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C-store vs emblems - 500 emblems is steep.
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Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
Right, I'm not standing against the C-store. I see its need and its value to players, the game and Cryptic.
I'm happy to see that some C-store items are made available in game. It is a shame that not all items are made available in game. There are going to be younger players (say 15 or younger - who cannot legally work - in England at least -) who will want an item but have no means of getting it. But still at least there alternate options to acquire certain items without having to sepnd hard earned cash.
However
500 Emblems is steep and expensive in terms of cost of time spent completing missions to earn 500 emplems. Even then you have to grind more emblems, marks etc to kit the ship out in weapons and consoles. The process is arduous and painful and while there is the alternate option of simply paying for it with cash, it is unethical that the 'paying for it' should be so much more appealing than playing the game and earning 500 emblems.
In fact I don't think I have collected 500 emblems. I know for a fact that I've never accumilateed 500 emblems in one go.
And again while I see the need for the C-store and I don't feel that purchasing with emblems should be as easy or as instanenous as paying with cash. I feel needing to collect 500 emblems really isn't an option for most, IMO.
Personally my suggestion would be to either lower the cost of emblem/mark related items or increase the opportunities or the number of emblems/marks awarded form completing missions to make it a realistic and viable option.
I'm happy to see that some C-store items are made available in game. It is a shame that not all items are made available in game. There are going to be younger players (say 15 or younger - who cannot legally work - in England at least -) who will want an item but have no means of getting it. But still at least there alternate options to acquire certain items without having to sepnd hard earned cash.
However
500 Emblems is steep and expensive in terms of cost of time spent completing missions to earn 500 emplems. Even then you have to grind more emblems, marks etc to kit the ship out in weapons and consoles. The process is arduous and painful and while there is the alternate option of simply paying for it with cash, it is unethical that the 'paying for it' should be so much more appealing than playing the game and earning 500 emblems.
In fact I don't think I have collected 500 emblems. I know for a fact that I've never accumilateed 500 emblems in one go.
And again while I see the need for the C-store and I don't feel that purchasing with emblems should be as easy or as instanenous as paying with cash. I feel needing to collect 500 emblems really isn't an option for most, IMO.
Personally my suggestion would be to either lower the cost of emblem/mark related items or increase the opportunities or the number of emblems/marks awarded form completing missions to make it a realistic and viable option.
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Or.... the emblem chase is laughingly considered content. A simple way to dress up repetition as achieving a goal.
Or.... as the apologists of the C store like to say, the items placed there are not needed to play STO. It is not game content but merely fluff. By that rationale, Cryptic are not doing you a favour by adding non-content to the game for emblems and calling it treats.
You can either buy a ship from the store, then sit in space dock since there's really nothing to do with your new ship, or grind for a new ship, and in the process, really come to detest the same thing day after day until such time as you have 500 emblems, then stop playing since there's nothing for you to do in your new ship except the same things you've just done for you 500 emblems lol.
imo 500 emblems is indeed harsh, even 100 sounds crazy much but like someone els here said its not meant to be a eazy way to get stuff "sadly" its there to make people see its way to much work so we buy atari points and buy the item from the c-store ! that marketing right there for yah sadly.
Ehm its not only "FLUFF" anymore XP boost, Ships like Galaxy X or the Exelcior or even the siege one !! thats just a small portion of the stuff that gives player an edge in game! so not needed YES true in a small sent, gives you an Boost/advantage YES it does.
still the C-store is there for CRYPTIC not us the players, and putting the items from c-store in game for an insane amount of emblems is a way to say to us look we care you hate the c-store and look we add the items to the game this way BUT at the same time say "Grind your butts off if you don't want to pay extra for it" !! double sided edge this is! anyways i never gonna grind stuff this games end game is way to boring for that not to say none existed .
Since then I have not grinded emblems since. It was a bad move then, its still a bad move now.
I honestly get that it's a lot of hard work, but for many that can't pay anything more than a monthly sub, having the option at all is a wonderful thing. They just had to set a high price to please Atari.
again i fail to see the view of some players !! C-store DON'T make sense wen the game is NOT F2P !! you say hard work, cryptic bla bla YES all TRUE but ask your self why in the hell do we pay monthly fee for the game?! (well i'm lifer but i speak for the rest of us) don't get me totally wrong here i do understand the C-store to some point (example: the services) BUT things like Costumes or wait even better a new RACE my god don't make me start about them, you buy a new race, lets say ferengi or that fed klingon, and then you see OMG i need to buy extra char slot too ?! what the hell cryptic !!!
untill this game goes F2P i will be a no-no to the C-store's idea, sadly even i have given in to the "dark" side and got stuff from the store cus its easy
anyways done talking about this there will be always people positive and negative c-store most likely the rich (positive) "cus money is not on there mind or care" and the "not so rich" (negative) "money has a value".
LOL played Lineage2 dude the grind in that game is so high you look-up a new meaning for the word "GRIND" !! hehe like the game very much BUT this has nothing to do with the emblems and C-store !! why most korean games that have a insane grind have no c-store or store for items!!! so the grind is the only way !! here its more like a bone we got tossed "look people now you can get c-store items ingame not for cash (so you think) but for emblems" ! HA it cost you more CASH in play time "to grind" the item then to buy it from the c-store. ... damz i said a post before i was not talking about this any-more hehe guess the hate runs deep.
It does *feel* this way
The repetition for these emblems is mind-numbingly dull, and 500 of them is a bit crazy - especially when you consider that you only have to buy the item on the c-store once for all your characters, whereas if you choose to use emblems, you have to grind out 500 emblems per character. In short, this number needs to be reduced to make it realistic for people.
I don't agree that these new ships are just 'fluff', these are game changing additions! The ships you can buy in the c-store provide unique abilities or crew setups that are not available elsewhere. If they were just 'fluff', then you would be able to get these abilities without having to grind. Point in case: the new MVAS Prometheus coming out will offer an escort with a Lt. Cmdr science officer - which I believe no other escort does, so no other escort captain will be able to use Tier 3 science powers.
Well, I can't speak towards 'nothing to do' since I'm in a fairly social fleet and we help each other out, pvp, rp, etc - that's your own thing. But I can say that grinding out 500 emblems is a sure way to drive someone to leave the game from boredom - its just too much grinding over the same content to be fun, especially when you consider that you also need to grind even more emblems if you want to equip that new ship with the best equipment you can (or grind resources if you want to craft said equipment).
Dstahl, perhaps you can look at the ratio or players who are buying vs. grinding out these ships. Is anyone actually going to the trouble of grinding them out, because (and I don't mean to accuse anyone of anything here), it feels like the 500 emblem target is just a way to 'offer' the item in game without it actually being practical to do so. Perhaps there is some way to get these marks in a reasonable amount of time without ruining the game experience with too much grinding? Your assistance/advice/insight into the emblem 'pricing' (or how to get emblems reasonably) would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers and thanks,
- Z
I should clarify, it's not me that thinks these things are fluff. That is the view of the C store apologist, you know, the type that says either "you don't need these things anyway, so shut up," oR "you can get them in game for emblems, so shut up".
Cryptic (not Dstahl personally probably) wouldn't care about that ratio. If you buy the stuff from the store, that's lovely for them. If you grind the emblems and continue to hurl your monthly fee at them in order to do so, that's good too. In fact, if anything, it would seem they care about it only in 1 direction, as is evident by the rise in emblem prices not so long ago. Obviously people were getting their in game items too easily. Basically what they're saying is, they've fulfilled their promise. The stuff is in game, now if it's unreasonable to attain it that way, that's tough. You know their preferred option.
"but the C store funds future game developement bleet bleet. Sub fee alone won't get us future updates and things to do bleet bleet"
Maybe Cryptic should have thought about that before releasing half a game. It's a simple circle. Cryptic want us to pay per month, therefore they must provide content to make us wish to continue paying.
If they do not provide content, we no longer wish to pay and Cryptic lose their income and the game dies.
The C store does not factor in unless we are to believe that the game will survive on Lifers and C store purchases alone. If that's so, make it F2P now and then the store is fine.
So far, what's added to the game in the updates (IMO of course) ammounts to being worth a sub for a month every 5 or 6 months. Perhaps they should offer a weekly sub option since it really doesn't take any longer than that to catch up if you're been away a while.
And again, 500 emblems is grindable in approx 1 month. Possible also for casuals? nope not really, but in what game people get topend gear without investing any time at all.
It like people in wow would demand to get frostmourne in less then a month...
People need to realize, that ships are also equpiment, basically they are your armor set and if you put that in that perspective the howl system becomes crystal clear.
You get your basic armor (EC optainable on different tiers), you get your level-cap reward armor, and you have your uncommon armor grindable through emblems/marks.
I pay $15 per month for Cryptic to release purchasable items and Foundry updates. We are paying them to make more money. Instead of getting real end game content, we get CStore releases. Star Trek is grindy to the extreme, even more so than WoW. I am looking for decent end game and this is not the game that will deliver.
its not "IF" your a fan that wants all items that you automatic be a "rich" person nono, even none rich players can be like "i want it all no mater the cost".
give me proof that you can farm 500 emblems in 1 months and not just your word! its my understanding then wen your grinding emblems you face a cooldown timer on the mission that gives emblems wen you repeat the mission to much, timer gets bigger the more you do the missions so i don't think you can farm 500 emblems in a month "time wise".
and world of warcraft armor or any related stuff from warcraft can't be used for example here, totally different game, its like comparing apples with oranges.
yeah its rare that people don't see the harm in this c-store at this time, we pay "well technical i don't" a monthly fee to make cryptic crew make us "content" witch we get so far BUT that content is either half or totally bugged! cryptic is spending more time on adding goodies to there C-store then to fix whats wrong with this game! really makes me sad.
PS: not saying i'm not happy with the content that we got so far just saying that's that why we "again technical not me" pay a monthly fee for. C-store makes perfect sens if the game is F2P so that's why i'm 100% sure this game will be sooner then we think F2P and keep in mind this game was made with an eye on F2P otherwise you won't start a game with a store at launch!! well thats my opinion anyways.
That said I've noticed that ships going in at the minute aren't for Emblems. They're for marks of exploration, now this is much more achievable as if you run B'Tran or the Klingon equivalent you receive marks and emblems for the same missions - just a thought people, just a thought.
Heck if work didn't drag my TRIBBLE all over the country at the minute reducing my game time significantly I'd aim to grind out, lets say the Nebula, in the next month just for interest sake. 16 a day is...challenging but not impossible, I'd say 6 weeks is more likely the realistic number
I understand that 500 emblem seem steep, but it does keep you playing. The C-Store is there for people who have to get it right now and are not patient enough to wait and save up for what they want. A lot of games are starting to do both the monthly payments and a store. There are also games doing both F2P and Pay 2 Play.
Nothing is free, there is always a price to pay. The real question is, is it worth the price to you.
It is worth it to me. I like STO and it has improve greatly since it start and it will only get better.
you really have a bad idea on this ! yes cryptic is a business and yes making money is a must, but keep in mind that paying a monthly fee will do that for them! paying extra for some things don't make me cry like crazy either as long as it is "some" things, don't you see that we got more c-store stuff then content for this game don't this makes you at-least a little mad? not to say the stuff we did got its half bugged (example: stf's)
And give me proof of other games that wield a monthly fee and have a c-store alike?! i love that people always refer to other games but never say witch game. its all steam and words you want yourself to be fooled with maybe to make you feel better about your c-store addiction.
oh and yes F2P don't mean you get all things ingame for fee, we all know that a F2P games restrict a player from things "hence the c-store" to unlock that for the players!! your blinded "as most of the Star Trek Fans" you don't mind paying extra! but a normal player might see this as exploitation of the player base witch it is btw.
PS: i'm a fan and have almost all things from the c-store but that don't takes away that i don't see the problem. i know i'm exploited, its my one weakness i absolutely want all items i feel incomplete in this game otherwise. its stupid i know but i bet that 80% of the fan base is like this, only a few see the danger of it.
Hmm. Here's the thing though, the $15 dollars a month that all of us are paying is (in the traditional MMO model) the money used to keep the game running and produce more content.
This model has worked well for MMOs in the past, (micro-transactions are a fairly late edition to the professional pay-monthly mmo scene). So is STO's population so low they need the extra cash from the C-Store? Have production costs gone up that much? I've heard live chat comments from the Devs stating that "STO is doing very well", which begs the question: is this a money grab, or a necessary means of getting cash in the 'new world economy of MMOs'?
I certainly don't want to insult the Devs, because I think they are doing a bang up job for the most part (and most likely these c-store decisions don't rest with them), but they *are* our champions to the Cryptic powers-that-be. I don't recall seeing any 'marketing' guys here on a daily basis listening to our concerns and replying to our requests (and again I apologize if there are some and I just haven't noticed!).
So I do hope that one of the devs can enlighten us on the c-store and emblem 'price points' and clarify if anyone is buying ships at 500 emblems a shot (because to me that number just seems fairly impracticable due to the time it takes and the repetitive nature of the content in question). At a guess, I would imagine the ratio of c-store buys to emblem buys must be very low. If so, this should be addressed, and in-game only purchases should be more accessible and enjoyable to those who want to get these items this way (IMHO anyways!) ;-)
As a final comment, I do think someone hit a reasonable 'price point' above in one of the other comments. 1000 c-store points or 350 emblems.
Thanks again,
- Z
its like smoking law in my country, we all know smoking kills or at-least shorten your life-span YET the government allows the selling of cigarettes, why cus the government gets allot of tax from that sales. is that fair no, is that stupid yes, do we know that fact yes, do we care NO ... same principle for the c-store we know its unfair in an none F2P model do we care NO. well not all some do care but can't do TRIBBLE about it
i bet that this game is making so much money "cus of c-store sales" that cryptic can fund a new game with it!! and possible is doing right now. i don't say this is bad don't get me wrong here !! but at-least fix this game before you divert money to a new project!
and yes the dev's did an excellent job so far and i hope this will continue much longer!
As others have already stated, Cryptic are not only making money on STO via subscriptions fee's but also double dipping there customer base by charging another c-store fee for content we have already paid for
Also before the c-store defenders jump all over the fact you can buy ships in game for emblems, its such a high amount it can only have been devised to push players towards the c-store. Cryptic should let players use credits to buy the ships just like the you can while levelling up.
For me at least, spending a month levelling a new toon is a lot more interesting than farming Emblems every day for a month.
We get them in game, but the in-game method is no fun and for some it is too lengthy, you can buy them, but that is money out of your pocket for a ship you may not like or may get outdone in a future level cap raise.
At any rate, I think the grind could be improved in such a way it does not hurt the store, improved to such a degree it makes it feel less like we are being forced to buy it from the store rather than grind it out.
I don't mind the store, I just don't like what it is doing to the game in some areas, well at least in the earning your ships in-game area.
It feels like it is holding the game hostage, want new ships? gotta grind your tail off in a very tedious and very grindy feeling way or buy it.
When are we going to get the old way back, when are we going to get new ships that we can buy in the game that do not involve dailies for days upon days, and when are we going to see craftable ships?
I am tired of every new ship going to the store and getting the 500 emblem daily grind treatment, I want to see the fun in earning these things make an appearence and I want ships I can buy even if I have to spend 5 mill on each to get em.
I don't hate grinds, if the grind is made fun and engaging, grinds can be made to have less of a bite without removing the grind from the equation.
I am not apposed to earning my stuff, I just want it to be fun, that is all.
I am glad the ships are now in game, now the grind needs to have some edges rounded off a bit either by lowering the cost of the ships emblemwise or upping how much you get for each daily.
I am one of few people to actually earn the 500 emblems to purchase one of these ships and am now working on getting another. Yes it takes some work but you have a sense of accomplishment when you earn it after all of that work. At least that is how I feel about it, you are entitled to your own opinion on this issue..
You can complain about things to change and sometimes it will sometimes it won't. In real life things are not always that easy; yes society is driven on money and that won't change for anything. You have Atari who is trying to make as much money as possible but at the same time the devs are putting in a lot of work and fighting for the rights of other players to have a means to get it without having to use real money to do so.
I guess my whole spill is for you to have a bit more patience and find ways to make the grind more entertaining. Yes it sucks, but what else can you do. I do most of mines with my fellow fleet mates and we team up to do the daily grinds and that makes it a lot less boring maybe you should try it.
funny you say "rolling alts" you do know after the 3th char you need to pay "extra" money for a new char slots !! you do know that i hope, same counts for a new race, you buy the race but not the char slot for it if your out of them !! talk about a rip-off right there. all i can say is cryptic smelled the sent of money and knows we fan will buy them anyways from the c-store and the items for emblems is put in for the minority of players that whine about the c-store, to keep them calm.
and the free ship token is for a "retrofit" ship if cryptic had them added to the game only c-store, cryptic would have a raid on there hands! imagen you get to VA1 and you read the following from the admiral at ESD, welcome to the vice admiral rank <name> now all you need to do is farm 500 emblems to get your very own retrofit ship !!
hehe personally if i would read that, i would have picked up my screen and tossed it true my window to just fuel my rage even more cus i then realize i just destroyed my monitor !! needless to say the fury juices would flow at light-speeds
Holy TRIBBLE .. CRYPTIC = FERENGIES
Now, how much of this is driven by Atari I don't know, but with the addition of the MVAM Prometheus it has driven it past the point I find acceptable. And in the end, it's not Atari this sours me on - I already know what kind of company Atari is - it is Cryptic.
If Dan genuinely cares about this community as much as he claims to - and I believe he does - then he needs to take a stand on this. The prices being charged for ships are not reasonable, do not provide value-for-money spent and I do not believe for a second are solely designed to cover Cryptic's costs in producing them. At $15 each, that would mean each ship requires the development man-hours of one-half to one-third of a full-priced game, which is well beyond the realm of believability.
Likewise the emblem cost - given the current state of what has to be done to achieve them - is deliberately, outrageously arduous - and again I suggest a developer sits down in his free time and does this grind for himself before asserting it is reasonable and qualifies the rewards as 'available in game'. Other people have jobs, too.
Yeah, I'm aware. But character slots are cheaper than buying the ships. And the reality is, when a new ship comes out that you're interested in, you have three options, not two. You can:
1) Buy the ship in the C-Store
2) Farm up 500 Emblems in game
3) Roll an alt, level it, and use the ship with that toon
Me personally, I've done 1 and 3. 1 when I wanted to use a ship on an existing toon, and 3 when I was just generally interested in the ship.
But regardless, this thread should be C-Store v. Emblems v. Alts.
Go figure that players complain that they want to get C-Store items for free in game, Cryptic does so and now they complain that they have to actual spend some time playing the game because the items aren't just handed to them. :eek:
is the nebula in that list for a free token?! not sure here thats why i ask.
Sir your wrong! examples of things that change the game: MVAM, Galaxy X ship, XP Boost, Trible pets (Buffs), Bridge officers ...
Please next time think before you reply do not change game play ... pfff
Ahm Nothing is free, you pay for game time so not a darn thing is free ... not that i want "totally free" items nobody works for free, thats why people pay a monthly fee for mmo games.
Game changing and change the game aren't really usually considered the same thing, and either way I didn't mean them the same way. None of those items, or the lack thereof, will make one player signigicantly more able to play the game than any other, thus they are not "game changing".
Edit: You pay a monthly fee because they charge a monthly fee to access the game. Whatever that comes with is what you get for free with that subscription. Fine if you wish to nit-pick and say that it's thus not free; but if it's available in game, it cost nothing extra (usuallly aka...free).
To the best of my knowledge, no. Only the Defiant, Intrepid and Galaxy Retrofits are presently available for the free VA token. The Nebula and Excelsior are not, and the Prometheus MVAM will not be.
I believe so, because I had one on a Sci of mine and I don't believe I bought it at the C-store.
So, instead of paying 1200 Cryptic points per ship, you can, in theory at least, pay 850 points for 4 character slots, level the alts, and get four ships.