Disable hypers in frost, yes, no or LV restricted?

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Sorry, but I'm not going to listen to the "silent majority" argument. You could spam WC on every server for days and you still won't get a completely accurate measure of community opinion, or anywhere near it. And the reason for that is apathy... the same reason so many polls and actual elections IRL suffer this same problem. But hell, we're using a sample size of 1400 people already. That's more than a lot of IRL surveys get. What more do you want? Or do you just want the heavens to open and magically pour out thousands of pro-powerleveling people whom you seem to think are the silent majority?

I'm not seeing a problem here. What I'm seeing is a man who's not happy with the results, so suddenly the entire poll's not valid.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If you're gonna wait for them to fix a problem perfectly the first time they try, nothing would ever get done around here. Our devs are simply not that competent, and you know it. :P But baby steps are better than no steps at all. If you think they're dragging their heels on the follow-up, don't complain to me about it - start a campaign to get it fixed.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Well, seeing as you're so insistent on me acknowledging your experience with Frost powerleveling... I'll say this. If the vast majority of your clients are 75+, why do they need you to begin with? I've done FFs at 75+... sure it's hell in a handbasket, but that's how you learn your class. FF is completely doable with a 75-80 squad.

I don't mean to make a point here about their laziness at 75+, because I'm sure you have no qualms obliging them for the money. What I am saying is that, were powerleveling removed or restricted, your "overwhelming majority" would really be no worse off than they already are. It's just, y'know, they'd actually have to play the instance themselves.

That's why I haven't responded to the comments about your clientelle until now - because the vast majority of them (according to you) would not be impacted in any significant way. So are we talking about 75-80 people, or are we talking about newbies powerleveling from the lowgame? Which is it?

I would totally support hyper use starting at 75+, if it makes any difference to you.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Well, I'm guess I'm not "most people," then. I can live with that. :P

As far as I'm concerned, bad players are totally relevant to the issue of Frost powerleveling (as I believe it creates more of them than would otherwise exist). However, I also believe that respecting the game's design and keeping parity with those who don't choose to abuse Frost is equally relevant.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

First of all, "unfair to everybody" really highlights how out of touch you are, here. Those now-900ish people don't seem to think it's unfair. Actually, they seem to think it's unfair to them that powerleveling exists. I'd be willing to bet they'd take issue with you calling the lack of hypers in Frost a "glitch," too. Again - nice framing, but I'd suggest you take off those rose-tinted glasses before they fog up and obscure your vision entirely. :P

I just found the time to re-read that Wikipedia page of yours in more detail. Sadly that pages takes more liberty with the definition of "strawman" than I've ever heard of. To me, in every contextual use I've ever heard in 10+ years since learning the term, "strawman" has referred to a pesron who goes into a debate willfully intending to lose it in hopes of helping the other side. Hence, the strawman is the person presenting the arguments, not the arguments themselves.

So if I overexaggerated your argument, then I overexaggerated your argument. It makes little difference when the original form of your argument can be refuted just as easily. The same is true of the vast majority of recurring points in the first thirty-odd pages, which I paraphrased in that one post. Had I laboriously gone through all those pages and quoted every individual pro-powereleveling poster, half my responses to them would have looked identical to each other... and indeed, identical to my responses to several of your points. I know you and I are clearly wall-of-text titans and all, but I don't think anyone wants to read that colossal display of redundancy.

(And that's assuming anyone is even still reading this whole argument between you and I... first one to notice this message other than Wnb and me gets a cookie!)

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Merging with below:

As I said above, I'm advocating both points. I don't particularly care whether I'm the only one advocating it or not (though I'm certainly not the only one who feels that way). If you're going to talk to me, you're going to hear this point.

What exactly is "funny" about that? You're absolutely forcing others to accommodate and legitimize this behavior. I'm quite tired of you trying to frame this discussion like you're some noble defender of rights and I and 65% of the forumers are trying to stomp you into the dirt. Nevermind that the only reason you even can frame it that way is because Frost abuse happens to be the status quo at the moment. Hence my earlier mention of role reversal; if powerleveling were such a good idea, then it would hold up under scrutiny whether you happened to be playing offense or defense on its behalf.

But since you seem to be implying that restrictions of any kind are a universal negative... where would you draw the line as to what's acceptable leveling behavior? If I told you I wanted to poke a Lv1 mob and instantly become Lv105, would you humor me? Would you advocate for this change? Would you seriously, unironically, look logically at that suggestion and say to yourself, "that change would be good for the game?"

Restrictions are put in place because they're meant to guide the game along the healthiest path possible. I say "meant to" because obviously they don't always work as designed, and even those that do will need updates as the game grows and evolves. As such, you certainly have a right to challenge a restriction. But that's not how you're acting, here. What you're doing here is phrasing things in such a way that you try to invalidate my entire argument based solely on the point that I'm "advocating restrictions." Well, I'm sorry for caring enough about this game to want it to not descend into total anarchy. But unless you're seriously going to condense this behemoth of an debate into purely black-and-white terms, we're gonna have to draw the line somewhere.

kaleya wrote: »

It's human nature essentially. Doing something over and over repeatedly, time after time, again and again, day in day out, constantly, time and time again, regularly, continuously, and consistently, you get bored. (I hope my terrible representation of that worked!) There comes a time when you need something new and want to level to achieve more. This is accompanied with the fact that PWI focuses more on bringing new items for higher levels than they do for lower levels. If you want something better (maybe higher leveled gears), you aim for that goal, do what it takes to attain it. Hence why FF is very popular.

kaleya wrote: »

Eh... I dislike when people use absolutes in their argument. It's either 100% right or 100% wrong, and that definitely can be contended.

now whos the one who is making redundant arguments here. you claim that you dont like ppl use absolutes in their arguments when you are making a rather absolute in your arguments also. not all the time things are 100% right or wrong, there are will be times when both sides of a discussion, argument or controversy will both be right or both be wrong. not all the time its as easy as black and white on a chalkboard.

1) tl; dr: Questing means you become a skilled player? No.

I, for one, can speak from experience. My first character was around a month after PW opened, so I've been here a long time. I had 2 mains - both of which I quested all the way through around 80-90. Did I learn from quests? Not much. I learned which skills worked the best, but that can be done by anyone who can read. What I learned most from was by participating in "varied battle scenarios," AKA instances, particularly starting from BH79. Farming mobs aren't anything special, but a ton of mobs packed close together with a boss that debuffs like crazy - I definitely had to learn and adjust. Not only did I have myself to protect, but everyone else. I just don't think the same caliber of skill is taught at lower level quests. Eventually, I got into FF and learned a whole lotta heck more! I was definitely behind in the FF bandwagon, and had absolutely no clue what I was doing. Luckily, a few training FF squads came about, and that's where I actually learned how to work with a squad in an instance similar to those end-game. (This brings up an issue about the difference between the old time community and today's. The attitudes i mostly see now are people just trying to help themselves and not others. Thus, you can't blame one entirely for not knowing their class because there hasn't been anyone to help them. Do I think restricting FF hypers will resolve the problem? No, PWI has brought about these attitudes, and there will be a lot more needed than removing/restricting hypers in FF to fix this.)

let me answer that question, does doing quests making a player skilled? maybe yes and maybe no its all how each player learns the basics. you could use this point as an example for someone to get into powerlvling cause its their way of learning. but let me tell you something from my experience of being on here the last 3yrs+. ever since powerlvling was made by the pwi players, it has cause more squad wipes and fails than anyone could count. you say you didnt learn much from quests was it cause you didnt want to or you couldnt. if you didnt want to, then i pity you for not learning and seeing the better things of the game rather than inside a constant rerun of the same instance.

you also say you dont like doing the same thing over and over again, day to day, month to month then tell me why you keep on doing the same bosses, kill the same mobs in 1 instance when theres like thousands of mobs in the open world. anyone can learn in an instance besides making it the same one day in and day out. you talk bout how you see the attitudes of players helping themselves more than others, that is the result of ppl wanting power over sacrifice. would restricting hypers in FF eliminate the problem? no ofc not. but it would put it a stop or slow it down by alot.

2) tl;dr: Pleveling brings rise to unskilled players? No.

Eventually came time for a new character. I had a great grasp on the game, and for my playstyle I learned better from level 80+ than I did at lower levels. So, guess what? I plvled. I didn't want to spend time learning from an amateur when I could learn elsewhere. Did I lack some skills? Sure, at first. I knew what I did know and didn't know, and worked in order to fix those issues. For me, I'd feel terrible if I let my squad down because of my mistakes, so I try and learn from them every time. This toon is now my main, and pretty well-geared. And no, I don't cash shop. So plvling can make for well-skilled players.

sounds like you like making money from other players laziness and stupidity. Plus one can learn more from the lower lvls than they can from running an instance 100 times.

My point is, you can't say every plvler does not recognize what they don't know. Some do, some don't. Everyone's standards of proficiency are different, and it may take longer for some than it does for others. Just because someone has a different playstyle than yours doesn't mean they lack ability. You just can't treat everyone as equally in competence, because a 4 year player might be better than a 3 month player, or maybe the other way around. Yes, there is a line between abusing the FF system and using it as a stepping to get to end-game. However, I have yet to meet a lot of plvlers who aren't willing to learn and better themselves.

alot of what you said here i agree with, but FF shouldnt be the stepping stone to end game. players can find alot of more exciting things in the low to mid lvls than they can at end game. plus why do players have to rush to the end when its just that "THE END." end game is not what makes the beginning, the end is the end no matter how you may justify it. whether it be the last page of a book or the last lvl of a game. once your done your done no ifs, ands or buts.

So you think doing hundreds of quest repetitively is quality? For me, not so much. Rather it's dreadful and boring. I'm not sure if you're pro-level restriction or against hypers entirely, but I'll assume that you agree that disabling hypers for lower levels will promote more of a community between them? Correct me if I'm wrong. But if this is true, then I'll have to disagree. There are more things needed than that in order to get back to the "older times." FF did not kill lower leveled quests/BHs/etc all by itself. There are multiple contributing factors... Times have changed PWI has updated itself in order to focus more on end-game.

If doing hundreds of repeditive quests is boring and dreadful, how will it feel once you reach end game and your back to being bored? since it seems like you have a narrow view on this whole thing, you should go take a look around and see what really goes on around you. there might be more things that need to be changed before we can get back to the older times true, but that does need to start by putting a cap lvl limit on FF and hypers. plus FF did kill alot of the lower lvl content even though it wasnt the only thing that did it and yes there are other contributing factors that id say that needs to be addressed. Have times changed? yes ofc but not for the better and ofc pwi has updated itself but it also has updated alot of the lower to mid lvl content too. if players would just go through those lvls they might get a surprising factor out of it.

Everyone says it's so easy to level. How will this promote a community? Regardless if you level to 75 in 2-3 weeks doing quests versus 1 week in FF (I'm sure these numbers are inaccurate, I'm not good with time), how will this make the world more occupied? People will be in and out quickly, and the reason why there was more of a community back in the days was because it was a lengthy road to get to end-game and people squaded together to get their quests done. There's no need for that now.

There is plenty need for ppl to squad together to get quests and things done. just because you can get to lvl 75 in just a few weeks doesnt mean that doing them alone will make players stay. what makes em stay is the capability for them to be able to make friends along that lengthy road. if they always have to end up doing the lengthy road alone, then no wonder its no fun. having to spend countless hrs on doing quests alone is not whats going to make em stay, what will is the chance to have them join with other players of the same average lvl so they can progress together. sounds like another classic selfish blunder.

*sigh* Not the "because I was here longer than you means i should get more benefits" excuse. This is extremely selfish. One who has played longer doesn't have any more of a right than those who just started. I'm not debating this one with you as you don't see the difference between fair or unfair (it's more directed towards the crowd that agree with that statement), but I do not believe it is a legitimate complaint.

we're not saying that players who do end up staying here the longest should get some sort of special treatment or "benefits". plus i agree that its a selfish thing if some veteran player thinks that they can get the hot seat just cause of how loyal or dedicated he/shes been over the years. i will say that by limiting the out of control use of FF will bring the community to a much more lively environment than having it a lonely and stuck up playerbase.

I guess everyone's standards of quality is different. I don't see the huge negative impact in squadplay that you and several others see. Every squad I've been in, whether it be BH/FF/TT has been successful, maybe with few to no mistakes. I've died a whole lot less compared to the old days, so that's an improvement. You just can't blame FF as the reason for fail squads.

Just because you've hardly to rarely died in bh,ff or tt is not cause of the few mistakes, but it maybe cause you've been rather lucky with the squads that you make or join. Plus i do see a huge negative impact that FF and the hypers have caused to the game alone. it has caused more ppl to become power hungry, self preservation and also the increase of greed. So yes i can blame FF for alot to most of the fail squads that we get into. if you havent been in a fail squad before try looking for a random bh squad and see how long and how far you get with em. Fail squads only make the run take longer stead of having a squad work together to accomplish something far greater than each individual.

Thanks, you made several points that I thought were good to address! Nothing against you.

soundslegit wrote: »

Not everyone plays their class badly because of inexperience or stupidity. I was once in a bh squad with an archer who BOAed on every boss. I finally whispered to him that its a waste of sparks and he said I know, I just like the way it looks.

Then there are the people who got bad advice from a high level they worship and now won't listen to anything you say on the subject. Or even worse, their boyfriend told them to do it that way.

And just generally there are people who are just having fun on the weekend and don't take the whole thing so seriously. Imagine that, they think this is just a game.

juggalotiny wrote: »

in the end no matter what we say or do its what will make pwi more money that will happen. Its all about the all mighty dollar. This is and always will be pay to win in pwi. another useless instance just like vana. After nw came out it made vana not worth running. I rember when the cannys were worth more then the gem drops outa chest. But it dont make pwi money anymore. With the flood of vana gear it drives more to spend the money to get r9. Yay for the Dollar

VKnightV - Lost City wrote: »

does boa get you killed no then your not really saying he is a bad player just his taste of tactic is bad.

that is like saying a bm who refuse to use fist is bad cos he is missing the dps of his toon when in reality all he is doing is playing his toon the way he likes it.

as long as nobady dies aka bad pull lure mobs and dont agro all of them or say he can tank when he cant he have the right to play how he wants.

if you dont like his way of playing dont party with him but he is not a bad player just cos you disagree with his tactics.

soundslegit wrote: »

Not everyone plays their class badly because of inexperience or stupidity. I was once in a bh squad with an archer who BOAed on every boss. I finally whispered to him that its a waste of sparks and he said I know, I just like the way it looks.

Then there are the people who got bad advice from a high level they worship and now won't listen to anything you say on the subject. Or even worse, their boyfriend told them to do it that way.

And just generally there are people who are just having fun on the weekend and don't take the whole thing so seriously. Imagine that, they think this is just a game.

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

I know literally hundreds of people who have never done twilight temple, have no idea what warsoul tournament is, have no idea what city of abominations is, have no idea what half the mold armors are, have never done GV as anything more than a BH, have never gotten a friendship crystal, don't know how to craft gear, and/or are level 102+ with gear for a 7x.

Way to skip the game.
No point even playing an MMO at that point

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

I know literally hundreds of people who have never done twilight temple, have no idea what warsoul tournament is, have no idea what city of abominations is, have no idea what half the mold armors are, have never done GV as anything more than a BH, have never gotten a friendship crystal, don't know how to craft gear, and/or are level 102+ with gear for a 7x.

Way to skip the game.
No point even playing an MMO at that point

v4liance wrote: »

FCC issue
- Devs are going to reverse this change, thereby re-enabling hyper-exp in FCC, so hopefully we'll have this fixed with our next maintenance.
- Regarding alternative "solutions," such as a level cap - I think we need to continue discussing this over a longer period of time. But for now, we're going to try to revert this change ASAP and re-enable hyper exp in FCC.
- Val