The only way your solution would work is to massively increase by a factor of 10 the Fleet credit prices for vendor doffs - so that is your solution? Experience is not a solution - on 1 toon I have 20 million+
So create Doff Marks, you get a variable number on each successful completion or crit of an assignment, more for rarer assignments.
They can then be used grind your doffs.
Dilithium is not the best solution and the doff grinder is not the problem, the Fleet Vendor is, you accept that as the truth. So the solution is to be found in Doff Vendor by changing other parts of the supply chain you actually create the possibility of cascade changes in other parts of the system you didn't intend to be affected. It's very simple.
In fact you could create a Marks or special XP system produced from assignment types to fill pots for specific types of doffs, so for example Marks or XP from you Engineering assignments can be used to grind whatever doffs you want specifically in to engineering doffs.
Let me tell you why the doff system changes will stick in my opinion:
1) to Maintain the value of this End Game Mechanic - Mr Stahl has made clear that end game is his priority.
2)As a time gate on Starbases - doff requirements allow a significant time gate to these projects that are advancing at a much more rapid pace than they planned.
Don't tell me that they are not - My solo fleet experiment "Starbase 001" FULLY completed STO's first solo Tier 3 starbase more than 8 days ago.
If I could comlete a tier 3 starbase by myself more than a week ago - when they were designed with 25 people in mind - they are moving VERY rapidly.
Mr Stahl intends these projects to be long-term - END GAME features - the High doff requirements are one way to slow them down.
What he wants is to maintain the status quo and keep the rich being rich and the new players being poor, that is back to 10 million per Purple DOFF.
Also we have a indication of how much a Purple should cost in EC as we can replicate Purple Emergency DOFFs, its one Million EC, current exchange prices are in line with it, even if more expensive as the Replicator does mark up over base cost.
Fleet DOFFs are not a issue since Starbase projects require large amounts of then, they might became a issue 3-4 months from now but Exchange Profiteers are the ones complaining because they lost control over their market rigging due the influx of DOFFs from sources they cannot control and their inability to price fix due to the high number of DOFFs in the system.
Well what they need to remember is Doffs themselves were not designed with the idea of profiteering scams. They were designed as a mini-game to fulfill assignments that allow you to eventually benefit improving your ship and ground abilities. They were never meant to be exploited for EC's that you can do so is all well and good but don't go moaning because the niche you exploit is not longer profitable. That is business.
Not a fan of locking up my stored items until tier 5. I have grinded the heck out of IGE and I have never had the PSG drop. Oh I have 3-4 at least of each and every other proto, but not this one. Now I feel like I have to run IGE hourly until 7 starts so I can have the complete set and not have to wait to grind to tier 5.
I also literally have hundreds of EDC, as well as RBS and PBS. Not liking that I wont have access to them. I use them in a crunch if I need dilithium or EC. They are more or less my savings account. Now I need to make a choice to cash out or let it roll with out really knowing what the outcome would be if I let it roll.
Dont get me wrong, I LOVE the idea of being able to finally purchase the PSG, but I just feel like there could have been a better way then having to now grind again when I have been grinding for EDC etc... hoping one day to turn them over for the only ONE thing I need.
(I see that dastahl mentioned something about changes. But see something concrete, blog #8 is still the defining designed.)
This post shows a perfect example of how the Omega Reputation system punishes players who have put in extraordinary efforts into getting Mk XII gear but is mistreated by the random number generator. Yes, the current system punishes these player. They have to way 2-3 months more before they can get the missed Mk XII piece of the set. And the new system is a reward for the new STF player. They have a definitely more determinate systems in order to get their gear.
And the thing that really bothers me most of all is that Cryptic did not appear to see the consequences of this system. It's just mind boggling to me. As I said in my first post in this thread, I knew exactly what the player responses would be after I read the blog entry. I didn't have to think about or ponder it for a time. It was obvious. And it turns out I was correct.
Fleet DOFFs are not a issue since Starbase projects require large amounts of then, they might became a issue 3-4 months from now but Exchange Profiteers are the ones complaining because they lost control over their market rigging due the influx of DOFFs from sources they cannot control and their inability to price fix due to the high number of DOFFs in the system.
Let me tell you why the doff system changes will stick in my opinion:
1) to Maintain the value of this End Game Mechanic - Mr Stahl has made clear that end game is his priority.
2)As a time gate on Starbases - doff requirements allow a significant time gate to these projects that are advancing at a much more rapid pace than they planned.
Don't tell me that they are not - My solo fleet experiment "Starbase 001" FULLY completed STO's first solo Tier 3 starbase more than 8 days ago.
If I could comlete a tier 3 starbase by myself more than a week ago - when they were designed with 25 people in mind - they are moving VERY rapidly.
Mr Stahl intends these projects to be long-term - END GAME features - the High doff requirements are one way to slow them down.
So modify the fleet system. Doffs are not the exclusive plaything of fleets... players without fleets or in small fleets use them for purposes other than fleets.
You lost the argument pages ago no amount of bolding your text is going to change the fact.
You admitted the problem is with the fleet vendor, tinkering with other parts of the system will as happens in real world economics cause more problems than it solves.
Btw... Fleet Action scoring is set up differently in every Fleet Action and is not entirely based on DPS, but rather objective scoring.
I've asked the team to come up with a scoring chart so that you can see what different objectives mean from a score perspective (for example in some fleet actions interactions are worth a lot of points and that has nothing to do with DPS). A lot of the Fleet Actions do value "Kills" in scoring, but we are reviewing that as well.
In addition, we have decided to nix the X2 Dilithium bonus for Gold and instead provide a x2 Purple gear and keep the Dilithium consistent across all players.
well: interaction can only happen when out of combat (not when tanking while in red alert) hence he who kills the quickest will win the interaction race. Funnily this is the same guy who can move the quickest out of aggro range and on to the next objective.
last time we brought up better matchmaking in the PvP queues, and better scoreboards, we were told that this required new tech. Since there hasn't been an update on this, am I to understand this tech is now in?
Please keep in mind. If my healing cruiser, heals an escort, the escort lives to do more damage and score the kill. My healing, therefore, lowers my chances of getting to first spot. This is a terrible design, in a game with the holy trinity. The same goes for SNB or all CC abilities. Unless healing a teammate makes up for the lack of dps/kill score in the rewards calculation, rewarding first place with more gear, DIL etc. is a horrible idea, imv.
However, I've been barking up this tree for a long time. Maybe nao is the time to change a few things for the better. So thank you for finally responding to this particular concern, and yes I would love to hear your teams insights into the background. While we're at it, if calculation about contributions to mission success are on the table, please don't forget PvP, the tech could improve that aspect of STO by a lot.
PS.: I have completed all first place accolades with Sci and Eng toons, i think i have a reasonably good idea how this works in practice.
You yourself said your experience doing this was miserable and burned you out.
You completing something like this is a statistical outlier, not an indication that the entire system is flawed and advancing too rapidly.
Seriously? Going to try that just to keep Doff exchange prices artificially high? I just lost a little respect for you.
Indeed he already admitted and boasted about the fact that his underlying interest in all of this is his personal profiteering and manipulation of the EC market,
Seeing this niche collapse would be bad for him so like the cartels and tycoons of old he is trying to cajole the governing body into interfering with the markets natural dynamics. Corporatism at it's best :P
Btw... Fleet Action scoring is set up differently in every Fleet Action and is not entirely based on DPS, but rather objective scoring.
I've asked the team to come up with a scoring chart so that you can see what different objectives mean from a score perspective (for example in some fleet actions interactions are worth a lot of points and that has nothing to do with DPS). A lot of the Fleet Actions do value "Kills" in scoring, but we are reviewing that as well.
In addition, we have decided to nix the X2 Dilithium bonus for Gold and instead provide a x2 Purple gear and keep the Dilithium consistent across all players.
How will you overcome the fact that KDF fleet action queues are either extremely long waits if not fruitless? ... Serious question, btw, as its a serious problem.
First to Boglejam: Yes it was a very hard and grueling project - but it should not be for any fleet with more than 10 people - more than 25 should be a breeze - more than 100 and it's going on become too simple, too easy, too fast. My next bit will apply to both of you.
Indeed he already admitted and boasted about the fact that his underlying interest in all of this is his personal profiteering and manipulation of the EC market,
Seeing this niche collapse would be bad for him so like the cartels and tycoons of old he is trying to cajole the governing body into interfering with the markets natural dynamics. Corporatism at it's best :P
You sir like others are making exaggerated claims that are completely false. I currently grind lots of commons into greens and sell them on the exchange - soon that will STOP with the price increases - so if your logic and false accusations were correct and I was trying to profitieer under this new system I should be the one MOST against it - not for it!!
First to Boglejam: Yes it was a very hard and grueling project - but it should not be for any fleet with more than 10 people - more than 25 should be a breeze - more than 100 and it's going on become too simple, too easy, too fast. My next bit will apply to both of you.
You sir like others are making exaggerated claims that are completely false. I currently grind lots of commons into greens and sell them on the exchange - soon that will STOP with the price increases - so if your logic and false accusations were correct and I was trying to profitieer under this new system I should be the one MOST against it - not for it!!
you need to re-think your slanted arguments.
Lol, aren't you already profiteering from the current prices!? and would you not stand to lose out if the prices bottomed out, which is what you seem to be overly concerned with.
The point is Doff's are not the playthings of fleets everyone can use them, you already accepted the problem is with fleet vendors, why is it you cannot accept that the best solution is to modify them?
Admit it you know that the current ludicrous increase in dilithium prices on the grinder is not the solution that is required to fix the problems with the fleet doff vendor.
It is your viewpoint that is seen by most on this thread as slanted, you know that it's irrational to argue that changing the grinder is the best way to deal with a problem with the fleet vendor.
First to Boglejam: Yes it was a very hard and grueling project - but it should not be for any fleet with more than 10 people - more than 25 should be a breeze - more than 100 and it's going on become too simple, too easy, too fast.
Sorry, you can't use your one-off experiment as evidence of anything. Exept maybe that its evidence that one guy getting a starbase to tier III by himslef is a really bad idea.
You have no idea (other than your own limited observations) of how fast other fleets are moving thru starbases, and you have no access to the metrics Cryptic uses.
I really don't know what to think of your stance on this issue anymore.
Luckily, your stance doesn't really affect mine - a 50x price increase in ANY system, all at once, is a very bad idea. Couple that with additional dilithium charges in areas of the game that did not have them before and it becomes fairly obvious what the design intent of this is - to force casual players to spend real money to buy zen and then to convert the zen to dilithium. Either that, or the casual player fleet can just accept that they will not advance starbases and will never be able to grind enough dilithium for max level gear.
Luckily, your stance doesn't really affect mine - a 50x price increase in ANY system, all at once, is a very bad idea. Couple that with additional dilithium charges in areas of the game that did not have them before and it becomes fairly obvious what the design intent of this is - to force casual players to spend real money to buy zen and then to convert the zen to dilithium.
It's so glaringly obvious and the fact that none of the devs have tackled this point or dispelled our arguments with regards to it is a continual cause for concern. Especially considering by their own admission that Dilithium was designed simply as means to help F2P to access items on the C-Store.
Bogle I have stood by you on other doff issues and you have stood by me - so I will stand by you again - the increase in grinding costs is excessive - at least for common to greens - this is something that could be modified. Perhaps a 5x or 10x increase to 100 dilth for the commons to greens. This is something i could get behind.
Blues and purples I am fine with the increase - that won't change.
Sorry, you can't use your one-off experiment as evidence of anything. Exept maybe that its evidence that one guy getting a starbase to tier III by himself is a really bad idea.
You have no idea (other than your own limited observations) of how fast other fleets are moving thru starbases, and you have no access to the metrics Cryptic uses.
The way the system is implemented, it doesn't prevent a player from going all the way to Tier 5. The only limitation is gathering resources.
I myself got a Federation and KDF starbase past Level 2 and about 18,000 XP away from unlocking the Tier 3 Starbase. Though that was as far I was planning to go actively. But the thing is, this revisement is just going to slow down everyone across the board.
We've heard about a few players reaching higher tiers as solo players.
This is not the norm.
What i do as a casual player is closer to the norm (but still more than most casual players). I joined the game a few months ago, I spend the time I have on here which is usually 3-5 hours a day on the weekdays, and more on the weekends.
In that time I have managed to start a fleet it has a few members but I am the only one contributing, I do all the daily stuff to grind out fleet marks and the like and I've barely got to 1/2 through Teir 0.
Alongside that I've also of course been grinding STF's. I have 3 char's two at VA one at Cmdr.
Fleet DOFFs are not a issue since Starbase projects require large amounts of then, they might became a issue 3-4 months from now but Exchange Profiteers are the ones complaining because they lost control over their market rigging due the influx of DOFFs from sources they cannot control and their inability to price fix due to the high number of DOFFs in the system.
But fleet doffs allowed me to double my doff related EC income.
And trust me, I've not been playing any fleet action with my main doffing character for weeks, but I'm still making far more EC than I would with scarce regular doffs. That's definitely not the issue, if you play smart almost free items coming from any useless surpluses (here cxp) are always good to take.
The real issue is that the devs estimate that there are too many ways to get doffs, period. This statement isn't negociable. Discussing that is useless, it won't change but we can push for another kind of change giving the same results. Thus, players are trying to make a deal with them: leave the free academy doff as they are on holodeck currently and nerf the fleet ones, because the white academy pack is something everyone can use. Fleet doffs are an unrelated reward people get from playing non doff content.
That's the deal. If you have a better idea to reduce the number of doff on the markets the devs could accept be my guest. I knew something like that would happen sooner or later, i've even created a thread proving that the fleet doffs were about to ruin the doff system. This is happening right now and the devs are trying to stop the leak. Now enjoy the consequences of your previous whinning about fleet doffs asking for not bound ones. Everyone will take a slap in the face. For your very own little confort.
And FYI this change as it is will increase my profits far more than nerfing fleet doffs. So I have no interest seeing this happening but I still want it to happen.
I have through math and what I do in stfs confirmed that the new system will be better than the old. I usually play about 20 of each of the stfs at a time on a toon. That is to say i play 20 times a single stf (cure space normal 20 times, cure space elite 20 times, etc.). What follows is assuming that there will be a Into the Hive elite, normal and a space version elite, normal. And following my system of 20 playthroughs for each stf.
With the old system (3 normal ground, 3 normal space, 3 elite ground, 3 elite space) I would play 120 normal stfs and 120 elite stfs. The normal stfs award usually 480 dil and the elite 1100. Thererfore I would get 57600 dil for normal gameplay and 132000 dil for elite gameplay; a total of 189600 dil.
With the new system according to the devs if each normal playthrough gives 240 dil and 20 marks and elite playthrough gives 480 dil and 60 marks and if you need 50 marks for 500dil. Since there are now 8 stfs then I would do 160 normal and 160 elite. Therefore normal gives 38400 dil and 3200 omega marks and elite gives 76800 dil and 9600 omega marks. Now if 50 marks equal 500 dil then i can convert the marks 256 times equaling 128000 dil. The grand total is 243200. The total with the new system gives 53600 more dil then the previous and that is not including the dil from the fleet events.
By numbers alone the new reputation system is far superior to the old.
Your entire post is moot. You are doing more stfs in the new system versus the old system, which counters the 53,600 dil ore you would gain. The new STF branch has nothing to do with the reputation system and thus, you are still left with less dil per stf played.
prior to S7:
normal stf: 160*480=76,800 and 160 edc
elite stf: 160*1100=176,000 and 320 edc
edc yield: 480 edc / 10 edc per 1056 dil = 48*1056=50,688
total yield: 303,488
after S7:
normal stf: 160*240=38,400 and 3200 marks
elite stf:160*480=76,800 and 9600 marks
marks yield: 12,800/50 marks per 500 dil = 256*500=128,000
total yield: 243,200
So, going by guaranteed drops alone... the end user is a loser and not a winner as you suggest. Please keep in mind that this does not factor in the rare tech and salvage drops that can be refined for 1056 dil each or the proto tech and salvage drops that can be refined for 2304 dil each. Plus, add in the fact that the t5 dilithium conversion is a project, which means that it will require a project space and x amount of time. Tell me again how we're better off? Yeah. Thanks for playing.
Sorry you have no idea about me - 9 times out of 10 I list my stuff just BELOW the current price. I do NOT buy up stuff on the exchange to inflate prices - so people do - I don't.
I rarely - as in maybe 5 total in my 3000 hrs on this game have sold a purple - so that is not the issue either.
How long have you been on this game? at the begining of this year long before Season 6 Romulan ale used to cost $350k per bottle - always - then they added it to the drop on a crit for confiscating contraband and it dropped to like $10k. I expect they will do something similar with the Targ Heart.
Also I don't have 1 lock box ship - not one! 11 c-store ships - Most of the reason i have a lot of EC is that I am not spending it on shinny things - I did spend several Hundred million on the starbase but that is it.
I have already relented - even though you people keep making outlandish claims about me - that the price increase to grind commons to greens is excessive and needs to be re-worked.
Please don't try to use me as an excuse - based on false claims of what I do - as a reason things should change.
But fleet doffs allowed me to double my doff related EC income.
And trust me, I've not been playing any fleet action with my main doffing character for weeks, but I'm still making far more EC than I would with scarce regular doffs. That's definitely not the issue, if you play smart almost free items coming from any useless surpluses (here cxp) are always good to take.
The real issue is that the devs estimate that there are too many ways to get doffs, period. This statement isn't negociable. Discussing that is useless, it won't change but we can push for another kind of change giving the same results. Thus, players are trying to make a deal with them: leave the free academy doff as they are on holodeck currently and nerf the fleet ones, because the white academy pack is something everyone can use. Fleet doffs are an unrelated reward people get from playing non doff content.
That's the deal. If you have a better idea to reduce the number of doff on the markets the devs could accept be my guest. I knew something like that would happen sooner or later, i've even created a thread proving that the fleet doffs were about to ruin the doff system. This is happening right now. Now enjoy the consequences of your previous whinning about fleet doffs asking for not bound ones. Everyone will take a slap in the face. For your very own little confort.
If their estimation was that there are too many common and uncommon doffs in the marketplace due to fleet vendors then it makes 0 sense to slap a 5000/6000 dil cost on the production of one purple doff.
It took me a lot of EC and Dil to get a a good crew of purples on my ship as it is. I certainly cannot see any oversupply of them on my end.
As I said this isn't a solution to the Fleet doff vendor it's just another dilithium sink and we all know the reasons for it are not to solve a problem with the fleet vendor.
But fleet doffs allowed me to double my doff related EC income.
And trust me, I've not been playing any fleet action with my main doffing character for weeks, but I'm still making far more EC than I would with scarce regular doffs. That's definitely not the issue, if you play smart almost free items coming from any useless surpluses (here cxp) are always good to take.
The real issue is that the devs estimate that there are too many ways to get doffs, period. This statement isn't negociable. Discussing that is useless, it won't change but we can push for another kind of change giving the same results. Thus, players are trying to make a deal with them: leave the free academy doff as they are on holodeck currently and nerf the fleet ones, because the white academy pack is something everyone can use. Fleet doffs are an unrelated reward people get from playing non doff content.
That's the deal. If you have a better idea to reduce the number of doff on the markets the devs could accept be my guest. I knew something like that would happen sooner or later, i've even created a thread proving that the fleet doffs were about to ruin the doff system. This is happening right now and the devs are trying to stop the leak. Now enjoy the consequences of your previous whinning about fleet doffs asking for not bound ones. Everyone will take a slap in the face. For your very own little confort.
And FYI this change as it is will increase my profits far more than nerfing fleet doffs. So I have no interest seeing this happening but I still want it to happen.
If anyone wants to talk about a real master of the doff exchange - this is a guy to have the chat with. Compared to Diogene0 - he is a Blue whale and I am just a minnow!
I still think there is a better way to manage doff transactions @ the upgrinder/downgrinder.
My solution would also allow people to chose what type of Doff's they receive.
I would implement Doff Recruitment XP as reward given on all assignments in varying volume depending on the assignment.
Doff recruitment XP (or marks if you prefer) would be split up depending on the type of mission it was awarded from, XP/Marks from an Engineering assignment would go into an Engineering pot.
You could then trade in that XP or marks at the vendor on SFA to grind up or down with the added benefit of being able to chose which department of specialization you wanted to get back.
(You could offer the same functionality at the fleet grinder too) and all this could be done without impacting the dilithium economy which I think you all accept is not the most efficient way to deal with any of the percieved doff problems.
I'm done with this conversation most of you guys are whiners that all you want is for the business to say here do what you want with the game. Let me tell you ITS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN. You can either make do or if STO is such a horrible game and the devs are so evil and are like parents who don't let you have everything you want then go play another game and torture them till they tell you to shove it.
I'm satisfied with the game and am willing to see how it changes. Life is not fair life is not easy life doesn't give you everything you want for free. Don't like it? Thats life STO team you have a loyal customer here. And I understand how you need to please the casual and competitve player and keep the money flowing that you need to keep making this game better.
a 50x price increase in ANY system, all at once, is a very bad idea. Couple that with additional dilithium charges in areas of the game that did not have them before and it becomes fairly obvious what the design intent of this is - to force casual players to spend real money to buy zen and then to convert the zen to dilithium. Either that, or the casual player fleet can just accept that they will not advance starbases and will never be able to grind enough dilithium for max level gear.
THIS 100 % This.
Recipe for kicking you players in the Jimmies -
. First nerf Science into OBLIVION,
. Then make STFs all about DPS.
. Then introduce respawn penalties while not addressing things like invisible torpedos.
. Then force players to play STFs over, and over and over again........FOR A CHANCE at high end gear.
. Then when people finally start to get STF sets after grinding their collective asses off, lets change em, nerf em...Or just leave em underwhelming.
.Add plenty of C store and lock box cheese, (for a hefty fee of course), add some of that said cheese in lock boxes for the a chance the other faction can get em.
.Ask players what they want next, ignore it and give them something they don't want at all.
.Come up with some asinine reason to start the whole STF grind all over again and make it
sound like it was something WE WANTED.....
.Reduce dilithium rewards and but INCREASE dilithium charges through-ought the game where none existed before.
.Starbase projects not making everyone miserable yet? Wait, here come the emissaries.
(And who in the hell asked for emissaries anyways? We wanted the KDF to be finished so we could play playable Rommies........)
.Want those fleet ships you ground so hard for? CHA CHING !
You know, rather than adding a new Romulan sector on the map for season 7, Why not stay true to intention and add Rura Penthe instead? That would make more sense.
Name season 7 "Off to Rura Penthe with ya....." Cause quite frankly you've sentenced all but the richest, or hardcore of us to the dilithium mines and locked anything entertaining behind ever increasing dilithium costs....
I'm waiting for the death penalty with a dilithium charge to resurrect your character.....
. First nerf Science into OBLIVION,
. Then make STFs all about DPS.
. Then introduce respawn penalties while not addressing things like invisible torpedos.
. Then force players to play STFs over, and over and over again........FOR A CHANCE at high end gear.
. Then when people finally start to get STF sets after grinding their collective asses off, lets change em, nerf em...Or just leave em underwhelming.
.Add plenty of C store and lock box cheese, (for a hefty fee of course), add some of that said cheese in lock boxes for the a chance the other faction can get em.
.Ask players what they want next, ignore it and give them something they don't want at all.
.Come up with some asinine reason to start the whole STF grind all over again and make it
sound like it was something WE WANTED.....
.Reduce dilithium rewards and but INCREASE dilithium charges through-ought the game where none existed before.
.Starbase projects not making everyone miserable yet? Wait, here come the emissaries.
(And who in the hell asked for emissaries anyways? We wanted the KDF to be finished so we could play playable Rommies........)
.Want those fleet ships you ground so hard for? CHA CHING !
You know, rather than adding a new Romulan sector on the map for season 7, Why not stay true to intention and add Rura Penthe instead? That would make more sense.
Name season 7 "Off to Rura Penthe with ya....." Cause quite frankly you've sentenced all but the richest, or hardcore of us to the dilithium mines and locked anything entertaining behind ever increasing dilithium costs....
I'm waiting for the death penalty with a dilithium charge to resurrect your character.....
You know, I'd like to think that they're going to make it relatively fair by the time it goes live. But so much about this new system screams "we've got you by the balls"...
You know, I'd like to think that they're going to make it relatively fair by the time it goes live. But so much about this new system screams "we've got you by the balls"...
I know. I wouldn't be so angry about the Dil sinks. (To be fair, we've needed good things to spend it on for a long time) But now that we have (reasonably) nice things to spend it on, they're making it harder to get it? Why?
I love Dan Stahl. Hes a great guy. Im glad hes back with Cryptic. The last week has been leaving me scratching my head.
You hate to call a fine gentlemen like this a liar because its such a harsh word. In the past this man has told us falsehoods but with good intent. He told us we are going to get 10 featured episodes a year and 50 missions out of them. The foundry season dropped and Cryptic quit producing new missions and pve updates died. Cryptic in action and deed told the player base if you want new missions then build them yourself we cant be bothered as we care about Never Winter Nights and not STO and thats where we are building new mishies.
Now in this case DStahl, did not lie. When a person lies they deceive with intent. In the past Dan set a grand vision that I think he hoped and planned would happen but did not come to fruition. You have to love a guy thats working his guts out and trying to make the game and world a better place. DStahls vision turned into an empty promise but at least you kind of hoped the dream would happen and you respected the guy for trying. In the past Dans falsehoods and fibs werent meant to deceive or misinform us but rather happened because he reached too far and couldnt deliver. The featured episodes promised went away when Cryptic decided to make players create all the new content instead of doing it themselves and DStahl for reasons not fully known to us left the company. The new guy changed course and let content stagnate.
This week has been a bitter disappointment. On the one hand you have DStahl posting this:
? The number of Elite STF runs needed to get a Mk XII gear set has been reduced by 60 percent.
Fair enough, good news. I think everyone approves of this change.
Then we hear this from DStahl:
- Normal STFs now reward 240 Dilithium + Omega Marks
- Elite STFs now reward 480 Dilithium + Omega Marks + Borg Commodity for MKXII Sets
Theres plenty of talk about other Devs floating balloon rumors that new sets will cost over 100K dilithium each for a ground set and then again for a space set.
Now if it used to on average take 50 missions to get an elite proto drop and that dropped 60% then it would be safe to say that with Stahls vision you could do 20 elite stf missions in the future and get the item you want. However, It seems that if you do 20 missions that you will have everything you need for the desired item - only if - you already have your 100K dilithium to purchase it.
A lie is an intentional deception and I wonder if DStahl has started down that road and is spinning lies for us. When you go to court and testify you put your hand on the bible and swear to tell the truth and to tell the WHOLE truth. The bailiff doesnt ask you to swear part of the truth or whatever people want to hear about the truth. Its the whole truth that matters.
Ive got a bunch of mad players bursting at the seems about these changes and I want some truth to come out of the Devs mouths instead of obfuscation, cryptic evasiveness, and outright lies. Cmon guys tell us the truth. Are we going to be able to do 20 missions and get a piece of gear or are we going to do have to do our 20 missions and still raise and find an extra 25,000 extra dilithium to get the piece of gear on top of the 9600 dilithium we earned from the missions.
Right now, people do stuffies and are like well if I win cool and if not heres 1000 for a fleet project. If float balloon rumors stand player opions will be, I have to play this **** stf 65 times to earn enough dilithium for that piece of mk xii item I want. And then I will need 130 more wins to get enough dili for the other 2 pieces.
So, in point of fact the person that used to play a stuffie 65 times would use to get 65000 dilithium to donate to fleet projects, craft, or other use, probably win the item dropped, get 130 data chips for nice bonus add on prizes such as armor sets for boffs or new doffs, 65 rewards to use or sell on the exchange plus any bonus rewards from optional drops teams earned. Its frustrating to not win your drop but its still worth trying. The other prizes smooth over hard feelings.
We are hearing now out of DStahls mouth 60% less missions to win the big prize but his devs are floating out to us that dilithium needed to win the big prize is going to require more missions to achieve it and not less.
Grind payouts of missions are going down not up and the 60% reduction of play time needed for a set seems to be a fabrication similar to a supersized hotel tax when you need lodging.
Dan I love you man but one of these two ideas is wrong and I really hope you dont know the truth and are trying to spin it for us in the from us in the most nasty form of a lie which is that of a lie of omission.
Dan if it takes 60% less time to get a set then stand firm on that promise and have that include zero dilithium costs for sets and allow players to continue donating dilithium rewards from stuffie wins to fleet projects as they do now. Dan if you are going to charge more dilithium for more sets and you know that this is what you are planning to do to us then you are lying to us about the 60% reduction; and you know it; regardless of how you spin this to yourself, your employees, the players, or your scorned conscious.
Dan love you bud, but lies of omission and obfuscation are not welcome additions to players perceptions of the needs of this game right now. I expect better from you. I have players left and right telling me they arent going to grind more if it takes more missions to earn set pieces. Their other option is to leave the game. And its frustrating watching this play out and watch friends leave.
Obviously you have time to back down and fix the problem before 7 drops but if you are not lying to us and merely mistaken or in the process of posting up miscommunications or guidance not yet decided then you need to update and shart shooting straight with us instead of having you and devs talking out of different sides of the cryptic mouth.
60% less missions Dan and this includes Dilithium requirements as part of your grand picture of the reduction and not add on dilithium prices as taxes on the ticket. Everybody would welcome less grinding and nobody wants more.
You may not have reached the camel straw point yet but the players are telling you they are noticing the haystack and if you are hiding the pain of the truth bespeaking to us about raised dilithium costs for sets then you are going down a path you dont want to be on and starting to open up the possibilities of players thinking of you as a liar. Would like to see you stand tall and fix this problem before it lands with a thud.
Hope you find it in you to stay true to your word Dan. 60% less Dan and that includes dilithium costs in the picture frame. The game needs you to try.
Comments
So create Doff Marks, you get a variable number on each successful completion or crit of an assignment, more for rarer assignments.
They can then be used grind your doffs.
Dilithium is not the best solution and the doff grinder is not the problem, the Fleet Vendor is, you accept that as the truth. So the solution is to be found in Doff Vendor by changing other parts of the supply chain you actually create the possibility of cascade changes in other parts of the system you didn't intend to be affected. It's very simple.
In fact you could create a Marks or special XP system produced from assignment types to fill pots for specific types of doffs, so for example Marks or XP from you Engineering assignments can be used to grind whatever doffs you want specifically in to engineering doffs.
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1) to Maintain the value of this End Game Mechanic - Mr Stahl has made clear that end game is his priority.
2)As a time gate on Starbases - doff requirements allow a significant time gate to these projects that are advancing at a much more rapid pace than they planned.
Don't tell me that they are not - My solo fleet experiment "Starbase 001" FULLY completed STO's first solo Tier 3 starbase more than 8 days ago.
If I could comlete a tier 3 starbase by myself more than a week ago - when they were designed with 25 people in mind - they are moving VERY rapidly.
Mr Stahl intends these projects to be long-term - END GAME features - the High doff requirements are one way to slow them down.
Well what they need to remember is Doffs themselves were not designed with the idea of profiteering scams. They were designed as a mini-game to fulfill assignments that allow you to eventually benefit improving your ship and ground abilities. They were never meant to be exploited for EC's that you can do so is all well and good but don't go moaning because the niche you exploit is not longer profitable. That is business.
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(I see that dastahl mentioned something about changes. But see something concrete, blog #8 is still the defining designed.)
This post shows a perfect example of how the Omega Reputation system punishes players who have put in extraordinary efforts into getting Mk XII gear but is mistreated by the random number generator. Yes, the current system punishes these player. They have to way 2-3 months more before they can get the missed Mk XII piece of the set. And the new system is a reward for the new STF player. They have a definitely more determinate systems in order to get their gear.
And the thing that really bothers me most of all is that Cryptic did not appear to see the consequences of this system. It's just mind boggling to me. As I said in my first post in this thread, I knew exactly what the player responses would be after I read the blog entry. I didn't have to think about or ponder it for a time. It was obvious. And it turns out I was correct.
Pretty much what I was thinking, too.
It eviscerates the purpose in which is was added To feed the Fleet Base system.
So modify the fleet system. Doffs are not the exclusive plaything of fleets... players without fleets or in small fleets use them for purposes other than fleets.
You lost the argument pages ago no amount of bolding your text is going to change the fact.
You admitted the problem is with the fleet vendor, tinkering with other parts of the system will as happens in real world economics cause more problems than it solves.
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Sorry, try again.
You yourself said your experience doing this was miserable and burned you out.
You completing something like this is a statistical outlier, not an indication that the entire system is flawed and advancing too rapidly.
Seriously? Going to try that just to keep Doff exchange prices artifically high? I just lost a little respect for you.
well: interaction can only happen when out of combat (not when tanking while in red alert) hence he who kills the quickest will win the interaction race. Funnily this is the same guy who can move the quickest out of aggro range and on to the next objective.
last time we brought up better matchmaking in the PvP queues, and better scoreboards, we were told that this required new tech. Since there hasn't been an update on this, am I to understand this tech is now in?
Please keep in mind. If my healing cruiser, heals an escort, the escort lives to do more damage and score the kill. My healing, therefore, lowers my chances of getting to first spot. This is a terrible design, in a game with the holy trinity. The same goes for SNB or all CC abilities. Unless healing a teammate makes up for the lack of dps/kill score in the rewards calculation, rewarding first place with more gear, DIL etc. is a horrible idea, imv.
However, I've been barking up this tree for a long time. Maybe nao is the time to change a few things for the better. So thank you for finally responding to this particular concern, and yes I would love to hear your teams insights into the background. While we're at it, if calculation about contributions to mission success are on the table, please don't forget PvP, the tech could improve that aspect of STO by a lot.
PS.: I have completed all first place accolades with Sci and Eng toons, i think i have a reasonably good idea how this works in practice.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Indeed he already admitted and boasted about the fact that his underlying interest in all of this is his personal profiteering and manipulation of the EC market,
Seeing this niche collapse would be bad for him so like the cartels and tycoons of old he is trying to cajole the governing body into interfering with the markets natural dynamics. Corporatism at it's best :P
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How will you overcome the fact that KDF fleet action queues are either extremely long waits if not fruitless? ... Serious question, btw, as its a serious problem.
U.S.S. Maelstrom, NCC-71417 (Constitution III-class/flagship) --- Fleet Admiral Hauk' --|-- Dahar Master Hauk --- I.K.S. qu'In 'an bortaS (D7-class / flagship)
I'm talking about upgrinding. Downgrinding would work as-is. Which Cryptic doesn't seem to be changing anyway.
You sir like others are making exaggerated claims that are completely false. I currently grind lots of commons into greens and sell them on the exchange - soon that will STOP with the price increases - so if your logic and false accusations were correct and I was trying to profitieer under this new system I should be the one MOST against it - not for it!!
you need to re-think your slanted arguments.
Lol, aren't you already profiteering from the current prices!? and would you not stand to lose out if the prices bottomed out, which is what you seem to be overly concerned with.
The point is Doff's are not the playthings of fleets everyone can use them, you already accepted the problem is with fleet vendors, why is it you cannot accept that the best solution is to modify them?
Admit it you know that the current ludicrous increase in dilithium prices on the grinder is not the solution that is required to fix the problems with the fleet doff vendor.
It is your viewpoint that is seen by most on this thread as slanted, you know that it's irrational to argue that changing the grinder is the best way to deal with a problem with the fleet vendor.
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Sorry, you can't use your one-off experiment as evidence of anything. Exept maybe that its evidence that one guy getting a starbase to tier III by himslef is a really bad idea.
You have no idea (other than your own limited observations) of how fast other fleets are moving thru starbases, and you have no access to the metrics Cryptic uses.
I really don't know what to think of your stance on this issue anymore.
Luckily, your stance doesn't really affect mine - a 50x price increase in ANY system, all at once, is a very bad idea. Couple that with additional dilithium charges in areas of the game that did not have them before and it becomes fairly obvious what the design intent of this is - to force casual players to spend real money to buy zen and then to convert the zen to dilithium. Either that, or the casual player fleet can just accept that they will not advance starbases and will never be able to grind enough dilithium for max level gear.
It's so glaringly obvious and the fact that none of the devs have tackled this point or dispelled our arguments with regards to it is a continual cause for concern. Especially considering by their own admission that Dilithium was designed simply as means to help F2P to access items on the C-Store.
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Bogle I have stood by you on other doff issues and you have stood by me - so I will stand by you again - the increase in grinding costs is excessive - at least for common to greens - this is something that could be modified. Perhaps a 5x or 10x increase to 100 dilth for the commons to greens. This is something i could get behind.
Blues and purples I am fine with the increase - that won't change.
The way the system is implemented, it doesn't prevent a player from going all the way to Tier 5. The only limitation is gathering resources.
I myself got a Federation and KDF starbase past Level 2 and about 18,000 XP away from unlocking the Tier 3 Starbase. Though that was as far I was planning to go actively. But the thing is, this revisement is just going to slow down everyone across the board.
This is not the norm.
What i do as a casual player is closer to the norm (but still more than most casual players). I joined the game a few months ago, I spend the time I have on here which is usually 3-5 hours a day on the weekdays, and more on the weekends.
In that time I have managed to start a fleet it has a few members but I am the only one contributing, I do all the daily stuff to grind out fleet marks and the like and I've barely got to 1/2 through Teir 0.
Alongside that I've also of course been grinding STF's. I have 3 char's two at VA one at Cmdr.
This game is already a grind as it is.
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But fleet doffs allowed me to double my doff related EC income.
And trust me, I've not been playing any fleet action with my main doffing character for weeks, but I'm still making far more EC than I would with scarce regular doffs. That's definitely not the issue, if you play smart almost free items coming from any useless surpluses (here cxp) are always good to take.
The real issue is that the devs estimate that there are too many ways to get doffs, period. This statement isn't negociable. Discussing that is useless, it won't change but we can push for another kind of change giving the same results. Thus, players are trying to make a deal with them: leave the free academy doff as they are on holodeck currently and nerf the fleet ones, because the white academy pack is something everyone can use. Fleet doffs are an unrelated reward people get from playing non doff content.
That's the deal. If you have a better idea to reduce the number of doff on the markets the devs could accept be my guest. I knew something like that would happen sooner or later, i've even created a thread proving that the fleet doffs were about to ruin the doff system. This is happening right now and the devs are trying to stop the leak. Now enjoy the consequences of your previous whinning about fleet doffs asking for not bound ones. Everyone will take a slap in the face. For your very own little confort.
And FYI this change as it is will increase my profits far more than nerfing fleet doffs. So I have no interest seeing this happening but I still want it to happen.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
Your entire post is moot. You are doing more stfs in the new system versus the old system, which counters the 53,600 dil ore you would gain. The new STF branch has nothing to do with the reputation system and thus, you are still left with less dil per stf played.
prior to S7:
normal stf: 160*480=76,800 and 160 edc
elite stf: 160*1100=176,000 and 320 edc
edc yield: 480 edc / 10 edc per 1056 dil = 48*1056=50,688
total yield: 303,488
after S7:
normal stf: 160*240=38,400 and 3200 marks
elite stf:160*480=76,800 and 9600 marks
marks yield: 12,800/50 marks per 500 dil = 256*500=128,000
total yield: 243,200
So, going by guaranteed drops alone... the end user is a loser and not a winner as you suggest. Please keep in mind that this does not factor in the rare tech and salvage drops that can be refined for 1056 dil each or the proto tech and salvage drops that can be refined for 2304 dil each. Plus, add in the fact that the t5 dilithium conversion is a project, which means that it will require a project space and x amount of time. Tell me again how we're better off? Yeah. Thanks for playing.
Sorry you have no idea about me - 9 times out of 10 I list my stuff just BELOW the current price. I do NOT buy up stuff on the exchange to inflate prices - so people do - I don't.
I rarely - as in maybe 5 total in my 3000 hrs on this game have sold a purple - so that is not the issue either.
How long have you been on this game? at the begining of this year long before Season 6 Romulan ale used to cost $350k per bottle - always - then they added it to the drop on a crit for confiscating contraband and it dropped to like $10k. I expect they will do something similar with the Targ Heart.
Also I don't have 1 lock box ship - not one! 11 c-store ships - Most of the reason i have a lot of EC is that I am not spending it on shinny things - I did spend several Hundred million on the starbase but that is it.
I have already relented - even though you people keep making outlandish claims about me - that the price increase to grind commons to greens is excessive and needs to be re-worked.
Please don't try to use me as an excuse - based on false claims of what I do - as a reason things should change.
If their estimation was that there are too many common and uncommon doffs in the marketplace due to fleet vendors then it makes 0 sense to slap a 5000/6000 dil cost on the production of one purple doff.
It took me a lot of EC and Dil to get a a good crew of purples on my ship as it is. I certainly cannot see any oversupply of them on my end.
As I said this isn't a solution to the Fleet doff vendor it's just another dilithium sink and we all know the reasons for it are not to solve a problem with the fleet vendor.
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If anyone wants to talk about a real master of the doff exchange - this is a guy to have the chat with. Compared to Diogene0 - he is a Blue whale and I am just a minnow!
My solution would also allow people to chose what type of Doff's they receive.
I would implement Doff Recruitment XP as reward given on all assignments in varying volume depending on the assignment.
Doff recruitment XP (or marks if you prefer) would be split up depending on the type of mission it was awarded from, XP/Marks from an Engineering assignment would go into an Engineering pot.
You could then trade in that XP or marks at the vendor on SFA to grind up or down with the added benefit of being able to chose which department of specialization you wanted to get back.
(You could offer the same functionality at the fleet grinder too) and all this could be done without impacting the dilithium economy which I think you all accept is not the most efficient way to deal with any of the percieved doff problems.
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I'm satisfied with the game and am willing to see how it changes. Life is not fair life is not easy life doesn't give you everything you want for free. Don't like it? Thats life STO team you have a loyal customer here. And I understand how you need to please the casual and competitve player and keep the money flowing that you need to keep making this game better.
THIS 100 % This.
Recipe for kicking you players in the Jimmies -
. First nerf Science into OBLIVION,
. Then make STFs all about DPS.
. Then introduce respawn penalties while not addressing things like invisible torpedos.
. Then force players to play STFs over, and over and over again........FOR A CHANCE at high end gear.
. Then when people finally start to get STF sets after grinding their collective asses off, lets change em, nerf em...Or just leave em underwhelming.
.Add plenty of C store and lock box cheese, (for a hefty fee of course), add some of that said cheese in lock boxes for the a chance the other faction can get em.
.Ask players what they want next, ignore it and give them something they don't want at all.
.Come up with some asinine reason to start the whole STF grind all over again and make it
sound like it was something WE WANTED.....
.Reduce dilithium rewards and but INCREASE dilithium charges through-ought the game where none existed before.
.Starbase projects not making everyone miserable yet? Wait, here come the emissaries.
(And who in the hell asked for emissaries anyways? We wanted the KDF to be finished so we could play playable Rommies........)
.Want those fleet ships you ground so hard for? CHA CHING !
You know, rather than adding a new Romulan sector on the map for season 7, Why not stay true to intention and add Rura Penthe instead? That would make more sense.
Name season 7 "Off to Rura Penthe with ya....." Cause quite frankly you've sentenced all but the richest, or hardcore of us to the dilithium mines and locked anything entertaining behind ever increasing dilithium costs....
I'm waiting for the death penalty with a dilithium charge to resurrect your character.....
You know, I'd like to think that they're going to make it relatively fair by the time it goes live. But so much about this new system screams "we've got you by the balls"...
I know. I wouldn't be so angry about the Dil sinks. (To be fair, we've needed good things to spend it on for a long time) But now that we have (reasonably) nice things to spend it on, they're making it harder to get it? Why?
You hate to call a fine gentlemen like this a liar because its such a harsh word. In the past this man has told us falsehoods but with good intent. He told us we are going to get 10 featured episodes a year and 50 missions out of them. The foundry season dropped and Cryptic quit producing new missions and pve updates died. Cryptic in action and deed told the player base if you want new missions then build them yourself we cant be bothered as we care about Never Winter Nights and not STO and thats where we are building new mishies.
Now in this case DStahl, did not lie. When a person lies they deceive with intent. In the past Dan set a grand vision that I think he hoped and planned would happen but did not come to fruition. You have to love a guy thats working his guts out and trying to make the game and world a better place. DStahls vision turned into an empty promise but at least you kind of hoped the dream would happen and you respected the guy for trying. In the past Dans falsehoods and fibs werent meant to deceive or misinform us but rather happened because he reached too far and couldnt deliver. The featured episodes promised went away when Cryptic decided to make players create all the new content instead of doing it themselves and DStahl for reasons not fully known to us left the company. The new guy changed course and let content stagnate.
This week has been a bitter disappointment. On the one hand you have DStahl posting this:
? The number of Elite STF runs needed to get a Mk XII gear set has been reduced by 60 percent.
Fair enough, good news. I think everyone approves of this change.
Then we hear this from DStahl:
- Normal STFs now reward 240 Dilithium + Omega Marks
- Elite STFs now reward 480 Dilithium + Omega Marks + Borg Commodity for MKXII Sets
Theres plenty of talk about other Devs floating balloon rumors that new sets will cost over 100K dilithium each for a ground set and then again for a space set.
Now if it used to on average take 50 missions to get an elite proto drop and that dropped 60% then it would be safe to say that with Stahls vision you could do 20 elite stf missions in the future and get the item you want. However, It seems that if you do 20 missions that you will have everything you need for the desired item - only if - you already have your 100K dilithium to purchase it.
A lie is an intentional deception and I wonder if DStahl has started down that road and is spinning lies for us. When you go to court and testify you put your hand on the bible and swear to tell the truth and to tell the WHOLE truth. The bailiff doesnt ask you to swear part of the truth or whatever people want to hear about the truth. Its the whole truth that matters.
Ive got a bunch of mad players bursting at the seems about these changes and I want some truth to come out of the Devs mouths instead of obfuscation, cryptic evasiveness, and outright lies. Cmon guys tell us the truth. Are we going to be able to do 20 missions and get a piece of gear or are we going to do have to do our 20 missions and still raise and find an extra 25,000 extra dilithium to get the piece of gear on top of the 9600 dilithium we earned from the missions.
Right now, people do stuffies and are like well if I win cool and if not heres 1000 for a fleet project. If float balloon rumors stand player opions will be, I have to play this **** stf 65 times to earn enough dilithium for that piece of mk xii item I want. And then I will need 130 more wins to get enough dili for the other 2 pieces.
So, in point of fact the person that used to play a stuffie 65 times would use to get 65000 dilithium to donate to fleet projects, craft, or other use, probably win the item dropped, get 130 data chips for nice bonus add on prizes such as armor sets for boffs or new doffs, 65 rewards to use or sell on the exchange plus any bonus rewards from optional drops teams earned. Its frustrating to not win your drop but its still worth trying. The other prizes smooth over hard feelings.
We are hearing now out of DStahls mouth 60% less missions to win the big prize but his devs are floating out to us that dilithium needed to win the big prize is going to require more missions to achieve it and not less.
Grind payouts of missions are going down not up and the 60% reduction of play time needed for a set seems to be a fabrication similar to a supersized hotel tax when you need lodging.
Dan I love you man but one of these two ideas is wrong and I really hope you dont know the truth and are trying to spin it for us in the from us in the most nasty form of a lie which is that of a lie of omission.
Dan if it takes 60% less time to get a set then stand firm on that promise and have that include zero dilithium costs for sets and allow players to continue donating dilithium rewards from stuffie wins to fleet projects as they do now. Dan if you are going to charge more dilithium for more sets and you know that this is what you are planning to do to us then you are lying to us about the 60% reduction; and you know it; regardless of how you spin this to yourself, your employees, the players, or your scorned conscious.
Dan love you bud, but lies of omission and obfuscation are not welcome additions to players perceptions of the needs of this game right now. I expect better from you. I have players left and right telling me they arent going to grind more if it takes more missions to earn set pieces. Their other option is to leave the game. And its frustrating watching this play out and watch friends leave.
Obviously you have time to back down and fix the problem before 7 drops but if you are not lying to us and merely mistaken or in the process of posting up miscommunications or guidance not yet decided then you need to update and shart shooting straight with us instead of having you and devs talking out of different sides of the cryptic mouth.
60% less missions Dan and this includes Dilithium requirements as part of your grand picture of the reduction and not add on dilithium prices as taxes on the ticket. Everybody would welcome less grinding and nobody wants more.
You may not have reached the camel straw point yet but the players are telling you they are noticing the haystack and if you are hiding the pain of the truth bespeaking to us about raised dilithium costs for sets then you are going down a path you dont want to be on and starting to open up the possibilities of players thinking of you as a liar. Would like to see you stand tall and fix this problem before it lands with a thud.
Hope you find it in you to stay true to your word Dan. 60% less Dan and that includes dilithium costs in the picture frame. The game needs you to try.
Bug