Anyone with an understanding of economics understands price is based on supply and demand. Digital distribution means in this case there is practically no cost (save initial development) and unlimited supply, which makes things hard to peg in the traditional sense. You can however look at what other companies are charging for similar products: From full AAA titles, to indie games, and other DLC, and see that Cryptic is an out-lier in terms of pricing it's content. What's harder to peg down is the extent to which C-store gouging has hurt the subscriber base. I think the majority of really intelligent players left this game a long time ago, within a couple of months from launch. What we're left with is four groups: life time subs, PvPers, people who are able to ignore the C-store, and schmucks who are willing and able to be overcharged. If you can't see that $15 is several times too much for the TOS pack compared to the pricing the rest of the industry is using you're both drinking the koolaid and you also don't understand a thing about economics yourself.
Darren, we aren't talking about monthly subs in the first place, but even then your argument is simplistic and one sided. For one, the market for MMOs has increased substantially over the last fifteen years, we still aren't out of tough economic times, fifteen dollars a month was never a fair price (for the subscribers it's like paying for a full $60 AAA title ever four months, and it's obvious that not that much work goes into those four months. Yes, there are also server fees, but as hardware and infrastructure gets more capable those are shrinking... and the hardware itself is always getting cheaper), and the psychological limit that people would be willing to pay a month for an MMO is around $15/month no matter how you rationalize it. You can also look at other industries where you can make many of the same arguments where cost hasn't gone up, or has even done down. From cars, computers, electronics, TVs, fast food, music... things aren't quite as simple as "OMG inflation, prices need to come up"
Or someone who knows a thing or two about economics, and understands where a price comes from and what its purpose is.
Indeed, condescending non-answers aside... I'd be perfectly content to pay a $20 subscription if meant we didn't have to suffer the mercenary overpricing of the C-store.
I imagine we understand economics well enough from the perspective of the consumer enough to appeal to the concept of perceived-value... we can see what the competition is offering... and we can see what Cryptic is offering... and Cryptic does not come off well in the comparison... the exrtortionate pricing might well maximize revenue and be 'what the market will bear' and so on and so forth... but is also clearly harming Cryptic's image in the eyes of its consumers, reducing their loyalty and their likelihood of wanting to support Cryptic through amassed goodwill. That's certainly the case with me.
What truly boggles my mind is the latest spate of people saying 'I /appreciate/ the C-store letting me trade my valuable time for money to purchase content'.
You're thankful that Cryptic is letting you give them extra money? Seriously?
On one hand we have people insisting the C-store is only 'fluff'' (which is clearly is not)... and on the other hand we have those same people defending the in-game emblem costs as these items as being justified because 'you have to grind for end-game gear'. So either Cryptic are instituting a ridiculous, month-long grind for 'fluff' items... or they're selling their end-game gear for real-world money... and I tend to believe it's the latter.
People need to make their feelings known on this, because it's clearly only going to get worse.
The things being sold /are/ game-affecting, they are /not/ fluff/, it /is/ content.
The prices /are/ excessive and unjustified by any reasonable industry standard of value-for-money, and the 'in-game methods' of obtaining them are arduous and punitive to the point of not being worthy of the term.
Indeed, condescending non-answers aside... I'd be perfectly content to pay a $20 subscription if meant we didn't have to suffer the mercenary overpricing of the C-store.
I imagine we understand economics well enough from the perspective of the consumer enough to appeal to the concept of perceived-value... we can see what the competition is offering... and we can see what Cryptic is offering... and Cryptic does not come off well in the comparison... the exrtortionate pricing might well maximize revenue and be 'what the market will bear' and so on and so forth... but is also clearly harming Cryptic's image in the eyes of its consumers, reducing their loyalty and their likelihood of wanting to support Cryptic through amassed goodwill. That's certainly the case with me.
What truly boggles my mind is the latest spate of people saying 'I /appreciate/ the C-store letting me trade my valuable time for money to purchase content'.
You're thankful that Cryptic is letting you give them extra money? Seriously?
On one hand we have people insisting the C-store is only 'fluff'' (which is clearly is not)... and on the other hand we have those same people defending the in-game emblem costs as these items as being justified because 'you have to grind for end-game gear'. So either Cryptic are instituting a ridiculous, month-long grind for 'fluff' items... or they're selling their end-game gear for real-world money... and I tend to believe it's the latter.
People need to make their feelings known on this, because it's clearly only going to get worse.
The things being sold /are/ game-affecting, they are /not/ fluff/, it /is/ content.
The prices /are/ excessive and unjustified by any reasonable industry standard of value-for-money, and the 'in-game methods' of obtaining them are arduous and punitive to the point of not being worthy of the term.
You know my biggest gripe with any kind of in-game store?
I can't be the only person who plays computer games as a form of escapism. It's no different to losing yourself in a good book or a movie for a few hours.
Unfortunately, the immersion of STO is shattered by these "points" sold by present-day game-maker Atari, who don't exist in the Star Trek universe.
They don't make any attempt to keep a pure Star Trek universe. It's overloaded with their money-grubbing, immersion-breaking antics.
It's akin to the author of a really good novel inserting a line every few pages to remind the reader they're reading a book and that none of iwhat they're reading is real. Who needs that in entertainment? Not I. What self-respecting author would fill his work with such poison to his readers' enjoyment? Well... none that want to sell any books.
The software to make content is far more advanced now. You can make much more higher quality content in the same amount of time. With less people than you could in the 90's.
You don't mod, do you?
Creating art for modern games is much more involved (and, I hate to break it to you but, aside from animation rigging, most mod tools aren't much further ahead in terms of speeding things - especially when the workload per art asset has grown exponentially)
You're no longer creating a few textures on a model: you're creating several textures for varying purposes, from parallax to depth & bump mapping. You're not just create one low-res texture: you're creating several for each model.
When MMOs first came out with that $15 fee: you just had simple textures and low polygon counts in graphics packages. They weren't that much different from today: most of the changes to these toolsets have been to cope with the increased workload and myriad of other tasks added.
The tools have gotten better (there's no doubt here) but the workload has increased dramatically (one of the many reasons, aside from publishers and consoles, that modding on modern games seems to have decreased since its heyday in the early 2000s).
It takes longer to make today's models on today's packages than it did to make the 1990s-era models on those era's packages - if only because the number of tasks has grown so quickly whereas the improvements have been more incremental and less profound.
I dont think whether he mods or not has any bearing on what is being shown, especially on the last few pages.
No one is saying the value of a item is not determined by the buyer. What is being said, is each time the fans of the C-store pipe in, they are only hurting themselves, in this modified supply and demand scenario.
Every time someone says" oh, come on, 15 dollars is worth it for a ship, or whatever" they give Atari/cryptic the excuse to continually increase the price. Its not conducive to a supply and demand market.
If anything, the fans of the C-store should be agreeing, that would make the prices drop to a reasonable amount for a virtual good that has no real value.
Then you have the argument "its here for good deal with it", that may be true to some extent, but wouldn't you prefer more value for the money you spend?
Anyone with an understanding of economics understands price is based on supply and demand. Digital distribution means in this case there is practically no cost (save initial development)
That is not true. Particularly not for an MMO. What do you think those servers cost that distribute the software daily, and ensure that we can battle each other in PvP daily?
Yes, there are also server fees, but as hardware and infrastructure gets more capable those are shrinking... and the hardware itself is always getting cheaper),
That hardware might be getting better - but the demands to it are also increasing.
The lifetime subscription is well worth the cost as serious mmo players usually spend a year to 2 on a game they really love like wow. And at 15/month that works out to the same as paying monthly for 2 years. If i had that much to drop at once i would do it too. it all depends how much you like this game and how willing you are to stick around through its growing pains.
Every mmo i have ever played including free ones had their own equivalent. Developing games cost money. And the money from subscriptions mainly just covers normal operating expenses and keep the game in the green. Plus the cstore content also helps to attract more subscribers. Or bring back former players.
As for the lack of content at release. They were forced to release early or loose the liscense. But the game as it stands now is lightyears better now. And you dont have to pay out more money every 6 months for expansions like you do on other games (hence another reason for the cstore).
Can we set up a stipend like the CO game has for those paying subscriptions or lifetimers? Then the C-Store wouldn't be an issue since you would get 400 tokens a month...want the new ship save for it 2 or 3 months. They already have the setup in CO and since STO runs on practically the same engine how hard would it be to set it up.
To play my own Devil's advocate here...they won't set that up anytime soon as long as people are paying money for the game play and to buy stuff out of the c-store. Why give away the cow when the people are buying the milk?
Like it or hate it the C-store is a part of this MMo....they will not do away with it just because people don't like it....the only recourse you have is to NOT BUY anything form it. Vote with your dollars. Maybe if no one buys anything for a very long time they will do something else....like charge for any new mods to the game or for the weeklys. Just face the facts, any way a company can make money they will do so until it is no longer making them money.
Example:
Microsoft puts out half finished products and then has the audacity to charge you 200-400 dollars more for a "improved/upgraded" OS that is the same as the last one except it's made to look pretty and the flaws that were found from the last run were reduced. Oh you want to print this document out...send more money.
When MMOs first came out with that $15 fee: you just had normal maps and low polygon counts in graphics packages. They weren't that much different from today: most of the changes to these toolsets have been to cope with the increased workload and myriad of other tasks added.
The irony here is that despite your lecturing you obviously don't know what a normal or a normal map is. Early MMOs most certainly did not use normal mapping, and that technique only began to become widespread after Doom 3.
As far as the cost of making games, it is very common knowledge that for AAA titles the cost has gone up. Obviously some aspects have became cheaper but on the whole game development costs more. In a somewhat counter-intuitive way though, indie developers have become more enabled. It's possible to create games with lower production values at a fraction of the cost, especially now that the Unreal Engine is free to download and use (although you still pay royalties after a you bring in a certain amount of sales). Cryptic is interesting, because they like to brag about there small number of employees, and how cheap and efficient their server tech is. They even sometimes refer to themselves as an indie studio. Whether we can compare Cryptic with other AAA studios in terms of cost is something only Cryptic themselves can possibly know.
That is not true. Particularly not for an MMO. What do you think those servers cost that distribute the software daily, and ensure that we can battle each other in PvP daily?
Server upkeep is a constant with or without the C-store and partially justifies the monthly sub. The C-store itself is a completely separate issue, and server upkeep should not be factored into the price of C-store transactions.
The irony here is that despite your lecturing you obviously don't know what a normal or a normal map is. Early MMOs most certainly did not use normal mapping, and that technique only began to become widespread after Doom 3.
Can we set up a stipend like the CO game has for those paying subscriptions or lifetimers? Then the C-Store wouldn't be an issue since you would get 400 tokens a month...want the new ship save for it 2 or 3 months. They already have the setup in CO and since STO runs on practically the same engine how hard would it be to set it up.
To play my own Devil's advocate here...they won't set that up anytime soon as long as people are paying money for the game play and to buy stuff out of the c-store. Why give away the cow when the people are buying the milk?
I think it will happen once STO goes F2P. I think it will happen as well, Cryptic/Atari is just waiting to see how stable CO will be on the F2P scheme. Once it stables out and they run whatever numbers and they will decide if it will work with STO or not. Personally I think STO will eventually go F2P. I also can't wait for this so I can get that monthly stipend and start using the C-Store.
I misspoke there. Oops. The rest of the post is consistent.
However, the point that it's not just one texture being generated anymore still remains.
It's still not a good point. Texturing isn't, and has never been the issue with rising game costs. Textures are easy to create, cheap enough to buy if that fails, and infinitely recyclable. In terms of content creation, the exponential increase in geometric complexity (and then needing to optimize that geometry) is the biggie.
People don't even necessarily hate the idea of a C-store. It's what is getting put in there store that is angering people and the price of those things. If it were just costumes and character services, there would be little complaint, particularly if they were minimal cost, say $1-$5 instead of $15-$25 for one item.
That frustration is then amplified by dissatisfaction with the state of the game itself.
Umm - you realize that any Ship with 'extra' powers (which is the only thing in the C-Store that is 'advantageous' to a Player in gameplay can now be gotten 'free' by other means (collecting Marks, Emblems, or Refering 5 friends in the case of the Galaxy-X). For the most part is IS just costumes and fluff. You don't NEED the Constitution interior to play the game or level your character.
And if you're dissatisfied with the current state game, why maintain your subscription? If you don't feel the game is worth the sub price, sto;p paying/playing.
Creating art for modern games is much more involved (and, I hate to break it to you but, aside from animation rigging, most mod tools aren't much further ahead in terms of speeding things - especially when the workload per art asset has grown exponentially)
You're no longer creating a few normal maps to texture a model: you're creating several textures for varying purposes, from parallax to depth & bump mapping. You're not just create one low-res texture: you're creating several for each model.
When MMOs first came out with that $15 fee: you just had simple textures and low polygon counts in graphics packages. They weren't that much different from today: most of the changes to these toolsets have been to cope with the increased workload and myriad of other tasks added.
The tools have gotten better (there's no doubt here) but the workload has increased dramatically (one of the many reasons, aside from publishers and consoles, that modding on modern games seems to have decreased since its heyday in the early 2000s).
It takes longer to make today's models on today's packages than it did to make the 1990s-era models on those era's packages - if only because the number of tasks has grown so quickly whereas the improvements have been more incremental and less profound.
I hate to break it to you computers has increased in speed tremendously since the 90's everything from rendering to the highly advanced software. It's much easier and faster now. Whats in games today couldn't be done in the 90's in the same amount of time or quality.
It's still not a good point. Texturing isn't, and has never been the issue with rising game costs. Textures are easy to create, cheap enough to buy if that fails, and infinitely recyclable. In terms of content creation, the exponential increase in geometric complexity (and then needing to optimize that geometry) is the biggie.
Individual textures themselves are easy but we're not longer talking about creating a face texture on an older game: we're talking about several textures nowadays with specialized purposes. Some give it color, some give it depth (normal/parallax/bump), and some give it variation. You're not just creating one texture: you're creating a plurality of textures.
That was just one example - not a summary of the playing field.
As you point out: geometry, sound production, marketing and more could all be said to be increasing quickly. (Yes, even marketing costs more as the industry becomes more competitive. Suddenly a $20 million game needs another $10 million in marketing - though this has affected the film industry worse during the time period).
I hate to break it to you computers has increased in speed tremendously since the 90's everything from rendering to the highly advanced software. It's much easier and faster now. Whats in games today couldn't be done in the 90's in the same amount of time or quality.
Please read a credit list more frequently.
Compare team sizes between Everquest and Everquest 2, City of Heroes and Champions Online.
Team sizes have grown
Occupations have become more specialized
Cost of development has increased
This clearly contradicts the hunch you have that games are made with fewer people for less money and that the increased technology has only improved computing for developers (newsflash: it also means consumers have considerably more advanced computers than before - thereby raising the bar).
Compare team sizes between Everquest and Everquest 2, City of Heroes and Champions Online.
You're comparing the first MMO of each company to it's successor. Of course team sizes are going to grow. It's based on the company no longer needing to scrimp for it.
With Everquest, the whole genre was basically unexplored. With Everquest 2, the first game was such a success that of course it gets far more funding than the original.
CoH vs. CO? Come on, Cryptic was basically unknown before CoH. It may not have been the complete market success that Everquest was, but it has held it's own. And CO's funding/team is simply indicative of the success they had with CoH.
You're comparing the first MMO of each company to it's successor. Of course team sizes are going to grow. It's based on the company no longer needing to scrimp for it.
With Everquest, the whole genre was basically unexplored. With Everquest 2, the first game was such a success that of course it gets far more funding than the original.
CoH vs. CO? Come on, Cryptic was basically unknown before CoH. It may not have been the complete market success that Everquest was, but it has held it's own. And CO's funding/team is simply indicative of the success they had with CoH.
My examples are poor then - for the reasons you state.
However, are you honestly saying that team sizes have decreased since the 1990s, though?
Maybe my examples weren't the best but:
Are you saying that game development team sizes have decreased and their workload become more generalized, as Englebert suggested?
If you need a valid comparison based on your criteria:
Let's compare Rifts (a first game for a company) to DDO (a third game for a well-established company, Turbine - who released both AC and AC2 before DDO).
(granted, neither are from the 1990s but there were no MMO sequels in the 90s).
Umm - you realize that any Ship with 'extra' powers (which is the only thing in the C-Store that is 'advantageous' to a Player in gameplay can now be gotten 'free' by other means (collecting Marks, Emblems, or Refering 5 friends in the case of the Galaxy-X). For the most part is IS just costumes and fluff. You don't NEED the Constitution interior to play the game or level your character.
If I want a properly scaled interior and bridge, I have to buy the Constitution interior. There is no alternative to that in the game. There is no way to grind for that.
Further, I agree with many others who have said grinding for a month straight just to get one thing for one character is no more of a fair exchange than paying $15-$25 for it.
And if you're dissatisfied with the current state game, why maintain your subscription? If you don't feel the game is worth the sub price, sto;p paying/playing.
You know, I'm sick of seeing this being the catch all response to anything anyone doesn't like. It doesn't address the points made, and it isn't good for the game to push people out of it. The whole point of these forums is to give feedback to Cryptic.
And for the record, I did stop paying/playing. I post on the forums because I believe in the potential of the game and the people who make it, but I'm not going to sugar coat things because that helps nobody.
Compare team sizes between Everquest and Everquest 2, City of Heroes and Champions Online.
Team sizes have grown
Occupations have become more specialized
Cost of development has increased
This clearly contradicting the hunch you have that games are made with fewer people for less money and that the increased technology has only improved computing for developers (newsflash: it also means consumers have considerably more advanced computers than before - thereby raising the bar).
These statements are plain as day.
And absolutely none of it is proof that game makers need micro transactions. If game makers were going to make those out dated games with their level of quality. With todays software and technology. It would be much faster and take fewer people than it did at the time.
STO development cost was very low so they can do more with less. They also claim to have a very small staff. I really doubt that they could have done the same level quality. With fewer people cheaper with 90's technology and software. Or they would have used it.
People claim that STO was released "unfinished". Well isn't that by design? IMHO an MMO that is finished, is one no longer seeing updates, who's storyline is exhausted with no further new ideas, and is dying on the vine. The entire point of an MMO is to be unfinished in my simple mind.
Even if STO spent an other year in Development, with everything it currently has now, and included everything most people wish for, would it really be finished ?
You know, I'm sick of seeing this being the catch all response to anything anyone doesn't like. It doesn't address the points made, and it isn't good for the game to push people out of it. The whole point of these forums is to give feedback to Cryptic.
And for the record, I did stop paying/playing. I post on the forums because I believe in the potential of the game and the people who make it, but I'm not going to sugar coat things because that helps nobody.
Why not, it is 100% valid argument in a world in which more and more games are starting to charge for upgrades, special packages, or continuing storyline.
It doesn't matter if it is an MMO, PS3, X-Box, iPhone, Android, or any of the other game platforms. Doing what you are doing (voting with your wallet), is the strongest way to tell developers, designers, corporations that it is not a future you support.
And absolutely none of it is proof that game makers need micro transactions. If game makers were going to make those out dated games with their level of quality. With todays software and technology. It would be much faster and take fewer people than it did at the time.
STO development cost was very low so they can do more with less. They also claim to have a very small staff. I really doubt that they could have done the same level quality. With fewer people cheaper with 90's technology and software. Or they would have used it.
You're not getting it.
The dev team is comparatively small at Cryptic compared to other games today. They're not comparing themselves to games back when the $15 pricing model was established.
Games today require more of everything: more bandwidth, more data, more time, more money, more marketing, more programming, more art, etc. That $15/month has remained static despite all the other factors (and was largely kept static thanks to the elephant in the room - who dares charge a larger subscription fee than WoW?)
If you think games are made with fewer people and less money, my final response in this thread is: this
The dev team is comparatively small at Cryptic compared to other games today. They're not comparing themselves to games back when the $15 pricing model was established.
Games today require more of everything: more bandwidth, more data, more time, more money, more marketing, more programming, more art, etc. That $15/month has remained static despite all the other factors (and was largely kept static thanks to the elephant in the room - who dares charge a larger subscription fee than WoW?)
If you think games are made with fewer people and less money, my final response in this thread is: this
Oh, I get it. You misquoted me saying something I didn't. No where did I ever say it was cheaper to make games today. I said.
"The software to make content is far more advanced now. You can make much more higher quality content in the same amount of time. With less people than you could in the 90's."
You're the one who warped that into saying that I said games are cheaper to make today. I just said fewer people could work faster. You then tried to tell me they couldn't I gave you to examples proving they could.
Why not, it is 100% valid argument in a world in which more and more games are starting to charge for upgrades, special packages, or continuing storyline.
It doesn't matter if it is an MMO, PS3, X-Box, iPhone, Android, or any of the other game platforms. Doing what you are doing (voting with your wallet), is the strongest way to tell developers, designers, corporations that it is not a future you support.
While you are correct it's the most powerful message you can send, it's not a valid argument to a specific criticism. It's a means to shut down discussion.
The whole point of these forums is so that the company has a chance to deliver what the customer base wants before they start voting with their wallets, and in the event that they do take that step, so the company knows why they chose to go that far.
While you are correct it's the most powerful message you can send, it's not a valid argument to a specific criticism. It's a means to shut down discussion.
The whole point of these forums is so that the company has a chance to deliver what the customer base wants before they start voting with their wallets, and in the event that they do take that step, so the company knows why they chose to go that far.
I agree with the point you are making,
When I use that argument (which I haven't I was simply commenting on it), it is not to shut down a conversation, it is to stimulate a logical, well thought out response, much like the post you have given.
Unlike many on these forums, I am open to the opinion of others.
One thing I am curious about, is the ratio of players that do utilize the C-Store, v.s. those who don't or otherwise refuse. Sadly a poll on here would not be a valid testimonial to that ratio, as I am sure (granted a guess) that only a small fraction of active subscribers actually post on / or read these forums.
Indeed, condescending non-answers aside... I'd be perfectly content to pay a $20 subscription if meant we didn't have to suffer the mercenary overpricing of the C-store.
I imagine we understand economics well enough from the perspective of the consumer enough to appeal to the concept of perceived-value... we can see what the competition is offering... and we can see what Cryptic is offering... and Cryptic does not come off well in the comparison... the exrtortionate pricing might well maximize revenue and be 'what the market will bear' and so on and so forth... but is also clearly harming Cryptic's image in the eyes of its consumers, reducing their loyalty and their likelihood of wanting to support Cryptic through amassed goodwill. That's certainly the case with me.
What truly boggles my mind is the latest spate of people saying 'I /appreciate/ the C-store letting me trade my valuable time for money to purchase content'.
You're thankful that Cryptic is letting you give them extra money? Seriously?
On one hand we have people insisting the C-store is only 'fluff'' (which is clearly is not)... and on the other hand we have those same people defending the in-game emblem costs as these items as being justified because 'you have to grind for end-game gear'. So either Cryptic are instituting a ridiculous, month-long grind for 'fluff' items... or they're selling their end-game gear for real-world money... and I tend to believe it's the latter.
People need to make their feelings known on this, because it's clearly only going to get worse.
The things being sold /are/ game-affecting, they are /not/ fluff/, it /is/ content.
The prices /are/ excessive and unjustified by any reasonable industry standard of value-for-money, and the 'in-game methods' of obtaining them are arduous and punitive to the point of not being worthy of the term.
Very good post. That bit I highlighted hit the nail on the head in all honesty.
Gaming is a consumers' market. You can cry inflation all you want, but while the most successful MMO charges $15 a month, you better have something truly remarkable if you want to rise above that trend, and this ain't it.
The dev team is comparatively small at Cryptic compared to other games today. They're not comparing themselves to games back when the $15 pricing model was established.
Games today require more of everything: more bandwidth, more data, more time, more money, more marketing, more programming, more art, etc. That $15/month has remained static despite all the other factors (and was largely kept static thanks to the elephant in the room - who dares charge a larger subscription fee than WoW?)
If you think games are made with fewer people and less money, my final response in this thread is:
this
Blizzard is setting the standard for a reason, and Cryptic are the palest immitation and still ask for the same.
It was Cryptic who said they would produce a quality Star Trek MMO in half the developement time of other companies, so maybe the people you should be directing your responses to should be them; call them to task.(Since you mentioned games taking more time )
They gave half a game in half the time, so they achieved absolutely nothing to be proud of. All these people saying "if you don't like it, leave", well LOTD is right: once everyone has done that, it's too late for the company to save it. Wouldn't you rather see the criticism before it gets to that point? I have a saying in response: If you're going to do something, do it well or don't bother.
I agree with the point you are making,
When I use that argument (which I haven't I was simply commenting on it), it is not to shut down a conversation, it is to stimulate a logical, well thought out response, much like the post you have given.
Unlike many on these forums, I am open to the opinion of others.
One thing I am curious about, is the ratio of players that do utilize the C-Store, v.s. those who don't or otherwise refuse. Sadly a poll on here would not be a valid testimonial to that ratio, as I am sure (granted a guess) that only a small fraction of active subscribers actually post on / or read these forums.
They have in the past, but not since launch i believe, used a feature that required / redirected you to a poll upon login of the launcher.
Would be nice to see this feature used for these highly controversial forum threads.
Comments
Anyone with an understanding of economics understands price is based on supply and demand. Digital distribution means in this case there is practically no cost (save initial development) and unlimited supply, which makes things hard to peg in the traditional sense. You can however look at what other companies are charging for similar products: From full AAA titles, to indie games, and other DLC, and see that Cryptic is an out-lier in terms of pricing it's content. What's harder to peg down is the extent to which C-store gouging has hurt the subscriber base. I think the majority of really intelligent players left this game a long time ago, within a couple of months from launch. What we're left with is four groups: life time subs, PvPers, people who are able to ignore the C-store, and schmucks who are willing and able to be overcharged. If you can't see that $15 is several times too much for the TOS pack compared to the pricing the rest of the industry is using you're both drinking the koolaid and you also don't understand a thing about economics yourself.
Darren, we aren't talking about monthly subs in the first place, but even then your argument is simplistic and one sided. For one, the market for MMOs has increased substantially over the last fifteen years, we still aren't out of tough economic times, fifteen dollars a month was never a fair price (for the subscribers it's like paying for a full $60 AAA title ever four months, and it's obvious that not that much work goes into those four months. Yes, there are also server fees, but as hardware and infrastructure gets more capable those are shrinking... and the hardware itself is always getting cheaper), and the psychological limit that people would be willing to pay a month for an MMO is around $15/month no matter how you rationalize it. You can also look at other industries where you can make many of the same arguments where cost hasn't gone up, or has even done down. From cars, computers, electronics, TVs, fast food, music... things aren't quite as simple as "OMG inflation, prices need to come up"
Indeed, condescending non-answers aside... I'd be perfectly content to pay a $20 subscription if meant we didn't have to suffer the mercenary overpricing of the C-store.
I imagine we understand economics well enough from the perspective of the consumer enough to appeal to the concept of perceived-value... we can see what the competition is offering... and we can see what Cryptic is offering... and Cryptic does not come off well in the comparison... the exrtortionate pricing might well maximize revenue and be 'what the market will bear' and so on and so forth... but is also clearly harming Cryptic's image in the eyes of its consumers, reducing their loyalty and their likelihood of wanting to support Cryptic through amassed goodwill. That's certainly the case with me.
What truly boggles my mind is the latest spate of people saying 'I /appreciate/ the C-store letting me trade my valuable time for money to purchase content'.
You're thankful that Cryptic is letting you give them extra money? Seriously?
On one hand we have people insisting the C-store is only 'fluff'' (which is clearly is not)... and on the other hand we have those same people defending the in-game emblem costs as these items as being justified because 'you have to grind for end-game gear'. So either Cryptic are instituting a ridiculous, month-long grind for 'fluff' items... or they're selling their end-game gear for real-world money... and I tend to believe it's the latter.
People need to make their feelings known on this, because it's clearly only going to get worse.
The things being sold /are/ game-affecting, they are /not/ fluff/, it /is/ content.
The prices /are/ excessive and unjustified by any reasonable industry standard of value-for-money, and the 'in-game methods' of obtaining them are arduous and punitive to the point of not being worthy of the term.
this x10000
You read my mind....(or my earlier posts!
Creating art for modern games is much more involved (and, I hate to break it to you but, aside from animation rigging, most mod tools aren't much further ahead in terms of speeding things - especially when the workload per art asset has grown exponentially)
You're no longer creating a few textures on a model: you're creating several textures for varying purposes, from parallax to depth & bump mapping. You're not just create one low-res texture: you're creating several for each model.
When MMOs first came out with that $15 fee: you just had simple textures and low polygon counts in graphics packages. They weren't that much different from today: most of the changes to these toolsets have been to cope with the increased workload and myriad of other tasks added.
The tools have gotten better (there's no doubt here) but the workload has increased dramatically (one of the many reasons, aside from publishers and consoles, that modding on modern games seems to have decreased since its heyday in the early 2000s).
It takes longer to make today's models on today's packages than it did to make the 1990s-era models on those era's packages - if only because the number of tasks has grown so quickly whereas the improvements have been more incremental and less profound.
I dont think whether he mods or not has any bearing on what is being shown, especially on the last few pages.
No one is saying the value of a item is not determined by the buyer. What is being said, is each time the fans of the C-store pipe in, they are only hurting themselves, in this modified supply and demand scenario.
Every time someone says" oh, come on, 15 dollars is worth it for a ship, or whatever" they give Atari/cryptic the excuse to continually increase the price. Its not conducive to a supply and demand market.
If anything, the fans of the C-store should be agreeing, that would make the prices drop to a reasonable amount for a virtual good that has no real value.
Then you have the argument "its here for good deal with it", that may be true to some extent, but wouldn't you prefer more value for the money you spend?
Seriously, it is not the first kind of theese threads, and the discussion seems to de-rail quite often...
Probably for the best. It was in the wrong forum anyways.
That is not true. Particularly not for an MMO. What do you think those servers cost that distribute the software daily, and ensure that we can battle each other in PvP daily?
That hardware might be getting better - but the demands to it are also increasing.
Every mmo i have ever played including free ones had their own equivalent. Developing games cost money. And the money from subscriptions mainly just covers normal operating expenses and keep the game in the green. Plus the cstore content also helps to attract more subscribers. Or bring back former players.
As for the lack of content at release. They were forced to release early or loose the liscense. But the game as it stands now is lightyears better now. And you dont have to pay out more money every 6 months for expansions like you do on other games (hence another reason for the cstore).
To play my own Devil's advocate here...they won't set that up anytime soon as long as people are paying money for the game play and to buy stuff out of the c-store. Why give away the cow when the people are buying the milk?
Like it or hate it the C-store is a part of this MMo....they will not do away with it just because people don't like it....the only recourse you have is to NOT BUY anything form it. Vote with your dollars. Maybe if no one buys anything for a very long time they will do something else....like charge for any new mods to the game or for the weeklys. Just face the facts, any way a company can make money they will do so until it is no longer making them money.
Example:
Microsoft puts out half finished products and then has the audacity to charge you 200-400 dollars more for a "improved/upgraded" OS that is the same as the last one except it's made to look pretty and the flaws that were found from the last run were reduced. Oh you want to print this document out...send more money.
The irony here is that despite your lecturing you obviously don't know what a normal or a normal map is. Early MMOs most certainly did not use normal mapping, and that technique only began to become widespread after Doom 3.
As far as the cost of making games, it is very common knowledge that for AAA titles the cost has gone up. Obviously some aspects have became cheaper but on the whole game development costs more. In a somewhat counter-intuitive way though, indie developers have become more enabled. It's possible to create games with lower production values at a fraction of the cost, especially now that the Unreal Engine is free to download and use (although you still pay royalties after a you bring in a certain amount of sales). Cryptic is interesting, because they like to brag about there small number of employees, and how cheap and efficient their server tech is. They even sometimes refer to themselves as an indie studio. Whether we can compare Cryptic with other AAA studios in terms of cost is something only Cryptic themselves can possibly know.
Server upkeep is a constant with or without the C-store and partially justifies the monthly sub. The C-store itself is a completely separate issue, and server upkeep should not be factored into the price of C-store transactions.
I think it will happen once STO goes F2P. I think it will happen as well, Cryptic/Atari is just waiting to see how stable CO will be on the F2P scheme. Once it stables out and they run whatever numbers and they will decide if it will work with STO or not. Personally I think STO will eventually go F2P. I also can't wait for this so I can get that monthly stipend and start using the C-Store.
It's still not a good point. Texturing isn't, and has never been the issue with rising game costs. Textures are easy to create, cheap enough to buy if that fails, and infinitely recyclable. In terms of content creation, the exponential increase in geometric complexity (and then needing to optimize that geometry) is the biggie.
Umm - you realize that any Ship with 'extra' powers (which is the only thing in the C-Store that is 'advantageous' to a Player in gameplay can now be gotten 'free' by other means (collecting Marks, Emblems, or Refering 5 friends in the case of the Galaxy-X). For the most part is IS just costumes and fluff. You don't NEED the Constitution interior to play the game or level your character.
And if you're dissatisfied with the current state game, why maintain your subscription? If you don't feel the game is worth the sub price, sto;p paying/playing.
I hate to break it to you computers has increased in speed tremendously since the 90's everything from rendering to the highly advanced software. It's much easier and faster now. Whats in games today couldn't be done in the 90's in the same amount of time or quality.
Individual textures themselves are easy but we're not longer talking about creating a face texture on an older game: we're talking about several textures nowadays with specialized purposes. Some give it color, some give it depth (normal/parallax/bump), and some give it variation. You're not just creating one texture: you're creating a plurality of textures.
That was just one example - not a summary of the playing field.
As you point out: geometry, sound production, marketing and more could all be said to be increasing quickly. (Yes, even marketing costs more as the industry becomes more competitive. Suddenly a $20 million game needs another $10 million in marketing - though this has affected the film industry worse during the time period).
Please read a credit list more frequently.
Compare team sizes between Everquest and Everquest 2, City of Heroes and Champions Online.
- Team sizes have grown
- Occupations have become more specialized
- Cost of development has increased
This clearly contradicts the hunch you have that games are made with fewer people for less money and that the increased technology has only improved computing for developers (newsflash: it also means consumers have considerably more advanced computers than before - thereby raising the bar).These statements are plain as day.
You're comparing the first MMO of each company to it's successor. Of course team sizes are going to grow. It's based on the company no longer needing to scrimp for it.
With Everquest, the whole genre was basically unexplored. With Everquest 2, the first game was such a success that of course it gets far more funding than the original.
CoH vs. CO? Come on, Cryptic was basically unknown before CoH. It may not have been the complete market success that Everquest was, but it has held it's own. And CO's funding/team is simply indicative of the success they had with CoH.
However, are you honestly saying that team sizes have decreased since the 1990s, though?
Maybe my examples weren't the best but:
If you need a valid comparison based on your criteria:
Let's compare Rifts (a first game for a company) to DDO (a third game for a well-established company, Turbine - who released both AC and AC2 before DDO).
(granted, neither are from the 1990s but there were no MMO sequels in the 90s).
If I want a properly scaled interior and bridge, I have to buy the Constitution interior. There is no alternative to that in the game. There is no way to grind for that.
Further, I agree with many others who have said grinding for a month straight just to get one thing for one character is no more of a fair exchange than paying $15-$25 for it.
You know, I'm sick of seeing this being the catch all response to anything anyone doesn't like. It doesn't address the points made, and it isn't good for the game to push people out of it. The whole point of these forums is to give feedback to Cryptic.
And for the record, I did stop paying/playing. I post on the forums because I believe in the potential of the game and the people who make it, but I'm not going to sugar coat things because that helps nobody.
And absolutely none of it is proof that game makers need micro transactions. If game makers were going to make those out dated games with their level of quality. With todays software and technology. It would be much faster and take fewer people than it did at the time.
STO development cost was very low so they can do more with less. They also claim to have a very small staff. I really doubt that they could have done the same level quality. With fewer people cheaper with 90's technology and software. Or they would have used it.
What exactly is a finished MMO?
People claim that STO was released "unfinished". Well isn't that by design? IMHO an MMO that is finished, is one no longer seeing updates, who's storyline is exhausted with no further new ideas, and is dying on the vine. The entire point of an MMO is to be unfinished in my simple mind.
Even if STO spent an other year in Development, with everything it currently has now, and included everything most people wish for, would it really be finished ?
Why not, it is 100% valid argument in a world in which more and more games are starting to charge for upgrades, special packages, or continuing storyline.
It doesn't matter if it is an MMO, PS3, X-Box, iPhone, Android, or any of the other game platforms. Doing what you are doing (voting with your wallet), is the strongest way to tell developers, designers, corporations that it is not a future you support.
The dev team is comparatively small at Cryptic compared to other games today. They're not comparing themselves to games back when the $15 pricing model was established.
Games today require more of everything: more bandwidth, more data, more time, more money, more marketing, more programming, more art, etc. That $15/month has remained static despite all the other factors (and was largely kept static thanks to the elephant in the room - who dares charge a larger subscription fee than WoW?)
If you think games are made with fewer people and less money, my final response in this thread is:
this
Oh, I get it. You misquoted me saying something I didn't. No where did I ever say it was cheaper to make games today. I said.
"The software to make content is far more advanced now. You can make much more higher quality content in the same amount of time. With less people than you could in the 90's."
You're the one who warped that into saying that I said games are cheaper to make today. I just said fewer people could work faster. You then tried to tell me they couldn't I gave you to examples proving they could.
While you are correct it's the most powerful message you can send, it's not a valid argument to a specific criticism. It's a means to shut down discussion.
The whole point of these forums is so that the company has a chance to deliver what the customer base wants before they start voting with their wallets, and in the event that they do take that step, so the company knows why they chose to go that far.
I agree with the point you are making,
When I use that argument (which I haven't I was simply commenting on it), it is not to shut down a conversation, it is to stimulate a logical, well thought out response, much like the post you have given.
Unlike many on these forums, I am open to the opinion of others.
One thing I am curious about, is the ratio of players that do utilize the C-Store, v.s. those who don't or otherwise refuse. Sadly a poll on here would not be a valid testimonial to that ratio, as I am sure (granted a guess) that only a small fraction of active subscribers actually post on / or read these forums.
Very good post. That bit I highlighted hit the nail on the head in all honesty.
Gaming is a consumers' market. You can cry inflation all you want, but while the most successful MMO charges $15 a month, you better have something truly remarkable if you want to rise above that trend, and this ain't it.
Blizzard is setting the standard for a reason, and Cryptic are the palest immitation and still ask for the same.
It was Cryptic who said they would produce a quality Star Trek MMO in half the developement time of other companies, so maybe the people you should be directing your responses to should be them; call them to task.(Since you mentioned games taking more time
They gave half a game in half the time, so they achieved absolutely nothing to be proud of. All these people saying "if you don't like it, leave", well LOTD is right: once everyone has done that, it's too late for the company to save it. Wouldn't you rather see the criticism before it gets to that point? I have a saying in response: If you're going to do something, do it well or don't bother.
They have in the past, but not since launch i believe, used a feature that required / redirected you to a poll upon login of the launcher.
Would be nice to see this feature used for these highly controversial forum threads.