Is 100 magic per damage multiplier still fair?

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Are you serious? Did you even run TTs back then? Your flippant response makes me doubt it. You obviously have no idea how much a TT run used to cost a barb or cleric to run. Most considered the system fair considering that barbs would walk out of a TT with a 200k repair bill as opposed to the BM's 40-50k.

There were of course detractors, largely BM's who felt they deserved more than they actually did and at times had to be kicked out for causing more problems in runs then they were worth. FYI, Wizards and venos also fell into the DD category so yes I fell into that systems low end as well. Did I mind? No, because I understood the resources I used for the run were far less than the barb, cleric, or opener.

Scraps? Most TTs dropped enough so that most would get something they needed. AND... If you REALLY had an issue with barbs and clerics getting SECOND and THIRD pick in the ROUND ROBIN system the simplest solution was to simply pay the subs to open the run and get FIRST.

Still have a problem? Okay, do a faction run and let ALL mats go to those who need them. Back then factions helped each other out quite a bit and there was far less backstabbing. I knew many barbs and clerics who would go just to get to know how their faction mates worked and help friends. They would take only the lowest priced mats for repairs IF ANY and only if they weren't needed. How many APSers would do that at the height of the APS craze? I knew of none, and their costs were significantly less considering they could kill the bosses a lot faster than old school squads.

Oh, and one last bit of irony, after APS became the primary farming method APSers started calling second (and some even had the gall to call first when they didn't open) for any all class farming run that they were a part of (and those became few and far between I might add). Barbs, casters? They could take a hike.

So yes, runs back then were more fun and far more fair. If you didn't like the system there were alternatives and if you were one of those that just didn't want to share you could always do solo runs. Next time you want to talk from the hip and not from experience take an example from this smiley b:shutup

Psshh... all I'm getting from the blah blah blah above is that you're pissed that your original elitist system got replaced by another... full stop. And all that b.s. about Barbs/Clerics being allowed to get first picks due to higher repair costs is just that... B.S. You choose to play the class that has certain drawbacks (higher repair/MP costs) ?

You accept and learn to live with the higher maintenance that comes with the class... not try to recoup your costs at every opportunity at the expense of the rest of the squad.

My Seeker used to easily hit close to 500k in repairs regularly when doing full Delta. Yet you didn't see ME demanding to keep the first book page that dropped... And I didn't change my policy even after they took the coins out of that instance. Truth be told your attitude is no different than the same elitist apsers you are crying down.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Psshh... all I'm getting from the blah blah blah above is that you're pissed that your original elitist system got replaced by another... full stop. And all that b.s. about Barbs/Clerics being allowed to get first picks due to higher repair costs is just that... B.S. You choose to play the class that has certain drawbacks (higher repair/MP costs) ?

You accept and learn to live with the higher maintenance that comes with the class... not try to recoup your costs at every opportunity at the expense of the rest of the squad.

My Seeker used to easily hit close to 500k in repairs regularly when doing full Delta. Yet you didn't see ME demanding to keep the first book page that dropped... And I didn't change my policy even after they took the coins out of that instance. Truth be told your attitude is no different than the same elitist apsers you are crying down.

omg i hope the devs keep making caster class ever more op

and i hope u dont qq to much about ur um what was it u called it (original elitist system[/B] got replaced by another)

ooh wait it actually did purify spell

+ caster get more damage per stats

bb now dont remember to look teh door when it hits you in the head too much

VKnightV - Lost City wrote: »

omg i hope the devs keep making caster class ever more op

and i hope u dont qq to much about ur um what was it u called it (original elitist system[/B] got replaced by another)

ooh wait it actually did purify spell

+ caster get more damage per stats

bb now dont remember to look teh door when it hits you in the head too much

I could care less what class is flavor of the month now seeing as how I uninstalled back in January... and the way this game is going right now (next up... +2 DoTs lol) I can't see wild horses dragging me back.

And for your information, the BM aviator you are looking at was retired by me more than a year and a half ago. I played my R9 Seeker exclusively until quitting.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Both are broken but fact is APS has more grounds of balance than higher multiplier of damage for casters. APS only becomes problem when stacked and it always comes with a cost - APS gear is quite squishy. Difference to magic multiplier is how stacking magic doesnt really come with any cost. No vit? Do you see anybody but barbs with added vit? Discounting obvious poor Bob`s TW clerics/etc.

Both are not broken, contrary to what you may wish. APS only becomes a problem when stacked? Earlier you said it wasn't worth using unless stacked. Whatever cost it may come with is far surpassed by the shear amount of damage it puts out in record time. I also like how you aren't bringing up Blood Paint. Another mechanic that made APS even more broken than it would have been originally. "Cleric? What's that? With BP I can heal myself b:victory" Do casters get bloodpaint? Do melee venos get bloodpaint? Do pets get bloodpaint? No? And yet you still go on about how "balanced" APS is...

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

There though is similarity in how stat point multiplier only starts to really show on higher levels as masteries play fairly big part in dmg multipliers(and standard 100% multiplier) on earlier/mid levels. Endgame bigger part of the dmg multiplier comes from stat points. The higher stat points we go, the higher relative dmg multiplier casters get than anyone else. For example, on level 50 total multiplier of caster can be 20% higher than melee`s and due how standard multipliers dont really grow at endgame, least not as quickly as stat point multipliers, on lvl 100 it will be over 20%. Number 20% is taken off hat so to say, in truth we are talking bout bigger relative difference.

You... you are trying to make me laugh aren't you. This is all a big troll joke isn't it? You don't seem to have a grasp on anything other than the difference in base stats, and bringing in masteries just threw open the gates to the ball park. Sage mastery for cleric, veno, mystic, and wizard for all spell damage is at most 25% of specific elemental damage. What is it for melee? 90% of weapon damage. With melee venos being the only exception at 200% weapon damage. Of course, that's based off of magic weapons and usually comes tied with low strength scores. Not the 400 or so BMs achieve. Sins are even worse with Dex. The weapon mastery modifier is added on top of the bonus you get from Strength so that each STR point you put into your char yeilds greater damage returns with high damage weapons, such as axes, than APS weapons, such as fists. FYI this is one of the reasons axes are so popular in PVP.

Magic weapons are not as widely varied in damage output and the mastery modifier is based off of total elemental damage, not weapon damage. This means that per refine, physical damage would yield far greater returns then magic damage, at least if we did things the way you want to. As it stands, due to the x100 mag modifier, refines for mag weapons increase total damage by increasing total elemental damage through increasing the weapons base score, then the mastery comes into play. With phys refines, physical damage gets the weapon damage increase multiplied by the mastery bonus along with the STR bonus.

How do I know this? As a physical veno my melee score is dwarfed by my mag score with a low refine weapon. At +10 They become about equal. Both my STR and my MAG sit at about 315, so there isn't a large discrepancy in stats and I have both masteries maxed. Granted my weapon damage is 200% and not 90% but the fact remains that masteries increase physical damage with weapon refines more than they increase elemental damage with refines. If you want to make the argument that refines shouldn't matter with balance between classes then you might have a valid argument, key word being "might". However this is a CS game and of course PWI would want you to refine your weapons to attain "balance". I should point out however, that just because my scores are equal at +10 doesn't mean my damages are balanced. My physical attack rate far surpasses my magic attack rate. If they both do similar damage I wouldn't call that balanced at all. BTW why don't you use attack rates in your calculations? Such as the APS attack rate you keep championing?

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Back to high school, if we look into the dmg multiplier formulas, we can come in to conclusion I came in the earlier paragraph with basic understanding of statistical math. Least I would category it there instead of mathematical analysis, which I would consider more of means for conclusion.

Back to elementary school for you. Even first graders know that if you don't take into account all the numbers of an equation you'll wind up with a wrong answer. Since you continue to ignore mastery bonuses and attack speed your math does just that.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Hah. The soloing of TTs started with herc and veno, aps made it faster. Prior to aps people were making farming venos, even I started leveling farming veno before I quit for year(s?) till Archosaur started. Soloing TT wasnt result of aps, it got a lot faster cause of it though.

Another true statement used poorly. For crying out loud I'm getting tired of correcting you idiots. Your statement should read "The soloing of LOW TTs started with herc venos." They couldn't hope to do any higher than 2-2 or perhaps 2-3 and even then they had to avoid the high value mats dropped by bosses a herc couldn't beat such as Wurlord. On top of that they had to pay at least three others to open it (instead of just forming an all APS party) and received far more flack for it than APSers did only a year or so later. Soling any TT with a herc also took several hours. Farm venos would complain that they could only do 2 to 3 TTs in a decent day of gaming as opposed to 6 or 7 a farm squad could run, the only consolation of course being that they kept all the mats from the bosses they could actually kill. Many venos would instead choose to use their herc to bot DQ's but that is a problem not related to this thread.

The ONLY similiarity between APS farmers and herc farmers were that both were possible only through cash shop. (If you want to go and say how APS gear was in game before packs you are welcome to. To prevent myself from writing another post wall on THAT topic I will simply say there are several reasons people didn't have them.) APS gear however could farm every TT and they could do it much quicker than herc venos could ever hope to. Herc venos made a slightly unbalanced profit off of soloing group TT runs. APSers killed it.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Both are not broken, contrary to what you may wish. APS only becomes a problem when stacked? Earlier you said it wasn't worth using unless stacked. Whatever cost it may come with is far surpassed by the shear amount of damage it puts out in record time. I also like how you aren't bringing up Blood Paint. Another mechanic that made APS even more broken than it would have been originally. "Cleric? What's that? With BP I can heal myself b:victory" Do casters get bloodpaint? Do melee venos get bloodpaint? Do pets get bloodpaint? No? And yet you still go on about how "balanced" APS is...

It isnt a problem of balance till we are talking bout massive APS. And really, low APS it`s fairly irrelevant. I myself wouldnt care jack`s **** if I have APS with axes, there are simply so many other more relevant stats with such weapon.

Bloodpaint is fairly balanced till +10 weapons and high APS. Anybody who has played "farming sins" or higher tier sins or even BMs understands this. You are talking out of your *** with no real experience.

And why dont casters get BP? I cant do anything but laugh at this point. Imo every class should get it as long as they are using melee attacks. You should be able to go slap mobs with your wand/glaive/pataka/sword/whatever and get BP healing from it. But have range attacks heal? Thats a ludicrous thought. If I equip my bow my attacks dont heal and believe or not, there is a damn good reason for it.

But suppose realism is bit too mainstream for you. I can tell you for a fact R9 DoT psy held off aggro off my sin in WS, pretty sure she was N3 +10 and 5aps that time aka high tier APS toon. Short time bursts, where replenishing chi isnt such a big deal, casters really arent that far behind in DPS as long as they are least similarly geared.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You... you are trying to make me laugh aren't you. This is all a big troll joke isn't it? You don't seem to have a grasp on anything other than the difference in base stats, and bringing in masteries just threw open the gates to the ball park. Sage mastery for cleric, veno, mystic, and wizard for all spell damage is at most 25% of specific elemental damage. What is it for melee? 90% of weapon damage. With melee venos being the only exception at 200% weapon damage. Of course, that's based off of magic weapons and usually comes tied with low strength scores. Not the 400 or so BMs achieve. Sins are even worse with Dex. The weapon mastery modifier is added on top of the bonus you get from Strength so that each STR point you put into your char yeilds greater damage returns with high damage weapons, such as axes, than APS weapons, such as fists. FYI this is one of the reasons axes are so popular in PVP.

I dont feel right responding to this w/o mocking but I also believe nobody should be mocked because they are stupid and cant help it.

The differences in how masteries work make it actually even clearer. The masteries balance the difference from statpoint modifier, higher weapon damage, higher skill dmg of casters, might of missed something. This is on early levels and low stat point modifiers. But when masteries impact on non caster classes grow smaller, the stat points modifier playes bigger part for them too and as non casters get less than casters, relative difference grows. [Edit: Rephrased to make more sense <.<]

Simplest point is from 92 to 100, where masteries are maxed.

For 92 caster, say sage psy with 25% mastery. They need what, 50 points of str(TT90)? so 45 extra point out of 455, leaving 400 for mag or total of 405.

We get damage multiplier with 1 + 405/100 = 5.05 x 1.25 = 6.31

92 sin, lets say sage sin with 90% mastery. TT90 LA so there goes 94 str, which means 89 extra points of 455. Leaves us 5 + (455-89[=366]) = 371 dex.

1 + 371 / 150 + 0.9 = 4.37

Relative difference, 6.31 - 4.37 / 4.37 x 100% = 44%

8 levels = 40 stat points

And say extra 100 points from gear, which is less than reality on high end game gear, but helps to realize difference

Lvl 100 psy needs 54 str so 40-4 = 36. This 36 and 100 added to 405 = 541

We get damage multiplier with 1 + 541/100 = 6.41 x 1.25 = 8.01

Level 100 sin needs 104 str

it`s 10 more than 94 so 40 - 10 = 30 + 100 from gear + existing 371 = 501

1 + 501 / 150 + 0.9 = 5,24

Relative difference 8.01 - 5.24 / 5.24 x 100% = 53%

The point is, at end game the difference in stat point modifier formula has bigger and bigger effect on relative dmg multiplier between classes. With R999 set bonuses, etc. The relative damage multiplier is even higher between R999 psy and R999 sin, let alone BMs/barbs who need both str and dex.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Magic weapons are not as widely varied in damage output and the mastery modifier is based off of total elemental damage, not weapon damage. This means that per refine, physical damage would yield far greater returns then magic damage, at least if we did things the way you want to. As it stands, due to the x100 mag modifier, refines for mag weapons increase total damage by increasing total elemental damage through increasing the weapons base score, then the mastery comes into play. With phys refines, physical damage gets the weapon damage increase multiplied by the mastery bonus along with the STR bonus.

Oh this is amusing, in reality it is quite the opposite if I understood half what you said. I played and treated earth mastery as weapon mastery of non caster classes. I got 22% relative difference on level 92 and 27% for level 100.

Actually magic weps refine worse as long as melee mastery is over 20% of damage multiplier. After that point, magic weapons refine better aka end game. This is simple deduction utilizing Associative laws.

Damage dealt is Y or 100% and X is damage dealt w/o earth mastery.

100% = 1.25x // 1.25
X = 100% / 1.25
X = 80%

100% - 80% = 20%

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

How do I know this? As a physical veno my melee score is dwarfed by my mag score with a low refine weapon. At +10 They become about equal. Both my STR and my MAG sit at about 315, so there isn't a large discrepancy in stats and I have both masteries maxed. Granted my weapon damage is 200% and not 90% but the fact remains that masteries increase physical damage with weapon refines more than they increase elemental damage with refines. If you want to make the argument that refines shouldn't matter with balance between classes then you might have a valid argument, key word being "might". However this is a CS game and of course PWI would want you to refine your weapons to attain "balance". I should point out however, that just because my scores are equal at +10 doesn't mean my damages are balanced. My physical attack rate far surpasses my magic attack rate. If they both do similar damage I wouldn't call that balanced at all. BTW why don't you use attack rates in your calculations? Such as the APS attack rate you keep championing?

Ohkey. 200% = 2 on multiplier.

1 + 315/150 + 2 = 5.1

2 / 5.1 x 100% = 39.2% which is in fact over 20%.

Rest of the paragraph is rendered pointless as this was already explained on my earlier paragraph.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Back to elementary school for you. Even first graders know that if you don't take into account all the numbers of an equation you'll wind up with a wrong answer. Since you continue to ignore mastery bonuses and attack speed your math does just that.

Taking attack speed into account would be stupid, it only really affects PvE with end game gear as due purify proc most of end game PvP has changed into skill spamming, making attack speed mostly irrelevant factor. And imo channeling/set factors (the skill dmg) should be where attack speed is matched, not damage multiplier. But this part, of course, is simply my own opinion.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Another true statement used poorly. For crying out loud I'm getting tired of correcting you idiots. Your statement should read "The soloing of LOW TTs started with herc venos." They couldn't hope to do any higher than 2-2 or perhaps 2-3 and even then they had to avoid the high value mats dropped by bosses a herc couldn't beat such as Wurlord. On top of that they had to pay at least three others to open it (instead of just forming an all APS party) and received far more flack for it than APSers did only a year or so later. Soling any TT with a herc also took several hours. Farm venos would complain that they could only do 2 to 3 TTs in a decent day of gaming as opposed to 6 or 7 a farm squad could run, the only consolation of course being that they kept all the mats from the bosses they could actually kill. Many venos would instead choose to use their herc to bot DQ's but that is a problem not related to this thread.

I suppose my friend didnt solo 3-1(all bosses included) or farm 3-2/3-3, obviously skipping some bosses, on his veno? I can say for a fact 9x veno soloed full 3-1, only problematic part may be Djinn due timer but honestly, you can pull sorceress trough door anyway, well least I saw it done. Abusing a glitch, sure, doesnt change the fact of it happening. Only real difference here is speed, you think average aps sins solo full 3-2/3-3? Rofl. Yes, best sins do that but then again we are talking bout those with +11-12 on everything. Dont really know how sages compare to that though.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The ONLY similiarity between APS farmers and herc farmers were that both were possible only through cash shop. (If you want to go and say how APS gear was in game before packs you are welcome to. To prevent myself from writing another post wall on THAT topic I will simply say there are several reasons people didn't have them.) APS gear however could farm every TT and they could do it much quicker than herc venos could ever hope to. Herc venos made a slightly unbalanced profit off of soloing group TT runs. APSers killed it.

Herc is 200g, less on sales? Do you have any idea what soloing 3-1 efficiently nowdays, or higher ones, requires? I can do it, though beast can kill me in 3-1 on bad day. Want to guess what my gear is worth? Despite N3 daggers worth plummeting, I have to say 1.2-1.3b. Or put in gold, which at ~1m according to vent, it`s 1.2-1.3k, over 6 times more than effing herc. Yeah, I think I deserve to solo it quicker than veno with a herc.

Ps. I see you didnt follow your own advice, a shame.

Edit: Always double check your thinking <.<.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Psshh... all I'm getting from the blah blah blah above is that you're pissed that your original elitist system got replaced by another... full stop. And all that b.s. about Barbs/Clerics being allowed to get first picks due to higher repair costs is just that... B.S. You choose to play the class that has certain drawbacks (higher repair/MP costs) ?

You accept and learn to live with the higher maintenance that comes with the class... not try to recoup your costs at every opportunity at the expense of the rest of the squad.

If you're going to compare an elitist system to another elitist system, you'd better take a look at what elements form the basis of the elitism. It wasn't just repair/charm costs that factored into preference to barbs/clerics. It was the fact that - guess what - barbs and clerics were the rarest classes, and there's going to be natural advantages to that.

Let's be honest on something, here... nobody wanted the hard jobs back in the day. Nobody wanted to be the tank responsible for holding aggro against all the squishies who'd complain if they stole aggro and died. Nobody wanted to be the cleric who was charged with watching the HP counts of four or five idiots determined to deplete them at all costs. That wasn't anybody's idea of a good time. All anyone wanted to do was DD, pew pew pew, OMG LOOK AT THE DAMAGE I DO, EPEEN++;

Even today you get signs of that. Today's BH squad makeups are an uncanny echo of those old TTs. You can do them without a barb, sure, but it's a lot easier and smoother with one. I can't help but chuckle every time I see a squad begging for barb + cleric in world chat. Sometimes when I'm making a squad with my barb, I'll ask how many are in their squad to see if I can merge w/them. Well what a surprise, there are four of them in squad and they're all DDs. To which I say, "gl with that," and continue choosing from my selection of dime-a-dozen sins in world chat.

Is that fair? Well maybe not, but neither is having all the responsibility and still having to give equal resources (be it TT mats or time spent forming BH squads) to the LOL PEW PEW crowd. You can't have it both ways. Nobody's stopping you from rolling a barb or a cleric.

But as Kisz pointed out, if you still had a problem with that system? Sub the run! It's not hard to find a few mid-level mats, and it's still cheaper than the barb's repair bill or the cleric's charm cost. If you couldn't do that, you had no right to whine about not having a rarely-significant advantage in a round robin mat choosing system.

Today's elitism, by contrast, is a much simpler and cruder equation where damage = worth. Oh, how far our lovely pixel society has come. >_>

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yes, we tend to stick together if we're spamming instances. If someone has 500m in gear, they want to run with other people who are on par with them, not people who do a fraction of the damage, hardly contribute, and want an equal share. If we're doing a single BH, or less than 5 Nirvanas then who cares though? 1 minute slower Nirvanas wasn't worth neglecting anyone if you were only doing 3 runs and it'd take 5 minutes longer to find a 6th person. It only became important when we were talking about doing 20+ Nirvanas.

Pro derail. Call my thread QQ then tangent with your 2 year old QQ. W

Oh no, someone countered your QQ with their QQ? How terrible. Good thing discussion about aps has been around longer than discussion about magic damage multipliers, or you'd have had no arbitrarily-defined measure of relevancy to point out.

Sorry, but 500m of broken gear doesn't entitle you to jack. If they fixed aps tomorrow, the wielder of that gear would have no ground to stand on, because he knew full well what he was doing when he bought/farmed it. No instance, certainly not TT or Nirvana, was designed to allow farming of the magnitude people rationalize today. 20+ Nirvana runs would be a day-long marathon if aps gear wasn't as broken as it is. In 2009, spending 500m+ on your gear meant you were cerifiably insane (and quite possibly CS'd a good portion of it), and that you would never get your investment back in any reasonable amount of time.

The problem with aps is that it moves the baseline for what people consider reasonable. In 2009, one TT run per hour was reasonable and five per hour was insane. In 2013, five runs per hour is reasonable and one run per hour means you're just laughable. It's all in how you frame it.

It's good that you don't carry the elitism into BH squad creation, though... props for that.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

So much win b:victory

Personally, I give up on them. If they haven't figured out how characters attack in the years they're played pwi we're not gonna explain it to them while they apsrage at us.

But ty for the math and bringing things back on point. Is 100 points = 100% damage for casters but 150 points = 100% more damage for melees fair? Or is it unfair and something that should be brought to the public and pw development teams attention?

nope cos as aps was part of what devs at the time tho was in between ok so would i asume this would be.


is it broken well i can say its not more broken then the former broken mechanism some bm and sin have been using for two years stright.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

equal refining rates. While imo shards should be the same, fists/claws/daggers should of never have been set to same refine rate as axes.

They don't, and never have. Been a long while, but think it's in the 7X% rate of fist refinement vs. BM's other weapons (wanna say 72%)

EDIT: For claws/fists anyways.

Sylvae - Sanctuary wrote: »

They don't, and never have. Been a long while, but think it's in the 7X% rate of fist refinement vs. BM's other weapons (wanna say 72%)

EDIT: For claws/fists anyways.

Interesting, I read it somewhere and never questioned <.<. Note to self, always double check the information <.<. Though I was partially right it seems, refine rates play a part, though not like I thought.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

APS barb with G16 claws/fists is tankier than sin but deals less dmg. Id call aps barb balanced compared to aps sin or BM.

Str barb though? The problem here is low base attack speed of axes/whatever you are using. Obviously smaller dph requires higher dps for balance but problem is garnet shards and equal refining rates. While imo shards should be the same, fists/claws/daggers should of never have been set to same refine rate as axes. And attack speed should of been % based increase, not flat time between attacks based as it doesnt treat weapon types equally.

I think this is ultimately PvE build vs PvP build, least among barbs. I dont think every build should be absolutely equal on everything. APS barb has clearly less defenses, more restrictions on gear and lacking dph compared to str barbs. Clawbarbs are also mostly stationary for dps. For PvE, apsing on bosses, all these weaknesses of build are irrelevant after certain point of refines/shards.



then all ur point so far is pretty much fail

you guys talk off all the coin you guys invested and yet fail to see how **** up aps screws with balance cost wise and pve.

1st you guys try to defend ur costly build with coin

then when i say fien if i put same coin on my build i woudl do the same u come with something like low speed with axes.

then u admit u use a hax system to get the most of it and ur coin is moot and u aknowldge aps is hax.

otherwise same coin would make all classes have same benefit.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Comparing what a herc cost in 2008 to what APS gear cost in 2010 after packs came out is just stupid and wrong. Your also conveniently leaving out that while APS gear worked well in both PVE and PVP, hercs sucked in PVP and if venos wanted a broken PVP pet they needed to throw down another 200 gold for a nix. 400 gold and we haven't even gotten to the cost of training and upgrading skills. Not factoring in time, its about another 5 million coin, ALOT back before APS caused massive inflation in coins on the servers and raised the gold market, driving up the cost of veno CS pets as well. Throwing your N3 gear in there while you're at it? I don't think I need to say any more on the subject.

Hercs didn't exist in our game when it came out, pretty sure it wasn't out until 2009. And that was the same year gold had its major inflation, not because of APS (which can't inflate the coins in game, only transfer), but because of the packs. And getting the items was expensive, due to rarity of the items compared to the amount of people who wanted them. It wasn't even until 2010 that most of the late comer BMs and archer even started going wholesale into APS for the purposes of farming: which is around the cost he mentioned.

Man, it's like reading a Wikipedia in here for the level of factual information so many are utilizing for their proof.

Sylvae - Sanctuary wrote: »

Hercs didn't exist in our game when it came out, pretty sure it wasn't out until 2009. And that was the same year gold had its major inflation, not because of APS (which can't inflate the coins in game, only transfer), but because of the packs. And getting the items was expensive, due to rarity of the items compared to the amount of people who wanted them. It wasn't even until 2010 that most of the late comer BMs and archer even started going wholesale into APS for the purposes of farming: which is around the cost he mentioned.

Man, it's like reading a Wikipedia in here for the level of factual information so many are utilizing for their proof.

and yet there no proof of how to make a simular melee barb build with the same cost of these non so haxed aps build they so wish to defend.

all i want is for these player to admit that aps is pure hax for pve and farming purpose

and that all the qq wish come from aps is true.

then and only then will i be happy to discus this purify and magic muli these ppl are feeling is unjust.


let me tell you something

these pve build do matter cos the ymake mone yand money can make pvp build for sero cost once u have it.

so it does **** up balance


now all go and make a formula for everyone to be god in pve lol

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I admit, I am going from memory when it comes to the time hercs came out. Five years of playing this game off and on does tend to make things run together. If it was out in 2009 I know it was out in early 2009 (Spring I believe though it could have been summer) and the herc/nix issues were well established before the first anniversary packs came out in September. Regardless the difference in the economies of early 2009 before anni packs and late 2010 when APS was all over the place was drastic. APS did have a hand in this. After APS became more popular pack demand increased and the small packages were suddenly far less reviled. Aside from TT's, which dropped mirage stones as well as mats, APSers also farmed DQ's. I even remember a thread where there was argument about how APS could outkill a chain of mobs over any other DD. In fact many bots plaguing the servers right now are APS toons. Even if they didn't farm DQ's other classes ended up having to since, as I mentioned earlier, they got cut out of the farming circle. Throw in the desire to hyper a new toon to 100 so one could use the APS = profit formula more quickly and you have an even further demand for gold. In fact there was a time hyper stone sales dictated the gold market and APS wannabees were huge consumers of said stones. Also, gold sellers realized that if they could hold out for more coins from the desperate APSers they could buy more mats from them, further increasing gold prices. It didn't help the in game economy that the prices for said mats were dropping drastically, further hurting casual farmers, as more and more competitors entered the APS market hoping to make quick coin. I'm not sure entirely when the whole cycle of coins for Hypers for APS for Farming for Gold for Packs for P2W gear eventually stopped. I only remember the next huge hit to the gold market was rank sales for the new R8 gear.

Again, APS can't inflate the cost of gold, unless the bosses being farmed themselves dropped tons of coins instead of mats. They transfer coins by someone giving the coins to the APSer for the mats. The problem was the first anni packs were ridiculously good drop rates, with a Best Luck Token being found about 1 in every 20. That flooded the heck out of the market with constant 5 million coin streams. That was when it started going up to 600K per gold, as opposed to the 200K caused by perfect hammer/chest of coins inflation.

And hercs being out in spring actually hinders cost comparison being in your favor, except for a CSer point of view. Because 200 gold does sound alot higher than 20 million coins, which is what it was equivalent to when herc came out. And that could be farmed in normal grind leveling in less than a month pretty easily.

And the cost of the gear going up was due to more money being in the game from the Best Lucks. With guaranteed profit from early openings, and reselling the tokens for all the trade items, until gold price went higher you were guaranteed profit even without selling the big ticket items. Gold had to go up, until there was some risk involved in opening the pack itself.

DQ bots wouldn't need APS to be efficient, it depends on mob dispersion on spawning more than anything. Getting a high mob concentration and spamming skills away would work just as effective, only thing to worry about is picking it up. And straight DD (sins didn't exist then, so going with BM) was not as effective as a bot that could AoE for maximum drops. Trust me, I did both leveling up on my BM back then. And while Fist was a generally more enjoyable lazy way to do it, it didn't mean more effective.

Also, no one was really getting Deicides when the packs first came out anyways. It was either HS, Pan Gu, or Neon Purgatory that everyone was getting. So even if on your server the price of gold was increasing due to those specific items only, it would actually disprove APS was responsible. Again, the vast majority did not even switch until around Marchish of 2010 to APS.

Hyper FCC leveling didn't come around into vogue right away either. No one wanted low levels in the group, so it was mostly level yourself up to 85 and then FCC hyper. The running thing came about around a year later or so. There might have been a few, but the hypers were in so demand as a better version of the XP scroll for people doing AoE leveling in between Gammas and Deltas.

Just gonna jump in here and say that Hercules and Phoenix were released with The Lost Empire expansion in PWI which happened around December 2008. I could be a little off on the actual month but it was around that time.

Sylvae - Sanctuary wrote: »

I know OHT was released the first week or 2 of Dec 08 during the X2 week, so if it also had legendary pets that'd be the time frame. So a month before 2009, when gold would actually go for 90K at times.

Yeah, you're right. The Lost Empire brought OHT, Chrono chain quest, lvl79 skills, Legendary pets and Sage/Demon Cultivation as seen here.

Enough of the off topic though b:chuckle back on topic now!