So you'd be fine with them showing up for $200, as a fixed price?
You know all you have to do is buy them on the exchange, right?
Nope, and no one is saying that.
A C-Store ship will run you roughly $25 (overpriced), but what this other player is suggesting is that they'd much rather, in the absence of lockboxes, spend more than $25 to purchase the ships that otherwise would have been in lockboxes.
A C-Store ship will run you roughly $25 (overpriced), but what this other player is suggesting is that they'd much rather, in the absence of lockboxes, spend more than $25 to purchase the ships that otherwise would have been in lockboxes.
What's the difference in a item drop (Say, a Mk XII Purple Tac Console) thats completely left to chance in the exact same way a lockbox reward is, and that lockbox reward? Other than the difference in price and currency required, which is generally irrelevant to the principle behind it.
i Will Never Embrace The Greedy Gambling Scam Of Lock Boxes. The Gambling Nature Of Acquiring Items Is Horrible. I Will Continue To Be Vocal About My Dislike For It. Those Items Should All Be C-store Items. I Will Never Like It, Accept It, Nor Keep My Mouth Shut About It. You Will Not Convince Me Otherwise.
What's the difference in a item drop (Say, a Mk XII Purple Tac Console) thats completely left to chance in the exact same way a lockbox reward is, and that lockbox reward? Other than the difference in price and currency required, which is generally irrelevant to the principle behind it.
No, you can't ignore the difference in price--both time and currency.
When you play the game, most players expect a certain level of reward for their time. These rewards come in the form of prizes granted for completing content (mission rewards, DOFF mission rewards, starbase rewards, etc.) with a very clear and communicated rate of exchange; I know I'm going to get X if I do Y, where X is populated from a list of Xs all with equal value. Random mob drops are a bonus in the sense that you're already being rewarded for your time (the only currency you're really spending in this case).
A C-Store ship will run you roughly $25 (overpriced), but what this other player is suggesting is that they'd much rather, in the absence of lockboxes, spend more than $25 to purchase the ships that otherwise would have been in lockboxes.
Based on what? What Cryptic and PWE know they can milk out of players in their lottery system? I highly doubt that they could sell ships at those prices--and that's exactly the point. Cryptic and PWE know that by locking away valued prizes in these chance boxes with horrendous rates of return, they can exploit players' emotional connection to the IP, their monetary self control, and their basic understanding of statistics to get more out of them.
So that's why they do it. Instead of selling these ships for relatively reasonable prices (compared to lockbox ships), they're instead going to sell you a chance at ships for a much higher price.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the [URL="http://sto-
forum.perfectworld.com/announcement.php?&a=51"]Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules
and Policies [/URL]. ~Bluegeek
So how are you not rewarded for expending another currency such as dollars or energy credits?
Because you don't get a ship with every box? Well, then, how is that different from getting a Mk XI white console compared to a Mk XII purple?
Spend currency > Be given a chance at x item
Spend currency > Be given a chance at X item
The first one is what occurs when you go after item drops. The other, lock boxes. There is NO difference.
What is your point? Are you trying to conflate random item drops with lockbox rewards?
Again, random drops are a bonus--they are rewarded in addition to the rewards you are already guaranteed to receive for your time. In fact, you're guaranteed to earn some of these rewards in the process of earning your mission rewards. There's no exploitation going on there.
You also cannot compare the quantifiable value of random loot drops to the rewards that come from lockboxes. There's an astronomical difference in value.
Sorry to break it to you but whining on a forum isn't going to break down capitalism in the US nor the world at large.
You should really be more careful with your straw men. I'm not arguing to bring down capitalism. I'd kindly ask you to stay on topic, refrain from politicizing the issue, and carry on the discussion at hand.
So you're forgetting that Lobi crystals exist. Fascinating.
Whining about "exploitation" leads to whining about capitalism, because getting rid of capitalism is the only way you're going to get rid of the "exploitation" you are so enraged over.
Also, your typical Mk XII purple Tac console costs anywhere between 30m-100m. The cheapest lockbox ship tends to go for ~35m. So not only is there not much a price difference at all, but just because there aren't 100m item drops doesn't change the fact that there is still zero difference between both concepts.
So you're forgetting that Lobi crystals exist. Fascinating.
Whining about "exploitation" leads to whining about capitalism, because getting rid of capitalism is the only way you're going to get rid of the "exploitation" you are so enraged over.
Look, if you're not going to be reasonable and refrain from personal remarks, the discussion is pretty much over between us and I'll continue to engage with others.
Remember that part about X to earn Y, where the list of Ys are of unequal value?
Lockboxes are more like McDonald's Monopoly game than gambling.
You pay $1.49, you get your fries, guaranteed. On top of your fries, you COULD win additional things via the Monopoly contest pieces that are pressed onto the container.
You pay $1.25, you get your Lobi Crystals, guaranteed. On top of your Lobi Crystals, you COULD win additional things via the luck of the lockbox that you're opening.
Lockboxes are more like McDonald's Monopoly game than gambling.
You pay $1.49, you get your fries, guaranteed. On top of your fries, you COULD win additional things via the Monopoly contest pieces that are pressed onto the container.
You pay $1.25, you get your Lobi Crystals, guaranteed. On top of your Lobi Crystals, you COULD win additional things via the luck of the lockbox that you're opening.
Lockboxes are more like McDonald's Monopoly game than gambling.
You pay $1.49, you get your fries, guaranteed. On top of your fries, you COULD win additional things via the Monopoly contest pieces that are pressed onto the container.
You pay $1.25, you get your Lobi Crystals, guaranteed. On top of your Lobi Crystals, you COULD win additional things via the luck of the lockbox that you're opening.
If you don't like it, don't buy fries.
Or if you dont like it, trade dilithium for zen. That means even if you "lose", you havent lost any money.
Lockboxes are more like McDonald's Monopoly game than gambling.
You pay $1.49, you get your fries, guaranteed. On top of your fries, you COULD win additional things via the Monopoly contest pieces that are pressed onto the container.
You pay $1.25, you get your Lobi Crystals, guaranteed. On top of your Lobi Crystals, you COULD win additional things via the luck of the lockbox that you're opening.
If you don't like it, don't buy fries.
It's still a disgusting practice to get people to buy more fries. That, ultimately, is my problem; it's an exploitative gimmick that takes advantage of certain facts about human nature to get people to spend more money than they ordinarily would.
I guess the good news for me is that I already buy two large fries, so they're not getting anything extra out of me. XD
It's still a disgusting practice to get people to buy more fries. That, ultimately, is my problem; it's an exploitative gimmick that takes advantage of certain facts about human nature to get people to spend more money than they ordinarily would.
Just because you don't like something doesn't mean other people shouldn't do it. You can get the ships via ingame means. If you want them, get them that way. Other people enjoy the lockboxes. Let people have fun near you their way.
Former moderator of these forums. Lifetime sub since before launch. Been here since before public betas. Foundry author of "Franklin Drake Must Die".
It's still a disgusting practice to get people to buy more fries. That, ultimately, is my problem; it's an exploitative gimmick that takes advantage of certain facts about human nature to get people to spend more money than they ordinarily would.
Yes, it does exploit human foibles. Unfortunately, it works to move product and it's probably one of the first things a marketer learns. Think of marketers and salespeople as a sort of predator that consumes bank accounts... even if it isn't quite true it's probably safer to assume that it is.
Ultimately though, we are responsible for our own actions. We choose to buy, or not to buy, of our own free will. We can look at it as an opportunity to build character, or we can use it to perpetuate a victim mentality in our society.
I freely admit that I burn with envy every time I see that banner proclaiming somebody won a D'Kora. My greed weighs me down when I see all the cool stuff I could get if I'm lucky. Do I blame PWE for that? Well, maybe a little. But I know there's no vacuum sucking money out of my wallet involuntarily. I've set my own limits and I try to stick to them.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Just because you don't like something doesn't mean other people shouldn't do it. You can get the ships via ingame means. If you want them, get them that way. Other people enjoy the lockboxes. Let people have fun near you their way.
There's other ways for people to have fun; gambling away large sums of money isn't among the best of those.
Yes, it does exploit human foibles. Unfortunately, it works to move product and it's probably one of the first things a marketer learns. Think of marketers and salespeople as a sort of predator that consumes bank accounts... even if it isn't quite true it's probably safer to assume that it is.
Ultimately though, we are responsible for our own actions. We choose to buy, or not to buy, of our own free will. We can look at it as an opportunity to build character, or we can use it to perpetuate a victim mentality in our society.
I freely admit that I burn with envy every time I see that banner proclaiming somebody won a D'Kora. My greed weighs me down when I see all the cool stuff I could get if I'm lucky. Do I blame PWE for that? Well, maybe a little. But I know there's no vacuum sucking money out of my wallet involuntarily. I've set my own limits and I try to stick to them.
The point is that some people are less capable than others at controlling their own actions. Cryptic and PWE are quite literally banking on it.
The very heart of my issue can be explained by the answer to this question: Why would Cryptic and PWE offer these ships as part of a lottery/chance box as opposed to selling them outright in their cash shop?
Lucas did it with Star Wars. It was disgusting then too.
There's other ways for people to have fun; gambling large sums of money away isn't among the best of those.
Your argument is also a slippery slope.
The point is that some people are less capable than others at controlling their own actions. Cryptic and PWE are quite literally banking on it.
The very heart of my issue can be explained by the answer to this question: Why would Cryptic and PWE offer these ships as part of a lottery/chance box as opposed to selling them outright in their cash shop?
Lucas did it with Star Wars. It was disgusting then too.
^ THIS.
I love how the purps keep defending this and the most recent thing tooth n nail.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] EXPLORE.
Dec '07 Account I EARNED 1000 days...I didn't BUY it! New LTS=Death to Vet.System: 10/10/12 Never Forget Something should be done for those who cared enough to have a 1000+ day sub.
BTW... where the McDonalds/Monopoly analogy breaks down very badly is that McD does in fact publish the odds and it functions exactly like a sweepstakes.
What people are forgetting is that you can play without making any purchase at all, if you're willing to go to the extra trouble. The purchases just give you extra chances to win in the form of more tokens.
In the STO Lockbox game, assuming that the Dilithium Exchange is healthy, you can play without making any cash purchase at all if you're willing to go to the extra trouble. Admittedly a lot more trouble than playing McD Monopoly. They don't publish the odds and they do not operate as a sweepstakes.
The Lockbox model can't function as a sweepstakes because there's no set limit (that we know of) as to how many prizes are given out. That makes it quite a bit more difficult to calculate the odds reliably.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
BTW... where the McDonalds/Monopoly analogy breaks down very badly is that McD does in fact publish the odds and it functions exactly like a sweepstakes.
What people are forgetting is that you can play without making any purchase at all, if you're willing to go to the extra trouble. The purchases just give you extra chances to win in the form of more tokens.
In the STO Lockbox game, assuming that the Dilithium Exchange is healthy, you can play without making any cash purchase at all if you're willing to go to the extra trouble. Admittedly a lot more trouble than playing McD Monopoly. They don't publish the odds and they do not operate as a sweepstakes.
The Lockbox model can't function as a sweepstakes because there's no set limit (that we know of) as to how many prizes are given out. That makes it quite a bit more difficult to calculate the odds reliably.
BTW... where the McDonalds/Monopoly analogy breaks down very badly is that McD does in fact publish the odds and it functions exactly like a sweepstakes.
What people are forgetting is that you can play without making any purchase at all, if you're willing to go to the extra trouble. The purchases just give you extra chances to win in the form of more tokens.
In the STO Lockbox game, assuming that the Dilithium Exchange is healthy, you can play without making any cash purchase at all if you're willing to go to the extra trouble. Admittedly a lot more trouble than playing McD Monopoly. They don't publish the odds and they do not operate as a sweepstakes.
The Lockbox model can't function as a sweepstakes because there's no set limit (that we know of) as to how many prizes are given out. That makes it quite a bit more difficult to calculate the odds reliably.
In all honesty it makes one wonder if Cryptic/PWE is afraid of the reaction the playerbase would have if they found out what the actual odds were.
Then the whole, name@handle scam that was brought to the light which was just randomly brining up names that either never existed or falsely stated that a player won a ship, etc.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] EXPLORE.
Dec '07 Account I EARNED 1000 days...I didn't BUY it! New LTS=Death to Vet.System: 10/10/12 Never Forget Something should be done for those who cared enough to have a 1000+ day sub.
It's still a disgusting practice to get people to buy more fries. That, ultimately, is my problem; it's an exploitative gimmick that takes advantage of certain facts about human nature to get people to spend more money than they ordinarily would.
I guess the good news for me is that I already buy two large fries, so they're not getting anything extra out of me. XD
Why is it disgusting? It's fun to have a chance at a prize.
"Exploitation" is such a misused and misunderstood word... If you are exploiting your customer's pleasure to make a profit, nobody loses. The customer gets the pleasure of playing the game, and the business makes a profit. There's nothing disgusting about that kind of exploitation. It's a good thing.
Why is it disgusting? It's fun to have a chance at a prize.
"Exploitation" is such a misused and misunderstood word... If you are exploiting your customer's pleasure to make a profit, nobody loses. The customer gets the pleasure of playing the game, and the business makes a profit. There's nothing disgusting about that kind of exploitation. It's a good thing.
... provided said customer is aware they're being exploited and despite that, choose to engage in the exploitation, I agree.
Yes, it does exploit human foibles. Unfortunately, it works to move product and it's probably one of the first things a marketer learns. Think of marketers and salespeople as a sort of predator that consumes bank accounts... even if it isn't quite true it's probably safer to assume that it is.
Ultimately though, we are responsible for our own actions. We choose to buy, or not to buy, of our own free will. We can look at it as an opportunity to build character, or we can use it to perpetuate a victim mentality in our society.
I freely admit that I burn with envy every time I see that banner proclaiming somebody won a D'Kora. My greed weighs me down when I see all the cool stuff I could get if I'm lucky. Do I blame PWE for that? Well, maybe a little. But I know there's no vacuum sucking money out of my wallet involuntarily. I've set my own limits and I try to stick to them.
Sheesh.
Does somebody wanting all your expendable money make them a bad person?
I know a lot of guys at Cryptic. They ain't exactly Wal-Mart or Bain Capital. But they do want any money you'll part with. I don't see that as greed.
Comments
Nope, and no one is saying that.
A C-Store ship will run you roughly $25 (overpriced), but what this other player is suggesting is that they'd much rather, in the absence of lockboxes, spend more than $25 to purchase the ships that otherwise would have been in lockboxes.
Not sure what you're asking here.
this^^^^^^^^
system Lord Baal is dead
+1
............
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
No, you can't ignore the difference in price--both time and currency.
When you play the game, most players expect a certain level of reward for their time. These rewards come in the form of prizes granted for completing content (mission rewards, DOFF mission rewards, starbase rewards, etc.) with a very clear and communicated rate of exchange; I know I'm going to get X if I do Y, where X is populated from a list of Xs all with equal value. Random mob drops are a bonus in the sense that you're already being rewarded for your time (the only currency you're really spending in this case).
I'm saying that number would be $200.
Because you don't get a ship with every box? Well, then, how is that different from getting a Mk XI white console compared to a Mk XII purple?
Spend currency > Be given a chance at x item
Spend currency > Be given a chance at X item
The first one is what occurs when you go after item drops. The other, lock boxes. There is NO difference.
Based on what? What Cryptic and PWE know they can milk out of players in their lottery system? I highly doubt that they could sell ships at those prices--and that's exactly the point. Cryptic and PWE know that by locking away valued prizes in these chance boxes with horrendous rates of return, they can exploit players' emotional connection to the IP, their monetary self control, and their basic understanding of statistics to get more out of them.
So that's why they do it. Instead of selling these ships for relatively reasonable prices (compared to lockbox ships), they're instead going to sell you a chance at ships for a much higher price.
It's exploitation plain and simple.
forum.perfectworld.com/announcement.php?&a=51"]Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules
and Policies [/URL]. ~Bluegeek
What is your point? Are you trying to conflate random item drops with lockbox rewards?
Again, random drops are a bonus--they are rewarded in addition to the rewards you are already guaranteed to receive for your time. In fact, you're guaranteed to earn some of these rewards in the process of earning your mission rewards. There's no exploitation going on there.
You also cannot compare the quantifiable value of random loot drops to the rewards that come from lockboxes. There's an astronomical difference in value.
You should really be more careful with your straw men. I'm not arguing to bring down capitalism. I'd kindly ask you to stay on topic, refrain from politicizing the issue, and carry on the discussion at hand.
:rolleyes:
Whining about "exploitation" leads to whining about capitalism, because getting rid of capitalism is the only way you're going to get rid of the "exploitation" you are so enraged over.
Also, your typical Mk XII purple Tac console costs anywhere between 30m-100m. The cheapest lockbox ship tends to go for ~35m. So not only is there not much a price difference at all, but just because there aren't 100m item drops doesn't change the fact that there is still zero difference between both concepts.
Look, if you're not going to be reasonable and refrain from personal remarks, the discussion is pretty much over between us and I'll continue to engage with others.
Remember that part about X to earn Y, where the list of Ys are of unequal value?
Disagreeing with your premise and seeing little relevance in your arguments is not 'skirting around the issue.' I simply disagree with you.
You pay $1.49, you get your fries, guaranteed. On top of your fries, you COULD win additional things via the Monopoly contest pieces that are pressed onto the container.
You pay $1.25, you get your Lobi Crystals, guaranteed. On top of your Lobi Crystals, you COULD win additional things via the luck of the lockbox that you're opening.
If you don't like it, don't buy fries.
This. So much.
Or if you dont like it, trade dilithium for zen. That means even if you "lose", you havent lost any money.
It's still a disgusting practice to get people to buy more fries. That, ultimately, is my problem; it's an exploitative gimmick that takes advantage of certain facts about human nature to get people to spend more money than they ordinarily would.
I guess the good news for me is that I already buy two large fries, so they're not getting anything extra out of me. XD
Just because you don't like something doesn't mean other people shouldn't do it. You can get the ships via ingame means. If you want them, get them that way. Other people enjoy the lockboxes. Let people have fun near you their way.
Yes, it does exploit human foibles. Unfortunately, it works to move product and it's probably one of the first things a marketer learns. Think of marketers and salespeople as a sort of predator that consumes bank accounts... even if it isn't quite true it's probably safer to assume that it is.
Ultimately though, we are responsible for our own actions. We choose to buy, or not to buy, of our own free will. We can look at it as an opportunity to build character, or we can use it to perpetuate a victim mentality in our society.
I freely admit that I burn with envy every time I see that banner proclaiming somebody won a D'Kora. My greed weighs me down when I see all the cool stuff I could get if I'm lucky. Do I blame PWE for that? Well, maybe a little. But I know there's no vacuum sucking money out of my wallet involuntarily. I've set my own limits and I try to stick to them.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
There's other ways for people to have fun; gambling away large sums of money isn't among the best of those.
Your argument is also a slippery slope.
The point is that some people are less capable than others at controlling their own actions. Cryptic and PWE are quite literally banking on it.
The very heart of my issue can be explained by the answer to this question: Why would Cryptic and PWE offer these ships as part of a lottery/chance box as opposed to selling them outright in their cash shop?
Lucas did it with Star Wars. It was disgusting then too.
^ THIS.
I love how the purps keep defending this and the most recent thing tooth n nail.
Dec '07 Account
I EARNED 1000 days...I didn't BUY it! New LTS=Death to Vet.System: 10/10/12 Never Forget
Something should be done for those who cared enough to have a 1000+ day sub.
What people are forgetting is that you can play without making any purchase at all, if you're willing to go to the extra trouble. The purchases just give you extra chances to win in the form of more tokens.
In the STO Lockbox game, assuming that the Dilithium Exchange is healthy, you can play without making any cash purchase at all if you're willing to go to the extra trouble. Admittedly a lot more trouble than playing McD Monopoly. They don't publish the odds and they do not operate as a sweepstakes.
The Lockbox model can't function as a sweepstakes because there's no set limit (that we know of) as to how many prizes are given out. That makes it quite a bit more difficult to calculate the odds reliably.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Very good distinction.
In all honesty it makes one wonder if Cryptic/PWE is afraid of the reaction the playerbase would have if they found out what the actual odds were.
Then the whole, name@handle scam that was brought to the light which was just randomly brining up names that either never existed or falsely stated that a player won a ship, etc.
Dec '07 Account
I EARNED 1000 days...I didn't BUY it! New LTS=Death to Vet.System: 10/10/12 Never Forget
Something should be done for those who cared enough to have a 1000+ day sub.
Why is it disgusting? It's fun to have a chance at a prize.
"Exploitation" is such a misused and misunderstood word... If you are exploiting your customer's pleasure to make a profit, nobody loses. The customer gets the pleasure of playing the game, and the business makes a profit. There's nothing disgusting about that kind of exploitation. It's a good thing.
... provided said customer is aware they're being exploited and despite that, choose to engage in the exploitation, I agree.
Sheesh.
Does somebody wanting all your expendable money make them a bad person?
I know a lot of guys at Cryptic. They ain't exactly Wal-Mart or Bain Capital. But they do want any money you'll part with. I don't see that as greed.