Firstly, are they by any chance tacticals? Even I can tell that the ship is build for a tactical.
Well this I did with my cruiser and I can tank but my damage is still pathetic lower buffed at 5km than my unbuffed escort at the same distance, please explain how that works.
on hit numbers give the facts, they are the real picture, the on hit numbers are what MATTER
The pre-fire numbers are just theoretical but if you really want pre-fire numbers then you'll find the DHC is higher then the Beam array and you will find the cooldown to be 1/2 that of the Beam array so overall you WILL do more damage using a DHC than you will using a Beam array, in fact if you run 3 DHCs you will be on a par with 8 beams, anything more is surplus on any cruiser... I fail to see how THAT is balanced, then you add buffs and that gap continues too grow and I again fail to see the balance. Now I ACCEPT that cruisers will NOT keep up with escorts but that does not mean they should be made to look incompetent, I want the games combat system returned to what it was in February when I joined and you couldn't just go through the story using unbuffed DC/DHC fire.
all in all endgame PvE needs a change, the DPS race needs to end, DPS needs to be just another way of killing a target just as a broadside should be a successful way of killing something and science tricks should be a successful way of killing something but in different ways. Sadly the current system makes DPS the only way to kill something, you're complaining that if cruisers got a buff to competence in the current system there would be no reason to fly an escort well frankly with the borg set there in no reason to fly a cruiser in the current system.
That assumes constant, sustained fire, right? Firing arcs dictate that you'll often be able to keep dual beam banks trained on your target longer than cannons. And then there's the chance of high burst damage overwhelming a target's healing ability and killing them before they can recover, while the higher DPS weapon didn't quite push it past that threshold fast enough. Arguably narrow circumstances, but they all merit consideration. Higher DPS on "paper" doesn't necessarily mean you always make things explode faster.
That assumes constant, sustained fire, right? Firing arcs dictate that you'll often be able to keep dual beam banks trained on your target longer than cannons. And then there's the chance of high burst damage overwhelming a target's healing ability and killing them before they can recover, while the higher DPS weapon didn't quite push it past that threshold fast enough. Arguably narrow circumstances, but they all merit consideration. Higher DPS on "paper" doesn't necessarily mean you always make things explode faster.
And the poor player broadsides that anyone who knows rotate shield freqs and TT will laugh at no matter how strong it is? Seriously I use RSF and TT together and my shields regen faster than ANY cruisers broadside is damaging them and in the event another cruiser should add to this I add TSS which counters that as well... that alone shows how pathetic broadsides are
This is starting to make me sick. Allow me to reiterate the roles of the ships:
ESCORT: Primary DD/Killer/DPS with enough sustain to survive their passes, but under focused fire, die. Primary weapon of choice: DHC/DBB
CRUISER: Tank/Healer/Support Damage. Survive all but the heaviest of assaults and can still deal OK damage. Takes a while to kill if cruiser built right.
Primary weapon of choice: Beam Arrays
SCIENCE VESSEL: Mind fk. Plain and simple. Either A) Drain builds that leave your ship pretty much a drifting hulk that can then be torped to death, or CC heavy that leaves your ship vulnerable to being destroyed by someone else (usually yes, the ESCORT). Also make pretty good shield tanks.
Primary weapon of choice: Not Entirely Sure
And these guys are right. You CAN build a cruiser with high damage output. I would know, I made one lol. Granted I ain't as tanky as I could be, but my DD ability is great, or at least better than it was before. The best and easiest way to get max damage potential from your cruiser is to divert all power to weapons and keep an EPtW cycling. Also throw in APB or APD and you're gold. TT helps to (that extra 18 damage actually is noticeable).
Cruisers do constant sustained damage. I have actually drawn aggro off of escorts in stfs simply because my sustained damage, even though it takes longer, can actually catch up to their spike damage. And once I draw aggro, I tend to never lose it.
Cuz here's the catch with escorts/tac captains. A large amount of their damage comes from APB and FOMM. And guess what, APB can also be used by EVERYONE ELSE, along with FOMM. If there is a tac captain hitting the same target I am, and they use FOMM, and combine that with both of our APBs (or just mine if the tac decides to be selfish and hit APO3), my sustained damage output can often exceed their spike damage. They get 10 seconds of 5-8k damage per hit from their DHCs, but guess what, I get 30 seconds of 1500-2k per hit from EACH beam array. That's 6 to their 4. So I am doing between 36k-48k with each salvo of 4 shots (sometimes even more if I blow a BFAW + nadion inversion + EPS, I think my max spike was 2500 sustained per hit, which brought my salvo damage up to 60k easily), for 20-30 seconds (that comes down to 4-6 salvos), whereas they are doing 2 salvos of about 80k damage, followed by 2 standard 5-10k salvos. Do the numbers there and it comes down to my ship doing anywhere from 150k to 240k total damage in that burst period, and the escort doing 170-180k with spikes of up to 270k (crit dependent) damage. Now with damage that high, please don't tell me cruisers are TRIBBLE DD... (yes, I had to learn this the hard way)
Something I have come to realized is that engis don't need the APXs that escorts do. Our weapon of choice is actually one of the most balanced weapons as ranges go. We only lose out at most 35% of our total damage, even at max range, whereas cannons can lose up to 60% of their damage at max range. Cannons also start to lose out on their max damage from closer than beam arrays. We do STABLE damage, not spikes. Engis are masters of power management. Run damage control DOffs, and you can keep your power levels at crazily high levels almost constantly. For example, on my Tac Oddy, I can keep my weapons at a stable 150 power and my shields at around 100 power just with EPtS1 and EPtW2 constantly cycling. Since I have two Purple DC DOffs, that's two 35% procs, which usually means that I tend to get the reduced CDs almost every time. Add in my Purple Technician DOff, and even if I don't get the proc, it still reduces CD by 10%, meaning I don't have to wait as long. And with 150 weapons power (sometimes more, sometimes less), my power doesn't drop below 100 until partway through my 6th arrays firing cycle. And if I get really lucky, my power doesn't go below 100, and my beam arrays are doing over 2x damage for their entire firing cycle. That's 700-1200 per shot. CONSTANTLY. My damage per salvo ends up being anywhere from 14k-16k. Consistently. At max range, it drops off to around 10k, but still, that's pretty nasty. It all comes down to power management. And liberal usage of APB.
Even without APB, my shots always do at least 700 per hit. Often more, depending on what I am shooting at. So the thing is, cruisers have a lot of bite, but it depends on which particular cruiser (Oddy Tac cruiser is probably if not the best for damage dealing, at least a close second behind the galor, and by far the best damage dealer with saucer sep active), and how good you are at power management. Cuz tbh, beam arrays hit really hard above 100 power, pretty dang hard at 100 power, and still relatively hard between 80-90. It's once they drop below 75 power that you start to really lose damage, but a good engi will be able to keep his/her weapons power at or above 90 with the proper power management.
*throws up in a corner*
Just gotta learn to play cruisers better and learn which cruisers work well, and which abilities to use.
Because even with all this damage output, I still have 8 heals available to me from the rest of my engi+sci. And only 2 of them are on a shared cd, and that's my TSS1 and TSS2. Which doesn't matter cuz you can chain the two of them together. And those 8 heals can keep myself/allies alive.
So basically I am a cruiser doing it all. Decent damage output (not escort level, but still decent), and a healer that can burst heal 20k followed by 10k HoT without putting power to aux, and with power to aux, I can burst heal 28k followed by almost 15k HoT. All this because I bothered to listen to what the pro (or equivalent thereof) PvP and PvE guys were saying. That and some experimentation on my part.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
What a lot of people get vonfused about
Are differnt characters I'n cruisers
A Tactical player I'n a cruiser can deal about
100% more damage than a Engineer I'n the
Same cruiser
I have all three characters
My Tac flys a cruiser
My Engineer flys a escort
My science flys a science
All three are fun
The engineer I'n a cruiser was a poor experience
Dps is the lowest I'n the game unless you
Want to because target and heal boat it is
A very frustrating team Eng/cruiser
I recommend to any frustrated engineer to get
A tactical escort and make a Tac character
For your cruiser
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
I recommend to any frustrated engineer to get
A tactical escort and make a Tac character
For your cruiser
Now I feel like fish-slapping you too. All the numbers I put up in my wall of text were with an Engi in a cruiser. And the numbers for the escort were a tac in a raptor. So I am sorry to say, if you're frustrated in a cruiser, re-look at what you do in combat, and change things up. Engis in cruisers can be offensively viable. You just gotta know what works and what doesn't. And I am sorry to say that Kirking it out and ignoring advice is under the "what doesn't" category.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
My heavy is probably the most useful in PvE. I just put one beam, 1 dual beam, and a photon, and in rear I have a turret, phaser beam, and photon. It's useful against borg in Ker'rat, along with those pesky klingons.
What a lot of people get vonfused about
Are differnt characters I'n cruisers
A Tactical player I'n a cruiser can deal about
100% more damage than a Engineer I'n the
Same cruiser
Which makes tacts too OP for words even, if you think about it. Yes, I know, they can heal a little less. So? They step into their escort, and do up 300% more burst-damage than you as engineer. With that kind of firepower, who needs anything else?
There is, in and by itself, nothing wrong with the 3 different professions each favoring certain gameplay aspects -- that could still be called balance. The problem, however, is that the game itself (missions/Elite STFs) highly favors DPS over anything else.
And so the tact guy is always favored over anything else. The 'problem' with cruisers is that Cryptic has made their game to be run in escorts. Other than that, nothing wrong with cruisers even.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jellico1
I recommend to any frustrated engineer to get
A tactical escort and make a Tac character
For your cruiser
Now I feel like fish-slapping you too. All the numbers I put up in my wall of text were with an Engi in a cruiser. And the numbers for the escort were a tac in a raptor. So I am sorry to say, if you're frustrated in a cruiser, re-look at what you do in combat, and change things up. Engis in cruisers can be offensively viable. You just gotta know what works and what doesn't. And I am sorry to say that Kirking it out and ignoring advice is under the "what doesn't" category.
Gone in 60 seconds? @#!$% please, you're gone in far less time than that.
Your numbers are pretty and meaningless
The only numbers that matter are the damage numbers
On your target , even better numbers than those
Are shooting probes at kitometer elite
Base damage numbers do not reflect alpha pattern beta
Go down fighting tactical team 2 and about 3 to 5 more
Stacked to together I'n a keybind delivering I'n
Buffs and debuffs close to 200% damage increase
Sure it only lasts 10 seconds but that's all the time you need
To destroy most targets including other players
Only the Tac can get these powerful buffs I'n his
Escort......... As you already know
Add cannons on top Of this buffed damage and the
% of damage increase gets even larger
The larger the base number the larger the % increase
It's the same priniciple as a turning console not
Showing any benefit I'n a cruiser bit giving a good
Turn boost I'n a escort
Most cruisers have few tactical consoles 2 or 3
And few boff tactical ranks
On top of all that the engineer only has 1 buff to
Damage and it's on a 5 minute cool down
I play these characters got good builds and above
Avg equipment , avg is STF mk12 to me
The engineer I'n a cruiser is the WORST character
I'n this Dps geared game
To say otherwise incorrect as your numbers are
Incorrect because they show only a limited amount
Of varabilies that are used to make Dps I'n this
Game
Turnrate
Speed
Working commander and LT commander skills
Like Aceton beam 3 not working Well
Compare it to attack pattern omega
Works fantastic
You numbers look pretty
They reflect nothing I'n game however
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
The only numbers that matter are the damage numbers
On your target , even better numbers than those
Are shooting probes at kitometer elite
Base damage numbers do not reflect alpha pattern beta
Go down fighting tactical team 2 and about 3 to 5 more
Stacked to together I'n a keybind delivering I'n
Buffs and debuffs close to 200% damage increase
Sure it only lasts 10 seconds but that's all the time you need
To destroy most targets including other players
Only the Tac can get these powerful buffs I'n his
Escort......... As you already know
Add cannons on top Of this buffed damage and the
% of damage increase gets even larger
The larger the base number the larger the % increase
It's the same priniciple as a turning console not
Showing any benefit I'n a cruiser bit giving a good
Turn boost I'n a escort
Most cruisers have few tactical consoles 2 or 3
And few boff tactical ranks
On top of all that the engineer only has 1 buff to
Damage and it's on a 5 minute cool down
I play these characters got good builds and above
Avg equipment , avg is STF mk12 to me
The engineer I'n a cruiser is the WORST character
I'n this Dps geared game
To say otherwise incorrect as your numbers are
Incorrect because they show only a limited amount
Of varabilies that are used to make Dps I'n this
Game
Turnrate
Speed
Working commander and LT commander skills
Like Aceton beam 3 not working Well
Compare it to attack pattern omega
Works fantastic
You numbers look pretty
They reflect nothing I'n game however
So I just made these numbers up? These are tested numbers. As in I did an STF and got these numbers, and not just on the lemmings... er probes. I also took numbers from Donatra, Tactical Cubes, the Assimilated Carrier, and... heaven forbid... OTHER PLAYERS.
Contrary to common belief, I don't just type TRIBBLE out to read my own thoughts. I put up things that I have either tested or researched. ESPECIALLY IN MY OWN THREAD. You think I don't take everything into account? You think I am just going to undermine my own thread for fun? I am not sure whether to be insulted or amused.
Please. Think before typing. That way you won't look so foolish to others.
There is an old saying I believe fits you. It is best to be silent and thought a fool, rather than open your mouth and leave no doubt of that fact. You sir, just opened your mouth.
Yes, I based my numbers on the OPTIMAL situations, but I also took less than ideal situations and added in those factors as well. I still say, cruisers are weaker (as they should be), but not completely impotent (as you seem intent on saying).
However since I see a completely biased and insulting remark following this, I am simply going to say that those numbers are real. They were taken from a test I did last night, with both escort and cruiser. So if you don't like it, blow it out your rear, cuz nobody else cares to hear it.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
A science character can tank better than a engineer
Tanking is all a engineer can do besides heal his
Dps is very poor
I based my remarks on hundreds of stfs
To imply nothing is wrong with engineer/cruiser
Is a false statement
This is a Dps game , I would like to see engineer given
More Dps so the character is fun to play with his ship
Class
The only fool around here is the one calling others names
Because your argument is so weak and false I guess
You need name calling to distract from your lame stance
That engineer/cruiser is Fine
Which it isn't .....
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
A science character can tank better than a engineer
Tanking is all a engineer can do besides heal his
Dps is very poor
I based my remarks on hundreds of stfs
To imply nothing is wrong with engineer/cruiser
Is a false statement
This is a Dps game , I would like to see engineer given
More Dps so the character is fun to play with his ship
Class
The only fool around here is the one calling others names
Because your argument is so weak and false I guess
You need name calling to distract from your lame stance
That engineer/cruiser is Fine
Which it isn't .....
"tanking is all an engi can do...besides healing" did you reread this before posting?
engi has 1 grp resibuff, 1 heal that adds resi, and a "ohh ****" heal, that adds resi...that makes him the weaker tank compared to science?...which has 2 resibuffs...care to explain a little further than just stating that BS?
if you find it funny to play a dps role in this game do so...don't play an engi in a cruiser, that is not the dps class combo in this game.
You don't go around in other games and complain about how little dmg the warrior with 1h and shield does with his block abilities, do you? Why do it in STO?
His DPS isn't actually that poor, still lower than escorts and sci with offensive sci powers, but if build correctly, a cruiser grp can actually do the optionals in all elite stfs.
Probably not 5 engis in 5 cruisers, but with a few tacs in cruisers it is more than doable.
But again...if you play an engi in a cruiser, you are basically a warrior/paladin with a shield specced for tanking, and you do not expect them to do much dps generally...don't expect that this is any different in STO.
"tanking is all an engi can do...besides healing" did you reread this before posting?
engi has 1 grp resibuff, 1 heal that adds resi, and a "ohh ****" heal, that adds resi...that makes him the weaker tank compared to science?...which has 2 resibuffs...care to explain a little further than just stating that BS?
if you find it funny to play a dps role in this game do so...don't play an engi in a cruiser, that is not the dps class combo in this game.
You don't go around in other games and complain about how little dmg the warrior with 1h and shield does with his block abilities, do you? Why do it in STO?
His DPS isn't actually that poor, still lower than escorts and sci with offensive sci powers, but if build correctly, a cruiser grp can actually do the optionals in all elite stfs.
Probably not 5 engis in 5 cruisers, but with a few tacs in cruisers it is more than doable.
But again...if you play an engi in a cruiser, you are basically a warrior/paladin with a shield specced for tanking, and you do not expect them to do much dps generally...don't expect that this is any different in STO.
I think his point was that even tough a science character can tank better than a Engineer, a science character has still other options to do damage, while a engineer hasn't.
I must say that playing an engineer is much less versatile than playing a science off.
While in other games there is a need for a "healer" class, STO has two of them. A player with a science toon can decide to be more active in (space) combat, while a engineer just hasn't the option to do anything else than heal.
When it comes to ships (cruisers) this especially bothers me, since "cruisers" in "real" star trek wheren't even nearly as passive and boring. I know this is just a MMO, but since this is still a Star Trek game i expect ships to be at least to be a bit like they are supposed to be. Other games could picture Star trek ships way better, why is this even a problem in STO?
In STO they (cruisers) should be much more alike escorts, just with a focus on survivability. But in STO it's just too extreme, some cruisers are nothing more than healing platforms, that's just not right!
I would agree with you if STO wheren't a Star Trek game, but in Star Trek things work different.
I hope my english is understandable, since most of the time i am unable to find the right words in my native language already.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
"tanking is all an engi can do...besides healing" did you reread this before posting?
engi has 1 grp resibuff, 1 heal that adds resi, and a "ohh ****" heal, that adds resi...that makes him the weaker tank compared to science?...which has 2 resibuffs...care to explain a little further than just stating that BS?
When I read his statement that "A science character can tank better than a engineer," I think he took a (rather narrow) look at ship shield modifiers, saw that sci ships have higher shield modifiers, and thus concluded sci players can tank better.
Yet we have Miracle Worker III, restoring a whopping +12,285 hit points and +4,095 shield regeneration, and repairs disabled subsystems. We furher have abilities like Engineering Team, Rotate Shield Frequency, and a powerful Engineering Fleet to keep ourselves and our allies alive.
His view that sci folks can tank better than engineers is rather unique (and probably should stay that way).
first of all, forget what cruiser are/were in the films and shows...thats really something that needs to thrown overboard.
the classes itself are pretty much defined as tank, dd and support...people may argue about that further, but it is pretty much like that.
the real choice comes with your ship, but you will always keep the focus of your class.
I can put my tac in a cruiser and play him as a healer or tank...but never as good in that position as an engi...but i will do more dmg than the engi/cruiser combo.
So if you ask for more dmg in your cruiser, fly it with a tac. If you want more dmg with your engi toon, get him/her an escort. Thats how you balance it around in this game.
I'm sorry that some people can't fly their favourite ships because of that system, but thats how it is and it will not change, atleast not in the foreseeable future.
But i'm repeating myself, trying to explain not even my point of view, but basic game features that should be clear from day one.
the classes itself are pretty much defined as tank, dd and support...people may argue about that further, but it is pretty much like that.
the real choice comes with your ship, but you will always keep the focus of your class.
I can put my tac in a cruiser and play him as a healer or tank...but never as good in that position as an engi...but i will do more dmg than the engi/cruiser combo.
So if you ask for more dmg in your cruiser, fly it with a tac. If you want more dmg with your engi toon, get him/her an escort. Thats how you balance it around in this game.
I'm sorry that some people can't fly their favourite ships because of that system, but thats how it is and it will not change, atleast not in the foreseeable future.
But i'm repeating myself, trying to explain not even my point of view, but basic game features that should be clear from day one.
In theory, you can use your career to push your playstyle, that's where you are right. Everyone knows that, but the point is that Cruisers in STO don't offer enough satisfying options to make them do damage. That's where the games balance is flawed.
I hope my english is understandable, since most of the time i am unable to find the right words in my native language already.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
In theory, you can use your career to push your playstyle, that's where you are right. Everyone knows that, but the point is that Cruisers in STO don't offer enough satisfying options to make them do damage. That's where the games balance is flawed.
The game is not flawed when you don't understand the role of the cruiser.
That the STF optionals design is geared toward spike damage is another matter.
But Cruisers are doing what they are intended for.
But Cruisers are doing what they are intended for.
In STO cruisers are intended to Heal escorts or science ships, period.
First, most of the time escorts and science ships don't need any healing, because they have enough survivability to get along very well. (which i like since i never saw Star Trek ships being "healed" by other ships, to such a extend as in STO.)
Second, unlike science ships which have acess to a much greater variety of powers, (starfleet) cruisers are stuck in the role of being flying hospitals.
If anything they should be more on par with escorts, just being slower but more survivable.
BTW: Why don't you just read some of the previous pages instead of coming up with the same stuff that has already been discussed a hunded times already?
I hope my english is understandable, since most of the time i am unable to find the right words in my native language already.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
The possibility exists that this thread just did what all cruiser threads did. Talked itself into a hole, walked around in that hole for a while, finally got itself out, and then proceeded to dig another one exactly like it. Rinse and repeat.
A science character can tank better than a engineer Dead wrong. Seriously dead wrong.
Tanking is all a engineer can do besides heal his
Dps is very poor Ever tried all power to weapons + EPtWX + tactical consoles?
I based my remarks on hundreds of stfs
To imply nothing is wrong with engineer/cruiser
Is a false statement Read below reply
This is a Dps game , I would like to see engineer given
More Dps so the character is fun to play with his ship
Class Except for one tiny little detail. He's not a tac, so DPS is not his game...
The only fool around here is the one calling others names
Because your argument is so weak and false I guess Only because I stopped agreeing with you.
You need name calling to distract from your lame stance
That engineer/cruiser is Fine
Which it isn't .....
For starters, I am not implying that there is nothing wrong with the engi/cruiser combo. I am straight out saying it. Let me try it italicized, bolded, and underlined. There is nothing wrong with the engineer cruiser combination. Now before you blow your top, think. Carefully. What do engineers do? They keep the ship and fleets running (which in this game, equates to healing and buff removal). What do cruisers do? They take hits, and give it back, and are slow and cumbersome.
Cruisers are working as intended in this game. If you read the information regarding cruiser classes on the wiki and on posts by experienced PvPrs and PvErs, you will see, that cruisers are doing their jobs. And yes, they are. We (and I mean we, since I fly a fkin cruiser) heal like bosses, and can still do decent damage. Nothing close to the DD ability of the escort, but NEWS FLASH, it's NOT OUR JOB. But we aren't as toothless as I was first led to believe. Just took some tweaking of my build, and all of a sudden, my damage output almost tripled. Overnight. Seriously, it was over the course of 3 fights.
Now before you blow a gasket, call me a noob/inexperienced/has no idea wtf he is talking about, listen to this. Cruisers are working as their role in game intended. WHAT IS BROKEN IS THE GAME. If you actually bothered to read beforehand jellico, you would see that it is the endgame content that is obsessed with speed and damage output.
So let me reiterate some points here:
1) THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH CRUISERS OR ENGINEERS AT THIS POINT IN TIME (other than a slight damage weakness, but not nearly to the extent I used to believe, albeit could probably still use some tweaking/buffing). THEY ARE WORKING AS INTENDED (which is healers and damage support).
2) THERE IS NO CURRENT REQUIREMENT FOR ENGINEER/CRUISER COMBINATIONS AT THIS POINT IN TIME. We were rendered unnecessary by the switch to f2p and this sudden obsession with maximum possible damage output in order to beat the timer on ESTFs and other endgame content (excluding PvP, one of the few arenas that Engi/Cruiser combos still seem to be useful).
Now if you can somehow get those points into your skull and comprehend and understand them, then we can finally move on to point 3. However if you still feel like arguing, re-read points 1 and 2 very carefully until you get sick of it and are too frustrated, or until you come to the realization that what I say is not only logical, but true.
3) Until the game is changed (not the ships mind you), and the insane stupidity with maximized DPS being a requirement for the end-game content to be efficient and successful, there is no real way that the engi/cruiser combo can be brought back competitively without breaking the game in favor of said combo.
In other words, can't give it more bite without making them infringe on tacs job, and you don't want them to become even more support role based (which would then infringe on the sci's job), which kind of leaves them stuck where they are.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
I agree with just about everything posted here, My Galaxy class sucks and its getting ridiculous.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the [URL="http://sto-
forum.perfectworld.com/announcement.php?&a=51"]Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules
and Policies [/URL]. ~Bluegeek
Its not like ideas have not been given that could help the Cruiser feel more fun in STO.
New weapons, New Tac BOff abilities for beams, a turnrate/enertia buff, etc.
Yet none have been embraced by those thinking thier Cruiser is suppossed to be a big slow escort or the Engineer should be as competant at Damage Dealing as the Tactical class is ingame.
If those ideas are not good enough, the Engineer/Cruiser fanbase is screwed becuase that leaves them fixing thier game so direct applied High DPS is not the only thing that completes Optionals or overcomes the Endgame enemies.
Becuase frankly, changing the Engineer to be a secondary Tac class is not an option.
Becuase frankly, changing the Cruiser (again) to make a Tactical BOff heavy set-up is not an option unless we also see Tactical Heavy BOffed Science Vessels becuase honestly, the 1000 day Vet reward vessel is a Engineer heavy escort set-up perfect for what the Engineer/Cruiser crowd wants out of a ship.
I agree with just about everything posted here, My Galaxy class sucks and its getting ridiculous.
thats because it is exactly that one ship that is at the end of one side of the spectrum...too much actually to be viable for solo play imho. That ship has the tankiest/supportive setup in game. It is not supposed to be a viable dmg dealer.
That doesn't make cruisers in general a "joke". If you want to deal more dmg and still fly a cruiser, then the galaxy-r is the worste choice you can make, but thats a design intention.
The better choices for dealing dmg in a cruiser are definately the d'kora, galor, Regent, excelsior retrofit, tac or sci oddy with tac as ltdcmdr...and ofcourse you will need a tac captain in it.
and as usual it can't be explained more precise than roach did...but to be honest this conversation has made about 50 turns in a circle already. Some still can't embrace the bigger picture behind it, and i pitty them.
and yes...cruisers in the game are nothing like the ships in the films and shows. you can do that in single player games (SFC1-3, Bridge commander,etc...) but not in a game that has a little more diversity or complexity regarding ship classes. Cruisers are allways "THE SHIP" in the shows...that is just not doable in a MMO that wants to be a little complex in that regard.
Becuase frankly, changing the Cruiser (again) to make a Tactical BOff heavy set-up is not an option unless we also see Tactical Heavy BOffed Science Vessels becuase honestly, the 1000 day Vet reward vessel is a Engineer heavy escort set-up perfect for what the Engineer/Cruiser crowd wants out of a ship.
It just costs a 150? -.-
Hopefully the Vesta will be a C-Store equivalent for it :-)
Comments
not again...stop using on hit numbers...
on hit numbers give the facts, they are the real picture, the on hit numbers are what MATTER
The pre-fire numbers are just theoretical but if you really want pre-fire numbers then you'll find the DHC is higher then the Beam array and you will find the cooldown to be 1/2 that of the Beam array so overall you WILL do more damage using a DHC than you will using a Beam array, in fact if you run 3 DHCs you will be on a par with 8 beams, anything more is surplus on any cruiser... I fail to see how THAT is balanced, then you add buffs and that gap continues too grow and I again fail to see the balance. Now I ACCEPT that cruisers will NOT keep up with escorts but that does not mean they should be made to look incompetent, I want the games combat system returned to what it was in February when I joined and you couldn't just go through the story using unbuffed DC/DHC fire.
all in all endgame PvE needs a change, the DPS race needs to end, DPS needs to be just another way of killing a target just as a broadside should be a successful way of killing something and science tricks should be a successful way of killing something but in different ways. Sadly the current system makes DPS the only way to kill something, you're complaining that if cruisers got a buff to competence in the current system there would be no reason to fly an escort well frankly with the borg set there in no reason to fly a cruiser in the current system.
And the poor player broadsides that anyone who knows rotate shield freqs and TT will laugh at no matter how strong it is? Seriously I use RSF and TT together and my shields regen faster than ANY cruisers broadside is damaging them and in the event another cruiser should add to this I add TSS which counters that as well... that alone shows how pathetic broadsides are
ESCORT: Primary DD/Killer/DPS with enough sustain to survive their passes, but under focused fire, die. Primary weapon of choice: DHC/DBB
CRUISER: Tank/Healer/Support Damage. Survive all but the heaviest of assaults and can still deal OK damage. Takes a while to kill if cruiser built right.
Primary weapon of choice: Beam Arrays
SCIENCE VESSEL: Mind fk. Plain and simple. Either A) Drain builds that leave your ship pretty much a drifting hulk that can then be torped to death, or
Primary weapon of choice: Not Entirely Sure
And these guys are right. You CAN build a cruiser with high damage output. I would know, I made one lol. Granted I ain't as tanky as I could be, but my DD ability is great, or at least better than it was before. The best and easiest way to get max damage potential from your cruiser is to divert all power to weapons and keep an EPtW cycling. Also throw in APB or APD and you're gold. TT helps to (that extra 18 damage actually is noticeable).
Cruisers do constant sustained damage. I have actually drawn aggro off of escorts in stfs simply because my sustained damage, even though it takes longer, can actually catch up to their spike damage. And once I draw aggro, I tend to never lose it.
Cuz here's the catch with escorts/tac captains. A large amount of their damage comes from APB and FOMM. And guess what, APB can also be used by EVERYONE ELSE, along with FOMM. If there is a tac captain hitting the same target I am, and they use FOMM, and combine that with both of our APBs (or just mine if the tac decides to be selfish and hit APO3), my sustained damage output can often exceed their spike damage. They get 10 seconds of 5-8k damage per hit from their DHCs, but guess what, I get 30 seconds of 1500-2k per hit from EACH beam array. That's 6 to their 4. So I am doing between 36k-48k with each salvo of 4 shots (sometimes even more if I blow a BFAW + nadion inversion + EPS, I think my max spike was 2500 sustained per hit, which brought my salvo damage up to 60k easily), for 20-30 seconds (that comes down to 4-6 salvos), whereas they are doing 2 salvos of about 80k damage, followed by 2 standard 5-10k salvos. Do the numbers there and it comes down to my ship doing anywhere from 150k to 240k total damage in that burst period, and the escort doing 170-180k with spikes of up to 270k (crit dependent) damage. Now with damage that high, please don't tell me cruisers are TRIBBLE DD... (yes, I had to learn this the hard way)
Something I have come to realized is that engis don't need the APXs that escorts do. Our weapon of choice is actually one of the most balanced weapons as ranges go. We only lose out at most 35% of our total damage, even at max range, whereas cannons can lose up to 60% of their damage at max range. Cannons also start to lose out on their max damage from closer than beam arrays. We do STABLE damage, not spikes. Engis are masters of power management. Run damage control DOffs, and you can keep your power levels at crazily high levels almost constantly. For example, on my Tac Oddy, I can keep my weapons at a stable 150 power and my shields at around 100 power just with EPtS1 and EPtW2 constantly cycling. Since I have two Purple DC DOffs, that's two 35% procs, which usually means that I tend to get the reduced CDs almost every time. Add in my Purple Technician DOff, and even if I don't get the proc, it still reduces CD by 10%, meaning I don't have to wait as long. And with 150 weapons power (sometimes more, sometimes less), my power doesn't drop below 100 until partway through my 6th arrays firing cycle. And if I get really lucky, my power doesn't go below 100, and my beam arrays are doing over 2x damage for their entire firing cycle. That's 700-1200 per shot. CONSTANTLY. My damage per salvo ends up being anywhere from 14k-16k. Consistently. At max range, it drops off to around 10k, but still, that's pretty nasty. It all comes down to power management. And liberal usage of APB.
Even without APB, my shots always do at least 700 per hit. Often more, depending on what I am shooting at. So the thing is, cruisers have a lot of bite, but it depends on which particular cruiser (Oddy Tac cruiser is probably if not the best for damage dealing, at least a close second behind the galor, and by far the best damage dealer with saucer sep active), and how good you are at power management. Cuz tbh, beam arrays hit really hard above 100 power, pretty dang hard at 100 power, and still relatively hard between 80-90. It's once they drop below 75 power that you start to really lose damage, but a good engi will be able to keep his/her weapons power at or above 90 with the proper power management.
*throws up in a corner*
Just gotta learn to play cruisers better and learn which cruisers work well, and which abilities to use.
Because even with all this damage output, I still have 8 heals available to me from the rest of my engi+sci. And only 2 of them are on a shared cd, and that's my TSS1 and TSS2. Which doesn't matter cuz you can chain the two of them together. And those 8 heals can keep myself/allies alive.
So basically I am a cruiser doing it all. Decent damage output (not escort level, but still decent), and a healer that can burst heal 20k followed by 10k HoT without putting power to aux, and with power to aux, I can burst heal 28k followed by almost 15k HoT. All this because I bothered to listen to what the pro (or equivalent thereof) PvP and PvE guys were saying. That and some experimentation on my part.
Could you say that all again?
R.I.P
*fish slaps on the face*
Did that clarify it for you? XP
Are differnt characters I'n cruisers
A Tactical player I'n a cruiser can deal about
100% more damage than a Engineer I'n the
Same cruiser
I have all three characters
My Tac flys a cruiser
My Engineer flys a escort
My science flys a science
All three are fun
The engineer I'n a cruiser was a poor experience
Dps is the lowest I'n the game unless you
Want to because target and heal boat it is
A very frustrating team Eng/cruiser
I recommend to any frustrated engineer to get
A tactical escort and make a Tac character
For your cruiser
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Now I feel like fish-slapping you too. All the numbers I put up in my wall of text were with an Engi in a cruiser. And the numbers for the escort were a tac in a raptor. So I am sorry to say, if you're frustrated in a cruiser, re-look at what you do in combat, and change things up. Engis in cruisers can be offensively viable. You just gotta know what works and what doesn't. And I am sorry to say that Kirking it out and ignoring advice is under the "what doesn't" category.
Woo ooo ooo. Peeerfect!
R.I.P
Anytime
But in all seriousness, did anything in my post need clarification?
Which makes tacts too OP for words even, if you think about it. Yes, I know, they can heal a little less. So? They step into their escort, and do up 300% more burst-damage than you as engineer. With that kind of firepower, who needs anything else?
There is, in and by itself, nothing wrong with the 3 different professions each favoring certain gameplay aspects -- that could still be called balance. The problem, however, is that the game itself (missions/Elite STFs) highly favors DPS over anything else.
And so the tact guy is always favored over anything else. The 'problem' with cruisers is that Cryptic has made their game to be run in escorts. Other than that, nothing wrong with cruisers even.
Today, 04:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jellico1
I recommend to any frustrated engineer to get
A tactical escort and make a Tac character
For your cruiser
Now I feel like fish-slapping you too. All the numbers I put up in my wall of text were with an Engi in a cruiser. And the numbers for the escort were a tac in a raptor. So I am sorry to say, if you're frustrated in a cruiser, re-look at what you do in combat, and change things up. Engis in cruisers can be offensively viable. You just gotta know what works and what doesn't. And I am sorry to say that Kirking it out and ignoring advice is under the "what doesn't" category.
Gone in 60 seconds? @#!$% please, you're gone in far less time than that.
Your numbers are pretty and meaningless
The only numbers that matter are the damage numbers
On your target , even better numbers than those
Are shooting probes at kitometer elite
Base damage numbers do not reflect alpha pattern beta
Go down fighting tactical team 2 and about 3 to 5 more
Stacked to together I'n a keybind delivering I'n
Buffs and debuffs close to 200% damage increase
Sure it only lasts 10 seconds but that's all the time you need
To destroy most targets including other players
Only the Tac can get these powerful buffs I'n his
Escort......... As you already know
Add cannons on top Of this buffed damage and the
% of damage increase gets even larger
The larger the base number the larger the % increase
It's the same priniciple as a turning console not
Showing any benefit I'n a cruiser bit giving a good
Turn boost I'n a escort
Most cruisers have few tactical consoles 2 or 3
And few boff tactical ranks
On top of all that the engineer only has 1 buff to
Damage and it's on a 5 minute cool down
I play these characters got good builds and above
Avg equipment , avg is STF mk12 to me
The engineer I'n a cruiser is the WORST character
I'n this Dps geared game
To say otherwise incorrect as your numbers are
Incorrect because they show only a limited amount
Of varabilies that are used to make Dps I'n this
Game
Turnrate
Speed
Working commander and LT commander skills
Like Aceton beam 3 not working Well
Compare it to attack pattern omega
Works fantastic
You numbers look pretty
They reflect nothing I'n game however
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
So I just made these numbers up? These are tested numbers. As in I did an STF and got these numbers, and not just on the lemmings... er probes. I also took numbers from Donatra, Tactical Cubes, the Assimilated Carrier, and... heaven forbid... OTHER PLAYERS.
Contrary to common belief, I don't just type TRIBBLE out to read my own thoughts. I put up things that I have either tested or researched. ESPECIALLY IN MY OWN THREAD. You think I don't take everything into account? You think I am just going to undermine my own thread for fun? I am not sure whether to be insulted or amused.
Please. Think before typing. That way you won't look so foolish to others.
There is an old saying I believe fits you. It is best to be silent and thought a fool, rather than open your mouth and leave no doubt of that fact. You sir, just opened your mouth.
Yes, I based my numbers on the OPTIMAL situations, but I also took less than ideal situations and added in those factors as well. I still say, cruisers are weaker (as they should be), but not completely impotent (as you seem intent on saying).
However since I see a completely biased and insulting remark following this, I am simply going to say that those numbers are real. They were taken from a test I did last night, with both escort and cruiser. So if you don't like it, blow it out your rear, cuz nobody else cares to hear it.
Deals OK damage... lol, how very articulate.
Tanking is all a engineer can do besides heal his
Dps is very poor
I based my remarks on hundreds of stfs
To imply nothing is wrong with engineer/cruiser
Is a false statement
This is a Dps game , I would like to see engineer given
More Dps so the character is fun to play with his ship
Class
The only fool around here is the one calling others names
Because your argument is so weak and false I guess
You need name calling to distract from your lame stance
That engineer/cruiser is Fine
Which it isn't .....
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
"tanking is all an engi can do...besides healing" did you reread this before posting?
engi has 1 grp resibuff, 1 heal that adds resi, and a "ohh ****" heal, that adds resi...that makes him the weaker tank compared to science?...which has 2 resibuffs...care to explain a little further than just stating that BS?
if you find it funny to play a dps role in this game do so...don't play an engi in a cruiser, that is not the dps class combo in this game.
You don't go around in other games and complain about how little dmg the warrior with 1h and shield does with his block abilities, do you? Why do it in STO?
His DPS isn't actually that poor, still lower than escorts and sci with offensive sci powers, but if build correctly, a cruiser grp can actually do the optionals in all elite stfs.
Probably not 5 engis in 5 cruisers, but with a few tacs in cruisers it is more than doable.
But again...if you play an engi in a cruiser, you are basically a warrior/paladin with a shield specced for tanking, and you do not expect them to do much dps generally...don't expect that this is any different in STO.
I must say that playing an engineer is much less versatile than playing a science off.
While in other games there is a need for a "healer" class, STO has two of them. A player with a science toon can decide to be more active in (space) combat, while a engineer just hasn't the option to do anything else than heal.
When it comes to ships (cruisers) this especially bothers me, since "cruisers" in "real" star trek wheren't even nearly as passive and boring. I know this is just a MMO, but since this is still a Star Trek game i expect ships to be at least to be a bit like they are supposed to be. Other games could picture Star trek ships way better, why is this even a problem in STO?
In STO they (cruisers) should be much more alike escorts, just with a focus on survivability. But in STO it's just too extreme, some cruisers are nothing more than healing platforms, that's just not right!
I would agree with you if STO wheren't a Star Trek game, but in Star Trek things work different.
I hope my english is understandable, since most of the time i am unable to find the right words in my native language already.
When I read his statement that "A science character can tank better than a engineer," I think he took a (rather narrow) look at ship shield modifiers, saw that sci ships have higher shield modifiers, and thus concluded sci players can tank better.
Yet we have Miracle Worker III, restoring a whopping +12,285 hit points and +4,095 shield regeneration, and repairs disabled subsystems. We furher have abilities like Engineering Team, Rotate Shield Frequency, and a powerful Engineering Fleet to keep ourselves and our allies alive.
His view that sci folks can tank better than engineers is rather unique (and probably should stay that way).
the classes itself are pretty much defined as tank, dd and support...people may argue about that further, but it is pretty much like that.
the real choice comes with your ship, but you will always keep the focus of your class.
I can put my tac in a cruiser and play him as a healer or tank...but never as good in that position as an engi...but i will do more dmg than the engi/cruiser combo.
So if you ask for more dmg in your cruiser, fly it with a tac. If you want more dmg with your engi toon, get him/her an escort. Thats how you balance it around in this game.
I'm sorry that some people can't fly their favourite ships because of that system, but thats how it is and it will not change, atleast not in the foreseeable future.
But i'm repeating myself, trying to explain not even my point of view, but basic game features that should be clear from day one.
Nope. It was as clear as any other posting in here trying to explain the class roles as they are in game.
R.I.P
In theory, you can use your career to push your playstyle, that's where you are right. Everyone knows that, but the point is that Cruisers in STO don't offer enough satisfying options to make them do damage. That's where the games balance is flawed.
I hope my english is understandable, since most of the time i am unable to find the right words in my native language already.
The game is not flawed when you don't understand the role of the cruiser.
That the STF optionals design is geared toward spike damage is another matter.
But Cruisers are doing what they are intended for.
First, most of the time escorts and science ships don't need any healing, because they have enough survivability to get along very well.
(which i like since i never saw Star Trek ships being "healed" by other ships, to such a extend as in STO.)
Second, unlike science ships which have acess to a much greater variety of powers, (starfleet) cruisers are stuck in the role of being flying hospitals.
If anything they should be more on par with escorts, just being slower but more survivable.
BTW: Why don't you just read some of the previous pages instead of coming up with the same stuff that has already been discussed a hunded times already?
I hope my english is understandable, since most of the time i am unable to find the right words in my native language already.
For starters, I am not implying that there is nothing wrong with the engi/cruiser combo. I am straight out saying it. Let me try it italicized, bolded, and underlined. There is nothing wrong with the engineer cruiser combination. Now before you blow your top, think. Carefully. What do engineers do? They keep the ship and fleets running (which in this game, equates to healing and buff removal). What do cruisers do? They take hits, and give it back, and are slow and cumbersome.
Cruisers are working as intended in this game. If you read the information regarding cruiser classes on the wiki and on posts by experienced PvPrs and PvErs, you will see, that cruisers are doing their jobs. And yes, they are. We (and I mean we, since I fly a fkin cruiser) heal like bosses, and can still do decent damage. Nothing close to the DD ability of the escort, but NEWS FLASH, it's NOT OUR JOB. But we aren't as toothless as I was first led to believe. Just took some tweaking of my build, and all of a sudden, my damage output almost tripled. Overnight. Seriously, it was over the course of 3 fights.
Now before you blow a gasket, call me a noob/inexperienced/has no idea wtf he is talking about, listen to this. Cruisers are working as their role in game intended. WHAT IS BROKEN IS THE GAME. If you actually bothered to read beforehand jellico, you would see that it is the endgame content that is obsessed with speed and damage output.
So let me reiterate some points here:
1) THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH CRUISERS OR ENGINEERS AT THIS POINT IN TIME (other than a slight damage weakness, but not nearly to the extent I used to believe, albeit could probably still use some tweaking/buffing). THEY ARE WORKING AS INTENDED (which is healers and damage support).
2) THERE IS NO CURRENT REQUIREMENT FOR ENGINEER/CRUISER COMBINATIONS AT THIS POINT IN TIME. We were rendered unnecessary by the switch to f2p and this sudden obsession with maximum possible damage output in order to beat the timer on ESTFs and other endgame content (excluding PvP, one of the few arenas that Engi/Cruiser combos still seem to be useful).
Now if you can somehow get those points into your skull and comprehend and understand them, then we can finally move on to point 3. However if you still feel like arguing, re-read points 1 and 2 very carefully until you get sick of it and are too frustrated, or until you come to the realization that what I say is not only logical, but true.
3) Until the game is changed (not the ships mind you), and the insane stupidity with maximized DPS being a requirement for the end-game content to be efficient and successful, there is no real way that the engi/cruiser combo can be brought back competitively without breaking the game in favor of said combo.
In other words, can't give it more bite without making them infringe on tacs job, and you don't want them to become even more support role based (which would then infringe on the sci's job), which kind of leaves them stuck where they are.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the [URL="http://sto-
forum.perfectworld.com/announcement.php?&a=51"]Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules
and Policies [/URL]. ~Bluegeek
New weapons, New Tac BOff abilities for beams, a turnrate/enertia buff, etc.
Yet none have been embraced by those thinking thier Cruiser is suppossed to be a big slow escort or the Engineer should be as competant at Damage Dealing as the Tactical class is ingame.
If those ideas are not good enough, the Engineer/Cruiser fanbase is screwed becuase that leaves them fixing thier game so direct applied High DPS is not the only thing that completes Optionals or overcomes the Endgame enemies.
Becuase frankly, changing the Engineer to be a secondary Tac class is not an option.
Becuase frankly, changing the Cruiser (again) to make a Tactical BOff heavy set-up is not an option unless we also see Tactical Heavy BOffed Science Vessels becuase honestly, the 1000 day Vet reward vessel is a Engineer heavy escort set-up perfect for what the Engineer/Cruiser crowd wants out of a ship.
R.I.P
thats because it is exactly that one ship that is at the end of one side of the spectrum...too much actually to be viable for solo play imho. That ship has the tankiest/supportive setup in game. It is not supposed to be a viable dmg dealer.
That doesn't make cruisers in general a "joke". If you want to deal more dmg and still fly a cruiser, then the galaxy-r is the worste choice you can make, but thats a design intention.
The better choices for dealing dmg in a cruiser are definately the d'kora, galor, Regent, excelsior retrofit, tac or sci oddy with tac as ltdcmdr...and ofcourse you will need a tac captain in it.
and as usual it can't be explained more precise than roach did...but to be honest this conversation has made about 50 turns in a circle already. Some still can't embrace the bigger picture behind it, and i pitty them.
and yes...cruisers in the game are nothing like the ships in the films and shows. you can do that in single player games (SFC1-3, Bridge commander,etc...) but not in a game that has a little more diversity or complexity regarding ship classes. Cruisers are allways "THE SHIP" in the shows...that is just not doable in a MMO that wants to be a little complex in that regard.
It just costs a 150? -.-
Hopefully the Vesta will be a C-Store equivalent for it :-)