I can certainly see an exception clause put in for the 'inactivity' thing with regards to LTSers. But they won't remove the 'for any reason or no reason' clause, weather for LTSers or otherwise.
---
Gowron Simmons is pleased to see you, yes!
Join Date: January 2010
Post Count: Who cares?
This reminds me of the beginning of the end of Tabula Rasa, except with lifetime subs. I am worried that all they have to do is close the game and laugh all the way to the bank. Hopefully this will not happen.
This reminds me of the beginning of the end of Tabula Rasa, except with lifetime subs. I am worried that all they have to do is close the game and laugh all the way to the bank. Hopefully this will not happen.
This reminds me of the beginning of the end of Tabula Rasa, except with lifetime subs. I am worried that all they have to do is close the game and laugh all the way to the bank. Hopefully this will not happen.
I'm thinkin' that Tabula Rasa and Star Trek Online are not quite in the same category of distinction, when it comes to the game ending...
It's not like TR had the same level of fan following.
Kind of a long stretch to compare the two.
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Other then the Cryptic titles are there any PWE titles that offer Lifetime Subs? I highly suspect that the terms are centered around the concept of F2P in which at some point they might decide to scrub old unused Free accounts, and really has no bearing on LTS accounts at all as those were non-existent to PWE at the point the terms were written, and the terms just need an update.
These are very standard terms overall, they aren't really worth getting worried about, just really a way for them to cover themselves.
Website forum access - one way or the other - has no bearing on my freedom to play a companies online game. This STO forum, for example, isn't the slightest bit necessary to play Star Trek Online. It's merely a fringe benefit. Much like most game companies so happen to make available. It isn't a requirement.
Honestly? So what if PWE closes my forum account for inactivity of over 12 months time? Clearly, the site wasn't that important to me. And I can start from scratch if I should have a change of heart.
(/\) Exploring Star Trek Online Since July 2008 (/\)
just wanted to add my tuppence and say that in my many years playing pwe games i don't recall anyone complaining about having their account deleted - some people went away from pwi for example for over a year and when they came back all their characters were as they left them. I think it would only be an issue if they ran into population problems and needed to free up database space.
PWE have never (and FrankieRaye CM over on PWI forum confirmed this) executed that clause as they have not reached a point in any of their games where they were forced to free up space. They have in the past added servers to spread the population. And Branflakes has indicated he will get confirmation but it is his understanding tha LIFE = LIFE of the game, so inactive or not those players would not be affected by this clause.
BUT if said LTS players breach other TOS rules then yes I am sure PWE/Cryptic are well within their rights (as agreed by said LTS when they signed the TOS) to remove service from that player.
Your Account may be deactivated if you do not use your Account within twelve months after the date that it was created or for any continuous period of twelve months after creation. If you do not use your Account for twelve or more months, it may be removed and deleted by the Website administrator at their sole discretion.
Seems to me that the part where it says "deleted by the Website administrator" indicates that they are speaking of the FORUMS, and not the GAME.
Besides, Lifetime Subscription or not . . . If you go without playing the game for more than 1 year, you either don't care anyway,are in prison (in which case,you should've considered this before you slappedthat old lady at McDonald's for putting tomatoes on your sandwich) or are dead (in which case,your LIFETIME is pretty much already over).
Goodnight everybody!
^_^
"Join Date: Jun 2012" Says Cryptic's "new" forum system. I've been here since a week before launch, but SOME stuff just didn't carry over through multiple system changes/updates. :rolleyes:
So Cryptic, did anyone in the CS / Legal teams utter the word "Yes" or "No" when asked if lifetime accounts in good standing can be terminated due to inactivity?
I would be a shame to be shipped off to Iraq for a year and come back to find all my toons deleted, especially considering I paid for a "lifetime" subscription to the game.
1. To those saying if you do not come back for a year, you probably do not care, that is hardly the case. While I have left games and never gone back and never will, I have also left games and come back after lengthy times away. I played SWG and left and came back several times. Some of those times exceeded a year between play times. I played EQ2 and left and came back a couple of times. At least one of those times exceeded three years of inactivity. I played this game at release and played for a few months, then I left and have only recently come back. I was gone for around two years. In the case of SWG and EQ2, I would not have gone back if I had to start over. In this case, one of my primary reasons for coming back was that I knew I had a lifetime account and my character would still be here.
2. All MMOs put in their TOS that they reserve the right to delete accounts/characters if you do not maintain an active account. They have to reserve this right because they have to be free to free up storage or free up names being tied up by accounts that are no longer being used (less of an issue in this game) if it becomes necessary to do so. It is also important to note that almost no MMO ever does this. It is a provision to give them the right to do so, but doing discourages people from coming back by forcing them to start over, and they don't want to discourage people from resubscribing or, in the case of F2P, coming back and buying more goodies/services.
3. Because it specifically says "it may be removed and deleted by the Website administrator at their sole discretion," it is fairly certain that this policy being quoted is referring to the website, not the game itself regardless of what other policies may be enforced.
4. Even if none of the above was true and they are talking about game accounts, they could only be talking about F2P and inactive month-to-month subscribers. These accounts are on a pay as you go basis, so you can justify deleting these accounts if a reasonable amount of time passes and it looks like they are not coming back. Not so for Lifetime accounts. With a Lifetime account, an agreement has been made to pay money up front for a non-expiring service agreement. That is, they have agreed to take a lump sum of money up front to pay for a guarantee that you will have accesss to your account and to your characters for as long as the game continues to run. They cannot suddenly and unilaterally change the terms of that agreement after the money has changed hands. They are legally obligated to maintain Lifetime accounts until the game servers close, and PWE inherited that obligation. The only exception is that they can terminate your account for cause, but inactivity cannot be a legally enforceable cause because the whole point of a lifetime account is that it will be there even if you choose not to play for an extended amount of time.
This is much ado about nothing. The text fairly clearly indicates it is referring to website accounts, not the game accounts. Even when referring to game accounts, it is a standard clause all MMOs include but almost never enforce. Finally, even if they chose to enforce it, they cannot do so for Lifetime accounts because it would violate the agreement made when the Lifetime account was purchased. Lifetime accounts cannot be deleted for inactivity because a lifetime account is deemed to be active whether someone is logging in or not. This is why lifetimers continue to get their monthly stipend, veteran rewards, and other activity bonuses even if they are not logging in for substantial periods of time. E.g., in 19 days, I will be eligible for the 900 day veteran rewards even though I have probably logged in for no more than a total of 5 months.
The quoted policy simply cannot apply to LTS accounts.
Rather than make assumptions which could be totally incorrect, I prefer to have an official statement which confirms that paid LTS accounts in good standing are or are not subject to deletion due to inactivity.
For those who keep thinking this is about forum access I recommend you read the TOS I have already linked in the OP.
From the TOS:
You may be required to create an account (an "Account") to access our Games and certain features and functions or our Service.
Note, it is not talking about just the forum account here, in fact I do not see the forum mentioned there at all.. But they do explicitly mention "Games". Now in that same section (4) is this:
Your Account may be deactivated if you do not use your Account within twelve months after the date that it was created or for any continuous period of twelve months after creation.
Note, again, nothing about just forum access (or any mention of the forums). It is talking about your "Account" which is used (per above) to access "Games".
So thank you to all the people who assume the PWE Terms Of Service apply only to a forum account, but if your assumption is wrong I doubt your "sorry my guess was wrong" would bring my toons back... Therefore an official statement is the only way to be sure in my book.
Hopefully PWE Branflakes will be able to get a single word out of the CS / Legal team to put this issue to rest.
Hopefully PWE Branflakes will be able to get a single word out of the CS / Legal team to put this issue to rest.
You won't, because ultimately it doesn't matter.
From PWI's Legal Agreement:
Please note that regardless of any notice, PWE reserves the right to discontinue the Service or to terminate or suspend your account at any time in its sole discretion for any reason, or for no reason.
From Blizzard's Legal Agreement:
BLIZZARD MAY SUSPEND, TERMINATE, MODIFY, OR DELETE ACCOUNTS AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON OR FOR NO REASON, WITH OR WITHOUT NOTICE TO YOU.
I'm really not going to bother hunting down other license agreements, but it's pretty much standard practice in some way, shape, or form, as has been stated elsewhere in this thread. Inactivity, rudeness, maybe the chief financial officer of PWE met you and doesn't like the color of your shirt.
In reality, these things practically never happen, but the conditions are in the legalese that you agree to just as a CYA measure for the company. If it really bothers you that much, the only recourse would probably be to pretty much stop using any service that requires the creation of an account.
But with Branflakes stating Lifetime is a Lifetime, I trust that PW will adjust their terms to reflect that.
I do not agree with this statement at all. PWE has no incentive to change this as it gives them wide discretion to take action regardless of account types.
And requesting an official word from Branflakes is pointless. Until the ToS actually changes whatever he says is meaningless and overruled by your acceptance of the agreement anyway.
Kobayashi Maru
Join Date: Sept 2008
"Holographic tissue paper for the holographic runny nose. Don't give them to patients." - The Doctor
Regardless of that the TOS/Eula says. The purchase of a Lifetime Subscription to a game adds to the agreement. They cannot just arbitrarily just delete the account with a Lifetime Subscription. Otherwise they PWE/Cryptic would be in breach of contract.
I do not agree with this statement at all. PWE has no incentive to change this as it gives them wide discretion to take action regardless of account types.
And requesting an official word from Branflakes is pointless. Until the ToS actually changes whatever he says is meaningless and overruled by your acceptance of the agreement anyway.
"Standard" does not equal 'legally binding."
Short of shutting STO down entirely, it is unlikely that clause would hold up without PWE being able to prove the LTS'er was misusing the account somehow (hacking, for example).
I don;t recall this being mentioned in this thread but they have archived accounts and characters previously with about a year of inactivity. It takes a support ticket to get them pulled out of the archives.
I don;t recall anyone mentioning this not working previously....
I'd like to point out I played JD waaaay back between games, sometime around august 2009 or earlier (judging by achievements). I haven't logged into the game since and all my characters/items/zen were still present and accounted for when I went to merge my cryptic and PWE accounts.
So I wouldn't be worried about losing your STO account over inactivity.
Regardless of that the TOS/Eula says. The purchase of a Lifetime Subscription to a game adds to the agreement. They cannot just arbitrarily just delete the account with a Lifetime Subscription. Otherwise they PWE/Cryptic would be in breach of contract.
It's not a breach of contract if your purchase involved you to acknowledging the ToS. Which is exactly what you did when you created your account.
This reminds me of a case I was involved in a few years back. A tenant had to clauses in his contract, one stating the landlord can enter the apartment and another saying he couldn?t. Later a court ruled the landlord had full rights to enter per the contract, and the whole section stating he couldn?t was voided. Later, I spoke with the plantiff's lawyer who said these come up every once in a while, and the chance of getting a favourable ruling is about 50/50 depending on the situation. So I would advise you not to jump to conclusions too quickly, context will matter if this is ever tested.
Kobayashi Maru
Join Date: Sept 2008
"Holographic tissue paper for the holographic runny nose. Don't give them to patients." - The Doctor
Thank you for bringing this up -- the Customer Service team will look into it. But, Lifetime means Lifetime (unless you are breaking the ToS and/ or EULA -- inactivity does not fall into a Lifetime account purview).
Cheers,
Brandon =/\=
Has there been any communication from the CS team on this issue in the last 6 days? Perhaps you need to send an e-mail again?
Thank you for bringing this up -- the Customer Service team will look into it. But, Lifetime means Lifetime (unless you are breaking the ToS and/ or EULA -- inactivity does not fall into a Lifetime account purview).
Cheers,
Brandon =/\=
Has there been any update from the CS team in the last 10 days?
Thank you for bringing this up -- the Customer Service team will look into it. But, Lifetime means Lifetime (unless you are breaking the ToS and/ or EULA -- inactivity does not fall into a Lifetime account purview).
Comments
Gowron Simmons is pleased to see you, yes!
Join Date: January 2010
Post Count: Who cares?
But with Branflakes stating Lifetime is a Lifetime, I trust that PW will adjust their terms to reflect that.
You take their word for it?
Mention not, that here.
I'm thinkin' that Tabula Rasa and Star Trek Online are not quite in the same category of distinction, when it comes to the game ending...
It's not like TR had the same level of fan following.
Kind of a long stretch to compare the two.
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
These are very standard terms overall, they aren't really worth getting worried about, just really a way for them to cover themselves.
Honestly? So what if PWE closes my forum account for inactivity of over 12 months time? Clearly, the site wasn't that important to me. And I can start from scratch if I should have a change of heart.
@Liath | My PRIMUS Page | Altaholics | New Vehicle Models | New Emblems | Flag Tights
Asterelle's Forum Enhancement Extension | Game Side Panel Add-In* | Game Server Status Add-In
*Updated to work on Embedded/Non embedded forums post August 2015 Changes
Only their families and people trying to look good on TV.
Anyway, I can't see it being enforced for lifers. F2P? After twelve months away you'd get the joy of discovery one more time.
If the CS / Legal Team is in the US they are almost half way through.
So what is the answer from these folks?
Can an LTS in good standing be cancelled due to inactivity or not?
BUT if said LTS players breach other TOS rules then yes I am sure PWE/Cryptic are well within their rights (as agreed by said LTS when they signed the TOS) to remove service from that player.
@Liath | My PRIMUS Page | Altaholics | New Vehicle Models | New Emblems | Flag Tights
Asterelle's Forum Enhancement Extension | Game Side Panel Add-In* | Game Server Status Add-In
*Updated to work on Embedded/Non embedded forums post August 2015 Changes
Seems to me that the part where it says "deleted by the Website administrator" indicates that they are speaking of the FORUMS, and not the GAME.
Besides, Lifetime Subscription or not . . . If you go without playing the game for more than 1 year, you either don't care anyway,are in prison (in which case,you should've considered this before you slappedthat old lady at McDonald's for putting tomatoes on your sandwich) or are dead (in which case,your LIFETIME is pretty much already over).
Goodnight everybody!
^_^
I would be a shame to be shipped off to Iraq for a year and come back to find all my toons deleted, especially considering I paid for a "lifetime" subscription to the game.
2. All MMOs put in their TOS that they reserve the right to delete accounts/characters if you do not maintain an active account. They have to reserve this right because they have to be free to free up storage or free up names being tied up by accounts that are no longer being used (less of an issue in this game) if it becomes necessary to do so. It is also important to note that almost no MMO ever does this. It is a provision to give them the right to do so, but doing discourages people from coming back by forcing them to start over, and they don't want to discourage people from resubscribing or, in the case of F2P, coming back and buying more goodies/services.
3. Because it specifically says "it may be removed and deleted by the Website administrator at their sole discretion," it is fairly certain that this policy being quoted is referring to the website, not the game itself regardless of what other policies may be enforced.
4. Even if none of the above was true and they are talking about game accounts, they could only be talking about F2P and inactive month-to-month subscribers. These accounts are on a pay as you go basis, so you can justify deleting these accounts if a reasonable amount of time passes and it looks like they are not coming back. Not so for Lifetime accounts. With a Lifetime account, an agreement has been made to pay money up front for a non-expiring service agreement. That is, they have agreed to take a lump sum of money up front to pay for a guarantee that you will have accesss to your account and to your characters for as long as the game continues to run. They cannot suddenly and unilaterally change the terms of that agreement after the money has changed hands. They are legally obligated to maintain Lifetime accounts until the game servers close, and PWE inherited that obligation. The only exception is that they can terminate your account for cause, but inactivity cannot be a legally enforceable cause because the whole point of a lifetime account is that it will be there even if you choose not to play for an extended amount of time.
This is much ado about nothing. The text fairly clearly indicates it is referring to website accounts, not the game accounts. Even when referring to game accounts, it is a standard clause all MMOs include but almost never enforce. Finally, even if they chose to enforce it, they cannot do so for Lifetime accounts because it would violate the agreement made when the Lifetime account was purchased. Lifetime accounts cannot be deleted for inactivity because a lifetime account is deemed to be active whether someone is logging in or not. This is why lifetimers continue to get their monthly stipend, veteran rewards, and other activity bonuses even if they are not logging in for substantial periods of time. E.g., in 19 days, I will be eligible for the 900 day veteran rewards even though I have probably logged in for no more than a total of 5 months.
The quoted policy simply cannot apply to LTS accounts.
For those who keep thinking this is about forum access I recommend you read the TOS I have already linked in the OP.
From the TOS:
You may be required to create an account (an "Account") to access our Games and certain features and functions or our Service.
Note, it is not talking about just the forum account here, in fact I do not see the forum mentioned there at all.. But they do explicitly mention "Games". Now in that same section (4) is this:
Your Account may be deactivated if you do not use your Account within twelve months after the date that it was created or for any continuous period of twelve months after creation.
Note, again, nothing about just forum access (or any mention of the forums). It is talking about your "Account" which is used (per above) to access "Games".
So thank you to all the people who assume the PWE Terms Of Service apply only to a forum account, but if your assumption is wrong I doubt your "sorry my guess was wrong" would bring my toons back... Therefore an official statement is the only way to be sure in my book.
Hopefully PWE Branflakes will be able to get a single word out of the CS / Legal team to put this issue to rest.
You won't, because ultimately it doesn't matter.
From PWI's Legal Agreement:
From Blizzard's Legal Agreement:
I'm really not going to bother hunting down other license agreements, but it's pretty much standard practice in some way, shape, or form, as has been stated elsewhere in this thread. Inactivity, rudeness, maybe the chief financial officer of PWE met you and doesn't like the color of your shirt.
In reality, these things practically never happen, but the conditions are in the legalese that you agree to just as a CYA measure for the company. If it really bothers you that much, the only recourse would probably be to pretty much stop using any service that requires the creation of an account.
I do not agree with this statement at all. PWE has no incentive to change this as it gives them wide discretion to take action regardless of account types.
And requesting an official word from Branflakes is pointless. Until the ToS actually changes whatever he says is meaningless and overruled by your acceptance of the agreement anyway.
Join Date: Sept 2008
"Holographic tissue paper for the holographic runny nose. Don't give them to patients." - The Doctor
tos@perfectworldinc.com
"Standard" does not equal 'legally binding."
Short of shutting STO down entirely, it is unlikely that clause would hold up without PWE being able to prove the LTS'er was misusing the account somehow (hacking, for example).
I don;t recall anyone mentioning this not working previously....
So I wouldn't be worried about losing your STO account over inactivity.
Join Date: Sep 2008
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: CHANGE THE FORUMS BACK !!!
It's not a breach of contract if your purchase involved you to acknowledging the ToS. Which is exactly what you did when you created your account.
This reminds me of a case I was involved in a few years back. A tenant had to clauses in his contract, one stating the landlord can enter the apartment and another saying he couldn?t. Later a court ruled the landlord had full rights to enter per the contract, and the whole section stating he couldn?t was voided. Later, I spoke with the plantiff's lawyer who said these come up every once in a while, and the chance of getting a favourable ruling is about 50/50 depending on the situation. So I would advise you not to jump to conclusions too quickly, context will matter if this is ever tested.
Join Date: Sept 2008
"Holographic tissue paper for the holographic runny nose. Don't give them to patients." - The Doctor
Has there been any communication from the CS team on this issue in the last 6 days? Perhaps you need to send an e-mail again?
Has there been any update from the CS team in the last 10 days?
Does stipend delivery count as activity for these purposes?
So, I don't login but there is account activity because a stipend is being issued.
pwebranflakes,
It has been 13 days since your post above.
Has there been any update from the CS team?
Thank you.