The only solution I have ever seen suggested that would work, and not be overly exploitable and allow for griefing, is to not be teamed with people on your ignore list. You come accross a leecher and you report them then put that person on your ignore/block list and you will never be on a team with them again. Over time that person will have to wait forever to find a match. I would speculate in a matter of weeks the leecher would be hard pressed to be able to queue any match.
The only solution I have ever seen suggested that would work, and not be overly exploitable and allow for griefing, is to not be teamed with people on your ignore list. You come accross a leecher and you report them then put that person on your ignore/block list and you will never be on a team with them again. Over time that person will have to wait forever to find a match. I would speculate in a matter of weeks the leecher would be hard pressed to be able to queue any match.
Even that I could stomach better than a votekick w/ leaver penalty.
If they linked teaming with ignore lists how would the OP ever find a team? He may not be an AFKer himself, but if he behaves the way he has in this thread when he's in the game then he's got to be on at least a couple hundred thousand ignore lists already.
Random queue pugs are probably the only way he can find teams, and realizing that is probably why he's against the solution. :cool:
That's what is great about the system.... there's no leaver penalties being imposed so it doesn't penalize people by them geting kicked from existing pugs, it only keeps people who you don't like from ever being in a pug with you, and could apply equally to elitist trolls, leechers, or people who talk funny.
So if those people who curse for the next 10 minutes when an optional is lost at that little new guy..... is it really a bad thing for them to have to spend hours upon hours waiting in a queue line to a estf pug? It will give them a chance to learn patience.
wow. Calling EVERY science captain and build completely incompetent. :eek: WOW. I mean WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW. What a piece of work you are...! I thought tacticians et al toned down the spewing of propaganda about the science-class. Apparently I was wrong. :mad:
Yeah, that's totally what I meant. All Science captains and builds (including my 2) are completely incompetent. :rolleyes:
I'll clarify, I suppose the problem is partially my fault for not spelling out what I meant as much as it is yours for jumping on an off the cuff remark as if I personally insulted your mother.
As you well know, because you're a super-pro player that can win hypothetical matches against people about whom he knows nothing, the current STFs are heavily DPS-centric. They basically amount to "Do X damage in 15 minutes". You should also know that good chunk of Sci powers, especially the control powers, are ineffective in STFs. Viral Matrix the Transwarp Gate in ISE. See what effect that has. Even the old staple of Grav Well is now powerless in the face of rampant EptE spamming (although hopefully the changes incoming will make it useful again).
Now, if you take an average player, not a supreme Tier 1 operator such as yourself, you can safely assume that it's easier and far cheaper for them to put together an Escort, Carrier or Cruiser (in that order) that can do the necessary damage than it is for them to put together a Sci that can. Your wonderous ships that'd completely ruin my day: How much lockbox gear, high tier rep gear, expensive DOffs or stuff that is otherwise costly do they have? The most effective Sci ship I ever put together has a lot of that stuff, and wouldn't function properly without it. I'd have to change the build. Meanwhile, if I dropped all my fleet gear and expensive Doffs from my Escorts, I'd lose about a tenth of my DPS and some survivability, but the build would still work, and most of the time I wouldn't even notice the drop in PvE.
That's why I'm suggesting that if you took 4 average Joes from the game who are in Scis, who may not have all that junk, and may not know how to use it properly even if they did, they shouldn't expect to get the optionals in the same way 4 average Escorts should. Note also that I used the word "should", not "can". Escorts are also stupidly easy to put together compared to Scis, and unfortunately are just plain out more effective on average. Hell a basic EptW/EptS cycling Cruiser with nothing in the way of fancy toys will probably do better in an STF, and be easier to create and fly than most budget Sci builds.
4 copies of you in Science ships wouldn't struggle. Hell, 4 copies of me in Science probably wouldn't struggle. But 4 average Joes who drop in and out the game and aren't concerned with furiously grinding for that Nukara Particle Generator? I could see it being a problem for some, tbh.
tekehd you seem to have a unhealthy obsession with newbs and elitist trolls,the thread was to determine how we can stop leeches ( that is those that just sit there not doing anything) from taking rewards for nothing!
Elitist and newbs take part so as i keep saying why would anybody in a normal and sane mind just kick others for taking part?
You are making a case for a free for all boot frenzy????????
Still utter nonsense!
tekehd you seem to have a unhealthy obsession with newbs and elitist trolls,the thread was to determine how we can stop leeches ( that is those that just sit there not doing anything) from taking rewards for nothing!
Elitist and newbs take part so as i keep saying why would anybody in a normal and sane mind just kick others for taking part?
You are making a case for a free for all boot frenzy????????
Still utter nonsense!
I was making a comment about another system, noting about making a case for a free for all boot frenzy.... the other proposal had no booting involved... merely a way to prevent being queued with certain people in pugs via the ignore feature.... you place a leecher on ignore for example and then you never get put in the same team with them in a pug.
to your comments why rihannsu:Utter rubbish to all 7 points,off the cuff comments and no basses for points cos:
(1)How is anybody going to remember all name handles (point 4)
(2)As long as they take part why would anybody just kick when not all other players might not agree in game with your comment (1) above
(3)Comment 2 is over the top thats just picking a straws!
(4)Point 3 you made,well life is too short just move on to anther fleet that suits your needs or go solo.
(5)Comment 6 is just simply petty cos of it's counter productive and it makes it harder for them and could cause all other just to leave the STF and then your on your own lol.
(6)People only get griefing cos there is no team work.
(7)Elitism is just frankly not even a reason.
And last is iam not on any ignore list thank you
Fairplay tekehd but your ignore list would be longer than a criminals offender list on thanks giving lol
My ignore list woundn't be that long, even now it's got maybe 10 people on it.... you have to be a real ******* to get on my ignore list.... mostly keep it limited to people who intentionally do ****ty things, like harrass people in game, or those that go on their endless rants in chat when someone costs an optional.
I can't see the problem here.
Leechers are annoying, but all that troll-boot options are to be abused just as much.
You know there are a simple button-click on your mouse allowing something like a report a player option popping up! Use it... I have been using it for those leechers I know haven't been called back to real life. And those can be counted on one hand.
Just roll with it. Leeching are a part of all online games where rewards are handed to all participants regardless of any contribution.
tekehd:Yes but from the start i was only that's (ONLY) talking about leeches not newbs not elite trolls or anything else just leeches that sit there watching sucking all players of rewards whether on an ignore list or not it doesn't stop them only to that person that puts them on ignore which they will find a way round.
tekehd you seem to have a unhealthy obsession with newbs and elitist trolls,the thread was to determine how we can stop leeches ( that is those that just sit there not doing anything) from taking rewards for nothing!
Elitist and newbs take part so as i keep saying why would anybody in a normal and sane mind just kick others for taking part?
You are making a case for a free for all boot frenzy????????
Still utter nonsense!
"WE" can't stop anybody from doing this.
That is entirely up to Cryptic.
And it's very obvious that They, don't wish to implement any of the suggestions folks have posted.
Perhaps it's time to learn to use the few options They have given us and move on.
<shrug>
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
tekehd:its a sort of cheating and should be made so like same as hacks cheats e.c.t.
"Sort of" is like Close...
... and Close is only useful with Horseshoes and Hand-grenades...
Neither of which has anything to do with this subject.
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Daveyny:And in the meantime what then?????
we will be in the same position in 6 months time with the same discussion and the fun being zapped out the game cos the needs of the few (leeches) far out weigh the needs of the many (other players)in keeping this great game fair and fun
daveyny:Cheating is cheating like a white lie is still a lie so sort of is good enough cos that better than not and i don't understand what this troll word means?
Enlighten me!
TOS actually covers leeching like any other TOS would for public games.
10. User conduct.
Read through it and you'll find several areas where behavior like leeching actual are in violacition of the TOS.
Here I mostly points to (n)
10.
LOL LOL i'am so surprised to be labelled a troll even though i know i'am not lol,a discussion is a discussion and if that involves people that won't let reason and common sense win out then so be it,if in doubt call somebody a troll lol everyone has freedom of speech and i glad i flagged up this problem like other did past that has been going on for so long and frankly STO is refusing to acknowledge plus the reason people call others trolls is cos they are frustrated they don't get heard and are disappointed with the game and are frightened that if STO bring this boot icon that there is going to be mass panic of booting everyone!
What a joke! I'am in favour of a boot icon with balance.
It's a known issue with a known solution - ANY solution to deal with leechers is inevitably worse than the problem itself.
* A time gated auto-kick is a no-go as some STFs can be finished <5 mins;
* An inactive auto-kick (get kicked if not moving) will be dealt with by simply moving fwd and backward a meter;
* A vote-kick is just another tool for idiots to be abused.
* Can't (auto) kick a player if all he does is fly around and not shoot.
Best solutions: don't PUG - Cryptic invented fleets for a reason. Join EliteSTF channel for serious players.
Warp out and restart your Pug STF; it may be annoying, but it's less annoying than having a leecher.
Also, sometimes players are AFK in STFs because Real Life butts in. It's hard to tell.
wait.....
how can a vote kick be abused?
that's 4 out of 5 players voting to kick someone...that's the majority....I am sorry but I don't agree with your flawed idiotic logic there.
The only abuse that might get is if people only want to play with certain people.
And if that's the case...then the simple fix is to make the game either allow it....or to make the entire thing restart back in the que.
And to prevent the constant afk thing players should be able to put a message down as to why they vote kicked the person with the name of the account from the person who said it....that stays with that account...for 24 hours....not the character but the actual account...that will teach people a lesson to not be idiots and play the game.
And also if no one wants to say anything....the vote from that person doesn't apply.
Oh yes...this might allow people to make things up on people they don't like...yeah but if others can look it up and see who says what...then that becomes a non-issue because then players can figure out who is abusing the system...and who isn't and kick all the idiots....black list the idiots abusing the system....the irony would be real funny.
And then the forums would have more posts from the dorks saying....."gee I don't understand why I was black listed...I only afked the stfs a few 100 times"
Which would give me a good laugh.
<this forum is silly it modified my post with the wrong post quote>
Power without Perception is Spiritually useless and therefore of no true value.
LOL LOL i'am so surprised to be labelled a troll even though i know i'am not lol,a discussion is a discussion and if that involves people that won't let reason and common sense win out then so be it,if in doubt call somebody a troll lol everyone has freedom of speech and i glad i flagged up this problem like other did past that has been going on for so long and frankly STO is refusing to acknowledge plus the reason people call others trolls is cos they are frustrated they don't get heard and are disappointed with the game and are frightened that if STO bring this boot icon that there is going to be mass panic of booting everyone!
What a joke! I'am in favour of a boot icon with balance.
Actually the true trolls are the one who pad their post counts, then after having enough of them, they then talk down to others on threads, usually calling them trolls or other labels.
And the reason they do this is because their own position is super weak and cannot stand debate.
ie they are like little children who plug their ears when they don't want to hear something, then run away like cowards and never have any proofs for their own position.
Some goes as far as to blacklist and block anyone with an opinion that differs from their own.
But that is the state of message forums.
Power without Perception is Spiritually useless and therefore of no true value.
tekehd:its a sort of cheating and should be made so like same as hacks cheats e.c.t.
There is a possibility that cryptic could shoe-horn it in under something like that, but they have not chosen to.
The AFK'er being present or not has little impact on the group overall, because a 4 person team working on a map has the same chance if they were a 5 person team with one leecher on the same map..... just dead weight.... my interaction with them is typically limited to a snide "were you planning on participating?" at some point hat does not interfere with the present objective.... and if that point never arises, oh well. It's not as if their reward on the map is coming out of your own.
Comments
How much zen are you betting?
Even that I could stomach better than a votekick w/ leaver penalty.
That's what is great about the system.... there's no leaver penalties being imposed so it doesn't penalize people by them geting kicked from existing pugs, it only keeps people who you don't like from ever being in a pug with you, and could apply equally to elitist trolls, leechers, or people who talk funny.
So if those people who curse for the next 10 minutes when an optional is lost at that little new guy..... is it really a bad thing for them to have to spend hours upon hours waiting in a queue line to a estf pug? It will give them a chance to learn patience.
Yeah, that's totally what I meant. All Science captains and builds (including my 2) are completely incompetent. :rolleyes:
I'll clarify, I suppose the problem is partially my fault for not spelling out what I meant as much as it is yours for jumping on an off the cuff remark as if I personally insulted your mother.
As you well know, because you're a super-pro player that can win hypothetical matches against people about whom he knows nothing, the current STFs are heavily DPS-centric. They basically amount to "Do X damage in 15 minutes". You should also know that good chunk of Sci powers, especially the control powers, are ineffective in STFs. Viral Matrix the Transwarp Gate in ISE. See what effect that has. Even the old staple of Grav Well is now powerless in the face of rampant EptE spamming (although hopefully the changes incoming will make it useful again).
Now, if you take an average player, not a supreme Tier 1 operator such as yourself, you can safely assume that it's easier and far cheaper for them to put together an Escort, Carrier or Cruiser (in that order) that can do the necessary damage than it is for them to put together a Sci that can. Your wonderous ships that'd completely ruin my day: How much lockbox gear, high tier rep gear, expensive DOffs or stuff that is otherwise costly do they have? The most effective Sci ship I ever put together has a lot of that stuff, and wouldn't function properly without it. I'd have to change the build. Meanwhile, if I dropped all my fleet gear and expensive Doffs from my Escorts, I'd lose about a tenth of my DPS and some survivability, but the build would still work, and most of the time I wouldn't even notice the drop in PvE.
That's why I'm suggesting that if you took 4 average Joes from the game who are in Scis, who may not have all that junk, and may not know how to use it properly even if they did, they shouldn't expect to get the optionals in the same way 4 average Escorts should. Note also that I used the word "should", not "can". Escorts are also stupidly easy to put together compared to Scis, and unfortunately are just plain out more effective on average. Hell a basic EptW/EptS cycling Cruiser with nothing in the way of fancy toys will probably do better in an STF, and be easier to create and fly than most budget Sci builds.
4 copies of you in Science ships wouldn't struggle. Hell, 4 copies of me in Science probably wouldn't struggle. But 4 average Joes who drop in and out the game and aren't concerned with furiously grinding for that Nukara Particle Generator? I could see it being a problem for some, tbh.
Elitist and newbs take part so as i keep saying why would anybody in a normal and sane mind just kick others for taking part?
You are making a case for a free for all boot frenzy????????
Still utter nonsense!
I was making a comment about another system, noting about making a case for a free for all boot frenzy.... the other proposal had no booting involved... merely a way to prevent being queued with certain people in pugs via the ignore feature.... you place a leecher on ignore for example and then you never get put in the same team with them in a pug.
(1)How is anybody going to remember all name handles (point 4)
(2)As long as they take part why would anybody just kick when not all other players might not agree in game with your comment (1) above
(3)Comment 2 is over the top thats just picking a straws!
(4)Point 3 you made,well life is too short just move on to anther fleet that suits your needs or go solo.
(5)Comment 6 is just simply petty cos of it's counter productive and it makes it harder for them and could cause all other just to leave the STF and then your on your own lol.
(6)People only get griefing cos there is no team work.
(7)Elitism is just frankly not even a reason.
And last is iam not on any ignore list thank you
My ignore list woundn't be that long, even now it's got maybe 10 people on it.... you have to be a real ******* to get on my ignore list.... mostly keep it limited to people who intentionally do ****ty things, like harrass people in game, or those that go on their endless rants in chat when someone costs an optional.
Leechers are annoying, but all that troll-boot options are to be abused just as much.
You know there are a simple button-click on your mouse allowing something like a report a player option popping up! Use it... I have been using it for those leechers I know haven't been called back to real life. And those can be counted on one hand.
Just roll with it. Leeching are a part of all online games where rewards are handed to all participants regardless of any contribution.
"WE" can't stop anybody from doing this.
That is entirely up to Cryptic.
And it's very obvious that They, don't wish to implement any of the suggestions folks have posted.
Perhaps it's time to learn to use the few options They have given us and move on.
<shrug>
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
"Sort of" is like Close...
... and Close is only useful with Horseshoes and Hand-grenades...
Neither of which has anything to do with this subject.
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
we will be in the same position in 6 months time with the same discussion and the fun being zapped out the game cos the needs of the few (leeches) far out weigh the needs of the many (other players)in keeping this great game fair and fun
Enlighten me!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet).
(Daveyny, is most probably not referring to a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll.)
I actually like Delta Rising.
10. User conduct.
Read through it and you'll find several areas where behavior like leeching actual are in violacition of the TOS.
Here I mostly points to (n)
10.
What a joke! I'am in favour of a boot icon with balance.
wait.....
how can a vote kick be abused?
that's 4 out of 5 players voting to kick someone...that's the majority....I am sorry but I don't agree with your flawed idiotic logic there.
The only abuse that might get is if people only want to play with certain people.
And if that's the case...then the simple fix is to make the game either allow it....or to make the entire thing restart back in the que.
And to prevent the constant afk thing players should be able to put a message down as to why they vote kicked the person with the name of the account from the person who said it....that stays with that account...for 24 hours....not the character but the actual account...that will teach people a lesson to not be idiots and play the game.
And also if no one wants to say anything....the vote from that person doesn't apply.
Oh yes...this might allow people to make things up on people they don't like...yeah but if others can look it up and see who says what...then that becomes a non-issue because then players can figure out who is abusing the system...and who isn't and kick all the idiots....black list the idiots abusing the system....the irony would be real funny.
And then the forums would have more posts from the dorks saying....."gee I don't understand why I was black listed...I only afked the stfs a few 100 times"
Which would give me a good laugh.
<this forum is silly it modified my post with the wrong post quote>
Power without Perception is Spiritually useless and therefore of no true value.
=^_^=
And magoo200, please stop talking. You're embarrassing yourself.
R.I.P. Leonard Nimoy
I said it at the start. Now I'm just commenting on the nonsense. :rolleyes:
R.I.P. Leonard Nimoy
Actually the true trolls are the one who pad their post counts, then after having enough of them, they then talk down to others on threads, usually calling them trolls or other labels.
And the reason they do this is because their own position is super weak and cannot stand debate.
ie they are like little children who plug their ears when they don't want to hear something, then run away like cowards and never have any proofs for their own position.
Some goes as far as to blacklist and block anyone with an opinion that differs from their own.
But that is the state of message forums.
Power without Perception is Spiritually useless and therefore of no true value.
=^_^=
There is a possibility that cryptic could shoe-horn it in under something like that, but they have not chosen to.
The AFK'er being present or not has little impact on the group overall, because a 4 person team working on a map has the same chance if they were a 5 person team with one leecher on the same map..... just dead weight.... my interaction with them is typically limited to a snide "were you planning on participating?" at some point hat does not interfere with the present objective.... and if that point never arises, oh well. It's not as if their reward on the map is coming out of your own.
Or wide beam.