding... start to run out of doff space. I need no technicians or damage control engineers.
And that is just the maiden voyage. I need to spend some time and see what I can do to optimize it.
Edit: Just had a 9.6k KASE and took the Scimmy out fast because my boarding parties dropped her shields... Not a bad run for the "worst ship in the game." My 18.6k Atrox only does like 11k in KASE due to timing.
Edit2: Running into problems when I run out of crew... boarding parties won't fire... Switching to Adapted MACO for the 2pc... We'll see if that works out. I have a nurse as well, and I can try 2pc adapted+jem shield... bah I hate that shield... Testing to do hehe..
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Everyone leaves behind loot. I'm one of the only people I've ever seen that tries to collect all the loot critters I can.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
My name is Rage, and I too support a revised Galaxy family.
Forget all that effort to find out it's my 1000th lockbox...
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
As was mine
Well, with every product deserves the caveat... "Your actual performance may vary...", might have been play style and several other factors. Despite your fleets opinions back then, I beg to differ, and all of our opinions are just that... opinions.
Well, just as today, crew barely had an effect on the game. The only real loss powerwise was the shield power, a los of 5 engine power was more than made up for by the seperation and you only has a lt sci, so the 5 aux loss was only minimal. Using DBB/ torps and turrets back then more than made up the difference between it and the Star Cruiser.
I use an Engi' in an Excel', an Engi' in a Gal-x, A sci' in a Nebula, a Tac in an Avenger and another Engi in a Mogai refit and a Tac in the Klingon Vet' Ship. I have used a Gal-R on both Engi and Tac toons and my opinion holds for all of those beam using vessels, not just the Excel' or the Gal-R/X.
Never said my Excel was a DPS king
I also look at BO in terms of the "Tac" cruisers and Sci-ships that I use too. Its especially a PITA for my Nebula.
Thats your opinion.
So because I don't know some quasi-LOL/MMO speak term means that I don't PvP? On what planet does that even remotely make sense on? Also, calling me a liar isn't really going to earn you any points in the discussion. Did you ever think that maybe the people I chat with don't use that term?
I guess I'm just not as cool because I don't have around the PvP chat channel, smoking ECigs and trying to look up the RP'ing female Catarians skill at DS9... my loss.
Thank you for finally breaking it down.
I need those cred's when I sell them to the vendors, I'd pick up a penny in orbit if I could.
Whether people want to argue about what it can do, what the devs should do, or what possibilities there are, the fact remains that given the Bo and console layout, the poor turn rate and the inertia you better off flying any other cruiser. When compared against any other Federation cruisers it comes in last. Not even gonna get into how it compares to the Klingons or new Romaulan ships.
Honestly I think they need to upgrade the turn to match the Science cruiser and the Assault cruiser atleast though I'd have to agree in this game the turnrate and durability of ships really needs looked into as I have seen other posters point out. Dunno how to really rework the system although I've seen many a poster here that would probably make this game alot better then the current design with their ideas.
I don't want the stupid trinity in this game where we have to have a Tank and healer and dps. Though I think if the Devs listened and took suggestions from a few posters on these forums many of them posting in this thread the game could be designed in such a fashion that ships didn't serve a purpose or fill a role so much as they came with different advantages that could play to different players strengths and make for unique builds for all classes of the different ships in this game.
Dunno how many agree or disagree, honestly I don't care where you stand on this issue. I do however care about making and improving this game. Not just in game play or design but in interest and player's choices, and letting this ship sit at the bottom of the pile of worth while ships to command isn't helping me or others in keeping up with player satisfaction or interest.
In short just improve the dang ship already and release my Dreadnaught Fleet version so I can command my favorite ships and not feel stuck choosing between what I want to fly and what ship fills the role and playstyle I've chosen. You don't have to give me exactly what I want but something alittle closer would be great.
She scored kills in PvP!
I'm not just talking nub kills. I actually popped the fleetie I find hardest to kill.
I did switch some doffs, but other then that my loadout was the same.
So yeah, with no tac team and my main offense being boarding parties, I beat a Mobius straight up, among others.
The defense rests. Gal-R is fine. Better ships? Certainly, but the same can be said for any ship.
Now back to my Mobius... I got the taste for real PVP again...
Edit: And if it wasn't for Temporal Backstep I'd have scored a ton more kills, he kept backing out of them hehe...
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Helpful Tools: Dictionary.com - Logical fallacies - Random generator - Word generator - Color tool - Extra Credits - List of common English language errors - New T6 Big booty tutorial
me too, i hate to leave them, so i always take the time to pick them up, it only a matter of 15 sec anyway
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=528931&page=271
Just from looking at it, it depends on the PvE setting I'd guess. Most STF enemies like Borg and Voth dreads and the like are basically immune to subsystem effects (a downed system will become available in less than a second on most occasons). Regular mobs will probably suffer heavily from boarding parties, I did make quite a lot of use of those on my KDF Negh'Var and Fed Galaxy last season.
EDIT: Why not include the scorpion pet device in the carrier build?
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
I thought about adding the device scorps for kicks, but Nimbus Pirates are so much better I didn't. Maybe when I'm flying thru story missions or something hehe.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Noy Fine at all there pretty crummy
PvP is less than 5% of this game so anything it can be tweeked to do in pvp doesnt matter
Add up the number of people playing in PvE ques then the pvp ques to get the number of players in both
super tank with no dps is not needed in PvE so the galaxy has no role to fill
Anything the Galaxy can do the Fleet assualt can do better with 4 tac consoles verses 2
The ship needs more Firepower so its a worthwhile choice in PvE which is 95% of the game
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
In theory, with a little tweaking and some doffs, I may well be able to put together a passable PvP Gal build that only a Gal-r, Ody, or Bort could fly... And instead of focusing on heals be far more about survive and pressure... And that I would actually want to fly sometimes instead of just as a joke to pass the time.
Honestly, this game has so much diversity, and the meta game changes very quickly and thoroughly with all the doff powers and new ships and new gear. I'd wager that less then 500 people total are even trying to push the top end, and that none of them actually fully understand the system so completely that they cannot be surprised by it. Absolutist thought is not your friend. Just because you cannot achieve something doesn't mean you should close your ears when other people are showing signs of success. There is no shame in not knowing everything about a system as complex as this one. There is no reason to close one's self off to it. Instead of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "NAH NAH NAH NO NO NO I DON'T DO MAX DPS SHIP SUCKS PLZ BUF!!!!!!! NAH NAH NAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!!" why don't you put your money where your mouth is and try pushing the envelope a little. You may learn something, and you are almost certain to have a ton of fun along the way.
At the very least you can have the eternal right to rag on a fleetmate that you beat them in a Gal-R... That was worth it's weight in latinum!
Edit:Give me some doffs or a set or some way to get cooldown reduction on TSS and HE in a Gal-R without sacrificing my aux and that really would be all I needed... hint hint devs... Or how about one that adds hazzard clense to aux to sif? Either of those would end this debate right quick and I'd be champing at the bit to get out there in a gal-r healboat.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
I created a build on a level 30 galaxy that did over 8000 DPS in ISE. Using the same template I bet I could make a nasty pressure build out of the Gal-R that could heal like a champ as well.
I know its possible, I want to see you do it now.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
I ended up in a pug KASE with you yesterday. I was using one of my alt engineering captain that isn't geared very well, but even so we were the major damage dealers in the stf (tho we were not impressive) and without us I'm pretty sure they would have failed lol.
Lilith (Me) - 7.025
Uranya - 6.174
La gana - 1.985
Gersimi - 1.256
Hung'tu Long - 979
I'm curious, you may have answered this earlier in the thread and if so I must have missed it, but why exactly do you use the Galaxy? I know that I pull mine out every once in a while since its a beautiful ship and one of my favorites from the tv series, but I end up putting it away again since it's just so terrible in comparison to the other available cruisers.
the disappearance of the ship in sector space in this day, is NOT, an opinion.
especially when we did not have much ship choices as we do now.
like i said, either everyone hate the galaxy or they were something else.
there is not just 1 real loss,or just 1 valuable lost while the other are not important.
it is a hole.
at the exeption of the crew capacitie who is the only stats that can be ignored even if it is still an other lost.
these "loss" are stacking, you have -5 shield power "+" -5% shield hp, you have -5% auxiliary power "+" -15% hull capacity.
combined with the fact tat the galaxy not separated is already not as tanky as the star cruiser, when you add all this tohether you realize that the little firepower you gain is ridicule in comparison.
a double fire at will star cruiser would beat a 1 fire at will + torp power ( remember that torp spread was really crappy at thet time, this power have been reworked with season 3, before it did in most of the case crappy damage ) and UNBUFFED turret.
if you want to buff turret you lose a lt tact power for your beam or torp ( all that just to have the incredible firepower of 4 buff turret -_- ).
if you want to use a torp power and a beam power that mean that you are using unbuffed turret, buff turret are already not a huge dps machine, so unbuffed turret?
in evey combination you can come with, considering the power available at that time, you will end up with less firepower at the second you want to use turret in your build.
the only combination that allow you to outdps the star cruiser are BO and BFAW, or a double BFAW,and here the difference would really be not worth the lost in survivability in pvp.
but i can see that the boost in maneuvrability in pve can make you life easier, but that do not make the ship a better overhaul alternative technically speaking, meaning certainly not in pvp.
and i never said that you said it either, my point was that this kind of combination didn't have as function to kill people, so using a power like BO with that is uncoherent to said the least.
a lt tact BO and 2 tact console ship, and you have absolutly no idea why it is a PITA in this case?
yes, it is, the real question is: is this opinion is share amoung the pvp community?
to the point where this opinion is more an empirical fact than a way of seeing things.
i don't known, all i known is that i never see some double bo build with a galaxy retrofit piloted by engineer in pvp premades, you can switch this ship with a star cruiser or even an exelsior if you want that is still the same.
i will quote myself again
it don't mean that you don't pvp, heck someone can do a pvp matche once every 2 month and said he do pvp! how can someone could proove the countrary?
however a player that want to do pvp seriously must informed himself on evey new power, gear, traits, reputation system and all other exploits, "hax" that are discover in the game to be prepared when he will face them ( or used them, pick your choice ).
vaper would be a term that you would known by now if you were just reading the opvpchannel, the pvp forum of cryptic or the zone chat in kerrat ( you rarely see that term in arena since people don't talk much there in pug exept the "GG" at the end of the match ).
people there speak about it for weeks now.
so this just show that your involvement in this part of the game is extremely limited to said the least and also undermined your abilitie to evaluate BO in it entirety, properly.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=528931&page=271
Oh boy, I'm not sure I can answer that quickly, but I will try.
I've been into the MMO game scene since before most people knew the internet existed. I was connecting to the net on a VT100 thru a 12000 baud modem in the early '80s. I had helped developing features on several different MUD's, and was running my own Diku mud and later a short lived UnterMUD before The UnterVerse collapsed, all before I owned a Nintendo. I purposefully omit my professional history, but now due to heath matters I am essentially housebound, so I am free to speak my mind rather then having to always watch my tounge... Ahhh, freedom!
There is one universal truism that you learn when you are the one behind the scenes rather then the player, and that is players don't have any idea what they are talking about. Not really any of them. Even the best have a limited view. It cannot be any other way. Even the developers reach a point where they cannot know it all, and the players never have a clear shot.
Compounded with that, players each individually have their own agendas, will feel they are personally correct in the presence of evidence to the contrary, and will feel owed to them the right to dictate how the game is made, because somehow they must understand everything better then the people who are in charge, that any of the reasoning behind any decision is immediately faulty, and will take it as a sign of low intellect that the developer made a different choice than the player would have.
During my MMO career, I've been the lone Bard in EQ that was able to make anybody's jaw drop, at the exact same time the entire bard community was quitting in droves because they didn't understand the value of 0 downtime (nor the price they had to pay in constant uptime). I was that one Warlock in Vanilla WoW that would sit on a point in AB and solo 2-3 other "OP" classes in the time when it was an open joke that Warlocks were the worst class ever made (I had played an EQ necromancer... I already had training... people were just short sighted) All those Warlock PvP nerfs that happened when most people thought Locks were bad? Sorry all, that was me... Locking down people so hard people would stop trying to take my node...
Now? I came to this game to retire from being hardcore. My joints can't take the abuse anymore, and my health is failing. Still, I can't help but have a different perspective on these things. I was using A2B doffs, and had threads of people telling me how badly they sucked, and now they are all the rage. I was personally among the people who originally thought that beams were broken. Then I did some testing. Beams, it turned out, when you use them right, totally rock. In fact, all this beam popularity? It started... Wait for it!... *DURING* the time that BFaW both didn't crit, *AND* wasn't benefiting from mods... It wasn't broken beams, it was poor playing. Now beams are considered one of the best ways to play. No buffing, in fact nerfing, but clever players finally figured it out. I was one of the ones testing it. Infact, I bought my Gal-R to get over the sting of my accidentally discharging a ship with gear still on her because I was very sleepy after running all the tests. I don't really fly my Galaxy, although I would love to. I fly an Atrox...
Oh yeah, the Atrox... there is another one. 100s of threads telling me the Atrox is only a half step up from a Gal-R! I dove on mine day one, while my KDF was sitting in a VQ and a Kar'Fi, and she is still my #1 PvE ship. I do things in my Catbox that I've never seen done. I beat most tac scorts without blinking. I rank up with your average scimmy (not the peaked out monsters, but your average showing) I do all that and have a full sci layout and nearly 60k hull... I might actually break 60k when I get the fleet version. But... My ship sucks, I can't possibly fly her as well as I say I do... Yeah... My fleetmates know better.
The Galaxy? She is my favorite canon ship, how could she not be? I grew up on Next Gen. She is *MY* Enterprise. I admit, she has problems, and I did mention so earlier on in the thread what I feel they are. I admit I prefer to fly other ships to do what the Gal-R *SHOULD* (not what I *THINK* or *WANT* it should do, what it *REALLY SHOULD* do with its boff layout, eat damage and protect groupmates). I will likely chose something with higher science capability every time. I don't think that is necessarily bad, either. I personally don't prefer a Defiant to a ship that has more sci, either, but I do find that, for some reason, giving a ship the same treatment a Defaint gets for tac and an Intrepid gets for sci doesn't work when you give it the engineering version. I may be listening to to many Vulcans... but to me I can't help but see the logic is not that the ship needs to be changed, engineering needs tweaked so that the layout is more viable, not the layout removed from existence because it shows the inherent weakness in the skill design of engineering. She has very strong powers, but her cooldown management is a mess. Because of conflicting cooldowns it is overly difficult to cope with the influx of engineering boff assignments. Science giggles, they have skills to spare. Tac grumbles about not being able to use all DHC/Turrets, but eventually loads a torp or beam and gets over it. Engineering, "OMFG WHAT DO I DO WITH ALL THESE ENG SLOTS!!!" Ship is not broken, skills are.
Add to that, the Gal-R gets so much fan service, my own included, that everybody and their brother wants one that is the way they envision flying her. That clouds the issue even further. Nobody wants to hear that she won't do tons of DPS, they want her to be a clear cut, no holds barred, winner of awesomeness. Well, great. What will you do when the fancy lock box ship still outdps's her? What will you do when you get beat in PvP? She will never be some sort of mythical best ship ever. She will never be a tactical monster. Hell, I *LOVE* her, but lets be real. She flew around the galaxy filled with civilians and children to do humanitarian and diplomatic missions. She did light research because at the time she was the ship the built for exploring, but they quite often just did preliminary checks on things and sent the data back to Star Fleet to send real researchers. She isn't tac. She isn't sci. She really was... a glorified cruise ship. And that's the canon. I didn't write it. I just watched it, and enjoyed it immensely.
So why am I currently enamored with the Gal-R? Because I love her for the feelings she invokes in me every time I hear Picard say, "Engage!," and because as hard as I try to get away from the challenge of understanding the underdog and seeing if things are really as gloomy as they seem, I can't help it. I need to know.
If it really is as bad as it seems... you can be rest assured I'd be right there complaining. It's bad, yes, but it is nowhere near the level of outrage people show to her. Add a new engineering skill or 2 and things change entirely. unlink some of engineering shared cooldowns and things change entirely.
Extra credit bonus stage: If I'm being totally honest, and opening myself up to be burnt at the stake as a heretic... It's not even really that Eng is underpowered... It's that sci heals are too good... But at this point very integrated into the game... it would be difficult to nerf them correctly without having total player uproar and a period of re-balancing as stats got shifted and people relearned how to play. The reason people aren't thrilled to death to load up on Eng skills is because most of the secondary ones would be for increasing your resistances so damage vanishes, but isntead of actually wanting to use them, instead I'm going for the super power that heals great, clears debuffs, and grants resists as well. Like tac team, sci heals are way too strong for the good of balance, and too ingrained to consider changing lightly. I don't have the answers for what should be done to fix it, but I most certainly can see exactly where the problem is, even tho to fix it would be a major nerf to myself. I certainly don't want to be the one to announce a sci heal nerf, anymore then they want to announce a tac/scort one, so instead we get cruiser command/deflector/flanking bonus buff... And I would guess that the devs will take a similar "buff it to make it right" attitude and add cleanses to eng heals, ending the argument entirely. I don't have a crystal ball, but it certainly stands to reason. They already gave a self cleanse when using EP2* skills doff... perhaps I'm not as clever a prognosticator as I pretend :P
Oh, yeah KASE is hard to parse because its so spread out, you won't get proper reads for people who aren't you, unless they are in range the whole time. Even the span of the 2 generators is too far. Let me see if I can find that parse from my perspective:
http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g362/DarielaScc/galcarkase1_zpsab032aac.png
http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g362/DarielaScc/galcarskase2_zpse7f09cfb.png
And here is a run in my Atrox, not my best showing but I don't have any other KASE with my Catbox ready to go:
http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g362/DarielaScc/catboxkase_zpsec255de9.png
See, and while I had an easier time dealing with probes in the Atrox, and did a hair more DPS, she blew chunks on Donatra. She cloaked over and over and over... Boarding party Gal-r smoked her pretty quick. Aux disables stop cloak. Shield drops increase damage. I'm spitting up to 9 of those things at a time with doffs. They are sometimes armed with point defense. I'm covered in FAW and DEM with marion. I have to manually deal with shields, I can do that PvE. I have to watch boarding parties on myself, I do that anyway to sqeeze AP:B on my Atrox. I'm having problems saying the ship is not effective, let alone as broken as most of the posts on this thread would have you belive, and I'm starting to think I can prove it, as well.
I haven't even tried to see what I can do with A2B yet, other then my first post in this thread where I did 12.something just tossing TRIBBLE on. Who knows what I will come up with once I try to mix it and the boarding parties.
Edit: My Atrox hit 18.8k ISE yesterday, for reference... broken ship my eye... (still only 17.5k DPS league... but TRIBBLE it I'm calling my extra fluff DPS when I can, it makes my e-endowments so big and swollen!)
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
That was a lot more detailed then I was expecting lol.
The Galaxy is probably my favorite ship as well. I also grew up watching TNG.
damage control doffs removed this advantage, every other cruiser now had more eng slot flexibility then the galaxy R did without damage control, and a galaxy with damage control had way more then it needed, and that ENS eng started really having a poor opportunity cost. since it had so little tac or sci, there wasn't that many other doffs that would be useful for it, back then.
then came along the moving of AtB from the EPt system cooldown to the AtX system cooldown. now you can run 2 different EPt skills, and AtB. only then did this flavor of the year(s) AtB build take over the damage dealing cruiser game, before it was a crazy person niche. with this new high tier other cruisers can be pushed to thanks to this, the value of every single additional eng skill over about 6 comes heavily into question. if you run an AtB build, your trying to deal damage, what 7th or 8th eng skill would help you more then additional tac or sci? what would benefit your damage, force multiplication, or survivability more? the answer is not more eng.
in fact destroyers that have a COM tac, and can have a LTC and LT eng are better then 6 eng skill cruisers, what you can get with a COM tac is far better then anything you could set up with a COM eng. 2 LT eng might be even better, then you have a COM tac and a LTC sci. the only reason cruisers can compete with these ships is because they have an 8th weapons and a bit more hitpoints. at least the top 3 beam boats are not cruisers though, but ships with a COM tac. like the scimitar, breen chel, jem dread, jem heavy, vet ships, even though many of those are down a weapon.
nothing thats found in the eng tree is part of some secret recipe for the perfect vap or DPS. nothing has some exaggerated effect when combined just right with other powers, like tac and sci are filthy with. EWP cant stop anything you need to stop thanks to APO and buffed EPtE, can hardly be wielded by a fat high inertia cruiser at all, and the skill that literally every single person runs, HE, clears it easily. DEM3 is no APO3 when it comes to damage dealing. AB does nearly nothing, also HE cleared. ES is a team heal skill fit for a heal boat not a dps boat, ET3 interferes with TT, and if a galaxy ran it that would literally mean your running a ship with 1 less station power then everyone else, given you have to run ET1 on the ship. you cant be serious, considering running a 3rd EPt skill there, id love to watch you accidentally go without EPtS for 30 seconds, and thats still got terrible opportunity cost compared to a tac or sci skill even if you pull it off perfectly. all you need is RSP2 and DEM3, 2 AtB, and EPtS1 and ether EPtE/W1. theres no other valuable skill in that tree for a dps cruiser. not only that, if your running a 7 or 8 eng power cruiser, your proboly missing out on ether a LTC tac or sci skill. its not an understatement to say that whatever skill you could slot there is the skill the whole rest of your ship will pivot around, and be built to exploit the best. be it doffed TBR, GW, FAW3, APO, any of those skills can make your ship an order of magnitude more dangerous, and you would consider not running any of them for a 7th eng skill that serves no useful purpose? and THEN there the galaxy R, it has 8 eng skill, its hard to articulate just how far behind that leaves it.
on the other side of the coin theres the whole healer tank role the galaxy R could take, and its epically bad at that too. the best heal boat setup is a COM and ENS eng, and an LTC and TL sci. or a step beyond that, COM and LTC eng, LTC and ENS sci, ENS tac that the recluse has. the galaxy R station setup is even farther from these healing ideals then it is far from tac cruiser optimal.
is it still possible to kill things or heal things or tank in a galaxy R? yes, but dont for a second think every single other cruiser option can do it an order of magnitude better. if there was a single thing the galaxy R was actually good at, or above average at that would be different, this thread wouldn't be warranted, but theres not. its always worse then something else in every possible use for it.
Its a PITA because of the weapons drain, not that its a LT slot or because it has two Tactical consoles. Even with six weapons the drain on it is rough, especially considering that its more important to have high aux on it than weapon power. Its okay, understand,you didn't read the part about the drain.
Well, I am glad we have experts in "who-is-what" like you here, to do determine who has the ability to discuss anything, "in its entirety properly". STO is now safe from those who are inferior and shouldn't be allowed to say that they are "X". I am so glad that you can route charlatans out with your infinite wisdom. All hail the expert/purist!!!
At the risk of sounding personal (since I feel that it has been personal for quite some time upon me), I really believe that as much as you think that you think that you have the ability to call my PvP status into question, you bring up your own sense of elitism. Because someone doesn't act as you doesn't make them less relevant. Just a week ago you were somewhat agitated that I didn't memorize every fact of your gaming life, like that people normally do something like that in regards to MMO playership, when in actuality I would argue that such a thing is abnormal. Really, is this so important that primary aspects of life take a back seat and those that aren't as whatever-you-want-to-call-it are lesser?
If not following the PvP forums like a rabbi memorizes the Torah and not spending time on the PvP chat (whichever one you are on) makes me lesser than you, then as we say in my area..... whatever.
I've seen the PvP community up in arms over TRIBBLE I beat when I was a nub at PvP. Population numbers don't indicate correctness of information. "Oh my! the Cheese group! They are nothing but OP using every broken power in the game and are unbeatable!!!!eleven!!! Yeah... beat them my second time against them in a pug, as a PvP nub. The people in the PvP community were just as certain beams sucked, too. And AtB. Just because you PvP doesn't mean you get mystic knowledge handed to you, it just means you have learned a different skill set.
Again, players do not have access to enough information to be as sure of themselves as they are, and none of us know the system well enough that we can't be surprised by it.
And another thing, hyperbole does not make your arguments any stronger. "Order of Magnitude" obviously doesn't mean what you say it does. A DPS cruiser is most certainly not an order of magnitude better then a Gal-R. It's slightly better at doing damage. Slightly.
An order of magnitude would be putting a FACR at around 150k DPS in my hands...
And I am not an order of magnitude better a healer in my Ambassador, either. I'm slightly better. Yes, in a game of combat, slightly can be all it takes, but lets be real here. This game is not balanced on the razor's edge. A couple k DPS is not that important when it is possible to make even the lowest DPS ships in the game do double the DPS that the system expects out of you.
PvP? Sure. She might be the worst pick, I'm not even really trying to debate that. My point is that inevitably there will always be a worst ship. My point is it isn't as bleak as it seems, it certainly isn't as bad as this thread would have you believe. And my last point is if the ship really turns out to be that bad, it isn't the boff layout that is to blame, it is the skills contained within the boff layout that need addressed.
I'd prefer to live in a world where a heavy engineering cruiser was a choice to fly, not ban them from existence because engineering skills lack diversity. It's the wrong fix, and anybody who is being honest and not just trying to turn the Gal-R into her own personal fantasy toy should want the same thing for the game.
Edit: She doesn't need to be the best at anything to be viable. The Defiant is not the best at anything. The Intrepid is not the best at anything. The Galaxy just needs to be as competetive in her arena as those ships are in theirs. I admit whole heartedly that she is not currently. I just also know that the difference is not anywhere near as severe as people claim, and that any number of simple, natural fixes would change this debate right around, no changes to the ship herself needed.
Edit2: The only other argument that even approaches logic is the "No ship should be built like a Defiant/Intrepid/Galaxy, and that is inherantly the problem." I can actually see things from that viewpoint. Is it true? Maybe. If all 3 ship types were deemed broken, then yes, change all 3. If the other 2 are not broken, then by default the logic shows the Galaxy is not broken, and the skills are and need to be addressed. Then you are helping other ships and the game as a whole.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
i am well aware of the power drain of BO, but once again it seem to me that you don't.
why? your weapons number have nothing to do with the drain that impose you the BO power, meaning BO will not drain more because you got more weapons on the ship.
BO drain 50 weapons power, regardless of your overcapping and numbers of weapons.
when you fire BO there is only 1 weapon that fire and it is the one that is overloaded.
of course if you use it incorectly, like fire bo right after firing you others weapons, here the number of weapons you have will have an effect on the damage dealt by bo.
example you were at 125 weapons power, you fire some of your beam, let said 5, so that make aproximately on the "nosemeter" -50 weapons power, so you found yourself at 75.
if you fire a BO at that time, no only the damage dealt by BO will be very crappy du to you power level in weapons power but you will then end up at 25 weapons power in the end, wich will be very to long to recover and ruin your dps afterward.
if you don't use it incorrectly like in the example above, bo will deal more damage and will be less of a burden on weapons drain.
however, unlike what you think, drain is not the problem of bo.
why? well if it were, cruiser pilot with an engie captain would be the king of BO, woudn't you said?
cruiser abilitie: weapons system efficiency
engi captain abilitie: nadion inversion
BO use without abilitie: 125 -50 = 75 weapons power left
BO use with cruiser command weapons efficiency: 125 - ( 50 -25% ) = 85 weapons power left
BO use with nadion inversion: 105 weapons power left
BO use with cruiser command and nadion: 115 weapons power left
and i am even not speaking about auxtobat and leech console, batteries ect that will reduced that even further
however all this will not make a engie captain in a cruiser deal huge amounth of dps with it, even with extremely limited power drain.
the answers is easy to anderstand, the number of tactical bridge officer that allow you to slot some attack pattern with a hight version of BO ( at least version 2 ), your number of tactical console and finally your captain abilitie, like APA, FOMM, tactical fleet ARE the abilitie that will make BO worht the shot if you allow me the expression.
you will not be able to have that damage potential with ship that only got a lt tact slot, 2 tact console and in wich you put an engie captain EVEN with an hypothetical ZERO power drain.
and of course this is better used in pvp, bo is a pvp power, that goes without saying, killing a mob in 1 shot have absolutely no interest and is a waste of your abilitie in the long term.
if the power drain would remain the same, but cryptic suddently decided to give this abilitie 3 time it current dps, would you still said it is not worth it because of the power drain?
i don't think so, and i proove to you above that having limited power drain wil not render that power more valid.
so it not a PITA because of the power drain, but because of the bad combination of ship and captain career and use in pve content.
and i am glad that you finally open your eyes to what i really am, a talented genious with infinite wisdom who is never wrong!
it took you some time tho!
but since i am a forgiven person, it is with great pleasure that i am giving you the privilege to adress to me as "master" from now on.
sht shtttt! don't thank me! i am well aware of how hard it is to inferior people like you to get there in the first place, so it is well deserved.
ok, on a more serious note now, calling me a expert/purist elitist isn't really going to earn you any points in the discussion, you known that don't you?
if you want to criticize a power in this game, you must do it with the full perspective of it potentiality given every combination possible, wich you do not.
all what you said about it is, it is a pita when i use it with my cruiser, never i have seen you give me a comment of how it fare when someone using it on you for example.
it just look like a pve centric view to me, and the fact that you didn't meet or known what a vaper is, is just a confirmation.
you don't informed yourself about new things that are introduced into the game and don't pratice pvp exept with some selected friend of your.
how did you came to the conclusion that you have the full perspective to known how bo should be with that?
it is not about acting like me, it is about your personal involvment and knownledge on the question that make your opinion less relevant because it miss some critical part of the game experience.
we are arguing for what 200, 300 pages? i stop counting after a while.
with that in mind i would have thaught that you might at least remember who i am and the ship and weapons i got since we have some long discussion about it.
just like i known for a long time that you fly an exelsior with en engi and a single cannon build, nothing spectacular or very detailled and maybe not accurate anymore.
but i do remember.
i found it abnormal or a specific troll manner to completely forget a person with wich you speak and argue with for about 300 pages in a blink of a eyes.
but you might have the Alzheimer desease, who known?
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=528931&page=271
More Tac BO options
More science options
More tac console slots
special powers added to the sships hull....what ever many to choose from .. From Canon
and come to think of it we dont have a 45% arc Heavy beam bank either to match up to the dual heavy cannon
We dont have a Beam rapid fire to equal cannons crit chance either
Beam overload is so weak its a PvP only skill useless in PvE...we need a new skill to replace it
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
The Galaxy, in all its forms, needs only one thing: a nerf.
Granted, the Miranda and Excelsior and Constitution need a MASSIVE nerf. But face it, the Galaxy's like seventy years old. It has no business being used. At least not by NPCs. Sure, let it be flown by players, maybe even be viable. But it shouldn't be the most awesomeness DPS invinciboat ever. Although I do agree that we need heavy beam arrays.
Guys? What if they gave a tactical mode ability/gimmick to the Hull Separation console, much like the new mechanic in the Solanae/Dyson ships in the anniversary FE?
It kinda makes sense for your Boff seating to change when you Hull Separate because you are essentially moving to a different bridge (the battle bridge) to command. This will mainly affect the Odyssey, Galaxy, Fleet Galaxy-X (when it comes out), and the Prometheus-class ships.
(UFP) Ragnar
*45 years old. and if it doesn't have a right to be in the game, not a single canon ship, thats are all at least 45 to 40 years old, have a right too. all those classes were built to last 100 years and majorly overhauled every 20. some structural limitation that would prevent the incorporation of new technology would be needed to truly obsolete any of those designs. such a limitation is present on ships like the excelsior though, they cant even be equipped with phaser arrays with out half its saucer being rebuilt. they have no excuse for lasting this long
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32UGD0fV45g :rolleyes:
pvp community doesn't agree on much, and theres a wide variety of ability between its players. the big differences between player tends to be how well they can counter 'cheese', its not possible to paint the entire community as united on its opinion on anything being cheese.
beams did suck, in the last 6 to 12 months a lot of power creep has benefited beams, and changed things considerably. cruisers with 4 tac consoles, AtB change, leach and how easy it is to overcap, buff to EPtW's damage its whole duration, nukara console + beam acc, cruiser drain res commands, spire consoles that reduce drain, and extremely powerful versions of FAW latterly. they all add up, and right now rule pvp like they do pve.
im not a DPS parseing jock, but i do know the best numbers the galaxy can generate arent even half of what an avenger can produce, and a fraction of what a scimitar can. if at least double isn't an order of magnitude, i dont know what is. the problem is, at least in pvp were there is constant heals and regeneration, you need a certain level of DPS, or your not going to even break even with your target's healing
there doesn't need to be a worst ship, theres not a worst escort or sci ship. the aquarius may be down on hitpoints, but its not down on damage dealing compared to any common escort. theres nothing wrong with the defient and intrepid, they dont suffer from crippling system cooldown issues. i have set out in great detail how far behind the ship is, ive yet to see an actual rebutle or an error pointed out in my analysis. other then no, i dont think its that bad.
What should be happening is that when we buy a ship the weapons slots and everything are all laid out, but we are given a number of device slots which WE (the player) can choose where we want them to go. For example, you buy a galaxy and get given 10 console slots and i choose to put 4 in engineering, 2 sci and 4 tac. someone else might choose 3 tac, 3 sci, 4 tac etc. we the gamer, should be allowed to build the ship to our own needs as we all have different play styles and needs. the ships are far too rigged and unflexible.
Thats just my thought anyways