Exactly. High end Special Task Force missions, No Win Scenario missions and other endgame special content require a player who is ready to be seriuos about playing.
They are not missions for the casual strolling in to a PuG group without thinking about what needs to be done.
90% of the game is PvE that can be played in almost any build. The last 10% requires focus to achieve victory and can not be casually entered an expect to perform as well as those who prepare for it.
Now if a prepared team enters the STfs or such and still finds that only a high level of DPS from one class is effect to win, then the issue lies in the way the mission is designed versus how poor of a damage dealer the Cruiser is ingame.
Why? becuase many have taken thier Cruisers into the endgame content and done fine.
True...
...and I still cant look at your avatar and not crack up...
Oh god... just... no. NO. #TRIBBLE%& NO!!!
-.-
Engineering powers are fine. They do exactly what you would expect from an ENGINEER. The only major weakness that engineering powers have is the fact that so many of those powers are on shared cooldown. Cruisers are not meant to be offensive. That's why their tac consoles and BOffs are so limited in comparison to their engineering BOff slots and consoles. I'll say this once. ENGINEERS ARE NOT MEANT TO BE PRIMARY DAMAGE DEALERS. IF YOU WANT THAT JOB ROLL A TACTICAL CAPTAIN.
Please... come on, you have to differ between making a power for engineering CARREER and engineering BOFFs.
So if crusiers are not meant to be offensive, what do you want to do with them?
No one needs to be healed anymore (thankfully), at least not that much to turn your ship into a flying hospital. I don't care if this is a MMO or not, i want to fly the Star Trek ships i like and how they are supposed to be (not what cryptic want's them to be).
Who was talking about making Crusiers into the PRIME damage dealers?!?
Even Science ships can be more active, but cruisers just sit somewhere and watch escorts do the job. If you like that, then i am happy for you. But you should see that not everyone wants to accept that.
-.-
Passive. Buffing your ship is not passive. I'd say it's quite active. Actively healing your shields, your hull, and actively buffing your weapons, I would say that's not passive at all. And you're a bloody engineer. Your job is not to deal damage, so I would disagree with you wholeheartedly here. Your abilities are not "much too passive", they're perfectly fine for what you were designed to do.
STOP TRYING TO MAKE ENGINEERS INTO TACTICAL CAPTAINS. It's starting to annoy me.
Giving engineering BOFFs some more active powers doesn't have anything to do with YOUR characters CAREER. It would help all Careers (Engineering/tactical/science) to create more active builds. I use mostly my Tactical Captains/Cruisers and i would appreciate some Engineering power that would enhance more directly/effectvely than just DEM or EptW.
Of course you can Buff yourself but this does not have an direct effect on the battlefield or on your enemy.
IF YOU WANT TO KEEP FLYING A MOITIONLESS HOSPITAL WITH NO FIREPOWER THEN YOU CAN, NOONE WOULD KEEP YOU FROM IT. But i prefer to have more options. (sorry but caps seem to be infective, lol)
I can only speak for myself but i don't care about flying Escorts, i don't even like them very much. I want to Fly a classical Star Trek ship but i don't want to play nanny for other ships.
I hope my english is understandable, since most of the time i find it difficult to find the right words in my native language.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
The realisation I have about some of the comments raised here recently is that STO is a bit saturated with cruisers when it comes to battles/fleet actions/STF's, and as the law of probability and proportions goes, we have more underskilled and lacking cruiser builds than other classes in STO. Pilots flying Odyssey rainbow beam boats or cruisers piloted by individuals who have no idea of their ship's capabilities and weaknesses do nothing but give cruisers a bad name. This creates an image that cruisers are poor and defunct vessels generally. While they could use a bit of bump in power generally speaking, a well skilled captain with a good build and excellent weapons can hang with the best of them.
It pains me to see some people state things like a "Gal-X" is a vanity ship and the like, it's just ignorance. Without succuming to too many generalisations I often find these comments to be made by tacs in escorts, most of which tend to die rather quickly.
All I will say is that my own Gal-X flown as an engy is throwing out 1500k-2000k dmg per hit on unshielded targets and can rip through shields rather nicely. There's a great feeling when you take off 30,000k with a spinal lance hit too. This really isn't too far behind most tacs dps in game. All said and done I can solo the cubes in STF and survive 95% of the time when engaged with a tactical cube in elite infected without breaking a sweat.
Know your ship, tweak it, improve it, be open to suggestions and read about abilities. More importantly have fun doing these.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Lag Watch:
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The realisation I have about some of the comments raised here recently is that STO is a bit saturated with cruisers when it comes to battles/fleet actions/STF's, and as the law of probability and proportions goes, we have more underskilled and lacking cruiser builds than other classes in STO. Pilots flying Odyssey rainbow beam boats or cruisers piloted by individuals who have no idea of their ship's capabilities and weaknesses do nothing but give cruisers a bad name. This creates an image that cruisers are poor and defunct vessels generally. While they could use a bit of bump in power generally speaking, a well skilled captain with a good build and excellent weapons can hang with the best of them.
It pains me to see some people state things like a "Gal-X" is a vanity ship and the like, it's just ignorance. Without succuming to too many generalisations I often find these comments to be made by tacs in escorts, most of which tend to die rather quickly.
All I will say is that my own Gal-X flown as an engy is throwing out 1500k-2000k dmg per hit on unshielded targets and can rip through shields rather nicely. There's a great feeling when you take off 30,000k with a spinal lance hit too. This really isn't too far behind most tacs dps in game. All said and done I can solo the cubes in STF and survive 95% of the time when engaged with a tactical cube in elite infected without breaking a sweat.
Know your ship, tweak it, improve it, be open to suggestions and read about abilities. More importantly have fun doing these.
I do not believe that most of the people here are comparing crusiers with sub-builds to other classes/profs/ships with great builds. Most of the comparison is being made via great builds v great builds on the other sides and then mostly from a PVP standpoint altho PVE is now getting to be purely dependant upon mass DPS as well. I fly a tac in an excel, and have for quite some time and I can go into the 20 man or a 5 man fleet point action and keep up there also. PVE is basicly easy mode compared to PVP gameplay and if your build is even "decent" in PVP it will certainly excel in PVE.
I've flew a cruis since closed beta, mostly with a tac in it. And I've seen nothing in the way of development by Cryptic except for crusier, tanking/healing/Sci powers NERFs while the P2W factory at Cyptic has been put into overdrive, mostly for DPS due to the fact that DPS sells and then 99% from lockboxes. And DPS means escorts in STO.
If you actualy believe your crusier is "the cat's meow", Q up against a good pre-made and see if you can actualy hold to that conslusion. Or you could Q up in your GalX with an eng pilot in an STF with 4 others just like you, or get into a 20 man that's heavy on eng/cruis and see how you fare. You have basicly 2 chances, slim and none, as STFs are on a timer (DPS required) and the 20 man you have to "kill" the ships doing the damage before they "kill" what your trying to save (again DPS required). Just living thru the encounter is not getting optionals or fleet points.
The absolute best PUGs I've played, in STFs or otherwise, is a 5 man escort group. Almost guaranteed optional, even if some1 blows a transformer early even, and with 4 eng console escorts that can "tank" basicly better than my excel (it doesn't need the power console) and throws almost twice the DPS with the "miss" NERF to beams, and ev1 lives thru it just as well.
Played a 5 escort PUG last night in fact with my Sci in a escort carrier where 1 guy started apoligising fast that he blew a transformer early and the rest of us went to work throwing mass DPS and still got the optional as a matter of fact. Could not have done that with 3-4 crusiers in the mix.
Anyway, as for the first part of this quote the Patrol Escort is no squishier than the new Chimera Destroyer. Sure it has a little less hull but not enough to make a difference in elite PVE.
Any escort that can take 2x EPTS I and 1x Aux2SIF I while still taking HE I and TSS II is not squishy and as most escorts can do that they really need to look into escort survivability on a larger scale.
The Fleet Patrol is so sturdy because it has a Universal Ensign station (as opposed to, say, the Fleet Defiant).
Escorts, in general, can survive so well because of being able to run 2x EPtS1 + 2x TT1.
Proposed changes:
Attack Pattern Delta II and III decreased in efficiency. APD I should cap out (fully skilled) at +20 dmg resistance, II at +25 and III at +30.
Attack Pattern Omega I, II and III remove the defence buff. Remove the speed increase. Damage resistance buff scaled back as above to +10, +15 and +20 respectivly. Remove immunity to Disable. Grant immunity to teleport to all ranks. Apply reduce weapon drain effect for duration (25%, 38%, 50% respectively).
It's proposals like this, I reckon, why the devs hardly read the forums: people tend to have a very narrow-minded scope of things, and will go way overboard in their hatred on one particular aspect of the game they don't like (in this case: the Escort allegedly being OP). There's already talk of the devs going to nerf TT. So, now you want to take away a hoard of defenses that benefit everyone, just to get at the Escort? In my native tongue we have a saying: "Don't throw away the child with the bathwater."
There are straight-up murderous cruisers out there that'd put the majority of pub escorts to shame. I've been killed by said cruisers more times than I'd like to count (I can't win a war of attrition, especially if they're packing heat).
It's not the ship, it's not your bridge officers and it's not your character class. It's you.
I agree and have died to them as well, many times.
The Fleet Patrol is so sturdy because it has a Universal Ensign station (as opposed to, say, the Fleet Defiant).
It's proposals like this, I reckon, why the devs hardly read the forums: people tend to have a very narrow-minded scope of things, and will go way overboard in their hatred on one particular aspect of the game they don't like (in this case: the Escort allegedly being OP). There's already talk of the devs going to nerf TT. So, now you want to take away a hoard of defenses that benefit everyone, just to get at the Escort? In my native tongue we have a saying: "Don't throw away the child with the bathwater."
Firstly I wasnt talking bout the fleet patrol escort. Rather the basic T5 version. Think its called the Blockade Escort now. Besides, whats the point of a universal ensign slot when you are going to put a engineer in it 95% of the time? It might as well be an engineering slot. This can be said for the majority of the universal slots in the game.
My changes to the attack pattern skills were not intended to nerf escorts, rather to nerf the defensive power of tactical skills. In this game it is unarguable that DPS is king. This needs to change and the best way to do that is to make a real drawback to going all out dps. Survivability SHOULD suffer if you are an escort. As it is you get to use the basic levels of the core tanking BO skills every science / cruiser ship uses AND you get insane defensive buffs on your core DPS skills. This too needs to change and bar removing all engineering BO slots from escorts you have to remove the defensive parts of "tactical" skills.
As for the changes effecting everyone? Only escorts really use high ranks of the attack patterns. The lower rank changes should not really harm cruisers / science ships with lt commander / commander tac slots.
I'm not interesting in nerfing escorts for the sake of nerfing them. I fly one myself. My goal is the same it has always been with suggestions I make; to improve the game for everyone. In this case that is by improving the distinction between the character classes which will help promote teamwork in groups. (with these changes escorts would be squishier I know and once people realise that teams would heal the escorts in their groups more.
Firstly I wasnt talking bout the fleet patrol escort. Rather the basic T5 version. Think its called the Blockade Escort now. Besides, whats the point of a universal ensign slot when you are going to put a engineer in it 95% of the time? It might as well be an engineering slot. This can be said for the majority of the universal slots in the game.
My changes to the attack pattern skills were not intended to nerf escorts, rather to nerf the defensive power of tactical skills. In this game it is unarguable that DPS is king. This needs to change and the best way to do that is to make a real drawback to going all out dps. Survivability SHOULD suffer if you are an escort. As it is you get to use the basic levels of the core tanking BO skills every science / cruiser ship uses AND you get insane defensive buffs on your core DPS skills. This too needs to change and bar removing all engineering BO slots from escorts you have to remove the defensive parts of "tactical" skills.
As for the changes effecting everyone? Only escorts really use high ranks of the attack patterns. The lower rank changes should not really harm cruisers / science ships with lt commander / commander tac slots.
I'm not interesting in nerfing escorts for the sake of nerfing them. I fly one myself. My goal is the same it has always been with suggestions I make; to improve the game for everyone. In this case that is by improving the distinction between the character classes which will help promote teamwork in groups. (with these changes escorts would be squishier I know and once people realise that teams would heal the escorts in their groups more.
I'm all for equality with cruisers, however, there's been way TOO many NERFs in the short history of this game now. Another one will do the same thing as all the others. All NERFs do is cause /ragequit, and that's it. In 8 years of SWG (and for awhile it was called NERF WARS) all I ever seen in the way of balance via NERFs was goodbye mails. This game doesn't need or require any more of that. There's plenty of reasoning to not play STO with P2W, lack of content, etc to go out and look for another.
If crusiers are supposed to be the perverbial "tank", then make them that way again. While they have added new weapons, new high DPS ships, a boat-load of P2W massive DPS consoles, etc, tanking and sci powers have been hit with the NERF bat. In order for an eng in a crusier to do it's job, throwing low constant DPS, a bit of crowd control, and "tank" they have to "live". It's a requirement. IMHO, that's what's needed here, an ADD to crusiers (maybe in hull resists et al) to keep up with the DPS. Not taking away something from another class.
Firstly I wasnt talking bout the fleet patrol escort. Rather the basic T5 version.
My bad; misread.
Besides, whats the point of a universal ensign slot when you are going to put a engineer in it 95% of the time? It might as well be an engineering slot. This can be said for the majority of the universal slots in the game.
The point of having a universal ensign slot, on the Fleet Patrol Escort, is that it is NOT a fixed tact slot, like on the Fleet Defiant (thus giving it a rather useless third tact ensign slot). But yeah, you'll almost always want that universal ensign slot for EPtS1.
My changes to the attack pattern skills were not intended to nerf escorts, rather to nerf the defensive power of tactical skills. In this game it is unarguable that DPS is king. This needs to change and the best way to do that is to make a real drawback to going all out dps. Survivability SHOULD suffer if you are an escort. As it is you get to use the basic levels of the core tanking BO skills every science / cruiser ship uses AND you get insane defensive buffs on your core DPS skills. This too needs to change and bar removing all engineering BO slots from escorts you have to remove the defensive parts of "tactical" skills.
From removing shield distribution from TT to removing all defensive abilities from attack patterns, I think it's getting a little too much. That way, everyone will greatly suffer from the nerf, except engineers in their huge-hull cruisers. Good within the confines of this thread, of course, LOL; but probably not so good for the game.
Besides, I still believe the true problem with Escorts -- or the game at large, rather -- is not that they can defend themselves, per se, but that every ship, from very small to very big, can use the same weaponry, with the same DPS, and the same accuracy. I tend to bring it up often, but in EVE they solved this much more elegantly: big vessels, like battleships, can dish out tons of DPS, with bigger weapons, but they are less accurate against smaller targets. And, vice versa, small ships, like frigates, use smaller weapons, thus doing less DSP, but are highly accurate against smaller things. Because STO is basically a dummied-down version of EVE, we're de facto now seeing the adverse affects of having Escorts being able to fit the same weapons as cruisers, as 'smaller' no longer matters. To picture it: a human carrying a bazooka is fine; a mosquite packing a same-sized one is ludicrously disproportionate.
Something needs to change, though; I think pretty much everyone agrees on that.
Trimen Ranger
Admiral Federation Tactical Corps
>Star Fleet Elite Force< Click if you are ready to boldy go where no one has gone before. Seek not the final frontier if you fear the unknown. -Admiral Trimen Ranger
Besides, I still believe the true problem with Escorts -- or the game at large, rather -- is not that they can defend themselves, per se, but that every ship, from very small to very big, can use the same weaponry, with the same DPS, and the same accuracy. I tend to bring it up often, but in EVE they solved this much more elegantly: big vessels, like battleships, can dish out tons of DPS, with bigger weapons, but they are less accurate against smaller targets. And, vice versa, small ships, like frigates, use smaller weapons, thus doing less DSP, but are highly accurate against smaller things. Because STO is basically a dummied-down version of EVE, we're de facto now seeing the adverse affects of having Escorts being able to fit the same weapons as cruisers, as 'smaller' no longer matters. To picture it: a human carrying a bazooka is fine; a mosquite packing a same-sized one is ludicrously disproportionate.
Something needs to change, though; I think pretty much everyone agrees on that.
^ This. So. Bloody. True.
This is actually one thing that BSGO has over this game. The weapon sizes. Take for example, the Strikes (fighters) have little machine guns that are really really accurate, but low damage, and low range. The Escorts (mid sized ships) have middle size guns that are medium accuracy, and hit with medium strength, with medium range. Basically the middle of everything. Then you have Lines (ships of the line, big-#$% mofos) that have massive cannons that hit like a fkin freight train, but aren't accurate against much other than other lines and large targets, and have the longest effective and maximum range.
It came up in a few other cruiser threads that weapons could to be altered depending on which class of ship is using them, and have either weapons more class restricted (like DCs and DHCs already are, but this time move that restriction on to BAs, DBBs, etc), OR alter the weapons effectiveness depending on which class is using them (example, BAs, famous for huge constant power consumption take a 30% dip in damage on a smaller ship since they are designed to generate huge power bursts, but cannot do it on a constant basis, whereas on a big-@#$ cruiser that can sustain the power needed for the weapon keep said weapon at full power, and cannons, with their smaller constant power requirements stay at 100%, but on bigger ships because of the need for more spike power generation (CRF), take a 30% dip because the larger ships can maintain larger amounts of power for longer, but can't spike their energy as a result, or SOMETHING along those lines).
And if you do either, you can then alter the damage output of the weapons to make it a little more fair/balanced. However that would involve a huge overhaul of the system, which means that at MINIMUM the servers would be down for days. Minimum. Possibly weeks depending. And then the uproar would come because people would have to change. And we all know that everyone hates change. Well, not everyone. But it would have a huge impact on gameplay and builds, and stirring up that kind of frenzy might not be in the best interest of the game. But hey, sometimes something big has to be done to get peeps out of the rut no?
There's a saying that I would like to bring to light here.
"If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten. If you want something to change however, you have to do something different."
And my add-on: "And different may not mean better or easier, but at least something will change."
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
And my add-on: "And different may not mean better or easier, but at least something will change."
As you yourself say, change is not necessarily better.... But! who here really trusts Cryptic to go poking into the game's best and arguably most popular aspect? Do you really think there is even a 50/50 chance that Cryptic will create a better space combat game than what they have now? They somehow manage to include old bugs into new patch releases that were already fixed! I'd rather they stayed away from the best aspect of the game until they can at least figure out that the gindfest that was S6 and S7 is shaping up to be are not the best way of enticing me to open my wallet.
However that would involve a huge overhaul of the system, which means that at MINIMUM the servers would be down for days. Minimum. Possibly weeks depending.
Not necessarily, Their "Seasons" are likely larger updates and those are s till only a few hours, I would suggest if it is going to take days to do everything regarding any weapon changes then update it one ship class at a time and iron out any bugs as you update each class so it is do-able without taking too long about a single update
I've become less convinced it's the ships, I finally got persuaded to change my power settings and it made a lot of difference according to a DPS meter I put out about 3.5k DPS in an ESTF so I'm not going to say eng/cruisers shouldn't get a boost (because of "Casual Kirks") but it's not all the ships and it's not all the beams and it's not all the engineer prof so yeah... go and play with your builds and see what happens
I've become less convinced it's the ships, I finally got persuaded to change my power settings and it made a lot of difference according to a DPS meter I put out about 3.5k DPS in an ESTF so I'm not going to say eng/cruisers shouldn't get a boost (because of "Casual Kirks") but it's not all the ships and it's not all the beams and it's not all the engineer prof so yeah... go and play with your builds and see what happens
About bloody time. Have you not been reading my posts on my damage output? Sheesh!! =P
You just need to maximize you build for damage output. Granted it means you can't do play builds (by play build I mean a build that you just derp around with for fun). Another thing is, serious players are the only ones that can get decent DPS out of cruisers.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
About bloody time. Have you not been reading my posts on my damage output? Sheesh!! =P
You just need to maximize you build for damage output. Granted it means you can't do play builds (by play build I mean a build that you just derp around with for fun). Another thing is, serious players are the only ones that can get decent DPS out of cruisers.
TBH, the same is true for Escorts.
It's just a bit more intuitiv, since Escorts are advertised as dps-ships, so most people get that part right. With Escorts, you need to do your homework to build them to survive. Still, there's quite a few people who can't even get more dps out of them than a shuttle, as they run with setups close to what they find when they get them - a horrible mix of beams, cannons, torps and mines, with no synergy or sense.
Cruisers are advertised as tank-ships - so people often make the mistake to turn them into indestructible but useless bricks - and then end up not being able to kill anything.
Just as people who fly Sci-ships can be tempted to ignore everything except their Sci powers ... and end up with fragile ships that can't harm a fly.
Once you learn though which skills are needed for core defense (TT, EPtS, TSS, HE, Aux2SIF, maybe an RSP) and which can be used for offense (weapon type skills and attack patterns for Tac, EPtW and DEM for Eng) and build around that, with no more than a few select abilities for utility - then you unlock the true potential of your ships, with basic sustainability, solid dps, and still enough potential to fill any role suited to your ship preference.
That's pretty basic problems of game-design: If you give people options, you also give them the option to do things wrong. To be inefficient.
And if you don't give them options, you end up with a boring game instead.
Give them too many instructions, and players feel railroaded. Give them no instructions at all, leaving them to find their own way ... and a lot will get lost and fail.
Give people feedback on how they're doing, for example by having dps-meters and combat parsers build in, and people will complain about e-peen competitions and elitism. Don't give them those options ... and you breed ignorance and delusion, people who think they're doing fine while failing utterly.
Hard to do it right as a game-designer.
... but hey, that's what we got forums, and community sites for, that's what guilds/fleets can offer help with, right? So at least those people who actually want advice, and want to learn get the opportunity to do so.
... or come to the right place, ignore every advice, and complain. That's the problem with options.
My main problem was that I prefer to run a Jack of all trades cruiser. which was fin pre season 6 but then that changed completely; My damage (felt like it) dropped, NPCs started doing more damage than I could keep up with and the 3 piece borg set didn't help with the support factor of my builds. Which is why I came to the forums firstly to see if anyone else was having the same issue and ended up getting a new build however I'm sure you can understand given the reason above why I was resistant to a new play style.
My main problem was that I prefer to run a Jack of all trades cruiser. which was fin pre season 6 but then that changed completely; My damage (felt like it) dropped, NPCs started doing more damage than I could keep up with and the 3 piece borg set didn't help with the support factor of my builds. Which is why I came to the forums firstly to see if anyone else was having the same issue and ended up getting a new build however I'm sure you can understand given the reason above why I was resistant to a new play style.
Jack of all trades may have worked pre season 6, but as you found out the hard way, it doesn't work that way anymore. I can understand resistance to change, but now that you know you need to build for pure damage output, I am sure your experience will be at least somewhat better. Hopefully.
Remember, the ship can only do what the player enables it to do. And the player can only enable to do what the player is capable of doing. There is where the power/weakness of the ships come from. Equipment is only 20% of the battle. The player is 50% of the fight. The ship is 20% of the battle, and the last 10% is just dumb luck. Welcome to your average MMO XD.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Jack of all trades may have worked pre season 6, but as you found out the hard way, it doesn't work that way anymore. I can understand resistance to change, but now that you know you need to build for pure damage output, I am sure your experience will be at least somewhat better. Hopefully.
Remember, the ship can only do what the player enables it to do. And the player can only enable to do what the player is capable of doing. There is where the power/weakness of the ships come from. Equipment is only 20% of the battle. The player is 50% of the fight. The ship is 20% of the battle, and the last 10% is just dumb luck. Welcome to your average MMO XD.
That "resistance to change" that you point out is a little deal that has completly ruined MMOs before. Case in point? The CU, NGE, and C6CD in SWG. The fact that it was like it was before, players have gotten used to the mechanics, incorporated them into their playstyle, made builds accordingly, and now are in a game that charges real money for respecs to comply with their CHANGES/NERFs causes even more problems than the NGE. NERFs cause less players, subs, and even C-Store buys, period. The sooner Cryptic development actualy figures this out, the better off the game will become and the more players we'll see.
That player "skill" you refer to as well, is only as good as that so called "20%" of gear allows you to be. In the case of "tanking", player skill doesn't have all that much to do with it. Tanking is the ability to soak up damage and if the mechanics you had were NERFed, the skill simply does not exist, or the perverbial "glass cannon" can tank better than the "tank" via P2W selling in the store, then the mechanics need to be CHANGED to allow for that player "skill", not to mention choice.
That "resistance to change" that you point out is a little deal that has completly ruined MMOs before. Case in point? The CU, NGE, and C6CD in SWG. The fact that it was like it was before, players have gotten used to the mechanics, incorporated them into their playstyle, made builds accordingly, and now are in a game that charges real money for respecs to comply with their CHANGES/NERFs causes even more problems than the NGE. NERFs cause less players, subs, and even C-Store buys, period. The sooner Cryptic development actualy figures this out, the better off the game will become and the more players we'll see.
That player "skill" you refer to as well, is only as good as that so called "20%" of gear allows you to be. In the case of "tanking", player skill doesn't have all that much to do with it. Tanking is the ability to soak up damage and if the mechanics you had were NERFed, the skill simply does not exist, or the perverbial "glass cannon" can tank better than the "tank" via P2W selling in the store, then the mechanics need to be CHANGED to allow for that player "skill", not to mention choice.
yeah it is really shamefull that skill change tokens cost that much, in a system that isn't really easy to figure out. I believe a 100 z-points would be more apropriate for that kind of skillsystem. Or it should be included to each ship you buy...since you probably need to change your skills according to your ship anyway.
i can't really agree on your argument that for tanking you need less skill as a player. For current PVE content that is true if you have the right build. But that is certainly not true anymore for PVP. And if you manage to survive in PVP with 5 heal skills, you can survive PVE with 3 or less.
So, does it take less skill to tank PVE?...sure, but that doesn't make you a good tank. A good tank can tank PVE bosses and still keep up with other cruiser that are more damage oriented, because the player skill allows to be more than just a punching ball.
yeah it is really shamefull that skill change tokens cost that much, in a system that isn't really easy to figure out. I believe a 100 z-points would be more apropriate for that kind of skillsystem. Or it should be included to each ship you buy...since you probably need to change your skills according to your ship anyway.
i can't really agree on your argument that for tanking you need less skill as a player. For current PVE content that is true if you have the right build. But that is certainly not true anymore for PVP. And if you manage to survive in PVP with 5 heal skills, you can survive PVE with 3 or less.
So, does it take less skill to tank PVE?...sure, but that doesn't make you a good tank. A good tank can tank PVE bosses and still keep up with other cruiser that are more damage oriented, because the player skill allows to be more than just a punching ball.
PVE is another animal, entirely. I can "tank" tac cubes with a tac is an excel. That, however does not mean that the excel can "tank" in PVP. Why? That's probably 90% due to P2W DPS adds via the Cstore, lobi store, and lockboxes.
Way back, "before the dark times", before the skill box revamps, that same excel could "tank" even in PVP gameplay. But that was with the "hardened shield" build that included consoles that aren't even in the game anylonger (1 of the largest NERFs to tanking right there). Also, hull resists seemed to work differenty as well (back then).
And, it really takes no player "skill" to go out and buy a G board and macro EptS 1 and 2 (or 1 and 3 for that matter), along with TS, and SIF3. It's all dependant upon "buffs" now, isn't it? I run all of that and I fully admit that there is NO "skill" involved as I push 3 buttons and the board does the rest. I guess I paid a good bit for that board and mouse so does that also qualify as P2W? Probably.
You know, SWG did that as well with the last version of the NGE (after C6CD). If you played for a long, long, time then you had all the little buff items that no1 could get anylonger (that were taken out of the game via all the CHANGES/NERFs just like STO is doing now). My jedi had all of those too, and when fully buffed could run 7 full rows+ of nothing but buffs. Basicly god-mode for a couple of minutes. While STO has not added all these little buff items, yet, (as they just added a few more with the fleet buffs) the dependency is still pretty much the same if even some assemblence of balance requires the usage. The only main difference is SWG allowed macros to be made in game so I had 1 key that turned them all on, and several that just used a few for certain circumstances.
Knowing how to tank is something that is very important in PvP. It prolongs survival but in itself is a short lived thing. Husank is right in that there is no tanking in PvP because eventually oncoming damage from focus fire will defeat any tank.
There is resist management and damage mitigation to survive long enough to perform your builds design though.
Its skill I knew little use of until BRJ showed me about it way back when.
I have tried to keep up, though Im sure there is much I do not know.
i can't really agree on your argument that for tanking you need less skill as a player. For current PVE content that is true if you have the right build. But that is certainly not true anymore for PVP. And if you manage to survive in PVP with 5 heal skills, you can survive PVE with 3 or less.
So, does it take less skill to tank PVE?...sure, but that doesn't make you a good tank. A good tank can tank PVE bosses and still keep up with other cruiser that are more damage oriented, because the player skill allows to be more than just a punching ball.
Naturally you can't have, say, only 2 points in tanking skills. For the rest, I think tanking is *very much so* a player skill. You need reasonably good gear, yes, but not absurdly so. Let's face it, if you're a TRIBBLE player, that 30% neutronium isn't going to keep you alive over that 28.8%, sorry.
The more ''clever' tanking comes from a combination of boff and doff powers, and even extra doffs to cycle those powers indefinitely, or add to it. Good doffs are half your setup, really. And then I'm not even talking about debuffing (which, after a fashion, is a form of tanking too).
That's the problem with some cruisers: resist management and damage mitigation is their build's design. Poor poor Galaxy class gets shafted in that department every time.
With a Commander and LTC Engineer BOffs- how?
The Cruiser should have the best resist stacking capability and damage mitigation possible. Especially when you throw in the LT science BOffs on top of it all.
Not to mention, sets, DOffs and the consoles in game.
With a Commander and LTC Engineer BOffs- how?
The Cruiser should have the best resist stacking capability and damage mitigation possible. Especially when you throw in the LT science BOffs on top of it all.
Not to mention, sets, DOffs and the consoles in game.
And that's the problem right there in a nutshell. Crusiers do not have the one-up on mitigation anylonger due to P2W escorts added for the "quick sale". When you have the bug and the fleet patrol escort haveing the exact same amount of eng slots AND they do not need or require a power transfer console to maintain their DPS, the end result is you have escorts that can pure "tank" better than the supposed "tanks". After all, there is ONLY 1 cruis that has the 5 eng console layout, (1), and to be honest I refer to that as P2L (pay-to-live). And that 1 curis makes you pay for that additional console with a slowness and turn rate of basicly, nothing. It's basicly good for nothing except making a "heal-ship" out of it in the comparables.
A lot of people here are confusing "tanking" and "healing" in this and many threads in STO. These have mostly been seperate profs in all MMOs except for STO in my experience. So, I regard tanking as the abilty to do nothing except "soak up damage" (damage mitigation) while healing is for replacing hitpoints that were taken out via damage. In this NERFed version of STO, pure damage mitigation is severly lacking now. While healing may indeed be an add for "tanks", healing, by itself, does not make up the difference in DPS thrown, expecialy for the low DPS tank. In this STO balance version, why fly a cruis when you can fly an escort, run 4 DHCs, throw massive DPS, turn like a fighter, run 5 tac consoles along with it, and basicly do everything "better" with the 1 execption of "healing". And, if you use that "player skill" portion to the right extent with the "get the flock outta dodge buttons" that escorts can run so much of, a good escort doesn't need nor require healing. When you do all the comparables, I have no idea why I still have a tac in an excel, to be honest. Probably nastalga, love of the IP, and not much more.
And really, the P2W designs are futher delegating crusiers to the round files. The new 1000 day "destroyer" with all the possibilitys that it holds with it's eng Boff slots for even now healing turns cruisers basicly obsolete.
PVE is another animal, entirely. I can "tank" tac cubes with a tac is an excel. That, however does not mean that the excel can "tank" in PVP. Why? That's probably 90% due to P2W DPS adds via the Cstore, lobi store, and lockboxes.
Way back, "before the dark times", before the skill box revamps, that same excel could "tank" even in PVP gameplay. But that was with the "hardened shield" build that included consoles that aren't even in the game anylonger (1 of the largest NERFs to tanking right there). Also, hull resists seemed to work differenty as well (back then).
And, it really takes no player "skill" to go out and buy a G board and macro EptS 1 and 2 (or 1 and 3 for that matter), along with TS, and SIF3. It's all dependant upon "buffs" now, isn't it? I run all of that and I fully admit that there is NO "skill" involved as I push 3 buttons and the board does the rest. I guess I paid a good bit for that board and mouse so does that also qualify as P2W? Probably.
You know, SWG did that as well with the last version of the NGE (after C6CD). If you played for a long, long, time then you had all the little buff items that no1 could get anylonger (that were taken out of the game via all the CHANGES/NERFs just like STO is doing now). My jedi had all of those too, and when fully buffed could run 7 full rows+ of nothing but buffs. Basicly god-mode for a couple of minutes. While STO has not added all these little buff items, yet, (as they just added a few more with the fleet buffs) the dependency is still pretty much the same if even some assemblence of balance requires the usage. The only main difference is SWG allowed macros to be made in game so I had 1 key that turned them all on, and several that just used a few for certain circumstances.
Ahhhh. The good ole' days. I remember when me and my Excel' were more active in PvP, and gave as good as I got One of these days I will have the top pf the line (fleet) weapons again and will have time to give it a go again.
And that's the problem right there in a nutshell. Crusiers do not have the one-up on mitigation anylonger due to P2W escorts added for the "quick sale". When you have the bug and the fleet patrol escort haveing the exact same amount of eng slots AND they do not need or require a power transfer console to maintain their DPS,
Wut?
The Fleet Patrol Escort has at most 3 eng boff power slots. And why would a cruiser waste a console slot on a Power Transfer console? My T4 Assault Cruiser does fine without it, are you not keeping your power ratings up with cycled Emergency Powers? Are you sure you actually know how to fly and build properly? Its nothing to be embarrassed about, its not like the game teaches you at ALL how to actually get something good out of a build .
The deadliest escort pilots are probably not running armor in the engineer slots. At the very least, they have RCS loaded in those slots to increase turn rate. More likely its borg console, rule 62, etc etc.
Avoiding damage via high defense is an escorts best defense.
Comments
So if crusiers are not meant to be offensive, what do you want to do with them?
No one needs to be healed anymore (thankfully), at least not that much to turn your ship into a flying hospital. I don't care if this is a MMO or not, i want to fly the Star Trek ships i like and how they are supposed to be (not what cryptic want's them to be).
Who was talking about making Crusiers into the PRIME damage dealers?!?
Even Science ships can be more active, but cruisers just sit somewhere and watch escorts do the job. If you like that, then i am happy for you. But you should see that not everyone wants to accept that. Giving engineering BOFFs some more active powers doesn't have anything to do with YOUR characters CAREER. It would help all Careers (Engineering/tactical/science) to create more active builds. I use mostly my Tactical Captains/Cruisers and i would appreciate some Engineering power that would enhance more directly/effectvely than just DEM or EptW.
Of course you can Buff yourself but this does not have an direct effect on the battlefield or on your enemy.
IF YOU WANT TO KEEP FLYING A MOITIONLESS HOSPITAL WITH NO FIREPOWER THEN YOU CAN, NOONE WOULD KEEP YOU FROM IT. But i prefer to have more options.
(sorry but caps seem to be infective, lol)
I can only speak for myself but i don't care about flying Escorts, i don't even like them very much. I want to Fly a classical Star Trek ship but i don't want to play nanny for other ships.
I hope my english is understandable, since most of the time i find it difficult to find the right words in my native language.
It pains me to see some people state things like a "Gal-X" is a vanity ship and the like, it's just ignorance. Without succuming to too many generalisations I often find these comments to be made by tacs in escorts, most of which tend to die rather quickly.
All I will say is that my own Gal-X flown as an engy is throwing out 1500k-2000k dmg per hit on unshielded targets and can rip through shields rather nicely. There's a great feeling when you take off 30,000k with a spinal lance hit too. This really isn't too far behind most tacs dps in game. All said and done I can solo the cubes in STF and survive 95% of the time when engaged with a tactical cube in elite infected without breaking a sweat.
Know your ship, tweak it, improve it, be open to suggestions and read about abilities. More importantly have fun doing these.
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I do not believe that most of the people here are comparing crusiers with sub-builds to other classes/profs/ships with great builds. Most of the comparison is being made via great builds v great builds on the other sides and then mostly from a PVP standpoint altho PVE is now getting to be purely dependant upon mass DPS as well. I fly a tac in an excel, and have for quite some time and I can go into the 20 man or a 5 man fleet point action and keep up there also. PVE is basicly easy mode compared to PVP gameplay and if your build is even "decent" in PVP it will certainly excel in PVE.
I've flew a cruis since closed beta, mostly with a tac in it. And I've seen nothing in the way of development by Cryptic except for crusier, tanking/healing/Sci powers NERFs while the P2W factory at Cyptic has been put into overdrive, mostly for DPS due to the fact that DPS sells and then 99% from lockboxes. And DPS means escorts in STO.
If you actualy believe your crusier is "the cat's meow", Q up against a good pre-made and see if you can actualy hold to that conslusion. Or you could Q up in your GalX with an eng pilot in an STF with 4 others just like you, or get into a 20 man that's heavy on eng/cruis and see how you fare. You have basicly 2 chances, slim and none, as STFs are on a timer (DPS required) and the 20 man you have to "kill" the ships doing the damage before they "kill" what your trying to save (again DPS required). Just living thru the encounter is not getting optionals or fleet points.
The absolute best PUGs I've played, in STFs or otherwise, is a 5 man escort group. Almost guaranteed optional, even if some1 blows a transformer early even, and with 4 eng console escorts that can "tank" basicly better than my excel (it doesn't need the power console) and throws almost twice the DPS with the "miss" NERF to beams, and ev1 lives thru it just as well.
Played a 5 escort PUG last night in fact with my Sci in a escort carrier where 1 guy started apoligising fast that he blew a transformer early and the rest of us went to work throwing mass DPS and still got the optional as a matter of fact. Could not have done that with 3-4 crusiers in the mix.
The Fleet Patrol is so sturdy because it has a Universal Ensign station (as opposed to, say, the Fleet Defiant).
Escorts, in general, can survive so well because of being able to run 2x EPtS1 + 2x TT1.
It's proposals like this, I reckon, why the devs hardly read the forums: people tend to have a very narrow-minded scope of things, and will go way overboard in their hatred on one particular aspect of the game they don't like (in this case: the Escort allegedly being OP). There's already talk of the devs going to nerf TT. So, now you want to take away a hoard of defenses that benefit everyone, just to get at the Escort? In my native tongue we have a saying: "Don't throw away the child with the bathwater."
I agree and have died to them as well, many times.
R.I.P
Firstly I wasnt talking bout the fleet patrol escort. Rather the basic T5 version. Think its called the Blockade Escort now. Besides, whats the point of a universal ensign slot when you are going to put a engineer in it 95% of the time? It might as well be an engineering slot. This can be said for the majority of the universal slots in the game.
My changes to the attack pattern skills were not intended to nerf escorts, rather to nerf the defensive power of tactical skills. In this game it is unarguable that DPS is king. This needs to change and the best way to do that is to make a real drawback to going all out dps. Survivability SHOULD suffer if you are an escort. As it is you get to use the basic levels of the core tanking BO skills every science / cruiser ship uses AND you get insane defensive buffs on your core DPS skills. This too needs to change and bar removing all engineering BO slots from escorts you have to remove the defensive parts of "tactical" skills.
As for the changes effecting everyone? Only escorts really use high ranks of the attack patterns. The lower rank changes should not really harm cruisers / science ships with lt commander / commander tac slots.
I'm not interesting in nerfing escorts for the sake of nerfing them. I fly one myself. My goal is the same it has always been with suggestions I make; to improve the game for everyone. In this case that is by improving the distinction between the character classes which will help promote teamwork in groups. (with these changes escorts would be squishier I know and once people realise that teams would heal the escorts in their groups more.
I'm all for equality with cruisers, however, there's been way TOO many NERFs in the short history of this game now. Another one will do the same thing as all the others. All NERFs do is cause /ragequit, and that's it. In 8 years of SWG (and for awhile it was called NERF WARS) all I ever seen in the way of balance via NERFs was goodbye mails. This game doesn't need or require any more of that. There's plenty of reasoning to not play STO with P2W, lack of content, etc to go out and look for another.
If crusiers are supposed to be the perverbial "tank", then make them that way again. While they have added new weapons, new high DPS ships, a boat-load of P2W massive DPS consoles, etc, tanking and sci powers have been hit with the NERF bat. In order for an eng in a crusier to do it's job, throwing low constant DPS, a bit of crowd control, and "tank" they have to "live". It's a requirement. IMHO, that's what's needed here, an ADD to crusiers (maybe in hull resists et al) to keep up with the DPS. Not taking away something from another class.
My bad; misread.
The point of having a universal ensign slot, on the Fleet Patrol Escort, is that it is NOT a fixed tact slot, like on the Fleet Defiant (thus giving it a rather useless third tact ensign slot). But yeah, you'll almost always want that universal ensign slot for EPtS1.
From removing shield distribution from TT to removing all defensive abilities from attack patterns, I think it's getting a little too much. That way, everyone will greatly suffer from the nerf, except engineers in their huge-hull cruisers. Good within the confines of this thread, of course, LOL; but probably not so good for the game.
Besides, I still believe the true problem with Escorts -- or the game at large, rather -- is not that they can defend themselves, per se, but that every ship, from very small to very big, can use the same weaponry, with the same DPS, and the same accuracy. I tend to bring it up often, but in EVE they solved this much more elegantly: big vessels, like battleships, can dish out tons of DPS, with bigger weapons, but they are less accurate against smaller targets. And, vice versa, small ships, like frigates, use smaller weapons, thus doing less DSP, but are highly accurate against smaller things. Because STO is basically a dummied-down version of EVE, we're de facto now seeing the adverse affects of having Escorts being able to fit the same weapons as cruisers, as 'smaller' no longer matters. To picture it: a human carrying a bazooka is fine; a mosquite packing a same-sized one is ludicrously disproportionate.
Something needs to change, though; I think pretty much everyone agrees on that.
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>Star Fleet Elite Force< Click if you are ready to boldy go where no one has gone before.
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^ This. So. Bloody. True.
This is actually one thing that BSGO has over this game. The weapon sizes. Take for example, the Strikes (fighters) have little machine guns that are really really accurate, but low damage, and low range. The Escorts (mid sized ships) have middle size guns that are medium accuracy, and hit with medium strength, with medium range. Basically the middle of everything. Then you have Lines (ships of the line, big-#$% mofos) that have massive cannons that hit like a fkin freight train, but aren't accurate against much other than other lines and large targets, and have the longest effective and maximum range.
It came up in a few other cruiser threads that weapons could to be altered depending on which class of ship is using them, and have either weapons more class restricted (like DCs and DHCs already are, but this time move that restriction on to BAs, DBBs, etc), OR alter the weapons effectiveness depending on which class is using them (example, BAs, famous for huge constant power consumption take a 30% dip in damage on a smaller ship since they are designed to generate huge power bursts, but cannot do it on a constant basis, whereas on a big-@#$ cruiser that can sustain the power needed for the weapon keep said weapon at full power, and cannons, with their smaller constant power requirements stay at 100%, but on bigger ships because of the need for more spike power generation (CRF), take a 30% dip because the larger ships can maintain larger amounts of power for longer, but can't spike their energy as a result, or SOMETHING along those lines).
And if you do either, you can then alter the damage output of the weapons to make it a little more fair/balanced. However that would involve a huge overhaul of the system, which means that at MINIMUM the servers would be down for days. Minimum. Possibly weeks depending. And then the uproar would come because people would have to change. And we all know that everyone hates change. Well, not everyone. But it would have a huge impact on gameplay and builds, and stirring up that kind of frenzy might not be in the best interest of the game. But hey, sometimes something big has to be done to get peeps out of the rut no?
There's a saying that I would like to bring to light here.
"If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten. If you want something to change however, you have to do something different."
And my add-on: "And different may not mean better or easier, but at least something will change."
As you yourself say, change is not necessarily better.... But! who here really trusts Cryptic to go poking into the game's best and arguably most popular aspect? Do you really think there is even a 50/50 chance that Cryptic will create a better space combat game than what they have now? They somehow manage to include old bugs into new patch releases that were already fixed! I'd rather they stayed away from the best aspect of the game until they can at least figure out that the gindfest that was S6 and S7 is shaping up to be are not the best way of enticing me to open my wallet.
Not necessarily, Their "Seasons" are likely larger updates and those are s till only a few hours, I would suggest if it is going to take days to do everything regarding any weapon changes then update it one ship class at a time and iron out any bugs as you update each class so it is do-able without taking too long about a single update
About bloody time. Have you not been reading my posts on my damage output? Sheesh!! =P
You just need to maximize you build for damage output. Granted it means you can't do play builds (by play build I mean a build that you just derp around with for fun). Another thing is, serious players are the only ones that can get decent DPS out of cruisers.
TBH, the same is true for Escorts.
It's just a bit more intuitiv, since Escorts are advertised as dps-ships, so most people get that part right. With Escorts, you need to do your homework to build them to survive. Still, there's quite a few people who can't even get more dps out of them than a shuttle, as they run with setups close to what they find when they get them - a horrible mix of beams, cannons, torps and mines, with no synergy or sense.
Cruisers are advertised as tank-ships - so people often make the mistake to turn them into indestructible but useless bricks - and then end up not being able to kill anything.
Just as people who fly Sci-ships can be tempted to ignore everything except their Sci powers ... and end up with fragile ships that can't harm a fly.
Once you learn though which skills are needed for core defense (TT, EPtS, TSS, HE, Aux2SIF, maybe an RSP) and which can be used for offense (weapon type skills and attack patterns for Tac, EPtW and DEM for Eng) and build around that, with no more than a few select abilities for utility - then you unlock the true potential of your ships, with basic sustainability, solid dps, and still enough potential to fill any role suited to your ship preference.
That's pretty basic problems of game-design: If you give people options, you also give them the option to do things wrong. To be inefficient.
And if you don't give them options, you end up with a boring game instead.
Give them too many instructions, and players feel railroaded. Give them no instructions at all, leaving them to find their own way ... and a lot will get lost and fail.
Give people feedback on how they're doing, for example by having dps-meters and combat parsers build in, and people will complain about e-peen competitions and elitism. Don't give them those options ... and you breed ignorance and delusion, people who think they're doing fine while failing utterly.
Hard to do it right as a game-designer.
... but hey, that's what we got forums, and community sites for, that's what guilds/fleets can offer help with, right? So at least those people who actually want advice, and want to learn get the opportunity to do so.
... or come to the right place, ignore every advice, and complain. That's the problem with options.
Jack of all trades may have worked pre season 6, but as you found out the hard way, it doesn't work that way anymore. I can understand resistance to change, but now that you know you need to build for pure damage output, I am sure your experience will be at least somewhat better. Hopefully.
Remember, the ship can only do what the player enables it to do. And the player can only enable to do what the player is capable of doing. There is where the power/weakness of the ships come from. Equipment is only 20% of the battle. The player is 50% of the fight. The ship is 20% of the battle, and the last 10% is just dumb luck. Welcome to your average MMO XD.
That "resistance to change" that you point out is a little deal that has completly ruined MMOs before. Case in point? The CU, NGE, and C6CD in SWG. The fact that it was like it was before, players have gotten used to the mechanics, incorporated them into their playstyle, made builds accordingly, and now are in a game that charges real money for respecs to comply with their CHANGES/NERFs causes even more problems than the NGE. NERFs cause less players, subs, and even C-Store buys, period. The sooner Cryptic development actualy figures this out, the better off the game will become and the more players we'll see.
That player "skill" you refer to as well, is only as good as that so called "20%" of gear allows you to be. In the case of "tanking", player skill doesn't have all that much to do with it. Tanking is the ability to soak up damage and if the mechanics you had were NERFed, the skill simply does not exist, or the perverbial "glass cannon" can tank better than the "tank" via P2W selling in the store, then the mechanics need to be CHANGED to allow for that player "skill", not to mention choice.
Says you, my friend.
I have footage of people tanking real players in nothing but common Mk X gear, if you'd like.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
yeah it is really shamefull that skill change tokens cost that much, in a system that isn't really easy to figure out. I believe a 100 z-points would be more apropriate for that kind of skillsystem. Or it should be included to each ship you buy...since you probably need to change your skills according to your ship anyway.
i can't really agree on your argument that for tanking you need less skill as a player. For current PVE content that is true if you have the right build. But that is certainly not true anymore for PVP. And if you manage to survive in PVP with 5 heal skills, you can survive PVE with 3 or less.
So, does it take less skill to tank PVE?...sure, but that doesn't make you a good tank. A good tank can tank PVE bosses and still keep up with other cruiser that are more damage oriented, because the player skill allows to be more than just a punching ball.
PVE is another animal, entirely. I can "tank" tac cubes with a tac is an excel. That, however does not mean that the excel can "tank" in PVP. Why? That's probably 90% due to P2W DPS adds via the Cstore, lobi store, and lockboxes.
Way back, "before the dark times", before the skill box revamps, that same excel could "tank" even in PVP gameplay. But that was with the "hardened shield" build that included consoles that aren't even in the game anylonger (1 of the largest NERFs to tanking right there). Also, hull resists seemed to work differenty as well (back then).
And, it really takes no player "skill" to go out and buy a G board and macro EptS 1 and 2 (or 1 and 3 for that matter), along with TS, and SIF3. It's all dependant upon "buffs" now, isn't it? I run all of that and I fully admit that there is NO "skill" involved as I push 3 buttons and the board does the rest. I guess I paid a good bit for that board and mouse so does that also qualify as P2W? Probably.
You know, SWG did that as well with the last version of the NGE (after C6CD). If you played for a long, long, time then you had all the little buff items that no1 could get anylonger (that were taken out of the game via all the CHANGES/NERFs just like STO is doing now). My jedi had all of those too, and when fully buffed could run 7 full rows+ of nothing but buffs. Basicly god-mode for a couple of minutes. While STO has not added all these little buff items, yet, (as they just added a few more with the fleet buffs) the dependency is still pretty much the same if even some assemblence of balance requires the usage. The only main difference is SWG allowed macros to be made in game so I had 1 key that turned them all on, and several that just used a few for certain circumstances.
There is resist management and damage mitigation to survive long enough to perform your builds design though.
Its skill I knew little use of until BRJ showed me about it way back when.
I have tried to keep up, though Im sure there is much I do not know.
R.I.P
Naturally you can't have, say, only 2 points in tanking skills. For the rest, I think tanking is *very much so* a player skill. You need reasonably good gear, yes, but not absurdly so. Let's face it, if you're a TRIBBLE player, that 30% neutronium isn't going to keep you alive over that 28.8%, sorry.
The more ''clever' tanking comes from a combination of boff and doff powers, and even extra doffs to cycle those powers indefinitely, or add to it. Good doffs are half your setup, really. And then I'm not even talking about debuffing (which, after a fashion, is a form of tanking too).
With a Commander and LTC Engineer BOffs- how?
The Cruiser should have the best resist stacking capability and damage mitigation possible. Especially when you throw in the LT science BOffs on top of it all.
Not to mention, sets, DOffs and the consoles in game.
R.I.P
And that's the problem right there in a nutshell. Crusiers do not have the one-up on mitigation anylonger due to P2W escorts added for the "quick sale". When you have the bug and the fleet patrol escort haveing the exact same amount of eng slots AND they do not need or require a power transfer console to maintain their DPS, the end result is you have escorts that can pure "tank" better than the supposed "tanks". After all, there is ONLY 1 cruis that has the 5 eng console layout, (1), and to be honest I refer to that as P2L (pay-to-live). And that 1 curis makes you pay for that additional console with a slowness and turn rate of basicly, nothing. It's basicly good for nothing except making a "heal-ship" out of it in the comparables.
A lot of people here are confusing "tanking" and "healing" in this and many threads in STO. These have mostly been seperate profs in all MMOs except for STO in my experience. So, I regard tanking as the abilty to do nothing except "soak up damage" (damage mitigation) while healing is for replacing hitpoints that were taken out via damage. In this NERFed version of STO, pure damage mitigation is severly lacking now. While healing may indeed be an add for "tanks", healing, by itself, does not make up the difference in DPS thrown, expecialy for the low DPS tank. In this STO balance version, why fly a cruis when you can fly an escort, run 4 DHCs, throw massive DPS, turn like a fighter, run 5 tac consoles along with it, and basicly do everything "better" with the 1 execption of "healing". And, if you use that "player skill" portion to the right extent with the "get the flock outta dodge buttons" that escorts can run so much of, a good escort doesn't need nor require healing. When you do all the comparables, I have no idea why I still have a tac in an excel, to be honest. Probably nastalga, love of the IP, and not much more.
And really, the P2W designs are futher delegating crusiers to the round files. The new 1000 day "destroyer" with all the possibilitys that it holds with it's eng Boff slots for even now healing turns cruisers basicly obsolete.
Ahhhh. The good ole' days. I remember when me and my Excel' were more active in PvP, and gave as good as I got
Wut?
The Fleet Patrol Escort has at most 3 eng boff power slots. And why would a cruiser waste a console slot on a Power Transfer console? My T4 Assault Cruiser does fine without it, are you not keeping your power ratings up with cycled Emergency Powers? Are you sure you actually know how to fly and build properly? Its nothing to be embarrassed about, its not like the game teaches you at ALL how to actually get something good out of a build
Avoiding damage via high defense is an escorts best defense.