Is 100 magic per damage multiplier still fair?

WnbTank - Archosaur

Actually you are almost correct in 1 thing. The upper equation wasnt solved correctly, though the premise was set properly. There are 4 mistakes, 3 fairly clear breaks of thought and one which had no impact on anything. And as you didnt like 1/5 we`ll use 0.20. X is dex multiplier, which I found obvious as the same exact equation has been in this topic countless of times. // symbols what I did to the equation.

0.20 > X / ( 1 + 0.9 + X )
0.2 > X / ( 1.9 + X ) // ( 1.9 + X)
0.38 + 0.2X > X
0.38 > 0.8X
0.38 > 4/5X // x 5
1.9 > 4X // :4
0.475 > X

We get X, which is damage multiplier from dex.

X/150 = 0.475 // x 150
X = 71.25

Which means, if sin has over 72 dex with sage dagger devotion, sin will have lower damage multiplier compared to sage psy with 72 mag.

If I learned something, it`s never to do math when you should be sleeping.



But your damage multiplier to sage psy calculations are wrong due plain wrong approach.

"Increases the damage of all earth skills by 25%"

Where damage w/o mastery is X. And damage with mastery is Y.

Y = X + 0.25 x X = 1.25X

But due associative law we can multiply multipliers together and we dont have to use any random value for damage multipliers before multiplying.

X = 1 + 5 + 0.7 = 6.7
Y = 6.7 + 0.25 x 6.7 = 8.375

This makes no sense compared to non caster value, lets recheck it.

All non caster damage multipliers are weapon damage based, which makes calculating simpler.

X = 1 + 3.33 + 0.9 + 0.4 = 5.63

The only number we can draw from this is, ( 8.375 - 5.63 ) / 5.63 x 100% = 48.8%, which indicates casters have 48.8% higher damage multiplier than non casters.

We can look difference in stat point multipliers from 2 angles, one is 100/150 = 2/3 = 67%. Which means non casters gain only 67% of what casters do on stat multiplier per stat point. Other way is 150/100 = 1.5 = 150% which means casters gain 150% of what non casters do per stat point on stat point multiplier. Or simply put, 50% more, which is pretty close to 48.8% we got earlier.

I dont quite understand what you mean by different refine rates but for same amount of refine increased damage, the magic and non magic weapons work the same, they are multiplied by damage multiplier. R999 wizzie weapon and R999 barb weapon refine the same (1050) but due higher multiplier wizzie would gain more. Sins R999 is 787/1050 x 100% = 75% of what classes mentioned earlier or just 25% less. There is one more thing where refines affect differently and its "XXX% of weapon damage" as the higher %, the higher gain there is from each refined damage point. If it wasnt obvious, casters tend to have fair bit more of those multipliers compared to non casters. All 3(refine rates, multiplier & weapon damage multiplier) points where refines affect differently between classes are favorable for casters.

As for accepting gear requirements? Well I do find them fairly relevant as it sadly is impossible to equip gear w/o required stat points.

If you want to compare DPS, you have to create caster combo to which compare. It has to last 15/18s (depending on if we account first sparking time or not) = 1 spark or 33/36s = 2 spark or 51/54s = 3 sparks, which I believe might be max after which caster cant keep up with chi regen(Starting with full, CE, apo). On wizzies you have to account for essential sutra as it increases dps with cost of having shorter burst time. Counting aps dps is simple and easy, its the caster dps to compare which makes it fairly unappealing task. Deciding on -chan, the combo, sage or demon. With aps, its all so much less biased.

frendlydaddy1

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

if melee DPS class didnt out DPS ranged DPS class, the heck would be the point of melee DPS class?


0) did u read bm descripton of old where it say a dd class on it and dont dare say anything barb as dd cos u dont wana go there.






I rolled barb in first place to pull cata, to tank so I had easier time to get in squads. I didnt like it how APS forced me to restat into claws on my barb




1) i did not know you needed aps to roll a cata i tho it was all about hp and survability

2) ok u rolled with the aps bagon but was it cos u really liked it reading reading nooo u did it cos it was HAX

3) where the balance now cos aps was not balanced if it forced you to becoem aps.

dont need hear more of ur bull **** if this was what happened b:chuckle

betreyer cough

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Actually you are almost correct in 1 thing. The upper equation wasnt solved correctly, though the premise was set properly. There are 4 mistakes, 3 fairly clear breaks of thought and one which had no impact on anything. And as you didnt like 1/5 we`ll use 0.20. X is dex multiplier, which I found obvious as the same exact equation has been in this topic countless of times. // symbols what I did to the equation.

0.20 > X / ( 1 + 0.9 + X )
0.2 > X / ( 1.9 + X ) // ( 1.9 + X)
0.38 + 0.2X > X
0.38 > 0.8X
0.38 > 4/5X // x 5
1.9 > 4X // :4
0.475 > X

We get X, which is damage multiplier from dex.

X/150 = 0.475 // x 150
X = 71.25

Which means, if sin has over 72 dex with sage dagger devotion, sin will have lower damage multiplier compared to sage psy with 72 mag.

If I learned something, it`s never to do math when you should be sleeping.



But your damage multiplier to sage psy calculations are wrong due plain wrong approach.

"Increases the damage of all earth skills by 25%"

Where damage w/o mastery is X. And damage with mastery is Y.

Y = X + 0.25 x X = 1.25X

But due associative law we can multiply multipliers together and we dont have to use any random value for damage multipliers before multiplying.

X = 1 + 5 + 0.7 = 6.7
Y = 6.7 + 0.25 x 6.7 = 8.375

This makes no sense compared to non caster value, lets recheck it.

All non caster damage multipliers are weapon damage based, which makes calculating simpler.

X = 1 + 3.33 + 0.9 + 0.4 = 5.63

The only number we can draw from this is, ( 8.375 - 5.63 ) / 5.63 x 100% = 48.8%, which indicates casters have 48.8% higher damage multiplier than non casters.

We can look difference in stat point multipliers from 2 angles, one is 100/150 = 2/3 = 67%. Which means non casters gain only 67% of what casters do on stat multiplier per stat point. Other way is 150/100 = 1.5 = 150% which means casters gain 150% of what non casters do per stat point on stat point multiplier. Or simply put, 50% more, which is pretty close to 48.8% we got earlier. .

Yes you are right, I went back and fixed this after spending a great deal of time trying to figure out how we were looking at the same formula differently. After finally figuring out that 1 stood in for the damage of the weapon I went back and changed the damage modifier calculations accordingly. Not the way I would have written them but I suppose it works. Keep in mind the two damage equations were written as they were posted. I already knew they were wrong. Your equations above and the approach of using the 0.25 modifier after total damage would likely be more correct. Though this clears up the misunderstandings of the overall equation, it doesn't settle the issue that this is all just one part of a greater whole, the entire point of my previous posts. I never argued that mage damage modifiers for weapon stats wasn't greater than melee's, in fact I agreed with it. I argued that using it as a reason to nerf those coeficients was misleading and didn't take into account many of the other factors that impact overall damage and other classes abilities to counter it.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

I dont quite understand what you mean by different refine rates but for same amount of refine increased damage, the magic and non magic weapons work the same, they are multiplied by damage multiplier. R999 wizzie weapon and R999 barb weapon refine the same but due higher multiplier wizzie would gain more. Sins R999 is 787/1050 x 100% = 75% of what classes mentioned earlier or just 25% less. There is one more thing where refines affect differently and its "XXX% of weapon damage" as the higher %, the higher gain there is from each refined damage point. If it wasnt obvious, casters tend to have fair bit more of those multipliers compared to non casters. All 3(refine rates, multiplier & weapon damage multiplier) points where refines affect differently between classes are favorable for casters. .

No, weapons do not refine the same, even among the same level and teir. Daggers don't get as much of a refine bonus as many of the other weapons for example while bows and other ranged weapons get considerably more. You do mention this but the factors don't remain the same. A quick comparison. S3 bow Jaden Emperors Defiance gets +37 for a 1 star D orb, S3 magic sword Sandy World gets +30 for the same Dorb and S3 Netherworld guidance daggers gets +22. That's 73% for daggers not 75% so even among different types of similar level gear this is different. and 2% can make a huge difference over the course of the long run. In a sense archers, a phys class, are the winners here. Other examples are that Unicorn Tragedies and Sprit of Justice, dual axes and pole axe respectively, also refine for +30 as does S3 Orb Budhha's Hatred so yes, these are the same. A quick example among R9 is the R9 Orb refines for +30 for 1 star while the R9 bow refines for +32, not as big a difference but still present and shows a different percentage difference than S3. Of course these differences grow much larger as we continue of the refining tree to the point where a +12 S3 bow refines for +1387 while an S3 magic sword refines for +1125while poor sins only get +825 on the S3 daggers, a singnifigant difference. This further emphasizes my point that there are other factors in play besides the damage coeficients from stat points, and these factors should be taken into account when arguing about the damage casters create over melees and other physicals.

*edit* As for XXX% weapon damage modifier (from sparks I'm assuming) you are right. Casters do get more, some even get minus chanelling on top of that, not all do. But melee classes also get different bonuses and increase in attack speed is one of them. However where you go wrong is assuming weapon damage = magic damage for casters, it does but they don't get their mastery bonus on top of that. Remember melees masteries go off of weapon damage, increase this and the mastery comes into a play as well. Creating a larger spark bonus than for casters whos masteries go off of total damage. The increase of weapon damage for casters does come into play with the mastery bonus but only after total damage is calculated. This is also ignoring the different ratios at which classes build chi, which can also be a factor over the course of calculating damage output.*edit*

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

As for accepting gear requirements? Well I do find them fairly relevant as it sadly is impossible to equip gear w/o required stat points.

If you want to compare DPS, you have to create caster combo to which compare. It has to last 15/18s (depending on if we account first sparking time or not) = 1 spark or 33/36s = 2 spark or 51/54s = 3 sparks, which I believe might be max after which caster cant keep up with chi regen(Starting with full, CE, apo). On wizzies you have to account for essential sutra as it increases dps with cost of having shorter burst time. Counting aps dps is simple and easy, its the caster dps to compare which makes it fairly unappealing task. Deciding on -chan, the combo, sage or demon. With aps, its all so much less biased.

I never said accepting gear requirments wasn't relevant, only that by including it in the math while focusing only on the damage differences from the stat coeficeints was a flawed approach. Combos are something I brought up earlier but didn't want to elaborate on because it indeed does get messy, as any proper damage formula will eventually do. Yes there are a HUGE variety of combo bonuses from skills alone and that's not factoring in other bonuses from weapons, gems, and armor. Yes calculating APS is easy. But APS is not the only method of damage dealing available to melees, they are capable of combos to and in fact use them quite often. Given the fact their overall channel times are less they also tend to be able to chain together more combos over a set amount of time. Some of these combos don't do damage, but instead create other variables that need to be taken into account along with damage coeficients when it comes to deciding overall balance.

For example venos do not get the same damage modifier per MAG point as other caster classes. So... in a sense not all casters get that MAG/100 coefficient b:surrender They do get higher phys damage bonuses per STR point and a slightly higher bonus to Acc and evade. This is because veno is a duel class and was designed so that neither of its forms could compare to the possible damage of other classes. This is made up for by the addition of the pet, which, when combined brings their damage into line with others. Of course current pets are a joke compared to the state of the game now, but, I'm interested to see how the new formulas for them will play into the venos overall damage. To keep it simple, and use the venos damage quotient in a new formula to determine its weapon damage vs other classes would be interesting but it wouldn't tell us actual damage. 60% of the time I can throw a debuff on that gives me and my pet an additional 30% damage for sage, or we can take it father and say I can throw a debuff 86% of the time for 25% extra damage with Demon. I alreadly mentioned the 200% melee mastery (though wood is still 25%) and how that also influences damage rolls. Other classes have skills that increase damage as well or at least open ways to do more. All in all that's a lot more math than simply throwing up (weapon + coefficient + weapon mastry + weap buff) + phys dam buff or (weapon + coefficient ) + mag buff + mag mastery, and still doesn't account for criticals or att/def levels which do not equal eachother on S3 or R9RR gear. On top of that one would have to run both equations for venos, and then add overall pet damage to each b:sweat

Mystics would also be interesting, they do get the same MAG/100 modifier (though lack the other bonuses) while having multiple pets for different battlefield purposes and different area buffs with their plants. Anyway as I've said, damage is not based solely on coeficients, and balance is based on even more than that. If you change the MAG coeficeitns you would have to change the VIT STR and DEX coeficients too. All correlate to form what is a player character and focusing on one while ingnoring others is why I've kept responding to you on this thread. Hopefully I'm done with this argument. I only made this post to acknowledge that I had to correct my math above.

Haila - Sanctuary

I always get a headache at math classes b:cold
In other words i dont know what u talking about XD

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Aaaand... in this thread I learn, that the only thing more nightmarish than a wall of text is a wall of text that's based around math. -_- Soooo, without wishing to touch the math with a ten foot pole, I'll just reply to the particular sub-discussion that involved me.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Actually the multiplier has always been broken, new gear only makes it more visible. I would change mag multiplier to 100%/150 mag but I would also boost damage on individual skills for casters. Which is how it should of always been imo.

When you say the multiplier has always been broken... do you want to follow up on that, or am I to assume this is just your opinion? Put a BM and a cleric in classic gear (let's say TT99)... from a theoretical perspective, is the cleric more broken, and why? Or is this all about wizards, to you?

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

The point is, specifically wizards dont have natural weaknesses with current end game gear like melee classes do. Unless we take position of APS for melee classes as PvE means to balance PvP imbalance. If Wizard hits harder, is ranged and has comparable defenses to melee classes, surpassing them in some aspect, what are the weaknesses? My point is, the basic RPG design no longer exists at all and thus there is no argument for casters dealing more damage.

And here again, I will refer you to my mantra of "fix what's broken, don't break what isn't." Currently it's a combination of factors which makes some wizards as broken as they are... and again, the bigger problem is gear. Pretty much the only thing in the classic game that gives wizards high defenses is Stone Barrier (particularly the demon version), but I'm not really seeing anyone complain about demon Stone Barrier in this thread. Aside from that, and removing R9Sx gears from the picture, I guess I'm at a loss as to where your "comparable defenses" argument comes from.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

1.5m ribbons? Where do I find the transfer server option? But in it`s essence I dont argue bout venos not being able to do half the current 3-X bosses. Doesnt change the fact a friend of mine did farm higher tier TTs, including hard bosses, with his herc before they redid 3-X TTs. And at that point, APS was already main form of farming on older servers I suspect.

For melee class to solo wurlord, to really solo and not have alt cleric tagging along as BB *****, You either spark every single skill shot, which requires chi skills on 5aps sins and uncanny timing. And being honest, wurlord still hits like a truck w/o skillshots. Ape in 2-3 with buffs, I can set up spark macro with alt cleric on BB, otherwise it gets lot more annoying. These things arent facerolled with average sins and even average sins have far superior starting price compared to veno & herc. Average sins made great money only because of nirvana, which is now dead. And even before that casters had better version of the instance.

If casters really did have a better Nirvana, you'd have seen the sins whining about that long before now. You didn't hear a peep out of the APS crowd about Nirvana until NW, because Nirvana benefitted them above all others and they liked it that way.

As far as TT is concerned... most venos weren't able to do wurlord either (although I've seen one or two who could, and still can), nor could they do the 3-x bosses. You mention wurlord and ape, but what about those 3-x bosses that most venos could never do? The ones that are regularly farmed these days by APS people, which keep mats such as Skaidraid's Edges (your example mat) so low?

And since you bring up clerics... in this day and age, do you think the average aps person would have any qualms about abusing frost and getting an alt cleric to a level capable of doing BB in order to tag along for wurlord, etc. kills (and maybe an alt barb/bm for buffing)? Especially on a newer server like Archosaur where frost abuse is the rule rather than the exception. Either way, that's an advantage which wasn't around in 2009... and even if it was, BB isn't going to help a herc tank wurlord anyway.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Ribbons are completely special case though, there is absurd demand for them due NW and N3. Archosaur was at ~400k ribbons pre NW I believe, we jumped to 1.5m too and by xmas prices were back to ~700k. GBAs on other hand dont sell and as they are the other "expensive" mat of 3-1, discounting golds, its clear that when this unnatural demand of ribbons comes to an end, ribbons too will plummet back to where GBAs are currently(hard to sell for 400k).

I do remember times when GBAs were 5m a piece and 9X veno with a herc could solo GBA at that time. 2-3 Antennas were ~400k last I saw and as they started from ~1m, they with 40% retained value are likely the most preserved in value. But this is only how it`s on Archosaur, there isnt big coin/time ratio change from veno farming to current APS farming. If we account changes in gold price, venos made better gold/time in TT than current aps toons.

Only exception being 3-3 and possibly 3-2 due gold mats still selling. I peed honey on December 2x when arma dropped 2 Illusion Stones, the 15m chip cost ones. Due NW, springs too were at 1m a pop as absurd amounts of sins were getting N2 daggers. Even though golds still sell, the demand is growing smaller and springs are prolly back to 200k a pop by now.

Well, this is where our discussion will be impeded by price differences across servers... because I've spent a month or two on Archosaur and I'm well aware that you guys have very different markets than HT does... TT mats being no exception. I can honestly say that I've seen ribbons in AH, catshops and even in WC being sold for 1.5mil... you can say that nobody buys these mats, but I've seen them with such frequency that I doubt nobody is buying. Sure it might be a temporary thing, but I think my point stands; that if you're implying a tenfold increase in the number of runs required to make the same amount of profit, I think on the whole that you're overstating it.

I will say, though, that if the TT base armor craze ever does go away, we'll be in for more QQing from the APS crowd. You don't see any QQ from them about Nirvana anymore because TT has taken its place. If the TT gravy train were ever to dry up for them, where else would they go to make the profits that they do? :P

VKnightV - Lost City

Haila - Sanctuary wrote: »

I always get a headache at math classes b:cold
In other words i dont know what u talking about XD

in other words wnb admits he was FORCED to go aps to be wanted meaning HAX in pve
and if u dont true this re-read his thread.

he yet come up with a formula where non aps melee and aps can be same in dd in pve without going r9+++ yet again hax.

another note is how he think melee classes are dd when no description EVER said melee where design to DD.

that is all u need to know cos this is the the TRUE.


aps destroyed balance and that is that money or no money

VKnightV - Lost City

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

and they should lose it to for *** sake they hade there coin for two years nobady cares for aps nowdays its all about r9 now.

and i am still waiting for a formula for a non aps melee class to so what aps can do tho i belive they will never dare do one.

no r9 as aps never needed aps to do there nv there tt and cos wnb said how in hell would a melee class be ablle to compete with range dd and yes how a non aps melee gona do that.


b:laugh sarcasm

FaceRolI - Sanctuary

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

This was an excellent post, showing that even focusing on defense, magic attack (dph), and crit many casters can walk around with -40-50% channeling. They also can boist BM like defenses, and crits in the 20-30% range, again, similar to the HA classes.

standard style endgame wiz will be 3x chan, DPH/Defensive wiz will be 2x chan. some casters have chan on r999 pants and wrists so can be slightly higher, you will not be hitting 5x w/o sacrifices, by feasible I meant getting the gear to do so is easy (dont have to wait for -12+ rings), doesnt mean its a good idea.

/late response

Miugre - Heavens Tear

FaceRolI - Sanctuary wrote: »

standard style endgame wiz will be 3x chan, DPH/Defensive wiz will be 2x chan. some casters have chan on r999 pants and wrists so can be slightly higher, you will not be hitting 5x w/o sacrifices, by feasible I meant getting the gear to do so is easy (dont have to wait for -12+ rings), doesnt mean its a good idea.

/late response

This is actually a good, and probably under-represented point. As someone who certainly gets oneshot on my barb by a fair number of R9S3 casters in NW, I can certainly fathom the standard BM mindset on this issue. "OMG that wizzy oneshot me, QQ!" Well, did you see him channel the spell that oneshot you? Can you prove conclusively that he had 50 -chan bonuses and still had that ability? And even if he did, can you also prove that he's indestructible to your attacks?

I'd be willing to bet a lot of BMs QQ the minute they get oneshot by a wizard/psy/etc. without even considering the (relative) weaknesses of their build. You can meet a wizzy with insane defense. You can meet a wizzy with high -chan. And you can meet a wizzy that can oneshot you. Doesn't mean they're the same wizzy.

And this is assuming your BM has R9S3 himself, rather than having lesser gear in which case a wizzy could oneshot you with less power than he'd otherwise need.

Once again, kids, the moral of the story is: magic multipliers aren't what's broken, R9S3 is what's broken.

Sylvae - Sanctuary

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Once again, kids, the moral of the story is: magic multipliers aren't what's broken, R9S3 is what's broken.

Pretty sure that's what the thread is about. Earlier on, before Emperor tome and +100 stat from R9S3 the difference in multiplier wasn't as big an issue. But it is a compound of 2 different areas that the multipliers of caster vs. melee show up.

Non-caster multiplier being only 66% effectiveness per stat point means they receive less over-all boost from the stat bonus comparatively. This is exacerbated by the way caster mastery works vs. melee weapon mastery. While casters have their entire multiplier amped by their casting mastery, melee has theirs have a diminished % of their over-all multplier.

And while there is a noticeable difference now, the effects would of course worsen the more new gear is added with ever increasing attributes without revisiting the current way the multipliers are worked. Though it should be possible to swap the weapon masteries to be an over-all multiplier as well, which should work to prevent the gap widening.

Neodaystar - Sanctuary

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Neodaystar had a much better, clearer equation... that was dead wrong. Lets run his numbers as well.

He is right 500/150 does = 3.33 and 500/100 = 5 leading to a difference of 1.67 in the multiplier

Sadly that's only 1/2 of the equation he posted. Lets add some other numbers into those variables he used. For sake of argument let's max the masteries and give each player one buff.

attack damage = 1 + ( 500/ 150 ) + 90% + Sage Titan (40%)

attack damage = 1 + ( 500 / 100 ) + 25% + Sage Arcane Power (70%)

1st equation = 1 + 3.33 + 0.9 + 0.4 = 5.63
2nd equaton = 1 + 5 + 0.25 + 0.7 = 6.95

which gives us an actual difference 1.32.

Of course as mentioned earlier this simpler equation is wrong. I'm sure it wasn't meant to be a straight on accurate representation but as written it is at least misleading. The magic mastery uses full elemental damage as I explained before while the weapon mastery focuses on weapon attack. On top of this Refines must also be taken into account as they effect the damages through the physical and magical weapons differently. The buffs also work differently and proper formulas would have to display this in order to get a true correlation between the classes. Not to mention accuracy and criticals.

The equation you and I used are the same thing. I just omitted the numbers for the mastery and buff in order to closely analyses the portion of the equation that really matters, that is the factor dealing with attribute points. Since the OP's question in topic was about the 100 magic points used as opposed to the 150 points used by non casters. It is redundant and bias to use the buffs and mastery in the comparison because not every char is a sage with sage mastery or is sage buffed at all times. You only use it for sage and demon comparison.

Another reason why I left out the other factors is because the devs had probably set these mastery and buff parameters in a balance state to bring balance to all class's damage. However the factor that had unbalanced them is the 100 stat points given as a bonus by r999. So you can consider the master and buff factors as a constant in the equation if you are to talk about class.

Before r999 bonus, 500 attribute points to str/mag/dex was not easily achieved.

Back then it was
For casters 400/100 = 4
For non casters 400/150 = 2.66
Class Difference is 1.34

Now its:
For casters 500/100 = 5
For non casters 500/150 = 3.33
Class Difference is 1.67

Comparing 1.63 and 1.34, this is a difference of 33% weapon attack.
Clerics Spirit's Gift gives 70% magic attack
Barb Buff gives 40-50%

In other words, the r999 bonus stats automatically gives casters half of a clerics magic attack buff permanently (as a result of the attribute factor becoming unbalanced in the damage equation) ! Regardless of one being a sage or demon or what ever buff they have on.

VKnightV - Lost City

Sylvae - Sanctuary wrote: »

Pretty sure that's what the thread is about. Earlier on, before Emperor tome and +100 stat from R9S3 the difference in multiplier wasn't as big an issue. But it is a compound of 2 different areas that the multipliers of caster vs. melee show up.

Non-caster multiplier being only 66% effectiveness per stat point means they receive less over-all boost from the stat bonus comparatively. This is exacerbated by the way caster mastery works vs. melee weapon mastery. While casters have their entire multiplier amped by their casting mastery, melee has theirs have a diminished % of their over-all multplier.

And while there is a noticeable difference now, the effects would of course worsen the more new gear is added with ever increasing attributes without revisiting the current way the multipliers are worked. Though it should be possible to swap the weapon masteries to be an over-all multiplier as well, which should work to prevent the gap widening.

it dosent mean anything cos most of these crie have 200 dex on there stats wish shoudl go str.

do u see caster put on vit dex nope

minimum str and rest on mag

its nobady else foult but melee to divide stats as they did

WnbTank - Archosaur

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Yes you are right, I went back and fixed this after spending a great deal of time trying to figure out how we were looking at the same formula differently. After finally figuring out that 1 stood in for the damage of the weapon I went back and changed the damage modifier calculations accordingly. Not the way I would have written them but I suppose it works. Keep in mind the two damage equations were written as they were posted. I already knew they were wrong. Your equations above and the approach of using the 0.25 modifier after total damage would likely be more correct. Though this clears up the misunderstandings of the overall equation, it doesn't settle the issue that this is all just one part of a greater whole, the entire point of my previous posts. I never argued that mage damage modifiers for weapon stats wasn't greater than melee's, in fact I agreed with it. I argued that using it as a reason to nerf those coeficients was misleading and didn't take into account many of the other factors that impact overall damage and other classes abilities to counter it.

The way of using +25% modifier as last is really the only way of doing it. Reason for this is obvious, in order to deal 25% more damage, you have to have damage w/o mastery before multiplying them with 1.25. This can be dodged with associative law and multiplying the multiplier. One thing this doesnt account for is skill damage, those have to be 1.25 multiplied too as otherwise they wouldnt gain the 25% increase. Using 25% increase on multiplier doesnt happen in damage calculation PWI does I believe but it can be used there to compare total effect of part of the dmg calculation. If it was unclear what I meant, I believe it goes along these lines damage = ([Weapon damage, refines, shards, rings x multipliers] + skill damage) x 1.25 (mastery) x Crit x Attack levels.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

No, weapons do not refine the same, even among the same level and teir. Daggers don't get as much of a refine bonus as many of the other weapons for example while bows and other ranged weapons get considerably more. You do mention this but the factors don't remain the same. A quick comparison. S3 bow Jaden Emperors Defiance gets +37 for a 1 star D orb, S3 magic sword Sandy World gets +30 for the same Dorb and S3 Netherworld guidance daggers gets +22. That's 73% for daggers not 75% so even among different types of similar level gear this is different. and 2% can make a huge difference over the course of the long run. In a sense archers, a phys class, are the winners here. Other examples are that Unicorn Tragedies and Sprit of Justice, dual axes and pole axe respectively, also refine for +30 as does S3 Orb Budhha's Hatred so yes, these are the same. A quick example among R9 is the R9 Orb refines for +30 for 1 star while the R9 bow refines for +32, not as big a difference but still present and shows a different percentage difference than S3. Of course these differences grow much larger as we continue of the refining tree to the point where a +12 S3 bow refines for +1387 while an S3 magic sword refines for +1125while poor sins only get +825 on the S3 daggers, a singnifigant difference. This further emphasizes my point that there are other factors in play besides the damage coeficients from stat points, and these factors should be taken into account when arguing about the damage casters create over melees and other physicals.

I didnt think of checking bows, seems like they refine higher. But this is really simple matter to clarify. We can change the sage sin into sage archer easily, just adding another 60% of weapon damage(BA). 5.63 + 0.6 = 6.23

Relative difference between multipliers ( 8.375 - 6.23 ) / 6.23 x 100% = 34.4%

( 1387(bow) - 1125 (magic wep) ) / 1125 x 100% = 23.3%

Using magic sword gain as norm we get 100% or 1. Or more like 1 x 1 = 1

100% - 34.4% = 65.6% and 100% + 23.3% = 123.3%

0.656 x 1.233 = 0.81 or 81%.

100% - 81% = 19%

Putting it simple, caster gains 19% more from refines than archer, despite bow refining better.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

*edit* As for XXX% weapon damage modifier (from sparks I'm assuming) you are right. Casters do get more, some even get minus chanelling on top of that, not all do. But melee classes also get different bonuses and increase in attack speed is one of them. However where you go wrong is assuming weapon damage = magic damage for casters, it does but they don't get their mastery bonus on top of that. Remember melees masteries go off of weapon damage, increase this and the mastery comes into a play as well. Creating a larger spark bonus than for casters whos masteries go off of total damage. The increase of weapon damage for casters does come into play with the mastery bonus but only after total damage is calculated. This is also ignoring the different ratios at which classes build chi, which can also be a factor over the course of calculating damage output.*edit*

I was talking bout what I thought was obvious detail to a caster. Lets quote wizzie gush and bold relevant part:

"Required Cultivation　Spiritual Initiate
Force a powerful water column to spew up from the
ground, dealing base magic damage, 55% of weapon damage,
and 55.0 damage as Water damage.
Has a 65% chance to slow the target by 40% for 5.3 seconds."

As casters have higher refine rates than non casters `cept for the bows from last paragraph. Well have plain higher damage than non casters, they gain more per each % point. Not forgetting trend where casters have higher weapon damage modifiers than non casters, non casters dont really have any. Archer for example has 6 skills (Blood Vow, Take Aim, Deadly Shot, BoA, Whisper Shot & Arrow Inferno[uses weird term gear attack, rings?]). Compared to Wizard which has it on basically every offensive skill, might of been 1 or 2 where it didnt appear.

But no, you are again incorrect. Spark works as following, using same toons we has earlier.

Sage Psy

X = 1 + 5 + 0.7 + 7 = 13.7
Y = 13.7 + 0.25 x 13.7 = 17.125

Sage Sin

X = 1 + 3.33 + 0.9 + 0.4 + 5 = 10.63

Relative difference is now:

( 17.125 - 10.63 ) / 10.63 = 61.1%

After googling I found spark+++ gave 700% more magic attack.

For non casters it was 500% physical attack.

This isnt weapon attack but ultimately very similar. This means also rings gets bonus. Though I would find it interesting there are talk bout of weapon attack in descriptions also, I doubt PWI would create overly complicated damage calculation. I assume it`s simply translation weirdness and even if it was that there are both magic attack(with rings) & weapon attack (w/o rings), it wouldnt make much of a difference relatively. Either way, the sins of bout doubling their DPH sounds right trough my own personal experience and I would assume magic attack would work along the same lines.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I never said accepting gear requirments wasn't relevant, only that by including it in the math while focusing only on the damage differences from the stat coeficeints was a flawed approach. Combos are something I brought up earlier but didn't want to elaborate on because it indeed does get messy, as any proper damage formula will eventually do. Yes there are a HUGE variety of combo bonuses from skills alone and that's not factoring in other bonuses from weapons, gems, and armor. Yes calculating APS is easy. But APS is not the only method of damage dealing available to melees, they are capable of combos to and in fact use them quite often. Given the fact their overall channel times are less they also tend to be able to chain together more combos over a set amount of time. Some of these combos don't do damage, but instead create other variables that need to be taken into account along with damage coeficients when it comes to deciding overall balance.

While making pretty equations on theory level is simple, they have to be applied to real world or PWI in this case. While in theory gear requirements dont matter, in reality they do and not accounting for how some classes have ultimately less points available for damage will certainly affect the damage they are dealing.

If we talk bout dps on high tier aps toons? The combos they use and which offer best dps are fairly well known and ultimately quite easily calculated. Olblaze and his genie thread is great example of this regarding sins.

And really, shorter bursts I would suspect casters get really close. I know R9+12 DoT psy held aggro off me in WS cannonfist. Granted I started with purge bow to purge the thing(didnt take long) and I only had N3 + 10. Few things to account for though. First of all, N3 with interval has higher dps than R9 on similar refine. For a fact my sin dealt ultimately the same damage in CoA(same spot, same orbs, 1 spark difference when bosses disappeared) compared to R9+12 DoT sin. One thing Im not sure of if I had +11 on daggers by that time, lets assume I did.

My sin as +10 would of dealt fairly close the dps R9 +12 DoT sin would of, though shorter periods of time are more prone to lucky/unlucky zerks. The psy in question was R9+12 DoT. While my own gear, wasnt on same level as his, my sins gear could perform on level comparable to gear the psy was wearing. If aps was as broken in short bursts as you seem to think, there would of been no question if I had the aggro despite starting later, granted who has the aggro isnt same as who has highest dps. Obviously casters cant generate similar chi and keep up after few sparks but that really is a difference of chi gain, not dps. Im fairly certain aps also deals more dps but the difference is nowhere near what you think it is.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

For example venos do not get the same damage modifier per MAG point as other caster classes. So... in a sense not all casters get that MAG/100 coefficient b:surrender They do get higher phys damage bonuses per STR point and a slightly higher bonus to Acc and evade. This is because veno is a duel class and was designed so that neither of its forms could compare to the possible damage of other classes. This is made up for by the addition of the pet, which, when combined brings their damage into line with others. Of course current pets are a joke compared to the state of the game now, but, I'm interested to see how the new formulas for them will play into the venos overall damage. To keep it simple, and use the venos damage quotient in a new formula to determine its weapon damage vs other classes would be interesting but it wouldn't tell us actual damage. 60% of the time I can throw a debuff on that gives me and my pet an additional 30% damage for sage, or we can take it father and say I can throw a debuff 86% of the time for 25% extra damage with Demon. I alreadly mentioned the 200% melee mastery (though wood is still 25%) and how that also influences damage rolls. Other classes have skills that increase damage as well or at least open ways to do more. All in all that's a lot more math than simply throwing up (weapon + coefficient + weapon mastry + weap buff) + phys dam buff or (weapon + coefficient ) + mag buff + mag mastery, and still doesn't account for criticals or att/def levels which do not equal eachother on S3 or R9RR gear. On top of that one would have to run both equations for venos, and then add overall pet damage to each b:sweat

Actually venos indeed have 100%/100mag ratio. After playing with pwicalc and assuming its right, I came to following conclusions. On level 100 veno with clean N3 sword deals 97.5% of the damage other magic classes do, no buffs whatsoever. I tested this with 300 and 400 mag, both came with 97.5%. Then I went and put on level one magic sword, assuming its the TW reward one, with stat points on flat 5 for everything and level 1. On this occasion all magic classes were the same. Putting level to 100, everything else unchanged there was again difference between veno and other magic classes. We can easily conclude difference is result of level up bonuses, not any multipliers whatsoever.

Only leveling to 100 with no added stats, we have veno dealing 90.1% of damage other casters. Adding mag from 5 to 500 makes no difference, which tells us following. Either level up bonus gives multiplier on mag values, which would keep them relatively balanced. 100 / 50 = [100 / 10] / [50 / 10 ].

This cant be the case though as we have N3 sword with 2.5% difference. Only thing which makes sense is level up bonus being flat weapon damage as the higher weapons have higher weapon damages, thus same increase is relatively smaller with higher weapon, explaining this difference.

And this is great point to take wep off calc, would of saved time had I done it earlier <.<. No weapon and 100 mag (1 + 100/100 = 2 multiplier) on level 1 for veno is 2 and on other casters its 2. On level 100 numbers are 121 and 200. As numbers are multiplied to 200% of base value, really veno has 60.5 flat magic damage from levels on level 100 and other casters 100. Per level this is 0.6 & 1. Higher refines, shards, rings and weapons make this difference fairly irrelevant. This of course, if we consider PWIcalc as fact. But as far as I know, its the next best thing after game itself.

But to stop derailing. Honestly, you make it seem like its hard to determine aps dps accounting skills/etc. Its still quite easy, Olblaze has thread on sin subforums counting best genie & skill combinations for dps. Accounting non aps non casters is quite another thing though but they really arent problem regarding this. By what I mean they are weaker than aps players and their weakness can be no argument for defending casters advantage regarding dps.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Mystics would also be interesting, they do get the same MAG/100 modifier (though lack the other bonuses) while having multiple pets for different battlefield purposes and different area buffs with their plants. Anyway as I've said, damage is not based solely on coeficients, and balance is based on even more than that. If you change the MAG coeficeitns you would have to change the VIT STR and DEX coeficients too. All correlate to form what is a player character and focusing on one while ingnoring others is why I've kept responding to you on this thread. Hopefully I'm done with this argument. I only made this post to acknowledge that I had to correct my math above.

Hitting too early on send, oh well. I have given several facts regarding how the other things regarding damage, outside of multiplier, are also favoring casters. Only thing casters really lack in is crit and interval between skills/attacks.

WnbTank - Archosaur

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

When you say the multiplier has always been broken... do you want to follow up on that, or am I to assume this is just your opinion? Put a BM and a cleric in classic gear (let's say TT99)... from a theoretical perspective, is the cleric more broken, and why? Or is this all about wizards, to you?

Yes, it is my opinion. The casters were balanced with higher skill damages compared to non casters, while having higher stat point multiplier. Lets assume this was done right aka classes were balanced in reality with TT99 gear. When gear upgrades, casters start to gain relatively more damage than non casters from upgrades. Which we can call unbalanced or broken.

If on other hand casters had the same multiplier but higher skill damages to balance the lower damage than before for lower gears. This too, would of been balanced. But instead with gear upgrades, casters wouldnt gain relatively more damage. One could argue casters would gain relatively less when looking at full damage and they would be right. If casters have high base skill damages, increase from gear/stat points would be relatively less than for non casters who have smaller base skill damages, as long as both gain the same damage. But I believe it would of been much fairer as upgrading gear would of been closer to equally rewarding.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

And here again, I will refer you to my mantra of "fix what's broken, don't break what isn't." Currently it's a combination of factors which makes some wizards as broken as they are... and again, the bigger problem is gear. Pretty much the only thing in the classic game that gives wizards high defenses is Stone Barrier (particularly the demon version), but I'm not really seeing anyone complain about demon Stone Barrier in this thread. Aside from that, and removing R9Sx gears from the picture, I guess I'm at a loss as to where your "comparable defenses" argument comes from.

It is in fact that OP endgame, talking bout R999 +12 for sage barb in tiger and demon wizard, both fully buffed, both classes have fairly equal effective health on their weaker defenses. With the lack of gear options in pwicalc, Id say comparable, not equal but taking barb to +11 refines and Id bet on wizzie having more effective health against physical than barb against elemental.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If casters really did have a better Nirvana, you'd have seen the sins whining about that long before now. You didn't hear a peep out of the APS crowd about Nirvana until NW, because Nirvana benefitted them above all others and they liked it that way.

Casters had more drops per run, which nobody is going to argue. The casters I took into normal vana during 2x wondered how little drops we get per run. Caster vana is plain better for rewards. Casters needed to do their BHs for talismans and they got 1 from Morai. I am pretty sure BH1 also gave key on top of 3 free ones but I remember guildie wizzie complaining bout not having enough keys, *Shrugs*.

Now the difference in farming ultimately is casters doing 3 runs daily, aps toons farming their ***** of during 2x. Normal vana drops of 4 from last boss + 10 boxes. 2 raps + 8 cannies would of been good run during 2x. From what I heard on vent, casters were getting similar or better drops during normal drops as normal vana gave during 2x. It might of been intentional to counter aps farming during 2x but during 2x casters got absurd amounts of crystals per run, compared to oh so OP aps toons.

Ultimately difference is in few runs/day vs weekend spamming vana. Caster argument is aps spamming as much as they want vs talismans. Both instances are limited with keys and there are limits you can get each day. I could swear doing BHs and old man totaled into 4 keys, which would indeed be 1 more than talismans, but now that I think of, with multiple 10X toons, people used own alts as openers to hit 1/1 key/run ratio for their mains.

But these points were actually pointed to casters, whom, while having the better instance, QQd how aps did runs faster and made more coins/hour. With vana design it shouldnt be coins/hour but coins/keys, where caster vana was superior.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

As far as TT is concerned... most venos weren't able to do wurlord either (although I've seen one or two who could, and still can), nor could they do the 3-x bosses. You mention wurlord and ape, but what about those 3-x bosses that most venos could never do? The ones that are regularly farmed these days by APS people, which keep mats such as Skaidraid's Edges (your example mat) so low?

And since you bring up clerics... in this day and age, do you think the average aps person would have any qualms about abusing frost and getting an alt cleric to a level capable of doing BB in order to tag along for wurlord, etc. kills (and maybe an alt barb/bm for buffing)? Especially on a newer server like Archosaur where frost abuse is the rule rather than the exception. Either way, that's an advantage which wasn't around in 2009... and even if it was, BB isn't going to help a herc tank wurlord anyway.

Oh I have my own alt cleric, 75 for herbs and alt BM with 10 bell. A veno bramble is too short, maybe I should work on seeker next for the buff? Just kidding but you are correct, it is really easy to abuse FC for alts to utilize for farming. Granted cleric needs to be geared for wurlord to tank 1 magic hit inside BB, unless you want to pull it quite far. Then again it took me less than hour to farm full TT70 set and have fair bit of leftover mats.

I myself farm 2-3 rarely for 3 reasons. Its so damn long and I want cleric for wurlord, ape and astral. You also need to have effing squadmember in range to summon dog aka you either gear cleric highly to pass mobs between horse and ape or you clear the way for lowbie. Thirdly, handling the addons of AE is pain, least for my gear. Suppose sins with higher defenses have it easier but I wouldnt consider almost 11k hp barb buffed completely terrible either.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Well, this is where our discussion will be impeded by price differences across servers... because I've spent a month or two on Archosaur and I'm well aware that you guys have very different markets than HT does... TT mats being no exception. I can honestly say that I've seen ribbons in AH, catshops and even in WC being sold for 1.5mil... you can say that nobody buys these mats, but I've seen them with such frequency that I doubt nobody is buying. Sure it might be a temporary thing, but I think my point stands; that if you're implying a tenfold increase in the number of runs required to make the same amount of profit, I think on the whole that you're overstating it.

I will say, though, that if the TT base armor craze ever does go away, we'll be in for more QQing from the APS crowd. You don't see any QQ from them about Nirvana anymore because TT has taken its place. If the TT gravy train were ever to dry up for them, where else would they go to make the profits that they do? :P

Well my comp has been broken since Xmas(Trying to fix it I realized never again to buy shop built comp, literally changed all parts and waiting on last ones atm) and thus I really refer to Xmas times with mat prices. It was during 2x but I would of thought I wasnt the only heavy 3-1 spammer on server. First they were indeed 1.5m but quickly prices dropped to 1m. After while they fell under that, 700k or so was the price when my comp decided he work no more. They may have shifted but I cant understand ribbons being anywhere near 1.5m atm.

VKnightV - Lost City

nv3 is cheap and it only mean that aps is hax.



can we kill this thread as this barb always comparing his cheap gear to the most expensive gear and think of them as equal.

when its r9s3 +12 vs r9vs3 +12 not nv3 +10 and nv +10 is **** in comparasion.

cost wise them gear are not the same either.

so make equal gear comparasion for god sake not stupd numbers

ok ya you never hade r9 but then you cant compare.....


someone shoot this barb plz his logic is all but funy b:shutup

VKnightV - Lost City

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

---

---

noob barb thinks
I know R9+12 DoT psy held aggro off me in WS cannonfist. Granted I started with purge bow to purge the thing(didnt take long) and I only had N3 + 10. Few things to account for though.

---

me thinks nope
ur no where near a balanced amount of investment so your not sopused to be close to his damage dps or dph. i call it balance.

---

noob barb thinks
My sin as +10 would of dealt fairly close the dps R9 +12 DoT sin would of, though shorter periods of time are more prone to lucky/unlucky zerks.

---

me thinks nope

ur not sopused to be close to someone putting so many more 0000 in there toon
r9 is sopused to be op but cos aps is hax ya **** balance right.

---

noob barb thinks

Hitting too early on send, oh well. I have given several facts regarding how the other things regarding damage, outside of multiplier, are also favoring casters. Only thing casters really lack in is crit and interval between skills/attacks.

---

me thinks nope


and when are you gona admit aps favored melee way to much to be just part of game
i never know a singel 4aps before aps show up only 3 aps.

VKnightV - Lost City

ty for making it so easy to show you what a real mess you really are.

with ur own thread and the way u descrive urself its so easy to show that u dont know what ur talking about.

comparing a nv3 +10 sin vs a full r9 +12 dot psy lool to damn funy.

and if u hated aps soo much that u was forced to reroll why are you now defending it so much.

just admit u loved being hax.

its not to late b:chuckle

VKnightV - Lost City

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

I

I rolled barb in first place to pull cata, to tank so I had easier time to get in squads. I didnt like it how APS forced me to restat into claws on my barb.




tada why u defend aps when bu hu u was FORCED

Sylvae - Sanctuary

VKnightV - Lost City wrote: »

---

me thinks nope


and when are you gona admit aps favored melee way to much to be just part of game
i never know a singel 4aps before aps show up only 3 aps.

To be fair, the BMs were mostly Axetards back then. Min dex, missed everything, and utterly incompetent at their class. And even when they switched, the morons went LA ornies to showcase just how stupid they were. The actually competent BMs were always going for LA wrist and boots with HA ornies. The only reason that changed, was because of later updates which made it possible to add MDef ornies.

Again, we have no respect for the moron BMs you are referring to. It's why I have the 2 most incompetent BM posters in my BMs signature: no reason to let their incompetence be forgotten, no matter how much they edit their posts.

VKnightV - Lost City

Sylvae - Sanctuary wrote: »

To be fair, the BMs were mostly Axetards back then. Min dex, missed everything, and utterly incompetent at their class. And even when they switched, the morons went LA ornies to showcase just how stupid they were. The actually competent BMs were always going for LA wrist and boots with HA ornies. The only reason that changed, was because of later updates which made it possible to add MDef ornies.

Again, we have no respect for the moron BMs you are referring to. It's why I have the 2 most incompetent BM posters in my BMs signature: no reason to let their incompetence be forgotten, no matter how much they edit their posts.

but unless they admit they hade to change and it was not just cos they wanted to dd cos nobady rolled bm to DD.

bm was support and barb was cata there was no dd EGO and only come with pack to reroll aps cos its HAX.

i wont budge for this very reason

and give me a break about chi cos all classes except sin have issue with chi or you gona give everyone constant chi.

and now they cry about damage bha always qq

WnbTank - Archosaur

VKnightV - Lost City wrote: »

nv3 is cheap and it only mean that aps is hax.



can we kill this thread as this barb always comparing his cheap gear to the most expensive gear and think of them as equal.

when its r9s3 +12 vs r9vs3 +12 not nv3 +10 and nv +10 is **** in comparasion.

cost wise them gear are not the same either.

so make equal gear comparasion for god sake not stupd numbers

ok ya you never hade r9 but then you cant compare.....


someone shoot this barb plz his logic is all but funy b:shutup

My dear fool, if you cant comprehend simple mechanics in this game, do us all a favor and just shut up.

N3 > R9, it`s only later recasts of R9 weapon which out perform N3 dps wise. This is true for casters, archers and sins. Barb, BM and seeker are only classes where zerk seems superior from PvE standpoint. R9 is and was better PvP gear due procs, though N3 likely was superior for casters as they didnt have a proc.

But for PvE sins, the important facts are. 40 attack levels on N3, 30 on R9, -int on N3 and thus 5aps vs 4aps of R9. GoF procs bout 20% of the time. 100% damage increase 20% of the time is 1 x 0.2 = 0.2 multiplier. Putting this in light of aps 4 x 1.2 = 4.8 < 5. N3 also has marginally less base damage but refines bit better.

This obviously is only regarding stationary sparked dps, taking off spark made R9 better weapon for dps I believe. When it comes to dps, defensive stats or procs that have major impact in PvP, are discounted and only applied if they have effect on dps.

Point being, if my "cheapass" gear performs at the level of R9+12 daggers for sparked dps, why shouldnt it be example? This comparison is and has always been regarding dps, R9 is superior in some other aspects, which were irrelevant in the example I gave. Or are you saying R9+12 sin is undergeared compared to R9+12 psy?

This is possible because N3 is higher tier of farmable gear than R9 is of bought gear. R999 mops the floor with N3 but as N3 became available quicker, most heavy CSers were still R9 by the time I was N3+10 or even +11.

But R9 wasnt devalued like R8 was and the argument bout costs is silly because of this. Ultimately on clean gear the upgrade from R9 to R999 doesnt cost much and lot of the new OP gear costs are in R9 set and as it already has 2 steps forward, f2p players gear really should be on par with it. Otherwise its plain impossible to even design new endgame instances anymore as major part of playerbase cant afford somewhat competent gear --> Massive gear gap, any challenging instance for CSers would of been near enough impossible for others. Other option would of been doing same to R9 they did for R8, I believe path taken was a lot more fairer.

Ps. If you cant understand this, it really isnt my problem.

VKnightV - Lost City

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

I think this is ultimately PvE build vs PvP build, least among barbs. I dont think every build should be absolutely equal on everything. APS

so aps should not be equal inb:shutup

taken from ur own thread

VKnightV - Lost City

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Obviously R999 is broken but it should be equal between classes. R999 shouldnt create imbalance between equally geared players as it is doing right now.

VKnightV - Lost City

this really show what a hicocrite u really are

you like ur hax but dont like it when someone else find there own hax gear

WnbTank - Archosaur

I pity you, I really do if that is what you truly believe.

If you simply dont understand what I mean, I really cant help you with that.

VKnightV - Lost City

i dont pity ppl who abuse glitches or mechanism to there own advantage and qq when a new one shows up.

i call it karma

VKnightV - Lost City

i am stil lwaiting for a formula wish is as cheap as aps to farm pve wish u think dosent matter.

don tworry i know ur nothing but a troll

ovenusarmanio

I get that R999 is maybe too much in favor of the casters and I absolutely agree with that. But It's only one tiny subset of gear and players that it's a problem. So would it not make more sense to change the stat values on the problem gear to account for the higher damage multiplier instead of nerfing everyone from level 1 to 100. You can't make any exceptions when you're talking about changing the way a class works and you have to take into account all the ways it will be used when you do that. So yes, bosses become a huge freaking deal. And so do elite mobs, So do instances, so do all things PvE. Because you're messing the the way an entire group of classes work. Clerics for example already have some of the worst damage in the game, is the multiplier really that unfair for them in early game, mid game, anything Rank 8 or below? Because that's the majority of players across all the different versions of the game, some of which have hardly any rank 9 players at all.

Defensively, on the whole, heavy armor has more defense. In addition, non-casters get more HP per vit. Casters are squishier, but hit harder to make up for it. That's a pretty classic RPG setup used on many, many, many games. Would there be any justification at all for changing that if you ignore the small subset of players who have fully refined, fully sharded end-game gear and instead look at everyone else?

VKnightV - Lost City

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

I get that R999 is maybe too much in favor of the casters and I absolutely agree with that. But It's only one tiny subset of gear and players that it's a problem. So would it not make more sense to change the stat values on the problem gear to account for the higher damage multiplier instead of nerfing everyone from level 1 to 100. You can't make any exceptions when you're talking about changing the way a class works and you have to take into account all the ways it will be used when you do that. So yes, bosses become a huge freaking deal. And so do elite mobs, So do instances, so do all things PvE. Because you're messing the the way an entire group of classes work. Clerics for example already have some of the worst damage in the game, is the multiplier really that unfair for them in early game, mid game, anything Rank 8 or below? Because that's the majority of players across all the different versions of the game, some of which have hardly any rank 9 players at all.

Defensively, on the whole, heavy armor has more defense. In addition, non-casters get more HP per vit. Casters are squishier, but hit harder to make up for it. That's a pretty classic RPG setup used on many, many, many games. Would there be any justification at all for changing that if you ignore the small subset of players who have fully refined, fully sharded end-game gear and instead look at everyone else?

but why are you even GIVINg in to these clowns when they hade a whole two years to feel like kings in pve to harvest coin for there current gear.

aside from nv tt was still and still is diminated why aps

if we were to say put a cooldown on spark or remove chi ganing from spark eruption wont they qq.

they dont deserv any compasion when we got non back from them

there moto was if you dont like it JOIN US so reroll a caster for pvp

VKnightV - Lost City

the fameus fist bm class say it all ehum i mean bm class


Blademaster

Specializing in melee combat, these damage-dealers come from a long line of seasoned warriors. They are also famous for being a strong solo class after level 60. Finally, Blademasters are the kings of status effects, specifically in terms of stuns.

They are also famous for being a strong solo class after level 60. Finally, Blademasters are the kings of status effects, specifically in terms of stuns. There are two primary stat builds that players use with Blademasters: Heavy strength build in order to wear heavy armor, or a mix between strength and dexterity while wearing light armor which has a better mix of magical and physical defense.

Type

Tank, Melee Physical Damage Dealer

Weapon

Dual Swords, Dual Blades, Blades, Swords, Scythes, Spears, Clubs, Poleaxes, Sledgehammers, Dual Hand Axe, Dual Hammers, Fist Weapons




yes i agree bm are great dd but where it say fist as there big main weapon.