We don't know what happened with the transwarp drive, but the fact that the Excelsior had one and the RC did not means the Excelsior was "better" in at least that small way.
Well, since it was never seen again in the series, I guess that it was either an improvement to the warp drive that was later put onto the Connie, or it failed, it might have been "better" before, but if it did work then the Connie was probably refitted with it, and if not it was given the same warp drive as the Connie.
As I told Matt, we don't know enough about the Ambassador or that time period to speculate intelligently.
As I told you, the Ambassador is OBVIOUSLY the next step in the "Enterprise" design lineage, and since all the Enterprises were designed to be explorers, I guess that its logical to assume that the Ambassador was in fact an explorer too. Also, since it comes later, it probably had more advanced systems, but due to its design similarities to the Excelsior, it uses the same basic principle. Those are assumptions, but they are logical assumptions.
That's a flawed argument. We know Jesus had an early life because we know he had a late life. And as far as Jesus, mostly we just have a gap between his birth and his late 20s, provided you ignore the agnostic gospels that cover much of that period.
With the RC, it's the opposite. We know all about its early life and we know nothing about what happened to it after ST6. What we do know is that it is not once seen on screen again in service after ST6, while all its counterparts were. We know that at the end of ST6, they're ordered to be decommissioned, and we know that the Excelsior was a ship that at least started with a similar role to the RC and it survived to TNG. All of those things suggest that the RC went out of service, and nothing currently suggests that it didn't.
Except the fact that there was a Connie at Wolf 359, and there was no direct list of ships being decommissioned AND that no one in ST6 said that the Connie was specifically being decommissioned, the only Constitution-Class vessel that was even POSSIBLY decommissioned was the Enterprise, and that can be called into question.
Not ignoring it, dismissing it as contradictory to the main canon and pretty much irrelevant. There is no reason to expect Starfleet to build "new" versions of ancient designs for funsies like Cryptic has them doing to satisfy gamers who don't want to live in the 25th century. Further, the existence of Excalibur and Vesper still don't really give us any indication what happened with the RC, only that at some later point they wanted a ship that looked like it.
And also the fact that the Connie in BOTH configurations are ingame along with the Excalibur and Vesper. So in the game's canon, the Connie is still in service. Basically, dismissing something is ignoring it, and again there is no direct proof on screen stating that the Connie was decommissioned. Find me that and I'll agree with you. And is has to have the word "Constitution" in the sentence.
That would defeat your argument that they had different roles. If they're pretty much the same ship and the Excelsior is the newer version that can actually house a transwarp drive which may or may not have worked ultimately (the one in STIII didn't work because Scotty sabotaged it), then why do you build them both?
Actually, they are not, that's like saying that the Galaxy (based on the Constitution) is the same as the Sovereign (based on the Excelsior). Starfleet hasn't been shown to be logical, as even when the Sovereign was introduced during the early years of the Dominion War, there where still Galaxies being built. The Sovereign-class was designed to fight the Borg, while the Galaxies were refitted for the War, why waste their time when they could build ships that was naturally tactically superior?
Books introduce lots of concepts and contradict each other too often to really be a factor. There was always the possibility that all the Miranda's are some kind of refit too, but the fact that they weren't called Refit-Miranda class pretty much debunks that idea.
This contradicts your argument about "Captain's Glory"
No, they share parts, not design lineage. The Miranda is a fundamentally different design than the RC. And again, if the Miranda's role was as we saw in Star Trek II, to wander around doing grunt work, it would still have a place. If the RC's role is, as we expect, a battlecruiser and long-term explorer, and the Excelsior fills that role, you don't need the RC anymore.
Well, we don't know that much about the Miranda, every ship has been shown to do grunt work, the Enterprise, the top-of-the-line best ship in the fleet was assigned for training duty.
Further, the RC is going to be an artifact from the previous Klingon/Fed hostilities. It would be possible and very likely that they would be reduced in number and/or phased out as part of the peace process, kind of like reducing your nuclear stockpile.
This is what I can agree on, but that doesn't mean that is was fully decommissioned. It as reduced, but not gone.
There's no reason to assume that. You're going to, at the very least, need a larger crew for the RC and that means wasting personnel on grunt work who did not have to be wasted.
Well, we don't know the Miranda's function, could it be grunt work, yes, but it could also be an explorer.
At least those ship classes were mentioned. The closest thing to a mention the RC got was Picard's line that the only TOSC he had ever seen was in a museum. The wreckage only indicates something that bears a resemblance to an RC existed, but not in what capacity. It could've been a passing freighter that got caught in the firefight for all we know. There is no evidence of Starfleet using them in service.
I think that most freighters would stay out of the area, and that Starfleet probably told them to stay away too. There also are NO other ships in the wreckage of Wolf-359 that even look like a freighter. There's an old saying, it it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, its a duck. Unless there is any dialogue that states that it is not a Constitution, then it is a Constitution. It should also be noted that the model is the destroyed Enterprise from Star Trek III.
It doesn't matter why the producers didn't show it. There is no evidence to suggest it is or was still in service. I've already discussed why the Miranda would be in service and the RC wouldn't.
And there is no direct evidence stating that is wasn't. Again, find me hard evidence that it wasn't there, and I'll believe you.
Well, since it was never seen again in the series, I guess that it was either an improvement to the warp drive that was later put onto the Connie, or it failed, it might have been "better" before, but if it did work then the Connie was probably refitted with it, and if not it was given the same warp drive as the Connie.
All baseless conjecture. There is no way to know what happened to it. For all we know it worked fabulously and could never fit in the RC, only to be replaced again later. So the only thing we have to go on is how it compared in ST III.
As I told you, the Ambassador is OBVIOUSLY the next step in the "Enterprise" design lineage, and since all the Enterprises were designed to be explorers, I guess that its logical to assume that the Ambassador was in fact an explorer too. Also, since it comes later, it probably had more advanced systems, but due to its design similarities to the Excelsior, it uses the same basic principle. Those are assumptions, but they are logical assumptions.
How is anything obvious about the Ambassador? We saw exactly one of them for one episode. We know nothing about that ship or when it was launched or why. We know virtually nothing about that time period in Star Trek because it skipped right to TNG and never bothered to fill in the details.
Except the fact that there was a Connie at Wolf 359, and there was no direct list of ships being decommissioned AND that no one in ST6 said that the Connie was specifically being decommissioned, the only Constitution-Class vessel that was even POSSIBLY decommissioned was the Enterprise, and that can be called into question.
We can't know anything about a piece of debris @ Wolf 359. It could've easily been a ship that only looked like one. Nobody says "oh look, there's an old RC class ship" when they show up there. By your own standard of saying somebody has to actually make a statement about the RC specifically, it counts for nothing.
And also the fact that the Connie in BOTH configurations are ingame along with the Excalibur and Vesper. So in the game's canon, the Connie is still in service. Basically, dismissing something is ignoring it, and again there is no direct proof on screen stating that the Connie was decommissioned. Find me that and I'll agree with you. And is has to have the word "Constitution" in the sentence.
When the game's canon doesn't fit in with what we know about Starfleet, the real canon wins out. Dismissing is not ignoring. Ignoring means I don't even acknowledge it. I acknowledge it and say "weighed against real canon evidence, it should not be so."
As for the rest, again, go back to my statement about "knowing." If you want to jump through hoops and pretend that the RC stayed in service even though none of them were ever seen again, you're welcome to that belief.
Actually, they are not, that's like saying that the Galaxy (based on the Constitution) is the same as the Sovereign (based on the Excelsior). Starfleet hasn't been shown to be logical, as even when the Sovereign was introduced during the early years of the Dominion War, there where still Galaxies being built. The Sovereign-class was designed to fight the Borg, while the Galaxies were refitted for the War, why waste their time when they could build ships that was naturally tactically superior?
Matt believes they were the same. So if you think they're not, you need to argue with him on that one.
The Sovereign was brand new during the war. They would obviously have to take the time to refit the shipyards to begin producing the ship and that takes time and it means stopping production while you do it which is difficult to do in the middle of a war you are losing. The war was probably over by the time the Sovereigns got into full production.
Even the Excelsior taking the RC's spot would've presumably taken time. It was two movies before the original Excelsior was out on missions.
This contradicts your argument about "Captain's Glory"
Not at all, because my argument isn't about Captain's Glory, it's about Shatner's interpretation of the line he spoke. It's the closest thing to him being quoted saying "the Enterprise was decommissioned."
Well, we don't know that much about the Miranda, every ship has been shown to do grunt work, the Enterprise, the top-of-the-line best ship in the fleet was assigned for training duty.
Well, we don't know the Miranda's function, could it be grunt work, yes, but it could also be an explorer.
That's not the grunt work I'm talking about. The Miranda we see is given the task of flying around the Federation scanning planets for Dr. Marcus. Not exactly the thing assigned to your combat patrol ships or your long-term exploration vessels.
And, presumably the Enterprise is on training duty because she isn't the top of the line best ship at that point. The Admiral scoffing at her age in STIII lends itself pretty well to that also.
I think that most freighters would stay out of the area, and that Starfleet probably told them to stay away too. There also are NO other ships in the wreckage of Wolf-359 that even look like a freighter. There's an old saying, it it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, its a duck. Unless there is any dialogue that states that it is not a Constitution, then it is a Constitution. It should also be noted that the model is the destroyed Enterprise from Star Trek III.
Except it isn't walking or quacking. It's a piece of debris.
And there is no direct evidence stating that is wasn't. Again, find me hard evidence that it wasn't there, and I'll believe you.
Again, go back to my explanation on "knowing." You're asking me to prove a negative. I'm asking you to prove a positive. Prove to me the ship remained in service. The only thing that could even suggest that it continued in service is one piece of background debris.
Meanwhile, everything else we've seen suggests that it was not in service.
Ok so the TOS Bundle was just released. I'm loving the whole thing, but I want to be able to do missions and STF's in a ship that matches the interior e.g. The TOS Constitution-Class. Now I know people are going to say that a Connie isnt that powerful and yada yada, but you just release a major pack full of uniforms, an accurate and working interior, a shuttle craft...but the only ship we have to match it is a T1 Connie.
Did someone forget to put it on the C too? Give the people what they want: Make a CDR and RA/VA version of the ship. Add more weapon hardpoints, more console slots like you did with the Galaxy-X, and get it out there! I have an amazing bridge, costumes, weapons from the devidian series, a shuttle, but no ship I can fly that wont blow up in a nano-second. Im flying a T5 Excelsior which coincidentally is the closest T5 ship near the TOS/TMP timeline. Dont leave us hangin here. Please, update the T1 Connie and let us RA/VA's enjoy it too!
I am fairly sure this will be more then possible in the future. STO is talking about making a new Crafting system where you take old ships like the T1 Connie, Miranda, Akeria, And Connie Retro fit (TMP series enterprise) and being able to use samples, and various materials and upgrading and refiting them so you can have what ever ship you want improved from tier 1, to tier 6.
So I would push for this crafting system instead of a new tier 5 ship in the C-store, this will save RL money, and all you need is samples and materials to get your tier 5 ship of the class you like and want.
All baseless conjecture. There is no way to know what happened to it. For all we know it worked fabulously and could never fit in the RC, only to be replaced again later. So the only thing we have to go on is how it compared in ST III.
All Federation Starships use the same principles, and I would think that because this was a very important system they would have made it so that it could be used in all ships of the fleet.
How is anything obvious about the Ambassador? We saw exactly one of them for one episode. We know nothing about that ship or when it was launched or why. We know virtually nothing about that time period in Star Trek because it skipped right to TNG and never bothered to fill in the details.
Actually, we saw them for four, don't believe me, look at this. Well, as far as I know there where no major conflicts to 2311. The Galaxy was at peace until the 2344 when the Battle of Narendra III took place, I would think that because of 30 years of peace the ship would be based more on Exploration rather than Combat, as seen with the Galaxy-Class.
We can't know anything about a piece of debris @ Wolf 359. It could've easily been a ship that only looked like one. Nobody says "oh look, there's an old RC class ship" when they show up there. By your own standard of saying somebody has to actually make a statement about the RC specifically, it counts for nothing.
Well, I actually do have proof. The model is the Constitution, it was the same model used for the Enterprise, and many Star Trek fans agree with me because if they didn't, they would have changed memory Alpha saying it was some "unknown ship".
When the game's canon doesn't fit in with what we know about Starfleet, the real canon wins out. Dismissing is not ignoring. Ignoring means I don't even acknowledge it. I acknowledge it and say "weighed against real canon evidence, it should not be so."
Not from what I've read. What I'm saying is that there is no proof saying that the Constitution-class was decommissioned, thus the only canon we have is the game, meaning that in the game the Connie was not decommissioned and is still in service.
As for the rest, again, go back to my statement about "knowing." If you want to jump through hoops and pretend that the RC stayed in service even though none of them were ever seen again, you're welcome to that belief.
Even though there was a Connie in Wolf 359. How many times are you going to ignore that? And until I see anything that says that was not a Connie I'm going to continue believing that.
The Sovereign was brand new during the war. They would obviously have to take the time to refit the shipyards to begin producing the ship and that takes time and it means stopping production while you do it which is difficult to do in the middle of a war you are losing. The war was probably over by the time the Sovereigns got into full production
Even the Excelsior taking the RC's spot would've presumably taken time. It was two movies before the original Excelsior was out on missions..
Actually, the Sovereign seems to be able to fit into a standard shipyard, so I think that they wouldn't need that much time to be able to refit. But I'm saying that it wasn't Logical that they were still building Galaxies even though they had a much better ship ready, the Galaxy was a LOT harder to build than the Sovereign, so it would have taken less time.
Not at all, because my argument isn't about Captain's Glory, it's about Shatner's interpretation of the line he spoke. It's the closest thing to him being quoted saying "the Enterprise was decommissioned."
He is neither the President of CBS or Gene Roddenberry, I could care less about what he personally thinks happened.
That's not the grunt work I'm talking about. The Miranda we see is given the task of flying around the Federation scanning planets for Dr. Marcus. Not exactly the thing assigned to your combat patrol ships or your long-term exploration vessels.
I'm thinking that they could have used any ship to do that. Now, there was another ship, the USS Saratoga , that was patrolling the Neutral Zone, that is something for more of a combat patrol ship.
And, presumably the Enterprise is on training duty because she isn't the top of the line best ship at that point. The Admiral scoffing at her age in STIII lends itself pretty well to that also.
Again, go back to my explanation on "knowing." You're asking me to prove a negative. I'm asking you to prove a positive. Prove to me the ship remained in service. The only thing that could even suggest that it continued in service is one piece of background debris.
Meanwhile, everything else we've seen suggests that it was not in service.
You must also take into account game canon, saying that the Connie is still going strong. And as I explained above, there is no canon specifically stating it was decommissioned, but since ingame canon is just as important as hard canon, that means the Connie is still going, and what I would consider a big positive. And there's a piece of background debris.
1) Odd to see this alive in the C-Store and Promotions forum. I see a larger picture for this topic than as something to sell.
2) All this discussion about what the Excelsior represents in contrast to the Constitution-classes is interesting. As far as I know, Excelsior herself was merely a testbed for the earliest transwarp experiments. Very little else about her purpose was ever explained. Back in the day we fans speculated she was, indeed, intended for a different role than the Constitutions. As the model was larger, better armed (beam-wise) and was hoped to travel more quickly, it was assumed she was a battleship. Though this never panned out come Star Trek VI.
3) As revisionist history (ie. Enterprise TV show) confirms, the name Enterprise was not exclusive to the Constitution-class. The fact that the name was carried forward to an Excelsior - and future classes - doesn't really mean anything one way or the other about the fate of ship class which previously carried the name. Only the individual starship. No TV show or film ever interpreted the phasing out or de-commissioning of an entire class. So we don't really know anything one way or the other as to the process in this fictional setting.
4) I think its stretching it to assume the entire class of Constitutions were de-commissioned based purely upon the fate of the Enterprise-A. It was only one starship. Production-wise, the TV shows and films merely wanted a fresh spin for presentation. Hence, newer models and less opportunity - or interest - to display the Constitution. Producer's choice is not necessarily something to translate into what our fictional Starfleet thought.
All Federation Starships use the same principles, and I would think that because this was a very important system they would have made it so that it could be used in all ships of the fleet.
That is possible. But as I have repeatedly said, we simply do not know. It is entirely possible the RC was decommissioned specifically because it could not use that system.
Actually, we saw them for four, don't believe me, look at this. Well, as far as I know there where no major conflicts to 2311. The Galaxy was at peace until the 2344 when the Battle of Narendra III took place, I would think that because of 30 years of peace the ship would be based more on Exploration rather than Combat, as seen with the Galaxy-Class.
I stand corrected on how many times it appeared, but it doesn't change the fact we know very little about the ship and even less about the circumstances involved in her creation or the time period in which she began production.
Well, I actually do have proof. The model is the Constitution, it was the same model used for the Enterprise, and many Star Trek fans agree with me because if they didn't, they would have changed memory Alpha saying it was some "unknown ship".
Except it doesn't evidence anything. It's debris. There's an R2-D2 in the debris in JJ-Trek, and a Millennium Falcon in First Contact. Am I to take them to exist in the Star Trek universe too because somebody in the graphics department wanted to have some fun? You have no indication of an RC being actually in service in Starfleet after ST6.
Not from what I've read. What I'm saying is that there is no proof saying that the Constitution-class was decommissioned, thus the only canon we have is the game, meaning that in the game the Connie was not decommissioned and is still in service.
As everyone likes to remind everyone, the game is not canon. The game is also prone to breaking canon in favor of game play, so it is not a reliable way to judge what did or did not happen. Does anyone honestly believe they would build replicas of the NX class and send them into combat? Because if we take the game as canon, they are.
Even though there was a Connie in Wolf 359. How many times are you going to ignore that? And until I see anything that says that was not a Connie I'm going to continue believing that.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. I have not ignored it. I said that it doesn't evidence anything because it's debris. You have no way to tell what, precisely it is. Is it a Starfleet ship? Is it a former RC sold to Fed world? Is it a RC turned into a freighter? Is it just a ship that looks a lot like an RC? Can you read a registry # on the hull? There is nothing about that which tells us if there are any RCs in service.
Actually, the Sovereign seems to be able to fit into a standard shipyard, so I think that they wouldn't need that much time to be able to refit. But I'm saying that it wasn't Logical that they were still building Galaxies even though they had a much better ship ready, the Galaxy was a LOT harder to build than the Sovereign, so it would have taken less time.
Manufacturing rarely works that way. You have to train crews on building it. You have to reconfigure your machinery to create the new thing. Then you need to train/re-train crews in the use of the new ships. That takes time. But in any case, there is no way to know what took so long to get Sovereigns into the fleet. There are too many factors in play, which is my point.
And what gives you the impression that the Galaxy was harder to build?
He is neither the President of CBS or Gene Roddenberry, I could care less about what he personally thinks happened.
Fine, but it does not diminish the fact that the man who had to say the very line you brought up, who has spent his life playing that character, and who has, to my knowledge, never been contradicted by anyone else, thinks it meant the ship, and that it makes way more sense to mean the ship and not the crew.
I'm thinking that they could have used any ship to do that. Now, there was another ship, the USS Saratoga , that was patrolling the Neutral Zone, that is something for more of a combat patrol ship.
Perhaps they could have, but they didn't.
As for the Saratoga, we don't know what, exactly, they were patrolling for. I'm not even sure that statement makes sense since I was under the impression the point of the neutral zone is that ships were not allowed to cross into it. Their job may have just been to use what were presumably extra powerful sensors to watch for border crossings and then notify Starfleet, kind of like an AWACS in the modern Air Force.
What part of "there's a saying" don't you understand? Oh, and very mature. Very mature indeed.
It the shortest way of pointing out that as it is debris, we have no way to know what it actually was before it became debris. For all I know it's just a graphics guy having fun with us all.
You must also take into account game canon, saying that the Connie is still going strong. And as I explained above, there is no canon specifically stating it was decommissioned, but since ingame canon is just as important as hard canon, that means the Connie is still going, and what I would consider a big positive. And there's a piece of background debris.
I can't use the game canon for this. The game canon expressly contradicts canon repeatedly on the ship issue so we can have more fun than we would if we didn't. If the game were acting in canon, there'd be no NX or TOSC for certain, and I know there's somebody here who can point all the canon-breaking issues with other ships.
That is possible. But as I have repeatedly said, we simply do not know. It is entirely possible the RC was decommissioned specifically because it could not use that system.
Then it would have been decommissioned years before. The first time we saw the Excelsior was in 2285, by the time Sulu was in command nearly a decade had passed. That is MORE than enough time to at least get a sizable fleet going. And since the Excelsior was apparently "better" than the Constitution, than one Excelsior should have been more valuable than 10 Connies. So the Enterprise-A should have logically ben decommissioned years before ST6.
I stand corrected on how many times it appeared, but it doesn't change the fact we know very little about the ship and even less about the circumstances involved in her creation or the time period in which she began production.
I made a logical assumption on that period, I may be wrong, but I may be right. From what I can tell it has the same mission as both the Excelsior and Constitution.
Except it doesn't evidence anything. It's debris. There's an R2-D2 in the debris in JJ-Trek, and a Millennium Falcon in First Contact. Am I to take them to exist in the Star Trek universe too because somebody in the graphics department wanted to have some fun? You have no indication of an RC being actually in service in Starfleet after ST6.
The problem is, those two injokes are very hard to see, not like the Connie that was shown in the foreground of the shot for a good few seconds. And due to the fact that the ships of that period where models, I think that they would have to make a conscious choice. If it was just "random debris" it could have been in the background.
As everyone likes to remind everyone, the game is not canon. The game is also prone to breaking canon in favor of game play, so it is not a reliable way to judge what did or did not happen. Does anyone honestly believe they would build replicas of the NX class and send them into combat? Because if we take the game as canon, they are.
But I have seen the Connie within canon missions, don't remember which, but I'll look for it.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. I have not ignored it. I said that it doesn't evidence anything because it's debris. You have no way to tell what, precisely it is. Is it a Starfleet ship? Is it a former RC sold to Fed world? Is it a RC turned into a freighter? Is it just a ship that looks a lot like an RC? Can you read a registry # on the hull? There is nothing about that which tells us if there are any RCs in service.
Can you read the registry numbers on the other ships? Does that mean that they are a bunch of freighters too? As I said earlier, its like send a J-class freighter to the Battle of Cardassia, Starfleet would try to get civilians as far away as possible. Now, if it had been a random battle, yeah, I might get your point, but it was predetermined that Wolf 359 was going to be Starfleet's last stand.
Manufacturing rarely works that way. You have to train crews on building it. You have to reconfigure your machinery to create the new thing. Then you need to train/re-train crews in the use of the new ships. That takes time. But in any case, there is no way to know what took so long to get Sovereigns into the fleet. There are too many factors in play, which is my point.
You are comparing building techniques developed 300+ years in the future to today? I'm thinking that with their computers, high-tech gagdets, etc, etc, making a starship might be easier than you think.
Fine, but it does not diminish the fact that the man who had to say the very line you brought up, who has spent his life playing that character, and who has, to my knowledge, never been contradicted by anyone else, thinks it meant the ship, and that it makes way more sense to mean the ship and not the crew.
He says that Kirk is alive, I don't see any reference of that in Star Trek.
As for the Saratoga, we don't know what, exactly, they were patrolling for. I'm not even sure that statement makes sense since I was under the impression the point of the neutral zone is that ships were not allowed to cross into it. Their job may have just been to use what were presumably extra powerful sensors to watch for border crossings and then notify Starfleet, kind of like an AWACS in the modern Air Force.
The Saratoga was patrolling the border for a Klingon invasion force. I would assume its mission was to alert Starfleet, and probably to fight and/or destroy any ships trying to enter Federation Space (even though it did a really sucky job.)
It the shortest way of pointing out that as it is debris, we have no way to know what it actually was before it became debris. For all I know it's just a graphics guy having fun with us all.
I can't use the game canon for this. The game canon expressly contradicts canon repeatedly on the ship issue so we can have more fun than we would if we didn't. If the game were acting in canon, there'd be no NX or TOSC for certain, and I know there's somebody here who can point all the canon-breaking issues with other ships.
And that's the point of the game, for us to have fun, its good to see that you agree with me on that. I want the Connie at T5 to have FUN. That is what many of my fellow Pro-Connie friends want, to have fun in their favorite ship. We don't want the Excalibur (I think it does look good). I want the Classic, the original, the ship I grew up with. Nothing more, nothing less.
Then it would have been decommissioned years before. The first time we saw the Excelsior was in 2285, by the time Sulu was in command nearly a decade had passed. That is MORE than enough time to at least get a sizable fleet going. And since the Excelsior was apparently "better" than the Constitution, than one Excelsior should have been more valuable than 10 Connies. So the Enterprise-A should have logically ben decommissioned years before ST6.
There is no reason to assume any of that. And, for all we know, they all actually were and the Enterprise A was the last one.
I made a logical assumption on that period, I may be wrong, but I may be right. From what I can tell it has the same mission as both the Excelsior and Constitution.
There's nothing logical about it because there's simply no information on which to base any assumption. Everything regarding the Ambassador is a guess.
The problem is, those two injokes are very hard to see, not like the Connie that was shown in the foreground of the shot for a good few seconds. And due to the fact that the ships of that period where models, I think that they would have to make a conscious choice. If it was just "random debris" it could have been in the background.
Oh, so now we have to talk about the time on screen and relative position before we can assess whether or not something getting stuck into just random graphics of a battle or battle debris is referencing something canon?
As I said earlier, its like send a J-class freighter to the Battle of Cardassia, Starfleet would try to get civilians as far away as possible. Now, if it had been a random battle, yeah, I might get your point, but it was predetermined that Wolf 359 was going to be Starfleet's last stand.
And as I reminded you, it was a hastily assembled effort and a running firefight as a desperate attempt to stop the Borg cube. If it's a freighter, I don't think it just showed up to fight. I would think it just got caught in the battle. My personal opinion would be that it's somebody having fun in the graphics department, and if I were pressed to pick an in-universe description, it was one of the ones sold off to a Fed world that came as a result of all the distress calls probably going off as the Borg cube massacred the fleet.
You are comparing building techniques developed 300+ years in the future to today? I'm thinking that with their computers, high-tech gagdets, etc, etc, making a starship might be easier than you think.
Those simple facts haven't changed in the last hundred and fifty years of manufacturing, so I don't see why they would change in the future. All we're talking about is a high-tech assembly line. If nothing else, you have to program the computer to do the new assembly. And you know you gotta train the new crews on the new ships. Given how badly the Dominion was beating Starfleet in ship construction, I would assume even the most minor downtime to reset to build the new ships could've been critical. This is of course assuming it's equally fast to build a Sovereign as it is to build a Galaxy.
The Enterprise at least was so new Troi's first response to their not engaging the Borg was to ask if Starfleet thought they needed more shakedown time, so we don't even know if Starfleet was confident enough in it to begin mass production in the first place.
This line, though it may be a little dated. It is hard evidence.
You're quoting Mem Alpha, not the show, and more importantly, that doesn't say it would be continue to be that way in the future, only that when it came out it was, so it has no bearing on what it is like vs. the Sovereign.
He says that Kirk is alive, I don't see any reference of that in Star Trek.
As I said, it's not about the plot of the book, it's about the interpretation of the line. I'm not arguing that the Enterprise A was destroyed at Chal or any of the other plot points that Shatner invented, only that his interpretation of "we're to be decommissioned" is clearly the Enterprise A, not simply his command crew, since he has the ship decommissioned.
In fact, you're the only person I've encountered to find that line ambiguous at all. I think the fact that Kirk adds "and her history" is enough to indicate he's speaking metaphorically about the Enterprise namesake and its legacy, not specifically the Enterprise A, all by itself.
The Saratoga was patrolling the border for a Klingon invasion force. I would assume its mission was to alert Starfleet, and probably to fight and/or destroy any ships trying to enter Federation Space (even though it did a really sucky job.)
And that's the point of the game, for us to have fun, its good to see that you agree with me on that. I want the Connie at T5 to have FUN. That is what many of my fellow Pro-Connie friends want, to have fun in their favorite ship. We don't want the Excalibur (I think it does look good). I want the Classic, the original, the ship I grew up with. Nothing more, nothing less.
Yeah, fun is always important, but fun has to be balanced with consistency of setting and good gameplay mechanics, because I can literally justify anything I want by saying it's fun otherwise. What you want is not a good gameplay mechanic, it does not fit the setting, and it is quite frankly very silly.
It feels sometimes like people missed the point of ST6, wherein time moves on and things change. STO is set beyond the RC, so even as much as we love her, we too should move on. STO did us a favor by letting us have that one last hurrah playing her at the lower levels, (my ship system, btw, would make that last longer), and we should, in turn, do them a favor by accepting their setting and moving up to the newer ships later in the game.
And as I reminded you, it was a hastily assembled effort and a running firefight as a desperate attempt to stop the Borg cube. If it's a freighter, I don't think it just showed up to fight. I would think it just got caught in the battle. My personal opinion would be that it's somebody having fun in the graphics department, and if I were pressed to pick an in-universe description, it was one of the ones sold off to a Fed world that came as a result of all the distress calls probably going off as the Borg cube massacred the fleet.
My favorite theory is that RC seen in the wreckage at Wolf359 was a training ship. We do know in canon that the USS Republic still served in this capacity, though she hadn't left Sol since the 2320s. Maybe they had two for training and this one happened to be crewed at the time crisis arose. *shrug*
Ok so the TOS Bundle was just released. I'm loving the whole thing, but I want to be able to do missions and STF's in a ship that matches the interior e.g. The TOS Constitution-Class. Now I know people are going to say that a Connie isnt that powerful and yada yada, but you just release a major pack full of uniforms, an accurate and working interior, a shuttle craft...but the only ship we have to match it is a T1 Connie.
Did someone forget to put it on the C too? Give the people what they want: Make a CDR and RA/VA version of the ship. Add more weapon hardpoints, more console slots like you did with the Galaxy-X, and get it out there! I have an amazing bridge, costumes, weapons from the devidian series, a shuttle, but no ship I can fly that wont blow up in a nano-second. Im flying a T5 Excelsior which coincidentally is the closest T5 ship near the TOS/TMP timeline. Dont leave us hangin here. Please, update the T1 Connie and let us RA/VA's enjoy it too!
Sorry to say this but it wont gonna happen,CBS already said no,devs dont want either so,no.
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You might want to give your resurrection activities a rest.
at t5 level this game is set in TNG and beyond era. no t5 conny. its a fact. i really understand your wish, but it would just make more ppl unhappy (pvpers and tng ppl) than it makes happy. pvp conny vs neghvar??? conny vs romulan warbird?
sry dudes but this game is set in the "here and now" (for scifi perspective of startrek ;-)) and not in the yesterdays. the escelsior refit, thats more powerful than a sovy is already a punch in the face of timeline.
you whole wish would split the gaming community into 2 parts. the tos ppl and the tng ppl. but tjis game was set at tng at t5 from the very beginning. now you just complain over and over about that fact! this game reflects the tng and beyond era at t5. not tos era at t5 sorry.
you cant just get into a game that set up a story past TNG and demand for a 100years old ship for the nedgame story and to be as effective as a t5 ship.
if you are a TOS fan, why the hell did you buy this game? it was very clear that this game is set at 24th century.
I want one so bad. The argument that is old tech is meaningless. It is like the old argument can god make rock he can not lift? I have yet to see one peace of paper form CBS saying NO and until I do it is Cryptic that is the problem. Cryptic is the saying NO. They also have admitted that it the single most ask for ship.
I have stop buying stuff from the C-Store tell this is changed.
Comments
All baseless conjecture. There is no way to know what happened to it. For all we know it worked fabulously and could never fit in the RC, only to be replaced again later. So the only thing we have to go on is how it compared in ST III.
How is anything obvious about the Ambassador? We saw exactly one of them for one episode. We know nothing about that ship or when it was launched or why. We know virtually nothing about that time period in Star Trek because it skipped right to TNG and never bothered to fill in the details.
We can't know anything about a piece of debris @ Wolf 359. It could've easily been a ship that only looked like one. Nobody says "oh look, there's an old RC class ship" when they show up there. By your own standard of saying somebody has to actually make a statement about the RC specifically, it counts for nothing.
When the game's canon doesn't fit in with what we know about Starfleet, the real canon wins out. Dismissing is not ignoring. Ignoring means I don't even acknowledge it. I acknowledge it and say "weighed against real canon evidence, it should not be so."
As for the rest, again, go back to my statement about "knowing." If you want to jump through hoops and pretend that the RC stayed in service even though none of them were ever seen again, you're welcome to that belief.
Matt believes they were the same. So if you think they're not, you need to argue with him on that one.
The Sovereign was brand new during the war. They would obviously have to take the time to refit the shipyards to begin producing the ship and that takes time and it means stopping production while you do it which is difficult to do in the middle of a war you are losing. The war was probably over by the time the Sovereigns got into full production.
Even the Excelsior taking the RC's spot would've presumably taken time. It was two movies before the original Excelsior was out on missions.
Not at all, because my argument isn't about Captain's Glory, it's about Shatner's interpretation of the line he spoke. It's the closest thing to him being quoted saying "the Enterprise was decommissioned."
That's not the grunt work I'm talking about. The Miranda we see is given the task of flying around the Federation scanning planets for Dr. Marcus. Not exactly the thing assigned to your combat patrol ships or your long-term exploration vessels.
And, presumably the Enterprise is on training duty because she isn't the top of the line best ship at that point. The Admiral scoffing at her age in STIII lends itself pretty well to that also.
Except it isn't walking or quacking. It's a piece of debris.
Again, go back to my explanation on "knowing." You're asking me to prove a negative. I'm asking you to prove a positive. Prove to me the ship remained in service. The only thing that could even suggest that it continued in service is one piece of background debris.
Meanwhile, everything else we've seen suggests that it was not in service.
I am fairly sure this will be more then possible in the future. STO is talking about making a new Crafting system where you take old ships like the T1 Connie, Miranda, Akeria, And Connie Retro fit (TMP series enterprise) and being able to use samples, and various materials and upgrading and refiting them so you can have what ever ship you want improved from tier 1, to tier 6.
So I would push for this crafting system instead of a new tier 5 ship in the C-store, this will save RL money, and all you need is samples and materials to get your tier 5 ship of the class you like and want.
All Federation Starships use the same principles, and I would think that because this was a very important system they would have made it so that it could be used in all ships of the fleet.
Actually, we saw them for four, don't believe me, look at this. Well, as far as I know there where no major conflicts to 2311. The Galaxy was at peace until the 2344 when the Battle of Narendra III took place, I would think that because of 30 years of peace the ship would be based more on Exploration rather than Combat, as seen with the Galaxy-Class.
Well, I actually do have proof. The model is the Constitution, it was the same model used for the Enterprise, and many Star Trek fans agree with me because if they didn't, they would have changed memory Alpha saying it was some "unknown ship".
Not from what I've read. What I'm saying is that there is no proof saying that the Constitution-class was decommissioned, thus the only canon we have is the game, meaning that in the game the Connie was not decommissioned and is still in service.
Even though there was a Connie in Wolf 359. How many times are you going to ignore that? And until I see anything that says that was not a Connie I'm going to continue believing that.
Actually, the Sovereign seems to be able to fit into a standard shipyard, so I think that they wouldn't need that much time to be able to refit. But I'm saying that it wasn't Logical that they were still building Galaxies even though they had a much better ship ready, the Galaxy was a LOT harder to build than the Sovereign, so it would have taken less time.
He is neither the President of CBS or Gene Roddenberry, I could care less about what he personally thinks happened.
I'm thinking that they could have used any ship to do that. Now, there was another ship, the USS Saratoga , that was patrolling the Neutral Zone, that is something for more of a combat patrol ship.
Got me there
What part of "there's a saying" don't you understand? Oh, and very mature. Very mature indeed.
You must also take into account game canon, saying that the Connie is still going strong. And as I explained above, there is no canon specifically stating it was decommissioned, but since ingame canon is just as important as hard canon, that means the Connie is still going, and what I would consider a big positive. And there's a piece of background debris.
1) Odd to see this alive in the C-Store and Promotions forum. I see a larger picture for this topic than as something to sell.
2) All this discussion about what the Excelsior represents in contrast to the Constitution-classes is interesting. As far as I know, Excelsior herself was merely a testbed for the earliest transwarp experiments. Very little else about her purpose was ever explained. Back in the day we fans speculated she was, indeed, intended for a different role than the Constitutions. As the model was larger, better armed (beam-wise) and was hoped to travel more quickly, it was assumed she was a battleship. Though this never panned out come Star Trek VI.
3) As revisionist history (ie. Enterprise TV show) confirms, the name Enterprise was not exclusive to the Constitution-class. The fact that the name was carried forward to an Excelsior - and future classes - doesn't really mean anything one way or the other about the fate of ship class which previously carried the name. Only the individual starship. No TV show or film ever interpreted the phasing out or de-commissioning of an entire class. So we don't really know anything one way or the other as to the process in this fictional setting.
4) I think its stretching it to assume the entire class of Constitutions were de-commissioned based purely upon the fate of the Enterprise-A. It was only one starship. Production-wise, the TV shows and films merely wanted a fresh spin for presentation. Hence, newer models and less opportunity - or interest - to display the Constitution. Producer's choice is not necessarily something to translate into what our fictional Starfleet thought.
That is possible. But as I have repeatedly said, we simply do not know. It is entirely possible the RC was decommissioned specifically because it could not use that system.
I stand corrected on how many times it appeared, but it doesn't change the fact we know very little about the ship and even less about the circumstances involved in her creation or the time period in which she began production.
Except it doesn't evidence anything. It's debris. There's an R2-D2 in the debris in JJ-Trek, and a Millennium Falcon in First Contact. Am I to take them to exist in the Star Trek universe too because somebody in the graphics department wanted to have some fun? You have no indication of an RC being actually in service in Starfleet after ST6.
As everyone likes to remind everyone, the game is not canon. The game is also prone to breaking canon in favor of game play, so it is not a reliable way to judge what did or did not happen. Does anyone honestly believe they would build replicas of the NX class and send them into combat? Because if we take the game as canon, they are.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. I have not ignored it. I said that it doesn't evidence anything because it's debris. You have no way to tell what, precisely it is. Is it a Starfleet ship? Is it a former RC sold to Fed world? Is it a RC turned into a freighter? Is it just a ship that looks a lot like an RC? Can you read a registry # on the hull? There is nothing about that which tells us if there are any RCs in service.
Manufacturing rarely works that way. You have to train crews on building it. You have to reconfigure your machinery to create the new thing. Then you need to train/re-train crews in the use of the new ships. That takes time. But in any case, there is no way to know what took so long to get Sovereigns into the fleet. There are too many factors in play, which is my point.
And what gives you the impression that the Galaxy was harder to build?
Fine, but it does not diminish the fact that the man who had to say the very line you brought up, who has spent his life playing that character, and who has, to my knowledge, never been contradicted by anyone else, thinks it meant the ship, and that it makes way more sense to mean the ship and not the crew.
Perhaps they could have, but they didn't.
As for the Saratoga, we don't know what, exactly, they were patrolling for. I'm not even sure that statement makes sense since I was under the impression the point of the neutral zone is that ships were not allowed to cross into it. Their job may have just been to use what were presumably extra powerful sensors to watch for border crossings and then notify Starfleet, kind of like an AWACS in the modern Air Force.
It the shortest way of pointing out that as it is debris, we have no way to know what it actually was before it became debris. For all I know it's just a graphics guy having fun with us all.
I can't use the game canon for this. The game canon expressly contradicts canon repeatedly on the ship issue so we can have more fun than we would if we didn't. If the game were acting in canon, there'd be no NX or TOSC for certain, and I know there's somebody here who can point all the canon-breaking issues with other ships.
Then it would have been decommissioned years before. The first time we saw the Excelsior was in 2285, by the time Sulu was in command nearly a decade had passed. That is MORE than enough time to at least get a sizable fleet going. And since the Excelsior was apparently "better" than the Constitution, than one Excelsior should have been more valuable than 10 Connies. So the Enterprise-A should have logically ben decommissioned years before ST6.
I made a logical assumption on that period, I may be wrong, but I may be right. From what I can tell it has the same mission as both the Excelsior and Constitution.
The problem is, those two injokes are very hard to see, not like the Connie that was shown in the foreground of the shot for a good few seconds. And due to the fact that the ships of that period where models, I think that they would have to make a conscious choice. If it was just "random debris" it could have been in the background.
But I have seen the Connie within canon missions, don't remember which, but I'll look for it.
There is no reason to assume any of that. And, for all we know, they all actually were and the Enterprise A was the last one.
There's nothing logical about it because there's simply no information on which to base any assumption. Everything regarding the Ambassador is a guess.
Oh, so now we have to talk about the time on screen and relative position before we can assess whether or not something getting stuck into just random graphics of a battle or battle debris is referencing something canon?
Everything in that shot is "random debris."
A lot of the times you can, but I was being facetious with that question.
And as I reminded you, it was a hastily assembled effort and a running firefight as a desperate attempt to stop the Borg cube. If it's a freighter, I don't think it just showed up to fight. I would think it just got caught in the battle. My personal opinion would be that it's somebody having fun in the graphics department, and if I were pressed to pick an in-universe description, it was one of the ones sold off to a Fed world that came as a result of all the distress calls probably going off as the Borg cube massacred the fleet.
Those simple facts haven't changed in the last hundred and fifty years of manufacturing, so I don't see why they would change in the future. All we're talking about is a high-tech assembly line. If nothing else, you have to program the computer to do the new assembly. And you know you gotta train the new crews on the new ships. Given how badly the Dominion was beating Starfleet in ship construction, I would assume even the most minor downtime to reset to build the new ships could've been critical. This is of course assuming it's equally fast to build a Sovereign as it is to build a Galaxy.
The Enterprise at least was so new Troi's first response to their not engaging the Borg was to ask if Starfleet thought they needed more shakedown time, so we don't even know if Starfleet was confident enough in it to begin mass production in the first place.
You're quoting Mem Alpha, not the show, and more importantly, that doesn't say it would be continue to be that way in the future, only that when it came out it was, so it has no bearing on what it is like vs. the Sovereign.
As I said, it's not about the plot of the book, it's about the interpretation of the line. I'm not arguing that the Enterprise A was destroyed at Chal or any of the other plot points that Shatner invented, only that his interpretation of "we're to be decommissioned" is clearly the Enterprise A, not simply his command crew, since he has the ship decommissioned.
In fact, you're the only person I've encountered to find that line ambiguous at all. I think the fact that Kirk adds "and her history" is enough to indicate he's speaking metaphorically about the Enterprise namesake and its legacy, not specifically the Enterprise A, all by itself.
Like I said, no way to really tell.
Yeah, fun is always important, but fun has to be balanced with consistency of setting and good gameplay mechanics, because I can literally justify anything I want by saying it's fun otherwise. What you want is not a good gameplay mechanic, it does not fit the setting, and it is quite frankly very silly.
It feels sometimes like people missed the point of ST6, wherein time moves on and things change. STO is set beyond the RC, so even as much as we love her, we too should move on. STO did us a favor by letting us have that one last hurrah playing her at the lower levels, (my ship system, btw, would make that last longer), and we should, in turn, do them a favor by accepting their setting and moving up to the newer ships later in the game.
My favorite theory is that RC seen in the wreckage at Wolf359 was a training ship. We do know in canon that the USS Republic still served in this capacity, though she hadn't left Sol since the 2320s. Maybe they had two for training and this one happened to be crewed at the time crisis arose. *shrug*
You realize that posting in threads that haven't had a post in over 30 days is an infraction-worthy offense, right?
You might want to give your resurrection activities a rest.
Z
sry dudes but this game is set in the "here and now" (for scifi perspective of startrek ;-)) and not in the yesterdays. the escelsior refit, thats more powerful than a sovy is already a punch in the face of timeline.
you whole wish would split the gaming community into 2 parts. the tos ppl and the tng ppl. but tjis game was set at tng at t5 from the very beginning. now you just complain over and over about that fact! this game reflects the tng and beyond era at t5. not tos era at t5 sorry.
you cant just get into a game that set up a story past TNG and demand for a 100years old ship for the nedgame story and to be as effective as a t5 ship.
if you are a TOS fan, why the hell did you buy this game? it was very clear that this game is set at 24th century.
http://www.startrekonline.com/node/1771
...
I have stop buying stuff from the C-Store tell this is changed.
Cyptic gimmie
Except for the Excelsior. And the Vulcan Science vessel.