Is 100 magic per damage multiplier still fair?

VKnightV - Lost City

____BM____ - Sanctuary wrote: »

55 dex means you won't be hitting anyone, period. Archers and sins rolling around with mental evasion means your chance of doing anything as a bm is made mute.

Pure Axe Bm = Useless bm pretty much. b:bye

ooh then i have to excuse the sin i killed with my barb who only have 50 or 55 dex
and who actually DID hit and kill them.

Sylvae - Sanctuary

VKnightV - Lost City wrote: »

ooh then i have to excuse the sin i killed with my barb who only have 50 or 55 dex
and who actually DID hit and kill them.

Means alot less if you had Bloodbath on.

Lupko - Heavens Tear

i think 100% hit rate by spell is annoying...well if not counting save vs spell

VKnightV - Lost City

stay claw and keep qq or go pure axes.


choice is pretty simpel even if you dont want to see it.


and dont talk about cash cow when u are the one feeding pwi with cash u imbecil.


even if my inglish is not good at least i have more sence then u aparently and plz keep qq it keep me entertained.

bm have cash but no brain yup sum him up pretty well

Sylvae - Sanctuary wrote: »

Means alot less if you had Bloodbath on.

i never use bloodbath i actually hate it.

i enjoy teh miss cos its part of the fn i just know when i hit its gona hit hard wish in turn make sin make lots of mistakes.


better bigger dph then having to relly on crith just for decent damage i say.


hell if i where to crith um

Lupko - Heavens Tear wrote: »

i think 100% hit rate by spell is annoying...well if not counting save vs spell

the thing is we all know caster were never gona miss.

we also know melee was dex and str

the complaining now is a bit odd or very odd


its always been this way



if gear was to be removed would u feel the same

r9 aps all but tt90 would u still think all these was enoying

Cristalwhite - Harshlands

hi,
you all keep talking about pvp
did you forget pve?

if you look in the post i made in the last 3 years you will find me QQ about
the weakness of a wizard in pve. our skills take alot of time and the aps people
do twice the damage in the same time as we cast one skill. did you forget nirvana
where only 5 aps bms and sins were wanted while a magic class coudn't get his
gear alone. every magic user created a aps class, quit, or tried to merchant to keep
up with that inbalance.

lets just point this out.
the main problem first of all is how diffrently PWI handel pvp and pve.
this make it almost impossible to blanace the classes between eachother and pve.

and btw. 40% channeling or 70 % is indeed not bad, but there is still the casting time
so there is never a instant hit. and they suffer far more defense penalty than aps do to get that
channeling. if i use Essential Sutra i can indeed shoot 3 or 4 spells in a row in maybe 6 seconds. but a aps char can hit you 12 or 24 times in the same time.

and let me add one more thing.
arguing is useless here.
the responsible people wont read it, and if they do
they will have other barriers which block them to change anything.
Also we actually dont know that much about the game mechanic,
so arguing here is again a guessing story.
And at the end, we also dont know what the plan behind this all was.

They may want it exactly how it is.
They may want to **** old people off, who dont spend money anymore,
to make room for new people.

I complaint about the inbalance since i started and i read several threads about it.
nothing happend.

Not to mention it took them 6 month to shut the special frost city dragon glitch down,
which broke the game to the hell. You expect anything still? b:bye

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

VKnightV - Lost City wrote: »

u will 99% hit any caster trust me caster dont usally have dex on there builds.

VKnightV - Lost City wrote: »

ooh then i have to excuse the sin i killed with my barb who only have 50 or 55 dex
and who actually DID hit and kill them.

Ignoring casters who have endgame tomes with +45 dex as well as other gear adding to dex? There are a few with 80+ dex base.

And barbs have 6 skills that are 100% accurate, so they can get by with low dex. BMs have 2, both require chi, and one is our weakest sword skill so to use an endgame sword we're still looking at around 150 dex. Again, it just makes sense for BMs to stat 200 dex and use all their weapon paths.

Ghoul's gonna be laughed off another posting alt b:laugh

Cristalwhite - Harshlands wrote: »

hi,
you all keep talking about pvp
did you forget pve?

did you forget nirvana where only 5 aps bms and sins were wanted while a magic class coudn't get his gear alone. every magic user created a aps class, quit, or tried to merchant to keepup with that inbalance.

and btw. 40% channeling or 70 % is indeed not bad, but there is still the casting time so there is never a instant hit. and they suffer far more defense penalty than aps do to get that channeling. if i use Essential Sutra i can indeed shoot 3 or 4 spells in a row in maybe 6 seconds. but a aps char can hit you 12 or 24 times in the same time.

and let me add one more thing.
arguing is useless here.

Fair points. I bring up pvp because it's a competition and pvp is where people's class preference actually matters. I prefer to play my BM because timing matters and I enjoy the multitude of options 50% skills, 5 weapons, and 3 sets of gear offers. I mostly find PvP boring and repetitive, even more than spamming 100 Nirvanas in a row, but I find BM the most versatile and interesting. In PvE class preference matters less. People can whisper me "Hey! Lunar! Mind bringing your xxxxxxx" and I'm cool with whatever class they suggest. PvP being a competition people have class preferences, but we also want the classes to be balanced when we compete against each other. One class getting 100% more damage for 100 points while another only get 67% is not fair.

As far as PvE, everyone has a right to make a sin. It may not be your first choice. I personally prefer melee and don't enjoy ranged classes as much but I still play them just for experience and a change of pace. So I understand people who prefer ranged, but the option is still there to make an aps char for farming. Option is also there to make your own squads and invite who you want. The problem is most casters NEED aps in their squad because even though their dps is lower they want someone to make up the speed for them. And on the flip side of that, caster dominate events with their huge range while melee watching things die as they run towards them so many melee chars have made casters for events.

Two other points: Casters can have similar pdef to HA endgame, but far higher mdef, while aps sets give up about as much defense as -channeling sets (that's why sins, BMs, and many barbs need 2 endgame sets. A dd set and a defense set, while most casters are just swapping ornies). Second, everyone suffers cast time, not just casters. Skill spam is common now even for BMs and sins. The difference is casters have more -channeling, carry apos, and have skills to reduce their skill spam time.

I just made this thread because I think its unfair and not common knowledge that the damage programming is different for only half of the classes. I thought there'd be more public outcry if people understood casters have different damage ratios than us, especially now with r9t3 defenses, damage output, and Purify proc the differences have become so exagerated.

ovenusarmanio

Hard Armor, defensively, is the best armor in the game. AA has caught up a lot but still. AA has more offense, HA has bit more defense. I don't really see how thats a huge problem, it's been the way the game has worked for a long time. I think the real problem is things that have broken out the balancing nature such as the purify proc. Ill admit I've only mostly observed endgame pvp, but when I see heavies trying to get in there they can't because of that proc. I've seen r999 people run flags by themselves with 20 people hitting them, and low levels trying to apply debuffs actually hurts their nation. That's just crazytown banana pants. If once you got in there, you could use control skills, it would not matter as much that they are doing more damage than you are doing.

And saying they should nerf casters out of pve because they can always roll a farmer toon is the same as saying that you could just make a caster for pvp. Nobody should have to invest hundreds of dollars on something they hate just so they can play something they like on either front. Just because you find class matters less because you have the time to roll multiple toons, doesn't mean other people do. And PvE should be taken into account whenever you're making the case for that a particular class should be nerfed.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

Valirah - Sanctuary wrote: »

Maybe he should stop farming L30 nubs.

In equal gear, R999 archers aren't one shotting anyone.

Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I was going to say the same thing

As not everyone can afford to get end games gears +12 full JosD.

VKnightV - Lost City

[
And saying they should nerf casters out of pve because they can always roll a farmer toon is the same as saying that you could just make a caster for pvp. Nobody should have to invest hundreds of dollars on something they hate just so they can play something they like on either front. Just because you find class matters less because you have the time to roll multiple toons, doesn't mean other people do. And PvE should be taken into account whenever you're making the case for that a particular class should be nerfed.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

+1000000000000000000000000


that is what i am saying but somehow he dont wish to get it.


pve and pvp are equally broken

i myself love playing barb mostly 99% and i have to suffer to the aps crazy just cos this bm dont mind multy playing and have learn to accept the brokeness

you may talk sht of ghoul all u like i its not my toon anymore compared to you i dont mind the coin i invested in him so i gave him to some girl i know.

plz if you think she suck tell her that its not me ur insulting lol

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

VKnightV - Lost City wrote: »

you may talk sht of ghoul all u like i its not my toon anymore compared to you i dont mind the coin i invested in him so i gave him to some girl i know.

plz if you think she suck tell her that its not me ur insulting lol

Brilliant. Post in forums you account share.

Also calling me a cash shopper when I'm a notorious advocate of f2p, while you used to brag about how much coin you put in the game and how you would just pay more to win. Lost the account so I guess you had a change of heart, eh?

Then you made a second barb and got laughed at on KingClawX and out of the barb forums for not knowing about barbs. Someday you'll learn.

VKnightV - Lost City

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Brilliant. Post in forums you account share.

Also calling me a cash shopper when I'm a notorious advocate of f2p, while you used to brag about how much coin you put in the game and how you would just pay more to win. Lost the account so I guess you had a change of heart, eh?

Then you made a second barb and got laughed at on KingClawX and out of the barb forums for not knowing about barbs. Someday you'll learn.

1st of all learn to understand ppl is something you lack in tons.

no its not that easy as u claim it

i did cash shop some so what my money wont bind me to a toon i felt sick of the char and someone wanted it so she can keep it.

i did not steal my bro barb he let me keep it he was interested in another class so i played with it for a while made him better wihile enjoying it.
good money spend on it.

i also gave him away in wish case i took a break and its not in my name anymore

when i gave a toon its not mine anymore sadly that player now was **** and have scammed some ppl.

in any case i dont need to tell you anything sakabuto as ur a free loader and i payed for ur stay it seem.

you should say ty you for letting me play for free and move on but instead you act like ur god when in true ur a free loader or should i call u a leecher.

in any case you dont have to respond back as i dont care for ppl who think they god but when it come to it have leeched from the rest of us and still act so chieldish.

inglish or no inglish

Subtraction - Harshlands

i have no idea what i'm reading

Born_Free - Lost City

....I.....think it's a QQ thread about how casters are OP....

...Maybe we should tell them what they told us when we complained about APS.

Get over it.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear

This thread has grown since I last visited, a shame it's devolved into a "this class does more damage than me QQ" thread.

The only thing added that I would like to comment on is the armor differences Venus brought up. I would have to respectfully disagree about the current differences in armor. With shards and refines AA armor (though primarily R9RR+) can achieve physical defense scores comparable to any well geared HA build, coupled with their high mag defense this makes them very difficult to kill through any means. Throw the purify proc on top of that, and, well... you certainly have a balance problem, but not for the reasons the OP mentioned. I know it will be said that HA's can approach similar magic defense boosts, and that would be correct, but this is where overall damage, chanelling, and attack times would come in and with -chan and x100 damage modifier casters certainly have at least a slight advantage. Now, you might think that this would prove the OP's point, however, these builds are possible through gear and its availability alone. They were not possible in the first 2 years of the game and even in the early stages of R9 there were many sacrifices that had to be made in other areas to achieve this level of defense. With the new R9 and its insane defense, attack bonuses, stat adds and +12 refines these sacrifices are practically nullified. Once again, I repeat what I said earlier, the problem is gear, not damage calculations.


[QUOTE=Born_Free - Lost City;18824881
...Maybe we should tell them what they told us when we complained about APS.

Get over it.[/QUOTE]

^ This. I remember reading all those posts by born again APSers who were living the high life with their broken gear. I do take a sort of sick pleasure in watching them squirm now that broken gear, its addition they defended so long ago, is now working against them.

VKnightV - Lost City

Born_Free - Lost City wrote: »

....I.....think it's a QQ thread about how casters are OP....

...Maybe we should tell them what they told us when we complained about APS.

Get over it.

+1

omg ur awesome

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Born_Free - Lost City wrote: »

....I.....think it's a QQ thread about how casters are OP....

...Maybe we should tell them what they told us when we complained about APS.

Get over it.

Isn't it bad when the forum trolls agree with you b:thanks

Admittedly, this is somewhat a QQ thread following a bit of rage from hearing our r9r barbs with full vit stones rage in vent after being hit for 76k by a wizzy in NW. It lead to the discussion of game balance and damage multipliers. When I mentioned 100 stats = 1x damage for casters someone tried to correct me "no, its 150". No, it's 100, but only for casters. It made me realize most people don't know that casters get 1/3 more damage for each stat point.

The comparison to aps is extremely loose at best. Aps is a proper game dynamic with advancing returns that people have taken advantage of (Similar to slaying levels stacking with attack levels. Its hax, but legit), but sacrificed defense and gear versatility (i.e. the cookie cutter build) to gain those returns that are only effective when stacked. Aps really aren't that effective until a 450mil investment in gear. The community as a whole also benefits from aps because more mats being farmed means cheaper mats. Every caster in game has bought some TT or Nirvana mats for a lower price because they were farmed by an aps dd. They've had faster BHs. They've had safer BH and saved themselves countless number of deaths because the boss was killed in 30 seconds, rather than 15 minutes. The crux is every dd wants to be the most powerful dd and it isn't fair that casters don't use regular attacks.

Statting should, theoretically, be equal. This is just "I get 1, you get .67" with no logic behind it whatsoever. A double standard.

I said it was probably for low game balance but I'm really rethinking that. My psychic literally was hit like 8 times in the first 60 levels because it killed everything before it reached it. My wiz, same thing. My veno had all sorts of aggro problems because the attacks pulled aggro off the pet too easily.

I don't think it'd be fair to give melee 1x damage per 100 points though because can you imagine Sins with 33% more dph? I also think casters are too much into tab target and nuke, ignore skill. I think bringing caster dph into range with the rest of the game would be more fair. Heck, as far as game balance maybe we should all drop to 200 stats per multiplier. It'd solve some aggro issues and make it harder to solo, as well as increase aggro skill value.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Isn't it bad when the forum trolls agree with you b:thanks

Admittedly, this is somewhat a QQ thread following a bit of rage from hearing our r9r barbs with full vit stones rage in vent after being hit for 76k by a wizzy in NW. It lead to the discussion of game balance and damage multipliers. When I mentioned 100 stats = 1x damage for casters someone tried to correct me "no, its 150". No, it's 100, but only for casters. It made me realize most people don't know that casters get 1/3 more damage for each stat point.

The comparison to aps is extremely loose at best. Aps is a proper game dynamic with advancing returns that people have taken advantage of (Similar to slaying levels stacking with attack levels. Its hax, but legit), but sacrificed defense and gear versatility (i.e. the cookie cutter build) to gain those returns that are only effective when stacked. Aps really aren't that effective until a 450mil investment in gear. The community as a whole also benefits from aps because more mats being farmed means cheaper mats. Every caster in game has bought some TT or Nirvana mats for a lower price because they were farmed by an aps dd. They've had faster BHs. They've had safer BH and saved themselves countless number of deaths because the boss was killed in 30 seconds, rather than 15 minutes. The crux is every dd wants to be the most powerful dd and it isn't fair that casters don't use regular attacks.

Statting should, theoretically, be equal. This is just "I get 1, you get .67" with no logic behind it whatsoever. A double standard.

I said it was probably for low game balance but I'm really rethinking that. My psychic literally was hit like 8 times in the first 60 levels because it killed everything before it reached it. My wiz, same thing. My veno had all sorts of aggro problems because the attacks pulled aggro off the pet too easily.

I don't think it'd be fair to give melee 1x damage per 100 points though because can you imagine Sins with 33% more dph? I also think casters are too much into tab target and nuke, ignore skill. I think bringing caster dph into range with the rest of the game would be more fair. Heck, as far as game balance maybe we should all drop to 200 stats per multiplier. It'd solve some aggro issues and make it harder to solo, as well as increase aggro skill value.

And after this change R 10 is released making everyone BUT a R10 user worthless

Lets face it man PWI is anathema to balance

If all skills were updated to take into account the change in gameplay and the difference in gear tiers (tt99/lunar are no longer gear cap) all classes would benefit however new gen classes (EG/TB) and most ranged classes would benefit faaar less than say...BM's from such a skill revamp.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Isn't it bad when the forum trolls agree with you b:thanks

Admittedly, this is somewhat a QQ thread following a bit of rage from hearing our r9r barbs with full vit stones rage in vent after being hit for 76k by a wizzy in NW. It lead to the discussion of game balance and damage multipliers. When I mentioned 100 stats = 1x damage for casters someone tried to correct me "no, its 150". No, it's 100, but only for casters. It made me realize most people don't know that casters get 1/3 more damage for each stat point.

The comparison to aps is extremely loose at best. Aps is a proper game dynamic with advancing returns that people have taken advantage of (Similar to slaying levels stacking with attack levels. Its hax, but legit), but sacrificed defense and gear versatility (i.e. the cookie cutter build) to gain those returns that are only effective when stacked. Aps really aren't that effective until a 450mil investment in gear. The community as a whole also benefits from aps because more mats being farmed means cheaper mats. Every caster in game has bought some TT or Nirvana mats for a lower price because they were farmed by an aps dd. They've had faster BHs. They've had safer BH and saved themselves countless number of deaths because the boss was killed in 30 seconds, rather than 15 minutes. The crux is every dd wants to be the most powerful dd and it isn't fair that casters don't use regular attacks.

Statting should, theoretically, be equal. This is just "I get 1, you get .67" with no logic behind it whatsoever. A double standard.

I said it was probably for low game balance but I'm really rethinking that. My psychic literally was hit like 8 times in the first 60 levels because it killed everything before it reached it. My wiz, same thing. My veno had all sorts of aggro problems because the attacks pulled aggro off the pet too easily.

I don't think it'd be fair to give melee 1x damage per 100 points though because can you imagine Sins with 33% more dph? I also think casters are too much into tab target and nuke, ignore skill. I think bringing caster dph into range with the rest of the game would be more fair. Heck, as far as game balance maybe we should all drop to 200 stats per multiplier. It'd solve some aggro issues and make it harder to solo, as well as increase aggro skill value.

That line, right there, that's where I stopped taking you seriously. A shame, at first I thought you had a legitimate point about balance, even though incorrect. Now I can see your just an APSer that wants to QQ now that things aren't going your way anymore and you looked for a more legitimate way than most to try and create a bias towards specific classes. I would tip my hat off to you if your hypocrisy didn't make me sick. It's a hax but legit? The only person you're successfully lying to is yourself.

But even that's not what's truly disgusting about all of this. APSers took advantage of a truly broken formula to attain insane levels of damage. Magic users have attained their damage by taking advantage of a legitimate formula that wasn't broken then and isn't broken now, and here some APSer crybaby wants to change it. Why didn't you want to change your APS formula when you knew that was broken? Why should magic users have to change theirs now?

APS was NOT good for the servers. Lowering TT mats to dirt cheap ruined an otherwise legitimate end game economy. Finishing TT runs in 15 min as opposed to 3 hrs took a lot of the team work aspect and social interaction out of the game. Not to mention that a lot of casters HAD to buy TT mats because APSers cut them out of the farming loop. What's worse? PWE used APS to guage the communities reaction to the broken **** they were adding, and the information served them well. With many people rerolling APS and giving them money for packs to attain APS items they saw a cash cow through power rolling that they have taken advantage of to this day.

As Born_Free said, you don't like it? Tough. You fed the monster that was power through cash and now that it's working against you its too late to stop it.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

APS was NOT good for the servers. Lowering TT mats to dirt cheap ruined an otherwise legitimate end game economy. Finishing TT runs in 15 min as opposed to 3 hrs took a lot of the team work aspect and social interaction out of the game.

And I stopped reading right there. That great team work and "social interaction" you're talking about during those 3 hour TT runs ?

Consisted of Barb and Cleric taking the choice of drops at the end while the DDs were left to fight over whatever scraps were left. Sure sounded like "fun times" for the servers back then, huh ? b:shutup

WnbTank - Archosaur

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

That line, right there, that's where I stopped taking you seriously. A shame, at first I thought you had a legitimate point about balance, even though incorrect. Now I can see your just an APSer that wants to QQ now that things aren't going your way anymore and you looked for a more legitimate way than most to try and create a bias towards specific classes. I would tip my hat off to you if your hypocrisy didn't make me sick. It's a hax but legit? The only person you're successfully lying to is yourself.

Both are broken but fact is APS has more grounds of balance than higher multiplier of damage for casters. APS only becomes problem when stacked and it always comes with a cost - APS gear is quite squishy. Difference to magic multiplier is how stacking magic doesnt really come with any cost. No vit? Do you see anybody but barbs with added vit? Discounting obvious poor Bob`s TW clerics/etc.

There though is similarity in how stat point multiplier only starts to really show on higher levels as masteries play fairly big part in dmg multipliers(and standard 100% multiplier) on earlier/mid levels. Endgame bigger part of the dmg multiplier comes from stat points. The higher stat points we go, the higher relative dmg multiplier casters get than anyone else. For example, on level 50 total multiplier of caster can be 20% higher than melee`s and due how standard multipliers dont really grow at endgame, least not as quickly as stat point multipliers, on lvl 100 it will be over 20%. Number 20% is taken off hat so to say, in truth we are talking bout bigger relative difference.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

But even that's not what's truly disgusting about all of this. APSers took advantage of a truly broken formula to attain insane levels of damage. Magic users have attained their damage by taking advantage of a legitimate formula that wasn't broken then and isn't broken now, and here some APSer crybaby wants to change it. Why didn't you want to change your APS formula when you knew that was broken? Why should magic users have to change theirs now?

Back to high school, if we look into the dmg multiplier formulas, we can come in to conclusion I came in the earlier paragraph with basic understanding of statistical math. Least I would category it there instead of mathematical analysis, which I would consider more of means for conclusion.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

APS was NOT good for the servers. Lowering TT mats to dirt cheap ruined an otherwise legitimate end game economy. Finishing TT runs in 15 min as opposed to 3 hrs took a lot of the team work aspect and social interaction out of the game. What's worse? PWE used APS to guage the communities reaction to the broken **** they were adding, and the information served them well. With many people rerolling APS and giving them money for packs to attain APS items they saw a cash cow through power rolling that they have taken advantage of to this day.

As Born_Free said, you don't like it? Tough. You fed the monster that was power through cash and now that it's working against you its too late to stop it.

Hah. The soloing of TTs started with herc and veno, aps made it faster. Prior to aps people were making farming venos, even I started leveling farming veno before I quit for year(s?) till Archosaur started. Soloing TT wasnt result of aps, it got a lot faster cause of it though.

VKnightV - Lost City

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

And I stopped reading right there. That great team work and "social interaction" you're talking about during those 3 hour TT runs ?

Consisted of Barb and Cleric taking the choice of drops at the end while the DDs were left to fight over whatever scraps were left. Sure sounded like "fun times" for the servers back then, huh ? b:shutup

and how many barb and cleric did you brought with u on those 3 man tt runs you did in 15 min runs.

aps is broken just as the rest of the sht and now your just qqing ur 450milj is wortless sure when r9 and r9rr is a few k

VKnightV - Lost City

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Both are broken

Hah. The soloing of TTs started with herc and veno, aps made it faster. Prior to aps people were making farming venos, even I started leveling farming veno before I quit for year(s?) till Archosaur started. Soloing TT wasnt result of aps, it got a lot faster cause of it though.

yes veno started soloing but the ycoudl never do the betetr part of party tt modes

they were best at solo mode

wish was always worse drop rate to begin with

and the speed was so bad compared to the aps wish come after that aps could make tons of coin before a veno ever finished her 1st run with a chance to 0% drop.


you urself said it aps was and is broken

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

And I stopped reading right there. That great team work and "social interaction" you're talking about during those 3 hour TT runs ?

Consisted of Barb and Cleric taking the choice of drops at the end while the DDs were left to fight over whatever scraps were left. Sure sounded like "fun times" for the servers back then, huh ? b:shutup

Are you serious? Did you even run TTs back then? Your flippant response makes me doubt it. You obviously have no idea how much a TT run used to cost a barb or cleric to run. Most considered the system fair considering that barbs would walk out of a TT with a 200k repair bill as opposed to the BM's 40-50k.

There were of course detractors, largely BM's who felt they deserved more than they actually did and at times had to be kicked out for causing more problems in runs then they were worth. FYI, Wizards and venos also fell into the DD category so yes I fell into that systems low end as well. Did I mind? No, because I understood the resources I used for the run were far less than the barb, cleric, or opener.

Scraps? Most TTs dropped enough so that most would get something they needed. AND... If you REALLY had an issue with barbs and clerics getting SECOND and THIRD pick in the ROUND ROBIN system the simplest solution was to simply pay the subs to open the run and get FIRST.

Still have a problem? Okay, do a faction run and let ALL mats go to those who need them. Back then factions helped each other out quite a bit and there was far less backstabbing. I knew many barbs and clerics who would go just to get to know how their faction mates worked and help friends. They would take only the lowest priced mats for repairs IF ANY and only if they weren't needed. How many APSers would do that at the height of the APS craze? I knew of none, and their costs were significantly less considering they could kill the bosses a lot faster than old school squads.

Oh, and one last bit of irony, after APS became the primary farming method APSers started calling second (and some even had the gall to call first when they didn't open) for any all class farming run that they were a part of (and those became few and far between I might add). Barbs, casters? They could take a hike.

So yes, runs back then were more fun and far more fair. If you didn't like the system there were alternatives and if you were one of those that just didn't want to share you could always do solo runs. Next time you want to talk from the hip and not from experience take an example from this smiley b:shutup

VKnightV - Lost City

tell you what would you remove ur aps gear completly and go back axe to show ur man enough and that aps is not broken if the casters would get a nerf on there multiplier.


i mean for ever and only use ur god forsaking regular skill for pve and pvp.


i dobt that cos you love ur hax damage

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

Makers of this game put -interval into this game

how is it not intended then

VKnightV - Lost City

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Are you serious? Did you even run TTs back then? Your flippant response makes me doubt it. You obviously have no idea how much a TT run used to cost a barb or cleric to run. Most considered the system fair considering that barbs would walk out of a TT with a 200k repair bill as opposed to the BM's 40-50k.

There were of course detractors, largely BM's who felt they deserved more than they actually did and at times had to be kicked out for causing more problems in runs then they were worth. FYI, Wizards and venos also fell into the DD category so yes I fell into that systems low end as well. Did I mind? No, because I understood the resources I used for the run were far less than the barb, cleric, or opener.

Scraps? Most TTs dropped enough so that most would get something they needed. AND... If you REALLY had an issue with barbs and clerics getting SECOND and THIRD pick in the ROUND ROBIN system the simplest solution was to simply pay the subs to open the run and get FIRST.

Still have a problem? Okay, do a faction run and let ALL mats go to those who need them. Back then factions helped each other out quite a bit and there was far less backstabbing. I knew many barbs and clerics who would go just to get to know how their faction mates worked and help friends. They would take only the lowest priced mats for repairs IF ANY and only if they weren't needed. How many APSers would do that at the height of the APS craze? I knew of none, and their costs were significantly less considering they could kill the bosses a lot faster than old school squads.

Oh, and one last bit of irony, after APS became the primary farming method APSers started calling second (and some even had the gall to call first when they didn't open) for any all class farming run that they were a part of (and those became few and far between I might add). Barbs, casters? They could take a hike.

So yes, runs back then were more fun and far more fair. If you didn't like the system there were alternatives and if you were one of those that just didn't want to share you could always do solo runs. Next time you want to talk from the hip and not from experience take an example from this smiley b:shutup

omg i actually did one of those runs i was scared ofc but pp lwere so much friendlier then this aps crazy wish only think how long it take to do a run or multi runs.

one of these factio nwas called red hawk was a tight famely and cant even remember ppl thinking caster and archer dd as back then.

b:pleased

ty for making me remember those were good old times

took forver but we hade lots of fun and no noobs.b:laugh

VKnightV - Lost City

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Makers of this game put -interval into this game

how is it not intended then

yes but you dont get it before tideborn the aps was still small ppl as they mostly where wearing La gear.

if i remember correctly it all stared with some ppl wanting to play ninjas this tiem most bm were eitehr axe bm or vit bm

some odd sword bm to

5aps was IMPOSSIBLE

aps was good dd but was not meant to solo there sht out and no bp so they played and still did more hf then i can remember and aps for hf to have hf ready.


much diff then todays hax aps

wish is why 3aps shoudl have beep the cap

not 5 aps as its hax

Joshcja - Sanctuary

VKnightV - Lost City wrote: »

yes but you dont get it before tideborn the aps was still small ppl as they mostly where wearing La gear.

if i remember correctly it all stared with some ppl wanting to play ninjas this tiem most bm were eitehr axe bm or vit bm

some odd sword bm to

5aps was IMPOSSIBLE

aps was good dd but was not meant to solo there sht out and no bp so they played and still did more hf then i can remember and aps for hf to have hf ready.


much diff then todays hax aps

wish is why 3aps shoudl have beep the cap

not 5 aps as its hax

2x tt99 HA
2x tt99 LA
tome
cape
-.1 claw/fist
-.1 bracer

5 aps

archers could hit it without even getting the tome or caps

your 2011 join date 6 man TT runs were long dead then

Every time you post my opinion of you falls, and that's just magical because I had absolutely no positive thought on you after the first post of yours I read.

Are you yulk?

VKnightV - Lost City

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

2x tt99 HA
2x tt99 LA
tome
cape
-.1 claw/fist
-.1 bracer

5 aps

archers could hit it without even getting the tome or caps

your 2011 join date 6 man TT runs were long dead then

Every time you post my opinion of you falls, and that's just magical because I had absolutely no positive thought on you after the first post of yours I read.

Are you yulk?

wrong this is a older account

ty i just love to hear how bm defend there so op aps wish shoudl have been caped soooo long ego.

are you one of those leechers who been so good at abusing aps to the fullest to not get aps was hax from the very start.

sadly i am not but keep qqing me love hearing how aps fails u now

WnbTank - Archosaur

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Are you serious? Did you even run TTs back then? Your flippant response makes me doubt it. You obviously have no idea how much a TT run used to cost a barb or cleric to run. Most considered the system fair considering that barbs would walk out of a TT with a 200k repair bill as opposed to the BM's 40-50k.

Have you actually played barb or cleric? Only place where I have gotten 200k+ repairs is full delta if I dont repair in between. And that is before seekers, where barb held most of the aggro. When we did SP, there were times when I had to equip another cape as the old one broke. Luckily kitty had 2 wing trophy capes . Point being, 200k repairs on barb are ludicrous for TT, I dont know bout clerics and mp charms. Reason barbs got first pick is because they were and still are so rare, repairs are higher than DDs but nowhere near the extent you seem to think of.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

There were of course detractors, largely BM's who felt they deserved more than they actually did and at times had to be kicked out for causing more problems in runs then they were worth. FYI, Wizards and venos also fell into the DD category so yes I fell into that systems low end as well. Did I mind? No, because I understood the resources I used for the run were far less than the barb, cleric, or opener.

You bought the propaganda, good for you. And reason why you could replace BM "making trouble" is because finding another DD or even a BM was so easy. You didnt replace barbs as finding another would be fairly difficult.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Scraps? Most TTs dropped enough so that most would get something they needed. AND... If you REALLY had an issue with barbs and clerics getting SECOND and THIRD pick in the ROUND ROBIN system the simplest solution was to simply pay the subs to open the run and get FIRST.

I solo TTs and I consider the droprates meh most of the time. 1-X and 2-X arent bad but 3-1 is flatout horrible, granted veno with herc could solo squad mode[Edit: Prior to changes to beast and steelation]. As for paying sub for first pick, I didnt, not once, run into situation where subber got first pick if it wasnt barb subbing. Might of been a server thing though.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Still have a problem? Okay, do a faction run and let ALL mats go to those who need them. Back then factions helped each other out quite a bit and there was far less backstabbing. I knew many barbs and clerics who would go just to get to know how their faction mates worked and help friends. They would take only the lowest priced mats for repairs IF ANY and only if they weren't needed. How many APSers would do that at the height of the APS craze? I knew of none, and their costs were significantly less considering they could kill the bosses a lot faster than old school squads.

On Archosaur Mist gathered non aps nirvy squads from WC, despite finding her personality and intelligence questionable at times, I have to give her that. She was R9 sin with +10 or +12 daggers and 4aps aka highest tier sin at the time. I, alongside countless other people I know/have heard of, do similar things for faction. Though mostly non aps squads were for when keys were almost gone/guildies needed 99 keys. Was fairly common of sitting 1-2h straight doing 99 keys for faction with maybe another sin and BM.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Oh, and one last bit of irony, after APS became the primary farming method APSers started calling second (and some even had the gall to call first when they didn't open) for any all class farming run that they were a part of (and those became few and far between I might add). Barbs, casters? They could take a hike.

If APS toon is tanking, it has a lot higher repair bills than barb does. I am assuming we are talking bout the real deal here, not somebody with +5 deicides and 3.33 aps sparked. Though suppose even those, as long as they are tanking, get fairly high repair bills. When I solo FC I have bout 50k repair bill, 90% of that is from weapon.

Subber getting first pick is really bout agreeing to stuff before the run. Barb who doesnt tank can really take a hike if they are asking for first pick, after or before subber. If we use argument of expenses then aps classes really have the highest repairs and they would be entitled for their pick. It`s no barb pick, it`s tank pick, if it`s fair or not is a whole another question. But if you accept barb taking first pick for tanking, you are nothing but hypocrite and stupid if you argue against aps toon for having first pick, as long as it`s tanking.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So yes, runs back then were more fun and far more fair. If you didn't like the system there were alternatives and if you were one of those that just didn't want to share you could always do solo runs. Next time you want to talk from the hip and not from experience take an example from this smiley b:shutup

I would question the ability to solo even solo mode for some classes on gear people ran in ages ago, with minimal if any refines and average shards. I still remember how OMFG I felt when I saw TT70 or 80 BM sharded with flawless/immaculate citrines.

Are you going to follow your own advice?