Is 100 magic per damage multiplier still fair?
Comments
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You mean pretty much 95% of the bosses in the entire game? Yeah, wow, that's a really limited set of parameters. :P And permasparking is pretty much a hallmark of aps in general. Most TT farmers these days have at least a +10 weapon and the ability to permaspark, so don't talk like this is a significant limiting factor.WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »BP is broken only in fairly limited set of parameters, which include triple sparked, highly refined weapon, massively stacked aps and stationary target.
If you're going to argue the point that casters are broken, at least stay on-message with it. I thought we were talking about magic damage multipliers, not purify proc. There's already a thread about that, if you haven't noticed. -_-WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »Obviously R999 is broken but it should be equal between classes. R999 shouldnt create imbalance between equally geared players as it is doing right now.
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I find it amusing you argue how sin is stronger than psy if those two would encounter. Really the only way non R9 sin could kill well geared psy was locking it down with stun/freeze and spark IGing as if you didnt use immunity, you would simply silence yourself and miss your chance in killing psy. Now you try that and purify allows psy to just run out of it. Only way sin stands a chance now is if sin spams skills with zerk wep in which case aps is absolutely irrelevant.
She was implying that for every perceived advantage that casters have (with the possible exception of purify proc), melee characters have at least one. Is that so hard to understand, or are you just projecting with that offhand insult?WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »So you are saying ranged classes should have the same survival abilities as melee classes? Did somebody drop you when you were a baby?
Ask yourself: how much more expensive were TT mat prices back in the day? Then ask yourself how many runs an aps farmer can do in the time it took an oldscshool veno to do a single one. Should be pretty simple math.WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »Simply cause you are a trash of a veno doesnt mean everybody else is. Lots of deaths my ***, didnt see him or his herc die once in old 3-1. And while highest TTs could of taken hours, cant bother to argue the point, they also had a lot higher mat prices. And in fact, I did get pretty much all his TT mats when he quit, there were all kinds of them(including emperor, steelation and arma drops). Not only were mats worth more, gold was worth far less. Yet those are convenient facts to forget when you argue how APS make coin venos dont dream of - El Oh El.
Oh wait, I forgot, you can only write up a wall-o-math if it proves your point. If it's Kisz's point, you suddenly "can't bother" doing math. Hmm.
While I would agree that the rise of aps was not the cause of gold inflation, it was certainly a correlation. Gold rose and TT mat prices dropped almost in concert with each other, and packs were the cause of both. I'm not saying that venos were entitled to high TT mat prices more than anyone else... but I am saying that if venos were to lose that entitlement, it should've come more organically, through game balancing updates rather than being a side effect of the game-breaking mess that was packs.WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »APS and gold market my ***. It was first raised with introduction of one million coin boxes to bit under 200k. Then it was packs which raised the prices from there. It got us to 500k+ gold if I am not completely wrong. It also had little to do with APS - packs had fairly high npc value and end game gear which was worth, even w/o aps, worth quite a bit. After that I think it raised with pack sales and 1m was broken with 72g R8 sale.
Bigger cause for inflation is veno grinding DQ than sin soloing TT. Well, after mirage abuse was fixed. This is because sin doesnt generate much coin, only mats and in fact repairs take fair amount of coin out of economy. While grinding does the opposite, little repair costs and DQ + coin drops bring new coin into economy. TT mats are worth X amount of coin but only from players, not from NPCs.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]
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The intended discussion on this thread has gone so way off topic. The question was...
"Is 100 magic per damage multiplier still fair?"
For non caster class it's:
attack multiplier = 1 + ( Dex or str/ 150 ) + weapon mastery + physical attack buffs
For Casters it's:
attack multiplier = 1 + ( Mag / 100 ) + mastery + magical attack buffs
R999 3 piece bonus set gives 100 dex/str/mag to their class, so it's not uncommon for a class now to have 500 points at least for their attribute points to be used in the attack multiplier.
Non casters: 500/150 = 3.33
Casters: 500/100 = 5
So you are looking at a 1.67 difference in the multiplier, or in other words 167% weapon attack per hit. For a comparison spark eruption adds 150% weapon attack. I guess which ever dev came up with the idea to give 100 stat points in the set bonus didn't know about the different attack multiplier for caster and no casters.
A caster with r999, with 500+ magic points giving it much more damage per hit than melee, attacks that are range, and has 100% accuracy. This can make any bm players become envious.0 -
It'd be easier to stay on-topic if the topic wasn't essentially "QQ something that benefits other people is broken." If you're going to whine about other people being broken, you'd better be ready to give up what makes you broken in exchange.
Honestly? I don't believe that the magic multiplier is broken. I do believe that purify proc is broken, but so is everything else in R9S3, and that's not the topic of this thread anyway.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]
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Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »It'd be easier to stay on-topic if the topic wasn't essentially "QQ something that benefits other people is broken." If you're going to whine about other people being broken, you'd better be ready to give up what makes you broken in exchange.
I have 5 characters thats level 100 or above... 3 of them are magic and 2 of them are dex. Total playing time vastly favor magic class, and no single dex class gets more individual playing time then my top magic class. I know magic multipler is vastly more efficient then dex multiplers.Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »Honestly? I don't believe that the magic multiplier is broken. I do believe that purify proc is broken, but so is everything else in R9S3, and that's not the topic of this thread anyway.
So... you are commenting on magic multiplers, purify weapon, and what not. Do you have any first hand experience with any of those mentioned above.1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.
Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf0 -
Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
I have 5 characters thats level 100 or above... 3 of them are magic and 2 of them are dex. Total playing time vastly favor magic class,
tell me how many caster classes where having the same fun when the aps craze come out.
good or bad its time for other classes to have fun in nwpve and pvp to
and i just love hearing apser qq so much b:laugh0 -
For what purpose? Do your casters solo TT faster than your dex characters? If so... as I find myself often saying with you... vid or it didn't happen.Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »I have 5 characters thats level 100 or above... 3 of them are magic and 2 of them are dex. Total playing time vastly favor magic class, and no single dex class gets more individual playing time then my top magic class. I know magic multipler is vastly more efficient then dex multiplers.
Oh look, it's this argument again. Let's see... do I have R9S3 or R8S2 wep with purify proc... hmm, nope. Still don't have it. Still don't want it. o.oKiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »So... you are commenting on magic multiplers, purify weapon, and what not. Do you have any first hand experience with any of those mentioned above.
What do you know, same as last time someone asked me that. Good thing discussions about being broken aren't inherently limited to being discussed by those who are broken. But hey, I'm sure there's a good chance that the OP doesn't have a R9S3 caster either, so good job, you probably just invalidated the entire thread by your own standards. :P
That being said... why are you posting in here, again? o.O[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]
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VKnightV - Lost City wrote: »Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
I have 5 characters thats level 100 or above... 3 of them are magic and 2 of them are dex. Total playing time vastly favor magic class,
tell me how many caster classes where having the same fun when the aps craze come out.
good or bad its time for other classes to have fun in nwpve and pvp to
and i just love hearing apser qq so much b:laugh
4/5 aps was always for pve only and still rocks in pve. Btw it will become an expensive fun for you to gear up 3 magic classes to R9 3rd cast and max. refines/shards/skills. Because all other casters still QQ, they are useless 1-shootable targets in nw and tw.0 -
Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »
Miugre do you ever think these player will ever admit aps was broken and that is why they brought it or farmed it.
asking sincerly b:pleased0 -
Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »You mean pretty much 95% of the bosses in the entire game? Yeah, wow, that's a really limited set of parameters. :P And permasparking is pretty much a hallmark of aps in general. Most TT farmers these days have at least a +10 weapon and the ability to permaspark, so don't talk like this is a significant limiting factor.
And bosses are such a massive part of game? The point is, with how BP works, it`s not OP for PvP. Only class which really manages to abuse it for AoEing is seekers. But if we were to give ranged classes BP, it would be flatout broken for every aspect of the game.
[Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »If you're going to argue the point that casters are broken, at least stay on-message with it. I thought we were talking about magic damage multipliers, not purify proc. There's already a thread about that, if you haven't noticed. -_-
If APS is brought up as relevant factor, it also makes purify relevant factor as in end game PvP there really isnt APS, which is because of purify proc. I didnt find APS relevant regarding stat point multiplier but somebody was vigorous in bringing it up.Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »She was implying that for every perceived advantage that casters have (with the possible exception of purify proc), melee characters have at least one. Is that so hard to understand, or are you just projecting with that offhand insult?
The point was idiotic and I felt it didnt require any response. But if it didnt open up to you, lets break it down. Comparing melee class defenses to those of ranged is stupid on every level as if ranged class has same defenses as melee class, why would you ever roll a melee class? Unlike ranged class, melee class gets hit pretty much in every single fight. Suppose sin (LA) was exception but they are mostly countered with the new gear out there and they didnt have high defenses in the first place.
Funny enough is wizards can land some pretty sick builds with R999 by which I mean closer to 20k hp and over 80% p.dmg reduction, w/o giving up defense levels. Fully buffed is fully buffed but those sort of builds are absurd nonethless. Comparison to barb? Sage barbs in tiger form have bout twice the hp but have their m.dmg reduction to ~70%. So ultimately both classes are as beefy against each other as barbs take twice the damage.Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »Ask yourself: how much more expensive were TT mat prices back in the day? Then ask yourself how many runs an aps farmer can do in the time it took an oldscshool veno to do a single one. Should be pretty simple math.
Oh wait, I forgot, you can only write up a wall-o-math if it proves your point. If it's Kisz's point, you suddenly "can't bother" doing math. Hmm.
My in game wifey at the time was buying her TT99 mats pre rank sale, I remember they were 2.5m a pop as I tried to find cheaper ones and she got upset for "not telling where they are". Nowdays those mats are maybe 100k a pop. 25x difference, though it was a poor example.
Skaidread orbs or whatever was needed for TT99 neck? Those were 1-1.5m for a long time, nowdays ~100-200k So 5-15x difference. Let`s say 10x difference. Your pew pew aps sin goes and soloes TT in 20 mins. Herc veno would of had 10x 20min = 200min = 3h20min to do the same for same coin/time ratio. Lets not forget you could also get gold for lot cheaper.Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »While I would agree that the rise of aps was not the cause of gold inflation, it was certainly a correlation. Gold rose and TT mat prices dropped almost in concert with each other, and packs were the cause of both. I'm not saying that venos were entitled to high TT mat prices more than anyone else... but I am saying that if venos were to lose that entitlement, it should've come more organically, through game balancing updates rather than being a side effect of the game-breaking mess that was packs.
But APS really had nothing to do with the cause of gold prices rising massively, it would of happened all the same with the packs had there not been any -int stats on gear.Trolling Sid since So Hot
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VKnightV - Lost City wrote: »
4/5 aps was always for pve only and it was broken to the max and still rocks in pve. yes cos its broken in pve Btw it will become an expensive fun for you to gear up 3 magic classes to R9 3rd cast and max. refines/shards/skills. Because all other casters still QQ, they are useless 1-shootable targets in nw and tw.
fixed it for you b:shutup0 -
Not touching the rest with a 10 foot pole for now...WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »Only class which really manages to abuse it for AoEing is seekers. But if we were to give ranged classes BP, it would be flatout broken for every aspect of the game.
Seekers already get ranged BP on their skills. And unless BP itself were changed it wouldn't actually be broken on ranged classes as they'd still have to run up close and punch things to get any form of BP returns. That or have all their attacks be considered melee and wind up making bramble a thing that easily hard counters the returns BP gives.(Insert fancy image here)
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seriously...melee characters are crying about unfairness? us casters arent the ones going around dealing 2m zerk cricts in PVE0
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how many ppl farmed insane amount of nv runs
and you call it non factor
i seen tons of ppl saying how they farmed there r9 gear
and it dosent matter right
how about when sin come out and the gear was so weak most ppl could die in sec from a sparked sin from stealth.
aps have been a big part of the inbalance and you still defend it bah i hope caster keep getting more and more damage with more buff and put every melee on there knees a peg ur epen to fuc king HUGE.0 -
Not touching the rest with a 10 foot pole for now...
Seekers already get ranged BP on their skills. And unless BP itself were changed it wouldn't actually be broken on ranged classes as they'd still have to run up close and punch things to get any form of BP returns. That or have all their attacks be considered melee and wind up making bramble a thing that easily hard counters the returns BP gives.
Well I said earlier every class should get BP for melee damage. I was refering with giving BP to ranged classes as giving them BP that works with ranged attacks. I also thought BP didnt work for seekers on their ranged metal attacks?Trolling Sid since So Hot0 -
WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »If APS is brought up as relevant factor, it also makes purify relevant factor as in end game PvP there really isnt APS, which is because of purify proc. I didnt find APS relevant regarding stat point multiplier but somebody was vigorous in bringing it up.
Not arguing that last bit. But TT was brought up, for better or worse, and so the discussion shifted. I don't often speak from a PVP perspective, and so I participated only in this sub-discussion of a PVE-centric topic.WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »And bosses are such a massive part of game? The point is, with how BP works, it`s not OP for PvP. Only class which really manages to abuse it for AoEing is seekers. But if we were to give ranged classes BP, it would be flatout broken for every aspect of the game.
As far as PVP goes, I can only defer to Kiszmet's point, which was alluded to even in the OP... that being, that the point breakdown is not so much the problem as the gear which permits it to be broken. If we didn't have R9S3 or other broken gears, you wouldn't see problems on nearly the scale we have today. The problem with the OP is that he suggests changing the multipliers to match the broken gear, which is fundamentally stupid because you need to fix what's broken, not break what isn't broken to match it.
What's your point here? Casters have natural advantges and melees have natural advantages. That's basic RPG design. Nobody's disputing that. But so much is broken in this game that people are now just yelling at each other saying "QQ your advantage is more broken than my advantage!" ...as this thread and the purify proc thread both exemplify.WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »The point was idiotic and I felt it didnt require any response. But if it didnt open up to you, lets break it down. Comparing melee class defenses to those of ranged is stupid on every level as if ranged class has same defenses as melee class, why would you ever roll a melee class? Unlike ranged class, melee class gets hit pretty much in every single fight. Suppose sin (LA) was exception but they are mostly countered with the new gear out there and they didnt have high defenses in the first place.
I would think so, as you seem to think there are any tt99 gold mats in existence which go for 100k. o.OWnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »My in game wifey at the time was buying her TT99 mats pre rank sale, I remember they were 2.5m a pop as I tried to find cheaper ones and she got upset for "not telling where they are". Nowdays those mats are maybe 100k a pop. 25x difference, though it was a poor example.
Your whole math here relies on that one example which assumes that TT mat prices are a tenth of what they used to be. I think you and I both know that TT mat prices diverge wildly from each other based on all sorts of different factors. Just for two examples... as I believe Kisz mentioned, most venos can't solo Wurlord... aps people generally can. Venos can't do half of 3-x bosses... aps people generally can. What were Ghost Lord's Ribbons worth in 2009? Currently on HT they're about 1-1.5mil each. Are you going to tell me that they were worth 10-15mil?WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »Skaidread orbs or whatever was needed for TT99 neck? Those were 1-1.5m for a long time, nowdays ~100-200k So 5-15x difference. Let`s say 10x difference. Your pew pew aps sin goes and soloes TT in 20 mins. Herc veno would of had 10x 20min = 200min = 3h20min to do the same for same coin/time ratio. Lets not forget you could also get gold for lot cheaper.
And that doesn't even count gold mats, which had a stable price ceiling as long as the Mysterious Merchant has been around.
What I know from experience is that people on these forums will rationalize literally anything, as long as it benefits them in some way. Doesn't mean I don't like to poke the Rationalization Bubble from time to time. :P You could call me a white-hat troll.VKnightV - Lost City wrote:Miugre do you ever think these player will ever admit aps was broken and that is why they brought it or farmed it.
asking sincerly[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]
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That's because "you casters" are doing 4m non-zerk crits in PvE prior to R9's recasts.I_sage_i - Harshlands wrote: »seriously...melee characters are crying about unfairness? us casters arent the ones going around dealing 2m zerk cricts in PVEWnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »Well I said earlier every class should get BP for melee damage. I was refering with giving BP to ranged classes as giving them BP that works with ranged attacks. I also thought BP didnt work for seekers on their ranged metal attacks?
Fair enough on that case.
As for the seeker thing, when their skills got changed BP started to come from them. Of course, they now also receive bramble damage from those same skills too. So there's that going against them now.(Insert fancy image here)0 -
Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »
What I know from experience is that people on these forums will rationalize literally anything, as long as it benefits them in some way. Doesn't mean I don't like to poke the Rationalization Bubble from time to time. :P You could call me a white-hat troll.
you dont know how long i been waiting for these player to feel the same unjust i feelt for so long to feel the same thing i did then.
you can call me a troll to as i so enjoy hearing there qq
cant help it it make me feel so good about myself b:pleased0 -
WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »If you still keep insisting on flaws when you cant point any, I have to assume you cant find anything wrong with it and are only calling it flawed to not seem like an idiot.
I have pointed out numerous flaws, and I don't need equations to do it, nor will I waste space by creating them only for you to ignore them as well. It's obvious no matter what is said or what points are brought up you will continue being the broken record that you are and remain in your dillusion of imbalance. Calling me names, even backhandedly, does not change the fact that by ignoring the other factors involved with damage, stat bonuses, and skills/abilities your argument remains invalid.WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »Obviously R999 is broken but it should be equal between classes. R999 shouldnt create imbalance between equally geared players as it is doing right now.
So broken gear should be equal among equally geared classes? How I wish you APSers felt that way when APS gear dominated the servers. But I guess my lev 13 Buddha's Leaf just isn't equal gear when compared to your lev 13 Deicides. Even among APSers there were significant differences. Archers and barbs couldn't hope to do the damage of a sin or BM as they didn't have weapon mastery skills for fists and archers couldn't invest the STR to make the damage "pro". Both were laughed at in squads of BMs and sins and were told repeatedly to go "roll a sin." But now that broken gear isn't working out to your benefit suddenly your preaching equality for those wearing it.WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »Attack speed has nothing to do with damage multiplier from stat points. I could wear axes on sin and Id still have the same unfair stat point damage multiplier as I would if I used daggers. Compared to casters, obviously. I could wear a pataka for all it matters and I still wouldnt get the same stat point multiplier.
Yes, because we all know sins are going to run around with pataka's, a weapon that only has a 1.00 atc/sec attack speed and who's base phys damage is barely comparable to daggers, a weapon that strikes 2x as fast. Please. Again you leave out the 90% weapon bonus gained from using daggers. Also, you again try to throw out attack speed in correlation with your multiplier. I've already explained the problems with this mess of a statement, I won't do it again.WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »APS is accounted in skill damage, the raw damage and multipliers on skills for casters. As yes, physical classes do indeed hit faster than casters. It doesnt account for the current trend where skill spamming has become the norm for PvP as non casters have clearly lower skill damage, though they have similar channel/cast times to weaker magic attacks from casters.
I find it amusing you argue how sin is stronger than psy if those two would encounter. Really the only way non R9 sin could kill well geared psy was locking it down with stun/freeze and spark IGing as if you didnt use immunity, you would simply silence yourself and miss your chance in killing psy. Now you try that and purify allows psy to just run out of it. Only way sin stands a chance now is if sin spams skills with zerk wep in which case aps is absolutely irrelevant.
And you know, clerics got squad buff which does exactly that, increases magic attack and by more than barbs titans too.
First Paragraph: So your first sentence is saying that current magic modifiers actually balance for APS? And your asking for a nerf? As for channeling time of skill? Yes its wonderful my weakest magic attacks can spam at MAYBE the rate of your strongest physical skills if I have - Chan gear and you DON"T have APS gear. I guess I need my mage damage nerfed as a result... -_-
Second Paragraph: I find it amusing you completely ignore my argument. I didn't say anything about how a sin was stronger, only that they had skills that increased their damage drastically and allowed them to get close to the psy w/o being attacked, but lets consider for a moment that we are actually discussing all magic classes as we should. Would it be as hard to take down say a cleric? or a mystic? Even if they had R9? I doubt it. Bringing up the purify proc is also childish. I wholeheartedly agree with your statement that it's broken, but it has nothing to do with your argument against damage multipliers for casters.
Third Paragraph: I was wrong about the buff, at least I'm willing to admit that. Just as I was willing to admit I could be wrong about the hercs before someone came along and pointed out they did indeed come out in 2008. I forgot about the clerics skill because it was late and I rarely benefit from it on my own toon. I am not going to sit here and argue the point on buffs. There are reasons the cleric buff grants a higher percentage then the barbs, but buffs is not the point of this thread.
Fourth... Paragraph?: So... where is your response to the VIT modifier on barbs? Why shouldn't that be changed if the MAG modifier should be changed on casters? They are both stat modifiers, the topic of this thread. You believe the barb modifier to be fair but not the mag one? What if I were to say that BM's also had a higher HP to VIT modifier than casters and receive 50% more HP to Vit point as opposed to caster classes? I will be fair and say that venos get 20% more than other caster's but that's nothing compared to the 70% barbs rake in. What about this stat? I mean if you ague modifiers should be equal shouldn't all classes get the same HP to VIT as they should Damage to STR/MAG/DEX? Perhaps you should also mention in your "maths" that there is a Dex modifier as well. Acc and Evasion per point for dex is practically non existent for casters, yet the bonuses are huge for BMs, Seekers, and Sins. Yes, I know spells don't miss. But I would love to benefit from a higher evasion score.WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »Simply cause you are a trash of a veno doesnt mean everybody else is. Lots of deaths my ***, didnt see him or his herc die once in old 3-1. And while highest TTs could of taken hours, cant bother to argue the point, they also had a lot higher mat prices. And in fact, I did get pretty much all his TT mats when he quit, there were all kinds of them(including emperor, steelation and arma drops). Not only were mats worth more, gold was worth far less. Yet those are convenient facts to forget when you argue how APS make coin venos dont dream of - El Oh El.
APS and gold market my ***. It was first raised with introduction of one million coin boxes to bit under 200k. Then it was packs which raised the prices from there. It got us to 500k+ gold if I am not completely wrong. It also had little to do with APS - packs had fairly high npc value and end game gear which was worth, even w/o aps, worth quite a bit. After that I think it raised with pack sales and 1m was broken with 72g R8 sale.
Bigger cause for inflation is veno grinding DQ than sin soloing TT. Well, after mirage abuse was fixed. This is because sin doesnt generate much coin, only mats and in fact repairs take fair amount of coin out of economy. While grinding does the opposite, little repair costs and DQ + coin drops bring new coin into economy. TT mats are worth X amount of coin but only from players, not from NPCs.
As a "trash of a 'HA' veno" you know, the kind you faceroll kill yourself on in pvp and who saves the party from being wiped by the actions of stupid bms, I CHOSE not to get a herc or a nix and given how the dynamics of pets has drastically changed I still feel it was a good decision. Even so, I knew a lot of soloing venos and we talked to eachother a great deal, even though I didn't agree with their methods, since they paid $200 to do it I wasn't going to begrudge them of it. That being said the best of them couldn't solo 3-2, though an average geared 4 man APS party easily could. As for the mats you got? Venos were taken on group runs of 3-2 and 3-3 all the time especially for BH's. Bramble and amp were in huge demand back then, I'm sure that's where a lot of the 3-2 and 3-3 mats came from.
As for not wanting to argue the point of time its not hard to see why. A small 2-3 man APS squad could do 5 to 6 runs to a venos 1, *edit* but the real issue is that they could do 2-3 runs to a to standard squads 1, while a standard squad could do 2-3 runs to a venos 1. This is being conservative by the way as high refined APS squads could do it even faster then what I quoted. *edit* AND could do higher level TTs and get more valuable mats from it in similar time. Regardless of the price of mats it doesn't take a math major to figure out the problem here.
Yes, APS caused inflation. I and others have already explained it was not as a direct result of APS itself but as a correlation between demand for APS equaling high demand for packs. Yes there was a token in there worth 5 mil but since the chance of getting it was low many would rather sell the packs to those desperate to get APS gear. I also brought up hypers and how the desire to be lev 100 APS caused their demand to raise gold even more. This was all part PWE's plan when implementing these things. They counted on player greed and the ease of APS to appease it, which raised gold prices, destroyed the in game coin economy, leveled a whole bunch of APS wanabees to 100 and created a demand for casters to get equipment and abilities to compete with APS. Still think APS isn't responsible for all that?
PWE is not your friend. They did not give you that gear because they wanted you to be pro. They are doing the same thing with rank 9 now and here you are arguing from the other side of the fence. To bring this argument back on topic, you are arguing about gear, not stats. From your statements, or the lack thereof, you don't really care about stats. You care about the fact that R9RRR has created an imbalance that your APSer has trouble competing with. From the very beginning I said this was the core of the issue. You are suffering from the very same thing that casters suffered from when APS first became recognized, and now that the shoe is on the other foot, you want to QQ about it.0 -
Heck, you don't even use logic to point things out. Just rage... Just rage.Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »I have pointed out numerous flaws, and I don't need equations to do it,
Thank you for 'not wasting space' with your previous 20 off topic wall-of-texts that had zero thought placed into them.Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »nor will I waste space by creating them only for you to ignore them as well.Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory0 -
blahblahblah disclaimer about me only pointing out something and not going to one thing or the other, blahblahblahKiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »Archers and barbs couldn't hope to do the damage of a sin or BM as they didn't have weapon mastery skills for fists and archers couldn't invest the STR to make the damage "pro". Both were laughed at in squads of BMs and sins and were told repeatedly to go "roll a sin." But now that broken gear isn't working out to your benefit suddenly your preaching equality for those wearing it.
While them getting laughed at is true, when solo a Barb would actually out-damage a BM outside of HF spam due to the boost strength of the titans gave them. And an archer had the potential to either out-damage BMs (R9 + High-end weapon before everyone had massive attack levels on their claws from third cast nirvana) or come very close to their damage output (blazing arrow + their natural crit rate).
Thanks to the common misconceptions, though, not to mention a general lack of knowledge on the effects of masteries (Like how some people still seem to think that a sage barb in true form will have their damage cut in half), though, it did result in that bit of exclusion. Though in a squad with both a BM and Barb (or when buffed by a barb), yes the BM would have better damage.
By the way, I wouldn't use weapon grade as the comparison for equality there. Lunar G13 isn't the same as Morai G13/Nirvana G13/OHT G13, after all. Lunar gold weapon to lunar gold weapon is a good point, mind you, but because they're the same branch and not so much the weapon's grade.(Insert fancy image here)0 -
blahblahblah disclaimer about me only pointing out something and not going to one thing or the other, blahblahblah
While them getting laughed at is true, when solo a Barb would actually out-damage a BM outside of HF spam due to the boost strength of the titans gave them. And an archer had the potential to either out-damage BMs (R9 + High-end weapon before everyone had massive attack levels on their claws from third cast nirvana) or come very close to their damage output (blazing arrow + their natural crit rate).
Thanks to the common misconceptions, though, not to mention a general lack of knowledge on the effects of masteries (Like how some people still seem to think that a sage barb in true form will have their damage cut in half), though, it did result in that bit of exclusion. Though in a squad with both a BM and Barb (or when buffed by a barb), yes the BM would have better damage.
By the way, I wouldn't use weapon grade as the comparison for equality there. Lunar G13 isn't the same as Morai G13/Nirvana G13/OHT G13, after all. Lunar gold weapon to lunar gold weapon is a good point, mind you, but because they're the same branch and not so much the weapon's grade.
I was bringing up the archers and barbs only in terms of APS. I whole heartedly agree that archers could out damage BMs using archer skills, and barbs have their own tricks to match the damage of BMs. That didn't stop many from using APS fists in TT and BH runs anyway.
As for weapons, Morai was not out during the earlier times of APS though the OHT was. I can't remember specifically when nirvana came out though.... You are absolutely correct these weapons do refine differently, but since we were arguing about equal gear giving equal balance I used the weapons that could be gotten from the packs, not because of their grade but, as you pointed out, because they stem from the same branch and were the weapons in high demand back then, just as R9s3 weapons are now
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Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »Heck, you don't even use logic to point things out. Just rage... Just rage.
Thank you for 'not wasting space' with your previous 20 off topic wall-of-texts that had zero thought placed into them.
ty for pointing out what aps did not do to our so nice ecominy
or how our caster felt when aps craze made them absolute in pve coin wise
wait nw is a coin instance so that means tha tcaster does get coin for there gear as aps did 2 whole years.
qq me a river
still waiting for a the same amount of coin for a non aps barb to do all aps did with its investment.
i alredy know you cant so why are you even qqing go kil la duck or something stupid troll0 -
Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »I was bringing up the archers and barbs only in terms of APS. I whole heartedly agree that archers could out damage BMs using archer skills, and barbs have their own tricks to match the damage of BMs. That didn't stop many from using APS fists in TT and BH runs anyway.
I was also referring to an APS setup when it comes to damage. The raw math was done a while but I'm not too keen on digging it up right now. b:chuckle(Insert fancy image here)0 -
I was also referring to an APS setup when it comes to damage. The raw math was done a while but I'm not too keen on digging it up right now. b:chuckle
there one thing i would love to be done in the name of balance talk we are having.
make a bm aps setup and the coin it would cost to buy it.
and use the same coin in building a pure str barb and see balanced they woudl be.
this is ofc for the name of balance0 -
Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »
As far as PVP goes, I can only defer to Kiszmet's point, which was alluded to even in the OP... that being, that the point breakdown is not so much the problem as the gear which permits it to be broken. If we didn't have R9S3 or other broken gears, you wouldn't see problems on nearly the scale we have today. The problem with the OP is that he suggests changing the multipliers to match the broken gear, which is fundamentally stupid because you need to fix what's broken, not break what isn't broken to match it.
Actually the multiplier has always been broken, new gear only makes it more visible. I would change mag multiplier to 100%/150 mag but I would also boost damage on individual skills for casters. Which is how it should of always been imo.Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »What's your point here? Casters have natural advantges and melees have natural advantages. That's basic RPG design. Nobody's disputing that. But so much is broken in this game that people are now just yelling at each other saying "QQ your advantage is more broken than my advantage!" ...as this thread and the purify proc thread both exemplify.
The point is, specifically wizards dont have natural weaknesses with current end game gear like melee classes do. Unless we take position of APS for melee classes as PvE means to balance PvP imbalance. If Wizard hits harder, is ranged and has comparable defenses to melee classes, surpassing them in some aspect, what are the weaknesses? My point is, the basic RPG design no longer exists at all and thus there is no argument for casters dealing more damage.Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »I would think so, as you seem to think there are any tt99 gold mats in existence which go for 100k. o.O
Your whole math here relies on that one example which assumes that TT mat prices are a tenth of what they used to be. I think you and I both know that TT mat prices diverge wildly from each other based on all sorts of different factors. Just for two examples... as I believe Kisz mentioned, most venos can't solo Wurlord... aps people generally can. Venos can't do half of 3-x bosses... aps people generally can. What were Ghost Lord's Ribbons worth in 2009? Currently on HT they're about 1-1.5mil each. Are you going to tell me that they were worth 10-15mil?
1.5m ribbons? Where do I find the transfer server option? But in it`s essence I dont argue bout venos not being able to do half the current 3-X bosses. Doesnt change the fact a friend of mine did farm higher tier TTs, including hard bosses, with his herc before they redid 3-X TTs. And at that point, APS was already main form of farming on older servers I suspect.
For melee class to solo wurlord, to really solo and not have alt cleric tagging along as BB *****, You either spark every single skill shot, which requires chi skills on 5aps sins and uncanny timing. And being honest, wurlord still hits like a truck w/o skillshots. Ape in 2-3 with buffs, I can set up spark macro with alt cleric on BB, otherwise it gets lot more annoying. These things arent facerolled with average sins and even average sins have far superior starting price compared to veno & herc. Average sins made great money only because of nirvana, which is now dead. And even before that casters had better version of the instance.
Ribbons are completely special case though, there is absurd demand for them due NW and N3. Archosaur was at ~400k ribbons pre NW I believe, we jumped to 1.5m too and by xmas prices were back to ~700k. GBAs on other hand dont sell and as they are the other "expensive" mat of 3-1, discounting golds, its clear that when this unnatural demand of ribbons comes to an end, ribbons too will plummet back to where GBAs are currently(hard to sell for 400k).
I do remember times when GBAs were 5m a piece and 9X veno with a herc could solo GBA at that time. 2-3 Antennas were ~400k last I saw and as they started from ~1m, they with 40% retained value are likely the most preserved in value. But this is only how it`s on Archosaur, there isnt big coin/time ratio change from veno farming to current APS farming. If we account changes in gold price, venos made better gold/time in TT than current aps toons.
Only exception being 3-3 and possibly 3-2 due gold mats still selling. I peed honey on December 2x when arma dropped 2 Illusion Stones, the 15m chip cost ones. Due NW, springs too were at 1m a pop as absurd amounts of sins were getting N2 daggers. Even though golds still sell, the demand is growing smaller and springs are prolly back to 200k a pop by now.Trolling Sid since So Hot0 -
I was also referring to an APS setup when it comes to damage. The raw math was done a while but I'm not too keen on digging it up right now. b:chuckle
Oh, lol b:chuckle I misunderstood then. From the way the post was written I thought you were comparing APS to DD skills and buffs, my mistake. It just reminded me of all the e-peen contests I would see archers have with APS BMs over who could hold agro better. APS or high dex bows :P.0 -
Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »What were Ghost Lord's Ribbons worth in 2009? Currently on HT they're about 1-1.5mil each. Are you going to tell me that they were worth 10-15mil?
I have a bunch of ribbons sitting in bank. I also have a veno and can solo him... and a sin that can solo him too... and if I can figure out how to duo arch/sin I will have an arch that can solo him too. I am willing to sell as many ribbons to you as you need at 1 mil a piece... you can then resale them for 1.5 and pocket the difference.1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.
Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf0 -
Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »I have pointed out numerous flaws, and I don't need equations to do it, nor will I waste space by creating them only for you to ignore them as well. It's obvious no matter what is said or what points are brought up you will continue being the broken record that you are and remain in your dillusion of imbalance. Calling me names, even backhandedly, does not change the fact that by ignoring the other factors involved with damage, stat bonuses, and skills/abilities your argument remains invalid.
I havent ignored anything relevant, what you are doing is ignoring anything I say as it doesnt fit in your little world. I have also stated how a "poor no good DPS psy" out DPSd high tier sin in short time burst (20-30s) as an example and yet you QQ how sin is so broken casters cant ever hope to match. Yes, the psy out geared me but he could do that from 30m range while I have to be on targets face. For crying out loud, if melee DPS class didnt out DPS ranged DPS class, the heck would be the point of melee DPS class?
Skill damage? Casters have higher flat skill damages. Casters also have higher weapon damage multipliers in skills. But no matter, there still isnt real difference between channel/cast times between casters and non casters. Casters also stack -chan more than non casters for obvious reasons.
Only thing non casters beat casters in terms of attack is attack is having auto-attack, which is faster than skills and due stacking of -int gear higher chi gain.Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »So broken gear should be equal among equally geared classes? How I wish you APSers felt that way when APS gear dominated the servers. But I guess my lev 13 Buddha's Leaf just isn't equal gear when compared to your lev 13 Deicides. Even among APSers there were significant differences. Archers and barbs couldn't hope to do the damage of a sin or BM as they didn't have weapon mastery skills for fists and archers couldn't invest the STR to make the damage "pro". Both were laughed at in squads of BMs and sins and were told repeatedly to go "roll a sin." But now that broken gear isn't working out to your benefit suddenly your preaching equality for those wearing it.
I rolled barb in first place to pull cata, to tank so I had easier time to get in squads. I didnt like it how APS forced me to restat into claws on my barb. Cheap R8 sale though offered me an option to restat my barb back to axes only and create, which I felt, superior farming toon.
Comparing dagger damage to claw/fist damage is idiotic though. Daggers have lower base attack speed so it really should have higher weapon damage than claws/fists. But it really isnt big difference, difference comes in dex vs str for damage multiplier. Sins have higher damage multiplier and massively higher crit rate. Then again sins are the squishiest of APS toons.
BMs are the basic aps class, 3rd in damage, 1st or 2nd in defenses Id say, have HF and 1 squad buff.
Barbs actually deal fairly similar damage to BMs as barbs do in fact have mastery which works with claws. Poison fang is ~half what BMs claw mastery offers. As there is lot of more important factors than mastery for damage, damage difference between claw barb and BM was marginal. Barbs had 2 squad buffs instead of 1, quicker movement speed and some other advantages.
Archers also have similar elemental attack buff as barbs do but unlike barbs, archers could utilize R9 armors in 5aps build for demons. This results in possibility of gaining 10 attack & def levels from R9 set bonus, not to forget lot higher defenses than other LA aps class sins. Archers could also use bows for ranged damage far better than other APS classes, not to forget STA. Only big negative is the lack of BP.
All in all APS classes were fairly well balanced between each other, discounting archers missing BP. Sins only break of the pack at high refines on everything as they had to compensate for low defenses more than other APS classes.Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »Yes, because we all know sins are going to run around with pataka's, a weapon that only has a 1.00 atc/sec attack speed and who's base phys damage is barely comparable to daggers, a weapon that strikes 2x as fast. Please. Again you leave out the 90% weapon bonus gained from using daggers. Also, you again try to throw out attack speed in correlation with your multiplier. I've already explained the problems with this mess of a statement, I won't do it again.
Lets set one thing straight, I assume you know when you say Pataka has 1 aps, daggers have base of 1.24, not 2. Not that it matters, it was more of a sarcastic point how non casters cant acquire the stat point multiplier for magic, no matter what they do.
But I didnt account mastery as it wasnt relevant to the point, accounting masteries would of only made caster up further ahead. Lets do some math. In earlier post I proved how 25% earth mastery is more efficient than non caster mastery as long as non caster mastery isnt over 20% of the total damage multiplier. so 20% = 1/5
1/5 > X / ( 1 + 0.9 + X )
1/5 > X / ( 1.9 + X ) // x 1.9 + X
1.9X/5 < 1. // 1.9/5
X > 0.53
X/150 = 0.53 //150
X = 79,5
As long as dexterity is over 79,5 sage psy earth mastery gives higher boost into damage than sage sin`s dagger mastery. Damn, I wish I had that high dex!
But seriously, you keep calling my math incomplete and terrible, yet every time I alter my calculations to take something into account you feel I should of, it proves the opposite point of what you were arguing. I ask you, wouldnt these results suggest I may have better understanding of the formulas than you do?Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »First Paragraph: So your first sentence is saying that current magic modifiers actually balance for APS? And your asking for a nerf? As for channeling time of skill? Yes its wonderful my weakest magic attacks can spam at MAYBE the rate of your strongest physical skills if I have - Chan gear and you DON"T have APS gear. I guess I need my mage damage nerfed as a result... -_-
Oh god be merciful. Magic skills have higher "XXX% of weapon damage" multipliers than non caster classes, which does balance DPS difference between caster skills and auto-attacks. And quicker channel/cast times of melee classes, discounting sins who have comparable/even higher cast times with mages. Unlike non casters, casters stack -chan closing the channel time gap against non casters.Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »Second Paragraph: I find it amusing you completely ignore my argument. I didn't say anything about how a sin was stronger, only that they had skills that increased their damage drastically and allowed them to get close to the psy w/o being attacked, but lets consider for a moment that we are actually discussing all magic classes as we should. Would it be as hard to take down say a cleric? or a mystic? Even if they had R9? I doubt it. Bringing up the purify proc is also childish. I wholeheartedly agree with your statement that it's broken, but it has nothing to do with your argument against damage multipliers for casters.
So you argue stealth is problem? If sins didnt have stealth, equally geared casters would be 1shotting your average sins. Only thing really preventing them from doing it would be sins selfbuffs and attack charms/apos.
Its also fairly known fact that AA defenses are enough refined and sharded to compete with aps sins. If you run around with +3 armors, of course +10-12 weapons are going to tear you up. Same goes other way around with disadvantage for sins as aps sins either use different set of orns for PvP and PvE or have worst M.res of all classes.Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »Third Paragraph: I was wrong about the buff, at least I'm willing to admit that. Just as I was willing to admit I could be wrong about the hercs before someone came along and pointed out they did indeed come out in 2008. I forgot about the clerics skill because it was late and I rarely benefit from it on my own toon. I am not going to sit here and argue the point on buffs. There are reasons the cleric buff grants a higher percentage then the barbs, but buffs is not the point of this thread.
And yet you bring up buffs along lines "OMG non casters damage buffs!!11!". I found it amusing casters had the advantage on buffs as cleric buffs are better. Whole another question is selfbuffs, like Blazing arrow and Poison Fang, which I would rather count as 2nd masteries as like masteries, they only boost yourself. Difference to masteries would be how those have duration and can be purged. Oh yeah, not to forget, they bypass expell allowing you to CC trough it. Though the elemental damage they deal is only amusing against casters.Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »Fourth... Paragraph?: So... where is your response to the VIT modifier on barbs? Why shouldn't that be changed if the MAG modifier should be changed on casters? They are both stat modifiers, the topic of this thread. You believe the barb modifier to be fair but not the mag one? What if I were to say that BM's also had a higher HP to VIT modifier than casters and receive 50% more HP to Vit point as opposed to caster classes? I will be fair and say that venos get 20% more than other caster's but that's nothing compared to the 70% barbs rake in. What about this stat? I mean if you ague modifiers should be equal shouldn't all classes get the same HP to VIT as they should Damage to STR/MAG/DEX? Perhaps you should also mention in your "maths" that there is a Dex modifier as well. Acc and Evasion per point for dex is practically non existent for casters, yet the bonuses are huge for BMs, Seekers, and Sins. Yes, I know spells don't miss. But I would love to benefit from a higher evasion score.
Wasnt this already answered somewhere? Wizzies, as the vit ratios are, can already match barbs defenses on OP end game fully buffed. If we go change those values, it`ll be shifting balance towards situation where wizards have higher effective health than barbs. Yeah, that feels totally balanced.Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »As a "trash of a 'HA' veno" you know, the kind you faceroll kill yourself on in pvp and who saves the party from being wiped by the actions of stupid bms, I CHOSE not to get a herc or a nix and given how the dynamics of pets has drastically changed I still feel it was a good decision. Even so, I knew a lot of soloing venos and we talked to eachother a great deal, even though I didn't agree with their methods, since they paid $200 to do it I wasn't going to begrudge them of it. That being said the best of them couldn't solo 3-2, though an average geared 4 man APS party easily could. As for the mats you got? Venos were taken on group runs of 3-2 and 3-3 all the time especially for BH's. Bramble and amp were in huge demand back then, I'm sure that's where a lot of the 3-2 and 3-3 mats came from.
Its great you can tell my PvP ability, can I loan that sphere too? I also admire how you call BMs stupid. Should I call all venos stupid just because I ran into you?
So you chose not to get CS pets and argue like your individual decision prevents whole herc venoes doing the absolutely same as you are now hating APS toons for. But as Archosaur was so young people were only hitting 100 and still he was farming TTs. The drops he had included all the harder bosses and BH100 was plain impossible as there really werent 100+ toons to participate in those. Though as I think of it, might of been with another herc veno that he soloed the higher ones. Granted, he did have bless herc, which were fairly common among high venos on Archosaur.
"Average 4man aps squad" went with a cleric. You can kid yourself all you want, I really dont care. Herc is beefier than your average aps toon, herc has a healer. Only when APS toon is beefy enough and has high enough DPS to regain lost hp trough pots/charm/BP can they start going w/o cleric. And those are toons are bit higher refined than your average players.Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »As for not wanting to argue the point of time its not hard to see why. A small 2-3 man APS squad could do 5 to 6 runs to a venos 1, *edit* but the real issue is that they could do 2-3 runs to a to standard squads 1, while a standard squad could do 2-3 runs to a venos 1. This is being conservative by the way as high refined APS squads could do it even faster then what I quoted. *edit* AND could do higher level TTs and get more valuable mats from it in similar time. Regardless of the price of mats it doesn't take a math major to figure out the problem here.
It seems like it takes more than whatever you are satisfied in understanding of maths.
You clearly have no idea just how different APS toons can be or how marginal portion of all APS toons could break TT completely. We arent really talking bout 5 aps with G13 +10 and 5k hp. Yes, that sort of sin can solo lower TT instances, to lesser extent a veno could. Faster than veno, sure, but less bosses. The sins you are QQing bout are of the sort of R9[/N2 with -int & zerk]+12 daggers, +10 armors/orns and full endgame sharding. Im not saying less isnt enough but truly, major part of sins that would fit your criteria of APS toon are somewhere around there.Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »Yes, APS caused inflation. I and others have already explained it was not as a direct result of APS itself but as a correlation between demand for APS equaling high demand for packs. Yes there was a token in there worth 5 mil but since the chance of getting it was low many would rather sell the packs to those desperate to get APS gear. I also brought up hypers and how the desire to be lev 100 APS caused their demand to raise gold even more. This was all part PWE's plan when implementing these things. They counted on player greed and the ease of APS to appease it, which raised gold prices, destroyed the in game coin economy, leveled a whole bunch of APS wanabees to 100 and created a demand for casters to get equipment and abilities to compete with APS. Still think APS isn't responsible for all that?
Your explanation is a bad joke. You have no clue how the economy works or what the heck even happened. There is no correlation with APS and gold prices. There is correlation between packs and gold but packs really werent bought cause they had -int gear in them. The average npc value of packs forced gold prices to raise. End game gear increased it bit further. But it would of been end game gear if it didnt have any -int at all. Packs allowed easier access to -int gear and the "APS craze" is more of a result of packs than reason for it. You seem to see APS everywhere, better check under the bed for boogieman too.Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »PWE is not your friend. They did not give you that gear because they wanted you to be pro. They are doing the same thing with rank 9 now and here you are arguing from the other side of the fence. To bring this argument back on topic, you are arguing about gear, not stats. From your statements, or the lack thereof, you don't really care about stats. You care about the fact that R9RRR has created an imbalance that your APSer has trouble competing with. From the very beginning I said this was the core of the issue. You are suffering from the very same thing that casters suffered from when APS first became recognized, and now that the shoe is on the other foot, you want to QQ about it.
This has never been about APS, you are the only one who thinks it has some impact on this topic, which I found amusing. The gear is essential point in this as it has so god damn many stat points in it nowdays. And as stat points increase, so does relative difference between casters DPH and non casters DPH. I really cant put it any simpler than that.Trolling Sid since So Hot0 -
why we even talking to this noob barb he love to compare love geared player with high end game player and make them as if balanced.
no what we shoudl talk about is same lv of gear in cost and see how it all balance out.
one example is a 5 aps mediocre and a non aps melee with same cost in gear and a caster with same gear value of said aps in pve and see who get the best of all.
then put a hard core aps toon and a caster and a non aps toon with same cost wise again as in balancing.
always with same cost in mind
there no point in debeting a low geared aps with a massiblenon apss player cos there is no balance in it at all.
only thing that count is value of cost nothing else.
and pve does count when nv was alive for 2 years and ppl made a haleluya amount of coin.0 -
WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »I havent ignored anything relevant, what you are doing is ignoring anything I say as it doesnt fit in your little world.
No that's what you keep doing. Do we really need to go over this again? Instead of countering my main points about factoring all the variables of the damage/build equation, which you still don't do I might add, you continue to intentionally misentrepit my points while attacking me directly to take the focus off the main argument. You even trolled my apology about the buffs b:scorn, real mature. As for APS, your statement that I was the one who focused on it is an outright lie. The BM brought it up as a balanced system of damage as opposed to current casters and you championed it. All I tried to do was point out the inconsistencies of your argument of supporting APS gear then but arguing against the modifiers of R9 gear now. I really don't give a **** about APS anymore, but I wasn't going to let you lie your way out of your own argument. As I've said before you are a broken record without an off switch and there is no point in arguing with you any further.
I will set a few things straight however.
First, I never said anything about stealth being a problem, or that sins were broken. I actually supported stealth as a method to counter the high range shot damage of casters, and pointed out the skills they could use to add damage to their attacks and make up for lack of equivalent damage you claim they have. You put words in my mouth and say I QQ. Guess that makes you the real QQer.
Second, you say I ignore your "maths" I don't, but I do point out that they can't be taken for face value because you don't include all the variables that actually go into a damage equation. I didn't want to throw out a bunch of formulas, or do complex calculations, I wanted to keep things simple. But since you claim I'm ignoring your "pro maths" here you go.WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »1/5 > X / ( 1 + 0.9 + X )
1/5 > X / ( 1.9 + X ) // x 1.9 + X
1.9X/5 < 1. // 1.9/5
X > 0.53
X/150 = 0.53 //150
X = 79,5
Here is the equation as written from your last post.You only use one variable, the nebulous X and its not well explained how you got it. What is X? Is it damage? Is it a stat value such as STR DEX or MAG? and where are these other variables in the equations? For the sake of argument let's run your numbers. Since its considered bad math to use fractions in a decimal point system lets change these fractions to decimals. I don't know what // means, I tried looking it up but came back with nothing. Using your second equation as an example I'm assuming it's where your showing your work where you divide the equation by the numbers within it to find the value for X. I don't know why you do this instead of just posting the 2 equations as it confuses the values, but whatever, I'll roll with it.
0.20 > X / (1 + 0.9 + X)
X>0.53
X/150 = 0.53
X= 79.5
Let's plug it in.
0.20 > X / (1 + 0.9 + X)
Assuming order of operations and notation of parenthesis.
0.20 > 79.5 / 81.4
0.20 > 0.98?
Regardless of what you're trying to explain, you can't simply put 2 formulas on top of each other, come up with a value for the undefined X and claim they are related. Perhaps you mistyped one of the + values and it should be an x for multiplication or perhaps you didn't mean to add the 1 in the formula, but since you don't explain where you get your numbers from I can't be sure which. You mention Dex later. Is X dex? Why is it dex? And what does that have to do with psys magic or a BM's strength, both of which correlate with their class differently.
Neodaystar had a much better, clearer equation... that was dead wrong. Lets run his numbers as well.Neodaystar - Sanctuary wrote: »For non caster class it's:
attack multiplier = 1 + ( Dex or str/ 150 ) + weapon mastery + physical attack buffs
For Casters it's:
attack multiplier = 1 + ( Mag / 100 ) + mastery + magical attack buffs
R999 3 piece bonus set gives 100 dex/str/mag to their class, so it's not uncommon for a class now to have 500 points at least for their attribute points to be used in the attack multiplier.
Non casters: 500/150 = 3.33
Casters: 500/100 = 5
So you are looking at a 1.67 difference in the multiplier, or in other words 167% weapon attack per hit.
He is right 500/150 does = 3.33 and 500/100 = 5 leading to a difference of 1.67 in the multiplier
Sadly that's only 1/2 of the equation he posted. Lets add some other numbers into those variables he used. For sake of argument let's max the masteries and give each player one buff.
attack damage = 1 + ( 500/ 150 ) + 90% + Sage Titan (40%)
attack damage = 1 + ( 500 / 100 ) + 25% + Sage Arcane Power (70%)
1st equation = 1 + 3.33 + 0.9 + 0.4 = 5.63
2nd equaton = 1 + 5 + 0.25 + 0.7 = 6.95
which gives us an actual difference 1.32.
Of course as mentioned earlier this simpler equation is wrong. I'm sure it wasn't meant to be a straight on accurate representation but as written it is at least misleading. The magic mastery uses full elemental damage as I explained before while the weapon mastery focuses on weapon attack. On top of this Refines must also be taken into account as they effect the damages through the physical and magical weapons differently. The buffs also work differently and proper formulas would have to display this in order to get a true correlation between the classes. Not to mention accuracy and criticals.
Here's another formula you brought up earlierWnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »Simplest point is from 92 to 100, where masteries are maxed.
For 92 caster, say sage psy with 25% mastery. They need what, 50 points of str(TT90)? so 45 extra point out of 455, leaving 400 for mag or total of 405.
We get damage multiplier with 1 + 405/100 = 5.05 x 1.25 = 6.31
92 sin, lets say sage sin with 90% mastery. TT90 LA so there goes 94 str, which means 89 extra points of 455. Leaves us 5 + (455-89[=366]) = 371 dex.
1 + 371 / 150 + 0.9 = 4.37
Relative difference, 6.31 - 4.37 / 4.37 x 100% = 44%
8 levels = 40 stat points
And say extra 100 points from gear, which is less than reality on high end game gear, but helps to realize difference
Lvl 100 psy needs 54 str so 40-4 = 36. This 36 and 100 added to 405 = 541
We get damage multiplier with 1 + 541/100 = 6.41 x 1.25 = 8.01
Level 100 sin needs 104 str
it`s 10 more than 94 so 40 - 10 = 30 + 100 from gear + existing 371 = 501
1 + 501 / 150 + 0.9 = 5,24
Relative difference 8.01 - 5.24 / 5.24 x 100% = 53%
The point is, at end game the difference in stat point modifier formula has bigger and bigger effect on relative dmg multiplier between classes. With R999 set bonuses, etc. The relative damage multiplier is even higher between R999 psy and R999 sin, let alone BMs/barbs who need both str and dex.
The thread argues about correlation of damage through stat points, yet you fluctuate the stat points arguing its for the sake of gear. If you're going to gimp the STR/DEX of the DDer and compare it to the MAG of the caster and claim the damage is different because of it, you would be correct. 371 dex is indeed lower than 405 mag. Brilliant! Not taking into account other formulas that would use gear as a factor, even if we were to give them both equal points in DEX and MAG the basic formulas remain wrong. You still don't factor in attack speed and casting speed, two entirely different variables which affect total damage. And where is the percent proc of 200% (240% with buff) damage with crit based on that same variable of DEX which should be added to the sins equation? We can factor this in for the caster too, but their score increase would be much lower from it. This is why I keep saying your arguments are invalid due to bad math. You don't include all the varialbes that go into a classes actual damage when arguing for nerf to the MAG stat/damage coeficient. Instead you focus only on the coeficients themselves and write up inaccurate equations that focus on only one aspect of the entire damage equation. NEED I MAKE MYSELF ANY CLEARER? Please don't answer that, because it would only prove what a troll you are.
I'm not even going to touch the **** about TT, hercs, APS and the economy, and the numerous times you contradict your previous posts. I've already made my points on those and that's not what this thread is about.0
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