It's all a money grab. Playing STO is a top-dollar expenditure, and one receives in exchange, a content-light experience. My monthly subscription pay's for developers to create content, which is then, only available for an additional outlay of my personal wealth.
Regardless of being viewed as a valid business practice, it lacks common decency; which is something I'd pay for.
If the game is a bad bargain for what you're getting, cancel your sub. Again 'money-grab' is nonsensical here. The whole game is a money grab. The only reason they made it was to make money. The game was created to take money out of your bank account, and put it in Atari's. Its a capitalist venture.
Atari's desire to make money is balanced against your willingness to hand over your money. If enough people refuse to hand over the money, they'll make changes. As long as many of us are happily paying for what STO has to offer, the few people complaining (especially those who are complaining while at the same time still paying) are going to be ignored.
But sitting around and arguing that a corporation should act like something other than a corporation is a big waste of time.
Somthing has come up a few times in this thread that needs to be addressed.
The c-store ships are either fluff and can rightly be put in the store or they are endgame awesome that should be analogous to raiding armor in other mmo. It cant be both.
If they are fluff that isnt such a big deal then they cost too many emblems.
If they are endgame awesome then they are underpowered and not worth the time investment. Also cryptic broke thier promise to not put gameplay effecting items in the store.
Im sorry stormie but your damned if you do, damned if you dont on this topic.
Because of this rift i will never be happy with ships in the store at all.
Actually, what we promised was that if an item affected game play was added to the C-Store, it would be available in-game, through in-game means as well. I feel as though we've lived up to that promise.
Did you just reference JBoots? Wow. You played EQ? At the risk of going off topic ... what class did you play? For how long did you play? Like I played hardcore until my guild kind of got bored with Plane of Time, but we were behind the curve on that so ... wow, I think there were a few of those mini expansions out by then
The getting to know Stormy portion of the post:
I played from Velious (I was a late comer) through Gates of Discord, on Zebuxoruk. My character was a Dark Elf Wizard named Seraphino Medsalot, and I soloed through most of the game (Probably the single most punishing thing I've done in my career as a gamer). Once I reached end game, I started leading some raids for my guild, which were rather successful.
Maybe it is all perception. In STO, the grind is too transparent for people? They don't get the illusion that there could be a fast way to acquire an item? (Except spending money.) I mean, as you said - some raid noob could get exactly the cool item everyone wants on his first try!
That luck does not exist in STO. Maybe there needs to be a super-duper-rare category of items that drops 1 % of the time very rare items drop, and are ship requisition tokens?
End game is something we're starting to talk a little more about around here. We all think we can do better, and you might be hearing some news regarding this in the not too distant future.
If you don't want to spend the time to grind the Emblems then buy these items from the C-Store. Most MMOs don't give you this option for their special loot. You have to grind for everything and that's the only way that you can get it.
It's a good balance really. Have a job and not much time? Buy the thing you want from the C-Store. No job and plenty of time? Grind for the item that you want.
BTW, the grind is supposed to be steep. They want you to use the C-Store. Cryptic is a business, without money to pay their employees they will go out of business.
Believe it or not, the grind is supposed to be steep for other reasons. A big part of why people play MMOs is the same reason people play Pokemon. It's the "Gotta catch 'em all" theory. You have several hooks in a MMO to keep people interested:
Social Aspects
People make friends when they play MMOs.
People don't like to lose contact with their friends.
Leaving an MMO in some ways is like leaving a family to social players.
Achievements
Sought after items (JBoots, that really awesome ship...)
Character Power Advancement (Gaining levels, new powers and abilities, high end equipment)
Achievements specifically are meant to be very hard to attain. Once you've reached level cap, you need to start looking for other things to keep your players interested. This is why we add new playable content, create new items, ships, and gear, and we make them difficult to attain. It's so you always have something to achieve. So, why would we sell sought after items, ships etc. on the C-store?
See, this illustrates exactly the type of player that many posters in this thread are ignoring. For people to say "you can get all X emblems from the daily in just a few hours" completely leaves someone like MGDawson behind. I hope you weigh in on the actual cost of 500 emblems, MGDawson, because right now it looks like you are the perfect example of why it is too steep. Sure, you'll get there eventually, but not in any sort of timely fashion.
For players like this. Despite what ever MGDawson personally feels about the C-store, they now have the option of spending money in exchange for time. Users like this may either complete the emblem grind, or, they may purchase the item from the C-Store. This player now has an alternative way to get that shiny new ship they've always wanted. In exchange for the time they would spend playing the game trying to earn this item, they can choose the instant gratification option.
Also, the argument isn't about the Emblem cost in and of itself. It's that paying you guys real money for fake items is actually a sweeter deal. Now, you mention raiding and grinding in other MMO's for similar gear. What if they made that SAME gear available via a store purchase with real money across the whole account? You expect us to believe that wouldn't be greedy by developers? THAT is the argument.
Here's another thought, I've been playing MMOs for close to 20 years now. The standard fee for a one month subscription for an MMO has remained at $14.99 USD for at minimum the last 12 years, possibly longer.
At the same time, the cost of living has continued to rise. I used to be able to go see a movie for $4.50 if I went to a matinee showing, and avoided the concession stand. Now, I'm lucky if I can see one for $9. I'll spend $15 on admission alone to go see an IMAX movie.
The cost of gasoline has almost doubled. Milk and produce is much more expensive than it used to be as well, and don't even get me started on rent.
My MMO subscription fee has remained the same however, despite the fact that prices for the infrastructure and people required to build, maintain, and improve my MMO have continued to rise. So I would say that if you're not raising the cost of my subscription, while providing an alternate way for me and others to get the items that we want in order to supplement the higher costs of running an MMO, while at the same time allowing me to continue to play the game, and earn the items I want in the same way I always have, for the same cost I always have, than no. This is not a greedy act.
You might disagree with me, and you have the right to do so. However, I think it remains reasonable, considering that an MMO is still the best bang for your entertainment dollar.
I disagree. 500 emblems is not steep and is achievable within one month. This ensures Cryptic gets a month long subscription versus the worse case scenario of an inactive account for the item they have spent money and time developing.
Not unfair at all.
i take it you don't have a job? and can play as long as you "can" ! for at-least half the player base of sto can't put in more then 2hours of play, you can't farm that many emblems then.
kinda have to agree with people going "no appreciation" be glad you can get this stuff via ingame grinding ... dont whine bout it like spoiled brats ...
yes very true we have to be glad that some items of C-store can be bought by emblems! but take it from me that 500 emblem prize is only going to go UP ! yes my friend it will WHY well read and start crying!
the more missions get added that reward "emblems" the higher the prize is gonna get. cus if that not the case then lets say in a years time you can get that same item in less then a week?! do you really think CRYPTIC is gonna allow that i don't think so.
so as hard as we "cry for help" now its only gonna get worse.
Would it be possible to add additional sources for Emblem income?
Also, anyone have an exact list of how many emblems are obtainable per day by just doing dailys? Ships bought for emblems, should be unlocked account-wide.
You might disagree with me, and you have the right to do so. However, I think it remains reasonable, considering that an MMO is still the best bang for your entertainment dollar.
I disagree here. Pen & Paper roleplaying games can be even cheaper. You can buy some core rules and supplements around the cost of 100 $ or so, and you can play for years with a group of 6 players or so.
It is a little more convenient, of course. Since you really need those players in your vicinity and stuff. You can't just go online and start PuGging or something.
Mustrum "Of course, I spent a lot more money on D&D and other games than that" RIdcully
Also, anyone have an exact list of how many emblems are obtainable per day by just doing dailys?
STOWiki has a nice list of what content awards Emblems.
Keep in mind;
Emblems can be exchanged on a 1:1 basis for Marks of Exploration, Marks of Honor, or Marks of Valor from either the U.S.S. T'Kumbra or I.K.S. Jorn at Battle Group Omega.
Here's another thought, I've been playing MMOs for close to 20 years now. The standard fee for a one month subscription for an MMO has remained at $14.99 USD for at minimum the last 12 years, possibly longer.
At the same time, the cost of living has continued to rise. I used to be able to go see a movie for $4.50 if I went to a matinee showing, and avoided the concession stand. Now, I'm lucky if I can see one for $9. I'll spend $15 on admission alone to go see an IMAX movie.
The cost of gasoline has almost doubled. Milk and produce is much more expensive than it used to be as well, and don't even get me started on rent.
My MMO subscription fee has remained the same however, despite the fact that prices for the infrastructure and people required to build, maintain, and improve my MMO have continued to rise. So I would say that if you're not raising the cost of my subscription, while providing an alternate way for me and others to get the items that we want in order to supplement the higher costs of running an MMO, while at the same time allowing me to continue to play the game, and earn the items I want in the same way I always have, for the same cost I always have, than no. This is not a greedy act.
You might disagree with me, and you have the right to do so. However, I think it remains reasonable, considering that an MMO is still the best bang for your entertainment dollar.
Thanks,
Stormshade
And yet, this is the price that you set. You can't ask for an ammount with one breath, then complain it's not enough in the next. If the sub fee is not enough for you, I'd suggest you don't have enough subscriptions. Case in point would be Blizzard.
Before people will come to play your game, there has to be something for them to play. It's common knowledge now that people fled in droves in the middle of last year, and before they come back, there needs to be something for them to pay for.
Quite simply you're fleecing for the Star Trek brand. If you weren't you'd be happy for all the familiar Trek things to be in game, and you'de sell the Cryptic designs in store, but you know it's the IP the people will pay for and not your stuff.
To say that the current grind for emblems gives a sense of achievement in getting that 500 for a ship is ludicrous. If anything it's a sense of relief that the torment is over. That is not fun gaming, it's a chore. If it's really the players' sense of achievement you're worried about, put some decent new STFs in the game and offer ship tokens as rewards for elite mode completions.
Something (whatever it may be) to strive for as reward for playing is what's required in STO, not endless grinds for data samples or emblems.
Was it 150 missions in total for this game, someone said? The old saying is, you get what you pay for, but there's always an exception to the rule, and STO is it. Foundry is not your saviour either. My sub doesn't go to Darren Kitlor or Kirkfat or any of the others who'll use it.
Anyway I'm done with the negativity. I've only got a few days left and tbh I think those that argue in favour of the C store are probably right. Just suck it and carry on.
You might disagree with me, and you have the right to do so. However, I think it remains reasonable, considering that an MMO is still the best bang for your entertainment dollar.
Wrong, on two counts:
One, an MMO needs content to provide said entertainment. This game tries - very unsuccessfully, I might add - to call an emblem grind "entertainment." That very same grind you claim is acceptable because it's been done before is the same grind that has caused nearly every MMO since WoW to fail. People are finally realizing that "grind" doesn't equal "entertainment." You saying it is doesn't make it so.
Secondly, I paid less for my Wii with Zelda: Twilight Princess than I have for this game, and I've gotten so much more entertainment. This game is no more massive and barely more multiplayer than Zelda, for quite a bit more money, with a quarter the entertainment. Thus, you're quite literally incorrect in it being the best entertainment value. For less money, I bought the system and the game than I paid just for STO.
Here's another thought, I've been playing MMOs for close to 20 years now. The standard fee for a one month subscription for an MMO has remained at $14.99 USD for at minimum the last 12 years, possibly longer.
According to Dollartimes.com, $14.99 in 1999's money, is $19.75 in today's.
Can we have the full game + all C-Store content for $19.99 a month, please?
End game is something we're starting to talk a little more about around here. We all think we can do better, and you might be hearing some news regarding this in the not too distant future.
Ehm... please don't tell me your only "now" starting to talk about endgame ?! my god as MMO end game must be on your mind from the start! MMO's are not games you play like single players, wen you get to the end and then toss away the game! so epic fail on cryptic's part. the lack of end game this game has is so big, if you guys did not came-up with the weekly missions i would have uninstalled the game months ago! even wen i was a lifer.
lucky for cryptic i have a bad habit "hope i wrote that correct" i level allot of chars in my MMO's, i have 8 in STO, my MMO i played before STO i had 14 chars on two accounts no less but that aside.
Here's another thought, I've been playing MMOs for close to 20 years now. The standard fee for a one month subscription for an MMO has remained at $14.99 USD for at minimum the last 12 years, possibly longer.
At the same time, the cost of living has continued to rise. I used to be able to go see a movie for $4.50 if I went to a matinee showing, and avoided the concession stand. Now, I'm lucky if I can see one for $9. I'll spend $15 on admission alone to go see an IMAX movie.
The cost of gasoline has almost doubled. Milk and produce is much more expensive than it used to be as well, and don't even get me started on rent.
My MMO subscription fee has remained the same however, despite the fact that prices for the infrastructure and people required to build, maintain, and improve my MMO have continued to rise. So I would say that if you're not raising the cost of my subscription, while providing an alternate way for me and others to get the items that we want in order to supplement the higher costs of running an MMO, while at the same time allowing me to continue to play the game, and earn the items I want in the same way I always have, for the same cost I always have, than no. This is not a greedy act.
You might disagree with me, and you have the right to do so. However, I think it remains reasonable, considering that an MMO is still the best bang for your entertainment dollar.
Thanks,
Stormshade
Yes this statement is very true! most other MMO developers have the same problem, YET you see them work as hard as before, why to keep the well needed player base. i don't see other mmo's go nuts over a C-store like thing! NO better yet take "Aion" monthly sub, two expansions FREE per year lots of things get added lots of changes get made all with the same monthly payment from there player base! (no i do not like aion just pointing out a fact) Lineage2 does the same "free expansions". fact is lots of other MMO's do it like that.
and what does cryptic "monthly sub" in co-exist with "C-Store" ... and what expansions do we gonna get? or what free large update are we gonna get? whats the next big thing C-Store special missions? or C-Store new planets to visit? i'm guessing here so slap me wen i go to far. "don't slap me to hard tho i might bite lol"
lol never gonna happen, no one will buy from the C-store then
personally i would love to see this happen tho, 500 emblems for account wide item fair deal!
lol never gonna happen, no one will buy from the C-store then
personally i would love to see this happen tho, 500 emblems for account wide item fair deal!
I believe people would still buy items in the C-Store. The "must have nao" crowd would still be buying them in the C-Store even if the 500 Emblems unlocked it account wide.
I believe people would still buy items in the C-Store. The "must have nao" crowd would still be buying them in the C-Store even if the 500 Emblems unlocked it account wide.
well i'm sure your wrong there, i'm a must have it all type and if i can get it .... nah your right C-store faster why do i always try to fool my self.
I believe people would still buy items in the C-Store. The "must have nao" crowd would still be buying them in the C-Store even if the 500 Emblems unlocked it account wide.
Honestly, I think it'd be better for their business. All the C-Store ships are interesting, but some are "I want it!!" and some are "ehh, it'd be kinda cool." I'd use emblems on the novelty ships (e.g. D'Kyr, since my main doesn't fly science vessels) and buy outright the more interesting ones (MVAM, Galaxy-X, the retrofits, etc.).
Otherwise, I wouldn't get the novelty ships at all and maybe split buying half the ones I really want and get emblems for rest. Don't forget that ship slots are a net 200 Atari Tokens a pop.
Believe it or not, the grind is supposed to be steep for other reasons. A big part of why people play MMOs is the same reason people play Pokemon. It's the "Gotta catch 'em all" theory. You have several hooks in a MMO to keep people interested:
...
Achievements specifically are meant to be very hard to attain.
But what about the poeple who don't even want to play anymore, because of the terrible STO grind? Like I said earlier, it may be better than other grinds, but that doesn't make it good. I'm all for makin gus earn our stuff, but I don't want people to earn it through something that they hate. To illustrate:
To say that the current grind for emblems gives a sense of achievement in getting that 500 for a ship is ludicrous. If anything it's a sense of relief that the torment is over. That is not fun gaming, it's a chore. If it's really the players' sense of achievement you're worried about, put some decent new STFs in the game and offer ship tokens as rewards for elite mode completions.
For players like this. Despite what ever MGDawson personally feels about the C-store, they now have the option of spending money in exchange for time. Users like this may either complete the emblem grind, or, they may purchase the item from the C-Store. This player now has an alternative way to get that shiny new ship they've always wanted. In exchange for the time they would spend playing the game trying to earn this item, they can choose the instant gratification option.
Here's another thought, I've been playing MMOs for close to 20 years now. The standard fee for a one month subscription for an MMO has remained at $14.99 USD for at minimum the last 12 years, possibly longer.
This is true, and I've purchased a great many things at the C Store. The ships have always seemed iffy to me though. Make the grind better, or make the 500 unlock for all characters. At minimum, if someone does have the "gotta catch 'em all" mentality, but doesn't want to pay, they've got to grind for FIVE ships. What if they have a second character. That's TEN ships. That's RIDICULOUS.
Besides, you yourself (Cryptic et al.) have said that most players are casual, not even beyond Captain rank. Sure, they can't even use the ships yet, but when they do, what makes you think they'll be able to grind the 500, if they want more than the 1 token ship?
According to Dollartimes.com, $14.99 in 1999's money, is $19.75 in today's.
Can we have the full game + all C-Store content for $19.99 a month, please?
This makes sense. But consumers are an odd crowd, and MMOs are just $15/month, and that's that. Even if STO had gone $20/month from the start, people would complain.
Actually, what we promised was that if an item affected game play was added to the C-Store, it would be available in-game, through in-game means as well. I feel as though we've lived up to that promise.
well actually you or mr Stalh said in the past that anything added in the C store with game effect changing should have something equivalent available in game...the same object available through in game means came way after and we are still not there...how can i get the Excelsior T5 or the Ferengi playable character via in game means then?
But i know you already told us to leave all things said in the past where they belong and to look forward...basically you asked us to forget whatever was said and focus on what you are saying now... difficult to build a trusting relationship in these conditions when you keep changing the rules.
End game is something we're starting to talk a little more about around here. We all think we can do better, and you might be hearing some news regarding this in the not too distant future.
whoa.... finally another great revelation from Mr Shade(i really enjoyed the last one when you said that other companies were known to make good story line etc and cryptic specialty was to make the best custom character creator) ...i believe a lot of players complained about this non existent end game...wait, when was that again... oh yeah just after launch
Here's another thought, I've been playing MMOs for close to 20 years now. The standard fee for a one month subscription for an MMO has remained at $14.99 USD for at minimum the last 12 years, possibly longer.
At the same time, the cost of living has continued to rise. I used to be able to go see a movie for $4.50 if I went to a matinee showing, and avoided the concession stand. Now, I'm lucky if I can see one for $9. I'll spend $15 on admission alone to go see an IMAX movie.
The cost of gasoline has almost doubled. Milk and produce is much more expensive than it used to be as well, and don't even get me started on rent.
My MMO subscription fee has remained the same however, despite the fact that prices for the infrastructure and people required to build, maintain, and improve my MMO have continued to rise. So I would say that if you're not raising the cost of my subscription, while providing an alternate way for me and others to get the items that we want in order to supplement the higher costs of running an MMO, while at the same time allowing me to continue to play the game, and earn the items I want in the same way I always have, for the same cost I always have, than no. This is not a greedy act.
You might disagree with me, and you have the right to do so. However, I think it remains reasonable, considering that an MMO is still the best bang for your entertainment dollar.
Thanks,
Stormshade
i think you forget that your 3 MMOs are made with the same engine, same core development team which cut the cost, that over the last 10 years, internet connection have drop price or at least you get much more for the same buck, data storage are dead as cheap etc...
Here's the thing that irks me, that I am still spending money on STO month after month, when I've done my part to support this great game.
I mean:
Collectors edition
some 3-6 months of subscription fees
lifetime subscription
every uniform and off duty pack on the c store except motion picture
enterprise bundle
numerous bridge packs and ship skins
and i'll be spending still more as I'm going to have to get MVAM for my vice admiral tactical officer and whatever else comes down the pipe from cryptic.
Since I have no desire to do the endless grind I'm left paying yet more for the in game things I might want it's annoying.
and i'll be spending still more as I'm going to have to get MVAM for my vice admiral tactical officer and whatever else comes down the pipe from cryptic.
Since I have no desire to do the endless grind I'm left paying yet more for the in game things I might want it's annoying.
1) Why do you 'have to' get MVAM? Has somebody got a gun to your head?
2) You spoke rightly when you said you don't desire to grind for the ship. So yeah, if you're not willing to grind the emblems, and you want it, paying for it is your other option.
I find this to be sort of like saying that you think popcorn and a soda should be included in the price of your movie ticket. I mean, for a 3-D movie it can be what, $20? And if you're like me, you tend to go to the same theater every time. So you've probably spent a lot of money there.
You're entitled to your opinion that as a thank you for your business, the theater should throw in popcorn and a coke with your movie ticket. But the odds of them doing it for you are small. And the odds of them doing it for everyone are infinitesimal.
They've already explained that time spent developing C-Store time is time 'off the books', i.e. if they weren't charging for these items, you wouldn't be getting them at all. You're entitled to not like that, but it doesn't change reality.
games should be fun, spending months to get an item is not fun, especially when getting the item requires repetitive un interesting content.
when are companies going to remember they are making games, not boredom simulators.
in a fun game what you can do with the new weapon or vehicle is the rewad, not getting it.
when you get a rocket launcher in halo it`s not a case of OMG i finally unlocked a rocket launcher after a month of play.
instead it`s OMG when I shoot his thing it blows things up and they spiral through the air in beautiful chaotic carnage!
these special ships are a carrot on a stick right now, and while that might keep people spending a monthly fee, it also creates a very stale, anti social grind community that will one day look up from the keyboard, look around and say hey where did everybody go.
Its really very simple. People go through MMO content far, far faster than it can be produced. If you're going to keep people around from month to month on a subscription model, you're going to need various types of timesinks, which involve some type of grinding. Good MMOs disguise the grind really well. Others do a very poor job of hiding it. Either way, there really is no other option. Even Blizzard, with their mega-millions, can't produce story-based quest content as fast as players can rip through it, let alone a company the size of Cryptic.
The only real option to grinding is going to a full on microtransaction model, where everything is just for sale, from episodes to items you want. They don't have to worry about keeping the subscriptions rolling, so they can just crank out stuff to sell.
I think all of us would love an MMO that provided a literally endless stream of deeply immersive story content. Unfortunately that will never exist, because the team involved wouldn't be able to turn a profit.
If you prefer the second option above, let Cryptic know that you'd like to see STO follow CO in going f2p.
You're entitled to your opinion that as a thank you for your business, the theater should throw in popcorn and a coke with your movie ticket. But the odds of them doing it for you are small. And the odds of them doing it for everyone are infinitesimal.
It's a good analogy, for the most part. I would add, however, that there are many businesses that have incentive or reward loyalty programs. Yes, STO has the vet rewards. Perhaps the option of a C Store ship could be added as a 500 or 600 day reward?
Additionally, the theater does not say "watch 50 previews OR pay $5 and you get a coke." It only has the one option. And even if it did, the 500 emblem grind is nowhere near as fun. It's more like being forced to test every theater seat for good viewability as they play the same series of test images every time you change a seat.
Edit: which is where your "good MMOs disguise the grind" comes in. Hopefully the fabled exploration revamp, or a currency streamline will alleviate the 500 grind issue.
In the end it comes down to this: the two options are C Store and a grind. How long should that grind take? Should it be a few weeks for a power player? Should it be half a year for a casual player? I would argue that everyone should have the potential to get at least one ship in about a month to three months at most, without buying it. That includes weekend only players.
First id like to thank stormshade for wading in on this topic, in clearly hostile territory.
For me the issue isnt the cstore, if people want to buy the ships cryptic arnt going to say no. As has been pointed out the emblem cost is deliberately high to make people want to buy it. The real issue is now its a gameplay thing and it stinks.
Stormie you say its an option but it really isnt. The comparison to 10 year old games aside, the only alternative is to go here kill x/x times and repeat repeat repeat repeat. It serves to highlight the worse aspects of your game. When so many strides have been made in good content, to have to go backwards and melt our brains with repetitive boredem and then claim it is content is just plain insulting.
What really needs to be done is to offer the choice ingame of any content by emblemising it all. Players can then play and have fun, whilst also working towards a long term goal. Or they can buy it. Only then will players have a choice.
PvP dailies (Capture and Arena) 3 each win or lose = 6
I know for a fact that I can get at least 9 Emblems a day in under 2 hours. More like 10-12 really. Not counting Fleet Action Dailies (though I'd love to see Breaking the Planet and Starbase 24 get emblem options)
So 10 emblems every day for 50 days is around 100 total hours of gameplay. As a max level character wth else are you doing in that time?
umm not everyone is on everyday. a 50 days could take 6+ months to some people. it is mute how many you can max out on per day, if you dont play everyday.. some people have lives/families/jobs, girlfriends, i know these things (especially the last ont) may be alien to the small number of people who play everyday for hours upon hours...
If you want to play on an alt don't complain about grinding Emblems. You're choosing an alt over the main. If you want the emblems grind them. Because frankly there's nothing else to do at VA other than grind dailies just about all of which give emblems.
It comes down to this: Is 100+ hours (across multiple characters) worth 25 dollars. Even if you got paid waitress money (around 3 bucks an hour YMMV) you'd have paid for the thing 6 times over.
It's not that unreasonable. I've bought a couple ships off the C-Store (granted there's no in-game way to get the NX/Connie and wasn't a way to get the Excelsior at the time) but I bought my Nebula with Marks that I'd been saving up since they were an option.
what i find unreaonable, is that 200 should be reinstated for a per character purchase, 500 should be account wide...
Don't trash and spend stuff. Ever. Just in case. That's the way I played and I casually worked up over 400 marks. I fully outfitted my ship (Luna-Class) and had 200 left over just sitting there when the Nebula was announced. Same with emblems I have 500 now. I like the Dkyr but I'm saving and casually grinding because I know that there'll be something else I like as much or more down the road.
Wait just a sec: isnt your job to relay the community feedback to the Devs? If so, then why are you trying to convince us of anything? Whether you happen to agree with it or not, if there are people in the community who think the current set up isnt fair then your job is to relay that info to the the Devs, not to try to convince them that they are wrong.
And just in case your wondering, I agree with what you said. But that doesnt change the point I'm making.
Its is only the only reasonable option if you are impatient and have to have it right now. The idea behind the in game cost is they want players to play the game for a long time, if you could get it in a week or two of casual grinding, that really wouldn't meat the business goal, to offset the lost C-Store sale with higher player retain-age.
Most of the emblem giving dailies also have scanables in them now, and you also get loot drops. I play very casually (less then 5 hours a week typically, more when a new feature or episode launches) and I gave up on the exchange because despite trying my best to try and set what was, as far as I could tell, a fair price, most of my stuff wouldn't sell, so I vendor almost all my unused drops. I'm swimming in credits, and have had to buy some rare particles to make stuff, and I'm still swimming in credits. I'm not seeing the catch 22, sorry.
the catch 22 is for the last month an a half i have been going out of my way to try and scan any particle i come across, i have pleanty of common chronometric wave's, however i was only able to bone up 3 chronometric particles, thus, it is much easier and time efficient to get emblems rather than play the luck game with scans.... that is the catch 22.
At the end of the day unless you want something right this minute there is no reason to pay for it.
For the record I know I want MVAM, I haven't decided if I can be paitent or not yet, but I don't feel that griding for it is an unreasonable time commitment or option (I have about 23 emblems as I recall).
I wouldn't be sad if they offered more emblem dailies at the same quality level as Deferi and Neutral Zone dailies, so I could skip B'tran, and if they would revamp Fleet Actions so anything other than Klingon Scout Force didn't make the 3 emblems feel not worth it.
god i hate getting invovled with these discussion lol...
Believe it or not, the grind is supposed to be steep for other reasons.
I agree with the bulk of what you've said, but this one piece I want to comment on.
The idea that it should be "hard" to attain certain things is fine. But "tedious" is not the same thing as hard. If you want to make challenging content, or simply enough engaging content to get the emblems, great!
But if it's just doing the exact same "grindy" thing over and over and over again, there is no achievement involved, just time and tedium.
That's why I've never achieved certain rep items in another MMO I play: I refuse to just wander the landscape mindlessly killing the same mobs repeatedly to gain the rep. Give a me a variety of quests (even repeatables, as long as it doesn't have to be repeated too often) and I'll chug away at rep or emblems happily. Make it a tedious and I will never get there.
Playing a game is supposed to be fun; mindless grinding isn't fun. Maybe it's time for an MMO to innovate a little as far as what constitutes the "grind" for top stuff. STO is innovating in other areas, how about this one too?
Disclaimer: I'm a preorder customer who hasn't even hit Captain yet (lots of characters, so you've made some C-store bucks off me for character slots already), so the "grind" doesn't affect me yet. Consider this a preemptive strike in hopes that it will be modified by the time I get there. That should give you plenty of time.
Comments
If the game is a bad bargain for what you're getting, cancel your sub. Again 'money-grab' is nonsensical here. The whole game is a money grab. The only reason they made it was to make money. The game was created to take money out of your bank account, and put it in Atari's. Its a capitalist venture.
Atari's desire to make money is balanced against your willingness to hand over your money. If enough people refuse to hand over the money, they'll make changes. As long as many of us are happily paying for what STO has to offer, the few people complaining (especially those who are complaining while at the same time still paying) are going to be ignored.
But sitting around and arguing that a corporation should act like something other than a corporation is a big waste of time.
Actually, what we promised was that if an item affected game play was added to the C-Store, it would be available in-game, through in-game means as well. I feel as though we've lived up to that promise.
The getting to know Stormy portion of the post:
I played from Velious (I was a late comer) through Gates of Discord, on Zebuxoruk. My character was a Dark Elf Wizard named Seraphino Medsalot, and I soloed through most of the game (Probably the single most punishing thing I've done in my career as a gamer). Once I reached end game, I started leading some raids for my guild, which were rather successful.
End game is something we're starting to talk a little more about around here. We all think we can do better, and you might be hearing some news regarding this in the not too distant future.
Believe it or not, the grind is supposed to be steep for other reasons. A big part of why people play MMOs is the same reason people play Pokemon. It's the "Gotta catch 'em all" theory. You have several hooks in a MMO to keep people interested:
Achievements specifically are meant to be very hard to attain. Once you've reached level cap, you need to start looking for other things to keep your players interested. This is why we add new playable content, create new items, ships, and gear, and we make them difficult to attain. It's so you always have something to achieve. So, why would we sell sought after items, ships etc. on the C-store?
For players like this. Despite what ever MGDawson personally feels about the C-store, they now have the option of spending money in exchange for time. Users like this may either complete the emblem grind, or, they may purchase the item from the C-Store. This player now has an alternative way to get that shiny new ship they've always wanted. In exchange for the time they would spend playing the game trying to earn this item, they can choose the instant gratification option.
Here's another thought, I've been playing MMOs for close to 20 years now. The standard fee for a one month subscription for an MMO has remained at $14.99 USD for at minimum the last 12 years, possibly longer.
At the same time, the cost of living has continued to rise. I used to be able to go see a movie for $4.50 if I went to a matinee showing, and avoided the concession stand. Now, I'm lucky if I can see one for $9. I'll spend $15 on admission alone to go see an IMAX movie.
The cost of gasoline has almost doubled. Milk and produce is much more expensive than it used to be as well, and don't even get me started on rent.
My MMO subscription fee has remained the same however, despite the fact that prices for the infrastructure and people required to build, maintain, and improve my MMO have continued to rise. So I would say that if you're not raising the cost of my subscription, while providing an alternate way for me and others to get the items that we want in order to supplement the higher costs of running an MMO, while at the same time allowing me to continue to play the game, and earn the items I want in the same way I always have, for the same cost I always have, than no. This is not a greedy act.
You might disagree with me, and you have the right to do so. However, I think it remains reasonable, considering that an MMO is still the best bang for your entertainment dollar.
Thanks,
Stormshade
i take it you don't have a job? and can play as long as you "can" ! for at-least half the player base of sto can't put in more then 2hours of play, you can't farm that many emblems then.
yes very true we have to be glad that some items of C-store can be bought by emblems! but take it from me that 500 emblem prize is only going to go UP ! yes my friend it will WHY well read and start crying!
the more missions get added that reward "emblems" the higher the prize is gonna get. cus if that not the case then lets say in a years time you can get that same item in less then a week?! do you really think CRYPTIC is gonna allow that
so as hard as we "cry for help" now its only gonna get worse.
Also, anyone have an exact list of how many emblems are obtainable per day by just doing dailys? Ships bought for emblems, should be unlocked account-wide.
It is a little more convenient, of course. Since you really need those players in your vicinity and stuff. You can't just go online and start PuGging or something.
Mustrum "Of course, I spent a lot more money on D&D and other games than that" RIdcully
STOWiki has a nice list of what content awards Emblems.
Keep in mind;
And yet, this is the price that you set. You can't ask for an ammount with one breath, then complain it's not enough in the next. If the sub fee is not enough for you, I'd suggest you don't have enough subscriptions. Case in point would be Blizzard.
Before people will come to play your game, there has to be something for them to play. It's common knowledge now that people fled in droves in the middle of last year, and before they come back, there needs to be something for them to pay for.
Quite simply you're fleecing for the Star Trek brand. If you weren't you'd be happy for all the familiar Trek things to be in game, and you'de sell the Cryptic designs in store, but you know it's the IP the people will pay for and not your stuff.
To say that the current grind for emblems gives a sense of achievement in getting that 500 for a ship is ludicrous. If anything it's a sense of relief that the torment is over. That is not fun gaming, it's a chore. If it's really the players' sense of achievement you're worried about, put some decent new STFs in the game and offer ship tokens as rewards for elite mode completions.
Something (whatever it may be) to strive for as reward for playing is what's required in STO, not endless grinds for data samples or emblems.
Was it 150 missions in total for this game, someone said? The old saying is, you get what you pay for, but there's always an exception to the rule, and STO is it. Foundry is not your saviour either. My sub doesn't go to Darren Kitlor or Kirkfat or any of the others who'll use it.
Anyway I'm done with the negativity. I've only got a few days left and tbh I think those that argue in favour of the C store are probably right. Just suck it and carry on.
Wrong, on two counts:
One, an MMO needs content to provide said entertainment. This game tries - very unsuccessfully, I might add - to call an emblem grind "entertainment." That very same grind you claim is acceptable because it's been done before is the same grind that has caused nearly every MMO since WoW to fail. People are finally realizing that "grind" doesn't equal "entertainment." You saying it is doesn't make it so.
Secondly, I paid less for my Wii with Zelda: Twilight Princess than I have for this game, and I've gotten so much more entertainment. This game is no more massive and barely more multiplayer than Zelda, for quite a bit more money, with a quarter the entertainment. Thus, you're quite literally incorrect in it being the best entertainment value. For less money, I bought the system and the game than I paid just for STO.
According to Dollartimes.com, $14.99 in 1999's money, is $19.75 in today's.
Can we have the full game + all C-Store content for $19.99 a month, please?
Ehm... please don't tell me your only "now" starting to talk about endgame ?! my god as MMO end game must be on your mind from the start! MMO's are not games you play like single players, wen you get to the end and then toss away the game! so epic fail on cryptic's part. the lack of end game this game has is so big, if you guys did not came-up with the weekly missions i would have uninstalled the game months ago! even wen i was a lifer.
lucky for cryptic i have a bad habit "hope i wrote that correct" i level allot of chars in my MMO's, i have 8 in STO, my MMO i played before STO i had 14 chars on two accounts no less
Yes this statement is very true! most other MMO developers have the same problem, YET you see them work as hard as before, why to keep the well needed player base. i don't see other mmo's go nuts over a C-store like thing! NO better yet take "Aion" monthly sub, two expansions FREE per year lots of things get added lots of changes get made all with the same monthly payment from there player base! (no i do not like aion just pointing out a fact) Lineage2 does the same "free expansions". fact is lots of other MMO's do it like that.
and what does cryptic "monthly sub" in co-exist with "C-Store" ... and what expansions do we gonna get? or what free large update are we gonna get? whats the next big thing C-Store special missions? or C-Store new planets to visit? i'm guessing here so slap me wen i go to far. "don't slap me to hard tho i might bite lol"
Yes!! Make it do that and then its a fair comparison.
lol never gonna happen, no one will buy from the C-store then
personally i would love to see this happen tho, 500 emblems for account wide item fair deal!
I believe people would still buy items in the C-Store. The "must have nao" crowd would still be buying them in the C-Store even if the 500 Emblems unlocked it account wide.
well i'm sure your wrong there, i'm a must have it all type and if i can get it .... nah your right C-store faster
Honestly, I think it'd be better for their business. All the C-Store ships are interesting, but some are "I want it!!" and some are "ehh, it'd be kinda cool." I'd use emblems on the novelty ships (e.g. D'Kyr, since my main doesn't fly science vessels) and buy outright the more interesting ones (MVAM, Galaxy-X, the retrofits, etc.).
Otherwise, I wouldn't get the novelty ships at all and maybe split buying half the ones I really want and get emblems for rest. Don't forget that ship slots are a net 200 Atari Tokens a pop.
But what about the poeple who don't even want to play anymore, because of the terrible STO grind? Like I said earlier, it may be better than other grinds, but that doesn't make it good. I'm all for makin gus earn our stuff, but I don't want people to earn it through something that they hate. To illustrate:
And what if a casual player doesn't want to pay?
This is true, and I've purchased a great many things at the C Store. The ships have always seemed iffy to me though. Make the grind better, or make the 500 unlock for all characters. At minimum, if someone does have the "gotta catch 'em all" mentality, but doesn't want to pay, they've got to grind for FIVE ships. What if they have a second character. That's TEN ships. That's RIDICULOUS.
Besides, you yourself (Cryptic et al.) have said that most players are casual, not even beyond Captain rank. Sure, they can't even use the ships yet, but when they do, what makes you think they'll be able to grind the 500, if they want more than the 1 token ship?
This makes sense. But consumers are an odd crowd, and MMOs are just $15/month, and that's that. Even if STO had gone $20/month from the start, people would complain.
well actually you or mr Stalh said in the past that anything added in the C store with game effect changing should have something equivalent available in game...the same object available through in game means came way after and we are still not there...how can i get the Excelsior T5 or the Ferengi playable character via in game means then?
But i know you already told us to leave all things said in the past where they belong and to look forward...basically you asked us to forget whatever was said and focus on what you are saying now... difficult to build a trusting relationship in these conditions when you keep changing the rules.
whoa.... finally another great revelation from Mr Shade(i really enjoyed the last one when you said that other companies were known to make good story line etc and cryptic specialty was to make the best custom character creator) ...i believe a lot of players complained about this non existent end game...wait, when was that again... oh yeah just after launch
i think you forget that your 3 MMOs are made with the same engine, same core development team which cut the cost, that over the last 10 years, internet connection have drop price or at least you get much more for the same buck, data storage are dead as cheap etc...
I am very interested in this issue as well.
I mean:
Collectors edition
some 3-6 months of subscription fees
lifetime subscription
every uniform and off duty pack on the c store except motion picture
enterprise bundle
numerous bridge packs and ship skins
and i'll be spending still more as I'm going to have to get MVAM for my vice admiral tactical officer and whatever else comes down the pipe from cryptic.
Since I have no desire to do the endless grind I'm left paying yet more for the in game things I might want it's annoying.
1) Why do you 'have to' get MVAM? Has somebody got a gun to your head?
2) You spoke rightly when you said you don't desire to grind for the ship. So yeah, if you're not willing to grind the emblems, and you want it, paying for it is your other option.
I find this to be sort of like saying that you think popcorn and a soda should be included in the price of your movie ticket. I mean, for a 3-D movie it can be what, $20? And if you're like me, you tend to go to the same theater every time. So you've probably spent a lot of money there.
You're entitled to your opinion that as a thank you for your business, the theater should throw in popcorn and a coke with your movie ticket. But the odds of them doing it for you are small. And the odds of them doing it for everyone are infinitesimal.
They've already explained that time spent developing C-Store time is time 'off the books', i.e. if they weren't charging for these items, you wouldn't be getting them at all. You're entitled to not like that, but it doesn't change reality.
games should be fun, spending months to get an item is not fun, especially when getting the item requires repetitive un interesting content.
when are companies going to remember they are making games, not boredom simulators.
in a fun game what you can do with the new weapon or vehicle is the rewad, not getting it.
when you get a rocket launcher in halo it`s not a case of OMG i finally unlocked a rocket launcher after a month of play.
instead it`s OMG when I shoot his thing it blows things up and they spiral through the air in beautiful chaotic carnage!
these special ships are a carrot on a stick right now, and while that might keep people spending a monthly fee, it also creates a very stale, anti social grind community that will one day look up from the keyboard, look around and say hey where did everybody go.
Its really very simple. People go through MMO content far, far faster than it can be produced. If you're going to keep people around from month to month on a subscription model, you're going to need various types of timesinks, which involve some type of grinding. Good MMOs disguise the grind really well. Others do a very poor job of hiding it. Either way, there really is no other option. Even Blizzard, with their mega-millions, can't produce story-based quest content as fast as players can rip through it, let alone a company the size of Cryptic.
The only real option to grinding is going to a full on microtransaction model, where everything is just for sale, from episodes to items you want. They don't have to worry about keeping the subscriptions rolling, so they can just crank out stuff to sell.
I think all of us would love an MMO that provided a literally endless stream of deeply immersive story content. Unfortunately that will never exist, because the team involved wouldn't be able to turn a profit.
If you prefer the second option above, let Cryptic know that you'd like to see STO follow CO in going f2p.
It's a good analogy, for the most part. I would add, however, that there are many businesses that have incentive or reward loyalty programs. Yes, STO has the vet rewards. Perhaps the option of a C Store ship could be added as a 500 or 600 day reward?
Additionally, the theater does not say "watch 50 previews OR pay $5 and you get a coke." It only has the one option. And even if it did, the 500 emblem grind is nowhere near as fun. It's more like being forced to test every theater seat for good viewability as they play the same series of test images every time you change a seat.
Edit: which is where your "good MMOs disguise the grind" comes in. Hopefully the fabled exploration revamp, or a currency streamline will alleviate the 500 grind issue.
In the end it comes down to this: the two options are C Store and a grind. How long should that grind take? Should it be a few weeks for a power player? Should it be half a year for a casual player? I would argue that everyone should have the potential to get at least one ship in about a month to three months at most, without buying it. That includes weekend only players.
For me the issue isnt the cstore, if people want to buy the ships cryptic arnt going to say no. As has been pointed out the emblem cost is deliberately high to make people want to buy it. The real issue is now its a gameplay thing and it stinks.
Stormie you say its an option but it really isnt. The comparison to 10 year old games aside, the only alternative is to go here kill x/x times and repeat repeat repeat repeat. It serves to highlight the worse aspects of your game. When so many strides have been made in good content, to have to go backwards and melt our brains with repetitive boredem and then claim it is content is just plain insulting.
What really needs to be done is to offer the choice ingame of any content by emblemising it all. Players can then play and have fun, whilst also working towards a long term goal. Or they can buy it. Only then will players have a choice.
thats my two cents
Wait just a sec: isnt your job to relay the community feedback to the Devs? If so, then why are you trying to convince us of anything? Whether you happen to agree with it or not, if there are people in the community who think the current set up isnt fair then your job is to relay that info to the the Devs, not to try to convince them that they are wrong.
And just in case your wondering, I agree with what you said. But that doesnt change the point I'm making.
god i hate getting invovled with these discussion lol...
I agree with the bulk of what you've said, but this one piece I want to comment on.
The idea that it should be "hard" to attain certain things is fine. But "tedious" is not the same thing as hard. If you want to make challenging content, or simply enough engaging content to get the emblems, great!
But if it's just doing the exact same "grindy" thing over and over and over again, there is no achievement involved, just time and tedium.
That's why I've never achieved certain rep items in another MMO I play: I refuse to just wander the landscape mindlessly killing the same mobs repeatedly to gain the rep. Give a me a variety of quests (even repeatables, as long as it doesn't have to be repeated too often) and I'll chug away at rep or emblems happily. Make it a tedious and I will never get there.
Playing a game is supposed to be fun; mindless grinding isn't fun. Maybe it's time for an MMO to innovate a little as far as what constitutes the "grind" for top stuff. STO is innovating in other areas, how about this one too?
Disclaimer: I'm a preorder customer who hasn't even hit Captain yet (lots of characters, so you've made some C-store bucks off me for character slots already), so the "grind" doesn't affect me yet. Consider this a preemptive strike in hopes that it will be modified by the time I get there. That should give you plenty of time.