Elitist? Hardly. Frustrated with most players not bothering to learn anything but instead complain. Definitely.
That said, perhaps I was too harsh with the l2p comments but I speak from experience. I was that noob that couldn't get escorts to work in pve and kept dying a lot, in cruisers I was equally bad but a cruiser's greater survivability allowed me to continue without really learning anything, even if I found it boring circling a target.
I was obliviously bad until I saw a skilled escort pilot and realized the problem was not the ships, but me. Learning to fly escorts opened my eyes on how to better squeeze performance out of my ships, now my cruisers live with almost constant uptimes of EPTW 3, debuff targets as a rule, hold agro without dying, AND manage to do respectable DPS. Certainly better than other cruisers and the vast majority of escorts in pugs. My engi alt even flies a rainbow boat just for kicks. I'm not an ultra elite uber pilot but I think my cruiser can bring enough utility on top of tanking and DPS to be worthwhile.
Actually, perhaps we're talking circles around the real problem without realizing it. I have had decent experiences with cruisers because I stick to the more tactical albeit free ones, the Assault cruiser and the free Ody. I suspect a lot of the people saying that cruisers are weak are playing with cruisers that lean toward engineering or science.
Honestly, I think that's almost a trap. Sure they'll be nearly unkillable but you don't need that much to survive in PvE, so they are over designed toward tanking and have trouble holding agro. Why be weighted down with 4 layers of armor when 2 will do just fine? I think in the earlier stages of the game it was assumed and planned for that there would be content that would better use the galaxy's extreme engineering abilities (for example), as we know no such content ever came about, but the ship designs made with it in mind remain. Or maybe these overtanked designs were valid with the old STFs? If that's the case the real issue is that the overtanked ships are not relevant for current or likely future content and need a redesign?
Finally a response that doesn't make me feel like slapping you upside the head. I actually enjoyed reading most of this post, so thank you for your input.
But you do bring up a valid point. Many players do blame the ships instead of themselves, which I too find annoying. But tbh, a lot of the cruisers are rather sci and engi oriented, so it makes dpsing a little harder for those who don't know exactly what to do. And you have to admit that it is not the easiest thing in the world to do.
I bothered to learn my ship, learn how to get max dps out of it, but unfortunately, with the larger ships, they still can't keep up, which is why since so much PvE end game content is max damage in shortest time, cruisers SEEM to be useless. I never said they were, I just said it seemed like it. Maybe I am doin something wrong, probably, but at this point, I am just too bleh to really care. I know you probably don't support the HBA idea or the Flagship Aura idea, but it's a start, at least for casual players who don't want to have to build perfect builds and learn perfect playstyle.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Outside of uber healing, cruisers have been a joke for over 2 years now.
I don't know about for 2 years but certainly since season 6.
Before season 6 went live I had a good cruiser build, fair damage (obviously never kept up with escorts but as stated previously "It's their job", but I was capable of soloing stuff in a reasonable time when the need arose), good tanking and fair support capability. The one thing I can thank season 6 for is that it has improved my team play, I throw around more heals than before but with the drop in my damage potential I have noticed a drop in my tanking ability (the two of these actually correlate).
That said, I have built an 8 beam oddy on the basis of its good for a damage sponge and (due to its turn rate) not much else. That thing is damn near indestructible (though I did build it with the opposite principles to those of my excel).
My excelsior still brings down oddys when its needed (all be it slowly) however my oddy would find itself in a stalemate with my excel. I look at some oddys in PvP and wonder what on Earth they are doing with such a rubbish build, my tacs escort shreds them in 30 seconds to 1 minute.
Okay, for what it's worth I am just going to give my feedback in the hopes that a dev sees it.
I am an engineer, flying a cruiser. I am spec'd for beam damage and healing. I have 7 purple mk XII beams, and run dual emergency power to weapons which keeps the power levels up. MACO shields with the rest of the Borg modules.
In STF's I feel like a joke.
In Infected, I usually have to be bailed out in destroying one of the four generator things, because I am often the last to get it down to 10%. I still get blown up, so it's not like I'm even that impervious to compensate for the lack of power.
I love my Galaxy, but I've taken her as far as I know how, yet I still feel like a complete noob.
I wish to thank hereticknight085 for creating this interesting thread.
I have read every page up to this point and I hope I have understood at least most of it.
Hopefully the points I have to add are at least somewhat constructive.
I undestand the discussion that has come up taime and again that some ships, given this game's Trek nature, should have more importance than other much smaller ships.
Something like this works very well in specific genres like tabletop and strategy games.
However while it may be possible in a tabletop to counter a 3000 points heavy battleship with two 1000 points heavy cruisers and a paif of 500 point destroyers, ina game such as this such a thing is not easily possible.
So each ship has to be constructed around those 3000 points (which are of course just an arbitrary example).
To achieve this it might be prudent to look at each ship class and each individual ship in it on an abstract level.
Each ship is a container of attirbutes.
Both positive and negative which should in the end all add up to the same level as those of every other ship, even if the ships themselves are very different from others.
A historic example of this (yes I know there are people who hat those) is the perspective at the comparison between battleships and battlecruisers of similar mass.
The battleships used a high percentage of their mass (something around 20% or more) for armor while the battlecruisers used theirs for a larger propulsion system.
Even though it migh seem dull, I think a "game of percentages" could work , where we figure out how much much impact certain positive or negative characteristics have on a ship might help us figure out how useful a ship is overall.
And of course where to add or or substract from a ship to bring it in line with the others.
The first character I created in STO was a Fed (obviously;) ) Engineer .
Since I have access to it I fly him in a Star Cruiser.
I know there are those who find this ship stupid *looks at angrytarg*.
But when I read about the purpose of cruisers in STO and looked at what this ship provides compared to its then-only-counterpart, the Assault Cruiser, I decided it was more suited for the actual purpose of cruisers than the Assault.
However even with Mk12 MACO set this ship's survivability against Elite Tac Cubes is about as high as that of my Advanced Escort: either it lives or it blows up from a magic 75k crit (after shields).
So at least in case of this ship it seems that while it can survive a lot better in general, real massive firepower can still wipe it off the map with one stroke.
That it can't do loads of damage does not bother me on this ship at all, that's not what I want it for.
In case of the Galaxy-R which I also have on this char thanks to the VA token, I have to add that I can not get the same amount of usefulness out of this ship.
It seems that the reduced mobility is not outdone by the added hull even if I just compare these two ships.
So even within the cruiser class itself there is already a large discrepancy in overall usefulness between the ships.
I believe at least such "big cruisers" as the Star Cruiser and the Galaxy-R con't bring enough defensive capability to the table (again I don't use these for damage while I understand there are thos who want the Galaxy to do more damage) while smaller ones like the Excelsior at least have an added agility, firepower and defensive bonus to work with.
So what could be done to make them more useful?
IMHO added resistance to damage perhaps either though an innate Resilient bonus to all kinds of shields (?) and/or an innate resitance to hull damage
(should be possible when you look at the innate crew regen on the retrofit Olympic)
or possibly more power to specific subsystems like shields and aux to increase their shield resitance and hull regen in this way.
If they are supposed to tank, let them tank.
I think what the devs should do is just release new weapons for ships, that why they can tie them in the story e.g a klingon esorst's weapons are so powerful starfleet made these weapons to compete with there or something like that, this way we get something new. Cruiser I think new some new beams weapons they give it a bit more kick. Forget reducing the ships stats etc leave it as it is and just add new stuff so people can also compete more. I was think maybe a heavy beam array or rapid fire beam array. I know for a fact the in insurrection and nemesis we see the E fire its phaser alot faster then usual and for some reason they are a different colour in nemesis, sure maybe they changed it to make it look cooler or something but for a technical point its maybe a new type of beam or something?
Well to keep the current 'balance' any heavy beams would have to take longer to recharge thus it would have the same DPS problem as the current beams just as rapid fire beams would yield lower damage per hit thus having the same DPS.
sorry but the current version of 'balance' negates both of these ideas
I think what the devs should do is just release new weapons for ships, that why they can tie them in the story e.g a klingon esorst's weapons are so powerful starfleet made these weapons to compete with there or something like that, this way we get something new. Cruiser I think new some new beams weapons they give it a bit more kick. Forget reducing the ships stats etc leave it as it is and just add new stuff so people can also compete more. I was think maybe a heavy beam array or rapid fire beam array. I know for a fact the in insurrection and nemesis we see the E fire its phaser alot faster then usual and for some reason they are a different colour in nemesis, sure maybe they changed it to make it look cooler or something but for a technical point its maybe a new type of beam or something?
Your thoughts please.
I don't understand how this would solve anything.
As far as Nemesis is concerned you might want to keep in mind that
-the E-E's Phasers did not fire any faster than those of the E-D in "Best of Both Worlds"
-that the Quantum torpedos in "Nemesis" suddenly sounded exactly like the unipulse guns the Starfuries on "Bablyon 5" use
-the director of that movie was convinced Geordi was an alien
-the director thought Starfleet weapons were called "lasers"
As far as Nemesis is concerned you might want to keep in mind that
-the E-E's Phasers did not fire any faster than those of the E-D in "Best of Both Worlds"
-that the Quantum torpedos in "Nemesis" suddenly sounded exactly like the unipulse guns the Starfuries on "Bablyon 5" use
-the director of that movie was convinced Geordi was an alien
-the director thought Starfleet weapons were called "lasers"
True the director is an idoit and should off gone with Jonathan Frakes or someone from star trek, Nemesis is just a remake of Wrath of Khan but still had one of the best action scenes. True the Ent-D phaser beams have been shown to fire just as first as the E-E's phasers and yeah I prefer the orignal sound of the Quantum torpdeo laucher. At least im coming up with some ideas to help solve the problem, what do you have? :P
true the director is an idoit and should off gone with Jonathan Frakes or someone from star trek, True the Ent-D phaser beams have been shown to fire just as first as the E-E's phasers. At least im coming up with some ideas to help solve the problem, what do you have? :P
Interesting yet its too complicated and I don't think the devs would go for it. I would though.
You're probably right, but thanks anyway.
I should clarify: my original response to your idea was not meant as a rejection, more like a challenge to gimme more.:)
Could you please put in more details?
A buddy of mine and I have been playing with a few ideas and our ideas were to add more beam types, one of them with more dps but reduced range (and higher power demand) and one with less dps but a higher max range than 10.
The former as a possible cruiser-only weapons option and the latter exclusively for science ships (which would allow them to support from a distance)
As far as Nemesis is concerned you might want to keep in mind that
-the E-E's Phasers did not fire any faster than those of the E-D in "Best of Both Worlds"
-that the Quantum torpedos in "Nemesis" suddenly sounded exactly like the unipulse guns the Starfuries on "Bablyon 5" use
-the director of that movie was convinced Geordi was an alien
-the director thought Starfleet weapons were called "lasers"
The owners of Star Trek apparently have developed a bizarre opinion about who is capable to make a Star Trek product, lol.
I haven't seen ANYTHING Enterprise -E did which the previous enterprise couldn't. It's a shame they killed that ship in ST:7, i found that more mounful that kirks death, to be honest. They could have given the -D a refit betwen ST:7 and ST:8 something like a mix between the Venture (STOs venture class) and the original Galaxy design.
I think ST:8 would have been much better with a Enterprise -D, just imagine the coridors we all known, now "borgizied". A Galaxy Class fly by in the Battle or when the Phoenix finished its first warp flight.
Thank you for reading.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
The only ship in the game i see that is geared towrds it strength is escorts. And probably cause it is easiest to do so.
Cruisers captained by engineers, leveled for threat and surviving are unbelievable ships. Cruisers have the abilty to put constant pressure on a traget while staying alive.
And dont say escorts can tank. They cant. Being geared enough to take out a cube isnt tanking. And there is a whole lotta flyin away to do that. A cruiser geared to its strength can easily tank a tac cube. My bro's oddy tanks the scimitar in khittomer like a boss.
Sci vessels are support. Gear for it. Every mmo has it. I wanna see sci's healing and shutting down the tragets systems.
The imbalance in the game is when everyone tries to be the dd. no mmo exists like this.
If you an eng and in a cruiser be the tank. Be the guy that gets the cubes attention so the escorts can keep up pressure without being blown to bits.
If your a sci in a sci vessel. Heal the tank. Debuff the target. Make the party stronger.
PvP is different but every cruiser needs an escort buddy. And every escort needs a cruiser buddy.
How dare you be sensible in a noobrage thread?
Now go put on your tinfoil hat, switch to an eye-meltingly green font and start ranting incoherently about how an Escort sexually abused your dog.
Edit: lolwordfilter. Are the mods 8 on top of being morons?
I haven't seen ANYTHING Enterprise -E did which the previous enterprise couldn't.
With regard to this, Starfleet had developed new technology that the Galaxy class just wasn't capable of running (the sovi had better shields, impulse drive, power system, warp drive, tactical systems and sensor arrays) and as we all know the flagship ALWAYS hosts the fleets best technology, it's more of a test bed that some of the high end science ships. Not only that but Starfleet was working on a new look as well, a more streamlined and sleek design for their ships (which turned out to be an improvement upon their combat capability and as it happens their ability to drive into other ships, it also showed development of their own rather than using their neighbours designs for inspiration (see klingon ships then look at the Galaxy class)), frankly the bulky Galaxy design was just that, bulky, which was it's primary design flaw as it wasn't a brilliant turner and should an enemy escape the forward phaser banks the Galaxy was at an immediate and severe disadvantage, which happens to be the reason the galaxy was only the flagship for 7 years (compared to other more successful designs (such as the Excelsior) which were far longer).
I'm sorry to say that the Galaxy turn rate is close to right in game, I think it could use an extra point but it should never be fast due to it's bulk, I think what it is missing is that 90 degree arc of death in front of it (all the ships weaknesses but none of it's strengths), with it's low turn rate and speed it more than pays for the hull it has and fire-power it lacks.
There's no shame being the healer in the team, I don't get why you guys see it this way. You remind me 13yo players saying they don't want to do "the dirty job" in khittomer space, which is probe guard duty. I still dont get why.
You can't have a multipurpose ship good in everything because it's not the way the game is designed, and I don't see many people complaining about it except a handfull of forum users. You can always ask for a complete ship revamp in game but I'd like to see more stuff to do in game before having a ship revamp taking a whole season of content away from us to satisfy some players.
There's no shame being the healer in the team, I don't get why you guys see it this way. You remind me 13yo players saying they don't want to do "the dirty job" in khittomer space, which is probe guard duty. I still dont get why.
You can't have a multipurpose ship good in everything because it's not the way the game is designed, and I don't see many people complaining about it except a handfull of forum users.
In all fairness I when using my tac I'm quite happy to take probes in KASE, I even give the Kang a go in CSE and would do so with my engineer... oh wait... her cruiser can't put out the required damage figures... oh dear.
Anyway, back to the point at hand, Yes I do want a ship that is good at everything (I had that the DAY before Season 6 went live, then my damage was halved the very next day) it was by no means the best in any regard (except making me happy that I could play any role) I was happy being out-gunned by escorts (It's their and I recognise this), I was happy being out scienced by science ships (again, it's their job and I recognise that) and I out-tanked both so overall I had a very STAR TREK cruiser, filled every role but was only the best in my designed role.
I had a multi-purpose ship which was balanced against all other ships, people who played to escort strengths could easily do more damage than me, people who had played to cruiser strengths could tank better than me and people who played to science strengths did science better than me, but I was FAIRLY (Emphasis on "Fair") good at whatever the team asked me to do
Why is this too much to ask NOW if it wasn't until season 6?
Anyway, back to the point at hand, Yes I do want a ship that is good at everything (I had that the DAY before Season 6 went live, then my damage was halved the very next day) it was by no means the best in any regard (except making me happy that I could play any role)
Can you elaborate on what ship you have, or anything unusual you have equipped? Its just weird things would change so drastically from one day to the next and its not a widespread bug.
Can you elaborate on what ship you have, or anything unusual you have equipped? Its just weird things would change so drastically from one day to the next and its not a widespread bug.
I'm afraid I can't, I can give you link o another post that shows what I was using though
Assuming a single target and FAW being active my build roughly peaks at 3,400 DPS.
Take away FAW and it drops down to 2,800. Stupidly large drop imo considering the low numbers to begin with(600DPS).
So I run a 2,800 DPS build.
An Escort with equivalent gear and specing (cannons instead of arrays etc) with its abilities activated peaks at roughly 6,900 DPS.
Remove those abilities and it drops to 3,700 DPS.
6,900-3,400=3,500
3,700-2,800=900
So between similarly equipped, roughly, we see a difference of 900-3,500 DPS.
And seeing as you can rotate abilities to increase overall sustained DPS for PvE or smash them all for PvP... that adds up.
Those aren't small numbers. Even at the closest point between the two its almost a full 33% more potent than the Cruiser's and at its highest its a almost a 50% increase over the Cruisers output.
This is assuming that its an Engineer in the Cruiser and a Tactical in the Escort.
Put the Tactical in the Cruiser and it peaks around 4,500 due to increased number of buffs provided from the Captain. And 2,950 without. That's a change of 1,540, yeesh.
6,900-4,500=2,400
3,700-2,950=750
A difference of 750-2,400
Tac Captain vs the Engineering Captain in the same Cruiser is:
4,500 peak for Tac
Difference is 1,100DPS at best output
3,400 peak for Eng
2,950 low for Tac
Difference is 150DPS at lowest output
2,800 low for Eng.
Escorts are fine. Tac Captains are OP when in Escorts.
And Cruisers have some issues.
In all fairness I when using my tac I'm quite happy to take probes in KASE, I even give the Kang a go in CSE and would do so with my engineer... oh wait... her cruiser can't put out the required damage figures... oh dear.
Uh I can do that with my eng on a cruiser, so I don't get what you did but something's wrong. The kang and the probes are a cruisers' job, that's obvious and not hard for them.
Anyway, this isn't only Star Trek, it's also a game where you have to make some choices and it will impact on your game experience, ie on what you can do. Want to pew pew things? Fly an escort. Want to assist/heal others like mad? Any cruiser will do. Want to debuff, being the guy who can make others ragequit in pvp? Fly a science ship!
You can love the galaxy badly but it won't become magically what you want it to be. It's called a cruiser, so it has cruiser abilities, period. That's not hard to figure out. People not getting that don't understand STO is a game with specific game mechanics, it's not a Star Trek life simulation.
Ill ask what I ask everyone, who said escorts are fragile? I think I remember a certain defiant class ship, being a massive tank... cough
Give me a defiant flyed by a tac in the opposite team. It's a gift from the gods for a science captain! Trust me I can make him weak as hell. Of course if you have no sci flying a science ship, or just an idiot spamming grav wells like mad as if he was playing a stf, it won't work, but a defiant can really become a weak and puny ship other escorts can deal with.
Uh I can do that with my eng on a cruiser, so I don't get what you did but something's wrong. The kang and the probes are a cruisers' job, that's obvious and not hard for them.
Anyway, this isn't only Star Trek, it's also a game where you have to make some choices and it will impact on your game experience, ie on what you can do. Want to pew pew things? Fly an escort. Want to assist/heal others like mad? Any cruiser will do. Want to debuff, being the guy who can make others ragequit in pvp? Fly a science ship!
You can love the galaxy badly but it won't become magically what you want it to be. It's called a cruiser, so it has cruiser abilities, period. That's not hard to figure out. People not getting that don't understand STO is a game with specific game mechanics, it's not a Star Trek life simulation.
Firstly I use en excelsior, the Galaxy really is a joke for all useful roles in PvE (baring in mind how fast escorts rip thins apart anyway) I use an excelsior and my tac in the same ship with the same equipment and BOFF skills gets more UNBUFFED damage out of it then the buffed damage is also stupidly higher than the eng in the same ship.
What I want is to have a realistic damage figure for my eng in an excelsior, 200 damage per hit (unbuffed) running this is silly when I can get twice that (unbuffed) from a tac captain from the same damned thing and while she can't keep up with the Kang (but her escort can) she can do KASE probes.
please, explain to me again how I'm no good at the game and how I want my cruisers to magically be something they should never be and can never be. all I want is for my cruiser to perform now the same way it did the day before season 6 went live.
How dare you be sensible in a noobrage thread?
Now go put on your tinfoil hat, switch to an eye-meltingly green font and start ranting incoherently about how an Escort sexually abused your dog.
Edit: lolwordfilter. Are the mods 8 on top of being morons?
WALL OF TEXT ALERT.
Noobrage thread. Not really. He has a point with his post. But he forgets one thing. In most situations OTHER than PvP, cruisers are pointless. Escorts don't need healers. They seriously don't. I fly an escort. I have enough sustain and tanking ability that I don't need a healer. I can survive just fine without them. Whereas my cruiser kinda just sits looking pretty and pew pewing with little to to effect.
I am not asking that Cruisers become primary DDs, I know that's the escorts job. Yet everyone seems to think that I am saying we need it. So let me put things straight once and for all.
I am NOT asking that cruisers become main damage dealers. I am NOT asking that escorts be put out of the job. I am NOT only bashing escorts, for that matter I am NOT bashing ANY SHIP CLASS WHATSOEVER. I know what a cruiser's job is. I know what an escort's job is. I know what a science ship's job used to be.
That being said, the ONLY reason I ask for weapons like the Heavy Beam Array and things like the leader Aura is because I think (not KNOW but THINK) that cruisers have been rendered obsolete. I THINK they aren't needed anymore because of the sustain that escorts have. Due to that, they don't need the healers/support nearly as much. Since in all honesty, escorts kill things so fast whatever it is they are attacking won't have the time to deal enough damage to them to make a true healer needed. That's not OP, that's just what they do. I don't want a nerf on escorts (ok, maybe a slight durability reduction, ok maybe not so slight lol...), I just want something that makes cruisers worth flying again.
My AC is pretty tanky, and can survive quite well. And it deals OK damage. Barely acceptable. I know I will NEVER deal as much damage as an escort can. And for crying out loud, I have NEVER asked to be able to. It's NOT my job. But I want some bite. Something other than a little tickle. That was the Heavy Beam Array idea. The flagship aura was just an added idea I know is not going to happen and it's only purpose was so that those higher tier cruisers would have another reason to be there. Since they are support, why not give them more support prowess with that kind of buff?
Hence why the thread name. Cruisers seem to be a joke to me. I am not doing the usual CRUISER NEED TO BECOME ALL POWERFUL!!! NO! They don't. All I was asking IF YOU BOTHERED TO READ THE FIRST POST OF THIS THREAD is that they don't seem to be needed. So I merely offered suggestions that would make them an actually useful part of a team in an STF or other PvE. Sorry PvPers, but this game is mostly PvE, so unfortunately, cruisers are useful in PvP, but to most players in this game, that is meaningless.
So no, this is not a noobrage thread. I don't mean to sound rude (ok maybe a little) but if you bothered to read the initial post that I started the thread with, you would know that. I will agree that all of the subsequent responses are kinda noobrage and are asking for cruisers to be majorly buffed, but that was not the point of this thread.
The point of this thread was to point out the seeming uselessness of cruisers. That's all. If you think otherwise, DO SO WITHOUT INSULTING OTHERS. It's really not necessary. And it's annoying and counterproductive. Every second someone wastes (yes WASTES) defending themselves from someone else's attacking post is a second they could be using to perhaps come up with something that would be HELPFUL. All these arguments starting in this thread, ENOUGH.
Please try to be constructive...
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Firstly I use en excelsior, the Galaxy really is a joke for all useful roles in PvE (baring in mind how fast escorts rip thins apart anyway) I use an excelsior and my tac in the same ship with the same equipment and BOFF skills gets more UNBUFFED damage out of it then the buffed damage is also stupidly higher than the eng in the same ship.
What I want is to have a realistic damage figure for my eng in an excelsior, 200 damage per hit (unbuffed) running this is silly when I can get twice that (unbuffed) from a tac captain from the same damned thing and while she can't keep up with the Kang (but her escort can) she can do KASE probes.
please, explain to me again how I'm no good at the game and how I want my cruisers to magically be something they should never be and can never be. all I want is for my cruiser to perform now the same way it did the day before season 6 went live.
I don't know I can't tell you why, I'm rather clueless here since I saw no change with my galor. I can still put a reasonable amount of dps for his incredible survivability. I might have an answer to give you if i could take a look at your build and at the way you play these stfs, but currently all I can tell you is that I don't understand.
Cruisers can have enough DPS to handle secondary tasks in fleet actions and STFs (healing objectives, probes, kang especially). They can't do the major pew-pewing but it's never been their role. Nothing changed as far as i know, because I can still achieve these objectives without any difficulity with my eng.
And both were upgraded ships at the time with the best they could get their hands on. Mind you the Lakota tried to disable not destroy the Defiant, but still most of Star Trek on TV has always been about disabling not destroying ships any ways.
If P2W was such a successful method, you would be seeing much much more of it. You don't.
Yup, due to the variance of equipment, and Boff's and ships, its hard to say that P2W is really all that. Even the Fleet ships with their bonuses means nothing if the player doesn't know how to do anything well.
Comments
Finally a response that doesn't make me feel like slapping you upside the head. I actually enjoyed reading most of this post, so thank you for your input.
But you do bring up a valid point. Many players do blame the ships instead of themselves, which I too find annoying. But tbh, a lot of the cruisers are rather sci and engi oriented, so it makes dpsing a little harder for those who don't know exactly what to do. And you have to admit that it is not the easiest thing in the world to do.
I bothered to learn my ship, learn how to get max dps out of it, but unfortunately, with the larger ships, they still can't keep up, which is why since so much PvE end game content is max damage in shortest time, cruisers SEEM to be useless. I never said they were, I just said it seemed like it. Maybe I am doin something wrong, probably, but at this point, I am just too bleh to really care. I know you probably don't support the HBA idea or the Flagship Aura idea, but it's a start, at least for casual players who don't want to have to build perfect builds and learn perfect playstyle.
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
I don't know about for 2 years but certainly since season 6.
Before season 6 went live I had a good cruiser build, fair damage (obviously never kept up with escorts but as stated previously "It's their job", but I was capable of soloing stuff in a reasonable time when the need arose), good tanking and fair support capability. The one thing I can thank season 6 for is that it has improved my team play, I throw around more heals than before but with the drop in my damage potential I have noticed a drop in my tanking ability (the two of these actually correlate).
That said, I have built an 8 beam oddy on the basis of its good for a damage sponge and (due to its turn rate) not much else. That thing is damn near indestructible (though I did build it with the opposite principles to those of my excel).
My excelsior still brings down oddys when its needed (all be it slowly) however my oddy would find itself in a stalemate with my excel. I look at some oddys in PvP and wonder what on Earth they are doing with such a rubbish build, my tacs escort shreds them in 30 seconds to 1 minute.
I am an engineer, flying a cruiser. I am spec'd for beam damage and healing. I have 7 purple mk XII beams, and run dual emergency power to weapons which keeps the power levels up. MACO shields with the rest of the Borg modules.
In STF's I feel like a joke.
In Infected, I usually have to be bailed out in destroying one of the four generator things, because I am often the last to get it down to 10%. I still get blown up, so it's not like I'm even that impervious to compensate for the lack of power.
I love my Galaxy, but I've taken her as far as I know how, yet I still feel like a complete noob.
I wish to thank hereticknight085 for creating this interesting thread.
I have read every page up to this point and I hope I have understood at least most of it.
Hopefully the points I have to add are at least somewhat constructive.
I undestand the discussion that has come up taime and again that some ships, given this game's Trek nature, should have more importance than other much smaller ships.
Something like this works very well in specific genres like tabletop and strategy games.
However while it may be possible in a tabletop to counter a 3000 points heavy battleship with two 1000 points heavy cruisers and a paif of 500 point destroyers, ina game such as this such a thing is not easily possible.
So each ship has to be constructed around those 3000 points (which are of course just an arbitrary example).
To achieve this it might be prudent to look at each ship class and each individual ship in it on an abstract level.
Each ship is a container of attirbutes.
Both positive and negative which should in the end all add up to the same level as those of every other ship, even if the ships themselves are very different from others.
A historic example of this (yes I know there are people who hat those) is the perspective at the comparison between battleships and battlecruisers of similar mass.
The battleships used a high percentage of their mass (something around 20% or more) for armor while the battlecruisers used theirs for a larger propulsion system.
Even though it migh seem dull, I think a "game of percentages" could work , where we figure out how much much impact certain positive or negative characteristics have on a ship might help us figure out how useful a ship is overall.
And of course where to add or or substract from a ship to bring it in line with the others.
The first character I created in STO was a Fed (obviously;) ) Engineer .
Since I have access to it I fly him in a Star Cruiser.
I know there are those who find this ship stupid *looks at angrytarg*.
But when I read about the purpose of cruisers in STO and looked at what this ship provides compared to its then-only-counterpart, the Assault Cruiser, I decided it was more suited for the actual purpose of cruisers than the Assault.
However even with Mk12 MACO set this ship's survivability against Elite Tac Cubes is about as high as that of my Advanced Escort: either it lives or it blows up from a magic 75k crit (after shields).
So at least in case of this ship it seems that while it can survive a lot better in general, real massive firepower can still wipe it off the map with one stroke.
That it can't do loads of damage does not bother me on this ship at all, that's not what I want it for.
In case of the Galaxy-R which I also have on this char thanks to the VA token, I have to add that I can not get the same amount of usefulness out of this ship.
It seems that the reduced mobility is not outdone by the added hull even if I just compare these two ships.
So even within the cruiser class itself there is already a large discrepancy in overall usefulness between the ships.
I believe at least such "big cruisers" as the Star Cruiser and the Galaxy-R con't bring enough defensive capability to the table (again I don't use these for damage while I understand there are thos who want the Galaxy to do more damage) while smaller ones like the Excelsior at least have an added agility, firepower and defensive bonus to work with.
So what could be done to make them more useful?
IMHO added resistance to damage perhaps either though an innate Resilient bonus to all kinds of shields (?) and/or an innate resitance to hull damage
(should be possible when you look at the innate crew regen on the retrofit Olympic)
or possibly more power to specific subsystems like shields and aux to increase their shield resitance and hull regen in this way.
If they are supposed to tank, let them tank.
I hope this long post makes some kind of sense.
Your thoughts please.
sorry but the current version of 'balance' negates both of these ideas
I don't understand how this would solve anything.
As far as Nemesis is concerned you might want to keep in mind that
-the E-E's Phasers did not fire any faster than those of the E-D in "Best of Both Worlds"
-that the Quantum torpedos in "Nemesis" suddenly sounded exactly like the unipulse guns the Starfuries on "Bablyon 5" use
-the director of that movie was convinced Geordi was an alien
-the director thought Starfleet weapons were called "lasers"
True the director is an idoit and should off gone with Jonathan Frakes or someone from star trek, Nemesis is just a remake of Wrath of Khan but still had one of the best action scenes. True the Ent-D phaser beams have been shown to fire just as first as the E-E's phasers and yeah I prefer the orignal sound of the Quantum torpdeo laucher. At least im coming up with some ideas to help solve the problem, what do you have? :P
Only that tiny small post right above yours.
Interesting yet its too complicated and I don't think the devs would go for it. I would though.
You're probably right, but thanks anyway.
I should clarify: my original response to your idea was not meant as a rejection, more like a challenge to gimme more.:)
Could you please put in more details?
A buddy of mine and I have been playing with a few ideas and our ideas were to add more beam types, one of them with more dps but reduced range (and higher power demand) and one with less dps but a higher max range than 10.
The former as a possible cruiser-only weapons option and the latter exclusively for science ships (which would allow them to support from a distance)
I haven't seen ANYTHING Enterprise -E did which the previous enterprise couldn't. It's a shame they killed that ship in ST:7, i found that more mounful that kirks death, to be honest. They could have given the -D a refit betwen ST:7 and ST:8 something like a mix between the Venture (STOs venture class) and the original Galaxy design.
I think ST:8 would have been much better with a Enterprise -D, just imagine the coridors we all known, now "borgizied". A Galaxy Class fly by in the Battle or when the Phoenix finished its first warp flight.
Thank you for reading.
How dare you be sensible in a noobrage thread?
Now go put on your tinfoil hat, switch to an eye-meltingly green font and start ranting incoherently about how an Escort sexually abused your dog.
Edit: lolwordfilter. Are the mods 8 on top of being morons?
Yes, that they do
With regard to this, Starfleet had developed new technology that the Galaxy class just wasn't capable of running (the sovi had better shields, impulse drive, power system, warp drive, tactical systems and sensor arrays) and as we all know the flagship ALWAYS hosts the fleets best technology, it's more of a test bed that some of the high end science ships. Not only that but Starfleet was working on a new look as well, a more streamlined and sleek design for their ships (which turned out to be an improvement upon their combat capability and as it happens their ability to drive into other ships, it also showed development of their own rather than using their neighbours designs for inspiration (see klingon ships then look at the Galaxy class)), frankly the bulky Galaxy design was just that, bulky, which was it's primary design flaw as it wasn't a brilliant turner and should an enemy escape the forward phaser banks the Galaxy was at an immediate and severe disadvantage, which happens to be the reason the galaxy was only the flagship for 7 years (compared to other more successful designs (such as the Excelsior) which were far longer).
I'm sorry to say that the Galaxy turn rate is close to right in game, I think it could use an extra point but it should never be fast due to it's bulk, I think what it is missing is that 90 degree arc of death in front of it (all the ships weaknesses but none of it's strengths), with it's low turn rate and speed it more than pays for the hull it has and fire-power it lacks.
Just my 2 pence
You can't have a multipurpose ship good in everything because it's not the way the game is designed, and I don't see many people complaining about it except a handfull of forum users. You can always ask for a complete ship revamp in game but I'd like to see more stuff to do in game before having a ship revamp taking a whole season of content away from us to satisfy some players.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
In all fairness I when using my tac I'm quite happy to take probes in KASE, I even give the Kang a go in CSE and would do so with my engineer... oh wait... her cruiser can't put out the required damage figures... oh dear.
Anyway, back to the point at hand, Yes I do want a ship that is good at everything (I had that the DAY before Season 6 went live, then my damage was halved the very next day) it was by no means the best in any regard (except making me happy that I could play any role) I was happy being out-gunned by escorts (It's their and I recognise this), I was happy being out scienced by science ships (again, it's their job and I recognise that) and I out-tanked both so overall I had a very STAR TREK cruiser, filled every role but was only the best in my designed role.
I had a multi-purpose ship which was balanced against all other ships, people who played to escort strengths could easily do more damage than me, people who had played to cruiser strengths could tank better than me and people who played to science strengths did science better than me, but I was FAIRLY (Emphasis on "Fair") good at whatever the team asked me to do
Why is this too much to ask NOW if it wasn't until season 6?
Can you elaborate on what ship you have, or anything unusual you have equipped? Its just weird things would change so drastically from one day to the next and its not a widespread bug.
I'm afraid I can't, I can give you link o another post that shows what I was using though
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=5887421&postcount=42
I hope this helps you
Take away FAW and it drops down to 2,800. Stupidly large drop imo considering the low numbers to begin with(600DPS).
So I run a 2,800 DPS build.
An Escort with equivalent gear and specing (cannons instead of arrays etc) with its abilities activated peaks at roughly 6,900 DPS.
Remove those abilities and it drops to 3,700 DPS.
6,900-3,400=3,500
3,700-2,800=900
So between similarly equipped, roughly, we see a difference of 900-3,500 DPS.
And seeing as you can rotate abilities to increase overall sustained DPS for PvE or smash them all for PvP... that adds up.
Those aren't small numbers. Even at the closest point between the two its almost a full 33% more potent than the Cruiser's and at its highest its a almost a 50% increase over the Cruisers output.
This is assuming that its an Engineer in the Cruiser and a Tactical in the Escort.
Put the Tactical in the Cruiser and it peaks around 4,500 due to increased number of buffs provided from the Captain. And 2,950 without. That's a change of 1,540, yeesh.
6,900-4,500=2,400
3,700-2,950=750
A difference of 750-2,400
Tac Captain vs the Engineering Captain in the same Cruiser is:
4,500 peak for Tac
Difference is 1,100DPS at best output
3,400 peak for Eng
2,950 low for Tac
Difference is 150DPS at lowest output
2,800 low for Eng.
Escorts are fine. Tac Captains are OP when in Escorts.
And Cruisers have some issues.
Uh I can do that with my eng on a cruiser, so I don't get what you did but something's wrong. The kang and the probes are a cruisers' job, that's obvious and not hard for them.
Anyway, this isn't only Star Trek, it's also a game where you have to make some choices and it will impact on your game experience, ie on what you can do. Want to pew pew things? Fly an escort. Want to assist/heal others like mad? Any cruiser will do. Want to debuff, being the guy who can make others ragequit in pvp? Fly a science ship!
You can love the galaxy badly but it won't become magically what you want it to be. It's called a cruiser, so it has cruiser abilities, period. That's not hard to figure out. People not getting that don't understand STO is a game with specific game mechanics, it's not a Star Trek life simulation.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
Give me a defiant flyed by a tac in the opposite team. It's a gift from the gods for a science captain! Trust me I can make him weak as hell. Of course if you have no sci flying a science ship, or just an idiot spamming grav wells like mad as if he was playing a stf, it won't work, but a defiant can really become a weak and puny ship other escorts can deal with.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
Firstly I use en excelsior, the Galaxy really is a joke for all useful roles in PvE (baring in mind how fast escorts rip thins apart anyway) I use an excelsior and my tac in the same ship with the same equipment and BOFF skills gets more UNBUFFED damage out of it then the buffed damage is also stupidly higher than the eng in the same ship.
What I want is to have a realistic damage figure for my eng in an excelsior, 200 damage per hit (unbuffed) running this is silly when I can get twice that (unbuffed) from a tac captain from the same damned thing and while she can't keep up with the Kang (but her escort can) she can do KASE probes.
please, explain to me again how I'm no good at the game and how I want my cruisers to magically be something they should never be and can never be. all I want is for my cruiser to perform now the same way it did the day before season 6 went live.
WALL OF TEXT ALERT.
Noobrage thread. Not really. He has a point with his post. But he forgets one thing. In most situations OTHER than PvP, cruisers are pointless. Escorts don't need healers. They seriously don't. I fly an escort. I have enough sustain and tanking ability that I don't need a healer. I can survive just fine without them. Whereas my cruiser kinda just sits looking pretty and pew pewing with little to to effect.
I am not asking that Cruisers become primary DDs, I know that's the escorts job. Yet everyone seems to think that I am saying we need it. So let me put things straight once and for all.
I am NOT asking that cruisers become main damage dealers. I am NOT asking that escorts be put out of the job. I am NOT only bashing escorts, for that matter I am NOT bashing ANY SHIP CLASS WHATSOEVER. I know what a cruiser's job is. I know what an escort's job is. I know what a science ship's job used to be.
That being said, the ONLY reason I ask for weapons like the Heavy Beam Array and things like the leader Aura is because I think (not KNOW but THINK) that cruisers have been rendered obsolete. I THINK they aren't needed anymore because of the sustain that escorts have. Due to that, they don't need the healers/support nearly as much. Since in all honesty, escorts kill things so fast whatever it is they are attacking won't have the time to deal enough damage to them to make a true healer needed. That's not OP, that's just what they do. I don't want a nerf on escorts (ok, maybe a slight durability reduction, ok maybe not so slight lol...), I just want something that makes cruisers worth flying again.
My AC is pretty tanky, and can survive quite well. And it deals OK damage. Barely acceptable. I know I will NEVER deal as much damage as an escort can. And for crying out loud, I have NEVER asked to be able to. It's NOT my job. But I want some bite. Something other than a little tickle. That was the Heavy Beam Array idea. The flagship aura was just an added idea I know is not going to happen and it's only purpose was so that those higher tier cruisers would have another reason to be there. Since they are support, why not give them more support prowess with that kind of buff?
Hence why the thread name. Cruisers seem to be a joke to me. I am not doing the usual CRUISER NEED TO BECOME ALL POWERFUL!!! NO! They don't. All I was asking IF YOU BOTHERED TO READ THE FIRST POST OF THIS THREAD is that they don't seem to be needed. So I merely offered suggestions that would make them an actually useful part of a team in an STF or other PvE. Sorry PvPers, but this game is mostly PvE, so unfortunately, cruisers are useful in PvP, but to most players in this game, that is meaningless.
So no, this is not a noobrage thread. I don't mean to sound rude (ok maybe a little) but if you bothered to read the initial post that I started the thread with, you would know that. I will agree that all of the subsequent responses are kinda noobrage and are asking for cruisers to be majorly buffed, but that was not the point of this thread.
The point of this thread was to point out the seeming uselessness of cruisers. That's all. If you think otherwise, DO SO WITHOUT INSULTING OTHERS. It's really not necessary. And it's annoying and counterproductive. Every second someone wastes (yes WASTES) defending themselves from someone else's attacking post is a second they could be using to perhaps come up with something that would be HELPFUL. All these arguments starting in this thread, ENOUGH.
Please try to be constructive...
I don't know I can't tell you why, I'm rather clueless here since I saw no change with my galor. I can still put a reasonable amount of dps for his incredible survivability. I might have an answer to give you if i could take a look at your build and at the way you play these stfs, but currently all I can tell you is that I don't understand.
Cruisers can have enough DPS to handle secondary tasks in fleet actions and STFs (healing objectives, probes, kang especially). They can't do the major pew-pewing but it's never been their role. Nothing changed as far as i know, because I can still achieve these objectives without any difficulity with my eng.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
I disagree, the Defiant did not too bad with Worf at the helm ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IByE09voICU
And both were upgraded ships at the time with the best they could get their hands on. Mind you the Lakota tried to disable not destroy the Defiant, but still most of Star Trek on TV has always been about disabling not destroying ships any ways.
While my cruiser ain't the best, I whole heartedly agree.
Yup, due to the variance of equipment, and Boff's and ships, its hard to say that P2W is really all that. Even the Fleet ships with their bonuses means nothing if the player doesn't know how to do anything well.
Jim