Is 100 magic per damage multiplier still fair?

____BM____ - Sanctuary

Skaitavia wrote: »

For LA classes (Assassins and Archers), their damage is calculated via dexterity rather than strength, which means more dex on an archer/sin = more damage for them. The crit, accuracy, and evasion bonuses are pluses.

Awww Skai you didn't scroll down far enough did you b:surrender

MiniST - Sanctuary

____BM____ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Hmm... Have you seen no trolls on the forums...? Pretty sure 100% of them look like idiots, ijs b:bye

fail trolls look like idiots, successful ones make you go "f u" and rage. Look at sanctuary forums, the jnd w/e his name is is pretty good at it even though most of the people that posted in his thread are egotistic morons...

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear

So.... what's the argument here? That +100 Mag for R9s3 is broken? Of course it is. Why are we arguing about it? It's essentially +20 levels for any caster that puts on R9s3 with all the other stat bonuses and att/def levels to boot.

Purify on weapon is broken too? Yep, once again the arguments here are pointless. In a nutshell everyone is arguing about what proc/bonus/stat amount is MORE broken which in itself is laughably wrong. Is PWE (or Wanmei) going t fix it? Experience says no, they are just going to break it further.

I have given up hope of these issues ever being properly addressed and have decided to just live with brokenness of it all. However, if you still have problems with it the solution isn't to ask for more breaks to counter broken gear. It's to STOP GIVING PWI MONEY TO BREAK IT. Of course I expect the trolls and heavy CSer's to start going on about how buying broken gear pays for the game etc... etc... but there are plenty of things in the boutique one can buy that are not inherently game breaking and one can still have a lot of fun with. Charms, PACKS, safety scrolls, D ORBS, mounts, flyers, just to name a few. Do they rake in the money that R9 does? Probably not, but with a well designed game with planned longetivity it's perfectly possible for any company to make a tidy profit with the amount of things PWI sells in the boutique these days. Couple that with the possible return of casual players and its a win win for all.

Of course, as many of you might claim from reading that statement, we don't live in a "Perfect World" and the above scenario can be looked at as idealistic at best and sadly unattainable at worst. That being the case however the point remains. If you truly want the game to change for the better you have to take a stand and refuse to buy into the R9 power craze. Since many of the people still playing the game aren't going to do that, the game is going to remain a broken mess and PWI will look at the complaints and see ways to make more broken gear for more $$$. There really isn't anything more to say about it than that.

I have to wonder... how much of this might have been solved if they just put a damn cap on APS in the first place....

Quilue - Sanctuary

Can you people at least understand the opening post and the thread topic before posting?

"100 magic per damage multiplier" might not be the clearest way to express it, but the meaning should have been clear from the post.

Physical damage from stats is calculated by dividing your character's relevant attribute by 150 (dex for range, str for melee)

Magic damage is calculated by dividing magic by 100.

So a BM with 600 strength gets a 4x multiplier to his/her weapon attack from stats, whereas a wizard with 600 magic gets a 6x multiplier to his/her weapon attack.

OP's point is considering the fact that physical classes have to allocate more of their non-primary stats to wear gear and for accuracy (except for ranged wep and dagger users), so is it fair for caster classes to still have the higher weapon attack multiplier from their primary stat? Consider also the fact that there are more physical defense buffs available than magic defense buffs.

Obviously, this debate cannot be valid without a comparison of weapon attack and attack speed between the various classes, and you'd also have to consider range vs melee.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So.... what's the argument here? That +100 Mag for R9s3 is broken? Of course it is. Why are we arguing about it? It's essentially +20 levels for any caster that puts on R9s3 with all the other stat bonuses and att/def levels to boot.

Purify on weapon is broken too? Yep, once again the arguments here are pointless. In a nutshell everyone is arguing about what proc/bonus/stat amount is MORE broken which in itself is laughably wrong. Is PWE (or Wanmei) going t fix it? Experience says no, they are just going to break it further.

I have given up hope of these issues ever being properly addressed and have decided to just live with brokenness of it all. However, if you still have problems with it the solution isn't to ask for more breaks to counter broken gear. It's to STOP GIVING PWI MONEY TO BREAK IT. Of course I expect the trolls and heavy CSer's to start going on about how buying broken gear pays for the game etc... etc... but there are plenty of things in the boutique one can buy that are not inherently game breaking and one can still have a lot of fun with. Charms, PACKS, safety scrolls, D ORBS, mounts, flyers, just to name a few. Do they rake in the money that R9 does? Probably not, but with a well designed game with planned longetivity it's perfectly possible for any company to make a tidy profit with the amount of things PWI sells in the boutique these days. Couple that with the possible return of casual players and its a win win for all.

Of course, as many of you might claim from reading that statement, we don't live in a "Perfect World" and the above scenario can be looked at as idealistic at best and sadly unattainable at worst. That being the case however the point remains. If you truly want the game to change for the better you have to take a stand and refuse to buy into the R9 power craze. Since many of the people still playing the game aren't going to do that, the game is going to remain a broken mess and PWI will look at the complaints and see ways to make more broken gear for more $$$. There really isn't anything more to say about it than that.

I have to wonder... how much of this might have been solved if they just put a damn cap on APS in the first place....

...you are seriously my new favorite person. Pretty much everything here is right on the money. Though I'd argue that packs facilitate a good amount of brokenness as well, considering the presence of things like Vit stones and DoT/DoD in them (to say nothing of the "oh hey, let's pretend you did 1000 hours of PVE for this" gears :P).

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote:

There is me... who trolled people by making them believe/question the existance of ignore def level charms.

You're a troll? o.o

And here I thought all that "bum at the edge of existence" stuff was a compliment. :P

I should totally make that my title... >_>

Hexalot - Dreamweaver

What this really comes down to is that the HA classes alone get screwed when it comes to how much damage they deal based on both the lower strength multiplier compared to the castor classes, and the fact that they have to sacrifice strength to allocate an inordinate amount in alternative stats (in this case dex) to both use their gear and boost accuracy.

Magic classes have little to complain about since they have much lower strength requirements on gear, can virtually ignore dex (since accuracy is not a factor) and have the highest damage multiplier off their mag stats compared to all other classes.

LA classes multiplier is lower than castors as well but still they come out smelling like roses since their main stat (dexterity) increases both direct damage, accuracy and crit. Talk about a win win scenario.

HA classes as mentioned above, get the worse of all worlds and it's no wonder then that they alone (with the exception of Sins I guess) get to have GoF on their weapons to try somewhat to close the damage gap.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Can you people at least understand the opening post and the thread topic before posting?

"100 magic per damage multiplier" might not be the clearest way to express it, but the meaning should have been clear from the post.

Physical damage from stats is calculated by dividing your character's relevant attribute by 150 (dex for range, str for melee)

Magic damage is calculated by dividing magic by 100.

So a BM with 600 strength gets a 4x multiplier to his/her weapon attack from stats, whereas a wizard with 600 magic gets a 6x multiplier to his/her weapon attack.

OP's point is considering the fact that physical classes have to allocate more of their non-primary stats to wear gear, is it fair for caster classes to still have the higher weapon attack multiplier from their primary stat? Consider also the fact that there are more physical defense buffs available than magic defense buffs.

Obviously, this debate cannot be valid without a comparison of weapon attack and attack speed between the various classes, and you'd also have to consider range vs melee.

Well now, this is a more interesting argument. However, the answer, and the surrounding issues, are not the complicated.

Back in the days of yore, when axe BM's were the only BM out there, and the most broken thing in the game was the CS phoenix, the damage multiplier of magic was accounted for by mag classes needing VIT to survive high refined axe BMs and having something called chanelling time. Now, for those of you that don't know what chanelling time is, its something that made spells take quite a while to cast, perhaps 3 seconds or so for even the most basic ones. This meant that casters needed to do more damage per hit as they would only get perhaps one, maybe two before the BM or barb was on top of them and doing their phys damage at 1-2 attacks per second. Yes, that's right 1 MAYBE 2 attacks PER SECOND. This coupled with the fact that HA armor gives more mag def than AA armor gives physical defense and the necessity to do more mag damage is quite apparent.

Ok, history lesson over. So what about now? Today we have casters with -50 to 70% (or more) channeling time, AA armor with insane phys def boosts, and mag weapons refined to +12 giving anywhere from 20-50k magic attack base with 600-700 mag.

We also have 600-700 dex archers that also do 20-40k phys damage per hit (sometimes more) with a faster firing time then bows and crossbows were ever meant to be fired. Barbs with 25-30k HP (with non CS gears I might add), Sins with 5 APS that also have 500 or more dex doing 10-25k or so base hit (without crits) , and the loveable BMs with HF and axes and lets not forget that wonderfull pulling skill they have.

So should the 100x damage multiplier for magic weapons be changed? The answer is NO, because the base formula of the game is not what's broken. What's broken is the level and abilities of gear players have equipped nowadays. Change the base formula and you change everything about the class from the ground up. Not just how they perform at 100+ with OP gear. This means that low level clerics, wizzies, and venos, will have a far harder time at lower levels because they aren't doing the type of damage they are supposed to while still having many of the chanelling and armor limitation that still exist at levels below 100.

In the end, no matter how you approach it, the problem is not the base formula of the game (save for APS but that was an error that was exploited by both players and devs) it is the gear that players are equipping. Changing the gear would take care of far more problems than changing the formula, but the devs aren't about to do that and the player base would riot if they did. My previous argument remains. IF YOU DON"T LIKE THE WAY THE GAME IS GOING STOP BUYING OP GEAR. The Devs can "fix" any formula they want to (heck venos are getting their formulas changed here sometime soon) but if you keep buying the next nuke that comes out, your opponents are going to want nukes too, and that formula change won't make a bit of difference.

SAZDarkborn - Heavens Tear

dude.. why are u aftr casters plz.. we are easy kill.. and nw u wanna take away our damage too.. we are knwn as glass canons.. we dnt have def.. neither do we get vit.. trust me we dnt get hp at all unless refined.. still.. and our def physical is quite low... so.. yea.. let us be.. and we dnt get GOF or 60-70% crit rate evr..so be cool njy...

Quilue - Sanctuary

Actually, the "formulas" of the game are incredibly broken. Despite what you may think you know, class balance is extremely skewed at all levels because of these "formulas." It's only end-game people posting their observations because anyone else would just be told to "level up". One example of this is the fact that archers can pretty much face roll every class pre-endgame.

You needn't worry about "low level clerics and venos doing less damage" or whatever **** that's about, because it's simple matter to just adjust the add-on damage of spells at various levels anyway. At endgame, where you actually have a lot of stats and everyone's abilities are maxed out, this difference is much more noticeable, that is why some see a need to have this discussion.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Actually, the "formulas" of the game are incredibly broken. Despite what you may think you know, class balance is extremely skewed at all levels because of these "formulas." It's only end-game people posting their observations because anyone else would just be told to "level up". One example of this is the fact that archers can pretty much face roll every class pre-endgame.

You needn't worry about "low level clerics and venos doing less damage" or whatever **** that's about, because it's simple matter to just adjust the add-on damage of spells at various levels anyway. At endgame, where you actually have a lot of stats and everyone's abilities are maxed out, this difference is much more noticeable, that is why some see a need to have this discussion.

Why are you putting formulas in quotes? Are you trying to be ironic? Like formulas don't exist? I thought that's what this discussion was about, and I would certainly hope they exist as without them the damage we give and receive must be limited only by the reaches of our collective imaginations. (Which would actually be quite interesting)

As for not worrying about the damage of low level classes you are absolutely right but not for the reason you stated. I don't have to worry about it because there are so few low level classes in the game anymore, but that is another problem for another thread.

You mention end game is where the problem becomes more noticeable. Now why would that be? Certainly nothing to do with OP Gears and gear discrepencies between players I'm sure. No, the problem must certainly stem from a broken mathematical equation that according to you might not even exist.

I could argue the fundemantals of class balance and how it doesn't equal A = B = C = D but in fact runs A > B > C > D > A but I feel I would just be wasting my key strokes since that's obviously not your definition of balance. Archers face roll every class in pregame? Since when? Archers were perhaps one of the most underplayed classes a long time ago because their low def meant barbs would catch them and kill them before they could do enough damage, veno pets would cause them greif, and BMs would stun lock them to absolutely nothing. The only classes they could beat consistently were wizards and at times clerics. With Morai skills their abilities have improved but Moria was not meant to bring balance to the 1-99 game it was meant to appease players and give a semblance of balance in the 100+ game.

I have nothing against this discussion, but I will point out the fundamental flaws with it and arguing to nerf an old equation based on the R9s3 sphere that psychic used to hit you for over 20k is a fundamental flaw.

You want the equations changed? Good, so do I, but they would have to be changed for EVERYONE not just a specific class. Is that what people really want? Somehow, I don't feel it is.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

To all this, I can only repeat what I've been saying for (literally) years now: Fix what's broken, don't break what isn't.

Loving this discussion quite a bit... will continue to watch it.

FaceRolI - Sanctuary

random note:
most casters are still hovering 3x-4x chan, (overall though casters do have more -chan then before though) but there are very very few 7x+ or even 6x.

though 5x and high 4x is pretty feasible. most players arent too keen on chan due to all the sacrifices in everything else... (defense, matk, crit in particular). a high mag/dph/crit build definetly outperforms my build by far.

anyways please continue. just wanted to add to the particular point about chan n_n

Sylvae - Sanctuary

FaceRolI - Sanctuary wrote: »

random note:
most casters are still hovering 3x-4x chan, (overall though casters do have more -chan then before though) but there are very very few 7x+ or even 6x.

though 5x and high 4x is pretty feasible. most players arent too keen on chan due to all the sacrifices in everything else... (defense, matk, crit in particular). a high mag/dph/crit build definetly outperforms my build by far.

anyways please continue. just wanted to add to the particular point about chan n_n

Yeah, they seem to be going the route with both mechanisms that scale to be better the more that it's stacked with the newer gear: less -int for physical damage and less -chan for casters. Forces people to choose between high levels of ATK/DEF + stat boost, or higher DPS.

Hannsel - Dreamweaver

the 100 modifier is fine since

1. phy classes can choose btn skills and normal attacks, arcanes have no auto attack. so all our damage is from spells.
2. AA have slow attack rate (1 per 3sec max spell rate)
3. low crit rates

the higher modifier compansates for this limitations.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

I don't know about magic, but I think 60 crit is too much, to survive a R9rr archer more then 2 shots I would need over 15k hp.

It's what I think is broken the whole btw the end game and not end game. I'm 3rd Nirvana and on 3 sparks crit I do less then 1k to a R9rr while they do 7k crit + all the time, they always crit. I think they need to stop push higher the end game gears and give more challenge in a other way, there's nothing challenging for a R9rrr archer to one shot everyone, I know a archer R9rr that don't play anymore for that reason, he can sit afk and people cannot kill him while he one shot people without even use skill.

That's the problem, people can be total idiot that don't know how to play, but if they press ''O'' or get a rich hubby/wife they can beat everyone.

I personally think they need to nerf every class so that come back at the most skilled person will win pvp fight over the biggest credit card.

I miss when TT99 was end game gears, cause even people with TT90 or OHT was able to beat TT99 if they was skilled now someone in R8 or nirvy gear cannot beat a R9rr even if he's more skill.

Sometime when we are bored we go 10 people of my faction do GBQ then we gank our director that is R9rr Wizz, at 9 people it take us a while to take him down and we are not a bunch of idiot that don't know our class, but we don't even do 1k on him while he can 1-2 shots people not R9rr.

The range is to far. They should put a max attack and defense level a person can get, to something like 50 of each.

I mean how you want a 3rd nirvy recast or even a R9 to take down someone with 110 att level and as much def lvl? I think the def and att lvl is a issue too.

Jaabg - Sanctuary

Hannsel - Dreamweaver wrote: »

the 100 modifier is fine since

1. phy classes can choose btn skills and normal attacks, arcanes have no auto attack. so all our damage is from spells.
2. AA have slow attack rate (1 per 3sec max spell rate)
3. low crit rates

the higher modifier compansates for this limitations.

1) Magic call can do that as well, it depends on gear. If axes are good on bm, you won't auto attack on axes.

2) skills for bm take 1.7~2.8 seconds as well, doesn't mean we don't use skills.

3) most of us have 17~27 crit rate. Not sure about casters, but they crit to.

4) Wizzy, psychics can get insane amount of pdef. Quite a few wizzy have more pdef than i do with bell+phy marrow.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Most of the discussion in here has gone pretty off topic =/

My question is do we think its fair that casters get 6-7 (600-700 magic) damage multipliers for their weapon endgame from stats while many other classes walk around with only 2-3 (300-450 str).

Caster weapons refine as well as axes, which is the highest refining melee weapon. But for every point of refine of a caster weapon you get 1/100 x damage multipliers, while for every point of an axe or hammer you only get 1/150 x damage multipliers, and thats of the strongest melee weapon. Caster weapons are refining higher than swords, daggers, pole, fists anyways, then getting higher multipliers from it.

And the r9t3 set bonus of 100 points, while not a huge issue, is 100% more weapon damage for casters but only 66% more weapon damage for melee.

FaceRolI - Sanctuary wrote: »

though 5x and high 4x is pretty feasible. most players arent too keen on chan due to all the sacrifices in everything else... (defense, matk, crit in particular). a high mag/dph/crit build definetly outperforms my build by far.

In pvp both classes suffer channeling time. Even sins and BMs have largely switched away from aps to a skill spam technique so attack rate is somewhat equal (or largely variable) between any class now. This was an excellent post, showing that even focusing on defense, magic attack (dph), and crit many casters can walk around with -40-50% channeling. They also can boist BM like defenses, and crits in the 20-30% range, again, similar to the HA classes.

Melees usually have quicker cast animations though, but our channeling can be similar, until you consider -channeling gear on a caster. In that case casters can often be skill spamming faster than melees while starting at about a 30m range. Casters also are more likely to carry channeling reducing apoths. Wizards specifically can alternate that with Essential Sutra to be nightmares.

Nry - Lost City

Hannsel - Dreamweaver wrote: »

the 100 modifier is fine since

1. phy classes can choose btn skills and normal attacks, arcanes have no auto attack. so all our damage is from spells.
2. AA have slow attack rate (1 per 3sec max spell rate)
3. low crit rates

the higher modifier compansates for this limitations.

you can auto attack

Sylvae - Sanctuary

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

In pvp both classes suffer channeling time. Even sins and BMs have largely switched away from aps to a skill spam technique so attack rate is somewhat equal (or largely variable) between any class now. This was an excellent post, showing that even focusing on defense, magic attack (dph), and crit many casters can walk around with -40-50% channeling. They also can boist BM like defenses, and crits in the 20-30% range, again, similar to the HA classes.

Melees usually have quicker cast animations though, but our channeling can be similar, until you consider -channeling gear on a caster. In that case casters can often be skill spamming faster than melees while starting at about a 30m range. Casters also are more likely to carry channeling reducing apoths. Wizards specifically can alternate that with Essential Sutra to be nightmares.

Think this is what you want to stick with for your main focus; whereas before APS was a counter-point, the introduction of Purify has removed its ability to offset the need to use pure skill damage when trying to take an end gamer down. Because of it coming down to channel vs. channel, with melee range being an extra handicap all its own, the old equalizer may no longer be needed. As well, the time for them to likely work in a fix and it filter down, would see many more people with the endgame gear that would require it. Especially since we can likely expect these http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/quest/27942, in the next year of the snake pack.

I think that is the main drive you're going for here.

EDIT: Was about to add in how MageBane could be useful, but then: Purify. So nevermind on that.

Valirah - Sanctuary

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

there's nothing challenging for a R9rrr archer to one shot everyone, I know a archer R9rr that don't play anymore for that reason, he can sit afk and people cannot kill him while he one shot people without even use skill.

Maybe he should stop farming L30 nubs.

In equal gear, R999 archers aren't one shotting anyone.

Decus - Dreamweaver

Valirah - Sanctuary wrote: »

Maybe he should stop farming L30 nubs.

In equal gear, R999 archers aren't one shotting anyone.

I was going to say the same thing

VKnightV - Lost City

,aybe you should abbonden ur fist and go pure axe.

for use of fist u need almost 200 dex

for just axe u need 55 dex

do the math

there u have ur missing points

do we really need to keep this dumb thread alive.


a farming bm is qqing his choice of gear lets him get less multiplier


u will 99% hit any caster trust me caster dont usally have dex on there builds.

_JlN_ - Heavens Tear

It's not the build that is being questioned, it's the multiplier.
Even with a pure strength build for axes, a bms damage multiplier which requires 150 points in strength is not equal to what an arcane class recieves for 100 points in magic.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

VKnightV - Lost City wrote: »

,aybe you should abbonden ur fist and go pure axe.

for use of fist u need almost 200 dex

for just axe u need 55 dex

do the math

there u have ur missing points

do we really need to keep this dumb thread alive.


a farming bm is qqing his choice of gear lets him get less multiplier


u will 99% hit any caster trust me caster dont usally have dex on there builds.

Check the BM forums. To keep up with Sins and Archer many of us have talked about taking dex up as high as 300, simply because missing a stun can kill you. With +stat adds many casters even walk around with 60-80 dex base, not guaranteeing an HF or stun will land. Its really frustrating to run into a group of people stun and HF and have several of your HFs miss. Its even more hillarious when a sage BM runs in and stuns and half the people are anti-stunned and he misses the other half.

And in PvP fists still allow us a few extra taps in during skill spam sequence, valuable skills require chi, and we utilize them for chi growth.

Simply put (I trust you need things simplified) 200 dex is the most practical PvP dex amount, not a "farmer's build". It just works that 200 is also the most practical pve amount, also.

Alsiadorra - Sanctuary

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Every 100 points into magic a caster will deal their weapons damage more. If their weapon damage is 2-3k, then every 100 points they get another 2-3k damage to their base attack. Every other class its 150 points/multiplier.

This is assuming the caster upgrades their weapon, but even then, it's usually a while before the next weapon and it has to be the right one. If you're serious about damage you don't go with wands, for example, but then you're screwed if you're stuck in the level range where that's all that's available. So all and all caster magic damage can be subject to bottle necking.

Note: Pre Rank/nirvana stuff. Obviously those wont cause bottle necking.

VKnightV - Lost City

did i heard you right about aiming for 300 dex even tho dex just give you acc crith and evesion.

and if that is what u meant why would you ask for a damage boost.

its ur choice to get ur dex higher.

but the class always been str based since i played this game so far as 2007 in pw_my.

as far acc u can get a acuricy pot.


and again its UR choice to go pure dex so you will have to deal with ur damage being ****.

____BM____ - Sanctuary

VKnightV - Lost City wrote: »

did i heard you right about aiming for 300 dex even tho dex just give you acc crith and evesion.

and if that is what u meant why would you ask for a damage boost.

its ur choice to get ur dex higher.

but the class always been str based since i played this game so far as 2007 in pw_my.

as far acc u can get a acuricy pot.


and again its UR choice to go pure dex so you will have to deal with ur damage being ****.

55 dex means you won't be hitting anyone, period. Archers and sins rolling around with mental evasion means your chance of doing anything as a bm is made mute.

Pure Axe Bm = Useless bm pretty much. b:bye

Zanryu - Lothranis

Buying new damage/accuracy formula for BMs where it's all based off Strength. 60 DEX PURE STRENGTH BUILDS LET'S DO THIS!

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Simply put (I trust you need things simplified) 200 dex is the most practical PvP dex amount, not a "farmer's build". It just works that 200 is also the most practical pve amount, also.

VKnightV - Lost City wrote: »

did i heard you right about aiming for 300 dex even tho dex just give you acc crith and evesion.

Nope, you didn't hear right. Even after I dumbed it down for you.

Less cash cash shopping, more cash buying Malaysian-to-English dictionary, then come back to forums.

Fail troll was fail.

tweakz

_JlN_ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

It's not the build that is being questioned, it's the multiplier.
Even with a pure strength build for axes, a bms damage multiplier which requires 150 points in strength is not equal to what an arcane class recieves for 100 points in magic.

Channel/ cast difference.