In STO cruisers are intended to Heal escorts or science ships, period.
First, most of the time escorts and science ships don't need any healing, because they have enough survivability to get along very well. (which i like since i never saw Star Trek ships being "healed" by other ships, to such a extend as in STO.)
Second, unlike science ships which have acess to a much greater variety of powers, (starfleet) cruisers are stuck in the role of being flying hospitals.
If anything they should be more on par with escorts, just being slower but more survivable.
BTW: Why don't you just read some of the previous pages instead of coming up with the same stuff that has already been discussed a hunded times already?
I read the other pages.
Cruisers are still working like intendend! They are Thanks, Healers and sustained DPS.
If you don't like it, role an escort.
And the fact that StarTrek ships are healed by other ships... well they aren't healed, you just transfer energy so that the intern reparations mechanism (replicators!!!) can work faster. We never saw it in the series but it is a clever usage of trek lore.
And please, stop using your lacking knowledge of canon for the justification of your worthless ideas.
Its not like ideas have not been given that could help the Cruiser feel more fun in STO.
New weapons, New Tac BOff abilities for beams, a turnrate/enertia buff, etc.
Yet none have been embraced by those thinking thier Cruiser is suppossed to be a big slow escort or the Engineer should be as competant at Damage Dealing as the Tactical class is ingame.
If those ideas are not good enough, the Engineer/Cruiser fanbase is screwed becuase that leaves them fixing thier game so direct applied High DPS is not the only thing that completes Optionals or overcomes the Endgame enemies.
Becuase frankly, changing the Engineer to be a secondary Tac class is not an option.
Becuase frankly, changing the Cruiser (again) to make a Tactical BOff heavy set-up is not an option unless we also see Tactical Heavy BOffed Science Vessels becuase honestly, the 1000 day Vet reward vessel is a Engineer heavy escort set-up perfect for what the Engineer/Cruiser crowd wants out of a ship.
I seen the 1000 day vet reward as exactly that as well. I'm already experimenting with a Chim/beam boat. Haven't quite got it down as yet, as well as the excel, but it "has possibilties".
I seen the 1000 day vet reward as exactly that as well. I'm already experimenting with a Chim/beam boat. Haven't quite got it down as yet, as well as the excel, but it "has possibilties".
Aux to battery designs seem to be working well on it.
Don'tdrunkI'mshoot really has found a good build with this vessel.
I was thinking of trying a similiar thing with my tac;
The best way to sum up a Cruiser is a knight in shining armor with a paper sword made by a pre-schooler. No threat. Cruisers right now need help and not the expected role to perform in both pvp and pve.
I've been hardcore modding games for over 17 years and I can tell you I could balance this game myself VERY easy by re-designing each and every single solitary mechanic to everything from the bottom up to where it's balanced but most importantly there is " heart " to it as well. This " heart " is what is lost in today's games. Re-hashed, re-used same TRIBBLE, sell it for a quick buck. ANYTHING to make that dollar. These people at Cryptic have no clue at all about balance.
What happened to this game? I mean really take a moment to stop and think about it. WHAT happened to this game? It just seems gaming companies have lost so much spirit trying to design something " RIGHT " that it's lost art and the new way is to just milk people out of money now.
I'm hoping by 2020 gaming companies will be better like in the 1990's where games were GOOD, then they are now because since 2004 or some a bit after most games have been absolute TRIBBLE due to the same problems.
Currently we are in a gaming recession where most games are TRIBBLE and nothing but a VERY few shine. STO certainly is not one of them.
You can sugar coat TRIBBLE all you want but it's still simply " TRIBBLE "
This is the second time i am happy to completely agree with you.
I like your new FFE (?) BOFF ability, one question though, why not make it a Engineering BOFF power?
Since Cruisers have a high emphasis on Engineering BOFF slots, i think it would be suitable to make this a enginering power. On the other hand most cruisers tac slots are too low anyway, and it would be good for Engineering Captains so their skills would benefit this power instead of Tac skills.
I hope my english is understandable, since most of the time i am unable to find the right words in my native language already.
Since the idea of Fire for Effect is a Tactical ability, why can't it stay there? As a BOff ability from ensign to LTC it is still availible to Cruisers sooner than CRF is to escorts.
Another good idea was an ability (whose name and creator suddenly escapes me) that was basically a short Accuracy buff ability one could use to increase Acc.
This could be a Science or Engineering ability.
I wouldn't mind there being some more Science and Engineering BOff abilities being created to give both classes a slight DPS boost, though I am not sure what is needed.
This is the current "Cruisers suck"-whine thread, right?
I'm getting a bit lost, too many of them ...
Anyway, 'had a very interesting experience in ISE, and I thought I'd share:
A Cruiser, piloted by an Engineer, and a Fed at that ... out-dps'ed everyone.
My Fed-Tac's TRIBBLE'scort (Mk Xi purple weapons, blue consoles, not even a Borg console yet) clocked in at 5.7k dps overall. Another Escort at 6k.
... and this Engineer-piloted Cruiser ... at 7k. Peak dps at 20k.
Yes, it was a P2W-ship, a Galor.
Yes, APB was used.
But this shows what's possible.
Do you guys still want a cruiser/eng buff?
P.S.: yes, I do have the log. Nice 8:26min ISE run :P
This is the current "Cruisers suck"-whine thread, right?
I'm getting a bit lost, too many of them ...
Anyway, 'had a very interesting experience in ISE, and I thought I'd share:
A Cruiser, piloted by an Engineer, and a Fed at that ... out-dps'ed everyone.
My Fed-Tac's TRIBBLE'scort (Mk Xi purple weapons, blue consoles, not even a Borg console yet) clocked in at 5.7k dps overall. Another Escort at 6k.
... and this Engineer-piloted Cruiser ... at 7k. Peak dps at 20k.
Yes, it was a P2W-ship, a Galor.
Yes, APB was used.
But this shows what's possible.
Do you guys still want a cruiser/eng buff?
P.S.: yes, I do have the log. Nice 8:26min ISE run :P
I do want a buff... my floors need it. But, what weapons was he using in the Galor, Beams or Cannons (and if cannons, what type?).
Personally I am satisfied with my Cruisers. My Engineer flys a Cruiser, if I want to fly an Escort, I have my Tac. My DPS isn't bad, isn't great... but not bad.
In my D'Kora, I usually get 5500-6100 dps; in my Regent or Excelsior, I run from 5000-5500. In my Sovereign or Fleet Heavy Cruiser Retrofit 4500-5000.
I use dual Tac Team I, Torpdeo High Yield II, and Attack Pattern Beta II. Better DPS results for me that way.
I chain Emergency Power to Weapons, Emergency Power to Shields, and Direct Energy Modulation.
Doffs, I use three Conn Officers to reduce the recharge Attack Pattern Beta; it is up most of the time.
I don't PVP, so this works fine for me in PVE.
"I'm not big on telepaths myself. I'm not big on guns either. But if everyone else has them, I want to make sure I can get my hands on the biggest one I can."
This is the current "Cruisers suck"-whine thread, right?
I'm getting a bit lost, too many of them ...
Anyway, 'had a very interesting experience in ISE, and I thought I'd share:
A Cruiser, piloted by an Engineer, and a Fed at that ... out-dps'ed everyone.
My Fed-Tac's TRIBBLE'scort (Mk Xi purple weapons, blue consoles, not even a Borg console yet) clocked in at 5.7k dps overall. Another Escort at 6k.
... and this Engineer-piloted Cruiser ... at 7k. Peak dps at 20k.
Yes, it was a P2W-ship, a Galor.
Yes, APB was used.
But this shows what's possible.
Do you guys still want a cruiser/eng buff?
P.S.: yes, I do have the log. Nice 8:26min ISE run :P
Just a thought. I have posted 3 or 4 times in this thread alone, and have posted up numbers on on how strong a cruiser can actually be. But I have been told my numbers are fake. I am sure if I actually bothered to get a DPS tracker, I could probably indeed show that Cruisers can hit very high dps if flown right. And not just galors, but other ships that gain high passive bonuses, like the one I fly, the tac oddy. I have never seen another engi cruiser hit numbers as high as my tac oddy can with saucer separation active.
Hence why I commented that they aren't broken, but their main purpose is not needed in the current meta of insanely high dps.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
I do want a buff... my floors need it. But, what weapons was he using in the Galor, Beams or Cannons (and if cannons, what type?).
Personally I am satisfied with my Cruisers. My Engineer flys a Cruiser, if I want to fly an Escort, I have my Tac. My DPS isn't bad, isn't great... but not bad.
In my D'Kora, I usually get 5500-6100 dps; in my Regent or Excelsior, I run from 5000-5500. In my Sovereign or Fleet Heavy Cruiser Retrofit 4500-5000.
I use dual Tac Team I, Torpdeo High Yield II, and Attack Pattern Beta II. Better DPS results for me that way.
I chain Emergency Power to Weapons, Emergency Power to Shields, and Direct Energy Modulation.
Doffs, I use three Conn Officers to reduce the recharge Attack Pattern Beta; it is up most of the time.
I don't PVP, so this works fine for me in PVE.
He was using 8xSpiral Wave Disruptor, and using a DEM build.
'Had the pleasure to fly another couple eSTF with him now, this time with his Tac/Bug - that one clocked in at pretty constant low 8k'ish, which is pretty damn good for an escort.
Cruisers scale with weapon power. Massively. Not only does it add more damage to the weapons you have, it also allows you to use more weapons effectively.
4.5k to 5k in a +5 baseline ship are already quite good.
Of course, a free T5 Escort won't get far beyond the 6k mark, either.
Tac Ody with Ops console can pretty much equal any Escort in dps.
The difference between low-end Cruisers and the high-end P2W ones is quite drastic.
Just a thought. I have posted 3 or 4 times in this thread alone, and have posted up numbers on on how strong a cruiser can actually be. But I have been told my numbers are fake. I am sure if I actually bothered to get a DPS tracker, I could probably indeed show that Cruisers can hit very high dps if flown right. And not just galors, but other ships that gain high passive bonuses, like the one I fly, the tac oddy. I have never seen another engi cruiser hit numbers as high as my tac oddy can with saucer separation active.
Hence why I commented that they aren't broken, but their main purpose is not needed in the current meta of insanely high dps.
Well, yes, it's always easier to complain or to cry "fake!" than it is to admit failure. Unfortunately, this also prevents people from actually learning, and thus ... well, I guess this won't be the last of the "Cruisers suck"-threads.
I mean, the attitude is even deeply rooted in the PvP community, and these guys should normally know better what their ships can do. Should.
But Cryptic really needs find a way to stop or at least slow the power creep, and find a way to close the gap between the good players and the bad, and to actually cut down on the effects of P2W, or it's getting impossible to balance any content, impossible to make PvP a meaningful and fun part of the game, impossible to attract new players.
And that's probably not going to help this game prosper.
The complaints have a point - it's just not what the people who complain think it is.
But Cryptic really needs find a way to stop or at least slow the power creep, and find a way to close the gap between the good players and the bad, and to actually cut down on the effects of P2W, or it's getting impossible to balance any content, impossible to make PvP a meaningful and fun part of the game, impossible to attract new players.
And that's precisely why you'll never see it happen, as without the incentive of having much better stats, there'd be no longer any reason to buy the expensive ships any more.
The greater than 125 weapons power thing tends to come and go though. Has it ever been confirmed as a 'bug' or a 'feature' out of curiosity?
Feature. I have done testing with my ships and found that I get a buffer when firing if I know my power levels are above 125. Example from my tac oddy:
I put it on balanced just to see what it's passive gain was (I don't have any points in WCE, so there was no added bonus). I was in normal mode, and my weapons power was at 81/50. I did the saucer sep, and my weapons power went to 91/50. I then went into offensive mode, naturally got 125/100, then fire my weapons at a target. I was able to fire 4 of my beam arrays before any any noticeable reduction in power took place, and then with EPtW2 active, I was able to fire all 6 and stay above 90 power. Which kept my damage pretty high. Now if I only had 125 power available, my power would have drained to 70 with all 6 arrays firing. As is, it only dropped to 90, which means I got a +20 buffer from somewhere.
BUT, there have been times when my power drops to 80 when firing, and other times when my power doesn't go below 100 (that's when my tac oddy really shines). So tbh, I am not entirely sure how that overpowering works. But I do know it exists. And I do know for a fact and after dozens if not hundreds of tests and stfs that my weapon damage stays the same until my weapon power actually starts to drop. In other worse, my weapons don't get weaker until my power begins to drain. And my power never drains until at least 4 of my arrays are firing, sometimes more.
It's one of those weird things. Also sometimes EPtW keeps it above the cap (as in all weapons firing and I never go below 125), and sometimes it doesn't seem to have any actual effect on my power levels save maybe boosting them by 10 (even though it is listed as giving me 32.9 extra weapons power). So I honestly don't know in it's case.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Feature. I have done testing with my ships and found that I get a buffer when firing if I know my power levels are above 125. Example from my tac oddy:
I put it on balanced just to see what it's passive gain was (I don't have any points in WCE, so there was no added bonus). I was in normal mode, and my weapons power was at 81/50. I did the saucer sep, and my weapons power went to 91/50. I then went into offensive mode, naturally got 125/100, then fire my weapons at a target. I was able to fire 4 of my beam arrays before any any noticeable reduction in power took place, and then with EPtW2 active, I was able to fire all 6 and stay above 90 power. Which kept my damage pretty high. Now if I only had 125 power available, my power would have drained to 70 with all 6 arrays firing. As is, it only dropped to 90, which means I got a +20 buffer from somewhere.
BUT, there have been times when my power drops to 80 when firing, and other times when my power doesn't go below 100 (that's when my tac oddy really shines). So tbh, I am not entirely sure how that overpowering works. But I do know it exists. And I do know for a fact and after dozens if not hundreds of tests and stfs that my weapon damage stays the same until my weapon power actually starts to drop. In other worse, my weapons don't get weaker until my power begins to drain. And my power never drains until at least 4 of my arrays are firing, sometimes more.
It's one of those weird things. Also sometimes EPtW keeps it above the cap (as in all weapons firing and I never go below 125), and sometimes it doesn't seem to have any actual effect on my power levels save maybe boosting them by 10 (even though it is listed as giving me 32.9 extra weapons power). So I honestly don't know in it's case.
Oh I know that it does exist currently at this exact moment in time. Just like it did in the past, and then for awhile it did not.
But is it 'intended' or a 'bug' that has returned that is my question and I highly doubt there be a dev post stating one way or another.
If it's a bug and they fix it then they really will HAVE to do something for cruisers, the only thing that keeps my cruisers 6 beams above 500 damage per hit is that buffer, if they take that away then I will be rebuilding again as a pure healboat (shudders at the thought)
Hence why I commented that they aren't broken, but their main purpose is not needed in the current meta of insanely high dps.
AND that is the problem of STO. Tanks and healers aren't needed. You need a lot of damage in a short periode aka the speciality of Tac's in Escorts cannons (or the few cruisers which can mount cannons). So Cruisers with an engie aren't needed. Which makes the STF's even more stall -.-
1) THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH CRUISERS OR ENGINEERS AT THIS POINT IN TIME (other than a slight damage weakness, but not nearly to the extent I used to believe, albeit could probably still use some tweaking/buffing). THEY ARE WORKING AS INTENDED (which is healers and damage support).
2) THERE IS NO CURRENT REQUIREMENT FOR ENGINEER/CRUISER COMBINATIONS AT THIS POINT IN TIME. We were rendered unnecessary by the switch to f2p and this sudden obsession with maximum possible damage output in order to beat the timer on ESTFs and other endgame content (excluding PvP, one of the few arenas that Engi/Cruiser combos still seem to be useful).
Now if you can somehow get those points into your skull and comprehend and understand them, then we can finally move on to point 3. However if you still feel like arguing, re-read points 1 and 2 very carefully until you get sick of it and are too frustrated, or until you come to the realization that what I say is not only logical, but true.
3) Until the game is changed (not the ships mind you), and the insane stupidity with maximized DPS being a requirement for the end-game content to be efficient and successful, there is no real way that the engi/cruiser combo can be brought back competitively without breaking the game in favor of said combo.
In other words, can't give it more bite without making them infringe on tacs job, and you don't want them to become even more support role based (which would then infringe on the sci's job), which kind of leaves them stuck where they are.
Your post is just an perfect description of the current situation :-)
1) THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH CRUISERS OR ENGINEERS AT THIS POINT IN TIME (other than a slight damage weakness, but not nearly to the extent I used to believe, albeit could probably still use some tweaking/buffing). THEY ARE WORKING AS INTENDED (which is healers and damage support).
2) THERE IS NO CURRENT REQUIREMENT FOR ENGINEER/CRUISER COMBINATIONS AT THIS POINT IN TIME. We were rendered unnecessary by the switch to f2p and this sudden obsession with maximum possible damage output in order to beat the timer on ESTFs and other endgame content (excluding PvP, one of the few arenas that Engi/Cruiser combos still seem to be useful).
Now if you can somehow get those points into your skull and comprehend and understand them, then we can finally move on to point 3. However if you still feel like arguing, re-read points 1 and 2 very carefully until you get sick of it and are too frustrated, or until you come to the realization that what I say is not only logical, but true.
3) Until the game is changed (not the ships mind you), and the insane stupidity with maximized DPS being a requirement for the end-game content to be efficient and successful, there is no real way that the engi/cruiser combo can be brought back competitively without breaking the game in favor of said combo.
In other words, can't give it more bite without making them infringe on tacs job, and you don't want them to become even more support role based (which would then infringe on the sci's job), which kind of leaves them stuck where they are.
Very good description, just a few notes:
1) Yes, there is something wrong with Eng/cruisers. That slight dmg weakness is actually a problem. NI, has been design for a different weapon energy drain mechanic, it was not adjusted after a change to the mechanic in S1.2 ( i think), that's where its weakness is coming from. (that and the borken F@W mechanic, that hurts eng/cruisers the most)
With the advent of Team batteries, and NI doffs, the engy class lost two of its captain abilities. This has nothing to do with uninformed PvE ranting, its time that Engies are compensated for making two of their "unique" powers worthless.
2) Meh, with the recluse PvP has no longer a need for an eng healer. Also note that when you say there is a possible role, you should mention that this goes for 1 eng/healer per 5 man team. bring a second eng/cruiser, and you more or less cause your team to fail. So much for taking joy out of playing a support class.
3) the dmg bias was already present in the FA pre-F2P, when Gozer set out of for the FA and STF revamp, it was frequently brought up on the forums, that this burst bias needed to go. Gozer and his minions went a different path, and ignored that part of the feedback. We are still waiting for content that explicitly plays to the eng/cruisers strenght (Newsflash: NWS has no use for engs either) so far 85 plays to Tac's strength, the remaining 15% to sci's cc ability. We would not need new mechanics to make this happen, its simply lazy uninspired design choices, that got and keep us here.
The simple fix, is indeed not to up Eng burst potential, but to make its (hull-) healing more precious.
The recent Borg set nerfs may helpt this come about. Now those hull heals to Escorts will be much needed.
Yes, the nerf have my full rate untested approval, cut the remaining procs efficiency in half, and it would still be op.
Without the borg procs wearing out an escort might actually work again , but i won't hold my breath. Ones the Devs notice that their escorts took a hit the change will be reverted. .....as usual i believe it when i see it (on holodeck)
So escort healing is overpowered unless cruisers can one-shot them? Do I have that right?
Where's the fun in that?
No, escorts need a certain amount of healing in order to deal out their damage but it should be limited, what I'm saying is that Escort healing is too good when they can tank tac cubes in ESTFs thereby putting Cruisers out of a job those escorts can do the damage AND take the damage whereas (in most cases) if a cruiser can do the former it's a tac at the helm and it therefore can't do the latter, if it can do the former then it's an engineer at the helm and (in most cases) it can't do the former. The thing that facilitates escorts doing this is the Borg set, if the borg set were to fall victim to a nerf it would deal a large blow to escort tanking, giving cruisers 2 jobs: Tanking and healing and put an end to those invincible cruisers PvPers have been complaining about thus everyone (who doesn't fly tac/scorts) is happy with escort tanking, am I wrong?
No, escorts need a certain amount of healing in order to deal out their damage but it should be limited, what I'm saying is that Escort healing is too good when they can tank tac cubes in ESTFs thereby putting Cruisers out of a job those escorts can do the damage AND take the damage whereas (in most cases) if a cruiser can do the former it's a tac at the helm and it therefore can't do the latter, if it can do the former then it's an engineer at the helm and (in most cases) it can't do the former. The thing that facilitates escorts doing this is the Borg set, if the borg set were to fall victim to a nerf it would deal a large blow to escort tanking, giving cruisers 2 jobs: Tanking and healing and put an end to those invincible cruisers PvPers have been complaining about thus everyone (who doesn't fly tac/scorts) is happy with escort tanking, am I wrong?
Yes and no. I have an engi in a cruiser and I can dish out some rather painful amounts of damage and still tank like a beast. Granted I don't have APA3 and FOMM, but instead I get NI and EPS buff. Not as good of course, but still a pretty not terrible amount of damage increase. I also have a tac toon that runs in a bc. It's KDF I know, so not a bullet-proof comparison by a long shot, but I can still tank pretty well with it, and deal out good damage. I can't do either as well as I could in class ships (damage compared to my raptor, and tankage compared to my AC/Oddy), but I can still do it. And a tac in a fed cruiser is just hell. I mean HELL. Tac Oddys with tac captains can be among the most dangerous cruisers in PvE. They get the APA3 and FOMM from the tac, but still have that Cmdr Engi and access to a uni LtCmdr BOff slot (which most if not all will stick a tac officer there, hell I do it on my engi) which gives them good healing/tanking ability (oddy's naturally high health and shield mod + the engi powers) while still dealing lots of damage (tac captain abilities + LtCmdr tac and Lt Tac abilities).
But you are correct, nerf the borg set, and a ton of survivability goes out the window... universally. EVERYTHING will get hurt by that, cruisers, escorts, sci, the kitchen sink, everything. Maybe that's a good thing. Maybe not.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Whenever people whine about cruisers I'm at the point where I seriously don't even listen any more.
I had a game last night where I took the ol' Tac Excelsior out for a spin, and someone who'd evidently put a hell of a lot of work into their boat was making my life hell and actually forcing me to play properly... and he was in an Eng Excel. He matched my damage by the end of the game. That's not only embarrassing but damn inspiring. I dread to think what he would've been like in a Galor or with the old bugged FAW.
If you haven't put the work in then you don't get the right to talk about balance. If it's obvious that you've tried your best to make your ship or your character or whatever do exactly what you want it to, and what it needs to, and you're still coming up marginally short, then maybe we should listen. Until then, nope.wav.
Since the idea of Fire for Effect is a Tactical ability, why can't it stay there? As a BOff ability from ensign to LTC it is still availible to Cruisers sooner than CRF is to escorts.
Another good idea was an ability (whose name and creator suddenly escapes me) that was basically a short Accuracy buff ability one could use to increase Acc.
This could be a Science or Engineering ability.
I wouldn't mind there being some more Science and Engineering BOff abilities being created to give both classes a slight DPS boost, though I am not sure what is needed.
For Science i just had an idea.
Why not give them a Power which inceases the chance for the weapons secondary effect about let's say 2 - 10 % or something?
For Engineers they could get the short Accuracy Buff you mentioned or they could get a short Weapons Energy Buff.
They could even get a "engineered" version of Attack Pattern Beta, there are so many possibilities if the devs where just willing to listen.
As for the FFE being a tac ability, in my opinion most cruisers Tac Stations are too weak, giving them another important power wouldn't help much IMO. But thats just my opinion. I would be deeply grateful if we could get that power.
I hope my english is understandable, since most of the time i find it difficult to find the right words in my native language.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Comments
I read the other pages.
Cruisers are still working like intendend! They are Thanks, Healers and sustained DPS.
If you don't like it, role an escort.
And the fact that StarTrek ships are healed by other ships... well they aren't healed, you just transfer energy so that the intern reparations mechanism (replicators!!!) can work faster. We never saw it in the series but it is a clever usage of trek lore.
And please, stop using your lacking knowledge of canon for the justification of your worthless ideas.
CRUISERS AREN'T ESCORTS.
Or free for he who waits.......though not really, as like in sex, your paying somehow.
R.I.P
I seen the 1000 day vet reward as exactly that as well. I'm already experimenting with a Chim/beam boat. Haven't quite got it down as yet, as well as the excel, but it "has possibilties".
Aux to battery designs seem to be working well on it.
Don'tdrunkI'mshoot really has found a good build with this vessel.
I was thinking of trying a similiar thing with my tac;
TT1 B02 ApO1 CRF3
ET1 ATB1 EPTS3
EPTA1 ATB1
ST1 HE1
HY1
or
TT1 APD1 HY3 CRF3
EPTS1 ATB1 DEM2
EPTS1 ATB1
TSS1 HE1
TB1
R.I.P
I've been hardcore modding games for over 17 years and I can tell you I could balance this game myself VERY easy by re-designing each and every single solitary mechanic to everything from the bottom up to where it's balanced but most importantly there is " heart " to it as well. This " heart " is what is lost in today's games. Re-hashed, re-used same TRIBBLE, sell it for a quick buck. ANYTHING to make that dollar. These people at Cryptic have no clue at all about balance.
What happened to this game? I mean really take a moment to stop and think about it. WHAT happened to this game? It just seems gaming companies have lost so much spirit trying to design something " RIGHT " that it's lost art and the new way is to just milk people out of money now.
I'm hoping by 2020 gaming companies will be better like in the 1990's where games were GOOD, then they are now because since 2004 or some a bit after most games have been absolute TRIBBLE due to the same problems.
Currently we are in a gaming recession where most games are TRIBBLE and nothing but a VERY few shine. STO certainly is not one of them.
You can sugar coat TRIBBLE all you want but it's still simply " TRIBBLE "
Since the idea of Fire for Effect is a Tactical ability, why can't it stay there? As a BOff ability from ensign to LTC it is still availible to Cruisers sooner than CRF is to escorts.
Another good idea was an ability (whose name and creator suddenly escapes me) that was basically a short Accuracy buff ability one could use to increase Acc.
This could be a Science or Engineering ability.
I wouldn't mind there being some more Science and Engineering BOff abilities being created to give both classes a slight DPS boost, though I am not sure what is needed.
R.I.P
I'm getting a bit lost, too many of them ...
Anyway, 'had a very interesting experience in ISE, and I thought I'd share:
A Cruiser, piloted by an Engineer, and a Fed at that ... out-dps'ed everyone.
My Fed-Tac's TRIBBLE'scort (Mk Xi purple weapons, blue consoles, not even a Borg console yet) clocked in at 5.7k dps overall. Another Escort at 6k.
... and this Engineer-piloted Cruiser ... at 7k. Peak dps at 20k.
Yes, it was a P2W-ship, a Galor.
Yes, APB was used.
But this shows what's possible.
Do you guys still want a cruiser/eng buff?
P.S.: yes, I do have the log. Nice 8:26min ISE run :P
I do want a buff... my floors need it. But, what weapons was he using in the Galor, Beams or Cannons (and if cannons, what type?).
Personally I am satisfied with my Cruisers. My Engineer flys a Cruiser, if I want to fly an Escort, I have my Tac. My DPS isn't bad, isn't great... but not bad.
In my D'Kora, I usually get 5500-6100 dps; in my Regent or Excelsior, I run from 5000-5500. In my Sovereign or Fleet Heavy Cruiser Retrofit 4500-5000.
I use dual Tac Team I, Torpdeo High Yield II, and Attack Pattern Beta II. Better DPS results for me that way.
I chain Emergency Power to Weapons, Emergency Power to Shields, and Direct Energy Modulation.
Doffs, I use three Conn Officers to reduce the recharge Attack Pattern Beta; it is up most of the time.
I don't PVP, so this works fine for me in PVE.
Just a thought. I have posted 3 or 4 times in this thread alone, and have posted up numbers on on how strong a cruiser can actually be. But I have been told my numbers are fake. I am sure if I actually bothered to get a DPS tracker, I could probably indeed show that Cruisers can hit very high dps if flown right. And not just galors, but other ships that gain high passive bonuses, like the one I fly, the tac oddy. I have never seen another engi cruiser hit numbers as high as my tac oddy can with saucer separation active.
Hence why I commented that they aren't broken, but their main purpose is not needed in the current meta of insanely high dps.
You could do the same with the sovvy class minus the Aquarius escort mod.
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
He was using 8xSpiral Wave Disruptor, and using a DEM build.
'Had the pleasure to fly another couple eSTF with him now, this time with his Tac/Bug - that one clocked in at pretty constant low 8k'ish, which is pretty damn good for an escort.
Cruisers scale with weapon power. Massively. Not only does it add more damage to the weapons you have, it also allows you to use more weapons effectively.
4.5k to 5k in a +5 baseline ship are already quite good.
Of course, a free T5 Escort won't get far beyond the 6k mark, either.
Tac Ody with Ops console can pretty much equal any Escort in dps.
The difference between low-end Cruisers and the high-end P2W ones is quite drastic.
Well, yes, it's always easier to complain or to cry "fake!" than it is to admit failure. Unfortunately, this also prevents people from actually learning, and thus ... well, I guess this won't be the last of the "Cruisers suck"-threads.
I mean, the attitude is even deeply rooted in the PvP community, and these guys should normally know better what their ships can do. Should.
But Cryptic really needs find a way to stop or at least slow the power creep, and find a way to close the gap between the good players and the bad, and to actually cut down on the effects of P2W, or it's getting impossible to balance any content, impossible to make PvP a meaningful and fun part of the game, impossible to attract new players.
And that's probably not going to help this game prosper.
The complaints have a point - it's just not what the people who complain think it is.
And that's precisely why you'll never see it happen, as without the incentive of having much better stats, there'd be no longer any reason to buy the expensive ships any more.
P.S. 8x spiral disruptors? Interesting idea.
Feature. I have done testing with my ships and found that I get a buffer when firing if I know my power levels are above 125. Example from my tac oddy:
I put it on balanced just to see what it's passive gain was (I don't have any points in WCE, so there was no added bonus). I was in normal mode, and my weapons power was at 81/50. I did the saucer sep, and my weapons power went to 91/50. I then went into offensive mode, naturally got 125/100, then fire my weapons at a target. I was able to fire 4 of my beam arrays before any any noticeable reduction in power took place, and then with EPtW2 active, I was able to fire all 6 and stay above 90 power. Which kept my damage pretty high. Now if I only had 125 power available, my power would have drained to 70 with all 6 arrays firing. As is, it only dropped to 90, which means I got a +20 buffer from somewhere.
BUT, there have been times when my power drops to 80 when firing, and other times when my power doesn't go below 100 (that's when my tac oddy really shines). So tbh, I am not entirely sure how that overpowering works. But I do know it exists. And I do know for a fact and after dozens if not hundreds of tests and stfs that my weapon damage stays the same until my weapon power actually starts to drop. In other worse, my weapons don't get weaker until my power begins to drain. And my power never drains until at least 4 of my arrays are firing, sometimes more.
It's one of those weird things. Also sometimes EPtW keeps it above the cap (as in all weapons firing and I never go below 125), and sometimes it doesn't seem to have any actual effect on my power levels save maybe boosting them by 10 (even though it is listed as giving me 32.9 extra weapons power). So I honestly don't know in it's case.
Oh I know that it does exist currently at this exact moment in time. Just like it did in the past, and then for awhile it did not.
But is it 'intended' or a 'bug' that has returned that is my question and I highly doubt there be a dev post stating one way or another.
If it's a bug and they fix it then they really will HAVE to do something for cruisers, the only thing that keeps my cruisers 6 beams above 500 damage per hit is that buffer, if they take that away then I will be rebuilding again as a pure healboat (shudders at the thought)
AND that is the problem of STO. Tanks and healers aren't needed. You need a lot of damage in a short periode aka the speciality of Tac's in Escorts cannons (or the few cruisers which can mount cannons). So Cruisers with an engie aren't needed. Which makes the STF's even more stall -.-
Your post is just an perfect description of the current situation :-)
They are beautiful ships and represent the best that STO offers. (Im a hardcore tac!)
1) A boost to their weapons +15? nay +20
2) Beam fire at will to become an intrinsic power
3) Buffs to their support and healing abilites, which at the moment, seem a bit meh
Before anyone screams, yells, rants and generally gets worked up, please, remember this...
Cruisers still have...
A) A poor rate of turn
C) Limited tac and sci ship & boff slots (yes i know about LtComm slots on a few)
D) Inertia issues...
So, keeping these limitations in mind, a boost to their DPS is not much to ask for is it? really? I mean really?:rolleyes:
==============================
Redneck Noobs Killer
"...skip lunch and buy zen...":P
Very good description, just a few notes:
1) Yes, there is something wrong with Eng/cruisers. That slight dmg weakness is actually a problem. NI, has been design for a different weapon energy drain mechanic, it was not adjusted after a change to the mechanic in S1.2 ( i think), that's where its weakness is coming from. (that and the borken F@W mechanic, that hurts eng/cruisers the most)
With the advent of Team batteries, and NI doffs, the engy class lost two of its captain abilities. This has nothing to do with uninformed PvE ranting, its time that Engies are compensated for making two of their "unique" powers worthless.
2) Meh, with the recluse PvP has no longer a need for an eng healer. Also note that when you say there is a possible role, you should mention that this goes for 1 eng/healer per 5 man team. bring a second eng/cruiser, and you more or less cause your team to fail. So much for taking joy out of playing a support class.
3) the dmg bias was already present in the FA pre-F2P, when Gozer set out of for the FA and STF revamp, it was frequently brought up on the forums, that this burst bias needed to go. Gozer and his minions went a different path, and ignored that part of the feedback. We are still waiting for content that explicitly plays to the eng/cruisers strenght (Newsflash: NWS has no use for engs either) so far 85 plays to Tac's strength, the remaining 15% to sci's cc ability. We would not need new mechanics to make this happen, its simply lazy uninspired design choices, that got and keep us here.
The simple fix, is indeed not to up Eng burst potential, but to make its (hull-) healing more precious.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
The recent Borg set nerfs may helpt this come about. Now those hull heals to Escorts will be much needed.
R.I.P
Yes, the nerf have my full rate untested approval, cut the remaining procs efficiency in half, and it would still be op.
Without the borg procs wearing out an escort might actually work again
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
:rolleyes:
Have what correct?
- That you didn't read everything?
- Comprehend what is being discussed?
:cool:So.. which is it?
If you're just being troll bait.. go someplace else.:P
Where's the fun in that?
No, escorts need a certain amount of healing in order to deal out their damage but it should be limited, what I'm saying is that Escort healing is too good when they can tank tac cubes in ESTFs thereby putting Cruisers out of a job those escorts can do the damage AND take the damage whereas (in most cases) if a cruiser can do the former it's a tac at the helm and it therefore can't do the latter, if it can do the former then it's an engineer at the helm and (in most cases) it can't do the former. The thing that facilitates escorts doing this is the Borg set, if the borg set were to fall victim to a nerf it would deal a large blow to escort tanking, giving cruisers 2 jobs: Tanking and healing and put an end to those invincible cruisers PvPers have been complaining about thus everyone (who doesn't fly tac/scorts) is happy with escort tanking, am I wrong?
Yes and no. I have an engi in a cruiser and I can dish out some rather painful amounts of damage and still tank like a beast. Granted I don't have APA3 and FOMM, but instead I get NI and EPS buff. Not as good of course, but still a pretty not terrible amount of damage increase. I also have a tac toon that runs in a bc. It's KDF I know, so not a bullet-proof comparison by a long shot, but I can still tank pretty well with it, and deal out good damage. I can't do either as well as I could in class ships (damage compared to my raptor, and tankage compared to my AC/Oddy), but I can still do it. And a tac in a fed cruiser is just hell. I mean HELL. Tac Oddys with tac captains can be among the most dangerous cruisers in PvE. They get the APA3 and FOMM from the tac, but still have that Cmdr Engi and access to a uni LtCmdr BOff slot (which most if not all will stick a tac officer there, hell I do it on my engi) which gives them good healing/tanking ability (oddy's naturally high health and shield mod + the engi powers) while still dealing lots of damage (tac captain abilities + LtCmdr tac and Lt Tac abilities).
But you are correct, nerf the borg set, and a ton of survivability goes out the window... universally. EVERYTHING will get hurt by that, cruisers, escorts, sci, the kitchen sink, everything. Maybe that's a good thing. Maybe not.
I had a game last night where I took the ol' Tac Excelsior out for a spin, and someone who'd evidently put a hell of a lot of work into their boat was making my life hell and actually forcing me to play properly... and he was in an Eng Excel. He matched my damage by the end of the game. That's not only embarrassing but damn inspiring. I dread to think what he would've been like in a Galor or with the old bugged FAW.
If you haven't put the work in then you don't get the right to talk about balance. If it's obvious that you've tried your best to make your ship or your character or whatever do exactly what you want it to, and what it needs to, and you're still coming up marginally short, then maybe we should listen. Until then, nope.wav.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Why not give them a Power which inceases the chance for the weapons secondary effect about let's say 2 - 10 % or something?
For Engineers they could get the short Accuracy Buff you mentioned or they could get a short Weapons Energy Buff.
They could even get a "engineered" version of Attack Pattern Beta, there are so many possibilities if the devs where just willing to listen.
As for the FFE being a tac ability, in my opinion most cruisers Tac Stations are too weak, giving them another important power wouldn't help much IMO. But thats just my opinion.
I would be deeply grateful if we could get that power.
I hope my english is understandable, since most of the time i find it difficult to find the right words in my native language.