Call me a noob, call me an idiot, call me what you will for what I am about to say.
As per my opening statement "Call me what you will"
Fine, I'll call you what I will....."honest."
You've said nothing that most of us haven't thought before and even more of us have heard several times. (edit: this isn't meant to be rude, sorry if it sounds that way)While I personally have no problem with each ship type succeeding at it's role better than the rest and being at a disadvantage outside of that role, the current extremes that design has been taken too for cruisers is ridiculous.
Cruisers aren't as damaging as escorts are tough. See the previous stories for examples.
Also sci ships are not nearly as good at crowd control as escorts are DPS, it requires a little planning to even get sci control powers with maxed out skills to work in PVP or STFs. Gravity well holds nothing on its own, energy drain is highly resisted, scramble sensors doesn't work for long on AI's and can cause a miserable bug in PVP. The only control powers that are really reliable are tractor beams and tractor beam repulsors, both of which are resisted by skills and a few Boff powers in PVP.
Also novathelegend, it was interesting to read your thoughts on the subject and you may very well be right, that solution of yours is probably more work then we'll ever get out of the Dev's at this point.
quite frankly I fed up of being told I can only do 1 thing OR the other, it's the complete opposite of the cruisers purpose which is to be moderately good at dealing damage and doing science stuff but brilliant at taking damage so that they are out done by escorts for damage and by science in science matters while out doing both the other classes in damage taking without losing their entire ability fill the other 2 roles.
If everyone can solo something in a decent amount of time (doing fair damage) not only will players have a better capacity to handle stuff and as a result teams have a better capacity to handle things. This will in turn increase the sale of ships in the C-store and thus make more money. At this rate I'm just going to stop playing because playing a damage sponge isn't fun, ripping ships to spacedust in under 20 seconds is equally not fun and just being pretty much useful is... oh wait... not fun either
I also think that for there to be true tanking in this game, which I think cruisers were intended for, there needs to be a better system for threat generation.
There IS. Its just that most cruiser pilots don't take the full 9 points (or indeed any) into threat generation. That added to a decent DPS output will mean a cruiser will comfortably hold agro. To test this I put my engi alt into a free Ody and just to give it a little flavor I made into a rainbow boat. My engi alt holds agro, survives and often out DPS's some of the escorts. People just need to L2P. That's not directed to anyone in particular, but rather to the mass of STO cruiser pilots that never really learn how to fly cruisers because the game's leveling process doesn't really teach anyone anything.
There IS. Its just that most cruiser pilots don't take the full 9 points (or indeed any) into threat generation. That added to a decent DPS output will mean a cruiser will comfortably hold agro. To test this I put my engi alt into a free Ody and just to give it a little flavor I made into a rainbow boat. My engi alt holds agro, survives and often out DPS's some of the escorts. People just need to L2P. That's not directed to anyone in particular, but rather to the mass of STO cruiser pilots that never really learn how to fly cruisers because the game's leveling process doesn't really teach anyone anything.
I fly an Oddy with 6 points in Threat Control, tried 9 found it didnt make much of a difference (confirmed by some of my fleet buddies) and went back to 6. Yes it helps obtain and hold aggro. But no, it's still not enough. I have a good set up with weapons and equipment and while there are times I can tank, in the true sense of that word, the 'bosses' in STFs if an escort decides to go all out and they usually do (and some also put in points for Threat Control which is a whole other post) there's nothing i can do to prevent me from losing aggro. Maybe escort pilots never really learn how to fly escorts because the game's leveling process doesn't really teach anyone anything.
Ok cheap shot. But what I'm saying is that I agree with some of the above posters, something more that the current Threat Control system is needed if that's the main methodology for cruisers tanking.
Cruiser ships get an innate defensive bonus, no matter what their speed or engine power levels. In addition, possibly getting an innate damage bonus to ONLY beams and torpedoes (what they're best at). Their slow turn rates and inertia are what balance this.
What you really want is for cruisers to be uber. So why play anything else? In an effort to see if there's any truth to the "cruisers are weak" arguments, and my engi cruiser on a rainbow boat does just fine in its intended role of tanking/dps in STFs. So to anyone saying their cruisers are weak, all I can say is L2P.
Maybe escort pilots never really learn how to fly escorts because the game's leveling process doesn't really teach anyone anything.
No, even in easy facerolling PvE escorts are tinfoil until a player learns to fly them and build them.
Now your point of an Escort pilot investing into threat generation is valid, but then they're gimping some of their potential damage for the extra defenses it gives, which is similar to how my cruiser gives up some defense for extra DPS ability. Not to mention that as soon as it agroes more than one thing its going to be pressed to survive instead of comfortably DPSing.
All that said I do think cruisers could have a better turn radius, maybe a +1 or +2 would be enough to get over how sluggish they feel. My Engi Ody uses 2 RCS consoles if memory serves.
What you really want is for cruisers to be uber. So why play anything else? In an effort to see if there's any truth to the "cruisers are weak" arguments, and my engi cruiser on a rainbow boat does just fine in its intended role of tanking/dps in STFs. So to anyone saying their cruisers are weak, all I can say is L2P.
Ok... so maybe my cruiser is weak (as oppose to cruisers in general) however this is a recent development (season 6) as literally the day before season 6 the exact same build was doing fair damage still understandably out gunned by the escorts but I was dealing with stuff in a good time and the day after season 6 went live my ship did little damage (not at all noticeable) without a single change to my build.
As it stands an engineer flying a 6 beam cruiser can sit and broadside me and I only need 2 abilities to counter this: Rotate shield frequencies and tactical team, with these in place my shields (all 4) regen faster than they are being damaged...
I have said previously that I am a casual player and I don't care for finding the GAMES perfect cruiser build, I simply want the perfect cruiser build for ME (which I had going into season six) so tell me, should I still "L2P"?
Cruisers right now suck. Right now you can now tank and dps in any escort which you should not be able to do. That means both federation and klingon variants. Right now there is no point to play a cruiser.
This game will never be fixed, nothing will be balanced and nothing will change until the game goes to a decent company. Until then expect things to never change.
They made this game and slapped on the name Star Trek just to make money. The game should be called " Cash Leech Online ".
Ok... so maybe my cruiser is weak (as oppose to cruisers in general) however this is a recent development (season 6) as literally the day before season 6 the exact same build was doing fair damage still understandably out gunned by the escorts but I was dealing with stuff in a good time and the day after season 6 went live my ship did little damage (not at all noticeable) without a single change to my build.
As it stands an engineer flying a 6 beam cruiser can sit and broadside me and I only need 2 abilities to counter this: Rotate shield frequencies and tactical team, with these in place my shields (all 4) regen faster than they are being damaged...
I have said previously that I am a casual player and I don't care for finding the GAMES perfect cruiser build, I simply want the perfect cruiser build for ME (which I had going into season six) so tell me, should I still "L2P"?
In your case I wouldn't say it's a L2P issue really. Just maybe learn what skills, weapons, consoles etc do now as opposed to what your build did prior to season six. Just finding the right build for you that's fun and do what you want it to do. I wouldn't mind going over some stuff with you if you want to send me a PM.
In your case I wouldn't say it's a L2P issue really. Just maybe learn what skills, weapons, consoles etc do now as opposed to what your build did prior to season six. Just finding the right build for you that's fun and do what you want it to do. I wouldn't mind going over some stuff with you if you want to send me a PM.
Well I am perfectly happy to have a chat about how I could potentially improve my build, after-all there are always ways to improve a build it's just a matter of how far one can go before it changes from fun to a chore (for lack of a better word)
Well I am perfectly happy to have a chat about how I could potentially improve my build, after-all there are always ways to improve a build it's just a matter of how far one can go before it changes from fun to a chore (for lack of a better word)
It might not be a much of a chore as it is just maybe moving some stuff around or changing a few things.
........this is a recent development (season 6) as literally the day before season 6 the exact same build was doing fair damage ........
That changes things, that sounds almost like a bug. Its not unheard of for specific ships to suddenly have their stats or function changed when a new season or patch is released, unintentionally of course, but it still happens. The latest one I remember was an unintended hull buff to the Excel R I think?
The latest one I remember was an unintended hull buff to the Excel R I think?
Indeed, I got that one (I miss it now) but I did notice my damage figures were halved when season 6 went live and when the Excel -R buff was 'fixed' I had nothing to show for it
So far I have heard decent arguments all over this thread. And the arguments have gone ALL over.
So let's cover some things I have seen.
First of all, the usual LEARN TO PLAY NOOB has come up. Well here's a news flash. I DID LEARN TO PLAY THE BLOODY GAME. I spent time talking to and testing things JUST SO I COULD LEARN. So get that elitest TRIBBLE OUT of my thread.
Secondly we're mostly all in agreement (except for that elitest punk who is saying L2P L2P L2P) that tanking is almost completely unnecessary. Much of the end-game content is based on doing as much damage as fast as possible. And for the record, that rainbow boy who said he could hold aggro against escorts without threat control? News flash, those escorts were probably imbeciles. I know of tac cruisers that have pure AP builds and maxed all purple mk XII equipment, and guess what, my FPE with an ENGI captain and just phasers with only mk XI green relays pulls aggro off of them either halfway through my second salvo, heck sometimes within the first one. Back on topic, my raptor on my klingon side can easily tank the elite tac cubes in ISE and KASE. Granted I avoid most of their damage by staying out of their torp arc, but still, those beams that ship has still hurt. But my raptor can take the hits, heal it all back, all the while dealing consistent HIGH damage to my target. Why are cruisers even there if I can just tank all day in a non fleet raptor and give little to no craps about it?
Thirdly I would like to point out that escorts have too much utility. Someone posted that they have no utility and that is why cruisers are there. Um... what game are you playing? Ever escort/raptor I have flown has had more than enough utility to not even need a cruiser in most situations. That may not be the case in PvP (that is one of the few places that people are actually HAPPY to see my Engi AC), but in PvE? Come on. I say again, all the tier 4 and up escorts and raptors I have flown have enough utility to take on any enemy and still come out in moderately good condition (unless they get one shotted, seemingly the only thing that cruisers are better at, since they can survive the one shot wonder).
And lastly, it seemingly comes down to escorts being overpowered. They aren't heavily overpowered, but I think they might be a tad too powerful in certain areas. I have stated time and time again that I am perfectly happy with them having insanely high damage. They're escorts. It's what they do. I have also stated I have no issue with their speed and maneuverability and their evasion. Again, it comes with the territory. Most DPS classes in almost any MMO are fast, HEAVY hitting, massively bursty hard to hit speed demons. Here's the catch though, that this game didn't get the memo on. Once you hit them, they are left reeling. As I stated earlier, BoP got it down, you actually manage to get one out of position or in a good salvo, it suffers horribly for it's error. The same cannot be said of the Qin, Patrol Escort, or Advanced Escort. You catch them out of position, you get a few precious seconds to punish them for it. Or do you? They just tank it all. Then heal it all back. Then slap your face off and call it a love-tap (which is believable, I have seen what a decloaking APA3 + APO3 + FOM + TF + TT3 + CRF + EPtW can do, and holy TRIBBLE... that's all I have to say... holy bloody TRIBBLE... the oddy was not happy lol... and quite dead).
So where does that leave us? Let's recount. Cruisers are actually not that hard to learn. I play mine as a tank, since that's what engis do. We tank. I can live with that. I build high survivability and heavy defense. Granted I try to put some bite into it, but for hte most part, I go for refuses to ever die tank. Which works (usually). BUT what is the point of a tank if they aren't needed. In PvE, cruisers are almost useless. They really are. I find that to be disappointing. And as it has been stated, this game is NOT very PvP heavy which is where cruisers can actually DO THEIR FKIN JOBS. As was stated, every escort needs a cruiser buddy, and vice versa. I am fine with that as well. But if cruisers aren't needed because escorts are almost ludicrously superior in every way, then why even have them in the game but to look pretty?
Let's go over some basic stats. I will compare the tactically oriented Cruiser to the engineering oriented Escort.
So far the only difference is a 10% reduction in shield on the escort, ONE rear weapon, and the tac and engi consoles got swapped, in addition to the Engi and Tac BOff layout. But when you have these two go head to head, the Escort wins every time. It is superior in EVERY way, faster, more turn rate, and the ability to get a constant 7 weapons on the target. If the AC is lucky, it will get maybe 4 at any given time (depending on the skill of both pilots). The PE can also constantly heal (courtesy of the two engi slots) and put out HUGE dps (courtesy of the tac slots) and has good utility (Lt Sci). The AC will not be able to get through it's shields. Ever. Especially if they have batteries etc. The AC on the other hand will be able to heal for about 30 seconds before everything is on CD and then after that, the PE has 5-8 seconds to deal damage. And if you time it right, 5-8 seconds of APA3 + APO3 + FOM will usually result in the target being destroyed. So if this is somehow balanced, please, tell me. I am all ears.
Now before you guys go and call me close minded, look at the facts. I have flown both ships. I have killed and died in both ships. And my escort is undeniably better in almost every respect. HOWEVER if you can provide good logical reasoning as to why I am wrong, as I have stated before, I am open to being proven wrong. And I welcome it.
Forgive the wall of text.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
PvE vs PvP.
^ is the most relevant thing I have seen brought up in this thread as it addresses two very different needs/wants.
I would like to pull from some examples of my own starting early on in the release of the game to now.
I was apart of the pre-release community and was invited into a Fleet before launch.
There were some serious PvP players in that Fleet.
Kathy in particular was a beast at it and pratically demanded duels with everyone or else!... lol. She also was a huge min maxer in every sense of the word.
She flew as a Tac Captain in an Escort, recognizing immediately the advantages it would offer both in PvE and PvP.
In PvE she would clear the entire map before I finished my first group in a T4 Galaxy.
In duels, she would fly circles inside of my saucer section, T4 and 5 ships, and use only her aft weapons on my ship till she would decide I had "learned" something or got bored.
Fast forward to today and the F2P and P2W game that we have now.
I fly in a Galaxy X. All of my skills are geared towards being a damage dealing cruiser, with emphasis on increased power levels.
I run at 313/200 in power levels.
Weapons 123/100
Shields 82/50
Engines 56/50
Auxiliary 52/50
I used to run with my group, prior to leaving the game yet again, often.
I always felt like I carried my own weight, but as the we continued to play and their gear and ships changed... I realized that I was the one slowing them down.
Eventually I was the only one that didn't own an Armitage, an Oddy, the D'Kora, the Dominion ship, or a Tholian ship. Each time a new ship showed up it was like a blow to my belief that I was still pulling my own weight.
The Armitage was capable of such immense damage and pressure that I found myself getting the killing blow! That happens when you are the last to arrive to most fights.
The Bug and the D'Kora, well. Again damage and speed were the keys, and the BO layout differences was immediately apparent.
The Tholian ships provided game changing/altering options.
We figured that if we could get just one more player with a Tholian ship and a brain, we could advance to level 6 in the new Kobayashi Maru fleet scenario.
I was eventually asked to purchase an Armitage or even reroll to a Tac Captain so that I could better help the Fleet as my current ship was just not doing enough to enable the fleet to bring me to more "complicated" scenarios such as the CE. It was also plainly evident that as an Escort let alone an Armitage, my donations if you will to the Fleet would be felt much clearer.
In PvP its quite easy.
Skill matters. Its true. But so does gear. You don't march up to a player of equal skill in sub level or poorly chosen gear and honestly expect to win do you?
In a match between players of equal skill and skill selection, gear becomes the trump card. Whomever holds the better gear, or more of it, wins.
How many consoles can a free ship equip? A ship from the C-store or Fleet Variants?
How much HP does a free ship have? A ship from the C-store or Fleet Variants?
Cruisers right now suck. Right now you can now tank and dps in any escort which you should not be able to do. That means both federation and klingon variants. Right now there is no point to play a cruiser.
This game will never be fixed, nothing will be balanced and nothing will change until the game goes to a decent company. Until then expect things to never change.
They made this game and slapped on the name Star Trek just to make money. The game should be called " Cash Leech Online ".
Fleet Tor'kaht Retrofit. A cruiser that can do what an Escort can.
Fleet Tor'kaht Retrofit. A cruiser that can do what an Escort can.
That is all.
No, that is not all. A fleet is required with a requisite shipyard. In addition to 20k fleet creds, and permission from your fleet leaders to use a ship requisition. So no, that is certainly NOT all.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
No, that is not all. A fleet is required with a requisite shipyard. In addition to 20k fleet creds, and permission from your fleet leaders to use a ship requisition. So no, that is certainly NOT all.
Okay, perhaps I was a bit hasty on that, but still, I was responding to the person I quoted when he said that all cruisers suck. I just threw that up as an example against his argument
I can understand your aggravation veraticus but P2W is here to stay, it's the only way the game can afford to live.
The best we can hope for is a cruiser/sci ship performance boost(direct or inderect) that will make them as valid as an escort in PVE/PVP.
The more I think about it the more I think a reduction in the energy drain of beam weapons could be the simple way to start down both roads, even 1 point wouldn't affect any given beam weapon much but when a sci ship or cruiser loads up on 5 beam arrays it will result in a (2% *(beam weapons firing -1)=8% base damage bonus per beam. If you have 8 beam arrays that's 14% base damage per beam.
OFF TOPIC:
Feel free to call bull**** on this if your opinion differs my peers.
If you are taking the time to read the forums, chances are you're an average to above average player or well on your way there.
If you have enough of a knowledge base/interest in this game to meaningfully contribute to a thread concerning game balance and future changes you are probably an above average player with a few months to years of experience.
So telling people that are probably experienced above average players with an interest in the mechanics of this game "learn 2 play" is extremely rude and not well thought out at all. It'll probably just get you labeled as an annoying griefer who's not to be taken seriously at any time.
P.S. I'm not 100% sure about 1 point of energy being 2% base weapon damage. That's what the wiki says but playing with my Ody and Armitage's energy levels I'm seeing something between 2 and 3% depending on where I take my data points and if consoles are equipped. I doubt it's worth worrying about.
*snip snip* People just need to L2P. That's not directed to anyone in particular, but rather to the mass of STO cruiser pilots that never really learn how to fly cruisers... *snip snip*
*snip snip* First of all, the usual LEARN TO PLAY NOOB has come up. Well here's a news flash. I DID LEARN TO PLAY THE BLOODY GAME. I spent time talking to and testing things JUST SO I COULD LEARN. So get that elitest TRIBBLE OUT of my thread. *snip snip*
Feel free to call bull**** on this if your opinion differs my peers.
If you are taking the time to read the forums, chances are you're an average to above average player or well on your way there.
If you have enough of a knowledge base/interest in this game to meaningfully contribute to a thread concerning game balance and future changes you are probably an above average player with a few months to years of experience.
So telling people that are probably experienced above average players with an interest in the mechanics of this game "learn 2 play" is extremely rude and not well thought out at all. It'll probably just get you labeled as an annoying griefer who's not to be taken seriously at any time. *snip snip*
Well. I think the quotations say it all.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
I can understand your aggravation veraticus but P2W is here to stay, it's the only way the game can afford to live.
Don't be a lamb.
P2W is not the only way this game can live.
If P2W was such a successful method, you would be seeing much much more of it. You don't.
Look at LoTRO. I hate it the way they have done it, but it isn't done in a way that screws the player base over if they aren't willing to pay cash.
Look at Guild Wars, both 1 and 2. Their system doesn't have a P2W system at all. Yet they are the most successful Free to Play games ever. And they are generally considered to be well balanced.
Look at League of Legends, my personal favorite example.
You have Influence points which come from playing the game, and Riot Points which come from paying. Both have the capability of unlocking new champions to play as. Riot Points allow a player to unlock new costumes for unlocked champions.
Those are 4 free to play and very well to do games. None of them feature a P2W system.
All 4 likely have a larger player base than STO currently does. Larger in some cases than STO ever was.
That there are so many so willing to buy into this thought process of "There is no other way" or to simply think that this is an ok thing for Cryptic/PWE to do a person and player base... baffles me.
You can create a successful business market using the exact same motivator of greed and base wants to fuel a market that does not include P2W.
Look at how many ask for new costume options, and are willing to pay for them.
Look at how many have purchased retrain tokens.
The option to roll a new race.
More character and DOff slots.
Increase EC limit.
The ship costumes. The pets, the NX registry(of which they are asking for more of).
There are literally dozens of ways to offer items that will generate cash flow through the C-Store in a way that does not rip the player off. Nor create an imbalance between players that play and players that pay.
You can't tell me that this is the only way for them to create a substantial income stream.
That is a complete and utter lie!
You want a way to balance game play and make everyone feel like they are contributing?
Bump the base power levels to 100. This does a few mental things.
First and foremost it lets the player feel like they are running at their best, and not just a few points above 50% capacity.
Place restrictions on the number of systems allowed over 100.
Instead of consoles introduce components.
Each hardpoint can have up to two components equipped.
Components grant the equipped item(weapons, engines, shields etc.) certain properties.
To take the place of the armor that could be equipped via engineering consoles you introduce Hull Plating.
Again you have components or weaves if that better suites your fancy.
You can have up to 3 components or weaves equipped.
These components grant the equipped Hull Plating certain properties or functions.
Create tier and class specific weaponry, engines, deflectors, shields and warp cores.
Why? Because it allows a player to feel catered to, and gives them something to distinguish themselves from other classes and players. It also allows for a more dynamic balance approach. You can now create the above items that are for certain classes or ships giving you the room to play with without affecting the entire game.
Remove the Tactical/Engineer/Science Captain selections.
Let the player create their Captain then spec them out how they desire.
Yes this means a talent tree type system, heck make it look like Skyrims if you want.
This removes the current inherent Captain selection imbalances and allows for a simpler approach to creating balance between abilities without destroying or overpowering something or someone else inadvertently but still leaving you stuck between a rock and a hard place.
You can't tell me that this is the only way for them to create a substantial income stream.
That is a complete and utter lie!
While you're being a little rude there I can see your argument.
I've played GW1, LotRO and a few other F2P games. STO, COH and LotRO were the only ones to pull me back after the first few hours, they're also the only ones to ever see any money from me.
I am honestly stating my opinion, right or wrong, that P2W with new ships and races that are different/better than their predecessors is the only way STO will continue to survive and possibly grow. I don't think it's right or a good long term practice but two years may be all STO has left in it anyway. SWTOR flopping probably helped add to this games life expectancy but without a more in depth understanding of STO's finances I can't say if anything else may work. I know they've been hiring like crazy but that's cause they've been making major money on the Dil exchange and new ships. For them to maintain their growing workforce they have to maintain that income somehow and P2W is the easy way to go.
While you're being a little rude there I can see your argument.
I've played GW1, LotRO and a few other F2P games. STO, COH and LotRO were the only ones to pull me back after the first few hours, they're also the only ones to ever see any money from me.
I am honestly stating my opinion, right or wrong, that P2W with new ships and races that are different/better than their predecessors is the only way STO will continue to survive and possibly grow. I don't think it's right or a good long term practice but two years may be all STO has left in it anyway. SWTOR flopping probably helped add to this games life expectancy but without a more in depth understanding of STO's finances I can't say if anything else may work. I know they've been hiring like crazy but that's cause they've been making major money on the Dil exchange and new ships. For them to maintain their growing workforce they have to maintain that income somehow and P2W is the easy way to go.
Its not meant to be rude. Its more like a wake up call.
We control this game people. Not Crytpic or PWE or whomever they hire as the game lead. We do. They create it based AROUND US. Around what they think we will accept, what they think we will enjoy, what they think we will stick around for.
It is our money that funds this game, that employs all of their workforce.
It was our desire for a game of this nature that lead to its creation in the first place.
This game, in all likely hood would not exist if we didn't exist.
We control this game.
Yet we seem to have fallen into this mentality that not only will we accept that we cannot change anything, but that we will just have to accept that we will never be able to change anything. This isn't a fight the man! argument. Its just facts.
If a business goes out of business, why did they go under?
It wasn't that they offered a good or a bad product. Or that they were a good or bad company. Its because WE didn't care enough to keep them around with our money.
Same goes for this game.
You want to see changes? Then speak in the only method that will be felt. Your wallet.
So if they want to take my milkshake, and toss a massive wad of rotten onion in it and expect even demand that I continue to purchase it because they said so. Not gonna happen. Speaking of milkshakes I think I'm gonna go pay my local Wendy's a visit! :eek::D
Both of you ENOUGH. This thread is not a bmw thread. I don't want it to turn into that kind of thread like all the previous cruiser threads. This thread is simply to state whether or not you agree with the OP, and if so what you agree with, and if not, why you disagree.
The OP is simply stating as the title states. Cruisers have become a joke. After the advent of Season 6, things became a mite harder for cruisers, and their roles have been almost eliminated since we don't need tanks anymore (as I stated in a previous post, my raptor can tank an elite tac cube with almost stupid easy in ISE and KASE) and the only really viable option is escorts now since sci abilities got nerfed.
So I don't mean to sound particularly rude or offensive, but please get back on topic.
Thank you.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Before I start, let me tell you about the time that my Luna (recon sci) PuGged with two cruisers and two escorts, and had to "tank" the tac. cube at the end of ISN because, oddly enough, my Luna was built to do more DPS/Aggro than the other 4 guys. Dying every 40% damage dealt to the cube was but a minor annoyance to me, since the Luna was built as close to a DPS ship that I can get with Sci, based on my understanding of STFs and "DPS or bust"...
The purpose of this little story is to remind everyone that half a brain and a decent build can, and will, beat the "PvE Rainbow Flavor of the day"...
Now, onto the regularly scheduled discussion:
I'll open with an interesting thought: everyone thinks of "balance" as purely 1 on 1. While it's harder to arrange this way, the "rock paper scissors" system of balance works equally as well as "cookie cuttered" 1 on 1s with 3 different classes.
Therefore, if we want to maintain escort > cruiser, then sci > escort and cruiser > sci. This could be quickly done by making it where escorts are highly vulnerable to Sci powers (that a tac can't use better than scis, see thread illustrating tac boosts increasing sci damages to the point that an MVAE = PvP god and related science nerfs), but said same sci powers on a cruiser are but a minor annoyance. Since cruisers naturally out-DPS science ships anyway, desired situation reached.
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Both of you ENOUGH. This thread is not a bmw thread. I don't want it to turn into that kind of thread like all the previous cruiser threads. This thread is simply to state whether or not you agree with the OP, and if so what you agree with, and if not, why you disagree.
The OP is simply stating as the title states. Cruisers have become a joke. After the advent of Season 6, things became a mite harder for cruisers, and their roles have been almost eliminated since we don't need tanks anymore (as I stated in a previous post, my raptor can tank an elite tac cube with almost stupid easy in ISE and KASE) and the only really viable option is escorts now since sci abilities got nerfed.
So I don't mean to sound particularly rude or offensive, but please get back on topic.
Thank you.
You have neither been rude nor offensive but you did ask us to explain the why behind our reasoning.
I am doing just that.
The imbalances in game play that we have spoken/argued/agreed and disagreed about are all symptoms of the problem.
So we can chase down symptoms all day long till the cows die out in the field from the wolves while we tried to mend a gate that has no fence. Or we can address the actual core problem.
I honestly feel that the reason this game has spiraled down and out rather than up and away is that we as players have allowed this to happen. We were willing to pay for a leg up on other players, on-top of paying a monthly fee.
Now we see the more advanced state of what this mentality brings us.
Ships are released on a fairly regular basis. And the community continues to pay for these ships WHILE continuing to ask for a real Klingon faction. True end game content. Balanced and competitive PvP combat. Cruiser, Science and Escort re-balancing, and Tactical, Engineering and Science Balance and tweak passes.
Why buy the cow when the milk is free?
We are asking for legitimate issues to be addressed. Like the one this very thread addresses. Yet the players continue to pay for imbalanced ships. The players continue to play the game. The Klingons continue to play the game despite being on the wrong end of the stick since conception.
You cannot honestly expect them to balance or address anything legitimate, or in our heads, if players continue to allow them to ignore it.
Elitist? Hardly. Frustrated with most players not bothering to learn anything but instead complain. Definitely.
That said, perhaps I was too harsh with the l2p comments but I speak from experience. I was that noob that couldn't get escorts to work in pve and kept dying a lot, in cruisers I was equally bad but a cruiser's greater survivability allowed me to continue without really learning anything, even if I found it boring circling a target.
I was obliviously bad until I saw a skilled escort pilot and realized the problem was not the ships, but me. Learning to fly escorts opened my eyes on how to better squeeze performance out of my ships, now my cruisers live with almost constant uptimes of EPTW 3, debuff targets as a rule, hold agro without dying, AND manage to do respectable DPS. Certainly better than other cruisers and the vast majority of escorts in pugs. My engi alt even flies a rainbow boat just for kicks. I'm not an ultra elite uber pilot but I think my cruiser can bring enough utility on top of tanking and DPS to be worthwhile.
Actually, perhaps we're talking circles around the real problem without realizing it. I have had decent experiences with cruisers because I stick to the more tactical albeit free ones, the Assault cruiser and the free Ody. I suspect a lot of the people saying that cruisers are weak are playing with cruisers that lean toward engineering or science.
Honestly, I think that's almost a trap. Sure they'll be nearly unkillable but you don't need that much to survive in PvE, so they are over designed toward tanking and have trouble holding agro. Why be weighted down with 4 layers of armor when 2 will do just fine? I think in the earlier stages of the game it was assumed and planned for that there would be content that would better use the galaxy's extreme engineering abilities (for example), as we know no such content ever came about, but the ship designs made with it in mind remain. Or maybe these overtanked designs were valid with the old STFs? If that's the case the real issue is that the overtanked ships are not relevant for current or likely future content and need a redesign?
Comments
Fine, I'll call you what I will....."honest."
You've said nothing that most of us haven't thought before and even more of us have heard several times. (edit: this isn't meant to be rude, sorry if it sounds that way)While I personally have no problem with each ship type succeeding at it's role better than the rest and being at a disadvantage outside of that role, the current extremes that design has been taken too for cruisers is ridiculous.
Cruisers aren't as damaging as escorts are tough. See the previous stories for examples.
Also sci ships are not nearly as good at crowd control as escorts are DPS, it requires a little planning to even get sci control powers with maxed out skills to work in PVP or STFs. Gravity well holds nothing on its own, energy drain is highly resisted, scramble sensors doesn't work for long on AI's and can cause a miserable bug in PVP. The only control powers that are really reliable are tractor beams and tractor beam repulsors, both of which are resisted by skills and a few Boff powers in PVP.
Also novathelegend, it was interesting to read your thoughts on the subject and you may very well be right, that solution of yours is probably more work then we'll ever get out of the Dev's at this point.
If everyone can solo something in a decent amount of time (doing fair damage) not only will players have a better capacity to handle stuff and as a result teams have a better capacity to handle things. This will in turn increase the sale of ships in the C-store and thus make more money. At this rate I'm just going to stop playing because playing a damage sponge isn't fun, ripping ships to spacedust in under 20 seconds is equally not fun and just being pretty much useful is... oh wait... not fun either
There IS. Its just that most cruiser pilots don't take the full 9 points (or indeed any) into threat generation. That added to a decent DPS output will mean a cruiser will comfortably hold agro. To test this I put my engi alt into a free Ody and just to give it a little flavor I made into a rainbow boat. My engi alt holds agro, survives and often out DPS's some of the escorts. People just need to L2P. That's not directed to anyone in particular, but rather to the mass of STO cruiser pilots that never really learn how to fly cruisers because the game's leveling process doesn't really teach anyone anything.
I fly an Oddy with 6 points in Threat Control, tried 9 found it didnt make much of a difference (confirmed by some of my fleet buddies) and went back to 6. Yes it helps obtain and hold aggro. But no, it's still not enough. I have a good set up with weapons and equipment and while there are times I can tank, in the true sense of that word, the 'bosses' in STFs if an escort decides to go all out and they usually do (and some also put in points for Threat Control which is a whole other post) there's nothing i can do to prevent me from losing aggro. Maybe escort pilots never really learn how to fly escorts because the game's leveling process doesn't really teach anyone anything.
Ok cheap shot. But what I'm saying is that I agree with some of the above posters, something more that the current Threat Control system is needed if that's the main methodology for cruisers tanking.
What you really want is for cruisers to be uber. So why play anything else? In an effort to see if there's any truth to the "cruisers are weak" arguments, and my engi cruiser on a rainbow boat does just fine in its intended role of tanking/dps in STFs. So to anyone saying their cruisers are weak, all I can say is L2P.
No, even in easy facerolling PvE escorts are tinfoil until a player learns to fly them and build them.
Now your point of an Escort pilot investing into threat generation is valid, but then they're gimping some of their potential damage for the extra defenses it gives, which is similar to how my cruiser gives up some defense for extra DPS ability. Not to mention that as soon as it agroes more than one thing its going to be pressed to survive instead of comfortably DPSing.
All that said I do think cruisers could have a better turn radius, maybe a +1 or +2 would be enough to get over how sluggish they feel. My Engi Ody uses 2 RCS consoles if memory serves.
Ok... so maybe my cruiser is weak (as oppose to cruisers in general) however this is a recent development (season 6) as literally the day before season 6 the exact same build was doing fair damage still understandably out gunned by the escorts but I was dealing with stuff in a good time and the day after season 6 went live my ship did little damage (not at all noticeable) without a single change to my build.
As it stands an engineer flying a 6 beam cruiser can sit and broadside me and I only need 2 abilities to counter this: Rotate shield frequencies and tactical team, with these in place my shields (all 4) regen faster than they are being damaged...
I have said previously that I am a casual player and I don't care for finding the GAMES perfect cruiser build, I simply want the perfect cruiser build for ME (which I had going into season six) so tell me, should I still "L2P"?
This game will never be fixed, nothing will be balanced and nothing will change until the game goes to a decent company. Until then expect things to never change.
They made this game and slapped on the name Star Trek just to make money. The game should be called " Cash Leech Online ".
In your case I wouldn't say it's a L2P issue really. Just maybe learn what skills, weapons, consoles etc do now as opposed to what your build did prior to season six. Just finding the right build for you that's fun and do what you want it to do. I wouldn't mind going over some stuff with you if you want to send me a PM.
Well I am perfectly happy to have a chat about how I could potentially improve my build, after-all there are always ways to improve a build it's just a matter of how far one can go before it changes from fun to a chore (for lack of a better word)
It might not be a much of a chore as it is just maybe moving some stuff around or changing a few things.
Well this may be.
Which begs the question where should I be sending this PM?
That changes things, that sounds almost like a bug. Its not unheard of for specific ships to suddenly have their stats or function changed when a new season or patch is released, unintentionally of course, but it still happens. The latest one I remember was an unintended hull buff to the Excel R I think?
Indeed, I got that one (I miss it now) but I did notice my damage figures were halved when season 6 went live and when the Excel -R buff was 'fixed' I had nothing to show for it
WALL OF TEXT ALERT
So far I have heard decent arguments all over this thread. And the arguments have gone ALL over.
So let's cover some things I have seen.
First of all, the usual LEARN TO PLAY NOOB has come up. Well here's a news flash. I DID LEARN TO PLAY THE BLOODY GAME. I spent time talking to and testing things JUST SO I COULD LEARN. So get that elitest TRIBBLE OUT of my thread.
Secondly we're mostly all in agreement (except for that elitest punk who is saying L2P L2P L2P) that tanking is almost completely unnecessary. Much of the end-game content is based on doing as much damage as fast as possible. And for the record, that rainbow boy who said he could hold aggro against escorts without threat control? News flash, those escorts were probably imbeciles. I know of tac cruisers that have pure AP builds and maxed all purple mk XII equipment, and guess what, my FPE with an ENGI captain and just phasers with only mk XI green relays pulls aggro off of them either halfway through my second salvo, heck sometimes within the first one. Back on topic, my raptor on my klingon side can easily tank the elite tac cubes in ISE and KASE. Granted I avoid most of their damage by staying out of their torp arc, but still, those beams that ship has still hurt. But my raptor can take the hits, heal it all back, all the while dealing consistent HIGH damage to my target. Why are cruisers even there if I can just tank all day in a non fleet raptor and give little to no craps about it?
Thirdly I would like to point out that escorts have too much utility. Someone posted that they have no utility and that is why cruisers are there. Um... what game are you playing? Ever escort/raptor I have flown has had more than enough utility to not even need a cruiser in most situations. That may not be the case in PvP (that is one of the few places that people are actually HAPPY to see my Engi AC), but in PvE? Come on. I say again, all the tier 4 and up escorts and raptors I have flown have enough utility to take on any enemy and still come out in moderately good condition (unless they get one shotted, seemingly the only thing that cruisers are better at, since they can survive the one shot wonder).
And lastly, it seemingly comes down to escorts being overpowered. They aren't heavily overpowered, but I think they might be a tad too powerful in certain areas. I have stated time and time again that I am perfectly happy with them having insanely high damage. They're escorts. It's what they do. I have also stated I have no issue with their speed and maneuverability and their evasion. Again, it comes with the territory. Most DPS classes in almost any MMO are fast, HEAVY hitting, massively bursty hard to hit speed demons. Here's the catch though, that this game didn't get the memo on. Once you hit them, they are left reeling. As I stated earlier, BoP got it down, you actually manage to get one out of position or in a good salvo, it suffers horribly for it's error. The same cannot be said of the Qin, Patrol Escort, or Advanced Escort. You catch them out of position, you get a few precious seconds to punish them for it. Or do you? They just tank it all. Then heal it all back. Then slap your face off and call it a love-tap (which is believable, I have seen what a decloaking APA3 + APO3 + FOM + TF + TT3 + CRF + EPtW can do, and holy TRIBBLE... that's all I have to say... holy bloody TRIBBLE... the oddy was not happy lol... and quite dead).
So where does that leave us? Let's recount. Cruisers are actually not that hard to learn. I play mine as a tank, since that's what engis do. We tank. I can live with that. I build high survivability and heavy defense. Granted I try to put some bite into it, but for hte most part, I go for refuses to ever die tank. Which works (usually). BUT what is the point of a tank if they aren't needed. In PvE, cruisers are almost useless. They really are. I find that to be disappointing. And as it has been stated, this game is NOT very PvP heavy which is where cruisers can actually DO THEIR FKIN JOBS. As was stated, every escort needs a cruiser buddy, and vice versa. I am fine with that as well. But if cruisers aren't needed because escorts are almost ludicrously superior in every way, then why even have them in the game but to look pretty?
Let's go over some basic stats. I will compare the tactically oriented Cruiser to the engineering oriented Escort.
Assault Cruiser:
39,000 Base HP
Shield Mod: 1.0
Crew: 800
Base Turn: 7
Impulse Modifier: 0.15
Weapon Layout: 4/4
Console Setup: 3/4/2
4 Device Slots
BOff: Lt Tac, Ensign Tac, Cmdr Engi, LtC Engi, Lt Sci
Patrol Escort:
31,000 Base HP
Shield Mod: 0.9
Crew: 200
Base Turn: 16
Impulse Modifier: 0.20
Weapon Layout: 4/3
Console Setup: 4/3/2
2 Device Slots
BOff: Cmdr Tac, LtC Tac, Lt Engi, Ensign Engi, Lt Sci
So far the only difference is a 10% reduction in shield on the escort, ONE rear weapon, and the tac and engi consoles got swapped, in addition to the Engi and Tac BOff layout. But when you have these two go head to head, the Escort wins every time. It is superior in EVERY way, faster, more turn rate, and the ability to get a constant 7 weapons on the target. If the AC is lucky, it will get maybe 4 at any given time (depending on the skill of both pilots). The PE can also constantly heal (courtesy of the two engi slots) and put out HUGE dps (courtesy of the tac slots) and has good utility (Lt Sci). The AC will not be able to get through it's shields. Ever. Especially if they have batteries etc. The AC on the other hand will be able to heal for about 30 seconds before everything is on CD and then after that, the PE has 5-8 seconds to deal damage. And if you time it right, 5-8 seconds of APA3 + APO3 + FOM will usually result in the target being destroyed. So if this is somehow balanced, please, tell me. I am all ears.
Now before you guys go and call me close minded, look at the facts. I have flown both ships. I have killed and died in both ships. And my escort is undeniably better in almost every respect. HOWEVER if you can provide good logical reasoning as to why I am wrong, as I have stated before, I am open to being proven wrong. And I welcome it.
Forgive the wall of text.
At the minute there is zero to little point in cruiser's for either pve or pvp and science ships are only useful for organized pvp.
Either reduce escort survivability & utility and/or increase npc damage in pve making cruisers useful.
^ is the most relevant thing I have seen brought up in this thread as it addresses two very different needs/wants.
I would like to pull from some examples of my own starting early on in the release of the game to now.
I was apart of the pre-release community and was invited into a Fleet before launch.
There were some serious PvP players in that Fleet.
Kathy in particular was a beast at it and pratically demanded duels with everyone or else!... lol. She also was a huge min maxer in every sense of the word.
She flew as a Tac Captain in an Escort, recognizing immediately the advantages it would offer both in PvE and PvP.
In PvE she would clear the entire map before I finished my first group in a T4 Galaxy.
In duels, she would fly circles inside of my saucer section, T4 and 5 ships, and use only her aft weapons on my ship till she would decide I had "learned" something or got bored.
Fast forward to today and the F2P and P2W game that we have now.
I fly in a Galaxy X. All of my skills are geared towards being a damage dealing cruiser, with emphasis on increased power levels.
I run at 313/200 in power levels.
Weapons 123/100
Shields 82/50
Engines 56/50
Auxiliary 52/50
I used to run with my group, prior to leaving the game yet again, often.
I always felt like I carried my own weight, but as the we continued to play and their gear and ships changed... I realized that I was the one slowing them down.
Eventually I was the only one that didn't own an Armitage, an Oddy, the D'Kora, the Dominion ship, or a Tholian ship. Each time a new ship showed up it was like a blow to my belief that I was still pulling my own weight.
The Armitage was capable of such immense damage and pressure that I found myself getting the killing blow! That happens when you are the last to arrive to most fights.
The Bug and the D'Kora, well. Again damage and speed were the keys, and the BO layout differences was immediately apparent.
The Tholian ships provided game changing/altering options.
We figured that if we could get just one more player with a Tholian ship and a brain, we could advance to level 6 in the new Kobayashi Maru fleet scenario.
I was eventually asked to purchase an Armitage or even reroll to a Tac Captain so that I could better help the Fleet as my current ship was just not doing enough to enable the fleet to bring me to more "complicated" scenarios such as the CE. It was also plainly evident that as an Escort let alone an Armitage, my donations if you will to the Fleet would be felt much clearer.
In PvP its quite easy.
Skill matters. Its true. But so does gear. You don't march up to a player of equal skill in sub level or poorly chosen gear and honestly expect to win do you?
In a match between players of equal skill and skill selection, gear becomes the trump card. Whomever holds the better gear, or more of it, wins.
How many consoles can a free ship equip? A ship from the C-store or Fleet Variants?
How much HP does a free ship have? A ship from the C-store or Fleet Variants?
P2W
Fleet Tor'kaht Retrofit. A cruiser that can do what an Escort can.
That is all.
No, that is not all. A fleet is required with a requisite shipyard. In addition to 20k fleet creds, and permission from your fleet leaders to use a ship requisition. So no, that is certainly NOT all.
Okay, perhaps I was a bit hasty on that, but still, I was responding to the person I quoted when he said that all cruisers suck. I just threw that up as an example against his argument
The best we can hope for is a cruiser/sci ship performance boost(direct or inderect) that will make them as valid as an escort in PVE/PVP.
The more I think about it the more I think a reduction in the energy drain of beam weapons could be the simple way to start down both roads, even 1 point wouldn't affect any given beam weapon much but when a sci ship or cruiser loads up on 5 beam arrays it will result in a (2% *(beam weapons firing -1)=8% base damage bonus per beam. If you have 8 beam arrays that's 14% base damage per beam.
OFF TOPIC:
Feel free to call bull**** on this if your opinion differs my peers.
If you are taking the time to read the forums, chances are you're an average to above average player or well on your way there.
If you have enough of a knowledge base/interest in this game to meaningfully contribute to a thread concerning game balance and future changes you are probably an above average player with a few months to years of experience.
So telling people that are probably experienced above average players with an interest in the mechanics of this game "learn 2 play" is extremely rude and not well thought out at all. It'll probably just get you labeled as an annoying griefer who's not to be taken seriously at any time.
P.S. I'm not 100% sure about 1 point of energy being 2% base weapon damage. That's what the wiki says but playing with my Ody and Armitage's energy levels I'm seeing something between 2 and 3% depending on where I take my data points and if consoles are equipped. I doubt it's worth worrying about.
Well. I think the quotations say it all.
Don't be a lamb.
P2W is not the only way this game can live.
If P2W was such a successful method, you would be seeing much much more of it. You don't.
Look at LoTRO. I hate it the way they have done it, but it isn't done in a way that screws the player base over if they aren't willing to pay cash.
Look at Guild Wars, both 1 and 2. Their system doesn't have a P2W system at all. Yet they are the most successful Free to Play games ever. And they are generally considered to be well balanced.
Look at League of Legends, my personal favorite example.
You have Influence points which come from playing the game, and Riot Points which come from paying. Both have the capability of unlocking new champions to play as. Riot Points allow a player to unlock new costumes for unlocked champions.
Those are 4 free to play and very well to do games. None of them feature a P2W system.
All 4 likely have a larger player base than STO currently does. Larger in some cases than STO ever was.
That there are so many so willing to buy into this thought process of "There is no other way" or to simply think that this is an ok thing for Cryptic/PWE to do a person and player base... baffles me.
You can create a successful business market using the exact same motivator of greed and base wants to fuel a market that does not include P2W.
Look at how many ask for new costume options, and are willing to pay for them.
Look at how many have purchased retrain tokens.
The option to roll a new race.
More character and DOff slots.
Increase EC limit.
The ship costumes. The pets, the NX registry(of which they are asking for more of).
There are literally dozens of ways to offer items that will generate cash flow through the C-Store in a way that does not rip the player off. Nor create an imbalance between players that play and players that pay.
You can't tell me that this is the only way for them to create a substantial income stream.
That is a complete and utter lie!
Bump the base power levels to 100. This does a few mental things.
First and foremost it lets the player feel like they are running at their best, and not just a few points above 50% capacity.
Place restrictions on the number of systems allowed over 100.
Instead of consoles introduce components.
Each hardpoint can have up to two components equipped.
Components grant the equipped item(weapons, engines, shields etc.) certain properties.
To take the place of the armor that could be equipped via engineering consoles you introduce Hull Plating.
Again you have components or weaves if that better suites your fancy.
You can have up to 3 components or weaves equipped.
These components grant the equipped Hull Plating certain properties or functions.
Create tier and class specific weaponry, engines, deflectors, shields and warp cores.
Why? Because it allows a player to feel catered to, and gives them something to distinguish themselves from other classes and players. It also allows for a more dynamic balance approach. You can now create the above items that are for certain classes or ships giving you the room to play with without affecting the entire game.
Remove the Tactical/Engineer/Science Captain selections.
Let the player create their Captain then spec them out how they desire.
Yes this means a talent tree type system, heck make it look like Skyrims if you want.
This removes the current inherent Captain selection imbalances and allows for a simpler approach to creating balance between abilities without destroying or overpowering something or someone else inadvertently but still leaving you stuck between a rock and a hard place.
While you're being a little rude there I can see your argument.
I've played GW1, LotRO and a few other F2P games. STO, COH and LotRO were the only ones to pull me back after the first few hours, they're also the only ones to ever see any money from me.
I am honestly stating my opinion, right or wrong, that P2W with new ships and races that are different/better than their predecessors is the only way STO will continue to survive and possibly grow. I don't think it's right or a good long term practice but two years may be all STO has left in it anyway. SWTOR flopping probably helped add to this games life expectancy but without a more in depth understanding of STO's finances I can't say if anything else may work. I know they've been hiring like crazy but that's cause they've been making major money on the Dil exchange and new ships. For them to maintain their growing workforce they have to maintain that income somehow and P2W is the easy way to go.
Its not meant to be rude. Its more like a wake up call.
We control this game people. Not Crytpic or PWE or whomever they hire as the game lead. We do. They create it based AROUND US. Around what they think we will accept, what they think we will enjoy, what they think we will stick around for.
It is our money that funds this game, that employs all of their workforce.
It was our desire for a game of this nature that lead to its creation in the first place.
This game, in all likely hood would not exist if we didn't exist.
We control this game.
Yet we seem to have fallen into this mentality that not only will we accept that we cannot change anything, but that we will just have to accept that we will never be able to change anything. This isn't a fight the man! argument. Its just facts.
If a business goes out of business, why did they go under?
It wasn't that they offered a good or a bad product. Or that they were a good or bad company. Its because WE didn't care enough to keep them around with our money.
Same goes for this game.
You want to see changes? Then speak in the only method that will be felt. Your wallet.
So if they want to take my milkshake, and toss a massive wad of rotten onion in it and expect even demand that I continue to purchase it because they said so. Not gonna happen. Speaking of milkshakes I think I'm gonna go pay my local Wendy's a visit! :eek::D
The OP is simply stating as the title states. Cruisers have become a joke. After the advent of Season 6, things became a mite harder for cruisers, and their roles have been almost eliminated since we don't need tanks anymore (as I stated in a previous post, my raptor can tank an elite tac cube with almost stupid easy in ISE and KASE) and the only really viable option is escorts now since sci abilities got nerfed.
So I don't mean to sound particularly rude or offensive, but please get back on topic.
Thank you.
The purpose of this little story is to remind everyone that half a brain and a decent build can, and will, beat the "PvE Rainbow Flavor of the day"...
Now, onto the regularly scheduled discussion:
I'll open with an interesting thought: everyone thinks of "balance" as purely 1 on 1. While it's harder to arrange this way, the "rock paper scissors" system of balance works equally as well as "cookie cuttered" 1 on 1s with 3 different classes.
Therefore, if we want to maintain escort > cruiser, then sci > escort and cruiser > sci. This could be quickly done by making it where escorts are highly vulnerable to Sci powers (that a tac can't use better than scis, see thread illustrating tac boosts increasing sci damages to the point that an MVAE = PvP god and related science nerfs), but said same sci powers on a cruiser are but a minor annoyance. Since cruisers naturally out-DPS science ships anyway, desired situation reached.
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
You have neither been rude nor offensive but you did ask us to explain the why behind our reasoning.
I am doing just that.
The imbalances in game play that we have spoken/argued/agreed and disagreed about are all symptoms of the problem.
So we can chase down symptoms all day long till the cows die out in the field from the wolves while we tried to mend a gate that has no fence. Or we can address the actual core problem.
I honestly feel that the reason this game has spiraled down and out rather than up and away is that we as players have allowed this to happen. We were willing to pay for a leg up on other players, on-top of paying a monthly fee.
Now we see the more advanced state of what this mentality brings us.
Ships are released on a fairly regular basis. And the community continues to pay for these ships WHILE continuing to ask for a real Klingon faction. True end game content. Balanced and competitive PvP combat. Cruiser, Science and Escort re-balancing, and Tactical, Engineering and Science Balance and tweak passes.
Why buy the cow when the milk is free?
We are asking for legitimate issues to be addressed. Like the one this very thread addresses. Yet the players continue to pay for imbalanced ships. The players continue to play the game. The Klingons continue to play the game despite being on the wrong end of the stick since conception.
You cannot honestly expect them to balance or address anything legitimate, or in our heads, if players continue to allow them to ignore it.
That said, perhaps I was too harsh with the l2p comments but I speak from experience. I was that noob that couldn't get escorts to work in pve and kept dying a lot, in cruisers I was equally bad but a cruiser's greater survivability allowed me to continue without really learning anything, even if I found it boring circling a target.
I was obliviously bad until I saw a skilled escort pilot and realized the problem was not the ships, but me. Learning to fly escorts opened my eyes on how to better squeeze performance out of my ships, now my cruisers live with almost constant uptimes of EPTW 3, debuff targets as a rule, hold agro without dying, AND manage to do respectable DPS. Certainly better than other cruisers and the vast majority of escorts in pugs. My engi alt even flies a rainbow boat just for kicks. I'm not an ultra elite uber pilot but I think my cruiser can bring enough utility on top of tanking and DPS to be worthwhile.
Actually, perhaps we're talking circles around the real problem without realizing it. I have had decent experiences with cruisers because I stick to the more tactical albeit free ones, the Assault cruiser and the free Ody. I suspect a lot of the people saying that cruisers are weak are playing with cruisers that lean toward engineering or science.
Honestly, I think that's almost a trap. Sure they'll be nearly unkillable but you don't need that much to survive in PvE, so they are over designed toward tanking and have trouble holding agro. Why be weighted down with 4 layers of armor when 2 will do just fine? I think in the earlier stages of the game it was assumed and planned for that there would be content that would better use the galaxy's extreme engineering abilities (for example), as we know no such content ever came about, but the ship designs made with it in mind remain. Or maybe these overtanked designs were valid with the old STFs? If that's the case the real issue is that the overtanked ships are not relevant for current or likely future content and need a redesign?